April 13, 2025 • 55 mins
Matt Phillips has a modern approach to the treatment of runners. It doesn't involve tech or new treatment potocols - the main distinction in Matt's approach is an acknowledgement of the potential impact of a client's mental and wellbeing state, on their running performance and recovery from injury. With this in mind, Matt and I discuss the benefits of this approach to you, as well as your clients. Allowing yourself to take longer to get to the route of the problem, to do less in a session, and to accept that you may be just a part of this person's recovery. We also talked about the magic of collaborating with colleagues so that together you can navigate these new ways of working and of talking about how you work.
Contacts for Matt
Across social media @runchatlive
STA Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/sports-therapy-association-podcast/id1540427581
On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/09vmcVVDN1lrq1kQ3ExXWJ
Link for Coaching Unpeeled https://buytickets.at/mehab/1520869
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hello, and welcome to You Matter.
Hello and welcome to this latestepisode of You Matter with
sports therapist Matt Phillips. Matt is ostensibly going to be
talking about managing work withrunners, but because it's the
(00:25):
You Matter podcast, the conversation really is around
working with runners and adopting an approach that
supports your well-being and definitely the well-being of
your client as well. It actually is a discussion that
could be applied to working withany kind of client or patient
(00:46):
and could probably be applied togeneral life and management of
your own self-care and attitudesto change and things like that.
So I really hope you enjoy the episode, sit back, enjoy it, and
I'll be back at the end. So hello and welcome to this
latest episode of You Matter, where I am absolutely delighted
(01:09):
to return a favour actually because my guest Matt Phillips
had me and Joanne Elfenstein as a guest on his podcast recently.
And we just had such a great time with Matt.
He is an absolutely brilliant host.
We enjoyed the experience and really appreciated his style of
hosting, making us feel really welcome, asking great questions.
(01:30):
So Matt, hello, it is a great pleasure to reciprocate and have
you on You Matter. Thanks very much.
Now it was. It was.
It was doubly as much fun for meas it was for you and and
Joanne. So yeah, that's, that's great.
It's, it's no, it's an honour and a pleasure to be a part of
this. Obviously, you know, I'm a
massive fan and lovely work. So it's great.
I really appreciate the invite. Thanks, Matt.
(01:51):
So for those of you that don't know, Matt Phillips is a sports
therapist by trade, creator of Run Chat Live.
That's his business. And also, as we've just
intimated, host of the Soft Tissue Association podcast,
which amazingly goes out every week.
And Matt just told me he's passed 230 episodes.
(02:14):
So if you haven't checked out that podcast yet, do you go
there's a huge. Amount of sports therapy
association. Oh, I just think, what did I
say? What did I said?
Soft tissue. Didn't we?
Oh, it's very confusing these days.
That's part of the problem of our industry.
But yeah, we are. Wrote that on my bit of paper as
well. That's fine.
It's it's a problem. Sports Therapy Association with
a podcast, not website Yes. OK, so today's conversation is
(02:39):
generally about runners. It's about assessing runners.
It's for anybody that works withrunners.
We're going to be talking about injury and prevention with
runners. So you know, all of you
listening I'm sure will come across runners in some way,
shape or form and I'm sure an awful lot of you are runners
(02:59):
yourself. But as ever on this podcast, my
take on it is always what does this mean about clinician
well-being? What's in it, you know, under
that topic? And we will get to that very
soon. But Matt, before we do that,
could you just outline a little bit for me in a bit more detail
what you do and and how you got to this stage?
(03:23):
Yep, sure. So how far do we go back on
Tottenham Court Road in the 1990s doing a YMCA fitness
instructor certificate? That just makes me think of
great record shops. It was.
A great area to study, but yeah,and it goes back to there,
somebody who didn't do very wellin their A levels, mainly
because I was introduced to girls or young women when I was
(03:45):
16, suddenly in sixth form. And yeah, 2 didn't combine very
well. You know, you can imagine I was
learning too much communication in those two years rather than
actually studying. But yeah, so I ended up, but it
was fine because I wouldn't knowwhat to have done anyway, but
ended up getting into gyms because I was very much into
that and martial arts. And that basically led to me
(04:06):
eventually doing National Academy of Sports Medicine.
We've fast forwarded to around 2003 now certified personal
training work with David Lloyd for about 5 or 6 years.
And that was that was it was great time because 2003 was the
time when kind of guru took off.I think it was probably combined
(04:26):
with the Internet. That's when you had your pool
checks, even ASM, you had your Gary Gray's Gray Institute.
And suddenly, probably no discredit to them, but because
of the Internet, suddenly we started getting people becoming
too famous and too followed and always cult status.
And I actually, yeah, I, I was guilty of jumping on the train
because I was still then at an age where I just worshipped
(04:49):
these people coming over from California to teach us with
their incredible posture and super buff natural and physics.
And, and, but then I realised maybe a couple of years later,
thanks to rubbing shoulders witha lot of people like yourself
and the rest of the Twitter crewaround that era to 1415.
That's a lot of the stuff which was coming out there with core
(05:11):
stability and the whole kind of Paul Hodges work with transverse
abdominis and activating and allof that, getting people to
squand footballs. And all of this stuff which I
was preaching and making good money out of was actually a bit
questionable. And we kind of, it was the same
time as the fascia research. I'd also got involved in soft
tissue therapy because I wanted to kind of get involved with
that as well, as well as the rehab side of things.
(05:33):
So, and that was the same repeatstory.
I, I worked my way up and the massage stuff was very nice,
very holistic. Again, a few of these
traditional ideas which we have to kind of move on a bit from
like breaking up scar tissue, etcetera.
But then I did the level 5 out of interest just to get myself
up there. And that was full of an awful
(05:54):
lot of, of misconceptions and kind of structuralist based
ideas, which again, I realised, well, what is, what's going on
here? There's a theme here.
I've been taught stuff and realising I'm having to question
my own identity. And it's, I'm OK now because I'm
old and, and withered and I can accept it.
But at that age, I remember twice paying money and learning
something, which then made me question myself and what was I
(06:15):
doing and felt very disempowering.
And also with runners. I mean, when I, I was runner
myself and decided to settle down working with runners and
the same thing happened again. I got involved in gait analysis.
We were one of the first gait analysis clinics on the South
Coast using kind of 3D gait analysis.
And once again there's me prettymuch selling the whole
overpronation idea and getting involved in Shoe Prescription.
(06:36):
And then Ian Griffiths turns up and questions me about
overpronation. And thanks to him and other
great podiatrists and Craig Payne and people like that and
Simon Bartle that educated me. But again, I was like, what is
it about people telling me stuffthat isn't true?
And that kind of cutting a long story a little bit shorter kind
of put me in the position where I really wanted to help
(06:59):
clinicians deal with that. Because I through through
getting into the trade and like I say, in the 90s and having to
go through these experiences, realized how distressing it can
be and how it makes you want to Chuck everything away.
And the whole imposter syndrome,I think it's still prevalent in
society today, unfortunately. Education might be getting a bit
(07:19):
better thanks to the kind of people we know in common.
Like I remember that's the area Mike Grice with regards to soft
tissue 3. But there's still awful an awful
lot of information being put outthere, either unintentionally or
these days with the Internet andthe ease is to build a business
intentionally bad information that just sells with click bait.
So that's my role now. I I I also teach.
(07:42):
I hold the gate courses and everything, but everything
really, I'm just, I try and be apleasant conduit of education
and information to help people realise they haven't got to
throw everything out. They're still amazing
individuals. We're not tweaking that much,
but what we are tweaking could make a huge difference to not
just your clients but also to you and your well-being.
(08:02):
Yeah, I think you dread that line brilliantly, Matt.
So it's when you say I help clinicians with that.
What I'm hearing is this sort oftwo strands to what you do.
There is there teaching people to work with runners and then
there's helping them with the, the identity stuff that might
come up that you've just described that, you know, some
(08:24):
of, I imagine what you're teaching now might challenge
some people's view based on whatthey've been learning before.
So is that a correct assumption that this kind of, you know,
teaching the work and then there's supporting the clinician
as they learn these new approaches?
Definitely, I think so. And we are in an era where
particularly after COVID, which kind of made everyone a little
(08:44):
bit, or most people a little bitmore fragile, it also kind of
augmented the amount of communication between
therapists, which is a wonderfulthing.
I think people are more receptive now to listen to each
other, which is great. But again, it's how the quality
information that's getting put out there is really important as
well. So I, what I try and do is, I
mean, through the podcast, I've,I've got my dream job of talking
(09:05):
to people like yourselves and other experts.
And I absorb it all and analyse it.
And then I just try and put thattogether with my own experience
to help other people who all need slightly different things,
which is, you know, important aswell.
There's no one perfect CPD or, or presentation for everybody.
It's just reacting to the personin front of you, which is what
we should be doing with our withour patients and clients as
(09:26):
well. That's the big thing.
I think of one thing that is my personal bug is we preach about
how we're supposed to be lookingafter clients and patient
centred and all that and and treating them with wonderful
language and and empathy. But on social media in
particular, when it comes to therapists helping other
therapists, most of it these days, tragically is mocking
(09:47):
somebody else or calling somebody else out saying how
rubbish poo poohing it. I hate the word like BS in the
post because it's everything we did 10 years ago could be
classified as BS. It's not.
It's just something we've evolved from.
So I'm very I'm probably overprotective of that.
I think therapists need to be kinder to therapists if if,
especially if their goal is education and helping our
(10:08):
industry move forwards. We should treat each other as
we're supposed to be treating our clients.
Why do you think that is? You know, why would we do that
to each other when we're in the business of, as you say,
actively not doing it to the patients and the clients that we
work with? You know what?
I shouldn't be a hypocrite because I vote about this in in
(10:30):
the wonderful MSK mag at the beginning of the year and I
wrote a piece saying gait analysis is a waste of time.
And it was it, it was an ironic kind of title.
I didn't mean that at all. Gate analysis, this is very
useful. It's just not for the reasons we
thought. But my point of writing was in
2013, fourteen, I, I was guilty myself in the first early
therapy Expos of feeling like I had so much to say in so little
(10:54):
time. And it was very much a pedestal.
And I would use graphics and, and probably all of my
communication skills in a slightly sinister evil way of
kind of mocking what was missing.
I don't even like using the wordmyth anymore because to me that
is is it's a nasty way of of judging something, making it
sound like it's a fairy tale andit's something that never
(11:14):
existed. It's not.
It's just things we've evolved from.
So, and I looked back at that, Ithought I wouldn't change it
because that was just me at the time.
But now the last two or three times at therapy experiment
definitely my course much more now is about not mocking
anything. You know the same way as with
clients. We should never say, oh, the
last person you went to was obviously an idiot.
They don't know what they're talking about because the
(11:36):
client's going to go I don't like you inside internally and
we shouldn't do it to each otheras therapists.
So I think some people still maybe stuck that it's for good
intention. They think that by exhibiting
the poor information out there and maybe in a slightly mocking
way, that maybe that informalityhelps create a bond and alliance
(11:56):
with your fellow therapists. Maybe it's, I'm sure there's
good intention. I know there is.
I know people who know that I, Iwince when I see their posts and
emoticons and things and smiley faces and I hate all the
comments that come with it of all the people laughing and kind
of it's packed mentality which drives me mad.
So I think it's it's a good intention, but for me I don't, I
think it's probably holding healthcare back on a level
(12:18):
higher than a lot of people realise.
That's that's an angle I wanted to pick up actually, that
holding healthcare back because you're right, there has been
this fairly toxic element to therapist to therapist
communication. But I suppose I also have a bit
of sympathy for what I sense is a frustration of people holding
(12:44):
on too long, even in the face ofnew evidence.
And that might be directed as anger at the person expressing
that thing. But I, I guess the bit I do have
some sympathy with is impatiencein a lot of us.
You know, I'm, I'm nearly 30 years into this career now, and
I wanted things to change when Iwas 21.
(13:07):
And some of them have, but a lotof them haven't.
And, you know, do you agree thatsometimes the the frustration is
actually, you know, come on, guys.
