October 25, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, Adam engages with his old buddy and crew-dog Mark McCowan, who shares his interesting journey from boom operator to flight school instructor. Mark discusses leveraging the post-9/11 GI Bill for flight training and explores various aviation opportunities beyond the military. They delve into the challenges and emerging trends in training new pilots, emphasizing the significant costs involved and their implications for aspiring aviators. Hit Mark up at https://www.aerotechservices.com if you are near PA!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:20):
Yo, TPN.
How are you?
This episode was reported a while back.
I found it in our old stuff when after we gotthrough t p n x, and then we kinda took our
little summer break.
And I wanted to get it out there because it'swith a really good friend of mine, Mark McCown,
former air force boom operator, instructorpilot, now in in Pennsylvania, running a flight
(00:45):
school and all the good stuff that he came fromfrom being an enlisted guy in the air force to
now doing his own flight school stuff.
And, just a go getter, a good friend of mine,dude who served admirably in the k c 135.
I, Mark, this is an apology to you.
Sorry this took so long to get out.
(01:07):
I almost forgot about it.
I did forget about it.
Anyways, I really enjoyed talking to Mark, andI wanted to share this episode now because
after I listened to it again, I said, hey.
You know, this is really applicable to a lot ofpeople who are kinda getting the aviation bug,
number 1.
But number 2, a lot of different things havehappened since we recorded this back in, I
(01:30):
don't know, like, February or something likethat when the weather stunk here in the
Midwest.
Mark was essentially talking about how he wastaking these students and and working with them
and, you know, watching them go from nothing topropilot and then moving on up the ranks.
And with the stall out of hiring and otherstuff that's happened, I think that people
(01:55):
kinda need to get back to that, you know, likethe fundamentals or the foundational stuff or
just be remotivated back to those days whenthey first started.
And the fact is is we're still gonna needpilots for a long time to come.
So, get out there.
If you're interested, if this is something thatyou wanna do, now is a great time to do that.
Hopefully, financing rates come down and allthat stuff, and flying will become, not,
(02:20):
cheaper, but just more affordable, than it hasbeen, recently.
Anyways, you could listen to me ramble or wecan listen to Mark and I have a great
conversation.
Hope you enjoy it.
Network, I am joined today by a dear friend.
(02:41):
Mark, how the hell are you?
It's been a long time.
Hello, sir.
It's it has been a while.
I haven't seen you
Yeah.
Seen like this?
It's yeah.
Like what we've seen.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe there's been a seen?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Physically, I don't 20 years?
20 years.
Maybe slightly less if you and Jen came back.
I'm sure I'm sure the I'm sure the listenersout there are extremely interested in the last
(03:04):
time that we saw each other.
Anyways, Mark and I used to work together manyyears ago in a little squadron, the flying
triangles, the 349th at McConnell Air ForceBase.
And that seems like a lifetime ago, which itkinda was for, your kids, who are older, my
kids who are, younger.
And it was funny because, Mark always wasinterested in aviation and and better at it
(03:30):
than I was.
And
I concur.
Yeah.
And he actually went out.
And after he did the boom operating thing, hekinda, got into aviation a little bit deeper.
But before we go there, Mark, why don't youtell the wonderful network folks out there how
you first even got interested in being a boomoperator and then how that took hold into your
(03:52):
aviation career post air force?
Yeah.
I always had a passion for flying.
And when I first joined the air force in 1997,I basically had a desk job.
Didn't like it, so I cross trained into toaerial refueling.
(04:13):
The mid mid aerial Mid aerial refuelingspecialist.
Yes.
Yes.
AKA boom operator.
I had had an experience when I was in Japanwith my buddy that he was a boom operator, so
he ended up going up and taking afamiliarization of flight, and then we ended
up, in the boom pod, and I liked what I saw.
(04:36):
And so I decided to cross train because itlooked cool.
I had to wear a flight sheet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think a lot of us but that's right.
That's kind of a lot of us get that, that thatdesire from the, the green flight suit.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
And how so
how long were you you were
in the air force for, what, 8 years?
(04:57):
Was it 8 or is it little less?
Yeah.
It was 8 years and ended up, getting outbecause I was kinda nonvolued to a flight
engineer at c 5.
Not interesting.
And I didn't wanna do that.
So going back to what we were talking about acouple days ago about how the air force wants
to retire his back.
(05:17):
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So maybe maybe maybe you should go back and, bea boom.
Hey.
I'm I'm I'm yeah.
Maybe or maybe not.
But I remember the I remember that pretty well.
There's a lot of booms you didn't wanna leave.
So for those of you who, are looking at careersin aviation outside of being a pilot or just
starting out, the argument that's out there,and I think it's a very solid one, is the best
(05:43):
enlisted job in the air force is, boomoperator.
And Yes.
I I would I would venture to say I've met veryfew booms who are unhappy at that position when
they're doing it.
And in the garden reserve, boom operators stayforever.
They never leave.
I mean, booms don't retire.
So It's
a sweet gig.
(06:03):
It's it is.
It's a great gig, and it's fun.
It's I I have I have a lot of respect,obviously.
I worked with them, and, some of my bestfriends are still boom operators.
I mean, Mark and I, that's 20 years ago.
20 years ago.
20 years ago, we were in Germany on our on ourTDY together with, Frank Shoresman.
Shout out to Frank.
And Yes.
(06:24):
Those days, are are are very implanted in ourmemories.
But that's how Mark got interested in aviation,did some work with the military, with me and
back in the active duty days, but he kinda wenton a whole different route.
