October 19, 2025 • 24 mins
Physio Matters and Physiquipe have joined forces in a partnership to enable access to best in class clinical education AND clinical technology. The collaborative aim to improve rehabilitation standards for better patient outcomes across the MSK landscape is intentionally challenging and lofty. It also aligns perfectly with both Physiquipe and Physio Matters respective aims helping to elevate both simultaneously!
Interested in Diagnostic Ultrasound and/or shockwave for your clinic? Go to this link and if you get a machine then you will unlock 3 years of Physio Matters Premium Membership at no extra cost!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Delighted to be here with Andy and Dom from FIS Equip.
And I love it every time I pronounce it right, which is a
rare thing, right? So I'm chuffed every time I do
so. We've been, this has been a long
time coming because we've been scheming behind the scenes and
it's pretty cool to be announcing some of the stuff
we've got planned before we get stuck into the stuff we're going
to do together. Tell me a little bit about each
(00:25):
of you, what your roles are and what the business is doing.
So I'm the founder and director at Physical Whip.
We've been going for nearly 14 years now, which is hard to
believe. And I've worked previously in
the industry doing something similar to what we do now.
And I'm all about how do we inspire growth, bring people
together. Mainly we do that around
technology and education around that tech, so capital equipment.
(00:47):
And we, I love getting out therechatting with people like you
and really sharing all the positives that are in the
industry. Brilliant and Dom is your role.
Head of business development nowbut still have a couple of hats
with clinical apps, so helping people understand the kit and
how to apply it meaningfully into practice.
The head of BD is looking obviously from a strategic
perspective, how to grow the business in line with what Andy
(01:10):
was saying then. I don't believe I've been with
you for 11 1/2 years now. I think it is.
So can't get rid of me. Now the we talk about the kit,
the tech, that sort of stuff, right?
I know you've had different iterations and stuff.
We've spoken about this before, but now it seems more and more
obvious that our worlds align because you are very much seen
(01:30):
as an MSK tech company, hardwarecompany.
Is that always been the case? How does it emerge that way?
What are your interests and how does that align?
From my side, so when you're starting out, so historically it
was MSK that I would work in. Previously it was a lot more NHS
centric. That was also because that's
just where the market was and that people were spending more
in that and the kit that we had.And then really when I set the
(01:54):
company up, we took some of thatproduct over with us.
But you're also, you're looking at what product you can get.
Like it's not always easy to find reputable manufacturers
that you can work with. So there's a bit of toing and
froing. So it was just me when we
started out. But really what I'm passionate
about, my background sport science is I like the MSK
(02:15):
fields. So I really love that.
So we're always looking at what products we can bring that we
can genuinely have an impact with.
So when when Don joined us, we were working in all sorts of
areas like lymphedema, cancer, rehab, as well as some stuff in
MSK. And it's just difficult for us
to do a really good job for the the target audience that we want
(02:36):
and also build a scalable business.
So I think as, as they say in all the books, like really
trying to narrow your focus, target the market that you're
looking to really help and that's what we've done over the
years. And your background is Ms. Care
as well. So that obviously felt great
that if, if, if the businesses had taken an increasing
lymphedema focus, then I imagineyou wouldn't have been as close
(02:58):
to your bull's eye as. You might.
I mean, it was really interesting when I came in
because Physique had a clinic atthe time, which is where where I
came in and I think it was quiteunique.
That's what drew me to physique quit was because Andy set up
this clinic where all the equipment that we're selling we
were using in practice. So it was like practice what you
preach kind of thing very much. And for me to have the
opportunity working at the time with the anti gravity Alta G,
(03:21):
the big Primus machine and a couple of other bits, it was
like I was like, whoa, this is afresh out of uni and using this
kind of stuff. It was amazing.
But then like going into lymphedema, cancer, rehab,
burns, it's really eye opening because even if it is, yes, it's
not MSK, but it is dealing with a lot of soft tissue problems
and they're all dealing with same or very, very similar
issues. Exercise, rehab, getting back to
(03:42):
exactly, it's quite eye opening to see different fields.
The amount of crossover that wasthere.
I mean, like in a day, I'd go into from a cosmetics clinic to
an elite sports practice to a burns rehab and they'd all have
similarities in a sense. They've all got a patient,
they're trying to get them back to activity and it was amazing
how much I could take from a burns clinic that was dealing
(04:06):
with scars and how that can go into elite sport when they're
dealing with scar post surgically.
Sure, it was really interesting.I think it was it opened my eyes
up. But then I think to actually
like, say, narrow the focus intoMSK sports Med.
I think for us as a business, I think at the time it was like,
what do you guys do? And there's a bit of confusion.
And I think that really specialising that area I think
(04:26):
has been really good. And it's a passion of mine.
It's a passion of everybody thatworks.
We're all quite sporty individuals as well.
So it's it's, it's sits nice, I think.
It's broken record here, especially for the listeners and
viewers that have heard me say this many a time.
But generally, if you assess someone's functional needs,
regardless of what those needs are, and look at scaling their
functional ability, then the similarities between someone in
(04:49):
even in an intensive care unit or a burns unit compared to
someone on the, on the sports that, that, that is the
unification that comes from rehabilitation and graded
exposure and the use of the technologies for that.
The way in which we integrate our skill sets, styles of
practice, all the debates that we can have within MSK, which we
do and we should continue to that unification is, is
consistent. But similarly, it can be
(05:11):
confusing if it's too broad. You know, you always use this
example of different lenses. We've got to have that fisheye
lens to see the big picture, butthere's room for a microscope on
certain things as well. And, and, and knowing when
you're behind each of those lenses is important.
It's been really cool to watch your evolution over time, Don.
We worked with you on some content.
