November 10, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode, Tom Jacobs, clinician and business owner shares his experiences of: • Balancing multiple professional roles, including running a private practice, teaching, and charity work • Transitioning from the NHS to entrepreneurship • Building a thriving team culture • Navigating the challenges of work-life balance with a young family Tom offers valuable insights on: • The importance of purpose in career choices • Effective delegation and leadership strategies • Creating a positive workplace environment • The impact of personal values on professional life More from Jo at mehab.co.uk
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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(00:28):
Hello and welcome to You Matter.In this episode, I'm talking to
physiotherapist Tom Jacobs, who is still a practicing physio but
also owns a couple of physio clinics and runs an FCP service
and lots of other things which he's going to describe to you in
the introduction. But the reason I wanted to talk
to Tom was really on the broad subject of well-being with those
(00:52):
various hats and the the two sides of the fence that he sits
on, both as a clinician and someone who manages clinicians.
You'll see when you listen to the episode where you will hear
in the episode that we we cover a lot of Grant and dip into lots
of different philosophies and things outside the clinical
(01:14):
world and inside it. So I really hope you enjoy the
conversation. I think it will have relevance
whether you are whether you wearany of those hats, whether
you're a clinician working in NHS or private sector, whether
you work for somebody else and indeed whether you manage other
people. So sit back and enjoy the
conversation and I'll be back atthe end.
(01:37):
Hello and welcome to the next edition of You Matter Where.
I'm very pleased to welcome physiotherapist and clinic owner
Tom Jacobs. Hi, Tom.
Hi, Joe. Hi, so before I bring people on
there, I often have a quick chatto them and make sure I've got
all the details of the various things that they do correct.
(01:57):
And the thing about Tom is there's quite a lot of them.
And as we started adding to the list, I said, do you know what,
Tom? I'm just going to let you
introduce yourself and explain the many things that you do.
So straight away over to you, Tom.
Please let people know what you're up to.
Great. So thanks for having me on the
podcast, Joe, to support what you're doing, I guess I'd do
(02:20):
several main jobs. My most important job I think is
running a practice. 7 physios and three massage therapists.
Private practice in Oxfordshire based predominantly on one site
in a big commercial gym space where we have treatment rooms
and a pool and different things.Really nice facility.
(02:44):
Then we also have an FCP serviceprovision across three different
GP surgeries. We have contracts with three
different GP surgeries within the the county.
So we are like a small medium sized operation, I guess all
based in one county and I do three to four days clinical and
(03:04):
the rest non clinical. Most of that is managing those
two main operations. And then I have a little bit of
other stuff that takes up a verysmall amount of my time like
teaching. I do a little bit of visitor
teaching, lecturing on the Oxford Brookes physio courses.
I do a bit of teaching for the GP trainees in Oxfordshire,
(03:26):
that's the Oxford Deanery, so upat the John Maccliffe Hospital
in Oxfordshire and that's basically teaching the people
who doctors who are becoming GPS.
They go through a three-year training programme and I teach
them on time limited MSK assessments in primary care.
I do a little bit of teaching onother topics.
I've done some lecturing on and ACL injury prevention at the
(03:50):
British Orthopaedic Association and the Kids Knee Conference,
which was a nice big international conference, great
fun. And that's in my role as a
trustee of a charity called Power Up to Play, which was
launched about four years ago with myself and a bunch of other
clinicians, orthopods and sportsmedic doctors in Oxfordshire,
and now is a national organization.
(04:11):
We've got a bunch of different physios who are volunteers and
and ambassadors on that programme, which is all about
preventing ACL injuries in younger the younger population.
So that's all the different hats.
Quite a lot of hats from our conversation when we met in the
(04:33):
summer, Tom, I know that there'squite a lot going on personally
as well. You're a dad of young kids,
aren't you? And there was a house move being
mentioned. I don't know if anything else
has been added to that personal list since we met, but fair to
say there's quite a lot going on.
There's a lot. Yeah, and although it's a lot,
(04:54):
there's probably people listening with similar stories.
And you know, I think physio is one of those professions, isn't
it, where it's quite easy to addto lots of different strands in
and, and, and keep adding and keep adding, probably because we
level the things we do. But you can end up with quite an
extensive portfolio. So Tom does that.
(05:17):
How does all that relate to yourwell-being, positively or
negatively? The fact that you do all these
different things. I don't think I I've ever chosen
to do lots of things for the sake of doing lots of things.
And I think the trap of falling into a presented opportunity and
(05:38):
therefore just taking a presented opportunity that comes
up, someone emails you, someone calls you and say, oh, this is a
cool idea. Should we do this?
It is is something that is a real danger for certain people.
I'm certainly a bit of a yes manand an over optimist.
Most entrepreneurs are optimists.
Otherwise you would never do it.But I, I think that is a danger
(06:02):
that I, I'm cognizant of and I'malways on the, the lookout for
to think, OK, is this something that is the right thing to be
doing? So what's been a real help for
me is you'll, you'll like to hear this Joe, is some coaching
because stripping things back towhy do you do what you do?
(06:24):
But also business mentorship hasbeen good for me because I've
been able to then think what is the strategy longer term, bigger
term, and do the things that we're thinking to get involved
in, fulfil a specific need either for the business or for
the individuals in that business.
So that's really helped me from the avoid the pitfalls of just
(06:47):
going, yeah, this is cool, let'sdo another thing because I
really don't buy into that at all.
Unless it's serving a purpose, either financially from a
business perspective, or it's fulfilling a need which we as
humans or individuals have, thenyou should not be doing it.
(07:08):
And I know that's probably a bitrich going from someone who's
doing clearly loads of things. But when I sit back and look at
each of those individuals, I cangive you an example.
I feel that then they need to beadding, adding something.
For example with the FCP services, if we hadn't have set
(07:29):
those up pre COVID, I think we would have possibly gone
bankrupting COVID. So we have contract contractual
obligations to fulfil and whether or not the services were
being made use of or not, whether patients were filling
the list or not, we had a financial income based on income
(07:50):
which is coming in at the end ofthe month regardless delivered
on our side of the of the contracts.
So sending in our clinicians on these days, then we were able to
then secure ourselves a baselineincome, which in the time since
then has given us a buffer to manage financial risk and
financial insecurity, which has meant that we thought, right,
(08:15):
well, even though per hour of physical activity time or
business time, it doesn't earn as much as you would do if you
were running a busy clinic. It's a reason to be.
So that's a business reason. And then for example, let's take
the teaching, you know, why would I be involved in teaching?
It's not exactly that the highest paid activity that one
could find if you're looking at it purely from a financial
(08:38):
perspective. But I don't see it that way.
It is something that I've alwaysenjoyed doing, even from when I
was a third year student and teaching the first years or you
know, one of my younger siblingswith their maths homework.
I've always loved it. And I, I considered very closely
whether to go straight into teaching after I qualified and
(08:59):
then decided against doing that.But it's always been something
that's been in the back of my mind is a passion for doing
something that really gives me value.
And I think, wow, I really enjoyed having that receptivity
and the feedback from the peopleI've been teaching.
It gives me something here on the inside that lifts 1, I
(09:21):
think. And we've all got different
attributes and different things that give us value in in our
professional lives. And that's something that has
added value for me. Yeah.
So there's another, another strand to your filters there.
I think I've heard, you know, you talked about things that are
financially a good idea, things that benefit the people that
(09:46):
work for you or the business itself.
And then there's this aspect of does it fulfil you?
Does it give you enjoyment outside of the financial aspect?
And obviously there's this sweetspot sometimes where we find the
things that fit all of those 3, isn't there?
But yeah, I think that that lastone's really important.
And I remember when we spoke in the summer, Tom, you, you know,
(10:09):
then you were talking about various things you're up to.
And an obvious, very simple, straightforward coaching
question for me was why? Why are you doing all of this?
And I do remember your answer very clearly, and I'd love it if
you share what you said to me when I asked you that.
Yeah, good question. I know I'm starting to remember
now what I, what I said, but I'msure it was something along the
lines of I was in the NHS for seven years in a very, my last
(10:38):
role was, was a really dynamic team who I loved spending time
with in an orthopaedic hospital.So I remember asking myself why
would I want to leave that? And it was something I wrestled
over and it was eventually my wife had given me the kit to
take a plunge into something unknown.
At the time. I don't think I saw it very
(11:02):
clearly. If I'm perfectly honest, it was
it came down to financial reasons.
So my wife was on maternity leave at the time with an
American company doing accounts,some accounts role.
And we'd had our first baby and we didn't really have quite
(11:22):
enough to meet the mortgage and the the payments that we needed.
And I was doing private work on the side.
And it led to one thing I've told.
So it's a financial decision andit you could say my big raison
d'etre at that point was I need to provide for my new baby and
(11:42):
for my literally. I.
Remember those days, It's a verysort of like suddenly you become
very much awakened. Not for what I enjoy doing.