And it was it's more circuitous than most.
So what happened after you left the military?
(06:46):
So I got out in 2,005, came back home tobeautiful South Central Pennsylvania with my
wife, Jenny, and my kid, Tristan, and startedthe family business, which was construction
with my brother and my father at the time.
So after that, about 3 years, I went ahead andgot the itch to start flight again.
(07:07):
I I I remember that.
Went ahead to Yeah.
Local airport where I now was working andstarted with my sport pilot license and just
got into that back in 2008.
And then 12 years later, I ended up getting myCFI.
So wow.
That's over the course of 12 years.
Yeah.
That's Sport pilot all the way up.
(07:28):
Not not not not not expeditiously rippingthrough the licensure process at that point.
But No.
Not the fast track.
But it The the running a
company with 5 kids and a wife
Yeah.
The the reality track is you might wanna callit.
Yeah.
The reality track.
I think, that is so there's what we're tryingto do is as we lead up to TPNX in, in April for
(07:57):
the folks out there.
I I want people to realize who who don'tbecause both Mark and I, military guys.
Right?
We had no idea really what was outside ofaviation besides what we were doing in the
military.
Maybe we you know, like me, I saw, oh, there'sairlines, and then there's, military pilots.
I didn't even know, like, that the coast guard,it really had an aviation arm.
(08:19):
You know what I mean?
I saw him fly, but I didn't really understandit.
Stuff like that.
So what I want people to understand out thereand what I'm hoping we're trying to kinda get
the point across is that there's all theseother kind of options and opportunities.
So you go and you get your CFI.
It takes time because you're busy working withI mean, you've got kids, you got a real job,
(08:42):
and you can try to blame Jenny, but I knowJenny and that there is no blame there.
Yeah.
That's yeah.
No.
No.
No.
So She should have been extremely supportive atall.
Yeah.
And she I I remember that from the verybeginning.
So how does one go from, like, I got my sportpilot license, and I'm take I have to take kind
of a slow road to get up to the CFI to go on.
I'm gonna start my own I'm gonna I'm gonnakinda I mean, you already had an
(09:05):
entrepreneurial spirit, but how then you go andyou're like, I'm gonna get into this, like,
legit
Flying thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, Yeah.
Well, first off, I use the post 911 GI Bill.
Okay.
Smart.
And for me, it paid about $70,000 over thecourse, like that 12 years.
Okay.
Wow.
And so that is how I was able to
(09:26):
do a lot of that.
Okay.
And then, and then where are you now?
At your AviationNow?
Oh, as my so I'm pretty much an MEI Okay.
Over at AeroTech Services, and I do that parttime, but being part time is 4 or 5 days a
week.
Oh my gosh.
(09:47):
So you so you're out there just teaching kidshow to fly airplanes?
Well, kids.
Yeah.
Just specifically yeah.
The CMEI.
It's the only thing I do.
Okay.
I do have my CFI, but I don't really use it fortoo much because I don't have the time to start
from Yeah.
A student who knows absolutely nothing aboutwhat an aileron is.
(10:07):
Yeah.
All the way up to, you know, solo.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
And then have you ever thought about taking itthe next step and, like, going and doing
getting your
Oh, yeah.
I've I've got my feet wet, as far as, 135.
Okay.
Operations and then but not 121.
No.
No.
(10:28):
Not not interesting.
It is interesting, but the we got out, like,when we did, it was, like, 270 years deployed,
and I just don't wanna go back to that.
And and Jenny at the same time Yeah.
She's the same way.
She's, please, too much going on.
So, yeah, it's funny you say that.
(10:48):
I I have a friend.
In fact, I'm trying to get him on the podcastas well, who's one of the dads at our school.
So I met a pilot in the wild, which
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
Which is rare.
Like, I I didn't realize I was like, no.
I've met guys before, and then I'm like, no.
I haven't.
I've randomly met 2 guys on the golf course,and then I met, but never in my community ever.
(11:09):
And then this this this guy, Scott, he's apilot, corporate pilot, flies Foo for a family,
and now he flies for a company.
Well, anyways, but long story short, he was notinterested in going 121 at all, and he does
super long trips, like, longer trips than Iever do.
However, he has some more time.
(11:29):
Well, 95 ops?
91, 130.
I think 91.
Yeah.
11.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But he it's like, he had a 12 day they startedas an 8 day and turned into, like, 12 days
gone.
And I'm going, woof.
Shannon would not not dig for that.
But that that's how their family operates, andthey're okay with that.
You know what I mean?
So I but I totally understand.
I mean, all that deploy time, it takes it'skind of a cumulative toll.
(11:53):
And to go back and then it's also starting fromthe 121 starting from scratch, if you got into
121 at this point.
So what do you like, are what's the plan goingforward as far as I mean, is this it?
Like, just gonna instruct being commercialmulti engine, or do you think maybe, hey.
I'm gonna start my own jam and go do like, Idon't know.
(12:14):
Get out on you're already in you're alreadyyou've already run a business.
Yeah.
I never wanna say never.
Yeah.
And the good thing is, like, when I have, allthe MEI experience, it's all PIC multi engine
time Yeah.
Which is really nice.
So Well Right now, I plan on this staying righthere, but who who knows?
(12:35):
I know they are in desperate need of all sortsof pilots.
Yeah.
To say to say the least.
To say the least, it's it's the 121 world'schanging a little bit, but across the rest of
the board, it's it's you it's uniquelyfascinating.
I've never really seen anything like this.