You know, there are better places to go than this.
We don't need to hold onto that stuff out of fear.
I do and and I don't get as frustrated these days because I
(13:30):
see it in the same way as a therapist getting frustrated
that their client or patient hasn't done the the exercises.
We know that non compliance is abig issue.
I used to as a younger therapistgo how are they?
How are they going to get betterif they don't do what I tell
them? And you and you lay the blame on
the patient when reality it's because you've given them too
(13:52):
much. You haven't explained the
importance of it in that you haven't said it the right time.
It's always to do with behaviourchange in that and the classic
elements of of of coaching. So I kind of see it the same
way. Yes, it's frustrating if you see
the industry isn't changing, butI'd also at my age now reflect
and think, am I is what I'm doing actually helping these
(14:13):
people change? Or maybe my exclamation Marks
and my shouts and my swaying or whatever it is.
Maybe that isn't helping as manypeople as I thought, you know,
because I don't. If we look at education, which I
love the parallels between education and and therapy,
because it's it is, there's so many parallels in terms of
(14:33):
eliciting responses and not kindof directing, but kind of
working together. I can't think of one instance
where shouting at somebody or belittling someone else actually
helps in education. The people in your class or your
lecture or whatever, some of them might cheer you and be fan
people, but most of them are notgoing to learn, you know,
they're not going to take anything away.
They're not going to reflect andit's not helping them become
(14:54):
more critical or thoughtful. So I think it's up to us to
realise if, if, yeah, your original question.
So if, if, if the industry is not changing or certain people
aren't changing, then I'd take that more as a, oh, how can I
reframe what I'm saying to actually help them?
You know, maybe it should be done face to face instead of
through social media. Hey, who?
Who would have thought, You know.
So yeah, I get the frustration. A really good point, yeah.
(15:18):
Are we actually part of the problem?
Are we creating the conditions and the environment that allow
people to move into that quite uncomfortable space of realising
some of the things you held dearare perhaps needing a bit of a
reframe and it will move on? Yeah, that's a very, very good
point. So let's take this back to
(15:40):
working with runners. What would be more helpful to
talk about, Matt? We could either talk initially
about specifically the things you do teach that are perhaps
different to what you might havelearned or taught in the past,
or you might feel it's more helpful just to go straight into
(16:02):
talking about why that's actually relevant for clinician
well-being and helping them create this identity shift.
Do we? I guess my question is, do we
need to do the background of what you're actually teaching
and talk about talking about in respect to treating runners?
I don't. Think, I think I could summarise
it quite easily and the fact it's runners it could apply to.
(16:25):
Basically it's, it's a evolutionmoving on from the whole
structures approach, blaming issue and the tissue sort of
thing, which is well documented and people have been talking
about it for a long time. It's just with running industry,
it's, it's just even more intensified because, well,
because of a few factors. I mean, running has the highest
prevalence of injury out of any sport depending on the date.
(16:48):
Yeah, it's huge. And it's, when you look at the
actual data, it differs quite a lot because of what population
you're looking at or, or what you regard as a running injury,
should a blister be part of the sample or whatever.
So if you take a midline, it boils down to more or less, if I
remember rightly, something like3 running related injuries every
(17:09):
20 weeks of running, which is pretty poor.
It's like that's means you're going to have to pay somebody or
look for help or something or not be able to do what you love
doing three times every kind of 20 weeks.
Which I think if if you did thaton any other sport, you'd give
up or go home or just not pay for any more.
But the thing with running is you don't have to pay for
anything and you can go out any day you like.
(17:30):
All you need is a pair of shoes which you don't have to
necessarily spend a fortune on. So there is a danger of being
able to do it too much too soon,too often and that whole sort of
thing. But because there's such a high
pool of injury, I think that opens the doors to all sorts of
manner of ways of helping these people.
And there is there's a new way of stopping certain running
(17:54):
related injuries. Every time you turn on the
Internet or something, there's some new way of doing it.
Because the fact is the thing that interests me is not so much
the prevalence, it's the fact that hasn't really come down
much since the 1980s, which is another interesting fact.
Which means that despite all thestuff we're doing and have been
doing with the technology, there's something we're still
missing. And for me, it seems the more I
(18:14):
look into it seems more glaringly obvious.
But the data's starting to realise now that when, although
like 10 years ago or 20 years ago, it's all about dismissing
the, the, the asymmetry, just dismissing the bio mechanics.
Or rather we haven't got proof that just because you've got
femoral reduction, internal rotation, then some people will
get telephone pain, some people won't and some people with the
(18:37):
perfect running form still get injured.
So, but we didn't have much to replace it.
But what I love about research being done now is they are
looking at the mental health of the person.
They're doing kind of questionnaires to see about that
person's mental well-being, how they feel.
And there's some really interesting data coming up
showing links between someone's actual kind of psychological
(18:57):
profile compared to how likely they are to get injured.
And I think that's, I think that's probably why we've got so
much difference in, in the biomechanical side of things,
because you can have 560 runnersand, and, and put them through
what you feel is the same kind of control, but they've all got
all sorts of different memories and things going in their lives,
(19:18):
all sorts of different ecosystems.
So it's not surprising. I think, I think that's the fact
we're missing out on that. Some of them get injured and
some of them don't, regardless of how they're moving.
So when it comes to helping runners and, and working out why
someone's getting injured or whythey've got a higher, they seem
to be, have a higher risk of getting injured by doing a
certain thing in a certain shoe at a certain time.
(19:39):
I think it really does boil downto seeing what makes that
individual person in front of you tick.
I think that's what's missed outso much through education and
this kind of structural approach.
We're still making a hypothesis from the objective assessment.
We're still looking at how they move rather than as you and
(20:01):
Joanne sort of demonstrate and and exemplify through coaching,
is sitting back and letting the runner tell us or not even the
runner, the person tell us what's going on.
Where that kind of psychosocial load is coming from?
And I love that that's your answer.
Why? Why didn't I expect that answer?
Gosh, that's yeah, I'm almost, you know, surprised at myself
(20:23):
that I didn't expect that. But I love that that's the
first, you know, extra factor that you are bringing in there,
of course. So taking that sort of mental
state, mental well-being elementinto consideration, well, would
it be OK if we assume that that is indicative of one of the
(20:47):
major differences in the way that you might teach?
That's why I call my course a modern approach to gait analysis
is because it is. I'm very much focusing.
I'm not forgetting the bio mechanics.
You need to learn the gait cycle.
You need to learn causes and things about engine management.
But you really, it's not just accepting that there's a person
(21:10):
and, and treating the runner as opposed to the running injury.
It's now opening the doors to what's not simple at all.
But now you suddenly get into behaviour change.
You're getting into like coaching, you're getting into
how to help this per how to 1st discover how that individual is
going to reveal what they need, because that could take a lot of
work. And then you got to work out
when the right time to start, you know, making these changes,
(21:32):
the suggested behaviour changes and keeping them happening
because and then, and then you've got on top of that,
that's an area where a lot of therapists are just not skilled
with and there's a danger here. It's all very well me saying, Oh
yeah, you've got to treat the individual or not.
The only injury. How the hell do I do that?
And that can lead to even more imposter syndrome and people
worrying about can I still charge this person fifty 6070
(21:53):
lbs if we're just having a chat.And that's kind of brings in
the, I try it a lot of my course.
I keep saying it in the last course, I must have said it 100
times. It's just about my biggest goal
is building your confidence. Some of you might have walked in
here thinking you're the most confident person in the world,
but I'm putting thoughts your ways, which are going to strip
away that confidence you had because I'm taking the power out
(22:14):
of your hands now. And I'm, I'm creating this power
you're going to need in your ears and maybe a little bit more
in the mouth. So it's, it's a new world.
And and yeah. So that's what my modern
approach is. Yeah.
And. Yeah, I'd be no surprise that
that's all music to my ears. And, you know, the phrases that
spring to mind are that you're, you're accepting that you're
(22:37):
working with uncertainty and, and then rather than telling
yourself that now you've got impostor syndrome, it's just,
no, I'm, I'm just dealing with uncertainty and I'm staying with
it. And that's going to naturally
give me feelings. It doesn't mean there's anything
wrong. Yes.
And your, your bit about can I still charge the person the same
price for this? I don't know about you, but
(22:59):
quite often for me that questioncomes on the back of a
realisation that you'll probablybe doing less within a session,
or in theory achieving less or taking longer to get to the
point of knowing what to put into a rehab program or when to
start it even. Is that.
Is that all in a line with what you're saying?
(23:21):
Definitely and it's and it's, and it's a little bit dangerous
as well because not only are youhaving to manage that, but your
client or patients got expectations as well.
They've been bought up for the whole of their lives thanks to
the kind of our medical way of doing things of that you are
going to do something to them. They're going to have some
physio, they're going to take a pill, get an injection.
So you've got to be careful thatyou're not giving this all
(23:42):
wonderful new stuff. The client and, and they came
along just wanting a massage or they wanted you to fix them in
two sessions. So it's it's, it's a tricky
area. It's not undoable, it's just
you've got to be. You yourself have got to change
your frame of mind in order to make these behaviour changes
before you can help your clientsmaybe.
And do you get the situation? We definitely get it in Vizio.
(24:04):
I want to have it reflected backto me.
Or well, I started introducing this process and the client's
face was just, you know, what the hell is going on here?
And some clients actually sayingthis isn't what I came for.
You know, I'm used to this and Iwant this.
How do you help people deal withthat?
I guess it's a confrontation of sorts.
(24:27):
Yeah, we talk about that in the course.
I think a lot of it is in the preparation.
A lot of it is tweaking what's on your website.
It's about maybe doing more pre calls before they come in.
You've you've got to make that what's going to happen.
Well, no, that's totally not true at all.
You're not going to say what's going to happen at all.
You've got to kind of get acrossto them that it is a flexible
(24:49):
fluid state where depending on what information they give you,
your treatment may change. You're going to be working with
them. And then there's it's it's not
an easy sale. It's far easier website with
bullet points of we fix this, you've got sciatica.
We'll do this much easier and itcan look much nicer.
It's much less fluffy, but that's something which This is
why I think collaboration reallycomes into it.
(25:11):
And again, thanks to guests, I did an episode with Andy Hosgood
and Andy Thomas and it was all about collaboration.
And I think a great way, the best way for clinicians to put
these strategies into place is just to talk to each other.
You know, because the worst you can do is try and redesign your
whole website, try and reinvent the wheel where if you talk to
(25:32):
the other five therapists in your area with, without fear
saying what you're thinking you're doing, three of them will
probably go, oh, I'm so glad yousaid that.
I've got the same thing going on.
I listened to that podcast as well with the Sports Therapy
Association podcast. How do we do this?
And that's just that's that thatcould save so much problem and
anguish and beating yourself up and getting things wrong.
And that's what we should all bedoing.
(25:53):
I mean, it sounds again, easier than than than in reality,
because there's a lot of fear and worry about sharing these
details with the competition. It is something which I think
can really help. And once you open that door and
start collaborating, I think as Andy's, the Andy's were saying,
that fear you had initially started disappearing pretty
quickly because you realise, whydid I do this before?
(26:15):
This is ridiculous. It's it really helps.
I think that does speak to a wayto facilitate significant change
within professions as well. Because I was about to ask you a
question which you've just answered in a wait, no, it's
great. I was going to ask.
(26:36):
So when you're with a client in that confrontation or no, not in
the confrontation, when you talked about copy on your
website or maybe how you might talk to a client when they're
first with you, I wondered whether you might overtly say,
excuse me, I work in this way. And it might be very different
to other therapists that you've seen, which, you know, on the
face of it is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
(26:57):
But on the other side, you couldsay, well, that's you slightly
passively dissing what other people do.
As opposed to the way I took your answer when you're talking
about collaboration is if we're talking to each other and
saying, oh, you know what? How have you expressed this on
your website and how do you talkto patients?
So that actually we're just saying this is how we're going
(27:18):
to work together. Not it's different to anything
else or it's different how I used to work.
