January 2, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode, Adam chats with Erika Armstrong about her aviation career, from business aviation to Northwest Airlines and back again. They discuss her unique path and her journey in a male-dominated field. Erika highlights the role of human factors in pilot training, the importance of mentorship, and balancing family life. She also talks about the many transitions pilots face through her experiences in her book, "A Chick in the Cockpit." Erika offers guidance for aspiring pilots, addressing future challenges associated with the industry, and look into the always murky crystal ball.
Want to connect with Erika? https://www.linkedin.com/in/achickinthecockpitb727/
Check out here stuff!
https://www.aircrewacademy.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Hey, network.
What's going on?
I just got done recording an awesome podcastwith Erica Armstrong.
She is the author of a chick in the cockpit, mylife up in the air.
But that's just one small piece.
She has a very interesting journey of goinginto business aviation, then leaving it for the
part 121 world, getting furloughed, and thengoing back into business aviation and sticking
(00:37):
around there, which is something that we don'talways hear a lot about.
I found it to be fascinating because I don'tknow if I could ever do that.
I think if I got furloughed, I'd just say, oh,I'm done with this.
I gotta find something else to do with my life.
This aviation gig ain't for me.
Erica didn't do that.
She found a whole new aspect of aviation to getinto where she teaches a lot about human
(00:59):
factors, safety stuff, all the things that wefind interesting that are the analytics of
aviation, and we touch briefly on a lot of thisstuff.
Her work at Metropolitan State University inDenver, where she's taught people from brand
new out of high school kids to longtimeveterans in the military returning into
aviation or trying to get into the aviationside of things.
(01:21):
So, she we run the whole gamut of theprofessional, the personal.
She is a wonderful human being and somebodythat I really enjoyed spending some time with.
I actually would love to have her come up tothe pilot network experience in Minneapolis.
Her engaging personality is something that weneed more of in aviation.
(01:42):
She has a huge following on LinkedIn.
Go check her out there.
She's all over the social media channels.
But first let's listen to her chat on the pilotnetwork podcast.
I hope you enjoy.
Erica, thank you so much for joining us today.
This is something after I saw your profile onLinkedIn, I had to reach out and I was blown
(02:03):
away that you responded so quickly.
And also you, as a side note to all thelisteners out there, Erica, who is one of the
most popular people on LinkedIn, with aviationand aviation parallel stuff, was the fastest
response and the easiest scheduling I've everdone in throughout the podcast history.
(02:26):
Through through some time, she's like, yep.
Okay.
Perfect.
And I was like, holy cow.
This is, I wish there was all like this, butit's not.
But thank you so much for joining, the, thepilot network podcast.
Let's jump right in.
Let's let's let's knock out some of yourbackground because you have you're you have an
interesting story and how you got to where youare today.
(02:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Anytime I get to talk about aviation, I'mthere.
So I'm a, you know, aviation geek at my core.
So absolutely.
So, yeah, I'll give you my, my entire, aviationcareer in under a minute.
I've been in it for about almost 35 years nowon both sides of the cockpit door.
I started off in business aviation, which a lotof people don't know about that sector of of
(03:08):
the industry.
So I spent many years learning all sorts ofthings on that side of it, not just the flying
side, but also the business side.
And then because I lived in Minnesota, I wenton to Northwest Airlines.
And then when they got bought out, by DeltaAirlines, we all got furloughed, and so I've
been back in business aviation again.
So it's been really fun to go into the industryand the, business aviation go out and then come
(03:33):
back in again.
So I'm on the training side, and, seeing howmuch has changed and the culture changed.
So, yeah, it's been a fascinating journey.
It that's such an normally, it's the other wayaround.
Right?
Like, a lot of people start in businessaviation.
They get their first, you know, low time gig,then they move on to a corporate job, maybe a
lower level or a lower paying corporate gig.
(03:54):
With that goal of getting to a major carrier, alegacy carrier.
And you did the inverse.
What was that like?
First of all, the furlough was probably, likemost people, not a fun time and fairly
devastating.
But what was that like to go from the scheduledpart 121?
It's the same thing.
You're doing the same kind of thing every day,day in, day out.
(04:16):
You've got your whole career laid out in frontof you to stepping back into a world that you
had left.
And now you're going back into this againsaying, well, okay.
I guess this part of my life is over.
Were you were you certain that you're gonna dothat for the rest of your career, or was this
more of a, hey.
This is just gonna pass the time, and I'll, youknow, I get get done with this furlough?
(04:37):
Well, you you hit on the keyword furlough.
And so, you know, the aviation industry hasreally stabilized over the last few years,
really.
We don't have that many more mergers.
It's just not that possibility.
And when I was in business aviation, of course,my goodness, I had been, you know, transition
and lateral moves because aircraft gets sold,companies shut down their flight departments.
(05:00):
There's a lot of instability there.
So, I have learned how to roll with it, andthat's what I you know, that's the best advice
you can give to anybody who's gonna come intothis industry, especially if you don't jump
right into the regional and airline route.
But and you also hit the key point too and thedifferences between the two sectors.
The airlines, when I I mean, I had 6 bases in 2years, but it's always the same thing.
(05:25):
You know?
I was based in Detroit, and so I'm flying toSaint Louis and Dallas.
And, you know, it's it was such a contrast.
It was such a rude awakening coming frombusiness aviation where I am flying to
Australia and going to Aspen and Vail and thevery, you know, challenges in business
aviation.
You just they're so different than, the airlineworld.
(05:46):
So, when you ask somebody what it means to be apilot, it's really different for the airlines
versus business aviation.
So it is a different mindset and perspective onthose, and, I I appreciate that I've had this
opportunity because it wasn't necessarily, youknow, my choice.
I had just gotten a new captain job on acitation, and, I had been sent to school.
(06:10):
I had to go jump in the pool, do all the rafttraining and everything.
And the very first phone call I got was saying,hey.
Guess what?
We just sold the airplane.
So I thought, okay.
I'm at enough hours now.
Well, I'm gonna take a look at the airlines,and sure enough, I sent the application over to
Northwest Airlines and got hired in as a flightengineer on the 727.
(06:30):
And, of course, you're bummed because nowyou're not gonna even be flying the airplane,
but that is where my fascination for aircraftsystems got started.
So in the moment, you don't realize you aregonna change your whole life path based on
something that you didn't intend to do, butthis is a good example of, you know, not being
happy with the choice, but being so thankfulfor it later on.
(06:53):
Let's step back a second.
I wanna know what sparked you to get intoaviation because that is we all have that, you
know, the I love origin stories.
This is my favorite type of movies.
So how did that what was your origin story?
So I found aviation completely by accident, andthat's why I'm so purposeful in trying to get
the word out, especially to young women becauseit's just not something that you even think
(07:17):
about.
It wasn't, you know, in your mindset.
And you don't have that tipping point where youthink, well, I know a woman who was a pilot.
So growing up, I didn't know of a single womanpilot except, of course, Amelia Earhart.
Right?
So I was in college at the University ofMinnesota, not quite sure what I wanted to do.
And, I already had 2 jobs and I was justlooking for another job that fit in with my
(07:39):
schedule.
And, of course, airports have really crummyhours because they're open all the time.
So I truly got started because of a job openingthat had really crummy hours.
So I started off working at the front desk of aFBO at the Flying Cloud Airport.
Walked in the door.
Didn't even know there was such a thing as aphonetic alphabet.
(07:59):
I still remember my first day.
They sat me down.
They're showing me the Unicom radio, and I wasjust terrified of who I would be talking to,
and they had ground control.
It was a towered airport.
So listening to tower and ground and just notknowing who are these voices from space are and
who I'm talking to.
So it's just it's so overwhelming at first.
(08:20):
But I'm so thankful I came in that side andjust started learning the industry, talking to
the people.
Aviation draws on such very specificpersonality types.
They're so fascinating and interesting, and, Ijust I loved it that it has its own language
and smell.
And, I mean, every time I smell, like, dieselfuel and kerosene, I mean, it just puts me
(08:42):
right back onto the ramp in Minnesota.
And, and it's, it's just such a fascinatingindustry.
And most people don't realize there's all theseother aspects to it.
You know?
Everybody thinks airline world.
Right?
And that very, you know, straightforwardpathway through, but there's so many things
that are expanding now.
So that's why I love bringing what I've learnednow back to the next generation and just
(09:04):
starting off even, like, with the the trainingand stuff.
We've learned so much now about human factorsand human behavior.
I love taking all that research and analyticsand bringing it back right to the very
beginning and training pilots.
I mean, when when were you ever trained in yourown brain and how you react during, startle
moments?
(09:24):
I was never trained that.
And it's the key in an accident, situation, athought process.
So, you know, now that I've seen the trainingin 135 part 91, 121, all the 145 training, I
can take all of that information, process it,and bring it back to the next generation.
(09:45):
Talking about the next generation.
Well, before we do that, so I wanted to mentionthe radio thing.
I remember when I was in pilot training, thefirst time I ever heard I I had to make a radio
call.
I not good, which is funny because now I talkinto a microphone a lot outside of flying
airplanes.
And I remember the instructor said to me, yes,the brain to disconnect switch.
(10:09):
And I had no idea.
I was like, what is it?
So, yeah, totally get what you're saying.
So and for all of the newbies out there, thefirst time you click the call button or you the
push to talk button, it will disconnect yourbrain.
It will, ridiculous.
And it's okay.
You'll get better at it.
Trust me.
There's some who don't.
(10:30):
And, they you will be ridiculed endlesslythroughout your career.
But it's it's all in fun.
It's all what we do.
Moving on to that thing where you talked about,how you you saw Amelia Earhart.
You know, that was the only woman you reallysaw in aviation.
