May 8, 2025 • 58 mins
J. Ryan Williams spent years leading sales at high-growth startups. Then he quit. Not because he lost faith in sales, but because he realized most founders were doing it backwards.
Product-market fit starts with message-market fit. Say it simply. Say it like an insider. Say it on camera. Then watch everything else get easier.
Highlights include: The Collapse of a Dream (11:00), “Drunks Holding Each Other Up” (22:00), Your Customer’s Customer (39:00), Teaching Through Sales (46:00), and more…
Stay updated with our podcast and the latest insights in Outbound Sales and Go-to-Market Strategies!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Awesome. Welcome back to the Predictable Revenue Podcast. I'm your host, Colin Stewart. Today I'm joined by Jay Ryan Williams. He's the CEO over anti eater, and we are gonna talk about his product market fit story. Before we jump into it, founders, let's be real. Scaling a company can be tough. You're juggling product, revenue, hiring, and a million other decisions. But what if you had a proven framework and expert guidance to navigate the chaos? That's where our predictable revenue coaching programcomes in. Whether you're trying to find your first customers or fine tuning your go-to-market strategy, we're here to help you build a business that scales well predictably. There I said the name of the podcast. Let's get into the episode Collin: j Ryan Williams. I'm excited to have you back. Uh, we were, I was just looking at the, our pre, uh, pre-interview from 2017. It's been too long, my friend. Um, lemme tell the audience a little bit about you. Uh, j Ryan and I go back nearly 15 years. You were
one of my first customers back in the early days. Um, you're now, I mean, you've been, let's call it VP of sales to the Stars sales consultant to some of the fastest growing companies in the world. You've built sales development teams. Sales teams that have produced millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Um, super excited to have you on the show, Jay Ryan, welcome. J. Ryan (01:00):
Appreciate it. It's great to be back. Yeah. 2017 feels like a long time ago, and also not that long ago at the same time. Collin
(02:00):
Yeah. Thanks. Well, that's the short answer is, um, every turn of my career has always been asking like, how do I have more impact? started my career as an educator and I had a school classroom, uh, of sixth and seventh graders, and then I traded that to work at the Boys and Girls Club, where I had about a thousand kids I was responsible for. Later on ran the program that put Boys and Girls clubs into inner city schools in Chicago. That was 17,000 kids that we were affecting. And around that time I went to graduate school, my buddy said. Hey, look, you likeeducation, you like teaching people about computers. Come out to Silicon Valley, teach people how the software works, and then ask 'em for money. It'll be really easy. Um, they were wrong about the easy part, but they were right about how sales is really helping people and teaching people. And that just, I just saw impact there. 'cause I got to see how my work could be quantified. It's really hard to quantify your work when you're thinking about like, a lot of people say like when you're teaching, like it just takes one life and you saved a life and all that
stuff. but it's really hard Collin (03:00):
Hmm. J. Ryan
So I got to watch friends at places like Zendesk and Gigia and others like figure out Collin (04:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
(05:00):
in 2019, um, and, uh, 2018 and 2019, 22 accelerators in 14 countries. And in that work I decided to start making a film about founders from around the world. And here we go, founders from around the world start telling that story. People start saying, I'm having trouble telling my story. My executive coaching clients started asking, you help us with video? And so the arc to to film producer goes through teaching people how to sell and just making an impact. And so I think if that'sthe, you know, for all the like twists and turns in my own career, I just bring it back to, I keep asking like how to make a bigger impact. And I feel like the getting the story right on your startup Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: more important than getting that first customer. So I went from working on like, how do you get your first customer? How do you get your first 10 customers, two. How do you tell the story in such a way that your first customer will actually show up? Collin:
That's really cool. I wanna ask so many questions before I do. J. Ryan (06:00):
I Collin
for the show notes. Collin (07:00):
Cool. Are there any bootleg copies kicking around? I might be able to go find. J. Ryan
company in Portugal, a company in Uruguay, a company in Mexico City Company in, uh, couple companies in New Zealand. One in particular in a little tiny town called Dunedin. Um, they say that they're just two whales away from Antarctica. Um, but we tell, we brought all these stories together and then we told the story of us struggling through Covid to try to build a company. And, uh, the company failed and the film failed. And, um. You know, the partner and I, we only talk every, you know, six months or so Collin (08:00):
or so J. Ryan
dozen founder stories in it. I interviewed Mark Cuban. We spent an hour and 20 minutes together talking strategy, expansion, fund, fundraising. Um, the partner that I mentioned was a big internet company that was, they had big plans for us and, uh, Collin (09:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