Now mind you, I've only been around for, youknow, 12 years in this in the civil side, but
(12:59):
20 years in the military.
Still haven't seen really anything like it.
The the the next question I had about AeroText,services.
Alright.
So do you guys, now are you full service as faras, like, if there's a guy who is military
dude, military gal in Jersey, they need to gettheir ATP done.
Do you guys have connections to get ATP in
(13:20):
the military?
Service company.
So if especially a lot of 141 stuff.
Okay.
We have I just got done doing a military,student.
He used his GI bill.
We do, more we're tied into the, localuniversity Oh, okay.
Which is what it was kinda like.
(13:41):
Yeah.
So that's a big thing.
So I would say with our whole or the peoplethat are coming in, 60% community, 40% college
students.
Mhmm.
But almost all of them are professional bound.
Oh, okay.
So it's Whether they're gonna do 121 Or 1335.
(14:01):
Alright.
91.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
And, I mean, that makes that makes sense,especially at the university level at, like,
141 school and then working all the way up.
The so if, I'm add Adam Yuan, I just finished,crashing at KC 135 into the runway at at El
Dauphre.
This is how old Mark and I are
(14:23):
at El Dauphre.
Like remedial training.
Yes.
John Michael is gonna hook us up.
Shout out to John.
Definitely definitely not listening to thepodcast.
But if he is, John, Mark, and I miss you.
The, Oh, I
told him about it.
Oh, good.
Oh, you did.
Okay.
Good.
So let's, let let's take let's take me throughmy my journey.
I need to get my ATP, and I'm I'm I'm finishingup, and I'm like, I don't really know where to
(14:50):
go.
I've heard a couple other places out
there, but I I wanna I'm local because Aerotechso
What makes Aerotech what makes Arotech thechoice of the future?
The future.
The future.
We have a group of CFIs that are just verypassionate about aviation.
You know?
And we truly care about our students.
(15:11):
A lot of our CFIs, although they're, like,professional bound for, like, 121, they really
do care making sure that the students have itright Yeah.
And understand the concepts and theaerodynamics and all that.
Yeah.
Because I feel like overall in general in theindustry, there's a such a big push, to get
(15:34):
things just done and get your certifications,endorsements, ratings, and it's just kinda like
just push them through and but how muchknowledge are the students actually getting?
Mhmm.
Prime yeah.
And so we we tend to really have a passion.
We we want you to understand it.
We have patience.
And, you know, the biggest the biggest obstacleI would say would probably be how do we train
(15:59):
this current generation?
Mhmm.
So okay.
Well Just like our parents would say, like,these Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
So you say eat fish.
What what's what what's the number one what'sthe number one item that you see with the these
these younger aspiring professional aviatorscoming up then?
(16:21):
I mean, if there's one trend item that youcould pick out that's problematic and I'm
talking like this is pre military trainingparty.
This is specific to this
is probably like like you said Yeah.
In general, what I see.
Just the idea that you wanna get it done, whichI understand, but you gotta you gotta really
(16:47):
put in the, the knowledge concept of it and notjust not do the accelerated track just to get
it.
Yeah.
So And
I understand that.
Like I think we all did.
Standpoint.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that can be that's across the board.
Yeah.
I foundationally speaking, I I think I mean,well, I remember when I was even in UPT, it was
(17:11):
I just wanted to get it over with to get itdone.
Not realizing how much fun training canactually be because you you you can Yeah.
You can learn that.
Training's never fun, but it's No.
I didn't realize expensive.
It's expensive too.
And that's yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
On especially on that side.
I mean, military,
that was cheap.
Right now for a private pilot license, theaverage rate's $18,000.
(17:33):
Jeez.
That's a difference.
And that's just for the private.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's remember going through my commercialhaving to get all those hours, and
I paid less than what a private pilot ismaking.
Wow.
That's crazy.
Not even making, but, yeah, how much it justcosts so much.
Wow.
And that's that's industry wide.
That it it makes sense to me that that's well,I mean, everything else is gone.
(17:55):
At the price of education across the board, nomatter what kind of education it is, has
rocketed up.
So why why would it be any different inaviation?
Yeah.
And the one thing we see now used to be wherepeople would come in from the community just to
get a private pilot license just to have oneand run the plane, and you don't see that
anymore because that's a really expensivehobby.
Yeah.
That is
a hobby that is quite expensive.
(18:17):
That's when you go to Oshkosh EA fly ins likethat, you realize that the it there's there's 2
types of pilots that there's the older personwho has money, who's into general aviation.
And then there's the younger people, and everyone of them is aspiring to be professional.
(18:38):
There is very few aspiring general aviationenthusiasts anymore.
In fact, I don't And one thing I will say.
No.
Go ahead.
I don't know any I don't know I don't well, Idon't know any I don't really know any
nonprofessional pilots who are into generalaviation at at 45.
I don't either anymore.
Yeah.
I don't think I know anybody.
(18:59):
The one thing I will say, you were talkingabout the price of education and which is a
money making racket, I think, in certainaspects.
Excellent.
There's some out there.
However There is.
You will spend a lot of money getting all yourratings and endorsements and certificates, but
because of how much money you could possiblymake, I've heard you call it the $1,000,000
(19:22):
club.
Mhmm.
That's one of those I think aviation is one ofthose careers where you can actually go ahead
and spend that type of money.
And if you're good with money in 5 to 7 years,you could have all that debt paid back.
I agree.
In fact, nowadays, if you're very smart, andyou you do your research before you start the
(19:44):
journey, you can Yes.