Did you have a specific mentor role model,especially, when we're getting into the
analytics and that detail oriented piece of howto train better more accurately, and how to
(10:55):
train that human factor side, which issomething that is is fairly new.
I mean, you know, the last 20 years, it'sreally come about, but it's still really new.
And some of the old heads in aviation, they'restill almost reluctant to that change, or or
they've been slow to adopt it because it ischallenging.
It's kind of like in sports where now a lot ofit's analytic based instead of gut feel.
(11:18):
So was there a certain mentor or role model whokinda shifted the way you thought or or or
inspired you or both of those things?
I did.
You know, people ask me quite often, like, youknow, who would I admire?
And these are people you would never know.
And once again, in that moment, you didn'trealize how much they were affecting you.
But when you were asking that question, I couldthink of a few people that popped into my head,
(11:40):
but I'll I'll I'll pull out one of them, onlybecause I remember seeing when I saw when I had
my sim training on the 727, if I saw his nameas the instructor, I would just start sweating
just seeing his name on there because I knew.
But yeah.
So good old Bert Anderson in the simulator.
So when you come in, you pretty much have adefined set of sequence that you're gonna do.
(12:02):
You know you're gonna go and do b one cuts, andyou're gonna do an engine failure here and
there.
I mean, you you go into the simulator basicallykinda knowing what you're gonna do, but not
Bert, man.
He would he would go in there and, generally,especially in business aviation, you don't even
have more than one, systems failure.
But, boy, Bert would go in there and, you know,we do all these things we have to do for the
(12:23):
operating specifications.
Right?
We do all the basic training.
But then he would get to the end, and you justyou could feel yourself starting to sweat
because it was gonna be just chaos.
He would add in all these layers of, failuresin the aircraft.
And, of course, the you know, on the 727, thelast thing would happen was all 3 engines would
be shut down.
You couldn't do a restart, and you had to buythe beer if you couldn't get back to the
(12:46):
airport.
You know?
So at the time, nobody liked it, and we alwayshated it because your job is on the line every
time you go into that simulator.
Right?
And so we did appreciate all these challengesthat we're putting out there, but, boy, I tell
you what.
He made me really dig in and understandaircraft systems and not just how they work,
but how they fail and how if one fails, how itaffects all the others.
(13:10):
But it also taught me how to elevate the wayyou are looking at a situation.
You know, pilots, their their strengths andweaknesses are the same double edged sword.
A pilot has much more ability to think threedimensionally and pull in a whole variety of
information at one time and process it and thendo one response with, you know, moving a yoke
(13:34):
or a stick.
That's pilots don't even realize they're doingit, but think about it instrument approach.
You're bringing in, like, 7 different forms ofinformation at one time, and you don't even
have to think about it.
Like, my best friend, when I'm in the car withher, if she has to read a street sign, she has
to turn down the radio.
Right?
So there's a specific skill set, but that allgoes away during a moment of stress.
(13:56):
You human instinct is you get tunnel vision.
You focus on one situation.
So what he was doing was learning us learningteaching us how to pull back and try to handle
a situation.
So at that point, we were off a checklist.
There was no checklist for what was happening.
So it I mean, you have that moment of just purepanic because you just you really don't know
(14:17):
what to do, but it's a good way of practicingin a safe environment, chaos training.
And then at that moment, which one is the mostimportant?
So when I think back of all the mentors, heunknowingly really, set a pathway forward for
me, and, I I appreciate what he did.
But But at the moment, we did not like seeinghis name on the schedule.
(14:38):
Yeah.
That I think that goes for a lot of us.
We we all have one of those in our in our inour career somewhere along the line.
I think one of the things that you're talkingabout, the challenges that you face
specifically with Burton and how he threw allthis stuff at you.
What were in in the more, I guess, in in theparlance of aviation, the 35,000 foot view?
(15:00):
What were some of the biggest challenges thatyou faced?
Part of it being okay, male dominated crewfelt, especially when you started.
I mean, it's a little different today, notmuch, but a little different.
But back when you started completely different,what were some of the challenges you faced in
in that aspect?
And then just some of the own personalchallenges because aviation is rough for some
(15:21):
of us.
I mean, I started out when I was in pilottraining.
I got told, hey.
You fly the airplane flying, but your braindoesn't work quickly enough to to process the
And I had to I had to I had to shift the way Ithought about entering, just walking into the
flight room that day because it was no longer,hey.
I got the hands, but I don't have the I don'thave the mental speed to catch up with the
(15:43):
aircraft.
What were some of those challenges that youfaced both as a woman, a little bit, but just
personally that you had to deal with as yougrew into aviation and were learning the the
the trade?
Yeah.
It's a great question, and we're all gonna haveour own unique experiences going with going
into it.
Right?
You know, for somebody who wants to to fly andbe a pilot, I I would always forget that I'm
(16:08):
the only woman in the room, which was great forme, but it was always, like, shocking to me
when somebody would push back just because Iwas a woman.
Right?
So it and like you said, it's it's learning howto have some really thick skin.
Even right now, I'm sorry, but you have got tobe able to let it roll off of you.
If you did not learn the the power of humor,you cannot make it through.
(16:31):
I'm just telling you, you need to have go goinginto it, you have to have that knowledge.
I I've met a lot of women who drop out and, youknow, come out of the industry with a lot of,
you know, reason to blame other people for it.
Right?
The misogynists I met, they're they're they'refew, but they're mighty.
But if you look at those people, they aren'tjust doing it to you.
(16:54):
They're doing it to everybody.
They're generally, they have some emotionalintelligence problem that they're working
through.
So you have to remember not to take itpersonally.
And, ironically, the biggest discriminator Iever had was actually a woman, leader who owned
a company who, had hired me to be a pilot, buthad me working in the office.
(17:16):
And, so 6 months later, I still hadn'tscheduled a trip yet and got my training.
And she's like, well, look.
She's like, our clients, they wanna see Adamapp Adam's apple up in the cockpit.
And they just she just said, I didn't think ourour our clients would be comfortable with the
woman.
So, it was always shocking to see it come fromthat side.
(17:36):
But there's a lot of long held beliefs, that,need to be changed.
And it just takes time.
Generationally, that's that's the biggest thingthat's happening right now.
It's just seeing more women so the nextgeneration sees those women.
The best ex example I can give you is when mykids were little.
I have 2 girls.
They're both in college now.
(17:57):
But we were in line at the grocery store, andthere was a pilot in front of us.
He had his epaulettes off, but in his pocket,and he could tell he was coming back from a
trip.
And I had a huge family cart full of groceries,and he had a basket.
And I said, let's let this gentleman go first.
And my daughter who is impatient, she asked,like, why are you doing that?
I said, well, he's a pilot, and he's justcoming back, and he's really tired.
(18:20):
And she stopped and looked at him and thenlooked at me, and she's like, well but, mommy,
do they let boys fly airplanes too?
So right?
So there's a perspective for you out of theminds of babes.
Right?
But they'll grow up with that idea and thatthat image, so they don't think twice.
So, it it's getting better.
But I just don't think the personality typewill you'll ever see that many women flying in
(18:43):
the cockpit, not because they can't, butbecause the personality that comes into this
industry, just doesn't align align with a lotof women.
It's something that I I see when I fly with thenumerous amount of people that I've flown with
in my career.
One of the issues that I always had, especiallywhen I was an instructor, you said, let let,
(19:04):
you know, kind of what off a duck's back?
That's kind of because I I I was actuallyfairly thin skinned when I when I first
started.
Some people would say I still am, but I had tolearn quickly that if you don't tighten tighten
up your game and you don't grow a thick skin,you're not gonna make it very far.
One of the things that I've I've noticed was orI've I've seen lately is the the thinner skin
(19:27):
individual that's out there who cannot take acriticism or has a hard time dealing with their
own personal failures, they tend to internalizea lot of that, and they let those things
compound and it becomes more of a challenge notonly to get better at your craft, especially
when you're new, but later in your career justto do the job because you're you're mentally
(19:50):
beating yourself up.
You're challenged all the time.
And this goes women or men.
It doesn't really matter.
And I think when when you see that kind ofthing, you wanna help them.
But at the same point, you gotta know yourbalance and where to overstep, especially when
you're just 2 first officers or 2 captains orwhatever, and you're not, you know, the person
in in authority, a line check airman orinstructor type in the military or whatever the
(20:12):
case might be.
So I think you've nailed on a lot there wherenot being put in the position to go do what it
is you wanted to do, where you were told bythat woman, hey, you you don't get a trip.
They want to see an Adam's apple up front.
I think one of the things, that we're we're,you know, we're trying to change that narrative
(20:32):
across the board, where, hey, you can fly anairplane, let's go fly it together.
And because we're all in this together,especially in the crew crew environment.
And for those single seat folks out there, youstill got a wingman and you still got to go.
You got you got to fly the airplane correctly.
I think when when you combine all theexperiences that you've had and and you you you
(20:54):
learn from these, Is that what drove you?
And, Erica's got a book called, a chick in thecockpit, my life up in the air.
It's, this personal professional narrative, youknow, you, you, like you mentioned earlier,
incorporates a lot of humor.
You talk about, your vulnerabilities, which Ithink is a huge thing about developing a thick
(21:16):
skin when you finally own up to your mistakesand you say, yeah, that's me.
That's on me.
Right?
Like that.
It's hard to do that when you first learn to dothat.
It's really empowering.
So you you you take all these experiences andyou write this memoir.
Were were you trying at this point, were yougoing, okay, I wanna bring in the analytics and
(21:40):
the safety side of it.
Were you were you trying to meld all thattogether?
Or was or is this just a, hey.
Nobody else is really doing this yet, or Ihaven't seen one of these.
I'm gonna write this book because I'm deathlyafraid of writing because I just don't have the
stamina to sit down and on.