And so my wife thought we were doing it for one reason. My partner thought we were doing it for another. I had dreams of something else. My friends, I would tell thought something else. This is a movie that a lot of Collin (10:00):
Hmm J. Ryan
what your role is in the demise of something. It's a lot easier just to blame other people. Uh, and, uh, it's, as I've thought about it more, I realized that I had a really big role in, in Wyatt Field. Collin (11:00):
Uh, that resonates real hard. I mean, looking back at carb, how you and I met each other, um, we went zero to a million in three months in revenue J. Ryan
(12:00):
when we moved from, when we pivoted from voltage to Carb, voltage was a serum company. We had one customer and we'd spent 18 months with one customer and I tried my ass off to get more than one customer and, and failed. And then I, I had read Predictable Revenue, I'd met Aaron, we'd been emailing back and forth and I was like, I was doing that on behalf of other people. And I said, Preston, could we do that but with Voltage? And he's like, yeah, I could hack it together on a weekend. I was like, that would be amazing 'cause I'm doing all this stuffin Google Sheets. And he did the pivot and then like, we had some customers using it. This is, we, we were using it internally and he's like, Hey, the right thing to do here is for me to not just try and make this jank together off the CRM system, it's to start fresh and like, let me get you something in two weeks. That's just. Built specifically to do this one thing as opposed to having, we're only using 5% of the functionality. We've already got all this old code and this, and I said, no, you can't, you can't, we don't have time to rebuild. You
(13:00):
have to just go and move as fast as possible. And that decision came back to bite us in the ass when man, you would, like, in the, in the dark days of carb, you would send, you'd, it was a tool that sent prospect emails. You'd click send, it would take two weeks to send that email. 'cause the server was just so bogged down with requests and queries. Like we had a queue that was literally two weeks long and it, we just couldn't move fast enough. And the alternative was spend $200,000 a month on our AWS bill. Or like we were already spending 20, 30, $40,000 a month onAWS and it's like we could 10 x that and we could get through it, or we could have, I ideally gone back and rewritten that and there were so many opportunities where I could have said, you know what? Let's stop trying to take on more customers. Let's stop trying to push to compete against lead Genius and SalesLoft and Outreach. 'cause they, SalesLoft and Outreach had a calling feature J. Ryan: Mm-hmm. Collin: and we were losing customers because they wanted the phone. I think that's why we lost Checkmate. Or one of the reasons why we lost Checkmate is y'all moved to,
I think it was SalesLoft back in the day and 'cause it had a dialer and I was pushing the team, pushing, pushing, pushing for a dialer. But all the backend stuff, it took us so long to, to push out. We just couldn't keep up. J. Ryan (14:00):
Well, I think we started this conversation on like, let's talk about product market fit and going down a couple paths with that around like talking about language and talking about story. I'd love to tell you more about like what Ander does around video, but you just heat something up that is really fun in that, know many other podcasts where you have a seller founder who feels like he failed with a former prospect, customer founder, who knows exactly what happened. you want to talk more about like, do you wanna dig into this? Collin
I, I like writing through and having to rethink. J. Ryan (15:00):
I'm sorry then. Collin
genius really interesting. At the time that you pivoted to Carb, LeadGenius was still doing outsourced, like, um, uh, Collin (16:00):
like a mechanical turk. J. Ryan
(17:00):
iota cards, which meant that we were travel agents so he could go book at cost to do whatever the heck we wanna do. Um, our youngest, our most junior SDR at that company used his company Perc Bonus and his card to go stay at the nicest hotel in California. Now everybody listening to this has a picture in their head of California and everybody knows that California, like, say what you want about the fruits of nuts, it's, you go out to California coast, like you're gonna have an argument about that not being one of the nicest places in the world.this young man, Charlie went and took his, his, his company, his company, spiff of, of uh, it was like a thousand dollars hotel bill a year. He had to be used by the end of the year. And so he took his girlfriend out to the coast and stayed at this, this amazing place called Post Ranch End, which is at top five hotels in the world, I would bet. Um, at least top 10 in the world. Definitely top two in California. Um. And so he goes out there and they recognize his membership number at the company being that we had previously sent guests there from
the OTA side of the business, the only travel agent side of the business. And so Charlie got an extra night and like a spa kit, all this stuff. I, that's not when you, when you're 23, do not spend that kind of money on your girlfriend. But um, and Collin (18:00):
No. J. Ryan
know of another business that it's that clear sometimes with restaurants and Yelp score matters. Um, sometimes I've also sold to public company CFOs where there's a specific score on what they're, they're trying to return to the street in terms of value. Uh, hard to align yourself, but when your product aligns to the one driver that that person you sell to cares about, Collin (19:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
