Why Should MSK Therapists Care About The Environment? Chewing It Over with Jen McNesfield

We hear lots about the climate, crisis, announcements and so on, but why should MSK Therapists care?

Jen McNesfield discusses this with Jack and if you werent convinced before, you will be!

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Jem Mcnestfield, welcome to cheering it over.
Why should physiotherapists careabout the environment?
Because I believe this is the opportunity that is sitting in
our doorsteps that we don't evenrealize yet.
Well, maybe a few of us do a little bit, but I think it's a
really exciting time for physiotherapy as we embrace the

(00:24):
move towards sustainable healthcare.
And that's what I want to shout about, and that's what I'm
excited about. And.
I think spell that opportunity out for me.
I'm interested in like, what what do you see as the being the
the sort of sleeping giant that it could be?
Well, I'm sure I don't need to explain to your listeners the

(00:47):
concern around climate change and what's happening to our
planet at the moment. It's inescapable.
Like Jack, as we're sitting herechatting this evening, we've got
extreme flood warnings around the UK.
Think in Oxfordshire a month's worth of rain has fallen since
midnight. Now that's, that's crazy.
We've got this going on everywhere, all around the

(01:09):
world, including right in our doorsteps.
And that's a health crisis. It's it's related to our health
day in, day out. And when we think about how
that's going to affect our patients, what's what's going to
happen to their health, what's going to happen to our
healthcare system, then we maybestart to think about our role

(01:33):
within that as well. And as physiotherapists, we are
naturally very low impact on theenvironment.
We use touch, we use communication, we use movement
in our assessment, in our treatment.
And that's there in where I believe the opportunity lies for

(01:56):
us because every sector, whetherthat be aviation, whether that
be energy production, whether that be agriculture and also
Healthcare, is looking to move towards more sustainable models
of the way they do their business.
It's enshrined in law within theHealthcare Act of 2022 for the
NHS to become sustainable and net 0 by 2040.

(02:21):
That is a big massive open door for us as physiotherapist, being
this low impact profession to really contribute to this work
that is already happening. And I think that is where the
excitement really comes, becausewhat an opportunity for us to
contribute towards this work that needs to be done.

(02:41):
Gotcha. And what's the what's your
personal story that then sort ofwhat's the order, I guess is
that these interests something that precedes you being a physio
and then you join the dots and realized or is it something that
actually then really inspired and motivated to be a physio?
Like, what's your background andhow did you become especially
interested in these issues? I'm relatively new to the
profession so I qualified two years ago and I'm currently

(03:05):
working as a rotational physio locally.
I live in Salisbury and I came to the profession already
concerned about climate change but also interested in the
environment. I love the outdoors, you know,
whether that's mountaineering ina river, on the sea.
I just love being out and about and I love nature.

(03:27):
Very big interest in birds and you know what, I'm going to own
that as a 30 something birder. So I've come to the profession
with his interest, but also withhis concern.
And it was in my degree program where the program lead mentioned
an organization called invite, the Environmental Physiotherapy
Association. I thought, what, what is this?

(03:50):
It piqued my interest and I thought, goodness, what is this?
And how, how could physiotherapybe related to the environment
like that? I don't, I don't understand that
link. And sort of over the, the two
years of my course of investigating this area, reading
some interesting papers by the founder, so Philip Marich, who's

(04:12):
kind of the, the global leader, if you like, in pushing this new
environmental physiotherapy agenda.
And I started to draw those connections and, and make those
links. And actually I think the
question almost turns itself more into how is the environment
not related to physiotherapy? Fundamentally, we're working

(04:36):
with our service users, patients, clients to have the
function to interact with their environment, whether that be
being able to stand up and sit down from a chair, whether that
be able to garden or be able to continue with their work, be
able to interact with their family, to do their hobbies.
You know, at that level, we're getting the people we work with

(04:59):
to interact more with their environment.
But even right down to, you know, the pure physiological,
anatomical, chemical levels, youknow, we take 12 to 16 breaths a
minute comprising of oxygen, nitrogen and well, unfortunately
some pollutants now. But in carbon dioxide, you know
that that cellular level we are ingesting the environment on