I like doing at work what I enjoy doing, which is what I was
thinking to up until that point,lying in the sand.
Suddenly it was like I must provide and other people have
those, those Seminole moments earlier in life.
(12:03):
I didn't. I it came with me all at once.
So that was definitely my reasonat the time.
But Fast forward to today is much more nuanced than that.
Actually, I think almost all of us, the reason, the baseline
reason is that we need to we need to earn a living, we need
(12:26):
to financially support ourselves, of course, But there
is a lot more to it than that. And we're lucky enough, many of
us to work in a field or a profession where we get huge
opportunities, breadth of opportunities and a chance for
adding meaning, adding value, which you wouldn't get if you
were working in a, in a, in another role.
(12:47):
And I remember being the idea of, of, of a nightmare for me as
a job, as a career. I remember thinking it was very
clear at the age of probably 15 was going and sitting in an
office and working on their own computer and going up and it
didn't. I didn't care if someone paid me
£300,000 I I would hate it. So I think my my purpose if you
(13:14):
like. Now after ending up gradually
over time in a position where I I'm responsible for medium sized
team, quite a bunch of people with mixed backgrounds and
interests. And they have different things
that give them value, different things that are important to
(13:34):
them. Some of them have children, some
of them don't. Some are really career
orientated, some are really not.And that all means different
things to different people. And as much as I've really loved
interacting with other human beings who have patience and
picking the lot on this individual, you know, you all
know what that's like. I still get excited now, which
(13:55):
is probably the only reason I still do clinical work.
If there's a new patient in the waiting room, I'm kind of really
excited. I'm going to go and meet with
them, bring them in and unpick this lock.
And I, I still love that almost like human psychology element to
it. It still gives me a gig.
And if they don't walk out of the room going, I'm so pleased I
(14:15):
came today that I, I would be disappointed.
So I, I do find kind of getting under the skin of another human
being and trying to understand them and build that rapport
absolutely fascinating. And so as an employer, I've also
started to find that really interesting as well.
(14:38):
That's not to say there aren't challenges.
Some days I really think, oh gosh, you know, you've got 2-3
different people with different challenges and I'm not quite
sure how to solve them. And I'm not sure how this is
going to go into the future. Of course, you get days like
that. I'm not going to pretend it's,
it's all rosy. But on the flip side where you
(15:00):
feel like you've brought the right sort of person in and
you've started to build a team that fire off each other.
So we have a WhatsApp group in our team, for example.
And I, I sit back and I often don't comment because I'm
fascinated to see how they interact with each other.
And one person who's in much better place than I am to help
(15:21):
with a particular query or an issue.
Then you start to see this sort of, you've built something that
is organically now running on its own gas.
And I know it's like, wow, OK, this is cool.
Like I never envisaged that. And that's such a that's such a
good skill as a business owner and a physio.
(15:42):
In fact, I think to know the point at which to step back and
let the thing breathe, whatever it is.
Don't mean to call your people that work for your thing, but
you know that ecosystem that you've built to let it breathe
and grow of its own out of its own momentum.
I think that studies the skill set to, to know that moment and,
and to trust yourself to step away.
(16:04):
I think it's one of the hardest things, isn't it?
Well, again, as a patient and a physio to just or as a parent to
step back and trust that that person, that group of people
that business will be will be able to sustain and grow without
your constant input. Yeah, I think the phrase that
(16:25):
comes back to me often is talking about giving other
people responsibility or freedomis that delegation is not
abdication. So just saying oh, you get on
with it and then providing no sounding board or feedback point
or follow up or critique or support is bad management.
(16:51):
And I don't profess to be the best manager.
In fact, my, my goal is always to try and get someone who's the
best manager in to do the managing and then I can focus on
the entrepreneurship. And I still have as a, as a goal
and something that's important to me going forwards.
But it's I, I feel that there are two key things that sit with
(17:13):
me that are my job. One is to enable environment
where people can thrive. So that's what what they're
doing outside work, what their day-to-day work set up is, what
their career progression is like, areas that interest them
in terms of their caseload, their extra skills that they
(17:36):
want to bring on board. So that's enabling them to
thrive. And then also when, pardon the
phrase, when the shit hits the fan and something goes badly
wrong, how I react and how I manage and handle people is it
another critical point? And it says everything about me.
(18:01):
And I feel that they're the moments in which people talk
about culture in an organization.
When things go wrong, I think you prove the culture through
how you act. I don't think it's necessarily a
bunch of phrases up on the wall.I think it's when things go
wrong, people find out what you're about and then they learn
(18:23):
that, OK, that's how we do things.
And actually then they pay it forward often.
And if they're responsible for some people or they're dealing
with a colleague, it's amazing. I've seen that with our team.
So I can't say I've done everything right.
I certainly haven't. But trying to foster that.
This is how we deal with people when they're in difficult times.
This is how we handle them. Like the last two years or so,
(18:49):
when someone has found out that one of the colleagues has had a
difficult issue or something's happened in the background, the
mountains, they'd organise a whip round and they'll would all
donate some money and then we'llgo and get a present and they'll
give it to them or they'll give them a card.
And I have, I've had nothing to do with that.
And that's really cool. And to see that people look out
(19:10):
for each other, it makes you proud, it really does.
And you say, Tom, that you have nothing to do with that.
But one thing I do remember you telling me about was your your
childhood and the environment you grew up in and the some of
the values that you picked up from your parents and, and just
the world that you you inhabited.
(19:31):
Then by all means, you know, describe as much or as little of
that as you want in in this on this podcast.
But I would say from what I learned about you then I would
argue that you you have had a lot to do with why that happens
when the chips are down with people in your clinic.
Yeah, perhaps not by design, maybe more by osmosis I guess,
(19:53):
and a lot of things. I think perhaps you don't
realise the effect you have on people whilst you are affecting
them, if you know what I mean. It's sometimes subconscious, but
maybe you're right, maybe that maybe that isn't an effect of
how I've been influenced or the values that have been laid down
in me. And, you know, I had slightly
unusual childhood in the sense that I was part of the big
(20:16):
family and my parents were probably the most amazing
parents you could ever have. And I feel, and I thought that
was the norm. You know, I just thought
everyone had awesome parents andthey were on the give the whole
time. And I went through life and I
realized that not everyone is that lucky.
(20:37):
I felt that I had it. I was very blessed with that and
we weren't well off at all. We were actually extremely hard
up, I think did. You say your parents were
teachers. Both my parents were teachers
initially. My mum, also my dad's done lots
of different things and he was unemployed for six years during
the recession in the 90s. And we lived off a very little,
(21:00):
you know, home baked bread and you know, we were, we should.
The salient point is that we were ten children at home.
I don't think I need that. OK, so so I was number 4 of 10,
which is in itself a highly unusual thing in modern families
or usual A couple of generationsago, both my parents were
(21:25):
Christians and that I think affected the environment of the
home and this idea to, to be on the giving side.
They both wanted a big family. I think when they were younger,
neither of them come from big families, but they they, they've
made that decision. But that's what they wanted to
(21:45):
do. They achieved that aim, sorry,
they achieved that aim. They did.
And no, it was just incredible. Like you cannot imagine how cool
like Christmas in our family at home was just mad.
But you know, I, I think when you, when you see and observe
that as a child, it lays down things in you which become your
(22:10):
belief system. And we're still a very close
family. You know, some of my siblings
are my best friends. And I guess The thing is that it
perhaps did instill in me is this idea that given you shall
receive, which is really important.
And, and I'm, I'm actually, you know, practicing Christian as
(22:31):
well. So that's infected me hugely.
This this principle of if you give to others it it it does
come back to you 100%. Yeah, and you've reminded me,
Tom, of there. There was another moment in our
conversation that I'll perhaps remind you of because we were
(22:52):
talking about, you were talking.You were talking to me about
perhaps wanting to look at acquiring other businesses and
expanding your, your clinics. And we got talking about the
financial side of it. And you explained to me very
clearly, you know, I think I asked you again, why do you
(23:13):
want, why do you want more money?
And I don't know if you remember, but you, you said to
me situations come up. For example, I think you said a
friend of mine's daughter is really struggling at the moment.
And I, you know, I'm helping outand I want to be able to do that
without any, without it being a problem.
You know, I want to personally be financially stable enough
(23:36):
that I can give the time and if necessary, I can support with
funds as well. And I remember smiling and
saying, oh, that's why you don'thave an issue with earning
money. And I didn't mean because it's a
really altruistic sounding reason, because it's easy to go,
OK, well, of course he doesn't have issues about money because
he's talking about a really, really good thing to do with his
(23:57):
money. I think what struck me more was
that you were crystal clear as to what that would create for
you, which was essentially spacefor the things that were
important to you. And you know, this, this type of
way of being happens to be the thing that's really important to
you. But the model still works if if
the motivations are slightly different.
(24:17):
But what was apparent to me was how crystal clear you were about
that. Yeah, no.