was doing where the founder asked me to come interview for the VP of sales job. as Checkmate was trying to sell to these hotel GMs, our dead end wasn't the product in the gm, it was actually all these hotels are owned by groups. The Collin (20:00):
Hm. Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
for the jump. I knew I wanted to go from series A to series B as a VP of sales. So I'd watched a mentor do it. Collin (21:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
that there's little pieces of custom data that turn into silver bullets, which is what anybody who's interested in, like finding that silver bullet for prospecting should Collin (22:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
Collin (23:00):
They had the most stable API. Right. Like of anybody back then. J. Ryan
guess. And it wasn't like, I'm not saying I'm amazing for that. It was dumb luck of me not wanting to write a deck or a Collin (24:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
listen to it and tell us whether or not we remember his story. Right. But he's doing big things now for a company that works in the, uh, in, in, uh, helping people solve some of the global warming issues at the like big enterprise software level. Collin (25:00):
I saw that. He's also got the co-founder of Uber, uh, label on his, uh, on his LinkedIn of Uber Freight, I think it was. J. Ryan
basically creating a system of record for all the freight that transfers between the different hands they transfer. Um, Collin (26:00):
Hmm. J. Ryan
matter? Uh, 'cause the things that I should have learned from our engagement, wasn't able to translate to product. A big Collin (27:00):
Fair. J. Ryan
(28:00):
had somebody who was really good at selling those enterprise accounts, and we had to figure out internally about how to, uh, keep them happy. um, it started to work, what happened was the enterprise accounts had way less churn or very high NRR number happening for any company. That was where what we did had an impact over about 50 to a hundred people. so we're talking about eBay and Box and IBM and Google. These were all companies that had tested something and like tasted the productand, because on the enterprise side of things, it was a stable account. The founders who were testing the product, like Checkmate, like I said, they lost, you know, they, they left LeadGenius right after, you know, they left you. So, um, know, a couple years here, a couple years there, or sorry, a few months here and there. So the, but I'll tell you, if I had to put it in one like fortune cookie kind of sentence was something I learned from the board member at LeadGenius. Tim G
he was a, the series A board member. He said startups that sell to other startups. Are drunks holding each other up at a party. And he was absolutely right about that. That's such a good Collin (29:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
(30:00):
uh, other startups that are easy yeses is it gives you this false sense of product market fit. And I think one of the biggest pieces I've learned from the Uber story, from Checkmate, from all the successes and failures from the last 13 years is that the strength of product market fit is a multiplier of your go-to-market efforts. And if you are, if you think your product market fit is strong and you're gonna make all these investments, but it's built that, that opinion of it's strong because I've sold to all these other YC companies that are friendly, that aregonna give me money because we're all part of the cabal, then you're artificially inflating your numbers and, uh, your revenue efficiency isn't gonna come anywhere close to where you think it's gonna be. J. Ryan: and by the way, that's the same thing as fraud. If you go and artificially inflate your numbers, 'cause you own a a group of people all buy each other's product in a little circle. Like, Collin: Hmm. J. Ryan: I don't know how that would be defined, uh, around the world, but I, I don't think that that's good practice. Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: you know,
let's go find the right experimentation. Let's go find the right question to ask. Collin (31:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
people you don't have product market fit. The world will get out and you will ruin your chance to make your next sale or do your next fundraising round. So you gotta go Collin (32:00):
Yep. J. Ryan
Collin (33:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan (34:00):
They do 20 bucks a seat. We sold to the next hotel. We use the first one for social proof. The next hotel is paying the price that we need for it to work. Boom, we proved it. Now the next question might be, could we use a sales strategy like predictable revenue back in the day? I think that might be some, uh, question now about like, how do I get AI to work in here? Well, can I find some efficiencies? Then I go, okay, as a cohort, the next five accounts I sold worked. Is it? 'cause they all have things in common. Think about like a b, a Bingo board. When you look at the people you're selling to, if you're selling to accounts that all have the same bingo squares filled in, sell to a VP of marketing. I need approval from the director of sales because they've got a, like where their leads are coming from and the person who's instrumenting it all might be head of sales ops. Those three people are the same on the same bingo card every time.