You can be back making you could you can havethat done in in 3 years paid off.
If if you
if you don't You said 5 to 7
to be nice.
Yeah.
5 to 7 to be if you don't wanna and and that'snot living to the point where it's like you all
you're having for yeah.
Ramen noodles at and that's the delicacy thatyou get.
(20:05):
So I think
Yes.
I I think right now I don't know if that'sgonna be forever for sure.
Right?
But, like, it never is.
Aviation is ever flexing and changing.
Right?
I mean, it just we you and I were just talkingabout my rant on going, asking retirees to come
back for nothing, and that I would not haveexpected that to happen as part of the process,
(20:28):
but who knows where they're going with thatnext.
Anyways, Mark, if, if I need to get a hold ofif I wanna get a hold of you to set up any kind
of training because I like, the way I alwayslook at it is for those of us who actually
wanna go do general aviation, I'm not that guyright now.
I have too much going on in my life.
But there are a lot of professional pilots whoare getting to the point now where they're
(20:49):
making some decent money.
They wanna go take their family up.
A lot of my friends do
that that are pilots.
Yeah.
That because it's that time in their life.
Like, they they wanna show their family whatthey do.
You always come back.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
You well, nobody leaves it money.
Yeah.
And nobody actually leaves aviation.
Even if they leave it, they still somehow getsI I shouldn't say that.
I do know a couple of retired airline captainswho left, and they have not been to an airport
(21:12):
in, like, 4 years.
But they were they flew Very few.
They flew for 5th 45 years.
They're like, yeah.
I'm I'm I need a break.
I'm done.
I'm done for a while.
Mark Reeder.
Yeah.
So so I need I need to get a hold of Mark.
I need to get a a I need to get some either I'mgonna go with a young CFI and start working
towards getting whatever it is.
(21:32):
I I need to get, a rating.
I want to start flying again and see what it'slike to fly a small airplane so I can go take
my family.
Or I'm just starting out.
How do I get a hold of you?
I would say go ahead and go to aero techservices dot com.
Okay.
And we have a host of CFIs, MEIs, double i's,anything you need, and, I would call the front
(21:59):
desk.
Like I said, go to the website.
All that information is there.
And if you're anywhere near Lancaster,Pennsylvania,
come on by.
Okay.
So air tech services dot com.
If you, if you wanna get ahold of Markdirectly, hit me up.
I'll get ahold of him for you.
Okay?
Because he's he's there's too many people whoOr just request for me.
(22:19):
Or yeah.
Or or request yeah.
Request Mark McCown and say, that that dudeneed my MEI.
I need my MEI.
Okay.
So, we normally do this thing called the boldface on the show with, guests where they get to
say the one thing that they, want everybody totake away.
I'm gonna have I got 2 things here.
So the first thing is you get, let's say I'mgonna hack my clock.
(22:41):
You get 30 sec you get a minute.
1 minute.
Your favorite story that involves me and youfrom, the active duty days.
Go.
And we gotta keep it g rated.
We gotta keep it g rated.
Good
luck.
My like I said, we talked about this.
You and I ended up going to Germany.
(23:03):
Yeah.
Frankfurt.
Rhein Main.
Source menu with the copilot.
Yeah.
Rhein Main.
Yes.
Yes.
And it was only supposed to be, like, anovernight or a 2 day trip.
And then Frank Schorzmann, while he was tryingto load up the cargo and help us out with the
bag, somehow threw his back.
He tweaked his back, and, he didn't think muchof it.
(23:24):
And then, like, 7 hours later after not leavingthe seat, he couldn't get out of the, you know,
aircraft commander's seat.
And I just remember him saying, I can't get outof the seat, and you and I were behind him, And
we looked at each other with this big grinbecause we knew We knew.
Heat for a week.
We just have
(23:44):
do whatever we wanna do.
Yep.
It was we paid vacation.
We did a lot of stuff.
Oh, we did.
Paid vacation in Frankfurt.
And that was my first time ever to Germany.
So that was, Mine too.
We had oh, I I recall.
And, again, this is very g rated.
If you want more information, you have to cometo t p n x and ask me directly.
(24:07):
I wish Mark was coming.
He can't make it this year.
I will be in Naples.
Yeah.
I yeah.
Oh, boohoo.
So Yeah.
Okay.
Let's the bold face.
One thing that I want folks to take away.
This can be anything, whether it's, MEA Marktalking, boom operator Mark talking, or just
Mark the man talking.
What's the one thing people need to take awayfrom either this podcast or just you and I's
(24:30):
conversation over a life over the lifetime ofour friendship?
I would say that aviation is a very seriousbusiness, and do not get complacent in
the cockpit because it will kill you.
I like that because I've gotten I've hadcomplacency come into we all have.
It's not abnormal.
Yes.
It's no.
Yep.
(24:50):
To everybody.
It happens.
And then, remember everybody,airitexservices.com is where you can reach out
to mark good people there if you need training,if you need to get recurrent, if you wanna
start your journey.
Charter.
Charter.
Oh, Charter.
Okay.
I like it.
Maybe we need to hit AeroTech Services.
They need to bring a contingent to tp and xrecruit and, and There you go.
Start working with us.
(25:11):
And if you need to reach out to myself or Matt,hey, guys, at the pilot network dot com.
You can reach us, through all the socials.
Links are on thepilotnetwork.com.
Visit the website.
Check out the pro community.
We encourage you to reach out and interact withus.
Bring us ideas.
Write us letters either written or via email.
Tell us what you think.
We wanna hear from you.