(05:22):
every breath and what that is comprised of and the health of
that environment effects our health all of the time.
So I think you know, just acrossall of the levels trying to
separate what we do as a profession from the environment
actually is is quite tricky to to see how it, it's not, it's

(05:42):
not related. And do you feel that that has
been has been separated or it's just not been brought to
consciousness as overtly as you feel it should have been?
Because what you're describing, of course, is, is a fact of the
matter, but it's also something that I think there's no one
going to be listening and thinking.
They might not have thought. I've not thought about it quite

(06:04):
as deeply as that. But they would not be, you know,
underestimating the air we breathe or underestimating the
especially our listeners. We've been going on about
contest sensitivity and and and functional rehabilitation that
engages people with nature, their own environment, their own
needs in such a way that then kind of is almost, it's almost

(06:26):
so obvious that maybe does it need saying or am I missing
something where you feel it's there is something by making it
more overt and and specific thatis, is is necessary because it's
been missed. Yeah, phrasing it as being

(06:46):
missed, I don't know. It's maybe more it's that lack
of or the is bringing our consciousness to that
inextricable link, I think. And then from there, the next
step is thinking, well, what what is happening in our
environment? What's happening to our planet
and why, why does that matter? You know, we are so linked and

(07:10):
when we start to just think about it that yes, maybe obvious
level, but just actually bringing consciousness to
something we've maybe taken for granted a little bit.
And then thinking about, OK, well, when that environment
starts to change and not look like it has done 30 years ago,
50 years ago, 100 years ago, what's that now doing to our

(07:33):
health and what, what do we needto do about it?
And I think maybe that's where the level of of consciousness
kind of has come around more forme anyway.
Gotcha. And the the just as a matter of
framing that might be useful andand also something that I
genuinely don't know about. I think it's maybe worth me

(07:54):
before I do that, explaining howyou came to my attention at the
new reps conference of last year, originally for some
thoughtful comments on these issues and others.
And I kicked myself now, as I mentioned off just in
preparation for this, where I then had flagged it as being

(08:16):
something I meant to pick up with you and, and some
interesting chats with we'd had outside the hall that I just
then dink around to. And unfortunately that's, that's
a common thing for me just beinguseless.
But then this year I didn't makethat mistake and actually then
was able to reach out and we were able to to organize this.
But your sort of thoughtfulness on this and, and your ambition

(08:39):
for for us to prioritize this issomething that is, is
fascinating. But what I, I sense is both an
urgency as well as a, a, a senseof the status quo being
something intolerable. And that applies to the current

(09:00):
situation full stop, with regards to the climate emergency
as well as our role within it. So can we just go there?
If you would just get as a frameof reference like what, what are
your, what is your sort of general take and how would that
be related to other sort of activist communities in this
space in this country and beyond?

(09:22):
And then where's physiotherapy within that and, and how
ignorant are we compared to other industries, I think.
It's when you look across other healthcare professions and what
they, how they've responded to this emergency, the climate and
nature emergencies, and they're,they're what, how we've

(09:43):
responded. So if I kind of take you back
almost to my like journey into having this interest, I cared
about the environment and I found an International
Association that was doing something about it and that was
that was amazing. It's like, wow, you know, it's
not just me that that thinks this is important.
You know, there's research goingon.

(10:04):
There's encouragement to get this sort of information brought
into undergraduate training. And then I thought, well, what
what's happening in the UK and what are my professional body
doing, you know, brand new to the profession.
What is the Charter Society of Physiotherapy doing about this?
And I was like, well, guess I'd check the website.

(10:26):
So had a little search on the website.
And so this was in this must have been 2021 and genuinely
like nothing came up on the website.
There was nothing in any way related to the environment, to
sustainability, to climate change, to like the health, like
all the health relations to all of this topic.