If that happens five times in a row, it's kinda like having a hand in cards. That's what Steve and I used to Collin (35:00):
Hmm. J. Ryan
conversation into a very clear experiment. Product market fits not binary, but each individual stages in the sales processes, yes it happened, or no it didn't. Those are clear experiments. They're control group experiments. Just like eighth grade science class, you'll be fine. And as you experiment with that, you're proving that it's working right? And Collin (36:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
to? Who do I wanna Collin (37:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
full hand? Who are all the individuals? Who are the stakeholders? What are the things that they need to do? What are the value, right? Like, what are the values that they care about and how does my product kind of tie to those values? If you can't tie your product to those values, if you can't find out who that full poker cart or full poker hand is, you're J. Ryan (38:00):
yeah. Collin
(39:00):
is customer's, customer. I wanna make sure your guests are happy. I wanna give you software so that you can go serve them and please them. Um, that there's nothing more noble than that. Um, not everything I've sold have had that clear path. When I was selling advertising, I was selling it to an e-commerce manager to retarget somebody to get them to come buy everyone. The only time we talked about your customers customer was like, the people seeing this ad, do you wanna give 'em a coupon? So they really are excited about this. Coupon codes isn't really customer, customerstuff. It's a little bit. Promotions touch that world a little bit, but Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: that's nobody in that flow is staying up at night going, Hmm, how do I get Colin to buy that next pair of socks? Because he really, his feet seem cold. Like they don't care. They're not thinking about that. They're thinking, how do I Collin: No. J. Ryan: buy the next pair of socks? So then I could get my, prove that my promotion work and then figure out where I go from there. Um, you know, and so I. One of the things that's happened for me is talking to enough founders about
sales and revenue coaching with the how to go from early stage to building a business and finding product market fit, or proving that something is working, like proving Collin (40:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
And that led me down this road to say, well, if I had my perfect job, I would want to own all the go-to market. And now we're helping people own their entire go-to-market process, which also includes product market fit, but also the language fit. How do we Collin (41:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
school, she's being hit on by this guy. And I said, what was his pickup line? And uh, 'cause she met him in yoga and I'm like, there's no guy who goes yoga that's not just trying to pick up girls. And she's Collin (42:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
or, uh, or your spouse might complete you, if you will, if you use Jerry McGuire. If we can talk like that and use that language, our prospects will see us as insiders too. Collin (43:00):
It's been since our conversation last week into those listening, um, Ryan and I did a. A recording through Anter where you were walking, Ryan was walking me through how do we get like a, how do we get a chapter of the book down to three minutes, which sounds like in theory it should be easy, you should just feed it to GPT and it'll spit out something meaningful. But it's shockingly hard, even though, even though you could put like the best prompt, Hey, make me sound like Mark Rober and like, cut this down and this and this and that. The what we, uh, we accomplished about 30 seconds in probably an hour. Um, but that's probably the slowest I'll ever take. But the, the clarity that we brought from where I started was here way wide open about, you know, helping founders find first customers. And where we ended up was, you know, somewhere pretty
(44:00):
special where we're not quite done. We got, I still gotta finish that recording. I think I got a good script going, but like where we, where I started compared to where I went, it kind of changed the way I thought about how I was approaching a lot of the content. That I was trying to create and how I've been trying to get the message out and why, you know, looking back over my LinkedIn activity the last couple of months, it's not doing very good and we put a lot of time into this content that doesn't resonate, that doesn't do anything. And that's one of the biggest things that's been frustrating to meis to have this like mediocre content associated with my name and no, no shade to like the folks at PR that are helping me and producing like I a hundred percent own the, the outcome that like it's mediocre because I've made it. I've built a process that generates mediocre content and that's why it's getting mediocre engagement. But I think the thing I appreciated with you is the ability to kind of walk through from like, you know, what is the top level, high level idea of like, what are you trying to get and then how do we make this something that's gonna be, uh, catchy. It's gonna have a strong hook on
(45:00):
social media, and then how do we get to the core message? And I always felt like that's, it's kind of, it's dirtying the art of like producing the content. It makes me feel less authentic, but would I rather be an artist and perfect and write and unknown or would I rather, or do I do myself, do I do my audience a better, a service by, you know, participating in the hooks and really optimizing the message to where they need to hear it so that I get more people in front of that message, which I think can help a lotof founders. But so far I haven't succeeded very much because I've been getting in my own way. J. Ryan: well you come full circle for me because I started my career as an educator where the question was, am I entertainer? That makes social studies interesting for sixth and seventh graders. Uh, you know, they don't really care about history. They don't really care about the writing and the books and the things, the curriculum that was picked by the district or the, or the school. Um, so I've gotta sell that to them.