How did you decide to okay.
I'm gonna sit down and do this.
Was this to bring out that analytic piece inthe safety side of things, or was it more, you
(22:05):
know what?
I just wanna I I wanna write.
I wanna tell my story.
Yeah.
So, this will sum it up.
If you read the book, you'll know why I readthe book or why I wrote the book.
I have been in the same book club for 22 yearsnow.
I've been always been an avid reader.
I love writing.
When I was commuting, I used to read a book aweek.
(22:27):
And and don't tell anybody, but, you know, evenwhen you're sitting up at, at altitude on
autopilot, so once in a while, we'd, you know,read a few chapters here and there because, my
goodness, you really want a pilot to be awakeand alert and attentive.
So great way to pass a little bit of time.
So I've always loved the power of the word.
It can be used in such great ways.
It's it's such a powerful platform and peopledon't read that much anymore, unfortunately.
(22:52):
So, I definitely wrote it to bring people intoaviation with me.
We have a lot of books about written aboutwomen in aviation or even men in aviation, but
not a lot of people have written from theirpoint of view.
So I kinda wanted to just bring people in.
And I I've been in the the span of time whereit's been changing rapidly.
(23:14):
Seeing much more a lot more women come in, butdefinitely entering in when there was not a
single woman.
I still remember going to, like, the firstsafety stand down conference, with 500 people,
and of that, only maybe 30 women in the room.
So I'm seeing those numbers get better.
And having more imagery coming out, of ofhaving, you know, women in this industry, but
(23:39):
having an honest conversation about thedifferent challenges.
Getting in aviation is extraordinarily hard formen and women across the board.
So that's part of it, but being a pilot is allencompassing.
It's not like going to an office job and you'veyou leave it behind.
You become a pilot.
Everything you do and live and breathe, isbased on your profession, and there's not many
(24:02):
that are like that.
So it's gonna affect your family.
It's gonna affect, how you raise children and,you know, having your kids understand why you
can't be there for Christmas.
So, try to bring in all the social challengesas well as the industry itself.
That is a, uniquely refreshing piece.
It's something that we talked about, before hestarted is the how the family aspect of this is
(24:24):
so important.
It's I mean, to to most pilots who have afamily, we we I don't even know if it's a joke
anymore.
It's the reality paid from for being away fromhome.
That's what you get really paid for.
I think, is there to to kinda drill down, isthere one particular chapter or a story that
you told in the book that would really resonatewith the crowd of the pilot network as a whole?
(24:47):
A lot of military transitioning or retiredmilitary or or and I say this, with a big
heart.
The kids that are still flying on active dutywho are, looking forward to that next chapter
after the military is done.
So is there one thing out there that maybe youwould resonate with them really well that that
(25:09):
that you have, that's very personal to you?
Yeah.
So just so you know, my dad's I can't say was.
He is a marine.
Yes.
Miss yeah.
Yeah.
Get that right.
Right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Always.
So but yeah.
He and he's one of my heroes, and he he passedaway not that long ago.
But in we kinda talked about this even beforethe podcast started.
(25:31):
One of the reasons why I got fascinated inpilot training was to help people that were
transitioning from the military into, civilianaviation.
They just don't know what that looks like.
What's that pathway forward?
So in my classroom, when I was teaching atMetropolitan State University in Denver, I
would have a a gentleman that had been inAfghanistan several times who, was wanting to
(25:54):
go back into the military as a pilot.
So they were coming out.
They were using their GI bill to get theircollege education and then coming back into the
military again.
So, it it forced me because I wanted to tolearn how to teach somebody sitting next to a
high school kid, 17 years old, coming out ofhigh school, no world experience.
(26:14):
You know, and how do I teach those 2 people thesame content?
So it it shifted how I presented, information,how I tested on information.
It made me really dig into, human learningmethods and styles and, actually, the best way
to present your knowledge.
You know, our old fashioned rote memorization,multiple choice test way that we've been doing
(26:35):
it for always, is not the best way to do boththe training and the teaching, but it's hard.
It takes time.
So it's a it's a burden on both sides.
But, so that's part of the reason I wanted tobring in the stories and, kinda contrast.
Aviation is really good about learning from ourmistakes.
So, each of the chapters will bring in anexample of a a near miss or a close call, and
(26:58):
then contrasting it with, like, a personalchallenge or experience.
So, try to write it for anybody who'sinterested in aviation.
So you you you touched on something there thatI think is something that I've really adhered
to.
I heard this a couple of years back, maybemaybe now.
Wow.
Time flies when you start thinking backwards.
(27:20):
Right?
So maybe 8, 8 years ago or so, I had a goodfriend, Chris Kresge.
A lot of people in the pilot network know whohe is.
He runs Milt ATP.
He told me that to become a great instructor,you needed to be able to teach a certain topic
5 different ways because you will have aplethora of students in how they learn.
(27:44):
And you have a person like me who learns verywell when somebody yells at you and challenge
you and beats you off the head.
But you'll have somebody else who doesn'trespond to that technique at all, and you have
to figure out everything in between and how toteach that person, and that there's very few
bad students.
There's only there's more bad instructors thanthere are bad students.
(28:06):
So I've really adopted that, and and whatyou're saying is it resonates with me and it
makes me think of, okay.
I I'm on the right path.
I continually am on the right path by byadopting that.
It's and it it applies way more than justaviation.
I look at my kids, and when I gotta teach themsomething, okay, that's not working.
Let's try a different technique.
And I used to not think that way.
(28:27):
Even when I was a brand new instructor, Ithought, okay, this is the way, you learn it.
Yeah.
There's different techniques, but I'll teachthe technique the same way I teach the
technique to everybody.
So I appreciate that.
And I think most of the most instructors outthere, when they get when you get a few hours
under your belt as an instructor, you start tolearn that, okay, there's different ways to
teach the topic.
(28:48):
I think that moves me into the the next thenext phase of of aviation that's out there.
Things are changing.
Things are changing rapidly.
We don't know what it's gonna look like in 5years.
We definitely have no clue what it's gonna looklike in 10 years.
(29:09):
What what do you see in the future tocontinually train pilots and to help us adapt
and work with technologies that are coming out,technologies that are already here too?
What do you think are some of our a biggestchallenges and be some of the things that you
and others like you who are in that world whoinstruct and teach both informally and
(29:32):
formally?
What do you think that we can do to continuallybetter ourselves and keep the safety, not
tradition, the safety excellence that wemaintain as a as a as a professional aviation
culture?
Yeah.
That's such a great question, especially rightnow.
It is exciting and terrifying at the same time.
(29:53):
You know, long range.
The reality is, you know, we're probably lastof the dinosaurs.
Truly, we're you see the technology coming out,and we're a long ways away.
But, boy, the conversation's now moving withunmanned aircraft and drones and UAS and UVA
and all that.
It's it's it's common.
So, you know, but while we've transitionedthrough there, this is why, you know, everybody
(30:18):
complains about the next generation.
But what I see, is the breakdown for maybe theolder generation like me is that communication
with technology because it has made usexponentially safer.
All the automation levels that are added now toaircraft, you know, allows you to be a pilot,
and you are there to, you know, that aircraftis there to speak to you and tell you it it it
(30:41):
it tells you what's wrong with it now.
All the new I was in a Global 6,000 justyesterday, and it's just amazing how much that
information it can give to the pilot.
But we still have to have that basicunderstanding of what is it actually
communicating to you.
That's the that's the gonna be the breakdown.
So, you know, the when I see the challenges ofwhat's happening right now, it's we are losing
(31:06):
pilots in our numbers exponentially.
Right?
So we're trying to run pilots through trainingmuch faster with, you know, less time even
though they they up the timing requirements.
But for me, that doesn't matter.
I mean, somebody who's got who's got 500 hoursof really good training, it's completely
different than somebody who's just beengrinding around in the right seats and, you
know, earning 1500 hours.
(31:27):
So that the variety of experience is becoming alittle bit more narrowed, and that's my
concern.
It's those variables that you don't maybe havewhen you get into that cockpit, and then you've
got that weird anomaly that happens.
Right?
We don't have that variety of experience.
So, I gosh.
If you look at our safety safety record foreverything, you know, airlines and business
(31:48):
aviation, we are just at the pinnacle rightnow, but we can always do better.
And I I'm I always fear that our complacencynow is what's gonna get us.
So because we are so safe, we kinda let downour guard.
So, you know, the the person coming right offthe flight line who's freshly trained even they
don't if they don't have that much experience,but they're coming out of training, they're
just you know, the pathway to the thatknowledge is much more clear.
(32:11):
So watching the retirement numbers not matchingwhat's coming into the industry, we need to do
a lot better job enticing people in.
Boy, when I first started, people were payingto sit in the right seat of a King Air.
Right?
And so we're seeing a shift of that, andthat's, of to make a wish for past, present,
(32:34):
and future.
I would at the end of the day, aviation isabout making money.
Pilots, we forget that, you know, but we needto make money.
But how do you do that safely?
So, you know, I it would be so much better ifthe the accountants and the decision makers
could spend a day with a pilot, even one dayfrom beginning until end, and just seeing what
(32:54):
those challenges look like.
And I still remember when I was working at theairlines, they, decided not to give us bottled
water, and they were trying to save money, onwater.
And so, you know, the example I gave is, youknow, if you're departing, I I used to do the
Minneapolis to Cancun turn.
We'd leave at 5 o'clock in the morning.
(33:15):
Nothing's open at the airport.
You know, to even get a cup of water or acoffee, is hard, and they're like, well, drink
out of the water tanks in the airplane.
And I'm like, alright.
I'll tell you what.
I'll show you what those tanks like look like.
I'll give you a cup of that water.
You tell me how safe you think that is to haveyour pilots drinking that water.