(10:46):
But if you do a Gen., if I well,at the time doing a general
Google of it, you know, there was loads of other links,
whether that be what doctors aredoing what, you know, the big
publications and international publications such as the IPCC.
So that's like the big report that's done annually on climate

(11:08):
change and the effects on the planet and, you know,
suggestions for mitigations. And our profession just wasn't
saying anything about it. And I kind of thought, oh, all
right, like, why are we missing a trick?
What what's happening here? And that's sort of where ideas
start to warm in my head about, well, how can, how can we start

(11:32):
talking about this as a profession?
And and why aren't we? And did you over, over the time
between then and now, have you come to either a conclusion or
your general take as to why? You know what?
Why do you think it is? You know, that's a great
question. I I don't I still don't think I
can answer why I don't know, butI don't know why other.

(11:55):
What's your hunch to it? What your what?
Your what? Your Spidey sense is saying you
know you yeah, that's what I like totally understand that you
don't know because I don't know.I don't know if anyone listening
would know for sure, but I'm just meaning like that's a while
back and and so you then it's a really understandable thing.
Just I wonder why not And then, you know, if you've then if you

(12:16):
then had to, someone puts a gun to your head now and and says
why not? You know, what's your best
answer to the why? Why is this this way?
What's your take? I, I, I genuinely do not, do not
think I can answer the question because my initial reaction to,
to not finding any information from our professional body at

(12:38):
the time on the topic was, was the same.
I thought, what jeez, oh, why this?
Surely this just makes sense. And you know, I've had like
colleagues at work say the same thing to me.
I won't, I will not forget when a registrar on a respiratory
ward I was working on, I think I've been sharing, I don't know,

(13:01):
some information about what the trust was doing with
sustainability. And he, he came out to me and he
said, oh, it's great. It's great you're doing some
stuff with sustainability. Oh, surely, you know, that's,
that's just bread and butter foryou physios because, you know,
your role is so related to the environment and, you know,
getting people moving and keeping people healthy and

(13:21):
stopping from needing to take medications and avoiding them
having to have surgery. You know, that's just so
obvious. And I looked at him and I
thought, yeah, do you know, you would think that, wouldn't you?
But, well, we, we just, we're just a bit late to the party.
Maybe we've had a lot going on. I don't know.
I'm new to the profession, so maybe I can use that as my get
out. I wasn't here more than four

(13:42):
years ago, so I don't know what years were doing.
Yeah, well, look, it's, it's a, it's you're polite to call it a
good question because I think it's just, it's almost a bit of
a boring one, but it's also one that, you know, you I just was
kind of keen to wonder if you, if you'd scratched at that and,
and, and come to any conclusion because, you know, I, I get a

(14:04):
sense that it's something that then just doesn't meet a
threshold for it to be prioritized.
But one of the things that I find interesting is just this
the shape and structure of when we talk about these things is
that we kind of all our eggs arein one basket to some degree
compared to many other professions in that when we're
talking about this, you're on about the CSP, right?

(14:24):
The Chartered Society of Physiotherapy is a voluntary
membership organization of whichwe didn't all sit any exams
beyond our bachelors to actuallythen become members of.
And so it's unlike with the professions we most of us are in
became are charted through that mechanism.
And therefore we're talking about an organization that has a

(14:46):
system of, of comms and messaging and what it decides to
say or not say that is highly centralized.
And so if someone else was to come at it and did some Googling
and found the organizations thatyou're talking about that are
talking well on the issue, then it could be that, oh, this, this

(15:09):
was a very active community. But because it'd be then there's
almost this central place in which we'd go looking for it.
I think it, I find it interesting that the, the,
there's a deeper answer to the question that is kind of how,
how do people that have got a shared interest then use the
wider platform and the organization of the of the CSP

(15:31):
to elevate that into members consciousness.
And, and that is something I'm well aware of how limiting that
is. And so we then end up on just
what is the sort of common strategy of the Charter Society
of Physiotherapy and how can a membership voice find its way to
actually then enact change within that organization?