(46:00):
And, and sales, same thing. Um, doing the client a disservice. I would always tell my sales team back when I first started managing people, and I tell founders this all the time too, somewhere in a conference room, someone's about to be fired unless you email them and tell 'em what your product does. In advertising. We were the first to democratize, uh, the ability to do retargeting ads. And we started by competing with Google. And then we became a platform that served a much bigger market. And, and there were dozens anddozens every day of e-commerce marketing managers who were about to get fired because they hadn't figured out retargeting yet. And our sales team's job was to reach out to them and call them, you know, use our own sales hacking tools to be able to do a mass campaign outreach, which was run outta Google Sheets at the time, by the way. Uh, but um, and then later on at Lead Genius is the same thing, you know, and, uh, and Checkmate same thing. Your customers are are dying to hear from you. Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: the case
(47:00):
of people who wanna read your book, there are people who really wanna read your book. wanna read your book. But they're not, unless you go and get them in your funnel because they might actually, like, if you don't promote your book, you might meet somebody five years from now. Who's pissed. They never heard about it. That actually happened with Aaron's book. I was at a wedding a few years ago and I was telling a founder what I did, working with, you know, founders on sales and, and helping them think about the revenue process. And this guy said, you know, somebody gave me this book the other day. I wish I had10 years ago. It's called Predictable Revenue. And I didn't laugh in his face 'cause I thought, oh, that's how long it takes for books like that to make it to Chicago. um, but it was funny to me that, um, here's this book that the rest of us are, are, have it's the Aaron, but most of us have, Collin: It's old hat now. Yeah. J. Ryan: it's, you know, it's all, it's it's, it's a coffee coaster now, uh, in many ways. 'cause a lot of the market is starting to evolve and change too. Um. But the principles work in certain markets at certain times and places. Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: and that's a pretty cool thing.
And people who are just finding it are having, they're like, oh my God, I found this. You know, I, I, uh, I found the gospel moment, uh, which is great. People will maybe say the same thing about what they're reading from you. I know the part that I've read, it's like, this is spot on. Every founder needs to hear this, but you gotta present it in a way that makes it easy for them to know about it, you know? Collin (48:00):
A hundred percent. I really appreciate that. We went on a little bit of a detour and. Got to go through the whole Checkmate lead genius kind of transition. I originally invited you here to talk a little bit about anteater and tell me the product market fit story. I know we've got the first, the little bit of it. Um, but I'd love to kind of wrap with, tell me a little bit about, you know, what you're doing for clients with Ant Eater. I want to cut right to it 'cause we don't have time. I don't want to take another half an hour of your time or the audience's time to go through the whole story. But walk me through because I found it extremely helpful and um, in just in that first hour conversation that we had, and I know there will be more. Um, but I'm excited to get going with it.
Tell me, for all those that are listening, why should they be excited and why should they be interested in reaching out to, to Jay Ryan to talk about. J. Ryan (49:00):
Yeah, thanks for that. The, the first and foremost is the, the market has moved to organic social content via video. who's selling B2B is going to have pressure to do video. Um, the first stakes were how do you email and do outbound? Then we graduated into making sure Apple Funnel has a lot of content and good content marketing. Now we're to a place where you really need to be doing video and video. That's done by the founder telling the founder story. Why does this company exist? Why did you start this? If you haven't read Founder Brand by Dave Gerhardt, that's a great book to start with. He talks a little bit about the path that you're doing, Colin, of like. Building out a podcast so that you can connect with both prospects as well as people in the community. Um, because you're giving, first, you're doing a service to the industry. I wanna help founders who agree with that and wanna be on that path, that know that if they
(50:00):
give into the industry and to the space that they're selling into, that that will actually return more value. Okay, so level one is you gotta care about who you sell to. Level two is now we gotta go figure out what they want, what type of content will it be helpful for them? for many of us, that's video content. that's a video podcast or a point of view video, or in your case, taking really complicated chapters of books, making them in shorts. And so we help customers build trust their prospects through short formvideo. So trust is about credibility. What you know, reliability. What you do if you're showing up and intimacy how you make them feel. So you may think, okay, well my sister's really good at TikTok, I'll just do TikTok for my company. Well, let's say your company is like Checkmate. You sell to hotel founders. And so now you're doing these TikTok skits about the best hotels in the world or the worst hotels in the world. You know, you start doing skits about like finding a fly in your hotel bed or whatever, uh, uh,
flying, whatever the fly in the soup thing is. Collin (51:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
(52:00):