It's, it's the more of us that are saying this is how I work.
That then becomes more of the normal of what people are
reading and hearing. Maybe, you know, that's one of
the one of the ways, not the way, one of the ways we start to
make significant shifts together.
(27:41):
I think that's important. I mean, not I was born, I don't
know why or where it came from, but I was kind of born a bit of
a lingua file. I was doing debating at school
when I was 10. I loved it.
I was a total geek. It was almost like band camping.
I was there were trophies involved?
From there to Tottenham Court Road and being for girls.
What a shame, but. I love, I naturally, I, I, I
sometimes, oh, I will sometimes spend far too long analysing and
(28:03):
arguing over the use of words and how important it is to
either evidence based instead ofevidence informed where other
people just go. It's not important.
And, and I, I think it's healthyfor people to question the words
they're using on the website andthe impact that can have on, on
the readers. So if it doesn't come naturally
for you, somebody who is experienced in that, they can
solve your problem like that just by saying, put this word
(28:25):
in, like you just said. I mean, as soon as you said I
don't work the same as other therapists, I think it's a
massive danger with runners because runners are so used to
being let down because a lot of the stuff they're given doesn't
work to the extent that they don't trust therapists.
They don't. I mean, we've got a whole world
now that doesn't even trust science.
So I mean, it's it's pretty tricky out there at the moment.
(28:47):
So if you start saying I do thisslightly differently, they're
going to think, here we go, another advertising gimmick
here, you know, So yeah, you can't start comparing yourself
to other people. You've just got to say what we
do here is and we'll be working with you and yeah, just not even
suggest that you have evolved orchanged or modified yourself.
(29:08):
You don't need an evidence informed stamp on your website
or you know, it's, it's yeah, I mean, it's your territory.
It's all about speaking and the coaching and the listening and
and the and the clients and the patients won't care.
A lot of this worry comes out ofyou.
I think they just want to, they just want to see an end to their
pain or run faster or so it's yeah.
(29:28):
No, you're right. I mean, you know how much I love
Joanna Elfinstein's work. And you know something she
repeatedly says to people, it's not about you, It's it's about
the client in front of you and what works for them.
And of course, with this approach, there will be some
people for whom that approach isnever going to work.
And it's hard when you're starting out in a new business.
(29:49):
And I work with a lot of people setting up new businesses with
this approach. And they're from where they're
going to put some people off, which they will, but they've got
to, if they're ever going to getto the place where they're
really working in a way that feels like it's with integrity
for them, I think, and the way they believe is best for the
(30:10):
clients. Definitely, yeah, that's a very
healthy reflection. And that is part of the struggle
is probably whether you've done a degree or diplomas for
certification, everything was based on you.
You're the fixer. You've got the white coat on,
you've got the power and there'sno surprise that suddenly people
(30:30):
are starting to tell you that it's not all about you, it's
about the client. And in your heart you're
thinking, well obviously it is. Why did I believe?
Why don't I pay that money wherethey've made it all about me?
It's not about me at all. But as with everything, it's a
behaviour change, which is easier for some people than
others, which is why I think sometimes mentorship and and
collaborating again is so important because you need
(30:52):
someone to help just support youand listen to you and allow you
to talk and unpeel the layers. And eventually you'll get rid of
that kind of cloud of doom or that why off your shoulders.
Not because someone's fixed it for you, but because they've
just listened and everything we should be doing with the client.
That's what therapists need to be doing with each other.
And I think that's the power of collaboration.
You know, that's where you can find your, your peace, inner
(31:13):
peace, just by having someone there supporting and listening.
Yes, So you're starting to do it, Matt, but talk more if you
word about then how this directly relates to clinician
well-being, if people might be listening to this and thinking,
well, gosh, that sounds hard andI don't know how to do that
approach. And it sounds like it takes
longer and there's a new skill set and this doesn't sound like
it's going to aid my well-being.In fact, it's worrying me a bit.
(31:37):
How? How does all of this actually
support? Even if it's in the longer term,
how in your experience does IT support clinicians feeling
better actually and feeling morewell, not overwhelmed and burnt
out? I think, I think one of the best
ways to get rid of that sensation that this sounds like
(31:58):
more work for me is put yourself, whether it's through a
course or whether it's through aprofessional association or
something, put yourself in the company of other people who are
either going through it or have been through it.
It's the same old kind of cliche, isn't it?
Where if you put 20 people in a room with a problem, you know,
everyone decides I'm just going to go out of my problem or, or
everyone's got the same problem.It's if you, if you have
(32:19):
everybody together, then you'll realise a lot of the fear you've
generated is, is because you feel you're alone and you don't
know what to do. So I think working with others
and listening to others can be really good.
And that should really be the emphasis in any course you go
on. And, and a lot of forward
thinking courses these days are about it.
If the person who's running it will take great pleasure in, in
(32:41):
taking a step back. And I do it on my course and,
and just letting however many delegates there are there
talking amongst each other, because that's where the real
learning and reflection and everything, all the beautiful
stuff that comes out and the information happens.
So I'd encourage people to do that.
And also, I mean, it's, it's ironically in healthcare, we
(33:01):
probably spend more money on CPDand than any other kind of
profession. We're continuously being told we
need to do it. And, and we've got imposter
syndrome because guess what, I love this stuff we're doing
doesn't help our clients. So we get nervous because of
that. So we have to pay more money in
this is vicious circle. But I really think we've reached
now in 2025, I'm so happy that Ican honestly say that there's
(33:22):
lots of options out there of quality CPD where yes, you'll
pay some money, but you'll come out with not just a, a skill
with your hands or another way of assessing someone.
You'll come out with an outlook,a new mindset, which foundation
in the true sense of the word. It'll be like the roots which
will allow you as an individual.That's how all CPD should be
really devised anyway, really. So it's and, and they're not too
(33:46):
difficult to find these people. I mean, I mean, that's my job.
If you listen to the sports. This isn't an advert by the way,
Jack, this is if you listen to the Sports Therapy Association
podcast, all the people I've talked to, I've got my biases.
Sometimes I've thought about purposely having a guest who I
don't really agree with that much, but I think that wouldn't
be what I'm about. So all of my guests are
delivering courses and things and information, which is done
(34:09):
with that paramount important thing of allowing the therapists
and the delegates to take it on board and then flourish.
All you're doing is, is is empowering in the true sense,
the word, this incredible personwho wants to help others and
you're giving them a few little tweaks and tools just to already
change the power they've got to do that.
And that's what it should be. So agree I think.
(34:33):
I so agree with that Matt, and thanks for articulating it so
beautifully. I, I often think back to when I
was a young physio going on lotsof courses and you know, at
times being unkind to myself, I've said I was arrogant because
I refused always to take this the course wholesale and apply
(34:58):
it. And maybe there was a bit of
arrogance or exuberance of youth, but it was just, it
wasn't actually a decision. It's just that was my behaviour
trait to listen to people, probably not consciously, but
subconsciously think, OK, what are the principles here?
I'll learn those, I'll make sureI understand the principles and
(35:18):
then I will go out into the world and I'll basically do it
my way. And, you know, I, I don't know
why that was my natural approach, but it was.
And I totally agree with you that that's a much more
respectful to more to teach moreovertly expecting that from the
people who've paid you money andcome to listen to you.
(35:41):
I think it's a much more respectful way to teach, as you
say, to, to to respect and trustthat these people in front of
you are highly intelligent people with a great
understanding of their own worlds and their own clients.
And you're there, as you say, toteach a foundation and not a
foundation in terms of a whole world of not a a foundational
(36:04):
layer that they can then go and build on and probably have
insights that you yourself wouldnever have had.
And, you know, hopefully you'll learn from them one day when you
see how they're applying it as well.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that type of education
is a really sensible thing to look for and I think that in
some ways will will counter thatsense of imposter syndrome
(36:28):
because if you are just taking on a guru's specifics, how can
that possibly apply perfectly inyour own world?
And then you think it's you, don't you?
You think you've applied it wrong or misunderstood or
something? Yeah, I, I, I totally agree with
you. Could I ask you perhaps more
from your own personal experience when you have applied
(36:50):
these behaviour change coaching approaches with clients, What's
your own personal experience of how you feel yourself compared
to how you used to feel with a client?
You know, and again, thinking about this idea of well-being,
what's your personal experience been of applying these
approaches? I think I mean, as a clinician,
(37:16):
one of the reasons I, I, I feel confident in delivering courses
and stuff because I've been there as a clinician.
And I know that for a good chunkof time working in a
multidisciplinary clinic, I had the sensation that 50% of my
clients were not actually getting better thanks to me, you
know, I could felt it. And I think a lot of therapists,
well, not all therapists, but I think all therapists probably
(37:39):
have got 50% of their clients not getting better.
And now how much of that is due to the fact that you are
delivering kind of information that's not helping that much, or
how much is due to the fact thatthe the clients are just simply
doing their own thing and you just haven't established that
alliance on the note. But the fact is, I think as soon
as you recognise that and acceptit and start thinking, OK, how
(38:03):
can I make things better? Then what can I do?
What can I change? Just basically start thinking
inwards. Then it just takes the whole
weight off your shoulders because whilst you're trying to
maintain this Superman or super person kind of cloak on at the
door, come in and I will fix youon my couch.
And it's like inside your heart,there's a little voice always,
which is kind of going, you don't know what you're doing,
just fake it, fake it. You know, people say fake it to
(38:25):
your make it and then you realise you're never making it.
You're always having a fake it sort of thing.
So I, I think that's in our profession, especially in
healthcare, because you, I thinkmost people, I've said it
before, who enter healthcare aredoing it through altruistic
reasons. It's you really do, you're doing
it for the thank yous, for seeing the differences, for
making a difference. You're not really doing it for
(38:46):
the money because you're not going to make that much money.
It's not your driving force. You've arrived at this stage in
your life because you want to help people.
So I think that, you know, as we've discussed before, that
puts a whole load of onus on your shoulders and and stress.
So once you turn things around and take that Cape off and
realise that all you are is a sound board, you're a chance for
(39:11):
this person coming in to feel comfortable, relaxed, maybe the
first time in a decade that somebody actually hasn't been
through what they're they've gone through.
Because that's kind of obviouslythe difference, isn't it?
Empathy and sympathy and stuff. But they are listening and, and
this is where the skills come into, I think.
I mean, I did when people ask meabout CPD, I'm not all of it
(39:33):
because again, there's a guru status with it.
But motivational interviewing, Ithink for the right person at
the right time can open up all sorts of ideas.
And there's there's nice examples of skills which you
wouldn't have known unless someone told you about it with
things like affirming and reflecting and some of the kind
of almost like sneakier things of.
And the one I always remember was when you're listening to a
(39:55):
client and we talk about active listening, and they're
unrevealing everything and thinking, yeah, this is easy.
All I've got to do is sit here and now and again put my hand
over my mouth and not say anything.
But then when you do say something, I love the point.
It was with Doctor Gary Mendoza.And I hadn't heard this before,
but it was like when you are reflecting or showing.
Reflecting in particular, the idea is you just repeat what the
(40:17):
client said so that they can tell that you're listening.
But if you go up at the end. It turns into a question because
that's what questions do so if you go oh, so so you really
can't handle not going for PB atthe end of your park run.
Now that because it's a question, it's enough for the
person who was just about unpeeling themselves to stop
(40:37):
because the focus is now on I'vebeen asked the question and and
it's gone OK, and and and and those layers are going to start
going back on again. And if all you just simply do.
It's just the one in a lots of examples of how just having
someone share this with you, youcan change everything if you
just go down at the end. Oh, so you find it difficult.
And part of it's not to go for the PB the whole time.
(40:59):
That's enough for the person to tick the box saying, wow, this
person's actually listening to me, but still continue their
train of thought. You haven't invaded what they
were thinking of. And that's just the one example
of such a nice technique which you can get and it makes such a
difference because now suddenly your patients are staying in
their world, they're revealing everything you need.