(15:51):
I mean, I'm fairly well qualified to tell you a lot
about that. It's not for, you know,
necessarily of interest to this,this podcast.
We, we'd, we'd spoil it by goinginto the weeds on the boring
governance side of that. But it's, I find it interesting
that that's something that you've observed and you're, and
you're not alone on, on this or many other issues of which
people would would like for there to be more said and done

(16:14):
on it. Now this is where bit where I
wonder if maybe we are just keenon understanding your, your
instincts is that when you and others have then said this is
what the CSP should do. Well, this is what physiotherapy
should do. So it's again sometimes seen as
synonymous. It's what what did you and your
colleagues feel were the key priorities in the in the in the

(16:38):
early wins that you were you were keen on the CSP doing and
we can kind of go from there. I.
Think the larger comes down to to leadership.
That's where, you know, our professional body can use its
position as a, you know, leadership organization within
the healthcare field in our country to speak out for the

(17:01):
benefit of service users and also members.
Because we know members are really concerned about this and
want to see more support in bothtraining and in kind of
management structures, whether that be through the creation of
a of a network to give, you know, create a space for members

(17:25):
who are interested and want to kind of further, they're
learning in these areas to then support change like at workplace
levels. So I think, you know, leadership
down almost looking downwards is, is what that looks like, you
know, to members and potential members as well and to patients

(17:48):
and service users, you know, to show that it's, it's being
prioritized and it is important.And I think kind of a more, you
know, out left and right of the CSP.
So that's other professional bodies, that's other unions,
maybe the leadership in the CSPS, maybe not what's needed

(18:09):
because actually we are falling behind in that area.
If we look at what, you know, the Royal College of
Occupational Therapists are doing, the British Dietetics
Association, you know, even justa quick Google, you'll find on
their websites guidance to members of how to incorporate
sustainable practice into what they're doing.
There's guidance for service users about sustainable diets.

(18:33):
You know, there's loads out there.
So actually it's about us, I think catching up with our peers
at that level. And then I think kind of the up
and outwards leadership, whetherthat's when we're interacting
with government, we, you know, the CSP has a voice that is
listened to, whether that's with, you know, within politics
and the leadership within our country, interacting with our

(18:55):
regulator, world physiotherapistorganization.
You know, we are a trusted and respected international
organization. And I think being able to call
out actions that are bad for theplanet, therefore bad for health
and bad for the ecosystem that we need to live in, that's

(19:15):
really important. And being able to see that being
done as other professional bodies and unions are doing, and
just seeing our professional body catch up with that and join
in, I think it's really, really important to members who haven't
been seeing that so far. Do you have a sense of when when

(19:37):
that all gets going? How much would you balance the
talk with action, right. So in this instance, and I
remember when we first met, I had this real strong sense and,
and you and others were teachingme in the room about the obvious

(19:57):
links, you know, with regards tothe obvious stuff with the
active transport and things likethat.
But also just the way in which if physiotherapy was to improve
asthma and therefore decrease inhaler use, or at least to try
and make sure that they had a knowledge of inhalers to
understand what would be then safer or safer and better for
the environment. And there's all sorts of things
there which were like really specific.
Actionable things and, and you were from what I recall offering

(20:21):
some polls from people that were, you know, just saying,
well, electric pool cars might be the answer and stuff like
that, where you were saying, let's not be taking, you know,
let's not be over indulging to, to simplistic solutions here and
recognizing some of the challenges there.
And it was a really interesting ethical discussion, right.
So about about actions and then you and other colleagues when

(20:42):
outside of the room in this instance, but also something
that I recognized I've been lobbied by with my role on
council was that then the priority was physiotherapy needs
to declare a climate emergency. And that was something that the
charter society therapy physiotherapy did not long
afterwards from what I recall oror maybe it had at that point.
But what I'm getting at is I thefirst the first bit you can't

(21:06):
find me anymore on board with right.
I remember some of the similar things.
I was part of a healthcare arm of the green Circle, which was
part of the Green Party of Britain in ten years ago.
And we were talking about some of this stuff, not as specific
as this. That's what was really
interesting, right. So I was learning a lot and
those actions. I'm just, you know, I think it's
really interesting. I think it's crazy that we're

(21:27):
not more on board with and showing ourselves to be leaders
in in that space. But I to some extent will
contrast that to what I'd say isone of the most sort of cringe
worthy things I've ever seen is the charter society comes out
and declares a climate emergency.
Like I I just find that to be a mad virtue signal that just
feels really cringe worthy. Like what, who who cares?
I've Exxon Mobil been in touch. Did did that massively change

(21:50):
the game? Is that is a really important
declaration? It just feels it feels so
performative. It feels so awkward, especially
when we're not really then delivering on any action or
doing anything specific. So I find that that's maybe just
like a personal taste thing, butI just find that that almost
spoils a really interesting fledgling movement is to kind of

(22:11):
what's felt felt like prioritising talk over action or
or using that as the the necessary start point when it
just felt it just felt it felt alittle bit shallow.
I think it's, it's that it's part of the wider movement to
declare the current health of the planet as a problem.