So really simple things like that, you know,are have always been out of the conversation.
(33:40):
So it'd be wonderful if every airline, everypart 135 flight department had their executives
come and spend a day with their their teammembers, you know, every year and just see what
that look like.
That's that's brilliant.
I had an incident not too long ago where wewere delayed for quite some time.
And one of the things that we were talkingabout about sitting in an airplane and waiting
(34:04):
is as or more fatigued operating the aircraft.
The only people who know that are crew members.
Nobody understands that.
I'd be like, well, you're just sitting therenot doing anything.
It's like you have to actually experience itbefore you say anything because it is truly
I've in the military happened to me all thetime.
(34:26):
And now it's happened a couple of times, not alot, but it's happened a couple of times in the
on the civil side.
And when you sit and wait, it I would for mepersonally, it's more fatiguing than actually
operating the aircraft.
Going out and doing my job, waiting to do myjob is much more challenging than it is just to
go operate.
And to have somebody experience that with youwould change their perspective instantaneously.
(34:50):
They would, holy cow, that we're putting peoplein this position and they don't understand that
until they actually experience.
I could not agree with you more.
I wish there was somebody.
Maybe I'll figure out somebody to write andtell them, hey, let's get them up, sit them in
the jump seat.
They can enjoy sitting and waiting for 3 hoursbefore you actually go anywhere and tell me
(35:11):
that you're not tired and and see how you feel.
So I think, I'm all on board.
Let's let's start a campaign, a petition,whatever it takes.
If you have the opportunity, we'll go back inthe in the time machine here or or advice for
new upcoming aviators or anybody kind of acrossthe aviation timeline and spectrum.
But if you could go back and talk to yourself,younger Erica, what would you say to her to
(35:36):
maybe give yourself a little bit of an edge, anadvantage, or or something where you could de
stress or deep make it a little less anxietyridden at times throughout your career?
What would you tell her?
Oh my gosh.
She wouldn't listen.
That's the thing.
Yeah.
I I know that.
Yeah.
Me too.
Same here.
But, truly, the conversation I know this soundsjust weird, but so my students that are in the
(35:59):
classroom and they're 17, 18 years old, tryingto tell them and have a conversation saying,
you know, you probably are gonna get marriedand have kids, and they'll all say, oh, hell
no.
Right?
You don't see yourself doing that because inthat moment when, oh my gosh, when you wanna be
a pilot, it is everything.
Right?
But then you move through your career and andthen it happens.
(36:22):
You do get married.
You do have kids, and we don't spend enoughtime preparing these kids to understand all the
weight that comes with that and having thatconversation beforehand.
So just putting that, at least, that idea intotheir minds to have that conversation and to
look at your potential partner, to have a trueconversation of what that really would look
(36:44):
like if you decide to have kids.
You know, you can talk about it, like, youknow, contextually, but to actually have a a
really deeper conversation.
So it's a fluffy thing that's on the side, but,you know, have we always talk about that work
life balance.
First of all, you are never gonna have a goodwork life balance.
It's it's always gonna be teeter totter inaviation.
(37:05):
It will be feast or famine, and it's gonna be,like, you know, the extremes of those things.
So don't have an expectation coming into it.
And if you don't, then, you know, have a honestconversation with yourself on what makes you
happy.
I flew cargo.
I flew hazmat.
I flew air ambulance.
There are all these other things.
(37:26):
Like, I still remember, like, 2 o'clock in themorning, I'm flying cargo with somebody who he
says he goes, I'm not a night owl.
He goes, I you know, this is really hard forme.
I hate what I'm doing.
It's just completely unhappy.
I'm thinking, well, why the hell are yousitting here at 2 o'clock in the morning?
Change that because you do have options.
So, and be willing to flex as you grow in yourcareer.
(37:49):
A lot of people will get stuck in their rut.
And, you know, I I ran into an airline pilot acouple weeks ago who mid career, like 40 years
old, decided to come back and get a Gulfstreamjob from the airlines.
He had just made it to captain, but and hecouldn't figure out why he was so unhappy, and
he's like, you know what?
I thought about what my happiness looked like.
(38:09):
And I he left this really nice salaried,secured job to come back into business aviation
because at the end of the day, it wasn'tfulfilling his passion.
And so being willing to look at that and, makea change, it's really hard to do.
But, I wish more people would take a look at itbecause we're not encouraging the next
generation.
So
(38:30):
You you are speaking my language.
Every year at TPNX, I start off the whole thingwith this speech, and I've actually been told I
talk too long, shockingly.
But the, the the thing I say to everybodywalking there, a lot of military transitioning
people, open your aperture because what youthink is what going to make you happy, whole
or, career, career, satisfaction, monetary, thewhole, the list, the gamut.
(38:56):
I tell them routinely, open your aperture andsee what else is out there.
You never know what might be right for you orright for your timing with your life.
So take a look because the dream job at Unitedmay not be the dream job for you.
It could be for somebody else, but it might notbe yours.
And when I see somebody, when that light bulbgoes on and it clicks and they actually go and
(39:18):
do that, it happens often that they realizethat, nope, that that's not the job I want.
And and it tends to be the older, moreexperienced aviator who's able to discern that.
It's very hard when you're 25 years old.
They go, wait a second.
A, a wide body captain's making half a$1,000,000 a year.
I think I want that job.
You know, that's that's tough to tough to lookpast.
(39:41):
But for somebody who's a little older whounderstands or who has a little bit of money
put away or whatever the case is, they have anunderstanding that there's other things out
there that may make them much more, whole as aperson.
And and I could not agree with you more.
I think is light and fluffy as some people liketo put it out as the reality is, is I think
it's the most important piece of the wholeaviation circle of life.
(40:04):
If you can support what you want to do and whatyou need to do at home by going to work at a
job that you love, the work life balance isit's a nonissue because you're you're happy at
both.
You're happy both counts.
And, I think I found my niche.
I hope I have.
We'll see in 10 years.
That's what I always tell people.
They're like, hey, I go happy right now, butask me in 10 years might all be different.
(40:27):
Mhmm.
I I I we could talk.
I I wish we could go back because there's somany more stories, that I wanna hear from you.
And hope maybe we can do this in the future.
We can just shoot the breeze with aviationstories in our in our our past.
But the the the kind of the the the wrap up isI wanted to ask you is you're you're doing this
teaching stuff.
You you've written a book.
(40:49):
You're active in aviation.
You're active in the whole construct of it all.
Do you have any future projects or anythingthat we should know coming out?
Or or how can people, kind of get more involvedwith with what you're trying to do and how
you're trying to bring this educational pieceof safety, human factors and bring aviation,
keep aviation so safe and and an enjoyableexperience.
(41:13):
Maybe not always for the passengers, but for usaviators.
It's it's a great job.
It's a wonderful life to to live if this iswhat you want to do.
What do you have going on in the future to tokeep that going and and that we can share with
you and and and hopefully support your, supportyour ambitions?
Yeah.
I I kind of fell into this weird little,pathway of aviation and going out and be
(41:36):
educating, not just pilots, but the public too.
You know, if you empower them with knowledge,they're much better passengers.
So, yeah, I've definitely been working on that.
But one of the things over the last coupleyears that's been happening, just kinda
naturally and even, the example I can give is,Bombardier has a big safety stand down, and
they have been focusing on bringing in emergingleaders, which I love.
(41:59):
So they're reaching out to colleges and flightflight schools and bringing in some other new
upcoming pilots and coming bring them into theindustry with all these executives and, people
who've been in the industry for years andbringing that mix in there.
So I've been trying to purposely set aside timeevery week to help mentor and answer questions
because there is that such disconnect forsomebody who like, even your young daughters
(42:23):
who think, oh, maybe I wanna get into aviation,but it's just, you know, feels like such a long
grasp to actually have somebody to talk to injust 1 hour could make all the difference in
somebody's life.
And if I could do that with 1 hour, mygoodness.
So I've been clearing my schedule a coupledays, a week, couple hours, and just, taking a
little bit more time for people that do emailme and answer ask a question.
(42:46):
I'll actually to say, okay.
Let's let's schedule a phone call.
And they're like, my phone actually rings, andI can talk on it.
So, you know, so making that connection.
So they have that thing, that person that, youknow, is there to ask a question as they as
they decide to make this decision and step intoit.
So, I mean, if we could all do that just for 1hour every month, just think how much of a
(43:08):
better world this would be if we could justreach back and do that.
It doesn't take that much time.
You know?
What the heck?
I'd be, you know, doing something other stupidanyway, so might as well do something
worthwhile with it.
So definitely trying to do that.
I love the analog idea.
Well, that's something that we're really bigon.
Get away from get into the analog.
Erica, thanks again.
How can people reach you?
(43:28):
How can people find you?
How can people support what you're doing?
Yeah.
I'm on social media as a chick in the cockpit.
You can track me down there.
Of course, on LinkedIn, you can always, emailme there.
Otherwise, Erica, e r I k a.
Yeah.
That's a good Swedish way of writing it.
Erica atachickinthecockpit.com.
You can ask your questions.
You know, it might take a couple days if I'm onthe road, but I will get back to you.
(43:52):
Well, we we truly appreciate you at the PolyNetwork for what you're doing and bringing
aviation to a much broader scope of individualsand making better passengers because a lot of
us, we need that out there.
I I try my best, but I don't have nearly thereach you do.
So I do onesie twosie here and there.
Thanks again for joining us.
We appreciate what you're doing at the pilotnetwork, Brit at large.
(44:14):
Hopefully, maybe we we TPNX is in Minneapolisin April.
We'd love to have you up there.
We'll we'll set aside a little booth for youand, and give you a give you a chance to speak
to all our folks.
So thank you again for joining us.