Particularly we're looking for saying voices in the direction
of shockwave, people that weren't using and advocating for
(05:33):
shockwave machines to just be glorified massage tools or
blasting people for Dom's in bodybuilders.
You know, that's sometimes unfortunately something that
people underestimate. How much of that had
proliferated when people could get them into the hands of
whoever would buy them off them and personal trainers were
digging them into people's ITB's.
So we were looking for people tosort of speak sense into that
and you were doing so and continue to do so.
(05:54):
You then made some content with us, but also said, right, what
might, especially under your business development side, what
might we do together? And it started to mature the
conversations that have led us to now.
Tell me a little bit if you can,because I don't necessarily know
the answer to this. Is that what it felt that meant
that you were like we should do more together and why you felt
our values were aligned? I mean, like you say, you've
(06:17):
been watching sort of our development.
The thing was likewise as well. And no, COVID was a big shift
for us. It's that realignment.
And then we've had discussions about how COVID was an alignment
for you as well with doing things.
And I think it's the case with everybody.
The work that you guys have beendoing with Visio Matters and the
the educational hub. We've been doing more with the
Academy and education side of things.
(06:39):
And it's like, yeah, we're selling equipment, but it was
also like this educational gap. There's a lot of noise out there
with various different suppliers, key opinion leaders
or voicing their opinions, thoughts, ideas off of research
and whatever else. And it's how do you make sense
of what's going on? And then you've got a great
(07:00):
platform, good thoughts, challenging I think in a, in a
way which some people can take in different ways.
But I think that's what we like to try and do is just try and
constructively challenge, understand what people's
challenges are, what their theirissues may be from a clinical
business perspective. And I think as we spoke more and
more where you're sitting with that transformative of MSK, like
(07:26):
how can we elevate things, really identify the gaps and how
can we actually help people, whatever their, the goal is in
their business, whether it's clinical, whether it's a
business goal, it's getting patients better, whatever that
might be. And I think as the conversations
developed, it's like, you know, we, we were discussing about
various different gaps in bits and pieces.
That's where the diagnostic ultrasound came up, because
(07:47):
there's, there's things that rapidly come to the market and
then more questions come up thananswers.
And it's trying to, it's trying to create a trusted voice in
this space that gives, we'd liketo try and be as unbalanced as
possible. Of course, we're going to have
natural biases towards the equipment that we sell.
Yeah, sorry, balance. Sorry.
Yeah. Thank you.
(08:08):
Yeah, yeah. Give balanced views.
And I think it's and having asking uncomfortable questions,
I think as well and and really challenging people's positions
on things in a constructive positive way because we're all
trying to achieve the same thing.
We're all trying to get patientsbetter.
So I think it's how can we do that?
Yeah, Andy, when the business was in various different
(08:30):
iterations, you could easily have gone down a route and you
know, it wouldn't have been our to our taste, but you could you
could easily have just created and proliferated sales reps that
were doorstep in clinics to, youknow, do the high tech
equivalent of opening a cup to various different things that
they were selling on a doorstep.Now that'd be rude to say that
all Med tech supplies are like that, but some of them
(08:52):
absolutely are. You consciously lent into
education support, made that something that people would then
not just purchasing a piece of hardware.
They were understanding the way in which they could integrate
that into that practice and you were speaking a clinical
language to them, even when thatmight be a loss lead in the in
the early stages. I can't believe that that were
an accident. So what is it that made you make
(09:13):
that call I. Think sometimes there's not
always that much science to to these things.
I want to create something genuinely great.
So I want people to love workingwith us.
I want our team to love their job.
That's really important to me. And of course, money and profit
is really important in that. And I'm a big fan for for
advocating that for clinicians as well and how how we improve
(09:34):
that. But I think really it's, I want
to help people and the way we think we help people is by maybe
challenging them on certain things, but also trying to
challenge them not in a criticalway, but is that actually what
they're looking to do? And how do we best do that?
It's by understanding some elements of that clinical
(09:56):
pathway rather than just any sort of commercial budget those
things. That's definitely an element of
it. But we've got to understand the
challenges or at least be understand enough to be able to
ask good questions to really understand the challenges.
And yeah, but that's, that's thedriver for me is I could I'm
sure make a lot more money by doing different things.
(10:16):
But that's that's really not thedriver for me.
Money is definitely important, profits definitely really
important. But the main thing is creating
something genuinely good that I'm proud of doing.
It's what it's one of the thingsthat's hardest for people to
understand is that what you're selling is really relevant for
the ethics of the of the processof, of accumulating profit that
(10:37):
you then able to reinvest in theproliferation of quality.
And it's challenging for people on that.
And I know you've done more workthan anyone sort of broadcasting
some of the careers and and ideas of people that have done
that. Well, one of the areas where we
have had parallel tracks is thatwe've both got a platform in
which we've then been offering some influence in the sector.
(10:58):
My stuff has always been gettinginto the clinical weeds and
sometimes sort of holding a lineon sometimes how we treat frozen
shoulders, sometimes it's how weconstruct a service, right.
Yours has been certainly more onyour life stories and
increasingly on leading the field.
You've then been showcasing sortof biographically people's
stories, their personal story, how that intersects to their
(11:20):
professional story, including I was on your show a few years ago
and I know you've got a book coming out to a similar effect.
That is that whilst they are in a similar space, there has been
a difference in style. Certainly I haven't heard you
say boot to a goose much. I'm sort of known for saying
boot to a goose. So there's some people that
(11:40):
would look on and think there's an incompatibility there.
We know behind the scenes as a shared value, we're talking a
bit about why we feel that this fills gaps.
But for those that might be wondering, and also I'll admit,
this is me spotting you on the question.
You know, it's like I'm interested in that idea.