just think about their dealing with the brand they've never heard of, and now we're to, how do you get somebody to care about that brand they never heard of? We gotta tell 'em we're back to you. Oh, we're backed by Google, or we're backed by Andreesen Horowitz. Now I gotta go raise more money to build a brand. And then series A comes. What do I do? I rebrand. So I wanna get in front of all that and just say like, the founder story is one of the most important things to have out there if you do it in the right way. If you do it through short form video content that connectswith your audience, they can build trust faster than an email or a brand campaign or a direct ad that you're paying for. Now, I know that's incredibly biased, so people please rip me up at the comments. There's other ways to build trust, but if you are thinking that, oh, I know this is, this video's a bad idea, instead I'm gonna go get a speaker slot at a conference. please go do that. And what you'll find is after you give your talk at the conference, 10 people will come up to you afterwards. out a really good LinkedIn post is gonna engage with 10 prospects. At this
stage, at the founder selling stage, Collin (53:00):
Mm-hmm. So J. Ryan
It doesn't build as much credibility as holding up the book that you wrote. Like, you'll get to do that. Sophia gets to do that. Sophia gets to send it to people. Uh, my friend, my friend Jocko, when by Design sent me when I was at Lead Genius. He's like, I wanna train your team. He sent me a coffee table book he wrote that was like fucking huge with big Collin (54:00):
Oh, the that thing's cool. The blueprints. I love that. J. Ryan
trust, these short form video. And we, um, we also have a couple of VCs that see it as a way to share their thesis. So that makes me think we can't be all that wrong if the VCs are thinking this works too. Collin (55:00):
I love it. I can attest as someone who has a camera is speaking into you, into a teleprompter. I've had the desire to do YouTube long form, medium form, short form for years now, and. Yet, you look at our YouTube channel and it's just uploads of this podcast and shorts that we carve up from this podcast. And so I'm excited that we're actually making progress on this. J. Ryan
and dm. Reach out there. Um, happy to connect with folks and talk, and you may be thinking it's like, oh, well I don't wanna reach out if I don't know where I'm at. Reach out. Anyway, I love to help out. I've got some free resource of people on the website. Um, I can send you some guides or, you know, uh, figure out if there's a way that we could just try to be helpful because I have been there. I have turned that camera on. I know the Collin (56:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
go. Exactly. I distorted them all. Um, and some of 'em bought, I was okay at that job, but, uh, but that wasn't my intention was to distort it. It was my intention was just try to be helpful. Collin (57:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
(58:00):
show. Thanks everybodyfor listening. We'll catch y'all next time.
Awesome. Welcome back to the Predictable Revenue Podcast. I'm your host, Colin Stewart. Today I'm joined by Jay Ryan Williams. He's the CEO over anti eater, and we are gonna talk about his product market fit story. Before we jump into it, founders, let's be real. Scaling a company can be tough. You're juggling product, revenue, hiring, and a million other decisions. But what if you had a proven framework and expert guidance to navigate the chaos? That's where our predictable revenue coaching programcomes in. Whether you're trying to find your first customers or fine tuning your go-to-market strategy, we're here to help you build a business that scales well predictably. There I said the name of the podcast. Let's get into the episode Collin: j Ryan Williams. I'm excited to have you back. Uh, we were, I was just looking at the, our pre, uh, pre-interview from 2017. It's been too long, my friend. Um, lemme tell the audience a little bit about you. Uh, j Ryan and I go back nearly 15 years. You were
one of my first customers back in the early days. Um, you're now, I mean, you've been, let's call it VP of sales to the Stars sales consultant to some of the fastest growing companies in the world. You've built sales development teams. Sales teams that have produced millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. Um, super excited to have you on the show, Jay Ryan, welcome. J. Ryan (01:00):
Appreciate it. It's great to be back. Yeah. 2017 feels like a long time ago, and also not that long ago at the same time. Collin
(02:00):
Yeah. Thanks. Well, that's the short answer is, um, every turn of my career has always been asking like, how do I have more impact? started my career as an educator and I had a school classroom, uh, of sixth and seventh graders, and then I traded that to work at the Boys and Girls Club, where I had about a thousand kids I was responsible for. Later on ran the program that put Boys and Girls clubs into inner city schools in Chicago. That was 17,000 kids that we were affecting. And around that time I went to graduate school, my buddy said. Hey, look, you likeeducation, you like teaching people about computers. Come out to Silicon Valley, teach people how the software works, and then ask 'em for money. It'll be really easy. Um, they were wrong about the easy part, but they were right about how sales is really helping people and teaching people. And that just, I just saw impact there. 'cause I got to see how my work could be quantified. It's really hard to quantify your work when you're thinking about like, a lot of people say like when you're teaching, like it just takes one life and you saved a life and all that
stuff. but it's really hard Collin (03:00):
Hmm. J. Ryan
So I got to watch friends at places like Zendesk and Gigia and others like figure out Collin (04:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