(22:35):
So, you know, the Scottish Government declared a climate
emergency. The, you know, we've got loads
of other NHS trusts, other royalcolleges, you know, the Royal
College of GPS, Royal College ofEmergency Medicine, some of the
big, big trusts are in the country, Manchester, Newcastle,
they've all declared climate emergencies.

(22:55):
So it was a movement that kind of started about four or five
years ago to put get this on theagenda as something that needs a
lot of urgency to be looked at now because things hadn't been
looked at up to this date. So it was part maybe in
isolation. I can see why if maybe the the

(23:19):
kind of healthcare movement for considering the planet hadn't
been on your radar, then just suddenly seeing a declaration
and without action is, you know,to use your words, cringe
worthy. I think that's entirely
understand. It's on my radar, I guess.
I guess that's the thing. I'm meaning it's like, it's more
just is that is that a necessarycog like in in that machine?

(23:43):
Like is it like as if, as if that was then a a crucial
starting point, as if without that declaration, then we are
with that, that somehow the profession and its constituent
members would not be cognizant of one of the most sort of
famous issues of our time. Do you know what I mean?
It just, it seems, it seems bizarre that that was the

(24:08):
collective physiotherapy pullingthe wool from its eyes, because
we all kind of know that that's not true.
But it was just that as activismgoes, is that could it?
I guess like I'm just wondering,like to me, I think that
sometimes risks compromising a really important and and
incredible movement that that could could ground itself in the
specificity of the points that are being raised that are really

(24:30):
unique to physiotherapy. And then wider healthcare almost
then becomes like a just a sort of clapping shop for what
everyone else is saying and it just becomes like a sort of
political sloganeer into my taste.
Yeah, but you know, it's actually been so useful.
So that was in April 2022, and Ithink you've referenced a few

(24:54):
times my colleagues. So I'm part of a group called
Physiotherapy declares, hence the declaration of the climate
emergency, which is what we wereasking for from the beginning.
Towards the end of 2021 we formed and it has been more
useful than we could have imagined to have.
The act of declaring, right, that's you.

(25:15):
This is great because this is what I need to write better
understand. So the act of the act of the the
the fact that physiotherapy did declare has then been really
useful. So spell out how, because that's
really interesting. Because it's a stick of the CS
PS own creation that we've been able to use to beat them with to

(25:37):
for one of a better comparison or metaphor.
But it that is exactly what it is because it it was the CSP
recognizing that this effects health effects the health of our
patients and it matters to our members.
And we're saying it's a problem.Just as you know, the Scottish
Government has loads of other healthcare organizations have
across the world. You know, we're in agreement

(26:00):
with this. This is, is a problem.
We want to do something about it.
And since April 2022, as as a group that exists to lobby our
own professional body, we've been able to say, OK, great, you
agree that this is a problem. That's our start point.
So what are you going to do about it now?
We would now there needs to be some action because you can't
say something's an emergency without them doing some action.
So more than I think we could have ever have imagined, it has

(26:24):
been very, very useful as a, youknow, start point to any
discussion. You know this is a problem to
what we're doing about it. You know that that's because I
can, I can follow that logic, but it also there's no
counterfactual, is there? You've no idea how effective it
could have been without them having we having declared a plan
emergency, right? So I don't know might be the

(26:44):
case that they have, but the CSPhasn't made a formal declaration
of the housing crisis. However, I can imagine many
things that we do in and many actions that we could be lobbied
on to recognize the complex massive issues into social care
that the housing crisis has on all sorts of issues associated
to physiotherapy, to health, to rehab, etcetera.

(27:05):
And I just can't imagine that the fundamental necessary step,
the first jigsaw on the board, jigsaw piece on the board would
need to be the overt declarationof a housing crisis in order for
us to make the other pieces cometogether.
And so it feels like there's a risk that because that happened,
we've then made a correlation causation.