Where do you see that compatibility?
Or am I over over exaggerating the difference?
No, I'm supposed to talk about my stuff.
(12:01):
So I every podcast that I do, I love doing it.
I feel really privileged to whoever I'm interviewing and
I'll remember little bits and pieces from everything like from
our chat, which is a few years ago now.
And I'm I love people are doing things in the industry and
that's a key component for me istrying to find people I think
(12:21):
are doing interesting and exciting things.
And that may come around from wehaven't really spent much time
together. When we did the podcast, I
really enjoyed hearing it. I was aware of your platform and
it's really opened a lot of doors for me.
So it's for one, it's been very helpful from a business
perspective. It's really helped with
credibility for me and for the company.
I think it is interesting for people to get insights into it.
(12:42):
I think I am an optimist. So when I'm chatting to people,
I do look for the good in stuff and I'm always looking for tell
me more about what you've done in terms of this.
And some people a lot like I give you an example in terms of
in football, people will say I've worked with a lot of good
people and with reference that they've had worked with bad
people. And you might what I would
(13:03):
question on that is, is the environment right for that?
That's one of the things that I've taken away from a lot of
this and it's I'm always lookingfor what's the good in that?
How do we, how do we, how do we utilize that?
And then with the lead in the field 1 So when I'm going there
for one, also for both of them, people are giving up their time
to, to speak to me, which I really value and, and respect.
(13:25):
And also I think there's good pretty much in what everyone's
doing. Everyone who's got a clinic,
it's stressful, it's money, it'srisk, all of these things.
So I'm looking, right, How can we help grow and develop those
things? How can I understand it?
How can I share whatever you say, best practices, what this
clinic considers best practice and showcase that to the
(13:47):
industry? So that's why I doing it really.
And then when I'm all the leading the field, when I go
into different clinics, it's really showcasing what I do
pretty much identically to what I would do if the cameras
weren't on. Talk to me about this.
Why have you done this? What's your team?
What's your culture? What's your ethos?
So really it is that's thought. Why not just record this stuff?
(14:08):
Because that is the way that I would do it.
And my approach is a 1 of optimism.
It's not to say that we wouldn'tchallenge something that we
think was really wrong, but mineis more about the optimistic
route. What can we do rather than that
shit? And that's that's just my
approach in life in general. Yeah, I know.
It's something that's especiallywhen something is so
(14:29):
biographical, they're telling a story.
It's something that unless you really wanted to Fact Check them
on their own CV, it'd be bizarreto be challenging.
Obviously with with my stuff controversial sometimes in that
we try to make sure we're critical of ideas and concepts
and, and what people have put out there rather than the actual
individuals. But we'd always get that right.
But it's just something that I know looking on, people might
(14:52):
think that that's not as compatible as we're describing
it to be. But on a business level, when
we've been increasingly talking about the companies coming
together in partnership, it it seemed obvious to me that we're
talking such a similar language in elevation of MSK best
practice for us. We had a gaping hole in how we
would integrate technologies into that right.
I've been sometimes too strong on saying that there's just so
(15:15):
many gimmicks and gadgets and gizmos, and I know why I have
that instinct. I know what that's been.
I know what that's meant over the years.
I know what machines have been placed on people for no good,
good reason. It has bothered me Now I know
though sometimes that's closed me off to some of the ways in
which we need to wise up and I've been slower on the uptake
there and I need to hold my hands up in certain spaces for
(15:37):
it. You know, shop was not a bad
example really whereby I, it took for I was, I was slower on
the uptake in where it might be appropriate just because of the
fact that it might have been being used in abuse that wasn't
as precise. And So what we, what we're
thinking of doing and working together on is knowing we've
made those mistakes and we need to recognize that if indeed
(15:59):
something like point of care ultrasound in MSK is what is
going to be increasingly what defines best practice
assessment, then. So me, me sat there with me
fingers in me ears saying, yeah,I'll get round to it one day.
It's just not good enough. And when we need therefore to
work with those that know the technology, the hardware, as
well as some of the personnel that are, that are leading the
(16:19):
field in that space. It's just some one of those
things that made me realise now we need some, we need some out
round here. And, and who's doing it well?
And we and we, we found that to be a perfect match really.
Yeah. And just just to add on that bit
as well is that I'm pretty dispassionate about every bit of
equipment we've ever worked with.
I can't say I love ultrasound orshockwave.
I can't like Dom, Dom does. Loves it.
(16:42):
But that's it. But I and even like my
understanding of it is pretty much a basic level for all of
it. But I feel like I do understand
people and I understand the impact it has.
How do we help provide great tools for people in there?
So what, that's what drives me for it.
Dom's more looking at the patient side of things and how
we help that bit minds. How do we help people,
(17:03):
clinicians and businesses improve doing what they're
doing? And it's definitely a
partnership piece rather than it's like, Oh yeah, come and buy
this particular bit of equipmentbecause it does XY and Z.
It's it's a further step back from that.
And and partnerships are so important.
I don't think there's any business on this planet that has
got to any level of success without having a partnership in
some way, shape or form. But it's equipment supply or
(17:25):
service supply, whatever it might be.
There's always another party that has to support with what
you're doing. And I think like you mentioned
then we thought the different equipment, there's so much noise
out there. And I think we kind of bury our
heads in the sand I think a little bit with the commercial
influence of this stuff. Like we use companies that are
selling products with decent margins on them.
As a clinician as well, it's like I do have that element of I
(17:48):
want to make sure that people are clinically getting the right
technology that fits their practice, which the private
practice will help them from a business standpoint as well.
So even understanding that is being really important.