(05:00):
in 2019, um, and, uh, 2018 and 2019, 22 accelerators in 14 countries. And in that work I decided to start making a film about founders from around the world. And here we go, founders from around the world start telling that story. People start saying, I'm having trouble telling my story. My executive coaching clients started asking, you help us with video? And so the arc to to film producer goes through teaching people how to sell and just making an impact. And so I think if that'sthe, you know, for all the like twists and turns in my own career, I just bring it back to, I keep asking like how to make a bigger impact. And I feel like the getting the story right on your startup Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: more important than getting that first customer. So I went from working on like, how do you get your first customer? How do you get your first 10 customers, two. How do you tell the story in such a way that your first customer will actually show up? Collin:
That's really cool. I wanna ask so many questions before I do. J. Ryan (06:00):
I Collin
for the show notes. Collin (07:00):
Cool. Are there any bootleg copies kicking around? I might be able to go find. J. Ryan
company in Portugal, a company in Uruguay, a company in Mexico City Company in, uh, couple companies in New Zealand. One in particular in a little tiny town called Dunedin. Um, they say that they're just two whales away from Antarctica. Um, but we tell, we brought all these stories together and then we told the story of us struggling through Covid to try to build a company. And, uh, the company failed and the film failed. And, um. You know, the partner and I, we only talk every, you know, six months or so Collin (08:00):
or so J. Ryan
dozen founder stories in it. I interviewed Mark Cuban. We spent an hour and 20 minutes together talking strategy, expansion, fund, fundraising. Um, the partner that I mentioned was a big internet company that was, they had big plans for us and, uh, Collin (09:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
And so my wife thought we were doing it for one reason. My partner thought we were doing it for another. I had dreams of something else. My friends, I would tell thought something else. This is a movie that a lot of Collin (10:00):
Hmm J. Ryan
what your role is in the demise of something. It's a lot easier just to blame other people. Uh, and, uh, it's, as I've thought about it more, I realized that I had a really big role in, in Wyatt Field. Collin (11:00):
Uh, that resonates real hard. I mean, looking back at carb, how you and I met each other, um, we went zero to a million in three months in revenue J. Ryan
(12:00):
when we moved from, when we pivoted from voltage to Carb, voltage was a serum company. We had one customer and we'd spent 18 months with one customer and I tried my ass off to get more than one customer and, and failed. And then I, I had read Predictable Revenue, I'd met Aaron, we'd been emailing back and forth and I was like, I was doing that on behalf of other people. And I said, Preston, could we do that but with Voltage? And he's like, yeah, I could hack it together on a weekend. I was like, that would be amazing 'cause I'm doing all this stuffin Google Sheets. And he did the pivot and then like, we had some customers using it. This is, we, we were using it internally and he's like, Hey, the right thing to do here is for me to not just try and make this jank together off the CRM system, it's to start fresh and like, let me get you something in two weeks. That's just. Built specifically to do this one thing as opposed to having, we're only using 5% of the functionality. We've already got all this old code and this, and I said, no, you can't, you can't, we don't have time to rebuild. You
(13:00):
have to just go and move as fast as possible. And that decision came back to bite us in the ass when man, you would, like, in the, in the dark days of carb, you would send, you'd, it was a tool that sent prospect emails. You'd click send, it would take two weeks to send that email. 'cause the server was just so bogged down with requests and queries. Like we had a queue that was literally two weeks long and it, we just couldn't move fast enough. And the alternative was spend $200,000 a month on our AWS bill. Or like we were already spending 20, 30, $40,000 a month onAWS and it's like we could 10 x that and we could get through it, or we could have, I ideally gone back and rewritten that and there were so many opportunities where I could have said, you know what? Let's stop trying to take on more customers. Let's stop trying to push to compete against lead Genius and SalesLoft and Outreach. 'cause they, SalesLoft and Outreach had a calling feature J. Ryan: Mm-hmm. Collin: and we were losing customers because they wanted the phone. I think that's why we lost Checkmate. Or one of the reasons why we lost Checkmate is y'all moved to,
I think it was SalesLoft back in the day and 'cause it had a dialer and I was pushing the team, pushing, pushing, pushing for a dialer. But all the backend stuff, it took us so long to, to push out. We just couldn't keep up. J. Ryan (14:00):
Well, I think we started this conversation on like, let's talk about product market fit and going down a couple paths with that around like talking about language and talking about story. I'd love to tell you more about like what Ander does around video, but you just heat something up that is really fun in that, know many other podcasts where you have a seller founder who feels like he failed with a former prospect, customer founder, who knows exactly what happened. you want to talk more about like, do you wanna dig into this? Collin
I, I like writing through and having to rethink. J. Ryan (15:00):
I'm sorry then. Collin