And I think that there, that's one point like you mentioned,
but there's, there's a second. And, and those I think are the
two fundamental things that Get Me Out of bed in the morning and
push and be ambitious and to, and not just sit back and do
(24:39):
something that's easy. I mean, it's an interesting one.
I, I've never seen myself as an entrepreneur, not for one
moment. My, my comfort zone is academia,
I think. So if I'd have just gone through
the path of least resistance my whole career, I would be a
lecturer. And I've got some, some of my
(25:01):
best friends lecturers and it's a really fantastic role.
And it's something that I naturally would aggregate
towards, but I, I've learnt through my professional life
that the way to actually amass some extra, you know, some
decent capital is to go down thebusiness route.
So I've ended up in this almost by accident.
(25:25):
But the Seminole points that have developed in my mind as to
why, why am I doing this? Why not go and do something
that's easier? Why not just be stick with one
clinic? Why think about acquisition and
growth and generating more financial capital?
The one is selfish and the otherone is less selfish.
The first one, and I make no apologies for this, is time.
(25:50):
Because if by having things thatgenerate their income generating
that aren't attached to how muchI do work, I can then free up my
time to do other things, spend time with my children, go and do
teaching, look at other interesting opportunities,
(26:13):
explore things that few people get the chance to do in their
working life, travel, etcetera. Whatever it is, freeing up time
gives me the chance to then consider those as a starting
point. So that's the one.
The second is by having, you know, a good amount of extra
capital, the financial means to think creatively and act
(26:38):
creatively outside the box. Or, you know, we have a big
network and friends, colleagues,people from the church I go to,
my wife's Norwegian, so our friends in Norway.
So having that large network means you see needs, you see
people come up and maybe, you know, my one of my colleagues, a
(27:03):
close family member is going through some serious cancer
treatment. So if we could go and, you know,
buy them a trip to go on a holiday for a weekend, how cool
is that? I mean, there are a few people
who get the chance to have that much impact on people's lives.
And that's not from some sort oflike virtual signalling
perspective. You could do it completely
(27:23):
secretly, no one has to know. But you know, the, the small
ways where we've been able to dothat and let's say someone's got
a whip round and then we match funded it.
I'm going, Yep, bam, let's do it.
If we didn't have the cash in the bank to do that, we couldn't
act in that way quickly and be like, right, well, we're going
to, you know, if you see people in great need and that
occasionally comes over people'slives and you're powerless to
(27:45):
act, that's the frustration. And I, I found that one of the
most rewarding things that I've been able to do.
And I, I don't think I have beenup to much yet, but I really
intend to. And, and that is a massive
motivator for me because I, I think we get a limited time on
(28:05):
this earth and we really are just stewards for the money that
we are borrowing and having temporarily, you know, we can't
take it with us. It's not ours really.
I mean, there's some people might find this a bit Christiany
mumbo jumbo, but it's kind of like, well, it's God's money.
I'm borrowing it, I'm looking after it.
I've got to be a good steward ofwhat I have, whether that's a
lot or a little. And I can't be so wedded to it
(28:28):
that if it all disappeared tomorrow that oh, my life would
fall apart. No, I feel like it's got to be a
little bit of natural separation.
I'm doing my best and if I fall on good times, then great.
And if I don't, then I find a different path.
So for me, I guess my personal faith has implants that
massively and and also, like I said, my my family background
(28:57):
and seeing how my parents handled other people and.
Yeah, I'm, I'm having sorry to interrupt you, Tom, I'm having a
little bit of an internal battlehere listening to you.
And I'm a non Christian, but I, so there's a phrase I sometimes
use for myself when I'm thinkingabout, oh, what should I charge
(29:20):
for a service or, you know, how much of my time should I give
for this? And I've got into the habit of
asking myself, what would I needto charge in order to feel
generous? And what I mean is, you know, if
I under charge, am I going to feel resentful if I give too
much of my time for too little? Am I just going to feel, you
(29:42):
know, not generous about it? Whereas what will put me in a
state where I feel, yeah, this, you know, this feels good.
And I've got, I've got more to give.
And then I'm thinking, you know,your understanding of the
sentiment would be greater than mine.
But then I'm thinking of the notion that actually the
poorest, is it in Christianity, is it that it's more virtuous to
(30:08):
give when you have nothing? Yeah, that's that's the internal
battle I'm having. Oh, no.
Should I? Should I be waiting till I feel
generous? Or is the true path to feel
generous regardless? Yeah.
Well, that's, that's a very interesting question about and
that what value you, what price you put and what value you
(30:30):
attach to a service. And I don't see that as quite
the same question as generosity if I'm honest.
Maybe that's because I don't do coaching or or or work with
people in quite that same way. But when we set up services, we
are quite capitalist about it. I'm not going to pretend we're
not We we think right. What is a profit making
activity? What is the market rate for
(30:53):
that? Are we average in the market in
terms of our staff and their knowledge etcetera or are we
better? If we're a bit better, then
let's bump that price up a bit and make it reflect what the
customer is getting. And that is a fairly cut and dry
pricing model that we've always stuck by.
We don't, we don't pretend to bethe cheapest.
(31:16):
But in terms of, you know, at that point about generosity,
it's very interesting. I think what you're referring
to, there's a, there's a parableabout a widow that had like 2
pennies and she went and donatedthese two pennies and people
were scoffing and saying, oh, you're just giving 2 pennies.
That's worth nothing. But then Jesus had said to them,
(31:38):
he he'd reprimand them and said,look, this, this person is more
worthy because they've got so little and yet they're giving,
whereas other people would give loads more than that and they
wouldn't even feel it. Whereas if your question is
about is it more virtuous to youwhen you have little, I think
it's harder to to give when you have little.
(31:59):
And you know, we're not a massive conglomerate with, with
big pockets. You know, we're quite a small
operation, but I think it's morethe principle of saying, well,
if you say, well, I'll wait tillI've got loads and then I'll
give stuff to people or whateverit is that's that's in your mind
to do, you will never do it. That's the truth.
(32:24):
So action, I know you, you can buy into that because, you know,
you understand these principles,Joe.
But I think action is is the bigthing.
Yeah, just doing, doing it not. Thinking it, thinking it's not
enough. You've got to take action and
often that hits the wallet and then you find out like we're how
(32:44):
much do I actually care? And if I've got if I'm really
hard up and I'm like, you know, we can't well, can I give like
10 lbs. And this is something I've
learnt through my life to some degree is this business of it
will never be really fully convenient to to give people or
(33:07):
donate or whatever. And I'm not saying we should do
it just because it's another place.
I'm not going to refer too much to the Bible.
It's not evangelism. But in the other place it says
give general God loves the cheerful giver.
So rather than giving grudgingly.
(33:28):
That's in the Bible. God loves the cheerful giver.
Yeah, yeah. So, so it says, it says not not
out of necessity, not grudginglyor out of necessity or God loves
the ship or good. So it's been like, right, give
it happily. You know, if you're going to
give something, you want to figure out what you can afford,
right? Or, or what's reasonable.
(33:48):
Like we don't, there's some stuff we just don't, we don't.
Well, we can't do that because we haven't got the money to do
that. But we could do this and let's
support us. And if we put individuals that
we know, let's say staff members, I cannot tell you how
much of it it's meant the sentiment of knowing that you
have and they go, wow, you know,you guys have done a whip round
(34:10):
and OK, it's not thousands of pounds, it's a little sum.
But what it meant to them was far greater than the the sum of.
It meant you noticed me, you noticed I needed something and
you acted rather than just as you say.
Thought about it. Yeah, I love that.
I'm going to, I'm going to lighten things a little bit,
Tom, with the memory of a, something a physio said to me
(34:32):
about her dad once. I'm thinking about you saying
we're certainly not the cheapest.
So this physio's dad was a he was a builder.
And I can't remember why it cameup in conversation, but she was
telling me, I, I don't think maybe we were trying to think up
strap lines for the business. And she said her dad, for all
his working years, he had this van and, and across the top of
(34:52):
the van, it said his business name.
And then it said we're not the cheapest, we're certainly not
the best. She said the number of double
takes, that it was the best marketing line ever and people
trying to work it out. Well, they do say in marketing
you need to stand out, don't they?
So you know, oh, 'cause a few work prices.
(35:16):
So we talked a little bit about the people that work for you and
I'm starting to feel how lucky those those people are, Tom, but
were you, when you, when you think about supporting that
people, supporting the people that work with you for you, does
(35:37):
it bring up memories of you as ayounger physio or, you know, do
you take them all? You've already said they're
individuals with different motivations.
How do you manage that sense of responsibility and and what sort
of things other than what you'vealready mentioned do you do?
So in in managing like managing.Yeah.
(36:00):
So you've said you're, you're aware that you're aware of the
needs and the different personalities of the people
working for you. Apologies.
Talking of builders, I've got some building work going on.
Is it coming across on? There.