I think there's so much noise out there and there's so many
different products. I mean, we had the privilege
going to Medicare a few years back, first time I went and it's
every man and his dog has got the best version of that
(18:09):
technology. And everybody's got the same
pitch. Everybody's got the same counter
points against the competitor and you just, I think after
about an hour I was like everybody's got the best laser
on the market. It's so.
Difficult. It's interesting.
That's one of the reasons why itreally piqued my interest in
terms of like, yeah, when we were trying to work out we
(18:30):
should do something, but what? Yeah, we have a menu, right.
People buy adverts on our magazine and they might want
some exposure on a particular event we're doing and and good
on them that's not a problem. But that that is a sort of off
shelf item. You guys were interested in
working together, but on something that was a bit more of
(18:51):
an had a bit more novelty to it and and that I really was
interested in that because it was like what would it look
like? Let's be a bit more interesting
on how we solve that. And especially I'm not going to
give too much away, but a littlebit of a teaser is that there
are so many open questions aboutthe threshold of which people
might in their career be smart to start developing something
(19:11):
like point of care ultrasound. And it might well be that that
is not ASAP. It might well be that there is a
baseline and anatomical knowledge that comes from
something prior that we don't yet know that isn't wise for
them to do that and it might confuse them.
Does it make clinicians too tissue centric all of a sudden?
Or is it that actually it's it'ssensible for them to and could
really elevate their abilities? We just don't know those things.
(19:34):
And so we're going to go about trying to answer some of those
in ways that we would have been exposed as educators and
influencers to not really understand what that means for
an ROI for a clinic and what what points of bravery it would
mean for an investment and how that looks.
We didn't know that. And so you guys are obviously
closer to it. And so solving those problems
together and taking our community and share community on
(19:56):
a journey with that is one of the things that really excites
me. Well, I was going to say that
definitely like none of us, I'vebeen doing it 20 years in this
industry. I'm learning stuff all the time.
Like we were just chatting with one of our colleagues who's been
with us for 10 weeks and it's she's teaching us stuff like
within that time period. And it's the same with with what
you've been doing it for a long time.
(20:18):
We'll come together and we'll learn a lot from like, right,
Actually, what could we do? The Gap, Chris Myers, Rob
Louses, Smug. Those guys, they've been doing
it for a long time, but I think they're always learning with
what they're doing. So the more stuff we can do
collaboratively and albeit your approach is slightly different
than your more say confrontational or
controversial, whatever you might say, but great, there's a
different, there's a place for everyone in terms of what
(20:40):
they're doing and it's not for us.
Whether it's ultrasound, shockwave, force plates, there's
loads of brilliant stuff out there and it's all of us really
should. Our goal is to raise the level
of investment in all of it. But for the right people at the
right time and there's, there's loads of scope for maybe not as
many as there are shock waves atMedica because of a lot of
(21:01):
those. But it's these that's there's,
there's the place for everythingevery.
I really believe that everythingwill find its way if it's done
with integrity and done at the right level with it.
And again, if it means sometimesyou're going to piss people off
with certain things, but yeah, Idon't really think there's
anyone out there that's trying to do a shit job or trying to do
something negative, no. Provocation for provocation's
(21:24):
sake is, is just something that of course is short lived.
I think that certainly there were times and phases,
especially when we were early inthe process and podcasting was
novel and, and, and it was seen as being sort of controversial
as a means of a flash in the pan.
We get less of that now because,of course, we're 12 years into
it and we're not going anywhere.And people are realizing now
that no, OK, that was something that there was something in it
(21:45):
and we've got things that we might want to correct the record
on. There's other things that were
like, well, actually we're aheadof things and yeah, felt a bit
uncouth and a bit impolite, but that was partly because of the
culture of excessive politeness that was letting some bad
practice linger. And so we always get it right.
But generally speaking, one of the things that's exciting about
building these relationships is that you, you, you then have to
(22:06):
have an element of appropriate sort of macro diplomacy of
thinking about what is the raising of standards for the
industry rather than it just being according to any one
person. It has to be negotiated.
And we try to do that as much aswe can in public.
And that's one of the things that's exciting about these
next. And actually like raising
practice, it's like I think people are doing a good job with
whatever that they're doing at the moment.
(22:26):
And I think it's trying to get their feedback as well.
Like we, we said before, we don't, we don't know the answers
to everything. We've, we're quite fortunate on
our side to an extent that on the side of industry, we get to
go to place like medic. We get to have these
conversations, not with people in the UK, but around the world,
understanding what new technologies might be coming
around, how different technologies are being utilised.
(22:47):
Let's not go down the AI route, but I think just having that
feedback from your market space or say it's a shared market
space, isn't it? Having that feedback and, and
identifying where those gaps are, identifying where people's
pain points are pain points are whether it's business, clinical,
whatever it might be, educational and we're in a
(23:09):
position to be able to cope. Brilliant.
We've had enough feedback there.Let's let's facilitate that for
those people. I think that's a big part of a
big passion where I've come in over the past few years is and
speak to so many people like, oh, you know, they're in their
room and they're head down the scene patient to patient,
patient. They very rarely come up for
air. But when they do come, friends
like let us know. Let us know how we can support
(23:29):
you and help you and do anything.
We've got to solve these problems and when those problems
are so shared, when it's so similar, it's so such a shame
when people are so isolated and feeling alone in those in those
moments. And that's what community needs
to be. One of your company values is
relationships matter. Of course, this is an important
relationship and partnership that we're going to be going
(23:49):
for, but also the fact that it has the word matter in its suit
of me. So I think it's a relationship
that's bound to. That's why we did it to.
Be honest, the main reason we'vegot to have a shared landing
page that is imminent and because I haven't got the actual
URL at the tip of my tongue yet,it means that I'm going to just
do this and point to wherever heputs the link on this video.