(41:20):
And there's plenty more, which is why if people are stuck and
they like something else, and I've recommended it to some
people, I'm careful to say it's not right for everybody and
watch out because there are someterrible videos of am I out
there and stuff. But but it's enough to make you
realise there's some skills I haven't got yet that could
really make my life easier. And they're not, it's not rocket
science. So yeah, I think it's, yeah.
(41:42):
I don't know if that answers your question.
It's a bit of a tangent, but. I kind of remember what my
question has to do with. It, it was, yeah.
It was how to take the pressure off whether it works.
I think it does, and often quitequickly as long as you you
choose the right avenues of exploration and get rid of this
Cape. Yeah, absolutely.
And I've written down to phrasesthat I love that you just said,
and I'm going to steal them if that's all right.
(42:05):
I think not mind. They'd be that they are yours
because they were within your sentences.
I'm just not even sure that you knew you'd said them.
You said this. You are a chance for somebody to
feel better. And I think, gosh, if we all
said that to ourselves before wewere into the treatment room, I
am a chance here for this personto feel better.
I'd love the choice of the word chance because it it doesn't.
(42:27):
There's no guarantee. And that doesn't mean you absorb
yourself of all responsibility, but it does mean that you just
recognise that you are a chance.And you that might mean you're
the whole solution. It might mean you say one word,
which means something to them that day and and triggers
another Ave. with some other personal experience.
But yeah, you you are a chance. That's how I'm going into this
(42:49):
room that I am a chance for thisperson to feel better.
And then just at the end there, when you, you said you, you one
of your aims in your communications not to invade
their, I think you said to invade their thinking.
I mean, what a great, I think that's a great phrase which I
haven't heard anybody else say about not just active listening,
(43:10):
but also communicating when you're trying to draw things
out. You're not going in to invade.
You are going in to open up and help that person explore their
own territory, not to invade their territory.
Probably slightly provocative language to give them what's
going on in the world these days.
But yes, if we were all going into explore rather than invade in
(43:32):
many contexts, that would be a great thing.
I. Think it's a good word, Invade.
And hearing you say it because it is quite strong.
It's a motive. But in effect, that is what
you're doing. That person, It's it's it's it's
a very personal thing to fact. A person who might not have been
opening up at all with their loved ones, their families, they
could have just been crying by themselves.
(43:53):
But if you're doing it right, then they could.
It really is. If you suddenly come in with a
question, even though it's, wellintending, it invades their
thoughts, it destroys them, thenthey don't open up anymore.
And it's like it is an invasion.It's not, Yeah, not a willing
invasion. We're not talking Putin here,
but we're talking kind of. Yeah, no, it's great.
And in effect, I mean, this isn't my phrase.
(44:14):
I learnt it from a a coaching mentor I had.
But on my assessment forms when I'm coaching a client, one of my
prompts for my note taking is exploring the territory and you
know it. This coaching mentor taught me
this phrase. She said stay horizontal as long
as you can. At some point, you, you need to
(44:36):
go vertical because you'll find the, you know, the critical
issue. Oh, point for discussion.
And that's when you go down, Butyou, you don't rush to get
there. You stay horizontal and you
explore the territory for as long as possible.
And you now what you've just said equally do not invade that
territory. Literally go and explore with
(44:56):
them. I love it.
So some really lovely things come out in this conversation,
Matt, and you're such a busy person.
You're seeing lots of fabulous things, lovely things.
And I know you're, you've got that kind of mind that's always
looking to the next thing. So what, what is next for you?
(45:16):
Is there anything on the horizonthat you you are yet aware of?
Now I'm enjoying, I mean, thanksto like our friend in common
anime, Matt Sierra. She's really good at I, I
everyone's kind of says, oh, I've got must have been Potter
syndrome. Everyone kind of says it says
it's almost like a buzzword, which you can't say anymore.
But it's only because of her pushing me and saying no, Matt,
(45:40):
you know, courses are slow. People are doing everything
online now. So she's a wonderful person in
my life who goes, Matt, just persevere with it.
You've got a great message. You deliver it really nicely.
People need it. Just because they're not
flocking up to go on your courses doesn't mean you've got
to stop. And that's great because I, and
I think that's I like saying that out loud because whoever
you are, and I'm sure it's, I'm sure you would admit it as well.
(46:01):
We all need certain people in our life who do guide us and
give us a little bit of a push sometimes and it from different
angles. You all need different kind of
types of help. But but yeah, so I'm still
persevering with that. It's a hard slog.
As I'm sure you know, we live ina world now where everything is
catch up on demand videos. I'm still very much champion
learning through face to face contact.
(46:23):
I think it's massively important, the same as when I
talk about collaboration in thisepisode, I'm talking about face
to face collaboration. I'm talking about meeting up
with somebody, shaking their hand, getting that alliance with
your fellow therapist, not just talking on Twitter.
I mean, that can be a nice introduction or I know, or
definitely not Twitter, but not just talking on some other
better social media platform. But you need to meet up with
(46:44):
these people. And that's when, again, the
layers will come off and you'll get that.
But it's. Yeah.
So I'm still persevering with that.
And now I get such a kick. I had a wonderful, what I really
liked about my recent course in Manchester at Jack's Place,
actually in Chew's health was I had a degree, sports scientists,
we had a podiatrist, we had a couple of physios, we had a
(47:05):
massage therapist. And it was just, again, I'm
sitting back. I've opened up a little dialogue
for them and they just sat back and let them crack on with it.
And then that's just my bliss soI can have a little look and
that's when I learn about is this working now?
Are they getting on like I planned?
Is it going right? But it's just so it was such a
nice example of multidisciplinary.
It was so easy then to talk about multidisciplinary care and
(47:27):
patient focus because they'd allbeen doing it and they'd all
been embracing each other and itwas just traditionally different
hierarchies of levels of knowledge.
But they were all enthralled when the massage therapist was
talking about, you know, how touch can help this and that.
And they're all just, it was wonderful.
So I do that more than anything out of my for my own personal
satisfaction and development. But we're looking at, again,
(47:52):
through the Sports Therapy Association podcast, we're
looking at more regional events to try and reach more people.
Accessibility is a big thing on our list this year.
So we're going to try and do them around the country.
Still the same as you after Therapy Expo, I was still, I was
a little bit this year. This is the best way.
But the fact is there's still 45000 people who walk through
(48:15):
the door. So I'm still involved with that.
And actually I sit on a panel of, of advisory people who
there's a good vibe there. The message is still
multidisciplinary. I had attended a meeting the
other day and it was, it was good information coming out.
There was a unification of, of different disciplines and a
common knowledge. So I still very much want to be
(48:35):
part of that and to help that and develop into something as as
good as it can be so. And you told me about something
which I thought sounded great just before we came on air about
where you're going to take your podcast.
I love that idea. Do you want to share that?
I. Forgot about that.
You've got such a good memory, such a good for now.
Yeah, I know I've felt people who aren't aware that the Sports
(48:55):
Therapy Association podcast cameout of COVID basically like so
many other kind of improved communication, kind of fountains
of knowledge and that and and we've so now we're like 235
weeks in and I've managed to have such incredible guests like
including yourself and Joanne and, and every week is just a
bliss for me. I I look forward to it.
I wake up and when I go, yes, today's Tuesday.
I can't wait. And and I, I just as enthralled
(49:18):
when I finished with it, But I'mjust conscious that it's every
week and I'm not practicing whatI preach.
I'm putting out this informationthat I tell people you have to
reflect and think about it. And every week is too much.
So what we've taken decision nowis I'm going to stop having
guests for a while and just I'm inviting clinicians from any
(49:39):
discipline just to come in to the show.
As long as they've got a decent Wi-Fi connection, that's all.
Just come and have a little chatwith me and talk about a
particular episode which resonated with them, which
affected their practice. And I think there's so much good
that could come out of that because it'll be great for the
clinician who basically has the confidence to come onto the show
(50:00):
and talk about it. It will be absolutely adored by
listeners because people love hearing real life clinicians
coming in, talking about their experiences.
And also it'll give us a chance to actually highlight and
reflect on some of the amazing 200 odd episodes which we've had
and bring them up to the front as well, some of which have
evolved. I'll be inviting some guests
back to kind of show how what they said 3 or 4 five years ago
(50:21):
might have changed, but it's allabout reflection, isn't it?
An evolution of thought. So that's what I'm going to try
and do for the next year, hopefully on the podcast.
Still do it every week, but it'll be chance for a shorter 30
minute chat about yeah, topics that change practice in the real
world. I love that.
And and that builds entirely on what you were saying about your
(50:42):
principles for teaching. You've put some information out
there and now you're interested to see how people interpret it
for themselves. And, you know, like we said when
we were talking about it just before we came on air, there'll
probably be insights that come back that even the the original
guest talking about it had hadn't sort of, you know,
(51:02):
connections hadn't made themselves.
I think you'll probably get muchmore value out of your content
by by getting other people's views back on it.
I think it's a brilliant idea. Then it must be a good idea.
And yes, another thing I'm goingto do, I'm going to get you to
come and do your course at my multidisciplinary clinic, mainly
(51:27):
just because if Jack's had you up there, then I'm going.
But yeah, it would be fabulous. We're a similarly
multidisciplinary team. Yeah, let's book that in.
That would be great. That would be amazing.
I would love that deal. That would be great.
Where are you on the South Coast?
I am in Lancing, which is basically where people go when
(51:47):
they realise they can't afford Hove anymore.
They they realise they can, theyhave to move across it went
through Shoreham and then along a bit.
It always travels W for some reason.
But yeah, it's kind of between Shoreham and Worthing.
Lancerotti, we like to call it. Lancerotti Well, that that's OK,
because that must surely mean that they, you know, the vibe is
(52:07):
coming your way. If everybody is moving out of
Hove into or, you know, moving on from Hove, you've got to be
the next best thing. Oh no, it's lovely.
No, I'm very lucky. It's it's by the sea, which I
love and yeah, that's fantastic.We won the Downs as well, so
it's great for runners. You've got the choice of a
beautiful sea front or going up onto the hill, so it's, yeah,
it's an ideal location. Sounds gorgeous.
(52:29):
Well, thank you so much, Matt. Fabulous discussion, really
enjoyed it. And yes, I'll look forward to us
meeting in person when you come and run your course at
Courtyard. Amazing.
Thank you so much. It's always, it's just a
pleasure listening to your voicebasically, but even better when
the questions are so good. So thank you.
Have a lovely rest of your day and have a lovely weekend.
(52:49):
Take care. Same to you.
Thanks. Cheers, Matt.
Well, a lovely conversation thathour just flew by.
I really enjoyed talking to Mattand I love his insights into
lots of things, but specificallyhis attitude to how to conduct
education, how to be respectful when you're teaching people.
(53:11):
And I really loved his slant on working with runners and the
impact that mental health and emotional social aspects are
inevitably and of course going to have on runners performance.
If you on hearing that would love Matt to come to your clinic
(53:32):
or to your hospital organizationand deliver that course, then
please do get in touch. I can't believe having heard the
way that he delivers the the style he delivers it, that you
wouldn't want to be a part of that.
So do go and check Matt's website out.
I should have asked him at the end for contact details, but
(53:52):
I'll make sure those are in the notes.
Get in touch and and get him to come and share his wisdom or
share his foundation with you. Also an ashamed personal plug if
you were intrigued by the types of coaching conversations we
were talking about. If you don't know ready by now,
(54:13):
Joanne Alfenstein and I are running a course later this year
in June called Coaching Unpeeled.
And it's designed specifically to introduce coaching principles
that can be derived, can be applied directly in your
clinical world. And it's there's there's some
(54:34):
theory in the course, but it's also very practical.
There's going to be lots of opportunities to help you bring
up patient scenarios and in fact, go away and practice with
your own patients and clients because it's all very well
talking about these types of conversations.