And everybody out there, as we always say, youknow, hit us up at the hey, guys at
palletnetwork.com if you got any questions,comments, concerns, complaints, critiques, you
(44:35):
wanna get a hold of Erica and you forgot howto, go to the show notes and find her links,
reach out to us.
We'll get you in touch.
And as always, keep the shiny side up, thegreasy side down.
Fly safe,
Hey, network.
What's going on?
I just got done recording an awesome podcastwith Erica Armstrong.
She is the author of a chick in the cockpit, mylife up in the air.
But that's just one small piece.
She has a very interesting journey of goinginto business aviation, then leaving it for the
part 121 world, getting furloughed, and thengoing back into business aviation and sticking
(00:37):
around there, which is something that we don'talways hear a lot about.
I found it to be fascinating because I don'tknow if I could ever do that.
I think if I got furloughed, I'd just say, oh,I'm done with this.
I gotta find something else to do with my life.
This aviation gig ain't for me.
Erica didn't do that.
She found a whole new aspect of aviation to getinto where she teaches a lot about human
(00:59):
factors, safety stuff, all the things that wefind interesting that are the analytics of
aviation, and we touch briefly on a lot of thisstuff.
Her work at Metropolitan State University inDenver, where she's taught people from brand
new out of high school kids to longtimeveterans in the military returning into
aviation or trying to get into the aviationside of things.
(01:21):
So, she we run the whole gamut of theprofessional, the personal.
She is a wonderful human being and somebodythat I really enjoyed spending some time with.
I actually would love to have her come up tothe pilot network experience in Minneapolis.
Her engaging personality is something that weneed more of in aviation.
(01:42):
She has a huge following on LinkedIn.
Go check her out there.
She's all over the social media channels.
But first let's listen to her chat on the pilotnetwork podcast.
I hope you enjoy.
Erica, thank you so much for joining us today.
This is something after I saw your profile onLinkedIn, I had to reach out and I was blown
(02:03):
away that you responded so quickly.
And also you, as a side note to all thelisteners out there, Erica, who is one of the
most popular people on LinkedIn, with aviationand aviation parallel stuff, was the fastest
response and the easiest scheduling I've everdone in throughout the podcast history.
(02:26):
Through through some time, she's like, yep.
Okay.
Perfect.
And I was like, holy cow.
This is, I wish there was all like this, butit's not.
But thank you so much for joining, the, thepilot network podcast.
Let's jump right in.
Let's let's let's knock out some of yourbackground because you have you're you have an
interesting story and how you got to where youare today.
(02:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Anytime I get to talk about aviation, I'mthere.
So I'm a, you know, aviation geek at my core.
So absolutely.
So, yeah, I'll give you my, my entire, aviationcareer in under a minute.
I've been in it for about almost 35 years nowon both sides of the cockpit door.
I started off in business aviation, which a lotof people don't know about that sector of of
(03:08):
the industry.
So I spent many years learning all sorts ofthings on that side of it, not just the flying
side, but also the business side.
And then because I lived in Minnesota, I wenton to Northwest Airlines.
And then when they got bought out, by DeltaAirlines, we all got furloughed, and so I've
been back in business aviation again.
So it's been really fun to go into the industryand the, business aviation go out and then come
(03:33):
back in again.
So I'm on the training side, and, seeing howmuch has changed and the culture changed.
So, yeah, it's been a fascinating journey.
It that's such an normally, it's the other wayaround.
Right?
Like, a lot of people start in businessaviation.
They get their first, you know, low time gig,then they move on to a corporate job, maybe a
lower level or a lower paying corporate gig.
(03:54):
With that goal of getting to a major carrier, alegacy carrier.
And you did the inverse.
What was that like?
First of all, the furlough was probably, likemost people, not a fun time and fairly
devastating.
But what was that like to go from the scheduledpart 121?
It's the same thing.
You're doing the same kind of thing every day,day in, day out.
(04:16):
You've got your whole career laid out in frontof you to stepping back into a world that you
had left.
And now you're going back into this againsaying, well, okay.
I guess this part of my life is over.
Were you were you certain that you're gonna dothat for the rest of your career, or was this
more of a, hey.
This is just gonna pass the time, and I'll, youknow, I get get done with this furlough?
(04:37):
Well, you you hit on the keyword furlough.
And so, you know, the aviation industry hasreally stabilized over the last few years,
really.
We don't have that many more mergers.
It's just not that possibility.
And when I was in business aviation, of course,my goodness, I had been, you know, transition
and lateral moves because aircraft gets sold,companies shut down their flight departments.
(05:00):
There's a lot of instability there.
So, I have learned how to roll with it, andthat's what I you know, that's the best advice
you can give to anybody who's gonna come intothis industry, especially if you don't jump
right into the regional and airline route.
But and you also hit the key point too and thedifferences between the two sectors.
The airlines, when I I mean, I had 6 bases in 2years, but it's always the same thing.
(05:25):
You know?
I was based in Detroit, and so I'm flying toSaint Louis and Dallas.
And, you know, it's it was such a contrast.
It was such a rude awakening coming frombusiness aviation where I am flying to
Australia and going to Aspen and Vail and thevery, you know, challenges in business
aviation.
You just they're so different than, the airlineworld.
(05:46):
So, when you ask somebody what it means to be apilot, it's really different for the airlines
versus business aviation.
So it is a different mindset and perspective onthose, and, I I appreciate that I've had this
opportunity because it wasn't necessarily, youknow, my choice.
I had just gotten a new captain job on acitation, and, I had been sent to school.
(06:10):
I had to go jump in the pool, do all the rafttraining and everything.
And the very first phone call I got was saying,hey.
Guess what?
We just sold the airplane.
So I thought, okay.
I'm at enough hours now.
Well, I'm gonna take a look at the airlines,and sure enough, I sent the application over to
Northwest Airlines and got hired in as a flightengineer on the 727.
(06:30):
And, of course, you're bummed because nowyou're not gonna even be flying the airplane,
but that is where my fascination for aircraftsystems got started.
So in the moment, you don't realize you aregonna change your whole life path based on
something that you didn't intend to do, butthis is a good example of, you know, not being
happy with the choice, but being so thankfulfor it later on.
(06:53):
Let's step back a second.
I wanna know what sparked you to get intoaviation because that is we all have that, you
know, the I love origin stories.
This is my favorite type of movies.
So how did that what was your origin story?
So I found aviation completely by accident, andthat's why I'm so purposeful in trying to get
the word out, especially to young women becauseit's just not something that you even think
(07:17):
about.
It wasn't, you know, in your mindset.
And you don't have that tipping point where youthink, well, I know a woman who was a pilot.
So growing up, I didn't know of a single womanpilot except, of course, Amelia Earhart.
Right?
So I was in college at the University ofMinnesota, not quite sure what I wanted to do.
And, I already had 2 jobs and I was justlooking for another job that fit in with my
(07:39):
schedule.
And, of course, airports have really crummyhours because they're open all the time.
So I truly got started because of a job openingthat had really crummy hours.
So I started off working at the front desk of aFBO at the Flying Cloud Airport.
Walked in the door.
Didn't even know there was such a thing as aphonetic alphabet.
(07:59):
I still remember my first day.
They sat me down.
They're showing me the Unicom radio, and I wasjust terrified of who I would be talking to,
and they had ground control.
It was a towered airport.
So listening to tower and ground and just notknowing who are these voices from space are and
who I'm talking to.
So it's just it's so overwhelming at first.
(08:20):
But I'm so thankful I came in that side andjust started learning the industry, talking to
the people.
Aviation draws on such very specificpersonality types.
They're so fascinating and interesting, and, Ijust I loved it that it has its own language
and smell.
And, I mean, every time I smell, like, dieselfuel and kerosene, I mean, it just puts me
(08:42):
right back onto the ramp in Minnesota.
And, and it's, it's just such a fascinatingindustry.
And most people don't realize there's all theseother aspects to it.
You know?
Everybody thinks airline world.
Right?
And that very, you know, straightforwardpathway through, but there's so many things
that are expanding now.
So that's why I love bringing what I've learnednow back to the next generation and just
(09:04):
starting off even, like, with the the trainingand stuff.
We've learned so much now about human factorsand human behavior.
I love taking all that research and analyticsand bringing it back right to the very
beginning and training pilots.
I mean, when when were you ever trained in yourown brain and how you react during, startle
moments?
(09:24):
I was never trained that.
And it's the key in an accident, situation, athought process.
So, you know, now that I've seen the trainingin 135 part 91, 121, all the 145 training, I
can take all of that information, process it,and bring it back to the next generation.
(09:45):
Talking about the next generation.
Well, before we do that, so I wanted to mentionthe radio thing.
I remember when I was in pilot training, thefirst time I ever heard I I had to make a radio
call.
I not good, which is funny because now I talkinto a microphone a lot outside of flying
airplanes.
And I remember the instructor said to me, yes,the brain to disconnect switch.
(10:09):
And I had no idea.
I was like, what is it?
So, yeah, totally get what you're saying.
So and for all of the newbies out there, thefirst time you click the call button or you the
push to talk button, it will disconnect yourbrain.
It will, ridiculous.
And it's okay.
You'll get better at it.
Trust me.
There's some who don't.
(10:30):
And, they you will be ridiculed endlesslythroughout your career.
But it's it's all in fun.
It's all what we do.
Moving on to that thing where you talked about,how you you saw Amelia Earhart.
You know, that was the only woman you reallysaw in aviation.
Did you have a specific mentor role model,especially, when we're getting into the
analytics and that detail oriented piece of howto train better more accurately, and how to
(10:55):
train that human factor side, which issomething that is is fairly new.
I mean, you know, the last 20 years, it'sreally come about, but it's still really new.
And some of the old heads in aviation, they'restill almost reluctant to that change, or or
they've been slow to adopt it because it ischallenging.