And I look forward to all the exciting news that we're going
(24:12):
to have for our community soon. But yeah, thanks a lot for
coming on the show. And it seems a perfect way for
us to just discuss the least thenext 12 months we've got
together. Yeah, thanks.
I really appreciate. It thanks Jack.
Looking forward to it. Thank you.
Delighted to be here with Andy and Dom from FIS Equip.
And I love it every time I pronounce it right, which is a
rare thing, right? So I'm chuffed every time I do
so. We've been, this has been a long
time coming because we've been scheming behind the scenes and
it's pretty cool to be announcing some of the stuff
we've got planned before we get stuck into the stuff we're going
to do together. Tell me a little bit about each
(00:25):
of you, what your roles are and what the business is doing.
So I'm the founder and director at Physical Whip.
We've been going for nearly 14 years now, which is hard to
believe. And I've worked previously in
the industry doing something similar to what we do now.
And I'm all about how do we inspire growth, bring people
together. Mainly we do that around
technology and education around that tech, so capital equipment.
(00:47):
And we, I love getting out therechatting with people like you
and really sharing all the positives that are in the
industry. Brilliant and Dom is your role.
Head of business development nowbut still have a couple of hats
with clinical apps, so helping people understand the kit and
how to apply it meaningfully into practice.
The head of BD is looking obviously from a strategic
perspective, how to grow the business in line with what Andy
(01:10):
was saying then. I don't believe I've been with
you for 11 1/2 years now. I think it is.
So can't get rid of me. Now the we talk about the kit,
the tech, that sort of stuff, right?
I know you've had different iterations and stuff.
We've spoken about this before, but now it seems more and more
obvious that our worlds align because you are very much seen
(01:30):
as an MSK tech company, hardwarecompany.
Is that always been the case? How does it emerge that way?
What are your interests and how does that align?
From my side, so when you're starting out, so historically it
was MSK that I would work in. Previously it was a lot more NHS
centric. That was also because that's
just where the market was and that people were spending more
in that and the kit that we had.And then really when I set the
(01:54):
company up, we took some of thatproduct over with us.
But you're also, you're looking at what product you can get.
Like it's not always easy to find reputable manufacturers
that you can work with. So there's a bit of toing and
froing. So it was just me when we
started out. But really what I'm passionate
about, my background sport science is I like the MSK
(02:15):
fields. So I really love that.
So we're always looking at what products we can bring that we
can genuinely have an impact with.
So when when Don joined us, we were working in all sorts of
areas like lymphedema, cancer, rehab, as well as some stuff in
MSK. And it's just difficult for us
to do a really good job for the the target audience that we want
(02:36):
and also build a scalable business.
So I think as, as they say in all the books, like really
trying to narrow your focus, target the market that you're
looking to really help and that's what we've done over the
years. And your background is Ms. Care
as well. So that obviously felt great
that if, if, if the businesses had taken an increasing
lymphedema focus, then I imagineyou wouldn't have been as close
(02:58):
to your bull's eye as. You might.
I mean, it was really interesting when I came in
because Physique had a clinic atthe time, which is where where I
came in and I think it was quiteunique.
That's what drew me to physique quit was because Andy set up
this clinic where all the equipment that we're selling we
were using in practice. So it was like practice what you
preach kind of thing very much. And for me to have the
opportunity working at the time with the anti gravity Alta G,
(03:21):
the big Primus machine and a couple of other bits, it was
like I was like, whoa, this is afresh out of uni and using this
kind of stuff. It was amazing.
But then like going into lymphedema, cancer, rehab,
burns, it's really eye opening because even if it is, yes, it's
not MSK, but it is dealing with a lot of soft tissue problems
and they're all dealing with same or very, very similar
issues. Exercise, rehab, getting back to
(03:42):
exactly, it's quite eye opening to see different fields.
The amount of crossover that wasthere.
I mean, like in a day, I'd go into from a cosmetics clinic to
an elite sports practice to a burns rehab and they'd all have
similarities in a sense. They've all got a patient,
they're trying to get them back to activity and it was amazing
how much I could take from a burns clinic that was dealing
(04:06):
with scars and how that can go into elite sport when they're
dealing with scar post surgically.
Sure, it was really interesting.I think it was it opened my eyes
up. But then I think to actually
like, say, narrow the focus intoMSK sports Med.
I think for us as a business, I think at the time it was like,
what do you guys do? And there's a bit of confusion.
And I think that really specialising that area I think
(04:26):
has been really good. And it's a passion of mine.
It's a passion of everybody thatworks.
We're all quite sporty individuals as well.
So it's it's, it's sits nice, I think.
It's broken record here, especially for the listeners and
viewers that have heard me say this many a time.
But generally, if you assess someone's functional needs,
regardless of what those needs are, and look at scaling their
functional ability, then the similarities between someone in
(04:49):
even in an intensive care unit or a burns unit compared to
someone on the, on the sports that, that, that is the
unification that comes from rehabilitation and graded
exposure and the use of the technologies for that.
The way in which we integrate our skill sets, styles of
practice, all the debates that we can have within MSK, which we
do and we should continue to that unification is, is
consistent. But similarly, it can be
(05:11):
confusing if it's too broad. You know, you always use this
example of different lenses. We've got to have that fisheye
lens to see the big picture, butthere's room for a microscope on
certain things as well. And, and, and knowing when
you're behind each of those lenses is important.
It's been really cool to watch your evolution over time, Don.
We worked with you on some content.
Particularly we're looking for saying voices in the direction
of shockwave, people that weren't using and advocating for
(05:33):
shockwave machines to just be glorified massage tools or
blasting people for Dom's in bodybuilders.
You know, that's sometimes unfortunately something that
people underestimate. How much of that had
proliferated when people could get them into the hands of
whoever would buy them off them and personal trainers were
digging them into people's ITB's.