(25:32):
We wanna answer your questions and beconstantly on the lookout for new ideas.
Finally, if you are flying, fly safe.
Keep the shiny side up and the greasy sidedown.
Yes.
Fly safe, everybody.
Yo, TPN.
How are you?
This episode was reported a while back.
I found it in our old stuff when after we gotthrough t p n x, and then we kinda took our
little summer break.
And I wanted to get it out there because it'swith a really good friend of mine, Mark McCown,
former air force boom operator, instructorpilot, now in in Pennsylvania, running a flight
(00:45):
school and all the good stuff that he came fromfrom being an enlisted guy in the air force to
now doing his own flight school stuff.
And, just a go getter, a good friend of mine,dude who served admirably in the k c 135.
I, Mark, this is an apology to you.
Sorry this took so long to get out.
(01:07):
I almost forgot about it.
I did forget about it.
Anyways, I really enjoyed talking to Mark, andI wanted to share this episode now because
after I listened to it again, I said, hey.
You know, this is really applicable to a lot ofpeople who are kinda getting the aviation bug,
number 1.
But number 2, a lot of different things havehappened since we recorded this back in, I
(01:30):
don't know, like, February or something likethat when the weather stunk here in the
Midwest.
Mark was essentially talking about how he wastaking these students and and working with them
and, you know, watching them go from nothing topropilot and then moving on up the ranks.
And with the stall out of hiring and otherstuff that's happened, I think that people
(01:55):
kinda need to get back to that, you know, likethe fundamentals or the foundational stuff or
just be remotivated back to those days whenthey first started.
And the fact is is we're still gonna needpilots for a long time to come.
So, get out there.
If you're interested, if this is something thatyou wanna do, now is a great time to do that.
Hopefully, financing rates come down and allthat stuff, and flying will become, not,
(02:20):
cheaper, but just more affordable, than it hasbeen, recently.
Anyways, you could listen to me ramble or wecan listen to Mark and I have a great
conversation.
Hope you enjoy it.
Network, I am joined today by a dear friend.
(02:41):
Mark, how the hell are you?
It's been a long time.
Hello, sir.
It's it has been a while.
I haven't seen you
Yeah.
Seen like this?
It's yeah.
Like what we've seen.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe there's been a seen?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Physically, I don't 20 years?
20 years.
Maybe slightly less if you and Jen came back.
I'm sure I'm sure the I'm sure the listenersout there are extremely interested in the last
(03:04):
time that we saw each other.
Anyways, Mark and I used to work together manyyears ago in a little squadron, the flying
triangles, the 349th at McConnell Air ForceBase.
And that seems like a lifetime ago, which itkinda was for, your kids, who are older, my
kids who are, younger.
And it was funny because, Mark always wasinterested in aviation and and better at it
(03:30):
than I was.
And
I concur.
Yeah.
And he actually went out.
And after he did the boom operating thing, hekinda, got into aviation a little bit deeper.
But before we go there, Mark, why don't youtell the wonderful network folks out there how
you first even got interested in being a boomoperator and then how that took hold into your
(03:52):
aviation career post air force?
Yeah.
I always had a passion for flying.
And when I first joined the air force in 1997,I basically had a desk job.
Didn't like it, so I cross trained into toaerial refueling.
(04:13):
The mid mid aerial Mid aerial refuelingspecialist.
Yes.
Yes.
AKA boom operator.
I had had an experience when I was in Japanwith my buddy that he was a boom operator, so
he ended up going up and taking afamiliarization of flight, and then we ended
up, in the boom pod, and I liked what I saw.
(04:36):
And so I decided to cross train because itlooked cool.
I had to wear a flight sheet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think a lot of us but that's right.
That's kind of a lot of us get that, that thatdesire from the, the green flight suit.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
And how so
how long were you you were
in the air force for, what, 8 years?
(04:57):
Was it 8 or is it little less?
Yeah.
It was 8 years and ended up, getting outbecause I was kinda nonvolued to a flight
engineer at c 5.
Not interesting.
And I didn't wanna do that.
So going back to what we were talking about acouple days ago about how the air force wants
to retire his back.
(05:17):
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So maybe maybe maybe you should go back and, bea boom.
Hey.
I'm I'm I'm yeah.
Maybe or maybe not.
But I remember the I remember that pretty well.
There's a lot of booms you didn't wanna leave.
So for those of you who, are looking at careersin aviation outside of being a pilot or just
starting out, the argument that's out there,and I think it's a very solid one, is the best
(05:43):
enlisted job in the air force is, boomoperator.
And Yes.
I I would I would venture to say I've met veryfew booms who are unhappy at that position when
they're doing it.
And in the garden reserve, boom operators stayforever.
They never leave.
I mean, booms don't retire.
So It's
a sweet gig.
(06:03):
It's it is.
It's a great gig, and it's fun.
It's I I have I have a lot of respect,obviously.
I worked with them, and, some of my bestfriends are still boom operators.
I mean, Mark and I, that's 20 years ago.
20 years ago.
20 years ago, we were in Germany on our on ourTDY together with, Frank Shoresman.
Shout out to Frank.
And Yes.
(06:24):
Those days, are are are very implanted in ourmemories.
But that's how Mark got interested in aviation,did some work with the military, with me and
back in the active duty days, but he kinda wenton a whole different route.
And it was it's more circuitous than most.
So what happened after you left the military?
(06:46):
So I got out in 2,005, came back home tobeautiful South Central Pennsylvania with my
wife, Jenny, and my kid, Tristan, and startedthe family business, which was construction
with my brother and my father at the time.