(27:27):
We might be making a correlationcausation thing.
Well, it's just because it's been useful to lobbying efforts,
whereas it might have been, might have been that you'd have
been making you good arguments and, and we could have just
avoided the cringe thing. And it might have just been me
that's cringing. Like, I don't know why I'm it
particularly bothered me. I only slightly, by the way,
it's not something I've obsessedover since you'd have been on
the show sooner if it was some of them particularly bothered

(27:47):
me. But I just remember, I remember
feeling that way. And it's not the only thing that
I feel that we're on. It's just more of a like someone
that just, God, I just hate people, people and organizations
that are all talk and no action.And so that kind of just felt
like that was the risks associated to that felt far
greater than the declaring. But then equally, you know, I am

(28:07):
sympathetic to the fact that youfeel you're very thoughtful on
these issues and and close to the specifics.
And I'm like, you clearly feel like it was a really useful and
and necessary step. But can you see what I mean
about the fact that we don't, wedon't know whether it was
necessary because, you know, it's like, what?
What I suppose what else could be?

(28:28):
That's what's happened, isn't it?
Yeah. And I think comparing the like,
the housing crisis to the climate crisis is maybe, you
know, the CSB can't declare every single issue that's
happened as an issue because they just spend their entire
life declaring everything being an issue.
But I think it's the recognitionand that's what the movement of

(28:50):
the kind of climate emergency declaration movement came from,
recognising that this is unlike anything the planet and humanity
and the beings we share the planet with have ever faced.
So The Lancet in 2020 during thepandemic stated climate change
is the greatest threat to globalhealth of the 21st century.

(29:12):
It is the issue of our time. And that's why kind of these
emergency statements were seen as a necessary response across
all, you know, sectors, walks oflife because it's not just
unique to health. Do we really understand how

(29:33):
these things are nested within wider movements?
Because I think wonder when I reflect on my own, why am I
cringing? Why does it matter?
You know, these, these are, are we splitting hairs at the
margins when actually the, the, that's so it's all progress.
And I'm just wondering, do you have any sense of where that
would then ideally lead to? So if the, if the bandwagon was

(29:57):
properly bordered by physiotherapy and by the CSP,
like what, what does that then lead to?
Is that would you like for the CSP to have an active role and
as an organization be lobbying for the end of fossil fuels, for
it to for it to be promoting veganism?

(30:18):
And I'm just just interested in what your sort of take is on how
that, how your own views relate to that, as well as then what
you feel as an organization we should be doing to be leaders in
that in in an ideal world, if you could click your fingers and
these things would happen. I think a really nice start
would be like working with our professional colleagues.

(30:42):
So there's an organization called the UK, the UK Health
Alliance on Climate Change, of which the CSP is not a member,
but most of the royal colleges, if not all by now are members.
The Royal College of Occupational Therapists are
members. I could go on and just basically

(31:03):
list every single allied health professional, which would be
very boring. So, you know, just as a start, I
was getting involved in the workthat's already been done and
adding our voice to it. And, you know, whether the
physios finally being on board with it makes a giant
difference, I don't know. But what it does make a
difference to is the members whoare not seeing themselves

(31:26):
represented and, you know, not feeling seen by the professional
body because. I'll definitely come.
I'll definitely come back to thestart, Jen, because I think that
that's definitely like tangible,pragmatic solutions.
If we can, let's go, go blue sky.
Like give me the end. Like give me, give me the dream,
pitch me the vision and then we can work sort of pragmatically
from there as to how we might get there.

(31:47):
But I'm just like, just out of interest.
So, you know, I'm making, I'm making you queen of
physiotherapy, at least for the day, if not queen of the world.
But just like what, what, what does that look like?
What would we be advocating for?On a global scale, I think it's
about us being part of the movement that is going on rather

(32:08):
than being almost oblivious to the things that are happening
around us. I would say another lovely start
would be having a plan just sometype of we've got, we've got a
declaration that this is a real big problem and we don't have

(32:29):
much else. So, you know, as joining what
they say, for example, the Nursing and Midwifery Council
have got, which is an environmental sustainability
plan which sets out why it's important, why it matters to
them, why they believe there's areally important role for nurses
and midwives within the healthcare's response to the

(32:50):
climate emergency and what what they're going to do about it.
I know we're not asking for sortof giant things here, we're just
asking for the CSB to join in with what other stuff's been
been. Done sensible angles.
Don't get me wrong, I just want I just like I suppose I'd we
don't have to be hyper practicalin this.