No, I can't. I can't hear it.
Oh, good, good. Yeah, I asked.
I asked you too many questions in one.
So let's start with the first thing I said was does it bring
back memories of things that youwish you'd been supported with
(36:22):
when you were coming up through the the more junior ranks of
being a physio? Yeah, I think, I think I was a
relatively uncomplicated and fairly thick skinned sort of
apprentice in in some senses. So I I, you know, I was lucky I
(36:46):
guess in that sense. Not everyone is has it so easy
and I also know that a lot of people suffer with imposter
syndrome and a weight of responsibility as a clinician.
That's not uncommon and that's actually not wrong at all.
So, you know, that's one of the first things we speak to our new
(37:08):
starters about when they first joined.
We set out some ground rules, which is the obvious stuff, as
you would, I'm sure you'd appreciate no such thing as a
stupid question. There's an open door policy.
You have a responsibility to askon behalf of other people who
may be too worried to ask. And so that setting those kind
(37:33):
of ground rules, if you like these principles, we hope to
instill that into people and just be like, you're not
expected to know everything straight away.
In fact, if you did, there'd be something a bit weird going on
because this is supposed to be aprofession where you're
continuously learning probably throughout your whole career and
developing. And as soon as you stop
learning, then we have to ask why, what's going on there?
(37:56):
So I often just say to people, look, if you know this much,
then that's absolutely fine. And also another principle we
talk about is show your strong side to your patients and your
weak side to your colleagues, because we don't need to show
each other on strong sizes. We can be like, I have no idea
what I'm doing with this patient.
I think really healthy, really important.
(38:17):
Of course, you can still presenta confident front to the
patients and instill them with that sense that you know what
you're doing. But in terms of feeling safe,
feeling confident, feeling happy, our clinical lead, Ed, he
says no one should be going homeat the end of the day and
thinking about their caseload atnight or that patient or no one
(38:38):
should ever do that. So he's been drumming that into
our team and saying if you are not sure, call me, 9:00 at
night, call me. So he's a fantastic clinical
lead at Brown and another one where if stuff goes wrong, he's
there straight away. So he's not on people all the
(38:58):
time. But I think that's a really nice
management style, just being like to set some ground rules.
So that's one thing. The other thing in terms of how
to manage people, I'll tell you what, I, I've been learning that
and I'm still learning that all the time.
And I, I, I can't say I feel like I get it right all the
time, Joe, But one thing I have learned is through experiences.
(39:22):
Being managed by other people, both good and bad, has really
taught me a lot through my junior years.
One was a really painful experience where for about a
year and a half I was managed inan NHS role by a woman with a
burden, probably a personality disorder.
And she was extremely micromanaging, extremely
(39:49):
aggressive if anything went wrong, almost like she was
panicking that it would come back on her desk somehow.
And you got that feeling of her being completely suffocated,
brought into her office, and then almost going out in tears
again because you felt like you were you were being.
Yeah, being hauled across the coast, you didn't really realise
(40:09):
that you've done wrong. So experiencing those extremes
and that is quite an extreme case, I think then teaches you
the case of going 0 hang on, most people are insecure.
Most people are are needing twice as much positive
reinforcement as as they are critique.
(40:31):
And I didn't appreciate that, I think for many years because I
am quite a naturally confident person And, and that's not my
fault. That's the way I'm made.
And I'm not saying that's an advantage all the time either.
I got marked down in my first placement because they said, oh,
you're just too confident. And we just don't like that.
You're not asking questions. And, and a massive personality
clash with this quiet, you know,mousy physio who was my
(40:55):
supervisor. And I was completely unaware of
what the vibe was giving across.And I had to learn that.
So I was like, OK, so you're a slightly overbearing, slightly
confident personality. Be conscious and aware of the
other people. Most people aren't like that.
So you learn this about yourselfand and how you the the image
you portray as well. So I guess having bad
(41:17):
experiences has taught me what not to do and taught me that you
have to handle people with real care and sensitivity.
Everyone doesn't matter if they're coming across in a
confident way or not. Underneath the surface, most
people are insecure a little bitand are needing a lot of
(41:38):
positive reinforcement, even people who've been physios for
30 odd years. I don't care that everyone needs
to be complimented, told when they're doing a good job.
And the other thing is I was at the Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre
for quite a few years, which is in Oxfordshire.
It's a big sort of orthopaedic department.
I work there, I know it will. You did.
Of course you did. So Colette Tracy was the manager
(42:03):
there and I thought she was absolutely fantastic.
She wasn't your best mate, she never tried to be.
She kept professional distance, which I respected, but she was
warm and she always had your back.
When I went on paternity leave for example, she she called me
up. She always had your back and she
focused on accountability. So we had clinical reasoning
(42:25):
sessions once a week and she would quiz you, query stuff.
And it was a bit sort of uncomfortable, I'm not going to
lie, but it was a bit like, you know, you need to learn this.
And she didn't apologise for setting high standards.
So she set high standards, she backed them up.
But then she created an environment which was warm and
(42:45):
it was supportive. She, you, you felt like she
wanted you to succeed. And as a manager, if you can
give people the sense that you want them to succeed, you want
them to thrive, you want them togo places, I think it allows you
to more room to then say, well, no, you didn't do that right?
And you, that needs to be bettermore because right in their gut
(43:07):
they feel like this person wantsmy best and they want me to do
well. Yeah, and Colette, if you happen
to be listening, then thank you for me too.
I think I was probably in your care, Colette, at a time where I
was less up together than Tom. I was a very junior physio when
I was with. I don't.
Think so. I remember how tolerant she was
(43:31):
of my slightly random existence in my early 20s, and she was
great. And you know, like you, Tom, I
just remember, is this really? I remember her very steady
influence. I remember her slightly
quizzical looks when she clearlythought, what the hell is this
girl up to now? But yeah, so supportive and.
(43:52):
And yeah, just the real steadiness that I needed at that
time. So thank you, Collette.
If you're listening, I don't think I ever got a chance to
thank you. One conversation I need to share
is that she surprised me. So I get a lot of stick when I
left from the whole team. It was unexpected.
I was, I was leaving to go into the private practice and, and a
freelance and they were shocked.They were absolutely shocked
(44:14):
because I thought I'd be here. I was talking about masters and
going to specialist role and my supervisor at the time, Simon,
he, he bought me a helium balloon that had Darth Vader on
it in the I was going, it was the dark side, the dark.
Side. And it was it, yeah, it was a it
was a who are. But Colette took me to her
(44:37):
office and she said, I think you're doing the right thing and
I think this will give you loadsof opportunities.
And I think I'm going to give you my blessing and say, you
know, you're going to do great. So I suddenly thought, you know,
the weight was lifted off my shoulders and guilt and all that
sort of stuff. And she really helped me and
sent me on my way with with fullbacking and talked a bit about
(44:58):
an experience that she'd had where she could have gone down
the same route. And if she'd had her time again,
she might have done that as well.
So I was like, OK, if this is good enough Galette, then maybe
it's good enough for me. And that suddenly just made me a
whole lot happier about it. She probably doesn't make that
conversation, but it, it, it laid down something in me.
And I think it's important to remember this.
As managers, we're in a positionof authority.
(45:21):
And sometimes these conversations which we think
don't matter, they, they actually are pretty like
foundational for people. Yeah, well, listen, from time
sticking on, I'm going to draw the conversation to a close.
But as I do, I'm going to take apage out of your book and, and
the positive reinforcement page,because the more I hear about
what you do, Tom, and how you doit, then, you know, I think I
(45:44):
want to congratulate you and say, you know, I think you're,
you're going about things in an amazing way and talking about it
in this way. Possibly you might
underestimate, I think, the value of other people running
businesses, thinking of setting up visitors, existing in
businesses or NHS organisations.You know, the more we talk about
(46:06):
what good leadership, good people management, good self
management is, the better. And yeah, I really want to
congratulate you for for what you're doing in your physio
world and and the rest of your world.
Thank you, Jo. I really appreciate that.
Thank you so much for being a guest.
I really appreciate your time, Tom.
(46:26):
My pleasure, thanks for having me on.
Take care. I'll see.
You in a few weeks. Bye for now.
Bye. Well, I hope you enjoyed that
conversation. I said.
We covered a lot of ground from clinic, clinic management to
Christianity. I really enjoyed it and I
genuinely meant what I said at the end.
I really admire what Tom's doingin the world, or perhaps more
(46:48):
what Tom is being in the world. And I really appreciate his
willingness to to talk about that.
Let me know what you thought. Tell me which bits you
identified with. Tell me if your experiences of
working for people and or managing people are similar or
different. Yeah, let me know what you
(47:09):
thought. So whichever side of those
various fences you sit on, I am sure if you're a clinician that
you are giving in many spheres of your life all day everyday.
And as I always say, please do not forget yourself in that
little ecosystem because just like all the other people, you
definitely matter. Here at Physio Matters, we think
(47:44):
physio matters. Become a member today and access
the biggest MSK library on the planet.