It's kind of like in sports where now a lot ofit's analytic based instead of gut feel.
(11:18):
So was there a certain mentor or role model whokinda shifted the way you thought or or or
inspired you or both of those things?
I did.
You know, people ask me quite often, like, youknow, who would I admire?
And these are people you would never know.
And once again, in that moment, you didn'trealize how much they were affecting you.
But when you were asking that question, I couldthink of a few people that popped into my head,
(11:40):
but I'll I'll I'll pull out one of them, onlybecause I remember seeing when I saw when I had
my sim training on the 727, if I saw his nameas the instructor, I would just start sweating
just seeing his name on there because I knew.
But yeah.
So good old Bert Anderson in the simulator.
So when you come in, you pretty much have adefined set of sequence that you're gonna do.
(12:02):
You know you're gonna go and do b one cuts, andyou're gonna do an engine failure here and
there.
I mean, you you go into the simulator basicallykinda knowing what you're gonna do, but not
Bert, man.
He would he would go in there and, generally,especially in business aviation, you don't even
have more than one, systems failure.
But, boy, Bert would go in there and, you know,we do all these things we have to do for the
(12:23):
operating specifications.
Right?
We do all the basic training.
But then he would get to the end, and you justyou could feel yourself starting to sweat
because it was gonna be just chaos.
He would add in all these layers of, failuresin the aircraft.
And, of course, the you know, on the 727, thelast thing would happen was all 3 engines would
be shut down.
You couldn't do a restart, and you had to buythe beer if you couldn't get back to the
(12:46):
airport.
You know?
So at the time, nobody liked it, and we alwayshated it because your job is on the line every
time you go into that simulator.
Right?
And so we did appreciate all these challengesthat we're putting out there, but, boy, I tell
you what.
He made me really dig in and understandaircraft systems and not just how they work,
but how they fail and how if one fails, how itaffects all the others.
(13:10):
But it also taught me how to elevate the wayyou are looking at a situation.
You know, pilots, their their strengths andweaknesses are the same double edged sword.
A pilot has much more ability to think threedimensionally and pull in a whole variety of
information at one time and process it and thendo one response with, you know, moving a yoke
(13:34):
or a stick.
That's pilots don't even realize they're doingit, but think about it instrument approach.
You're bringing in, like, 7 different forms ofinformation at one time, and you don't even
have to think about it.
Like, my best friend, when I'm in the car withher, if she has to read a street sign, she has
to turn down the radio.
Right?
So there's a specific skill set, but that allgoes away during a moment of stress.
(13:56):
You human instinct is you get tunnel vision.
You focus on one situation.
So what he was doing was learning us learningteaching us how to pull back and try to handle
a situation.
So at that point, we were off a checklist.
There was no checklist for what was happening.
So it I mean, you have that moment of just purepanic because you just you really don't know
(14:17):
what to do, but it's a good way of practicingin a safe environment, chaos training.
And then at that moment, which one is the mostimportant?
So when I think back of all the mentors, heunknowingly really, set a pathway forward for
me, and, I I appreciate what he did.
But But at the moment, we did not like seeinghis name on the schedule.
(14:38):
Yeah.
That I think that goes for a lot of us.
We we all have one of those in our in our inour career somewhere along the line.
I think one of the things that you're talkingabout, the challenges that you face
specifically with Burton and how he threw allthis stuff at you.
What were in in the more, I guess, in in theparlance of aviation, the 35,000 foot view?
(15:00):
What were some of the biggest challenges thatyou faced?
Part of it being okay, male dominated crewfelt, especially when you started.
I mean, it's a little different today, notmuch, but a little different.
But back when you started completely different,what were some of the challenges you faced in
in that aspect?
And then just some of the own personalchallenges because aviation is rough for some
(15:21):
of us.
I mean, I started out when I was in pilottraining.
I got told, hey.
You fly the airplane flying, but your braindoesn't work quickly enough to to process the
And I had to I had to I had to shift the way Ithought about entering, just walking into the
flight room that day because it was no longer,hey.
I got the hands, but I don't have the I don'thave the mental speed to catch up with the
(15:43):
aircraft.
What were some of those challenges that youfaced both as a woman, a little bit, but just
personally that you had to deal with as yougrew into aviation and were learning the the
the trade?
Yeah.
It's a great question, and we're all gonna haveour own unique experiences going with going
into it.
Right?
You know, for somebody who wants to to fly andbe a pilot, I I would always forget that I'm
(16:08):
the only woman in the room, which was great forme, but it was always, like, shocking to me
when somebody would push back just because Iwas a woman.
Right?
So it and like you said, it's it's learning howto have some really thick skin.
Even right now, I'm sorry, but you have got tobe able to let it roll off of you.
If you did not learn the the power of humor,you cannot make it through.
(16:31):
I'm just telling you, you need to have go goinginto it, you have to have that knowledge.
I I've met a lot of women who drop out and, youknow, come out of the industry with a lot of,
you know, reason to blame other people for it.
Right?
The misogynists I met, they're they're they'refew, but they're mighty.
But if you look at those people, they aren'tjust doing it to you.
(16:54):
They're doing it to everybody.
They're generally, they have some emotionalintelligence problem that they're working
through.
So you have to remember not to take itpersonally.
And, ironically, the biggest discriminator Iever had was actually a woman, leader who owned
a company who, had hired me to be a pilot, buthad me working in the office.
(17:16):
And, so 6 months later, I still hadn'tscheduled a trip yet and got my training.
And she's like, well, look.
She's like, our clients, they wanna see Adamapp Adam's apple up in the cockpit.
And they just she just said, I didn't think ourour our clients would be comfortable with the
woman.
So, it was always shocking to see it come fromthat side.
(17:36):
But there's a lot of long held beliefs, that,need to be changed.
And it just takes time.
Generationally, that's that's the biggest thingthat's happening right now.
It's just seeing more women so the nextgeneration sees those women.
The best ex example I can give you is when mykids were little.
I have 2 girls.
They're both in college now.
(17:57):
But we were in line at the grocery store, andthere was a pilot in front of us.
He had his epaulettes off, but in his pocket,and he could tell he was coming back from a
trip.
And I had a huge family cart full of groceries,and he had a basket.
And I said, let's let this gentleman go first.
And my daughter who is impatient, she asked,like, why are you doing that?
I said, well, he's a pilot, and he's justcoming back, and he's really tired.
(18:20):
And she stopped and looked at him and thenlooked at me, and she's like, well but, mommy,
do they let boys fly airplanes too?
So right?
So there's a perspective for you out of theminds of babes.
Right?
But they'll grow up with that idea and thatthat image, so they don't think twice.
So, it it's getting better.
But I just don't think the personality typewill you'll ever see that many women flying in
(18:43):
the cockpit, not because they can't, butbecause the personality that comes into this
industry, just doesn't align align with a lotof women.
It's something that I I see when I fly with thenumerous amount of people that I've flown with
in my career.
One of the issues that I always had, especiallywhen I was an instructor, you said, let let,
(19:04):
you know, kind of what off a duck's back?
That's kind of because I I I was actuallyfairly thin skinned when I when I first
started.
Some people would say I still am, but I had tolearn quickly that if you don't tighten tighten
up your game and you don't grow a thick skin,you're not gonna make it very far.
One of the things that I've I've noticed was orI've I've seen lately is the the thinner skin
(19:27):
individual that's out there who cannot take acriticism or has a hard time dealing with their
own personal failures, they tend to internalizea lot of that, and they let those things
compound and it becomes more of a challenge notonly to get better at your craft, especially
when you're new, but later in your career justto do the job because you're you're mentally
(19:50):
beating yourself up.
You're challenged all the time.
And this goes women or men.
It doesn't really matter.
And I think when when you see that kind ofthing, you wanna help them.
But at the same point, you gotta know yourbalance and where to overstep, especially when
you're just 2 first officers or 2 captains orwhatever, and you're not, you know, the person
in in authority, a line check airman orinstructor type in the military or whatever the
(20:12):
case might be.
So I think you've nailed on a lot there wherenot being put in the position to go do what it
is you wanted to do, where you were told bythat woman, hey, you you don't get a trip.
They want to see an Adam's apple up front.
I think one of the things, that we're we're,you know, we're trying to change that narrative
(20:32):
across the board, where, hey, you can fly anairplane, let's go fly it together.
And because we're all in this together,especially in the crew crew environment.
And for those single seat folks out there, youstill got a wingman and you still got to go.
You got you got to fly the airplane correctly.
I think when when you combine all theexperiences that you've had and and you you you
(20:54):
learn from these, Is that what drove you?
And, Erica's got a book called, a chick in thecockpit, my life up in the air.
It's, this personal professional narrative, youknow, you, you, like you mentioned earlier,
incorporates a lot of humor.
You talk about, your vulnerabilities, which Ithink is a huge thing about developing a thick
(21:16):
skin when you finally own up to your mistakesand you say, yeah, that's me.
That's on me.
Right?
Like that.
It's hard to do that when you first learn to dothat.
It's really empowering.
So you you you take all these experiences andyou write this memoir.
Were were you trying at this point, were yougoing, okay, I wanna bring in the analytics and
(21:40):
the safety side of it.
Were you were you trying to meld all thattogether?
Or was or is this just a, hey.
Nobody else is really doing this yet, or Ihaven't seen one of these.
I'm gonna write this book because I'm deathlyafraid of writing because I just don't have the
stamina to sit down and on.
How did you decide to okay.
I'm gonna sit down and do this.
Was this to bring out that analytic piece inthe safety side of things, or was it more, you
(22:05):
know what?
I just wanna I I wanna write.
I wanna tell my story.
Yeah.
So, this will sum it up.
If you read the book, you'll know why I readthe book or why I wrote the book.