So after that, about 3 years, I went ahead andgot the itch to start flight again.
(07:07):
I I I remember that.
Went ahead to Yeah.
Local airport where I now was working andstarted with my sport pilot license and just
got into that back in 2008.
And then 12 years later, I ended up getting myCFI.
So wow.
That's over the course of 12 years.
Yeah.
That's Sport pilot all the way up.
(07:28):
Not not not not not expeditiously rippingthrough the licensure process at that point.
But No.
Not the fast track.
But it The the running a
company with 5 kids and a wife
Yeah.
The the reality track is you might wanna callit.
Yeah.
The reality track.
I think, that is so there's what we're tryingto do is as we lead up to TPNX in, in April for
(07:57):
the folks out there.
I I want people to realize who who don'tbecause both Mark and I, military guys.
Right?
We had no idea really what was outside ofaviation besides what we were doing in the
military.
Maybe we you know, like me, I saw, oh, there'sairlines, and then there's, military pilots.
I didn't even know, like, that the coast guard,it really had an aviation arm.
(08:19):
You know what I mean?
I saw him fly, but I didn't really understandit.
Stuff like that.
So what I want people to understand out thereand what I'm hoping we're trying to kinda get
the point across is that there's all theseother kind of options and opportunities.
So you go and you get your CFI.
It takes time because you're busy working withI mean, you've got kids, you got a real job,
(08:42):
and you can try to blame Jenny, but I knowJenny and that there is no blame there.
Yeah.
That's yeah.
No.
No.
No.
So She should have been extremely supportive atall.
Yeah.
And she I I remember that from the verybeginning.
So how does one go from, like, I got my sportpilot license, and I'm take I have to take kind
of a slow road to get up to the CFI to go on.
I'm gonna start my own I'm gonna I'm gonnakinda I mean, you already had an
(09:05):
entrepreneurial spirit, but how then you go andyou're like, I'm gonna get into this, like,
legit
Flying thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, Yeah.
Well, first off, I use the post 911 GI Bill.
Okay.
Smart.
And for me, it paid about $70,000 over thecourse, like that 12 years.
Okay.
Wow.
And so that is how I was able to
(09:26):
do a lot of that.
Okay.
And then, and then where are you now?
At your AviationNow?
Oh, as my so I'm pretty much an MEI Okay.
Over at AeroTech Services, and I do that parttime, but being part time is 4 or 5 days a
week.
Oh my gosh.
(09:47):
So you so you're out there just teaching kidshow to fly airplanes?
Well, kids.
Yeah.
Just specifically yeah.
The CMEI.
It's the only thing I do.
Okay.
I do have my CFI, but I don't really use it fortoo much because I don't have the time to start
from Yeah.
A student who knows absolutely nothing aboutwhat an aileron is.
(10:07):
Yeah.
All the way up to, you know, solo.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
And then have you ever thought about taking itthe next step and, like, going and doing
getting your
Oh, yeah.
I've I've got my feet wet, as far as, 135.
Okay.
Operations and then but not 121.
No.
No.
(10:28):
Not not interesting.
It is interesting, but the we got out, like,when we did, it was, like, 270 years deployed,
and I just don't wanna go back to that.
And and Jenny at the same time Yeah.
She's the same way.
She's, please, too much going on.
So, yeah, it's funny you say that.
(10:48):
I I have a friend.
In fact, I'm trying to get him on the podcastas well, who's one of the dads at our school.
So I met a pilot in the wild, which
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
Which is rare.
Like, I I didn't realize I was like, no.
I've met guys before, and then I'm like, no.
I haven't.
I've randomly met 2 guys on the golf course,and then I met, but never in my community ever.
(11:09):
And then this this this guy, Scott, he's apilot, corporate pilot, flies Foo for a family,
and now he flies for a company.
Well, anyways, but long story short, he was notinterested in going 121 at all, and he does
super long trips, like, longer trips than Iever do.
However, he has some more time.
(11:29):
Well, 95 ops?
91, 130.
I think 91.
Yeah.
11.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But he it's like, he had a 12 day they startedas an 8 day and turned into, like, 12 days
gone.
And I'm going, woof.
Shannon would not not dig for that.
But that that's how their family operates, andthey're okay with that.
You know what I mean?
So I but I totally understand.
I mean, all that deploy time, it takes it'skind of a cumulative toll.
(11:53):
And to go back and then it's also starting fromthe 121 starting from scratch, if you got into
121 at this point.
So what do you like, are what's the plan goingforward as far as I mean, is this it?
Like, just gonna instruct being commercialmulti engine, or do you think maybe, hey.
I'm gonna start my own jam and go do like, Idon't know.
(12:14):
Get out on you're already in you're alreadyyou've already run a business.
Yeah.
I never wanna say never.
Yeah.
And the good thing is, like, when I have, allthe MEI experience, it's all PIC multi engine
time Yeah.
Which is really nice.
So Well Right now, I plan on this staying righthere, but who who knows?
(12:35):
I know they are in desperate need of all sortsof pilots.
Yeah.
To say to say the least.
To say the least, it's it's the 121 world'schanging a little bit, but across the rest of
the board, it's it's you it's uniquelyfascinating.
I've never really seen anything like this.
Now mind you, I've only been around for, youknow, 12 years in this in the civil side, but
(12:59):
20 years in the military.
Still haven't seen really anything like it.
The the the next question I had about AeroText,services.
Alright.