It's only when you experience conducting them and then hearing
what comes back when you use these these interesting and
(54:55):
powerful communication techniques that the method
really starts to bed in. So I will also include some
information on that course and how you can get involved in that
if you're interested. So remember the reason why all
these things are important, the reason why we spend so much time
on this podcast talking about your own well-being and how
(55:19):
making changes in the clinical world are not only better for
patients, but we're interested in the ones that are better for
you. The reason we do that is because
you matter. You are absolutely front and
centre a part of delivering the services.
If you are not well, then the service is not well and is not
(55:41):
progressing in the way that we talked about on this podcast.
So please do remember, the reason why all of that is
important is because you matter.
Hello, and welcome to You Matter.
Hello and welcome to this latestepisode of You Matter with
sports therapist Matt Phillips. Matt is ostensibly going to be
talking about managing work withrunners, but because it's the
(00:25):
You Matter podcast, the conversation really is around
working with runners and adopting an approach that
supports your well-being and definitely the well-being of
your client as well. It actually is a discussion that
could be applied to working withany kind of client or patient
(00:46):
and could probably be applied togeneral life and management of
your own self-care and attitudesto change and things like that.
So I really hope you enjoy the episode, sit back, enjoy it, and
I'll be back at the end. So hello and welcome to this
latest episode of You Matter, where I am absolutely delighted
(01:09):
to return a favour actually because my guest Matt Phillips
had me and Joanne Elfenstein as a guest on his podcast recently.
And we just had such a great time with Matt.
He is an absolutely brilliant host.
We enjoyed the experience and really appreciated his style of
hosting, making us feel really welcome, asking great questions.
(01:30):
So Matt, hello, it is a great pleasure to reciprocate and have
you on You Matter. Thanks very much.
Now it was. It was.
It was doubly as much fun for meas it was for you and and
Joanne. So yeah, that's, that's great.
It's, it's no, it's an honour and a pleasure to be a part of
this. Obviously, you know, I'm a
massive fan and lovely work. So it's great.
I really appreciate the invite. Thanks, Matt.
(01:51):
So for those of you that don't know, Matt Phillips is a sports
therapist by trade, creator of Run Chat Live.
That's his business. And also, as we've just
intimated, host of the Soft Tissue Association podcast,
which amazingly goes out every week.
And Matt just told me he's passed 230 episodes.
(02:14):
So if you haven't checked out that podcast yet, do you go
there's a huge. Amount of sports therapy
association. Oh, I just think, what did I
say? What did I said?
Soft tissue. Didn't we?
Oh, it's very confusing these days.
That's part of the problem of our industry.
But yeah, we are. Wrote that on my bit of paper as
well. That's fine.
It's it's a problem. Sports Therapy Association with
a podcast, not website Yes. OK, so today's conversation is
(02:39):
generally about runners. It's about assessing runners.
It's for anybody that works withrunners.
We're going to be talking about injury and prevention with
runners. So you know, all of you
listening I'm sure will come across runners in some way,
shape or form and I'm sure an awful lot of you are runners
(02:59):
yourself. But as ever on this podcast, my
take on it is always what does this mean about clinician
well-being? What's in it, you know, under
that topic? And we will get to that very
soon. But Matt, before we do that,
could you just outline a little bit for me in a bit more detail
what you do and and how you got to this stage?
(03:23):
Yep, sure. So how far do we go back on
Tottenham Court Road in the 1990s doing a YMCA fitness
instructor certificate? That just makes me think of
great record shops. It was.
A great area to study, but yeah,and it goes back to there,
somebody who didn't do very wellin their A levels, mainly
because I was introduced to girls or young women when I was
(03:45):
16, suddenly in sixth form. And yeah, 2 didn't combine very
well. You know, you can imagine I was
learning too much communication in those two years rather than
actually studying. But yeah, so I ended up, but it
was fine because I wouldn't knowwhat to have done anyway, but
ended up getting into gyms because I was very much into
that and martial arts. And that basically led to me
(04:06):
eventually doing National Academy of Sports Medicine.
We've fast forwarded to around 2003 now certified personal
training work with David Lloyd for about 5 or 6 years.
And that was that was it was great time because 2003 was the
time when kind of guru took off.I think it was probably combined
(04:26):
with the Internet. That's when you had your pool
checks, even ASM, you had your Gary Gray's Gray Institute.
And suddenly, probably no discredit to them, but because
of the Internet, suddenly we started getting people becoming
too famous and too followed and always cult status.
And I actually, yeah, I, I was guilty of jumping on the train
because I was still then at an age where I just worshipped
(04:49):
these people coming over from California to teach us with
their incredible posture and super buff natural and physics.
And, and, but then I realised maybe a couple of years later,
thanks to rubbing shoulders witha lot of people like yourself
and the rest of the Twitter crewaround that era to 1415.
That's a lot of the stuff which was coming out there with core
(05:11):
stability and the whole kind of Paul Hodges work with transverse
abdominis and activating and allof that, getting people to
squand footballs. And all of this stuff which I
was preaching and making good money out of was actually a bit
questionable. And we kind of, it was the same
time as the fascia research. I'd also got involved in soft
tissue therapy because I wanted to kind of get involved with
that as well, as well as the rehab side of things.
(05:33):
So, and that was the same repeatstory.
I, I worked my way up and the massage stuff was very nice,
very holistic. Again, a few of these
traditional ideas which we have to kind of move on a bit from
like breaking up scar tissue, etcetera.
But then I did the level 5 out of interest just to get myself
up there. And that was full of an awful
(05:54):
lot of, of misconceptions and kind of structuralist based
ideas, which again, I realised, well, what is, what's going on
here? There's a theme here.
I've been taught stuff and realising I'm having to question
my own identity. And it's, I'm OK now because I'm
old and, and withered and I can accept it.
But at that age, I remember twice paying money and learning
something, which then made me question myself and what was I
(06:15):
doing and felt very disempowering.
And also with runners. I mean, when I, I was runner
myself and decided to settle down working with runners and
the same thing happened again. I got involved in gait analysis.
We were one of the first gait analysis clinics on the South
Coast using kind of 3D gait analysis.
And once again there's me prettymuch selling the whole
overpronation idea and getting involved in Shoe Prescription.
(06:36):
And then Ian Griffiths turns up and questions me about
overpronation. And thanks to him and other
great podiatrists and Craig Payne and people like that and
Simon Bartle that educated me. But again, I was like, what is
it about people telling me stuffthat isn't true?
And that kind of cutting a long story a little bit shorter kind
of put me in the position where I really wanted to help
(06:59):
clinicians deal with that. Because I through through
getting into the trade and like I say, in the 90s and having to
go through these experiences, realized how distressing it can
be and how it makes you want to Chuck everything away.
And the whole imposter syndrome,I think it's still prevalent in
society today, unfortunately. Education might be getting a bit
(07:19):
better thanks to the kind of people we know in common.
Like I remember that's the area Mike Grice with regards to soft
tissue 3. But there's still awful an awful
lot of information being put outthere, either unintentionally or
these days with the Internet andthe ease is to build a business
intentionally bad information that just sells with click bait.
So that's my role now. I I I also teach.
(07:42):
I hold the gate courses and everything, but everything
really, I'm just, I try and be apleasant conduit of education
and information to help people realise they haven't got to
throw everything out. They're still amazing
individuals. We're not tweaking that much,
but what we are tweaking could make a huge difference to not
just your clients but also to you and your well-being.
(08:02):
Yeah, I think you dread that line brilliantly, Matt.
So it's when you say I help clinicians with that.
What I'm hearing is this sort oftwo strands to what you do.
There is there teaching people to work with runners and then
there's helping them with the, the identity stuff that might
come up that you've just described that, you know, some
(08:24):
of, I imagine what you're teaching now might challenge
some people's view based on whatthey've been learning before.
So is that a correct assumption that this kind of, you know,
teaching the work and then there's supporting the clinician
as they learn these new approaches?
Definitely, I think so. And we are in an era where
particularly after COVID, which kind of made everyone a little
(08:44):
bit, or most people a little bitmore fragile, it also kind of
augmented the amount of communication between
therapists, which is a wonderfulthing.
I think people are more receptive now to listen to each
other, which is great. But again, it's how the quality
information that's getting put out there is really important as
well. So I, what I try and do is, I
mean, through the podcast, I've,I've got my dream job of talking
(09:05):
to people like yourselves and other experts.
And I absorb it all and analyse it.
And then I just try and put thattogether with my own experience
to help other people who all need slightly different things,
which is, you know, important aswell.
There's no one perfect CPD or, or presentation for everybody.
It's just reacting to the personin front of you, which is what
we should be doing with our withour patients and clients as
(09:26):
well. That's the big thing.
I think of one thing that is my personal bug is we preach about
how we're supposed to be lookingafter clients and patient
centred and all that and and treating them with wonderful
language and and empathy. But on social media in
particular, when it comes to therapists helping other
therapists, most of it these days, tragically is mocking
(09:47):
somebody else or calling somebody else out saying how
rubbish poo poohing it. I hate the word like BS in the
post because it's everything we did 10 years ago could be
classified as BS. It's not.
It's just something we've evolved from.
So I'm very I'm probably overprotective of that.
I think therapists need to be kinder to therapists if if,
especially if their goal is education and helping our
(10:08):
industry move forwards. We should treat each other as
we're supposed to be treating our clients.
Why do you think that is? You know, why would we do that
to each other when we're in the business of, as you say,
actively not doing it to the patients and the clients that we
work with? You know what?
I shouldn't be a hypocrite because I vote about this in in
(10:30):
the wonderful MSK mag at the beginning of the year and I
wrote a piece saying gait analysis is a waste of time.
And it was it, it was an ironic kind of title.
I didn't mean that at all. Gate analysis, this is very
useful. It's just not for the reasons we
thought. But my point of writing was in
2013, fourteen, I, I was guilty myself in the first early
therapy Expos of feeling like I had so much to say in so little
(10:54):
time. And it was very much a pedestal.
And I would use graphics and, and probably all of my
communication skills in a slightly sinister evil way of
kind of mocking what was missing.
I don't even like using the wordmyth anymore because to me that
is is it's a nasty way of of judging something, making it
sound like it's a fairy tale andit's something that never
(11:14):
existed. It's not.
It's just things we've evolved from.
So, and I looked back at that, Ithought I wouldn't change it
because that was just me at the time.
But now the last two or three times at therapy experiment
definitely my course much more now is about not mocking
anything. You know the same way as with
clients. We should never say, oh, the
last person you went to was obviously an idiot.
They don't know what they're talking about because the
(11:36):
client's going to go I don't like you inside internally and
we shouldn't do it to each otheras therapists.
So I think some people still maybe stuck that it's for good
intention. They think that by exhibiting
the poor information out there and maybe in a slightly mocking
way, that maybe that informalityhelps create a bond and alliance
(11:56):
with your fellow therapists. Maybe it's, I'm sure there's
good intention. I know there is.
I know people who know that I, Iwince when I see their posts and
emoticons and things and smiley faces and I hate all the
comments that come with it of all the people laughing and kind
of it's packed mentality which drives me mad.
So I think it's it's a good intention, but for me I don't, I
think it's probably holding healthcare back on a level
(12:18):
higher than a lot of people realise.
That's that's an angle I wanted to pick up actually, that
holding healthcare back because you're right, there has been
this fairly toxic element to therapist to therapist
communication. But I suppose I also have a bit
of sympathy for what I sense is a frustration of people holding
(12:44):
on too long, even in the face ofnew evidence.
And that might be directed as anger at the person expressing
that thing. But I, I guess the bit I do have
some sympathy with is impatiencein a lot of us.
You know, I'm, I'm nearly 30 years into this career now, and
I wanted things to change when Iwas 21.
(13:07):
And some of them have, but a lotof them haven't.
And, you know, do you agree thatsometimes the the frustration is
actually, you know, come on, guys.
You know, there are better places to go than this.
We don't need to hold onto that stuff out of fear.
I do and and I don't get as frustrated these days because I
(13:30):
see it in the same way as a therapist getting frustrated
that their client or patient hasn't done the the exercises.
We know that non compliance is abig issue.
I used to as a younger therapistgo how are they?