So we were looking for people tosort of speak sense into that
and you were doing so and continue to do so.
(05:54):
You then made some content with us, but also said, right, what
might, especially under your business development side, what
might we do together? And it started to mature the
conversations that have led us to now.
Tell me a little bit if you can,because I don't necessarily know
the answer to this. Is that what it felt that meant
that you were like we should do more together and why you felt
our values were aligned? I mean, like you say, you've
(06:17):
been watching sort of our development.
The thing was likewise as well. And no, COVID was a big shift
for us. It's that realignment.
And then we've had discussions about how COVID was an alignment
for you as well with doing things.
And I think it's the case with everybody.
The work that you guys have beendoing with Visio Matters and the
the educational hub. We've been doing more with the
Academy and education side of things.
(06:39):
And it's like, yeah, we're selling equipment, but it was
also like this educational gap. There's a lot of noise out there
with various different suppliers, key opinion leaders
or voicing their opinions, thoughts, ideas off of research
and whatever else. And it's how do you make sense
of what's going on? And then you've got a great
(07:00):
platform, good thoughts, challenging I think in a, in a
way which some people can take in different ways.
But I think that's what we like to try and do is just try and
constructively challenge, understand what people's
challenges are, what their theirissues may be from a clinical
business perspective. And I think as we spoke more and
more where you're sitting with that transformative of MSK, like
(07:26):
how can we elevate things, really identify the gaps and how
can we actually help people, whatever their, the goal is in
their business, whether it's clinical, whether it's a
business goal, it's getting patients better, whatever that
might be. And I think as the conversations
developed, it's like, you know, we, we were discussing about
various different gaps in bits and pieces.
That's where the diagnostic ultrasound came up, because
(07:47):
there's, there's things that rapidly come to the market and
then more questions come up thananswers.
And it's trying to, it's trying to create a trusted voice in
this space that gives, we'd liketo try and be as unbalanced as
possible. Of course, we're going to have
natural biases towards the equipment that we sell.
Yeah, sorry, balance. Sorry.
Yeah. Thank you.
(08:08):
Yeah, yeah. Give balanced views.
And I think it's and having asking uncomfortable questions,
I think as well and and really challenging people's positions
on things in a constructive positive way because we're all
trying to achieve the same thing.
We're all trying to get patientsbetter.
So I think it's how can we do that?
Yeah, Andy, when the business was in various different
(08:30):
iterations, you could easily have gone down a route and you
know, it wouldn't have been our to our taste, but you could you
could easily have just created and proliferated sales reps that
were doorstep in clinics to, youknow, do the high tech
equivalent of opening a cup to various different things that
they were selling on a doorstep.Now that'd be rude to say that
all Med tech supplies are like that, but some of them
(08:52):
absolutely are. You consciously lent into
education support, made that something that people would then
not just purchasing a piece of hardware.
They were understanding the way in which they could integrate
that into that practice and you were speaking a clinical
language to them, even when thatmight be a loss lead in the in
the early stages. I can't believe that that were
an accident. So what is it that made you make
(09:13):
that call I. Think sometimes there's not
always that much science to to these things.
I want to create something genuinely great.
So I want people to love workingwith us.
I want our team to love their job.
That's really important to me. And of course, money and profit
is really important in that. And I'm a big fan for for
advocating that for clinicians as well and how how we improve
(09:34):
that. But I think really it's, I want
to help people and the way we think we help people is by maybe
challenging them on certain things, but also trying to
challenge them not in a criticalway, but is that actually what
they're looking to do? And how do we best do that?
It's by understanding some elements of that clinical
(09:56):
pathway rather than just any sort of commercial budget those
things. That's definitely an element of
it. But we've got to understand the
challenges or at least be understand enough to be able to
ask good questions to really understand the challenges.
And yeah, but that's, that's thedriver for me is I could I'm
sure make a lot more money by doing different things.
(10:16):
But that's that's really not thedriver for me.
Money is definitely important, profits definitely really
important. But the main thing is creating
something genuinely good that I'm proud of doing.
It's what it's one of the thingsthat's hardest for people to
understand is that what you're selling is really relevant for
the ethics of the of the processof, of accumulating profit that
(10:37):
you then able to reinvest in theproliferation of quality.
And it's challenging for people on that.
And I know you've done more workthan anyone sort of broadcasting
some of the careers and and ideas of people that have done
that. Well, one of the areas where we
have had parallel tracks is thatwe've both got a platform in
which we've then been offering some influence in the sector.
(10:58):
My stuff has always been gettinginto the clinical weeds and
sometimes sort of holding a lineon sometimes how we treat frozen
shoulders, sometimes it's how weconstruct a service, right.
Yours has been certainly more onyour life stories and
increasingly on leading the field.
You've then been showcasing sortof biographically people's
stories, their personal story, how that intersects to their
(11:20):
professional story, including I was on your show a few years ago
and I know you've got a book coming out to a similar effect.
That is that whilst they are in a similar space, there has been
a difference in style. Certainly I haven't heard you
say boot to a goose much. I'm sort of known for saying
boot to a goose. So there's some people that
(11:40):
would look on and think there's an incompatibility there.
We know behind the scenes as a shared value, we're talking a
bit about why we feel that this fills gaps.
But for those that might be wondering, and also I'll admit,
this is me spotting you on the question.
You know, it's like I'm interested in that idea.
Where do you see that compatibility?
Or am I over over exaggerating the difference?
No, I'm supposed to talk about my stuff.
(12:01):
So I every podcast that I do, I love doing it.
I feel really privileged to whoever I'm interviewing and
I'll remember little bits and pieces from everything like from
our chat, which is a few years ago now.