I have been in the same book club for 22 yearsnow.
I've been always been an avid reader.
I love writing.
When I was commuting, I used to read a book aweek.
(22:27):
And and don't tell anybody, but, you know, evenwhen you're sitting up at, at altitude on
autopilot, so once in a while, we'd, you know,read a few chapters here and there because, my
goodness, you really want a pilot to be awakeand alert and attentive.
So great way to pass a little bit of time.
So I've always loved the power of the word.
It can be used in such great ways.
It's it's such a powerful platform and peopledon't read that much anymore, unfortunately.
(22:52):
So, I definitely wrote it to bring people intoaviation with me.
We have a lot of books about written aboutwomen in aviation or even men in aviation, but
not a lot of people have written from theirpoint of view.
So I kinda wanted to just bring people in.
And I I've been in the the span of time whereit's been changing rapidly.
(23:14):
Seeing much more a lot more women come in, butdefinitely entering in when there was not a
single woman.
I still remember going to, like, the firstsafety stand down conference, with 500 people,
and of that, only maybe 30 women in the room.
So I'm seeing those numbers get better.
And having more imagery coming out, of ofhaving, you know, women in this industry, but
(23:39):
having an honest conversation about thedifferent challenges.
Getting in aviation is extraordinarily hard formen and women across the board.
So that's part of it, but being a pilot is allencompassing.
It's not like going to an office job and you'veyou leave it behind.
You become a pilot.
Everything you do and live and breathe, isbased on your profession, and there's not many
(24:02):
that are like that.
So it's gonna affect your family.
It's gonna affect, how you raise children and,you know, having your kids understand why you
can't be there for Christmas.
So, try to bring in all the social challengesas well as the industry itself.
That is a, uniquely refreshing piece.
It's something that we talked about, before hestarted is the how the family aspect of this is
(24:24):
so important.
It's I mean, to to most pilots who have afamily, we we I don't even know if it's a joke
anymore.
It's the reality paid from for being away fromhome.
That's what you get really paid for.
I think, is there to to kinda drill down, isthere one particular chapter or a story that
you told in the book that would really resonatewith the crowd of the pilot network as a whole?
(24:47):
A lot of military transitioning or retiredmilitary or or and I say this, with a big
heart.
The kids that are still flying on active dutywho are, looking forward to that next chapter
after the military is done.
So is there one thing out there that maybe youwould resonate with them really well that that
(25:09):
that you have, that's very personal to you?
Yeah.
So just so you know, my dad's I can't say was.
He is a marine.
Yes.
Miss yeah.
Yeah.
Get that right.
Right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Always.
So but yeah.
He and he's one of my heroes, and he he passedaway not that long ago.
But in we kinda talked about this even beforethe podcast started.
(25:31):
One of the reasons why I got fascinated inpilot training was to help people that were
transitioning from the military into, civilianaviation.
They just don't know what that looks like.
What's that pathway forward?
So in my classroom, when I was teaching atMetropolitan State University in Denver, I
would have a a gentleman that had been inAfghanistan several times who, was wanting to
(25:54):
go back into the military as a pilot.
So they were coming out.
They were using their GI bill to get theircollege education and then coming back into the
military again.
So, it it forced me because I wanted to tolearn how to teach somebody sitting next to a
high school kid, 17 years old, coming out ofhigh school, no world experience.
(26:14):
You know, and how do I teach those 2 people thesame content?
So it it shifted how I presented, information,how I tested on information.
It made me really dig into, human learningmethods and styles and, actually, the best way
to present your knowledge.
You know, our old fashioned rote memorization,multiple choice test way that we've been doing
(26:35):
it for always, is not the best way to do boththe training and the teaching, but it's hard.
It takes time.
So it's a it's a burden on both sides.
But, so that's part of the reason I wanted tobring in the stories and, kinda contrast.
Aviation is really good about learning from ourmistakes.
So, each of the chapters will bring in anexample of a a near miss or a close call, and
(26:58):
then contrasting it with, like, a personalchallenge or experience.
So, try to write it for anybody who'sinterested in aviation.
So you you you touched on something there thatI think is something that I've really adhered
to.
I heard this a couple of years back, maybemaybe now.
Wow.
Time flies when you start thinking backwards.
(27:20):
Right?
So maybe 8, 8 years ago or so, I had a goodfriend, Chris Kresge.
A lot of people in the pilot network know whohe is.
He runs Milt ATP.
He told me that to become a great instructor,you needed to be able to teach a certain topic
5 different ways because you will have aplethora of students in how they learn.
(27:44):
And you have a person like me who learns verywell when somebody yells at you and challenge
you and beats you off the head.
But you'll have somebody else who doesn'trespond to that technique at all, and you have
to figure out everything in between and how toteach that person, and that there's very few
bad students.
There's only there's more bad instructors thanthere are bad students.
(28:06):
So I've really adopted that, and and whatyou're saying is it resonates with me and it
makes me think of, okay.
I I'm on the right path.
I continually am on the right path by byadopting that.
It's and it it applies way more than justaviation.
I look at my kids, and when I gotta teach themsomething, okay, that's not working.
Let's try a different technique.
And I used to not think that way.
(28:27):
Even when I was a brand new instructor, Ithought, okay, this is the way, you learn it.
Yeah.
There's different techniques, but I'll teachthe technique the same way I teach the
technique to everybody.
So I appreciate that.
And I think most of the most instructors outthere, when they get when you get a few hours
under your belt as an instructor, you start tolearn that, okay, there's different ways to
teach the topic.
(28:48):
I think that moves me into the the next thenext phase of of aviation that's out there.
Things are changing.
Things are changing rapidly.
We don't know what it's gonna look like in 5years.
We definitely have no clue what it's gonna looklike in 10 years.
(29:09):
What what do you see in the future tocontinually train pilots and to help us adapt
and work with technologies that are coming out,technologies that are already here too?
What do you think are some of our a biggestchallenges and be some of the things that you
and others like you who are in that world whoinstruct and teach both informally and
(29:32):
formally?
What do you think that we can do to continuallybetter ourselves and keep the safety, not
tradition, the safety excellence that wemaintain as a as a as a professional aviation
culture?
Yeah.
That's such a great question, especially rightnow.
It is exciting and terrifying at the same time.
(29:53):
You know, long range.
The reality is, you know, we're probably lastof the dinosaurs.
Truly, we're you see the technology coming out,and we're a long ways away.
But, boy, the conversation's now moving withunmanned aircraft and drones and UAS and UVA
and all that.
It's it's it's common.
So, you know, but while we've transitionedthrough there, this is why, you know, everybody
(30:18):
complains about the next generation.
But what I see, is the breakdown for maybe theolder generation like me is that communication
with technology because it has made usexponentially safer.
All the automation levels that are added now toaircraft, you know, allows you to be a pilot,
and you are there to, you know, that aircraftis there to speak to you and tell you it it it
(30:41):
it tells you what's wrong with it now.
All the new I was in a Global 6,000 justyesterday, and it's just amazing how much that
information it can give to the pilot.
But we still have to have that basicunderstanding of what is it actually
communicating to you.
That's the that's the gonna be the breakdown.
So, you know, the when I see the challenges ofwhat's happening right now, it's we are losing
(31:06):
pilots in our numbers exponentially.
Right?
So we're trying to run pilots through trainingmuch faster with, you know, less time even
though they they up the timing requirements.
But for me, that doesn't matter.
I mean, somebody who's got who's got 500 hoursof really good training, it's completely
different than somebody who's just beengrinding around in the right seats and, you
know, earning 1500 hours.
(31:27):
So that the variety of experience is becoming alittle bit more narrowed, and that's my
concern.
It's those variables that you don't maybe havewhen you get into that cockpit, and then you've
got that weird anomaly that happens.
Right?
We don't have that variety of experience.
So, I gosh.
If you look at our safety safety record foreverything, you know, airlines and business
(31:48):
aviation, we are just at the pinnacle rightnow, but we can always do better.
And I I'm I always fear that our complacencynow is what's gonna get us.
So because we are so safe, we kinda let downour guard.
So, you know, the the person coming right offthe flight line who's freshly trained even they
don't if they don't have that much experience,but they're coming out of training, they're
just you know, the pathway to the thatknowledge is much more clear.
(32:11):
So watching the retirement numbers not matchingwhat's coming into the industry, we need to do
a lot better job enticing people in.
Boy, when I first started, people were payingto sit in the right seat of a King Air.
Right?
And so we're seeing a shift of that, andthat's, of to make a wish for past, present,
(32:34):
and future.
I would at the end of the day, aviation isabout making money.
Pilots, we forget that, you know, but we needto make money.
But how do you do that safely?
So, you know, I it would be so much better ifthe the accountants and the decision makers
could spend a day with a pilot, even one dayfrom beginning until end, and just seeing what
(32:54):
those challenges look like.
And I still remember when I was working at theairlines, they, decided not to give us bottled
water, and they were trying to save money, onwater.
And so, you know, the example I gave is, youknow, if you're departing, I I used to do the
Minneapolis to Cancun turn.
We'd leave at 5 o'clock in the morning.
(33:15):
Nothing's open at the airport.
You know, to even get a cup of water or acoffee, is hard, and they're like, well, drink
out of the water tanks in the airplane.
And I'm like, alright.
I'll tell you what.
I'll show you what those tanks like look like.
I'll give you a cup of that water.
You tell me how safe you think that is to haveyour pilots drinking that water.
So really simple things like that, you know,are have always been out of the conversation.
(33:40):
So it'd be wonderful if every airline, everypart 135 flight department had their executives
come and spend a day with their their teammembers, you know, every year and just see what
that look like.
That's that's brilliant.
I had an incident not too long ago where wewere delayed for quite some time.