(33:11):
You know what me and you are sort of riffing on this topic.
I'm just like, give me the I want.
I want something more ambitious.I feel like I don't know you
well, but I I know, I know that you I'm allowing you to dare to
dream, Jen. So what?
What's that look like? So, so especially because it
take me. I'd have to persuade my fellow
counselors, right? But let's just imagine, imagine

(33:31):
I did And and that tomorrow the CSP does.
Let's just take those two examples like the CSP comes in,
comes out hard about accelerating decarbonisation and
advocating for veganism. And I mean, I can keep naming
them, but let's just try and take those two.
Let's just, you know, not big, not OK, who carried away all of
a sudden. But I'm just meaning that that

(33:51):
if we did that, what does, what does, what does Jen say?
And what do the organisations you, you work within say to
that? Is that that that just, that's a
good news day, is it? Any steps towards having a lower
impact on the planet or good like, you know, whether that's
following the pathway to the reduction of use of fossil fuels

(34:14):
like we know we need to do, that's obviously great.
And if the CSP could speak out on that, just like the majority
of other healthcare leadership organizations in the UK have,
then that would be great. I think, you know, talking
about, oh, if CSP was telling everyone to be a vegan, I mean,

(34:35):
it just seems a bit token, seemsa bit tokenistic and that, you
know, that's not what the British Dietetics Association
are doing. But what they are doing is
giving guidance to their membersas to how they can adopt
sustainable dietary advice into their clinical practice on a
day-to-day and how they can haveconversations about

(34:56):
sustainability with their patients and with their
colleagues. You know much along the make
every contact count model. So, you know, it's it's this
these kind of things, this beingprioritised as being important,
this there being a plan as to how we want to respond as to how
as a profession, we're going to grab this opportunity that's

(35:17):
sitting here ripe for us to pick, for us to carve out our,
you know, our niche, our area, our specialty.
It could be is and joining in with the transition of
healthcare moving from being, you know, across the world, 4%
of all carbon footprint comes inthe healthcare sector, which

(35:38):
depending on the studies you read is more than global
aviation. That is crazy.
That's bad for the health of thepeople that the healthcare
systems are are trying to look after.
So, you know, I was just being part of recognizing that and
having a plan as to how we're going to support the profession

(35:59):
to respond to this issue of our time issue of our lifetime.
That that's that's what we want it to be taken seriously there
to be tangible action and us allto be understand our role in it
and and supporters in it. And you know who else to look to
other than our professional bodyand our trade union?

(36:19):
What's What's the best? What would you want to signpost
people to? How can they find out a bit more
about you and the organizations you work with in?
So our Twitter page tends to be the most active if you want to
get updates or see what we're upto at the moment.
And if you want to come and joinus, just drop us an e-mail

(36:39):
[e-mail] Drop usan e-mail.
We very casual work by WhatsApp so got a lovely network and
community of people sharing ideas and being supported to
create change locally. And yeah, we'd love to have you
on board if if you're interested.
Yeah, well, well done. We'll be providing links on that

(37:00):
and and everything else that that Jen and team are doing.
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for your time
today. I really appreciate it and we
can speak again and and I hope that my especially my mopey
cynicism that's ended the conversation ends up being
completely hopefully reversed bypositive change that make just
proves me wrong. I'd love nothing more than that.
But as a general rule, the, the sort of suggestions and and

(37:23):
examples that you give in and and the resources that hopefully
can be produced to champion thatis, is just like you said,
exciting is the right word and it is a it is a really
interesting angle that that we should be celebrating more.
So thank you so much for all you're doing and yeah, look
forward to to getting this out there.
Thank you for your time, Jack, It's been a pleasure.
Cheers, Jen. Bye bye.
Bye.