How are they going to get betterif they don't do what I tell
them? And you and you lay the blame on
the patient when reality it's because you've given them too
(13:52):
much. You haven't explained the
importance of it in that you haven't said it the right time.
It's always to do with behaviourchange in that and the classic
elements of of of coaching. So I kind of see it the same
way. Yes, it's frustrating if you see
the industry isn't changing, butI'd also at my age now reflect
and think, am I is what I'm doing actually helping these
(14:13):
people change? Or maybe my exclamation Marks
and my shouts and my swaying or whatever it is.
Maybe that isn't helping as manypeople as I thought, you know,
because I don't. If we look at education, which I
love the parallels between education and and therapy,
because it's it is, there's so many parallels in terms of
(14:33):
eliciting responses and not kindof directing, but kind of
working together. I can't think of one instance
where shouting at somebody or belittling someone else actually
helps in education. The people in your class or your
lecture or whatever, some of them might cheer you and be fan
people, but most of them are notgoing to learn, you know,
they're not going to take anything away.
They're not going to reflect andit's not helping them become
(14:54):
more critical or thoughtful. So I think it's up to us to
realise if, if, yeah, your original question.
So if, if, if the industry is not changing or certain people
aren't changing, then I'd take that more as a, oh, how can I
reframe what I'm saying to actually help them?
You know, maybe it should be done face to face instead of
through social media. Hey, who?
Who would have thought, You know.
So yeah, I get the frustration. A really good point, yeah.
(15:18):
Are we actually part of the problem?
Are we creating the conditions and the environment that allow
people to move into that quite uncomfortable space of realising
some of the things you held dearare perhaps needing a bit of a
reframe and it will move on? Yeah, that's a very, very good
point. So let's take this back to
(15:40):
working with runners. What would be more helpful to
talk about, Matt? We could either talk initially
about specifically the things you do teach that are perhaps
different to what you might havelearned or taught in the past,
or you might feel it's more helpful just to go straight into
(16:02):
talking about why that's actually relevant for clinician
well-being and helping them create this identity shift.
Do we? I guess my question is, do we
need to do the background of what you're actually teaching
and talk about talking about in respect to treating runners?
I don't. Think, I think I could summarise
it quite easily and the fact it's runners it could apply to.
(16:25):
Basically it's, it's a evolutionmoving on from the whole
structures approach, blaming issue and the tissue sort of
thing, which is well documented and people have been talking
about it for a long time. It's just with running industry,
it's, it's just even more intensified because, well,
because of a few factors. I mean, running has the highest
prevalence of injury out of any sport depending on the date.
(16:48):
Yeah, it's huge. And it's, when you look at the
actual data, it differs quite a lot because of what population
you're looking at or, or what you regard as a running injury,
should a blister be part of the sample or whatever.
So if you take a midline, it boils down to more or less, if I
remember rightly, something like3 running related injuries every
(17:09):
20 weeks of running, which is pretty poor.
It's like that's means you're going to have to pay somebody or
look for help or something or not be able to do what you love
doing three times every kind of 20 weeks.
Which I think if if you did thaton any other sport, you'd give
up or go home or just not pay for any more.
But the thing with running is you don't have to pay for
anything and you can go out any day you like.
(17:30):
All you need is a pair of shoes which you don't have to
necessarily spend a fortune on. So there is a danger of being
able to do it too much too soon,too often and that whole sort of
thing. But because there's such a high
pool of injury, I think that opens the doors to all sorts of
manner of ways of helping these people.
And there is there's a new way of stopping certain running
(17:54):
related injuries. Every time you turn on the
Internet or something, there's some new way of doing it.
Because the fact is the thing that interests me is not so much
the prevalence, it's the fact that hasn't really come down
much since the 1980s, which is another interesting fact.
Which means that despite all thestuff we're doing and have been
doing with the technology, there's something we're still
missing. And for me, it seems the more I
(18:14):
look into it seems more glaringly obvious.
But the data's starting to realise now that when, although
like 10 years ago or 20 years ago, it's all about dismissing
the, the, the asymmetry, just dismissing the bio mechanics.
Or rather we haven't got proof that just because you've got
femoral reduction, internal rotation, then some people will
get telephone pain, some people won't and some people with the
(18:37):
perfect running form still get injured.
So, but we didn't have much to replace it.
But what I love about research being done now is they are
looking at the mental health of the person.
They're doing kind of questionnaires to see about that
person's mental well-being, how they feel.
And there's some really interesting data coming up
showing links between someone's actual kind of psychological
(18:57):
profile compared to how likely they are to get injured.
And I think that's, I think that's probably why we've got so
much difference in, in the biomechanical side of things,
because you can have 560 runnersand, and, and put them through
what you feel is the same kind of control, but they've all got
all sorts of different memories and things going in their lives,
(19:18):
all sorts of different ecosystems.
So it's not surprising. I think, I think that's the fact
we're missing out on that. Some of them get injured and
some of them don't, regardless of how they're moving.
So when it comes to helping runners and, and working out why
someone's getting injured or whythey've got a higher, they seem
to be, have a higher risk of getting injured by doing a
certain thing in a certain shoe at a certain time.
(19:39):
I think it really does boil downto seeing what makes that
individual person in front of you tick.
I think that's what's missed outso much through education and
this kind of structural approach.
We're still making a hypothesis from the objective assessment.
We're still looking at how they move rather than as you and
(20:01):
Joanne sort of demonstrate and and exemplify through coaching,
is sitting back and letting the runner tell us or not even the
runner, the person tell us what's going on.
Where that kind of psychosocial load is coming from?
And I love that that's your answer.
Why? Why didn't I expect that answer?
Gosh, that's yeah, I'm almost, you know, surprised at myself
(20:23):
that I didn't expect that. But I love that that's the
first, you know, extra factor that you are bringing in there,
of course. So taking that sort of mental
state, mental well-being elementinto consideration, well, would
it be OK if we assume that that is indicative of one of the
(20:47):
major differences in the way that you might teach?
That's why I call my course a modern approach to gait analysis
is because it is. I'm very much focusing.
I'm not forgetting the bio mechanics.
You need to learn the gait cycle.
You need to learn causes and things about engine management.
But you really, it's not just accepting that there's a person
(21:10):
and, and treating the runner as opposed to the running injury.
It's now opening the doors to what's not simple at all.
But now you suddenly get into behaviour change.
You're getting into like coaching, you're getting into
how to help this per how to 1st discover how that individual is
going to reveal what they need, because that could take a lot of
work. And then you got to work out
when the right time to start, you know, making these changes,
(21:32):
the suggested behaviour changes and keeping them happening
because and then, and then you've got on top of that,
that's an area where a lot of therapists are just not skilled
with and there's a danger here. It's all very well me saying, Oh
yeah, you've got to treat the individual or not.
The only injury. How the hell do I do that?
And that can lead to even more imposter syndrome and people
worrying about can I still charge this person fifty 6070
(21:53):
lbs if we're just having a chat.And that's kind of brings in
the, I try it a lot of my course.
I keep saying it in the last course, I must have said it 100
times. It's just about my biggest goal
is building your confidence. Some of you might have walked in
here thinking you're the most confident person in the world,
but I'm putting thoughts your ways, which are going to strip
away that confidence you had because I'm taking the power out
(22:14):
of your hands now. And I'm, I'm creating this power
you're going to need in your ears and maybe a little bit more
in the mouth. So it's, it's a new world.
And and yeah. So that's what my modern
approach is. Yeah.
And. Yeah, I'd be no surprise that
that's all music to my ears. And, you know, the phrases that
spring to mind are that you're, you're accepting that you're
(22:37):
working with uncertainty and, and then rather than telling
yourself that now you've got impostor syndrome, it's just,
no, I'm, I'm just dealing with uncertainty and I'm staying with
it. And that's going to naturally
give me feelings. It doesn't mean there's anything
wrong. Yes.
And your, your bit about can I still charge the person the same
price for this? I don't know about you, but
(22:59):
quite often for me that questioncomes on the back of a
realisation that you'll probablybe doing less within a session,
or in theory achieving less or taking longer to get to the
point of knowing what to put into a rehab program or when to
start it even. Is that.
Is that all in a line with what you're saying?
(23:21):
Definitely and it's and it's, and it's a little bit dangerous
as well because not only are youhaving to manage that, but your
client or patients got expectations as well.
They've been bought up for the whole of their lives thanks to
the kind of our medical way of doing things of that you are
going to do something to them. They're going to have some
physio, they're going to take a pill, get an injection.
So you've got to be careful thatyou're not giving this all
(23:42):
wonderful new stuff. The client and, and they came
along just wanting a massage or they wanted you to fix them in
two sessions. So it's it's, it's a tricky
area. It's not undoable, it's just
you've got to be. You yourself have got to change
your frame of mind in order to make these behaviour changes
before you can help your clientsmaybe.
And do you get the situation? We definitely get it in Vizio.
(24:04):
I want to have it reflected backto me.
Or well, I started introducing this process and the client's
face was just, you know, what the hell is going on here?
And some clients actually sayingthis isn't what I came for.
You know, I'm used to this and Iwant this.
How do you help people deal withthat?
I guess it's a confrontation of sorts.
(24:27):
Yeah, we talk about that in the course.
I think a lot of it is in the preparation.
A lot of it is tweaking what's on your website.
It's about maybe doing more pre calls before they come in.
You've you've got to make that what's going to happen.
Well, no, that's totally not true at all.
You're not going to say what's going to happen at all.
You've got to kind of get acrossto them that it is a flexible
(24:49):
fluid state where depending on what information they give you,
your treatment may change. You're going to be working with
them. And then there's it's it's not
an easy sale. It's far easier website with
bullet points of we fix this, you've got sciatica.
We'll do this much easier and itcan look much nicer.
It's much less fluffy, but that's something which This is
why I think collaboration reallycomes into it.
(25:11):
And again, thanks to guests, I did an episode with Andy Hosgood
and Andy Thomas and it was all about collaboration.
And I think a great way, the best way for clinicians to put
these strategies into place is just to talk to each other.
You know, because the worst you can do is try and redesign your
whole website, try and reinvent the wheel where if you talk to
(25:32):
the other five therapists in your area with, without fear
saying what you're thinking you're doing, three of them will
probably go, oh, I'm so glad yousaid that.
I've got the same thing going on.
I listened to that podcast as well with the Sports Therapy
Association podcast. How do we do this?
And that's just that's that thatcould save so much problem and
anguish and beating yourself up and getting things wrong.
And that's what we should all bedoing.
(25:53):
I mean, it sounds again, easier than than than in reality,
because there's a lot of fear and worry about sharing these
details with the competition. It is something which I think
can really help. And once you open that door and
start collaborating, I think as Andy's, the Andy's were saying,
that fear you had initially started disappearing pretty
quickly because you realise, whydid I do this before?
(26:15):
This is ridiculous. It's it really helps.
I think that does speak to a wayto facilitate significant change
within professions as well. Because I was about to ask you a
question which you've just answered in a wait, no, it's
great. I was going to ask.
(26:36):
So when you're with a client in that confrontation or no, not in
the confrontation, when you talked about copy on your
website or maybe how you might talk to a client when they're
first with you, I wondered whether you might overtly say,
excuse me, I work in this way. And it might be very different
to other therapists that you've seen, which, you know, on the
face of it is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
(26:57):
But on the other side, you couldsay, well, that's you slightly
passively dissing what other people do.
As opposed to the way I took your answer when you're talking
about collaboration is if we're talking to each other and
saying, oh, you know what? How have you expressed this on
your website and how do you talkto patients?
So that actually we're just saying this is how we're going
(27:18):
to work together. Not it's different to anything
else or it's different how I used to work.
It's, it's the more of us that are saying this is how I work.
That then becomes more of the normal of what people are
reading and hearing. Maybe, you know, that's one of
the one of the ways, not the way, one of the ways we start to
make significant shifts together.
(27:41):
I think that's important. I mean, not I was born, I don't
know why or where it came from, but I was kind of born a bit of
a lingua file. I was doing debating at school
when I was 10. I loved it.