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If that software exists, I bet you'd want a three month free
trial, wouldn't you? Just go to
rehabmypatient.com/physio Matters now.
(00:28):
Hello and welcome to You Matter.In this episode, I'm talking to
physiotherapist Tom Jacobs, who is still a practicing physio but
also owns a couple of physio clinics and runs an FCP service
and lots of other things which he's going to describe to you in
the introduction. But the reason I wanted to talk
to Tom was really on the broad subject of well-being with those
(00:52):
various hats and the the two sides of the fence that he sits
on, both as a clinician and someone who manages clinicians.
You'll see when you listen to the episode where you will hear
in the episode that we we cover a lot of Grant and dip into lots
of different philosophies and things outside the clinical
(01:14):
world and inside it. So I really hope you enjoy the
conversation. I think it will have relevance
whether you are whether you wearany of those hats, whether
you're a clinician working in NHS or private sector, whether
you work for somebody else and indeed whether you manage other
people. So sit back and enjoy the
conversation and I'll be back atthe end.
(01:37):
Hello and welcome to the next edition of You Matter Where.
I'm very pleased to welcome physiotherapist and clinic owner
Tom Jacobs. Hi, Tom.
Hi, Joe. Hi, so before I bring people on
there, I often have a quick chatto them and make sure I've got
all the details of the various things that they do correct.
(01:57):
And the thing about Tom is there's quite a lot of them.
And as we started adding to the list, I said, do you know what,
Tom? I'm just going to let you
introduce yourself and explain the many things that you do.
So straight away over to you, Tom.
Please let people know what you're up to.
Great. So thanks for having me on the
podcast, Joe, to support what you're doing, I guess I'd do
(02:20):
several main jobs. My most important job I think is
running a practice. 7 physios and three massage therapists.
Private practice in Oxfordshire based predominantly on one site
in a big commercial gym space where we have treatment rooms
and a pool and different things.Really nice facility.
(02:44):
Then we also have an FCP serviceprovision across three different
GP surgeries. We have contracts with three
different GP surgeries within the the county.
So we are like a small medium sized operation, I guess all
based in one county and I do three to four days clinical and
(03:04):
the rest non clinical. Most of that is managing those
two main operations. And then I have a little bit of
other stuff that takes up a verysmall amount of my time like
teaching. I do a little bit of visitor
teaching, lecturing on the Oxford Brookes physio courses.
I do a bit of teaching for the GP trainees in Oxfordshire,
(03:26):
that's the Oxford Deanery, so upat the John Maccliffe Hospital
in Oxfordshire and that's basically teaching the people
who doctors who are becoming GPS.
They go through a three-year training programme and I teach
them on time limited MSK assessments in primary care.
I do a little bit of teaching onother topics.
I've done some lecturing on and ACL injury prevention at the
(03:50):
British Orthopaedic Association and the Kids Knee Conference,
which was a nice big international conference, great
fun. And that's in my role as a
trustee of a charity called Power Up to Play, which was
launched about four years ago with myself and a bunch of other
clinicians, orthopods and sportsmedic doctors in Oxfordshire,
and now is a national organization.
(04:11):
We've got a bunch of different physios who are volunteers and
and ambassadors on that programme, which is all about
preventing ACL injuries in younger the younger population.
So that's all the different hats.
Quite a lot of hats from our conversation when we met in the
(04:33):
summer, Tom, I know that there'squite a lot going on personally
as well. You're a dad of young kids,
aren't you? And there was a house move being
mentioned. I don't know if anything else
has been added to that personal list since we met, but fair to
say there's quite a lot going on.
There's a lot. Yeah, and although it's a lot,
(04:54):
there's probably people listening with similar stories.
And you know, I think physio is one of those professions, isn't
it, where it's quite easy to addto lots of different strands in
and, and, and keep adding and keep adding, probably because we
level the things we do. But you can end up with quite an
extensive portfolio. So Tom does that.
(05:17):
How does all that relate to yourwell-being, positively or
negatively? The fact that you do all these
different things. I don't think I I've ever chosen
to do lots of things for the sake of doing lots of things.
And I think the trap of falling into a presented opportunity and
(05:38):
therefore just taking a presented opportunity that comes
up, someone emails you, someone calls you and say, oh, this is a
cool idea. Should we do this?
It is is something that is a real danger for certain people.
I'm certainly a bit of a yes manand an over optimist.
Most entrepreneurs are optimists.
Otherwise you would never do it.But I, I think that is a danger
(06:02):
that I, I'm cognizant of and I'malways on the, the lookout for
to think, OK, is this something that is the right thing to be
doing? So what's been a real help for
me is you'll, you'll like to hear this Joe, is some coaching
because stripping things back towhy do you do what you do?
(06:24):
But also business mentorship hasbeen good for me because I've
been able to then think what is the strategy longer term, bigger
term, and do the things that we're thinking to get involved
in, fulfil a specific need either for the business or for
the individuals in that business.
So that's really helped me from the avoid the pitfalls of just
(06:47):
going, yeah, this is cool, let'sdo another thing because I
really don't buy into that at all.
Unless it's serving a purpose, either financially from a
business perspective, or it's fulfilling a need which we as
humans or individuals have, thenyou should not be doing it.
(07:08):
And I know that's probably a bitrich going from someone who's
doing clearly loads of things. But when I sit back and look at
each of those individuals, I cangive you an example.
I feel that then they need to beadding, adding something.
For example with the FCP services, if we hadn't have set
(07:29):
those up pre COVID, I think we would have possibly gone
bankrupting COVID. So we have contract contractual
obligations to fulfil and whether or not the services were
being made use of or not, whether patients were filling
the list or not, we had a financial income based on income
(07:50):
which is coming in at the end ofthe month regardless delivered
on our side of the of the contracts.
So sending in our clinicians on these days, then we were able to
then secure ourselves a baselineincome, which in the time since
then has given us a buffer to manage financial risk and
financial insecurity, which has meant that we thought, right,
(08:15):
well, even though per hour of physical activity time or
business time, it doesn't earn as much as you would do if you
were running a busy clinic. It's a reason to be.
So that's a business reason. And then for example, let's take
the teaching, you know, why would I be involved in teaching?
It's not exactly that the highest paid activity that one
could find if you're looking at it purely from a financial
(08:38):
perspective. But I don't see it that way.
It is something that I've alwaysenjoyed doing, even from when I
was a third year student and teaching the first years or you
know, one of my younger siblingswith their maths homework.
I've always loved it. And I, I considered very closely
whether to go straight into teaching after I qualified and
(08:59):
then decided against doing that.But it's always been something
that's been in the back of my mind is a passion for doing
something that really gives me value.
And I think, wow, I really enjoyed having that receptivity
and the feedback from the peopleI've been teaching.
It gives me something here on the inside that lifts 1, I
(09:21):
think. And we've all got different
attributes and different things that give us value in in our
professional lives. And that's something that has
added value for me. Yeah.
So there's another, another strand to your filters there.
I think I've heard, you know, you talked about things that are
financially a good idea, things that benefit the people that
(09:46):
work for you or the business itself.
And then there's this aspect of does it fulfil you?
Does it give you enjoyment outside of the financial aspect?
And obviously there's this sweetspot sometimes where we find the
things that fit all of those 3, isn't there?
But yeah, I think that that lastone's really important.
And I remember when we spoke in the summer, Tom, you, you know,
(10:09):
then you were talking about various things you're up to.
And an obvious, very simple, straightforward coaching
question for me was why? Why are you doing all of this?
And I do remember your answer very clearly, and I'd love it if
you share what you said to me when I asked you that.
Yeah, good question. I know I'm starting to remember
now what I, what I said, but I'msure it was something along the
lines of I was in the NHS for seven years in a very, my last
(10:38):
role was, was a really dynamic team who I loved spending time
with in an orthopaedic hospital.So I remember asking myself why
would I want to leave that? And it was something I wrestled
over and it was eventually my wife had given me the kit to
take a plunge into something unknown.
At the time. I don't think I saw it very
(11:02):
clearly. If I'm perfectly honest, it was
it came down to financial reasons.
So my wife was on maternity leave at the time with an
American company doing accounts,some accounts role.
And we'd had our first baby and we didn't really have quite
(11:22):
enough to meet the mortgage and the the payments that we needed.
And I was doing private work on the side.
And it led to one thing I've told.
So it's a financial decision andit you could say my big raison
d'etre at that point was I need to provide for my new baby and
(11:42):
for my literally. I.
Remember those days, It's a verysort of like suddenly you become
very much awakened. Not for what I enjoy doing.
I like doing at work what I enjoy doing, which is what I was
thinking to up until that point,lying in the sand.
Suddenly it was like I must provide and other people have
those, those Seminole moments earlier in life.
(12:03):
I didn't. I it came with me all at once.