And one of the things that we were talkingabout about sitting in an airplane and waiting
(34:04):
is as or more fatigued operating the aircraft.
The only people who know that are crew members.
Nobody understands that.
I'd be like, well, you're just sitting therenot doing anything.
It's like you have to actually experience itbefore you say anything because it is truly
I've in the military happened to me all thetime.
(34:26):
And now it's happened a couple of times, not alot, but it's happened a couple of times in the
on the civil side.
And when you sit and wait, it I would for mepersonally, it's more fatiguing than actually
operating the aircraft.
Going out and doing my job, waiting to do myjob is much more challenging than it is just to
go operate.
And to have somebody experience that with youwould change their perspective instantaneously.
(34:50):
They would, holy cow, that we're putting peoplein this position and they don't understand that
until they actually experience.
I could not agree with you more.
I wish there was somebody.
Maybe I'll figure out somebody to write andtell them, hey, let's get them up, sit them in
the jump seat.
They can enjoy sitting and waiting for 3 hoursbefore you actually go anywhere and tell me
(35:11):
that you're not tired and and see how you feel.
So I think, I'm all on board.
Let's let's start a campaign, a petition,whatever it takes.
If you have the opportunity, we'll go back inthe in the time machine here or or advice for
new upcoming aviators or anybody kind of acrossthe aviation timeline and spectrum.
But if you could go back and talk to yourself,younger Erica, what would you say to her to
(35:36):
maybe give yourself a little bit of an edge, anadvantage, or or something where you could de
stress or deep make it a little less anxietyridden at times throughout your career?
What would you tell her?
Oh my gosh.
She wouldn't listen.
That's the thing.
Yeah.
I I know that.
Yeah.
Me too.
Same here.
But, truly, the conversation I know this soundsjust weird, but so my students that are in the
(35:59):
classroom and they're 17, 18 years old, tryingto tell them and have a conversation saying,
you know, you probably are gonna get marriedand have kids, and they'll all say, oh, hell
no.
Right?
You don't see yourself doing that because inthat moment when, oh my gosh, when you wanna be
a pilot, it is everything.
Right?
But then you move through your career and andthen it happens.
(36:22):
You do get married.
You do have kids, and we don't spend enoughtime preparing these kids to understand all the
weight that comes with that and having thatconversation beforehand.
So just putting that, at least, that idea intotheir minds to have that conversation and to
look at your potential partner, to have a trueconversation of what that really would look
(36:44):
like if you decide to have kids.
You know, you can talk about it, like, youknow, contextually, but to actually have a a
really deeper conversation.
So it's a fluffy thing that's on the side, but,you know, have we always talk about that work
life balance.
First of all, you are never gonna have a goodwork life balance.
It's it's always gonna be teeter totter inaviation.
(37:05):
It will be feast or famine, and it's gonna be,like, you know, the extremes of those things.
So don't have an expectation coming into it.
And if you don't, then, you know, have a honestconversation with yourself on what makes you
happy.
I flew cargo.
I flew hazmat.
I flew air ambulance.
There are all these other things.
(37:26):
Like, I still remember, like, 2 o'clock in themorning, I'm flying cargo with somebody who he
says he goes, I'm not a night owl.
He goes, I you know, this is really hard forme.
I hate what I'm doing.
It's just completely unhappy.
I'm thinking, well, why the hell are yousitting here at 2 o'clock in the morning?
Change that because you do have options.
So, and be willing to flex as you grow in yourcareer.
(37:49):
A lot of people will get stuck in their rut.
And, you know, I I ran into an airline pilot acouple weeks ago who mid career, like 40 years
old, decided to come back and get a Gulfstreamjob from the airlines.
He had just made it to captain, but and hecouldn't figure out why he was so unhappy, and
he's like, you know what?
I thought about what my happiness looked like.
(38:09):
And I he left this really nice salaried,secured job to come back into business aviation
because at the end of the day, it wasn'tfulfilling his passion.
And so being willing to look at that and, makea change, it's really hard to do.
But, I wish more people would take a look at itbecause we're not encouraging the next
generation.
So
(38:30):
You you are speaking my language.
Every year at TPNX, I start off the whole thingwith this speech, and I've actually been told I
talk too long, shockingly.
But the, the the thing I say to everybodywalking there, a lot of military transitioning
people, open your aperture because what youthink is what going to make you happy, whole
or, career, career, satisfaction, monetary, thewhole, the list, the gamut.
(38:56):
I tell them routinely, open your aperture andsee what else is out there.
You never know what might be right for you orright for your timing with your life.
So take a look because the dream job at Unitedmay not be the dream job for you.
It could be for somebody else, but it might notbe yours.
And when I see somebody, when that light bulbgoes on and it clicks and they actually go and
(39:18):
do that, it happens often that they realizethat, nope, that that's not the job I want.
And and it tends to be the older, moreexperienced aviator who's able to discern that.
It's very hard when you're 25 years old.
They go, wait a second.
A, a wide body captain's making half a$1,000,000 a year.
I think I want that job.
You know, that's that's tough to tough to lookpast.
(39:41):
But for somebody who's a little older whounderstands or who has a little bit of money
put away or whatever the case is, they have anunderstanding that there's other things out
there that may make them much more, whole as aperson.
And and I could not agree with you more.
I think is light and fluffy as some people liketo put it out as the reality is, is I think
it's the most important piece of the wholeaviation circle of life.
(40:04):
If you can support what you want to do and whatyou need to do at home by going to work at a
job that you love, the work life balance isit's a nonissue because you're you're happy at
both.
You're happy both counts.
And, I think I found my niche.
I hope I have.
We'll see in 10 years.
That's what I always tell people.
They're like, hey, I go happy right now, butask me in 10 years might all be different.
(40:27):
Mhmm.
I I I we could talk.
I I wish we could go back because there's somany more stories, that I wanna hear from you.
And hope maybe we can do this in the future.
We can just shoot the breeze with aviationstories in our in our our past.
But the the the kind of the the the wrap up isI wanted to ask you is you're you're doing this
teaching stuff.
You you've written a book.
(40:49):
You're active in aviation.
You're active in the whole construct of it all.
Do you have any future projects or anythingthat we should know coming out?
Or or how can people, kind of get more involvedwith with what you're trying to do and how
you're trying to bring this educational pieceof safety, human factors and bring aviation,
keep aviation so safe and and an enjoyableexperience.
(41:13):
Maybe not always for the passengers, but for usaviators.
It's it's a great job.
It's a wonderful life to to live if this iswhat you want to do.
What do you have going on in the future to tokeep that going and and that we can share with
you and and and hopefully support your, supportyour ambitions?
Yeah.
I I kind of fell into this weird little,pathway of aviation and going out and be
(41:36):
educating, not just pilots, but the public too.
You know, if you empower them with knowledge,they're much better passengers.
So, yeah, I've definitely been working on that.
But one of the things over the last coupleyears that's been happening, just kinda
naturally and even, the example I can give is,Bombardier has a big safety stand down, and
they have been focusing on bringing in emergingleaders, which I love.
(41:59):
So they're reaching out to colleges and flightflight schools and bringing in some other new
upcoming pilots and coming bring them into theindustry with all these executives and, people
who've been in the industry for years andbringing that mix in there.
So I've been trying to purposely set aside timeevery week to help mentor and answer questions
because there is that such disconnect forsomebody who like, even your young daughters
(42:23):
who think, oh, maybe I wanna get into aviation,but it's just, you know, feels like such a long
grasp to actually have somebody to talk to injust 1 hour could make all the difference in
somebody's life.
And if I could do that with 1 hour, mygoodness.
So I've been clearing my schedule a coupledays, a week, couple hours, and just, taking a
little bit more time for people that do emailme and answer ask a question.
(42:46):
I'll actually to say, okay.
Let's let's schedule a phone call.
And they're like, my phone actually rings, andI can talk on it.
So, you know, so making that connection.
So they have that thing, that person that, youknow, is there to ask a question as they as
they decide to make this decision and step intoit.
So, I mean, if we could all do that just for 1hour every month, just think how much of a
(43:08):
better world this would be if we could justreach back and do that.
It doesn't take that much time.
You know?
What the heck?
I'd be, you know, doing something other stupidanyway, so might as well do something
worthwhile with it.
So definitely trying to do that.
I love the analog idea.
Well, that's something that we're really bigon.
Get away from get into the analog.
Erica, thanks again.
How can people reach you?
(43:28):
How can people find you?
How can people support what you're doing?
Yeah.
I'm on social media as a chick in the cockpit.
You can track me down there.
Of course, on LinkedIn, you can always, emailme there.
Otherwise, Erica, e r I k a.
Yeah.
That's a good Swedish way of writing it.
Erica atachickinthecockpit.com.
You can ask your questions.
You know, it might take a couple days if I'm onthe road, but I will get back to you.
(43:52):
Well, we we truly appreciate you at the PolyNetwork for what you're doing and bringing
aviation to a much broader scope of individualsand making better passengers because a lot of
us, we need that out there.
I I try my best, but I don't have nearly thereach you do.
So I do onesie twosie here and there.
Thanks again for joining us.
We appreciate what you're doing at the pilotnetwork, Brit at large.
(44:14):
Hopefully, maybe we we TPNX is in Minneapolisin April.
We'd love to have you up there.
We'll we'll set aside a little booth for youand, and give you a give you a chance to speak
to all our folks.
So thank you again for joining us.
And everybody out there, as we always say, youknow, hit us up at the hey, guys at
palletnetwork.com if you got any questions,comments, concerns, complaints, critiques, you
(44:35):
wanna get a hold of Erica and you forgot howto, go to the show notes and find her links,
reach out to us.
We'll get you in touch.
And as always, keep the shiny side up, thegreasy side down.
Fly safe,
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