And I'm I love people are doing things in the industry and
that's a key component for me istrying to find people I think
(12:21):
are doing interesting and exciting things.
And that may come around from wehaven't really spent much time
together. When we did the podcast, I
really enjoyed hearing it. I was aware of your platform and
it's really opened a lot of doors for me.
So it's for one, it's been very helpful from a business
perspective. It's really helped with
credibility for me and for the company.
I think it is interesting for people to get insights into it.
(12:42):
I think I am an optimist. So when I'm chatting to people,
I do look for the good in stuff and I'm always looking for tell
me more about what you've done in terms of this.
And some people a lot like I give you an example in terms of
in football, people will say I've worked with a lot of good
people and with reference that they've had worked with bad
people. And you might what I would
(13:03):
question on that is, is the environment right for that?
That's one of the things that I've taken away from a lot of
this and it's I'm always lookingfor what's the good in that?
How do we, how do we, how do we utilize that?
And then with the lead in the field 1 So when I'm going there
for one, also for both of them, people are giving up their time
to, to speak to me, which I really value and, and respect.
(13:25):
And also I think there's good pretty much in what everyone's
doing. Everyone who's got a clinic,
it's stressful, it's money, it'srisk, all of these things.
So I'm looking, right, How can we help grow and develop those
things? How can I understand it?
How can I share whatever you say, best practices, what this
clinic considers best practice and showcase that to the
(13:47):
industry? So that's why I doing it really.
And then when I'm all the leading the field, when I go
into different clinics, it's really showcasing what I do
pretty much identically to what I would do if the cameras
weren't on. Talk to me about this.
Why have you done this? What's your team?
What's your culture? What's your ethos?
So really it is that's thought. Why not just record this stuff?
(14:08):
Because that is the way that I would do it.
And my approach is a 1 of optimism.
It's not to say that we wouldn'tchallenge something that we
think was really wrong, but mineis more about the optimistic
route. What can we do rather than that
shit? And that's that's just my
approach in life in general. Yeah, I know.
It's something that's especiallywhen something is so
(14:29):
biographical, they're telling a story.
It's something that unless you really wanted to Fact Check them
on their own CV, it'd be bizarreto be challenging.
Obviously with with my stuff controversial sometimes in that
we try to make sure we're critical of ideas and concepts
and, and what people have put out there rather than the actual
individuals. But we'd always get that right.
But it's just something that I know looking on, people might
(14:52):
think that that's not as compatible as we're describing
it to be. But on a business level, when
we've been increasingly talking about the companies coming
together in partnership, it it seemed obvious to me that we're
talking such a similar language in elevation of MSK best
practice for us. We had a gaping hole in how we
would integrate technologies into that right.
I've been sometimes too strong on saying that there's just so
(15:15):
many gimmicks and gadgets and gizmos, and I know why I have
that instinct. I know what that's been.
I know what that's meant over the years.
I know what machines have been placed on people for no good,
good reason. It has bothered me Now I know
though sometimes that's closed me off to some of the ways in
which we need to wise up and I've been slower on the uptake
there and I need to hold my hands up in certain spaces for
(15:37):
it. You know, shop was not a bad
example really whereby I, it took for I was, I was slower on
the uptake in where it might be appropriate just because of the
fact that it might have been being used in abuse that wasn't
as precise. And So what we, what we're
thinking of doing and working together on is knowing we've
made those mistakes and we need to recognize that if indeed
(15:59):
something like point of care ultrasound in MSK is what is
going to be increasingly what defines best practice
assessment, then. So me, me sat there with me
fingers in me ears saying, yeah,I'll get round to it one day.
It's just not good enough. And when we need therefore to
work with those that know the technology, the hardware, as
well as some of the personnel that are, that are leading the
(16:19):
field in that space. It's just some one of those
things that made me realise now we need some, we need some out
round here. And, and who's doing it well?
And we and we, we found that to be a perfect match really.
Yeah. And just just to add on that bit
as well is that I'm pretty dispassionate about every bit of
equipment we've ever worked with.
I can't say I love ultrasound orshockwave.
I can't like Dom, Dom does. Loves it.
(16:42):
But that's it. But I and even like my
understanding of it is pretty much a basic level for all of
it. But I feel like I do understand
people and I understand the impact it has.
How do we help provide great tools for people in there?
So what, that's what drives me for it.
Dom's more looking at the patient side of things and how
we help that bit minds. How do we help people,
(17:03):
clinicians and businesses improve doing what they're
doing? And it's definitely a
partnership piece rather than it's like, Oh yeah, come and buy
this particular bit of equipmentbecause it does XY and Z.
It's it's a further step back from that.
And and partnerships are so important.
I don't think there's any business on this planet that has
got to any level of success without having a partnership in
some way, shape or form. But it's equipment supply or
(17:25):
service supply, whatever it might be.
There's always another party that has to support with what
you're doing. And I think like you mentioned
then we thought the different equipment, there's so much noise
out there. And I think we kind of bury our
heads in the sand I think a little bit with the commercial
influence of this stuff. Like we use companies that are
selling products with decent margins on them.
As a clinician as well, it's like I do have that element of I
(17:48):
want to make sure that people are clinically getting the right
technology that fits their practice, which the private
practice will help them from a business standpoint as well.
So even understanding that is being really important.
I think there's so much noise out there and there's so many
different products. I mean, we had the privilege
going to Medicare a few years back, first time I went and it's
every man and his dog has got the best version of that
(18:09):
technology. And everybody's got the same
pitch. Everybody's got the same counter
points against the competitor and you just, I think after
about an hour I was like everybody's got the best laser
on the market. It's so.
Difficult. It's interesting.