So do you guys, now are you full service as faras, like, if there's a guy who is military
dude, military gal in Jersey, they need to gettheir ATP done.
Do you guys have connections to get ATP in
(13:20):
the military?
Service company.
So if especially a lot of 141 stuff.
Okay.
We have I just got done doing a military,student.
He used his GI bill.
We do, more we're tied into the, localuniversity Oh, okay.
Which is what it was kinda like.
(13:41):
Yeah.
So that's a big thing.
So I would say with our whole or the peoplethat are coming in, 60% community, 40% college
students.
Mhmm.
But almost all of them are professional bound.
Oh, okay.
So it's Whether they're gonna do 121 Or 1335.
(14:01):
Alright.
91.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
And, I mean, that makes that makes sense,especially at the university level at, like,
141 school and then working all the way up.
The so if, I'm add Adam Yuan, I just finished,crashing at KC 135 into the runway at at El
Dauphre.
This is how old Mark and I are
(14:23):
at El Dauphre.
Like remedial training.
Yes.
John Michael is gonna hook us up.
Shout out to John.
Definitely definitely not listening to thepodcast.
But if he is, John, Mark, and I miss you.
The, Oh, I
told him about it.
Oh, good.
Oh, you did.
Okay.
Good.
So let's, let let's take let's take me throughmy my journey.
I need to get my ATP, and I'm I'm I'm finishingup, and I'm like, I don't really know where to
(14:50):
go.
I've heard a couple other places out
there, but I I wanna I'm local because Aerotechso
What makes Aerotech what makes Arotech thechoice of the future?
The future.
The future.
We have a group of CFIs that are just verypassionate about aviation.
You know?
And we truly care about our students.
(15:11):
A lot of our CFIs, although they're, like,professional bound for, like, 121, they really
do care making sure that the students have itright Yeah.
And understand the concepts and theaerodynamics and all that.
Yeah.
Because I feel like overall in general in theindustry, there's a such a big push, to get
(15:34):
things just done and get your certifications,endorsements, ratings, and it's just kinda like
just push them through and but how muchknowledge are the students actually getting?
Mhmm.
Prime yeah.
And so we we tend to really have a passion.
We we want you to understand it.
We have patience.
And, you know, the biggest the biggest obstacleI would say would probably be how do we train
(15:59):
this current generation?
Mhmm.
So okay.
Well Just like our parents would say, like,these Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
So you say eat fish.
What what's what what's the number one what'sthe number one item that you see with the these
these younger aspiring professional aviatorscoming up then?
(16:21):
I mean, if there's one trend item that youcould pick out that's problematic and I'm
talking like this is pre military trainingparty.
This is specific to this
is probably like like you said Yeah.
In general, what I see.
Just the idea that you wanna get it done, whichI understand, but you gotta you gotta really
(16:47):
put in the, the knowledge concept of it and notjust not do the accelerated track just to get
it.
Yeah.
So And
I understand that.
Like I think we all did.
Standpoint.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that can be that's across the board.
Yeah.
I foundationally speaking, I I think I mean,well, I remember when I was even in UPT, it was
(17:11):
I just wanted to get it over with to get itdone.
Not realizing how much fun training canactually be because you you you can Yeah.
You can learn that.
Training's never fun, but it's No.
I didn't realize expensive.
It's expensive too.
And that's yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
On especially on that side.
I mean, military,
that was cheap.
Right now for a private pilot license, theaverage rate's $18,000.
(17:33):
Jeez.
That's a difference.
And that's just for the private.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's remember going through my commercialhaving to get all those hours, and
I paid less than what a private pilot ismaking.
Wow.
That's crazy.
Not even making, but, yeah, how much it justcosts so much.
Wow.
And that's that's industry wide.
That it it makes sense to me that that's well,I mean, everything else is gone.
(17:55):
At the price of education across the board, nomatter what kind of education it is, has
rocketed up.
So why why would it be any different inaviation?
Yeah.
And the one thing we see now used to be wherepeople would come in from the community just to
get a private pilot license just to have oneand run the plane, and you don't see that
anymore because that's a really expensivehobby.
Yeah.
That is
a hobby that is quite expensive.
(18:17):
That's when you go to Oshkosh EA fly ins likethat, you realize that the it there's there's 2
types of pilots that there's the older personwho has money, who's into general aviation.
And then there's the younger people, and everyone of them is aspiring to be professional.
(18:38):
There is very few aspiring general aviationenthusiasts anymore.
In fact, I don't And one thing I will say.
No.
Go ahead.
I don't know any I don't know I don't well, Idon't know any I don't really know any
nonprofessional pilots who are into generalaviation at at 45.
I don't either anymore.
Yeah.
I don't think I know anybody.
(18:59):
The one thing I will say, you were talkingabout the price of education and which is a
money making racket, I think, in certainaspects.
Excellent.
There's some out there.
However There is.
You will spend a lot of money getting all yourratings and endorsements and certificates, but
because of how much money you could possiblymake, I've heard you call it the $1,000,000
(19:22):
club.
Mhmm.
That's one of those I think aviation is one ofthose careers where you can actually go ahead
and spend that type of money.
And if you're good with money in 5 to 7 years,you could have all that debt paid back.
I agree.
In fact, nowadays, if you're very smart, andyou you do your research before you start the
(19:44):
journey, you can Yes.
You can be back making you could you can havethat done in in 3 years paid off.
If if you
if you don't You said 5 to 7
to be nice.
Yeah.
5 to 7 to be if you don't wanna and and that'snot living to the point where it's like you all
you're having for yeah.