I was a total geek. It was almost like band camping.
I was there were trophies involved?
From there to Tottenham Court Road and being for girls.
What a shame, but. I love, I naturally, I, I, I
sometimes, oh, I will sometimes spend far too long analysing and
(28:03):
arguing over the use of words and how important it is to
either evidence based instead ofevidence informed where other
people just go. It's not important.
And, and I, I think it's healthyfor people to question the words
they're using on the website andthe impact that can have on, on
the readers. So if it doesn't come naturally
for you, somebody who is experienced in that, they can
solve your problem like that just by saying, put this word
(28:25):
in, like you just said. I mean, as soon as you said I
don't work the same as other therapists, I think it's a
massive danger with runners because runners are so used to
being let down because a lot of the stuff they're given doesn't
work to the extent that they don't trust therapists.
They don't. I mean, we've got a whole world
now that doesn't even trust science.
So I mean, it's it's pretty tricky out there at the moment.
(28:47):
So if you start saying I do thisslightly differently, they're
going to think, here we go, another advertising gimmick
here, you know, So yeah, you can't start comparing yourself
to other people. You've just got to say what we
do here is and we'll be working with you and yeah, just not even
suggest that you have evolved orchanged or modified yourself.
(29:08):
You don't need an evidence informed stamp on your website
or you know, it's, it's yeah, I mean, it's your territory.
It's all about speaking and the coaching and the listening and
and the and the clients and the patients won't care.
A lot of this worry comes out ofyou.
I think they just want to, they just want to see an end to their
pain or run faster or so it's yeah.
(29:28):
No, you're right. I mean, you know how much I love
Joanna Elfinstein's work. And you know something she
repeatedly says to people, it's not about you, It's it's about
the client in front of you and what works for them.
And of course, with this approach, there will be some
people for whom that approach isnever going to work.
And it's hard when you're starting out in a new business.
(29:49):
And I work with a lot of people setting up new businesses with
this approach. And they're from where they're
going to put some people off, which they will, but they've got
to, if they're ever going to getto the place where they're
really working in a way that feels like it's with integrity
for them, I think, and the way they believe is best for the
(30:10):
clients. Definitely, yeah, that's a very
healthy reflection. And that is part of the struggle
is probably whether you've done a degree or diplomas for
certification, everything was based on you.
You're the fixer. You've got the white coat on,
you've got the power and there'sno surprise that suddenly people
(30:30):
are starting to tell you that it's not all about you, it's
about the client. And in your heart you're
thinking, well obviously it is. Why did I believe?
Why don't I pay that money wherethey've made it all about me?
It's not about me at all. But as with everything, it's a
behaviour change, which is easier for some people than
others, which is why I think sometimes mentorship and and
collaborating again is so important because you need
(30:52):
someone to help just support youand listen to you and allow you
to talk and unpeel the layers. And eventually you'll get rid of
that kind of cloud of doom or that why off your shoulders.
Not because someone's fixed it for you, but because they've
just listened and everything we should be doing with the client.
That's what therapists need to be doing with each other.
And I think that's the power of collaboration.
You know, that's where you can find your, your peace, inner
(31:13):
peace, just by having someone there supporting and listening.
Yes, So you're starting to do it, Matt, but talk more if you
word about then how this directly relates to clinician
well-being, if people might be listening to this and thinking,
well, gosh, that sounds hard andI don't know how to do that
approach. And it sounds like it takes
longer and there's a new skill set and this doesn't sound like
it's going to aid my well-being.In fact, it's worrying me a bit.
(31:37):
How? How does all of this actually
support? Even if it's in the longer term,
how in your experience does IT support clinicians feeling
better actually and feeling morewell, not overwhelmed and burnt
out? I think, I think one of the best
ways to get rid of that sensation that this sounds like
(31:58):
more work for me is put yourself, whether it's through a
course or whether it's through aprofessional association or
something, put yourself in the company of other people who are
either going through it or have been through it.
It's the same old kind of cliche, isn't it?
Where if you put 20 people in a room with a problem, you know,
everyone decides I'm just going to go out of my problem or, or
everyone's got the same problem.It's if you, if you have
(32:19):
everybody together, then you'll realise a lot of the fear you've
generated is, is because you feel you're alone and you don't
know what to do. So I think working with others
and listening to others can be really good.
And that should really be the emphasis in any course you go
on. And, and a lot of forward
thinking courses these days are about it.
If the person who's running it will take great pleasure in, in
(32:41):
taking a step back. And I do it on my course and,
and just letting however many delegates there are there
talking amongst each other, because that's where the real
learning and reflection and everything, all the beautiful
stuff that comes out and the information happens.
So I'd encourage people to do that.
And also, I mean, it's, it's ironically in healthcare, we
(33:01):
probably spend more money on CPDand than any other kind of
profession. We're continuously being told we
need to do it. And, and we've got imposter
syndrome because guess what, I love this stuff we're doing
doesn't help our clients. So we get nervous because of
that. So we have to pay more money in
this is vicious circle. But I really think we've reached
now in 2025, I'm so happy that Ican honestly say that there's
(33:22):
lots of options out there of quality CPD where yes, you'll
pay some money, but you'll come out with not just a, a skill
with your hands or another way of assessing someone.
You'll come out with an outlook,a new mindset, which foundation
in the true sense of the word. It'll be like the roots which
will allow you as an individual.That's how all CPD should be
really devised anyway, really. So it's and, and they're not too
(33:46):
difficult to find these people. I mean, I mean, that's my job.
If you listen to the sports. This isn't an advert by the way,
Jack, this is if you listen to the Sports Therapy Association
podcast, all the people I've talked to, I've got my biases.
Sometimes I've thought about purposely having a guest who I
don't really agree with that much, but I think that wouldn't
be what I'm about. So all of my guests are
delivering courses and things and information, which is done
(34:09):
with that paramount important thing of allowing the therapists
and the delegates to take it on board and then flourish.
All you're doing is, is is empowering in the true sense,
the word, this incredible personwho wants to help others and
you're giving them a few little tweaks and tools just to already
change the power they've got to do that.
And that's what it should be. So agree I think.
(34:33):
I so agree with that Matt, and thanks for articulating it so
beautifully. I, I often think back to when I
was a young physio going on lotsof courses and you know, at
times being unkind to myself, I've said I was arrogant because
I refused always to take this the course wholesale and apply
(34:58):
it. And maybe there was a bit of
arrogance or exuberance of youth, but it was just, it
wasn't actually a decision. It's just that was my behaviour
trait to listen to people, probably not consciously, but
subconsciously think, OK, what are the principles here?
I'll learn those, I'll make sureI understand the principles and
(35:18):
then I will go out into the world and I'll basically do it
my way. And, you know, I, I don't know
why that was my natural approach, but it was.
And I totally agree with you that that's a much more
respectful to more to teach moreovertly expecting that from the
people who've paid you money andcome to listen to you.
(35:41):
I think it's a much more respectful way to teach, as you
say, to, to to respect and trustthat these people in front of
you are highly intelligent people with a great
understanding of their own worlds and their own clients.
And you're there, as you say, toteach a foundation and not a
foundation in terms of a whole world of not a a foundational
(36:04):
layer that they can then go and build on and probably have
insights that you yourself wouldnever have had.
And, you know, hopefully you'll learn from them one day when you
see how they're applying it as well.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that type of education
is a really sensible thing to look for and I think that in
some ways will will counter thatsense of imposter syndrome
(36:28):
because if you are just taking on a guru's specifics, how can
that possibly apply perfectly inyour own world?
And then you think it's you, don't you?
You think you've applied it wrong or misunderstood or
something? Yeah, I, I, I totally agree with
you. Could I ask you perhaps more
from your own personal experience when you have applied
(36:50):
these behaviour change coaching approaches with clients, What's
your own personal experience of how you feel yourself compared
to how you used to feel with a client?
You know, and again, thinking about this idea of well-being,
what's your personal experience been of applying these
approaches? I think I mean, as a clinician,
(37:16):
one of the reasons I, I, I feel confident in delivering courses
and stuff because I've been there as a clinician.
And I know that for a good chunkof time working in a
multidisciplinary clinic, I had the sensation that 50% of my
clients were not actually getting better thanks to me, you
know, I could felt it. And I think a lot of therapists,
well, not all therapists, but I think all therapists probably
(37:39):
have got 50% of their clients not getting better.
And now how much of that is due to the fact that you are
delivering kind of information that's not helping that much, or
how much is due to the fact thatthe the clients are just simply
doing their own thing and you just haven't established that
alliance on the note. But the fact is, I think as soon
as you recognise that and acceptit and start thinking, OK, how
(38:03):
can I make things better? Then what can I do?
What can I change? Just basically start thinking
inwards. Then it just takes the whole
weight off your shoulders because whilst you're trying to
maintain this Superman or super person kind of cloak on at the
door, come in and I will fix youon my couch.
And it's like inside your heart,there's a little voice always,
which is kind of going, you don't know what you're doing,
just fake it, fake it. You know, people say fake it to
(38:25):
your make it and then you realise you're never making it.
You're always having a fake it sort of thing.
So I, I think that's in our profession, especially in
healthcare, because you, I thinkmost people, I've said it
before, who enter healthcare aredoing it through altruistic
reasons. It's you really do, you're doing
it for the thank yous, for seeing the differences, for
making a difference. You're not really doing it for
(38:46):
the money because you're not going to make that much money.
It's not your driving force. You've arrived at this stage in
your life because you want to help people.
So I think that, you know, as we've discussed before, that
puts a whole load of onus on your shoulders and and stress.
So once you turn things around and take that Cape off and
realise that all you are is a sound board, you're a chance for
(39:11):
this person coming in to feel comfortable, relaxed, maybe the
first time in a decade that somebody actually hasn't been
through what they're they've gone through.
Because that's kind of obviouslythe difference, isn't it?
Empathy and sympathy and stuff. But they are listening and, and
this is where the skills come into, I think.
I mean, I did when people ask meabout CPD, I'm not all of it
(39:33):
because again, there's a guru status with it.
But motivational interviewing, Ithink for the right person at
the right time can open up all sorts of ideas.
And there's there's nice examples of skills which you
wouldn't have known unless someone told you about it with
things like affirming and reflecting and some of the kind
of almost like sneakier things of.
And the one I always remember was when you're listening to a
(39:55):
client and we talk about active listening, and they're
unrevealing everything and thinking, yeah, this is easy.
All I've got to do is sit here and now and again put my hand
over my mouth and not say anything.
But then when you do say something, I love the point.
It was with Doctor Gary Mendoza.And I hadn't heard this before,
but it was like when you are reflecting or showing.
Reflecting in particular, the idea is you just repeat what the
(40:17):
client said so that they can tell that you're listening.
But if you go up at the end. It turns into a question because
that's what questions do so if you go oh, so so you really
can't handle not going for PB atthe end of your park run.
Now that because it's a question, it's enough for the
person who was just about unpeeling themselves to stop
(40:37):
because the focus is now on I'vebeen asked the question and and
it's gone OK, and and and and those layers are going to start
going back on again. And if all you just simply do.
It's just the one in a lots of examples of how just having
someone share this with you, youcan change everything if you
just go down at the end. Oh, so you find it difficult.
And part of it's not to go for the PB the whole time.
(40:59):
That's enough for the person to tick the box saying, wow, this
person's actually listening to me, but still continue their
train of thought. You haven't invaded what they
were thinking of. And that's just the one example
of such a nice technique which you can get and it makes such a
difference because now suddenly your patients are staying in
their world, they're revealing everything you need.
(41:20):
And there's plenty more, which is why if people are stuck and
they like something else, and I've recommended it to some
people, I'm careful to say it's not right for everybody and
watch out because there are someterrible videos of am I out
there and stuff. But but it's enough to make you
realise there's some skills I haven't got yet that could
really make my life easier. And they're not, it's not rocket
science. So yeah, I think it's, yeah.
(41:42):
I don't know if that answers your question.
It's a bit of a tangent, but. I kind of remember what my
question has to do with. It, it was, yeah.