That's one of the reasons why itreally piqued my interest in
terms of like, yeah, when we were trying to work out we
(18:30):
should do something, but what? Yeah, we have a menu, right.
People buy adverts on our magazine and they might want
some exposure on a particular event we're doing and and good
on them that's not a problem. But that that is a sort of off
shelf item. You guys were interested in
working together, but on something that was a bit more of
(18:51):
an had a bit more novelty to it and and that I really was
interested in that because it was like what would it look
like? Let's be a bit more interesting
on how we solve that. And especially I'm not going to
give too much away, but a littlebit of a teaser is that there
are so many open questions aboutthe threshold of which people
might in their career be smart to start developing something
(19:11):
like point of care ultrasound. And it might well be that that
is not ASAP. It might well be that there is a
baseline and anatomical knowledge that comes from
something prior that we don't yet know that isn't wise for
them to do that and it might confuse them.
Does it make clinicians too tissue centric all of a sudden?
Or is it that actually it's it'ssensible for them to and could
really elevate their abilities? We just don't know those things.
(19:34):
And so we're going to go about trying to answer some of those
in ways that we would have been exposed as educators and
influencers to not really understand what that means for
an ROI for a clinic and what what points of bravery it would
mean for an investment and how that looks.
We didn't know that. And so you guys are obviously
closer to it. And so solving those problems
together and taking our community and share community on
(19:56):
a journey with that is one of the things that really excites
me. Well, I was going to say that
definitely like none of us, I'vebeen doing it 20 years in this
industry. I'm learning stuff all the time.
Like we were just chatting with one of our colleagues who's been
with us for 10 weeks and it's she's teaching us stuff like
within that time period. And it's the same with with what
you've been doing it for a long time.
(20:18):
We'll come together and we'll learn a lot from like, right,
Actually, what could we do? The Gap, Chris Myers, Rob
Louses, Smug. Those guys, they've been doing
it for a long time, but I think they're always learning with
what they're doing. So the more stuff we can do
collaboratively and albeit your approach is slightly different
than your more say confrontational or
controversial, whatever you might say, but great, there's a
different, there's a place for everyone in terms of what
(20:40):
they're doing and it's not for us.
Whether it's ultrasound, shockwave, force plates, there's
loads of brilliant stuff out there and it's all of us really
should. Our goal is to raise the level
of investment in all of it. But for the right people at the
right time and there's, there's loads of scope for maybe not as
many as there are shock waves atMedica because of a lot of
(21:01):
those. But it's these that's there's,
there's the place for everythingevery.
I really believe that everythingwill find its way if it's done
with integrity and done at the right level with it.
And again, if it means sometimesyou're going to piss people off
with certain things, but yeah, Idon't really think there's
anyone out there that's trying to do a shit job or trying to do
something negative, no. Provocation for provocation's
(21:24):
sake is, is just something that of course is short lived.
I think that certainly there were times and phases,
especially when we were early inthe process and podcasting was
novel and, and, and it was seen as being sort of controversial
as a means of a flash in the pan.
We get less of that now because,of course, we're 12 years into
it and we're not going anywhere.And people are realizing now
that no, OK, that was something that there was something in it
(21:45):
and we've got things that we might want to correct the record
on. There's other things that were
like, well, actually we're aheadof things and yeah, felt a bit
uncouth and a bit impolite, but that was partly because of the
culture of excessive politeness that was letting some bad
practice linger. And so we always get it right.
But generally speaking, one of the things that's exciting about
building these relationships is that you, you, you then have to
(22:06):
have an element of appropriate sort of macro diplomacy of
thinking about what is the raising of standards for the
industry rather than it just being according to any one
person. It has to be negotiated.
And we try to do that as much aswe can in public.
And that's one of the things that's exciting about these
next. And actually like raising
practice, it's like I think people are doing a good job with
whatever that they're doing at the moment.
(22:26):
And I think it's trying to get their feedback as well.
Like we, we said before, we don't, we don't know the answers
to everything. We've, we're quite fortunate on
our side to an extent that on the side of industry, we get to
go to place like medic. We get to have these
conversations, not with people in the UK, but around the world,
understanding what new technologies might be coming
around, how different technologies are being utilised.
(22:47):
Let's not go down the AI route, but I think just having that
feedback from your market space or say it's a shared market
space, isn't it? Having that feedback and, and
identifying where those gaps are, identifying where people's
pain points are pain points are whether it's business, clinical,
whatever it might be, educational and we're in a
(23:09):
position to be able to cope. Brilliant.
We've had enough feedback there.Let's let's facilitate that for
those people. I think that's a big part of a
big passion where I've come in over the past few years is and
speak to so many people like, oh, you know, they're in their
room and they're head down the scene patient to patient,
patient. They very rarely come up for
air. But when they do come, friends
like let us know. Let us know how we can support
(23:29):
you and help you and do anything.
We've got to solve these problems and when those problems
are so shared, when it's so similar, it's so such a shame
when people are so isolated and feeling alone in those in those
moments. And that's what community needs
to be. One of your company values is
relationships matter. Of course, this is an important
relationship and partnership that we're going to be going
(23:49):
for, but also the fact that it has the word matter in its suit
of me. So I think it's a relationship
that's bound to. That's why we did it to.
Be honest, the main reason we'vegot to have a shared landing
page that is imminent and because I haven't got the actual
URL at the tip of my tongue yet,it means that I'm going to just
do this and point to wherever heputs the link on this video.
And I look forward to all the exciting news that we're going
(24:12):
to have for our community soon. But yeah, thanks a lot for
coming on the show. And it seems a perfect way for
us to just discuss the least thenext 12 months we've got
together. Yeah, thanks.
I really appreciate. It thanks Jack.
Looking forward to it. Thank you.
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