So that was definitely my reasonat the time.
But Fast forward to today is much more nuanced than that.
Actually, I think almost all of us, the reason, the baseline
reason is that we need to we need to earn a living, we need
(12:26):
to financially support ourselves, of course, But there
is a lot more to it than that. And we're lucky enough, many of
us to work in a field or a profession where we get huge
opportunities, breadth of opportunities and a chance for
adding meaning, adding value, which you wouldn't get if you
were working in a, in a, in another role.
(12:47):
And I remember being the idea of, of, of a nightmare for me as
a job, as a career. I remember thinking it was very
clear at the age of probably 15 was going and sitting in an
office and working on their own computer and going up and it
didn't. I didn't care if someone paid me
£300,000 I I would hate it. So I think my my purpose if you
(13:14):
like. Now after ending up gradually
over time in a position where I I'm responsible for medium sized
team, quite a bunch of people with mixed backgrounds and
interests. And they have different things
that give them value, different things that are important to
(13:34):
them. Some of them have children, some
of them don't. Some are really career
orientated, some are really not.And that all means different
things to different people. And as much as I've really loved
interacting with other human beings who have patience and
picking the lot on this individual, you know, you all
know what that's like. I still get excited now, which
(13:55):
is probably the only reason I still do clinical work.
If there's a new patient in the waiting room, I'm kind of really
excited. I'm going to go and meet with
them, bring them in and unpick this lock.
And I, I still love that almost like human psychology element to
it. It still gives me a gig.
And if they don't walk out of the room going, I'm so pleased I
(14:15):
came today that I, I would be disappointed.
So I, I do find kind of getting under the skin of another human
being and trying to understand them and build that rapport
absolutely fascinating. And so as an employer, I've also
started to find that really interesting as well.
(14:38):
That's not to say there aren't challenges.
Some days I really think, oh gosh, you know, you've got 2-3
different people with different challenges and I'm not quite
sure how to solve them. And I'm not sure how this is
going to go into the future. Of course, you get days like
that. I'm not going to pretend it's,
it's all rosy. But on the flip side where you
(15:00):
feel like you've brought the right sort of person in and
you've started to build a team that fire off each other.
So we have a WhatsApp group in our team, for example.
And I, I sit back and I often don't comment because I'm
fascinated to see how they interact with each other.
And one person who's in much better place than I am to help
(15:21):
with a particular query or an issue.
Then you start to see this sort of, you've built something that
is organically now running on its own gas.
And I know it's like, wow, OK, this is cool.
Like I never envisaged that. And that's such a that's such a
good skill as a business owner and a physio.
(15:42):
In fact, I think to know the point at which to step back and
let the thing breathe, whatever it is.
Don't mean to call your people that work for your thing, but
you know that ecosystem that you've built to let it breathe
and grow of its own out of its own momentum.
I think that studies the skill set to, to know that moment and,
and to trust yourself to step away.
(16:04):
I think it's one of the hardest things, isn't it?
Well, again, as a patient and a physio to just or as a parent to
step back and trust that that person, that group of people
that business will be will be able to sustain and grow without
your constant input. Yeah, I think the phrase that
(16:25):
comes back to me often is talking about giving other
people responsibility or freedomis that delegation is not
abdication. So just saying oh, you get on
with it and then providing no sounding board or feedback point
or follow up or critique or support is bad management.
(16:51):
And I don't profess to be the best manager.
In fact, my, my goal is always to try and get someone who's the
best manager in to do the managing and then I can focus on
the entrepreneurship. And I still have as a, as a goal
and something that's important to me going forwards.
But it's I, I feel that there are two key things that sit with
(17:13):
me that are my job. One is to enable environment
where people can thrive. So that's what what they're
doing outside work, what their day-to-day work set up is, what
their career progression is like, areas that interest them
in terms of their caseload, their extra skills that they
(17:36):
want to bring on board. So that's enabling them to
thrive. And then also when, pardon the
phrase, when the shit hits the fan and something goes badly
wrong, how I react and how I manage and handle people is it
another critical point? And it says everything about me.
(18:01):
And I feel that they're the moments in which people talk
about culture in an organization.
When things go wrong, I think you prove the culture through
how you act. I don't think it's necessarily a
bunch of phrases up on the wall.I think it's when things go
wrong, people find out what you're about and then they learn
(18:23):
that, OK, that's how we do things.
And actually then they pay it forward often.
And if they're responsible for some people or they're dealing
with a colleague, it's amazing. I've seen that with our team.
So I can't say I've done everything right.
I certainly haven't. But trying to foster that.
This is how we deal with people when they're in difficult times.
This is how we handle them. Like the last two years or so,
(18:49):
when someone has found out that one of the colleagues has had a
difficult issue or something's happened in the background, the
mountains, they'd organise a whip round and they'll would all
donate some money and then we'llgo and get a present and they'll
give it to them or they'll give them a card.
And I have, I've had nothing to do with that.
And that's really cool. And to see that people look out
(19:10):
for each other, it makes you proud, it really does.
And you say, Tom, that you have nothing to do with that.
But one thing I do remember you telling me about was your your
childhood and the environment you grew up in and the some of
the values that you picked up from your parents and, and just
the world that you you inhabited.
(19:31):
Then by all means, you know, describe as much or as little of
that as you want in in this on this podcast.
But I would say from what I learned about you then I would
argue that you you have had a lot to do with why that happens
when the chips are down with people in your clinic.
Yeah, perhaps not by design, maybe more by osmosis I guess,
(19:53):
and a lot of things. I think perhaps you don't
realise the effect you have on people whilst you are affecting
them, if you know what I mean. It's sometimes subconscious, but
maybe you're right, maybe that maybe that isn't an effect of
how I've been influenced or the values that have been laid down
in me. And, you know, I had slightly
unusual childhood in the sense that I was part of the big
(20:16):
family and my parents were probably the most amazing
parents you could ever have. And I feel, and I thought that
was the norm. You know, I just thought
everyone had awesome parents andthey were on the give the whole
time. And I went through life and I
realized that not everyone is that lucky.
(20:37):
I felt that I had it. I was very blessed with that and
we weren't well off at all. We were actually extremely hard
up, I think did. You say your parents were
teachers. Both my parents were teachers
initially. My mum, also my dad's done lots
of different things and he was unemployed for six years during
the recession in the 90s. And we lived off a very little,
(21:00):
you know, home baked bread and you know, we were, we should.
The salient point is that we were ten children at home.
I don't think I need that. OK, so so I was number 4 of 10,
which is in itself a highly unusual thing in modern families
or usual A couple of generationsago, both my parents were
(21:25):
Christians and that I think affected the environment of the
home and this idea to, to be on the giving side.
They both wanted a big family. I think when they were younger,
neither of them come from big families, but they they, they've
made that decision. But that's what they wanted to
(21:45):
do. They achieved that aim, sorry,
they achieved that aim. They did.
And no, it was just incredible. Like you cannot imagine how cool
like Christmas in our family at home was just mad.
But you know, I, I think when you, when you see and observe
that as a child, it lays down things in you which become your
(22:10):
belief system. And we're still a very close
family. You know, some of my siblings
are my best friends. And I guess The thing is that it
perhaps did instill in me is this idea that given you shall
receive, which is really important.
And, and I'm, I'm actually, you know, practicing Christian as
(22:31):
well. So that's infected me hugely.
This this principle of if you give to others it it it does
come back to you 100%. Yeah, and you've reminded me,
Tom, of there. There was another moment in our
conversation that I'll perhaps remind you of because we were
(22:52):
talking about, you were talking.You were talking to me about
perhaps wanting to look at acquiring other businesses and
expanding your, your clinics. And we got talking about the
financial side of it. And you explained to me very
clearly, you know, I think I asked you again, why do you
(23:13):
want, why do you want more money?
And I don't know if you remember, but you, you said to
me situations come up. For example, I think you said a
friend of mine's daughter is really struggling at the moment.
And I, you know, I'm helping outand I want to be able to do that
without any, without it being a problem.
You know, I want to personally be financially stable enough
(23:36):
that I can give the time and if necessary, I can support with
funds as well. And I remember smiling and
saying, oh, that's why you don'thave an issue with earning
money. And I didn't mean because it's a
really altruistic sounding reason, because it's easy to go,
OK, well, of course he doesn't have issues about money because
he's talking about a really, really good thing to do with his
(23:57):
money. I think what struck me more was
that you were crystal clear as to what that would create for
you, which was essentially spacefor the things that were
important to you. And you know, this, this type of
way of being happens to be the thing that's really important to
you. But the model still works if if
the motivations are slightly different.
(24:17):
But what was apparent to me was how crystal clear you were about
that. Yeah, no.
And I think that there, that's one point like you mentioned,
but there's, there's a second. And, and those I think are the
two fundamental things that Get Me Out of bed in the morning and
push and be ambitious and to, and not just sit back and do
(24:39):
something that's easy. I mean, it's an interesting one.