It was how to take the pressure off whether it works.
I think it does, and often quitequickly as long as you you
choose the right avenues of exploration and get rid of this
Cape. Yeah, absolutely.
And I've written down to phrasesthat I love that you just said,
and I'm going to steal them if that's all right.
(42:05):
I think not mind. They'd be that they are yours
because they were within your sentences.
I'm just not even sure that you knew you'd said them.
You said this. You are a chance for somebody to
feel better. And I think, gosh, if we all
said that to ourselves before wewere into the treatment room, I
am a chance here for this personto feel better.
I'd love the choice of the word chance because it it doesn't.
(42:27):
There's no guarantee. And that doesn't mean you absorb
yourself of all responsibility, but it does mean that you just
recognise that you are a chance.And you that might mean you're
the whole solution. It might mean you say one word,
which means something to them that day and and triggers
another Ave. with some other personal experience.
But yeah, you you are a chance. That's how I'm going into this
(42:49):
room that I am a chance for thisperson to feel better.
And then just at the end there, when you, you said you, you one
of your aims in your communications not to invade
their, I think you said to invade their thinking.
I mean, what a great, I think that's a great phrase which I
haven't heard anybody else say about not just active listening,
(43:10):
but also communicating when you're trying to draw things
out. You're not going in to invade.
You are going in to open up and help that person explore their
own territory, not to invade their territory.
Probably slightly provocative language to give them what's
going on in the world these days.
But yes, if we were all going into explore rather than invade in
(43:32):
many contexts, that would be a great thing.
I. Think it's a good word, Invade.
And hearing you say it because it is quite strong.
It's a motive. But in effect, that is what
you're doing. That person, It's it's it's it's
a very personal thing to fact. A person who might not have been
opening up at all with their loved ones, their families, they
could have just been crying by themselves.
(43:53):
But if you're doing it right, then they could.
It really is. If you suddenly come in with a
question, even though it's, wellintending, it invades their
thoughts, it destroys them, thenthey don't open up anymore.
And it's like it is an invasion.It's not, Yeah, not a willing
invasion. We're not talking Putin here,
but we're talking kind of. Yeah, no, it's great.
And in effect, I mean, this isn't my phrase.
(44:14):
I learnt it from a a coaching mentor I had.
But on my assessment forms when I'm coaching a client, one of my
prompts for my note taking is exploring the territory and you
know it. This coaching mentor taught me
this phrase. She said stay horizontal as long
as you can. At some point, you, you need to
(44:36):
go vertical because you'll find the, you know, the critical
issue. Oh, point for discussion.
And that's when you go down, Butyou, you don't rush to get
there. You stay horizontal and you
explore the territory for as long as possible.
And you now what you've just said equally do not invade that
territory. Literally go and explore with
(44:56):
them. I love it.
So some really lovely things come out in this conversation,
Matt, and you're such a busy person.
You're seeing lots of fabulous things, lovely things.
And I know you're, you've got that kind of mind that's always
looking to the next thing. So what, what is next for you?
(45:16):
Is there anything on the horizonthat you you are yet aware of?
Now I'm enjoying, I mean, thanksto like our friend in common
anime, Matt Sierra. She's really good at I, I
everyone's kind of says, oh, I've got must have been Potter
syndrome. Everyone kind of says it says
it's almost like a buzzword, which you can't say anymore.
But it's only because of her pushing me and saying no, Matt,
(45:40):
you know, courses are slow. People are doing everything
online now. So she's a wonderful person in
my life who goes, Matt, just persevere with it.
You've got a great message. You deliver it really nicely.
People need it. Just because they're not
flocking up to go on your courses doesn't mean you've got
to stop. And that's great because I, and
I think that's I like saying that out loud because whoever
you are, and I'm sure it's, I'm sure you would admit it as well.
(46:01):
We all need certain people in our life who do guide us and
give us a little bit of a push sometimes and it from different
angles. You all need different kind of
types of help. But but yeah, so I'm still
persevering with that. It's a hard slog.
As I'm sure you know, we live ina world now where everything is
catch up on demand videos. I'm still very much champion
learning through face to face contact.
(46:23):
I think it's massively important, the same as when I
talk about collaboration in thisepisode, I'm talking about face
to face collaboration. I'm talking about meeting up
with somebody, shaking their hand, getting that alliance with
your fellow therapist, not just talking on Twitter.
I mean, that can be a nice introduction or I know, or
definitely not Twitter, but not just talking on some other
better social media platform. But you need to meet up with
(46:44):
these people. And that's when, again, the
layers will come off and you'll get that.
But it's. Yeah.
So I'm still persevering with that.
And now I get such a kick. I had a wonderful, what I really
liked about my recent course in Manchester at Jack's Place,
actually in Chew's health was I had a degree, sports scientists,
we had a podiatrist, we had a couple of physios, we had a
(47:05):
massage therapist. And it was just, again, I'm
sitting back. I've opened up a little dialogue
for them and they just sat back and let them crack on with it.
And then that's just my bliss soI can have a little look and
that's when I learn about is this working now?
Are they getting on like I planned?
Is it going right? But it's just so it was such a
nice example of multidisciplinary.
It was so easy then to talk about multidisciplinary care and
(47:27):
patient focus because they'd allbeen doing it and they'd all
been embracing each other and itwas just traditionally different
hierarchies of levels of knowledge.
But they were all enthralled when the massage therapist was
talking about, you know, how touch can help this and that.
And they're all just, it was wonderful.
So I do that more than anything out of my for my own personal
satisfaction and development. But we're looking at, again,
(47:52):
through the Sports Therapy Association podcast, we're
looking at more regional events to try and reach more people.
Accessibility is a big thing on our list this year.
So we're going to try and do them around the country.
Still the same as you after Therapy Expo, I was still, I was
a little bit this year. This is the best way.
But the fact is there's still 45000 people who walk through
(48:15):
the door. So I'm still involved with that.
And actually I sit on a panel of, of advisory people who
there's a good vibe there. The message is still
multidisciplinary. I had attended a meeting the
other day and it was, it was good information coming out.
There was a unification of, of different disciplines and a
common knowledge. So I still very much want to be
(48:35):
part of that and to help that and develop into something as as
good as it can be so. And you told me about something
which I thought sounded great just before we came on air about
where you're going to take your podcast.
I love that idea. Do you want to share that?
I. Forgot about that.
You've got such a good memory, such a good for now.
Yeah, I know I've felt people who aren't aware that the Sports
(48:55):
Therapy Association podcast cameout of COVID basically like so
many other kind of improved communication, kind of fountains
of knowledge and that and and we've so now we're like 235
weeks in and I've managed to have such incredible guests like
including yourself and Joanne and, and every week is just a
bliss for me. I I look forward to it.
I wake up and when I go, yes, today's Tuesday.
I can't wait. And and I, I just as enthralled
(49:18):
when I finished with it, But I'mjust conscious that it's every
week and I'm not practicing whatI preach.
I'm putting out this informationthat I tell people you have to
reflect and think about it. And every week is too much.
So what we've taken decision nowis I'm going to stop having
guests for a while and just I'm inviting clinicians from any
(49:39):
discipline just to come in to the show.
As long as they've got a decent Wi-Fi connection, that's all.
Just come and have a little chatwith me and talk about a
particular episode which resonated with them, which
affected their practice. And I think there's so much good
that could come out of that because it'll be great for the
clinician who basically has the confidence to come onto the show
(50:00):
and talk about it. It will be absolutely adored by
listeners because people love hearing real life clinicians
coming in, talking about their experiences.
And also it'll give us a chance to actually highlight and
reflect on some of the amazing 200 odd episodes which we've had
and bring them up to the front as well, some of which have
evolved. I'll be inviting some guests
back to kind of show how what they said 3 or 4 five years ago
(50:21):
might have changed, but it's allabout reflection, isn't it?
An evolution of thought. So that's what I'm going to try
and do for the next year, hopefully on the podcast.
Still do it every week, but it'll be chance for a shorter 30
minute chat about yeah, topics that change practice in the real
world. I love that.
And and that builds entirely on what you were saying about your
(50:42):
principles for teaching. You've put some information out
there and now you're interested to see how people interpret it
for themselves. And, you know, like we said when
we were talking about it just before we came on air, there'll
probably be insights that come back that even the the original
guest talking about it had hadn't sort of, you know,
(51:02):
connections hadn't made themselves.
I think you'll probably get muchmore value out of your content
by by getting other people's views back on it.
I think it's a brilliant idea. Then it must be a good idea.
And yes, another thing I'm goingto do, I'm going to get you to
come and do your course at my multidisciplinary clinic, mainly
(51:27):
just because if Jack's had you up there, then I'm going.
But yeah, it would be fabulous. We're a similarly
multidisciplinary team. Yeah, let's book that in.
That would be great. That would be amazing.
I would love that deal. That would be great.
Where are you on the South Coast?
I am in Lancing, which is basically where people go when
(51:47):
they realise they can't afford Hove anymore.
They they realise they can, theyhave to move across it went
through Shoreham and then along a bit.
It always travels W for some reason.
But yeah, it's kind of between Shoreham and Worthing.
Lancerotti, we like to call it. Lancerotti Well, that that's OK,
because that must surely mean that they, you know, the vibe is
(52:07):
coming your way. If everybody is moving out of
Hove into or, you know, moving on from Hove, you've got to be
the next best thing. Oh no, it's lovely.
No, I'm very lucky. It's it's by the sea, which I
love and yeah, that's fantastic.We won the Downs as well, so
it's great for runners. You've got the choice of a
beautiful sea front or going up onto the hill, so it's, yeah,
it's an ideal location. Sounds gorgeous.
(52:29):
Well, thank you so much, Matt. Fabulous discussion, really
enjoyed it. And yes, I'll look forward to us
meeting in person when you come and run your course at
Courtyard. Amazing.
Thank you so much. It's always, it's just a
pleasure listening to your voicebasically, but even better when
the questions are so good. So thank you.
Have a lovely rest of your day and have a lovely weekend.
(52:49):
Take care. Same to you.
Thanks. Cheers, Matt.
Well, a lovely conversation thathour just flew by.
I really enjoyed talking to Mattand I love his insights into
lots of things, but specificallyhis attitude to how to conduct
education, how to be respectful when you're teaching people.
(53:11):
And I really loved his slant on working with runners and the
impact that mental health and emotional social aspects are
inevitably and of course going to have on runners performance.
If you on hearing that would love Matt to come to your clinic
(53:32):
or to your hospital organizationand deliver that course, then
please do get in touch. I can't believe having heard the
way that he delivers the the style he delivers it, that you
wouldn't want to be a part of that.
So do go and check Matt's website out.
I should have asked him at the end for contact details, but
(53:52):
I'll make sure those are in the notes.
Get in touch and and get him to come and share his wisdom or
share his foundation with you. Also an ashamed personal plug if
you were intrigued by the types of coaching conversations we
were talking about. If you don't know ready by now,
(54:13):
Joanne Alfenstein and I are running a course later this year
in June called Coaching Unpeeled.
And it's designed specifically to introduce coaching principles
that can be derived, can be applied directly in your
clinical world. And it's there's there's some
(54:34):
theory in the course, but it's also very practical.
There's going to be lots of opportunities to help you bring
up patient scenarios and in fact, go away and practice with
your own patients and clients because it's all very well
talking about these types of conversations.
It's only when you experience conducting them and then hearing
what comes back when you use these these interesting and
(54:55):
powerful communication techniques that the method
really starts to bed in. So I will also include some
information on that course and how you can get involved in that
if you're interested. So remember the reason why all
these things are important, the reason why we spend so much time
on this podcast talking about your own well-being and how
(55:19):
making changes in the clinical world are not only better for
patients, but we're interested in the ones that are better for
you. The reason we do that is because
you matter. You are absolutely front and
centre a part of delivering the services.
If you are not well, then the service is not well and is not
(55:41):
progressing in the way that we talked about on this podcast.
So please do remember, the reason why all of that is
important is because you matter.
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