Ramen noodles at and that's the delicacy thatyou get.
(20:05):
So I think
Yes.
I I think right now I don't know if that'sgonna be forever for sure.
Right?
But, like, it never is.
Aviation is ever flexing and changing.
Right?
I mean, it just we you and I were just talkingabout my rant on going, asking retirees to come
back for nothing, and that I would not haveexpected that to happen as part of the process,
(20:28):
but who knows where they're going with thatnext.
Anyways, Mark, if, if I need to get a hold ofif I wanna get a hold of you to set up any kind
of training because I like, the way I alwayslook at it is for those of us who actually
wanna go do general aviation, I'm not that guyright now.
I have too much going on in my life.
But there are a lot of professional pilots whoare getting to the point now where they're
(20:49):
making some decent money.
They wanna go take their family up.
A lot of my friends do
that that are pilots.
Yeah.
That because it's that time in their life.
Like, they they wanna show their family whatthey do.
You always come back.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
You well, nobody leaves it money.
Yeah.
And nobody actually leaves aviation.
Even if they leave it, they still somehow getsI I shouldn't say that.
I do know a couple of retired airline captainswho left, and they have not been to an airport
(21:12):
in, like, 4 years.
But they were they flew Very few.
They flew for 5th 45 years.
They're like, yeah.
I'm I'm I need a break.
I'm done.
I'm done for a while.
Mark Reeder.
Yeah.
So so I need I need to get a hold of Mark.
I need to get a a I need to get some either I'mgonna go with a young CFI and start working
towards getting whatever it is.
(21:32):
I I need to get, a rating.
I want to start flying again and see what it'slike to fly a small airplane so I can go take
my family.
Or I'm just starting out.
How do I get a hold of you?
I would say go ahead and go to aero techservices dot com.
Okay.
And we have a host of CFIs, MEIs, double i's,anything you need, and, I would call the front
(21:59):
desk.
Like I said, go to the website.
All that information is there.
And if you're anywhere near Lancaster,Pennsylvania,
come on by.
Okay.
So air tech services dot com.
If you, if you wanna get ahold of Markdirectly, hit me up.
I'll get ahold of him for you.
Okay?
Because he's he's there's too many people whoOr just request for me.
(22:19):
Or yeah.
Or or request yeah.
Request Mark McCown and say, that that dudeneed my MEI.
I need my MEI.
Okay.
So, we normally do this thing called the boldface on the show with, guests where they get to
say the one thing that they, want everybody totake away.
I'm gonna have I got 2 things here.
So the first thing is you get, let's say I'mgonna hack my clock.
(22:41):
You get 30 sec you get a minute.
1 minute.
Your favorite story that involves me and youfrom, the active duty days.
Go.
And we gotta keep it g rated.
We gotta keep it g rated.
Good
luck.
My like I said, we talked about this.
You and I ended up going to Germany.
(23:03):
Yeah.
Frankfurt.
Rhein Main.
Source menu with the copilot.
Yeah.
Rhein Main.
Yes.
Yes.
And it was only supposed to be, like, anovernight or a 2 day trip.
And then Frank Schorzmann, while he was tryingto load up the cargo and help us out with the
bag, somehow threw his back.
He tweaked his back, and, he didn't think muchof it.
(23:24):
And then, like, 7 hours later after not leavingthe seat, he couldn't get out of the, you know,
aircraft commander's seat.
And I just remember him saying, I can't get outof the seat, and you and I were behind him, And
we looked at each other with this big grinbecause we knew We knew.
Heat for a week.
We just have
(23:44):
do whatever we wanna do.
Yep.
It was we paid vacation.
We did a lot of stuff.
Oh, we did.
Paid vacation in Frankfurt.
And that was my first time ever to Germany.
So that was, Mine too.
We had oh, I I recall.
And, again, this is very g rated.
If you want more information, you have to cometo t p n x and ask me directly.
(24:07):
I wish Mark was coming.
He can't make it this year.
I will be in Naples.
Yeah.
I yeah.
Oh, boohoo.
So Yeah.
Okay.
Let's the bold face.
One thing that I want folks to take away.
This can be anything, whether it's, MEA Marktalking, boom operator Mark talking, or just
Mark the man talking.
What's the one thing people need to take awayfrom either this podcast or just you and I's
(24:30):
conversation over a life over the lifetime ofour friendship?
I would say that aviation is a very seriousbusiness, and do not get complacent in
the cockpit because it will kill you.
I like that because I've gotten I've hadcomplacency come into we all have.
It's not abnormal.
Yes.
It's no.
Yep.
(24:50):
To everybody.
It happens.
And then, remember everybody,airitexservices.com is where you can reach out
to mark good people there if you need training,if you need to get recurrent, if you wanna
start your journey.
Charter.
Charter.
Oh, Charter.
Okay.
I like it.
Maybe we need to hit AeroTech Services.
They need to bring a contingent to tp and xrecruit and, and There you go.
Start working with us.
(25:11):
And if you need to reach out to myself or Matt,hey, guys, at the pilot network dot com.
You can reach us, through all the socials.
Links are on thepilotnetwork.com.
Visit the website.
Check out the pro community.
We encourage you to reach out and interact withus.
Bring us ideas.
Write us letters either written or via email.
Tell us what you think.
We wanna hear from you.
(25:32):
We wanna answer your questions and beconstantly on the lookout for new ideas.
Finally, if you are flying, fly safe.
Keep the shiny side up and the greasy sidedown.
Yes.
Fly safe, everybody.
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