I, I've never seen myself as an entrepreneur, not for one
moment. My, my comfort zone is academia,
I think. So if I'd have just gone through
the path of least resistance my whole career, I would be a
lecturer. And I've got some, some of my
(25:01):
best friends lecturers and it's a really fantastic role.
And it's something that I naturally would aggregate
towards, but I, I've learnt through my professional life
that the way to actually amass some extra, you know, some
decent capital is to go down thebusiness route.
So I've ended up in this almost by accident.
(25:25):
But the Seminole points that have developed in my mind as to
why, why am I doing this? Why not go and do something
that's easier? Why not just be stick with one
clinic? Why think about acquisition and
growth and generating more financial capital?
The one is selfish and the otherone is less selfish.
The first one, and I make no apologies for this, is time.
(25:50):
Because if by having things thatgenerate their income generating
that aren't attached to how muchI do work, I can then free up my
time to do other things, spend time with my children, go and do
teaching, look at other interesting opportunities,
(26:13):
explore things that few people get the chance to do in their
working life, travel, etcetera. Whatever it is, freeing up time
gives me the chance to then consider those as a starting
point. So that's the one.
The second is by having, you know, a good amount of extra
capital, the financial means to think creatively and act
(26:38):
creatively outside the box. Or, you know, we have a big
network and friends, colleagues,people from the church I go to,
my wife's Norwegian, so our friends in Norway.
So having that large network means you see needs, you see
people come up and maybe, you know, my one of my colleagues, a
(27:03):
close family member is going through some serious cancer
treatment. So if we could go and, you know,
buy them a trip to go on a holiday for a weekend, how cool
is that? I mean, there are a few people
who get the chance to have that much impact on people's lives.
And that's not from some sort oflike virtual signalling
perspective. You could do it completely
(27:23):
secretly, no one has to know. But you know, the, the small
ways where we've been able to dothat and let's say someone's got
a whip round and then we match funded it.
I'm going, Yep, bam, let's do it.
If we didn't have the cash in the bank to do that, we couldn't
act in that way quickly and be like, right, well, we're going
to, you know, if you see people in great need and that
occasionally comes over people'slives and you're powerless to
(27:45):
act, that's the frustration. And I, I found that one of the
most rewarding things that I've been able to do.
And I, I don't think I have beenup to much yet, but I really
intend to. And, and that is a massive
motivator for me because I, I think we get a limited time on
(28:05):
this earth and we really are just stewards for the money that
we are borrowing and having temporarily, you know, we can't
take it with us. It's not ours really.
I mean, there's some people might find this a bit Christiany
mumbo jumbo, but it's kind of like, well, it's God's money.
I'm borrowing it, I'm looking after it.
I've got to be a good steward ofwhat I have, whether that's a
lot or a little. And I can't be so wedded to it
(28:28):
that if it all disappeared tomorrow that oh, my life would
fall apart. No, I feel like it's got to be a
little bit of natural separation.
I'm doing my best and if I fall on good times, then great.
And if I don't, then I find a different path.
So for me, I guess my personal faith has implants that
massively and and also, like I said, my my family background
(28:57):
and seeing how my parents handled other people and.
Yeah, I'm, I'm having sorry to interrupt you, Tom, I'm having a
little bit of an internal battlehere listening to you.
And I'm a non Christian, but I, so there's a phrase I sometimes
use for myself when I'm thinkingabout, oh, what should I charge
(29:20):
for a service or, you know, how much of my time should I give
for this? And I've got into the habit of
asking myself, what would I needto charge in order to feel
generous? And what I mean is, you know, if
I under charge, am I going to feel resentful if I give too
much of my time for too little? Am I just going to feel, you
(29:42):
know, not generous about it? Whereas what will put me in a
state where I feel, yeah, this, you know, this feels good.
And I've got, I've got more to give.
And then I'm thinking, you know,your understanding of the
sentiment would be greater than mine.
But then I'm thinking of the notion that actually the
poorest, is it in Christianity, is it that it's more virtuous to
(30:08):
give when you have nothing? Yeah, that's that's the internal
battle I'm having. Oh, no.
Should I? Should I be waiting till I feel
generous? Or is the true path to feel
generous regardless? Yeah.
Well, that's, that's a very interesting question about and
that what value you, what price you put and what value you
(30:30):
attach to a service. And I don't see that as quite
the same question as generosity if I'm honest.
Maybe that's because I don't do coaching or or or work with
people in quite that same way. But when we set up services, we
are quite capitalist about it. I'm not going to pretend we're
not We we think right. What is a profit making
activity? What is the market rate for
(30:53):
that? Are we average in the market in
terms of our staff and their knowledge etcetera or are we
better? If we're a bit better, then
let's bump that price up a bit and make it reflect what the
customer is getting. And that is a fairly cut and dry
pricing model that we've always stuck by.
We don't, we don't pretend to bethe cheapest.
(31:16):
But in terms of, you know, at that point about generosity,
it's very interesting. I think what you're referring
to, there's a, there's a parableabout a widow that had like 2
pennies and she went and donatedthese two pennies and people
were scoffing and saying, oh, you're just giving 2 pennies.
That's worth nothing. But then Jesus had said to them,
(31:38):
he he'd reprimand them and said,look, this, this person is more
worthy because they've got so little and yet they're giving,
whereas other people would give loads more than that and they
wouldn't even feel it. Whereas if your question is
about is it more virtuous to youwhen you have little, I think
it's harder to to give when you have little.
(31:59):
And you know, we're not a massive conglomerate with, with
big pockets. You know, we're quite a small
operation, but I think it's morethe principle of saying, well,
if you say, well, I'll wait tillI've got loads and then I'll
give stuff to people or whateverit is that's that's in your mind
to do, you will never do it. That's the truth.
(32:24):
So action, I know you, you can buy into that because, you know,
you understand these principles,Joe.
But I think action is is the bigthing.
Yeah, just doing, doing it not. Thinking it, thinking it's not
enough. You've got to take action and
often that hits the wallet and then you find out like we're how
(32:44):
much do I actually care? And if I've got if I'm really
hard up and I'm like, you know, we can't well, can I give like
10 lbs. And this is something I've
learnt through my life to some degree is this business of it
will never be really fully convenient to to give people or
(33:07):
donate or whatever. And I'm not saying we should do
it just because it's another place.
I'm not going to refer too much to the Bible.
It's not evangelism. But in the other place it says
give general God loves the cheerful giver.
So rather than giving grudgingly.
(33:28):
That's in the Bible. God loves the cheerful giver.
Yeah, yeah. So, so it says, it says not not
out of necessity, not grudginglyor out of necessity or God loves
the ship or good. So it's been like, right, give
it happily. You know, if you're going to
give something, you want to figure out what you can afford,
right? Or, or what's reasonable.
(33:48):
Like we don't, there's some stuff we just don't, we don't.
Well, we can't do that because we haven't got the money to do
that. But we could do this and let's
support us. And if we put individuals that
we know, let's say staff members, I cannot tell you how
much of it it's meant the sentiment of knowing that you
have and they go, wow, you know,you guys have done a whip round
(34:10):
and OK, it's not thousands of pounds, it's a little sum.
But what it meant to them was far greater than the the sum of.
It meant you noticed me, you noticed I needed something and
you acted rather than just as you say.
Thought about it. Yeah, I love that.
I'm going to, I'm going to lighten things a little bit,
Tom, with the memory of a, something a physio said to me
(34:32):
about her dad once. I'm thinking about you saying
we're certainly not the cheapest.
So this physio's dad was a he was a builder.
And I can't remember why it cameup in conversation, but she was
telling me, I, I don't think maybe we were trying to think up
strap lines for the business. And she said her dad, for all
his working years, he had this van and, and across the top of
(34:52):
the van, it said his business name.
And then it said we're not the cheapest, we're certainly not
the best. She said the number of double
takes, that it was the best marketing line ever and people
trying to work it out. Well, they do say in marketing
you need to stand out, don't they?
So you know, oh, 'cause a few work prices.
(35:16):
So we talked a little bit about the people that work for you and
I'm starting to feel how lucky those those people are, Tom, but
were you, when you, when you think about supporting that
people, supporting the people that work with you for you, does
(35:37):
it bring up memories of you as ayounger physio or, you know, do
you take them all? You've already said they're
individuals with different motivations.
How do you manage that sense of responsibility and and what sort
of things other than what you'vealready mentioned do you do?
So in in managing like managing.Yeah.
(36:00):
So you've said you're, you're aware that you're aware of the
needs and the different personalities of the people
working for you. Apologies.
Talking of builders, I've got some building work going on.
Is it coming across on? There.
No, I can't. I can't hear it.
Oh, good, good. Yeah, I asked.
I asked you too many questions in one.
So let's start with the first thing I said was does it bring
back memories of things that youwish you'd been supported with
(36:22):
when you were coming up through the the more junior ranks of
being a physio? Yeah, I think, I think I was a
relatively uncomplicated and fairly thick skinned sort of
apprentice in in some senses. So I I, you know, I was lucky I
(36:46):
guess in that sense. Not everyone is has it so easy
and I also know that a lot of people suffer with imposter
syndrome and a weight of responsibility as a clinician.
That's not uncommon and that's actually not wrong at all.
So, you know, that's one of the first things we speak to our new
(37:08):
starters about when they first joined.
We set out some ground rules, which is the obvious stuff, as
you would, I'm sure you'd appreciate no such thing as a
stupid question. There's an open door policy.
You have a responsibility to askon behalf of other people who
may be too worried to ask. And so that setting those kind
(37:33):
of ground rules, if you like these principles, we hope to
instill that into people and just be like, you're not
expected to know everything straight away.
In fact, if you did, there'd be something a bit weird going on
because this is supposed to be aprofession where you're
continuously learning probably throughout your whole career and
developing. And as soon as you stop
learning, then we have to ask why, what's going on there?
(37:56):
So I often just say to people, look, if you know this much,
then that's absolutely fine. And also another principle we
talk about is show your strong side to your patients and your
weak side to your colleagues, because we don't need to show
each other on strong sizes. We can be like, I have no idea
what I'm doing with this patient.
I think really healthy, really important.
(38:17):
Of course, you can still presenta confident front to the
patients and instill them with that sense that you know what
you're doing. But in terms of feeling safe,
feeling confident, feeling happy, our clinical lead, Ed, he
says no one should be going homeat the end of the day and
thinking about their caseload atnight or that patient or no one
(38:38):
should ever do that. So he's been drumming that into
our team and saying if you are not sure, call me, 9:00 at
night, call me. So he's a fantastic clinical
lead at Brown and another one where if stuff goes wrong, he's
there straight away. So he's not on people all the
(38:58):
time. But I think that's a really nice
management style, just being like to set some ground rules.
So that's one thing. The other thing in terms of how
to manage people, I'll tell you what, I, I've been learning that
and I'm still learning that all the time.
And I, I, I can't say I feel like I get it right all the
time, Joe, But one thing I have learned is through experiences.
(39:22):
Being managed by other people, both good and bad, has really
taught me a lot through my junior years.
One was a really painful experience where for about a
year and a half I was managed inan NHS role by a woman with a
burden, probably a personality disorder.
And she was extremely micromanaging, extremely
(39:49):
aggressive if anything went wrong, almost like she was
panicking that it would come back on her desk somehow.
And you got that feeling of her being completely suffocated,
brought into her office, and then almost going out in tears
again because you felt like you were you were being.
Yeah, being hauled across the coast, you didn't really realise
(40:09):
that you've done wrong. So experiencing those extremes
and that is quite an extreme case, I think then teaches you
the case of going 0 hang on, most people are insecure.
Most people are are needing twice as much positive
reinforcement as as they are critique.
(40:31):
And I didn't appreciate that, I think for many years because I
am quite a naturally confident person And, and that's not my
fault. That's the way I'm made.
And I'm not saying that's an advantage all the time either.
I got marked down in my first placement because they said, oh,
you're just too confident. And we just don't like that.
You're not asking questions. And, and a massive personality
clash with this quiet, you know,mousy physio who was my
(40:55):
supervisor. And I was completely unaware of
what the vibe was giving across.And I had to learn that.
So I was like, OK, so you're a slightly overbearing, slightly
confident personality. Be conscious and aware of the
other people. Most people aren't like that.
So you learn this about yourselfand and how you the the image
you portray as well. So I guess having bad
(41:17):
experiences has taught me what not to do and taught me that you
have to handle people with real care and sensitivity.
Everyone doesn't matter if they're coming across in a
confident way or not. Underneath the surface, most
people are insecure a little bitand are needing a lot of
(41:38):
positive reinforcement, even people who've been physios for
30 odd years. I don't care that everyone needs
to be complimented, told when they're doing a good job.
And the other thing is I was at the Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre
for quite a few years, which is in Oxfordshire.
It's a big sort of orthopaedic department.
I work there, I know it will. You did.
Of course you did. So Colette Tracy was the manager
(42:03):
there and I thought she was absolutely fantastic.
She wasn't your best mate, she never tried to be.
She kept professional distance, which I respected, but she was
warm and she always had your back.
When I went on paternity leave for example, she she called me
up. She always had your back and she
focused on accountability. So we had clinical reasoning
(42:25):
sessions once a week and she would quiz you, query stuff.
And it was a bit sort of uncomfortable, I'm not going to
lie, but it was a bit like, you know, you need to learn this.
And she didn't apologise for setting high standards.
So she set high standards, she backed them up.
But then she created an environment which was warm and
(42:45):
it was supportive. She, you, you felt like she
wanted you to succeed. And as a manager, if you can
give people the sense that you want them to succeed, you want
them to thrive, you want them togo places, I think it allows you
to more room to then say, well, no, you didn't do that right?
And you, that needs to be bettermore because right in their gut
(43:07):
they feel like this person wantsmy best and they want me to do
well. Yeah, and Colette, if you happen
to be listening, then thank you for me too.
I think I was probably in your care, Colette, at a time where I
was less up together than Tom. I was a very junior physio when
I was with. I don't.
Think so. I remember how tolerant she was
(43:31):
of my slightly random existence in my early 20s, and she was
great. And you know, like you, Tom, I
just remember, is this really? I remember her very steady
influence. I remember her slightly
quizzical looks when she clearlythought, what the hell is this
girl up to now? But yeah, so supportive and.
(43:52):
And yeah, just the real steadiness that I needed at that
time. So thank you, Collette.
If you're listening, I don't think I ever got a chance to
thank you. One conversation I need to share
is that she surprised me. So I get a lot of stick when I
left from the whole team. It was unexpected.
I was, I was leaving to go into the private practice and, and a
freelance and they were shocked.They were absolutely shocked
(44:14):
because I thought I'd be here. I was talking about masters and
going to specialist role and my supervisor at the time, Simon,
he, he bought me a helium balloon that had Darth Vader on
it in the I was going, it was the dark side, the dark.
Side. And it was it, yeah, it was a it
was a who are. But Colette took me to her
(44:37):
office and she said, I think you're doing the right thing and
I think this will give you loadsof opportunities.
And I think I'm going to give you my blessing and say, you
know, you're going to do great. So I suddenly thought, you know,
the weight was lifted off my shoulders and guilt and all that
sort of stuff. And she really helped me and
sent me on my way with with fullbacking and talked a bit about
(44:58):
an experience that she'd had where she could have gone down
the same route. And if she'd had her time again,
she might have done that as well.
So I was like, OK, if this is good enough Galette, then maybe
it's good enough for me. And that suddenly just made me a
whole lot happier about it. She probably doesn't make that
conversation, but it, it, it laid down something in me.
And I think it's important to remember this.
As managers, we're in a positionof authority.
(45:21):
And sometimes these conversations which we think
don't matter, they, they actually are pretty like
foundational for people. Yeah, well, listen, from time
sticking on, I'm going to draw the conversation to a close.
But as I do, I'm going to take apage out of your book and, and
the positive reinforcement page,because the more I hear about
what you do, Tom, and how you doit, then, you know, I think I
(45:44):
want to congratulate you and say, you know, I think you're,
you're going about things in an amazing way and talking about it
in this way. Possibly you might
underestimate, I think, the value of other people running
businesses, thinking of setting up visitors, existing in
businesses or NHS organisations.You know, the more we talk about
(46:06):
what good leadership, good people management, good self
management is, the better. And yeah, I really want to
congratulate you for for what you're doing in your physio
world and and the rest of your world.
Thank you, Jo. I really appreciate that.
Thank you so much for being a guest.
I really appreciate your time, Tom.
(46:26):
My pleasure, thanks for having me on.
Take care. I'll see.
You in a few weeks. Bye for now.
Bye. Well, I hope you enjoyed that
conversation. I said.
We covered a lot of ground from clinic, clinic management to
Christianity. I really enjoyed it and I
genuinely meant what I said at the end.
I really admire what Tom's doingin the world, or perhaps more
(46:48):
what Tom is being in the world. And I really appreciate his
willingness to to talk about that.
Let me know what you thought. Tell me which bits you
identified with. Tell me if your experiences of
working for people and or managing people are similar or
different. Yeah, let me know what you
(47:09):
thought. So whichever side of those
various fences you sit on, I am sure if you're a clinician that
you are giving in many spheres of your life all day everyday.
And as I always say, please do not forget yourself in that
little ecosystem because just like all the other people, you
definitely matter. Here at Physio Matters, we think
(47:44):
physio matters. Become a member today and access
the biggest MSK library on the planet.
Access at home, work or in the gym to make sure your CPD
conditioning is elite. Physiohyphenmatters.com More
content than will fit on a deadlift bar.
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