genius really interesting. At the time that you pivoted to Carb, LeadGenius was still doing outsourced, like, um, uh, Collin (16:00):
like a mechanical turk. J. Ryan
(17:00):
iota cards, which meant that we were travel agents so he could go book at cost to do whatever the heck we wanna do. Um, our youngest, our most junior SDR at that company used his company Perc Bonus and his card to go stay at the nicest hotel in California. Now everybody listening to this has a picture in their head of California and everybody knows that California, like, say what you want about the fruits of nuts, it's, you go out to California coast, like you're gonna have an argument about that not being one of the nicest places in the world.this young man, Charlie went and took his, his, his company, his company, spiff of, of uh, it was like a thousand dollars hotel bill a year. He had to be used by the end of the year. And so he took his girlfriend out to the coast and stayed at this, this amazing place called Post Ranch End, which is at top five hotels in the world, I would bet. Um, at least top 10 in the world. Definitely top two in California. Um. And so he goes out there and they recognize his membership number at the company being that we had previously sent guests there from
the OTA side of the business, the only travel agent side of the business. And so Charlie got an extra night and like a spa kit, all this stuff. I, that's not when you, when you're 23, do not spend that kind of money on your girlfriend. But um, and Collin (18:00):
No. J. Ryan
know of another business that it's that clear sometimes with restaurants and Yelp score matters. Um, sometimes I've also sold to public company CFOs where there's a specific score on what they're, they're trying to return to the street in terms of value. Uh, hard to align yourself, but when your product aligns to the one driver that that person you sell to cares about, Collin (19:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
was doing where the founder asked me to come interview for the VP of sales job. as Checkmate was trying to sell to these hotel GMs, our dead end wasn't the product in the gm, it was actually all these hotels are owned by groups. The Collin (20:00):
Hm. Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
for the jump. I knew I wanted to go from series A to series B as a VP of sales. So I'd watched a mentor do it. Collin (21:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
that there's little pieces of custom data that turn into silver bullets, which is what anybody who's interested in, like finding that silver bullet for prospecting should Collin (22:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
Collin (23:00):
They had the most stable API. Right. Like of anybody back then. J. Ryan
guess. And it wasn't like, I'm not saying I'm amazing for that. It was dumb luck of me not wanting to write a deck or a Collin (24:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
listen to it and tell us whether or not we remember his story. Right. But he's doing big things now for a company that works in the, uh, in, in, uh, helping people solve some of the global warming issues at the like big enterprise software level. Collin (25:00):
I saw that. He's also got the co-founder of Uber, uh, label on his, uh, on his LinkedIn of Uber Freight, I think it was. J. Ryan
basically creating a system of record for all the freight that transfers between the different hands they transfer. Um, Collin (26:00):
Hmm. J. Ryan
matter? Uh, 'cause the things that I should have learned from our engagement, wasn't able to translate to product. A big Collin (27:00):
Fair. J. Ryan
(28:00):
had somebody who was really good at selling those enterprise accounts, and we had to figure out internally about how to, uh, keep them happy. um, it started to work, what happened was the enterprise accounts had way less churn or very high NRR number happening for any company. That was where what we did had an impact over about 50 to a hundred people. so we're talking about eBay and Box and IBM and Google. These were all companies that had tested something and like tasted the productand, because on the enterprise side of things, it was a stable account. The founders who were testing the product, like Checkmate, like I said, they lost, you know, they, they left LeadGenius right after, you know, they left you. So, um, know, a couple years here, a couple years there, or sorry, a few months here and there. So the, but I'll tell you, if I had to put it in one like fortune cookie kind of sentence was something I learned from the board member at LeadGenius. Tim G
he was a, the series A board member. He said startups that sell to other startups. Are drunks holding each other up at a party. And he was absolutely right about that. That's such a good Collin (29:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
(30:00):
uh, other startups that are easy yeses is it gives you this false sense of product market fit. And I think one of the biggest pieces I've learned from the Uber story, from Checkmate, from all the successes and failures from the last 13 years is that the strength of product market fit is a multiplier of your go-to-market efforts. And if you are, if you think your product market fit is strong and you're gonna make all these investments, but it's built that, that opinion of it's strong because I've sold to all these other YC companies that are friendly, that aregonna give me money because we're all part of the cabal, then you're artificially inflating your numbers and, uh, your revenue efficiency isn't gonna come anywhere close to where you think it's gonna be. J. Ryan: and by the way, that's the same thing as fraud. If you go and artificially inflate your numbers, 'cause you own a a group of people all buy each other's product in a little circle. Like, Collin: Hmm. J. Ryan: I don't know how that would be defined, uh, around the world, but I, I don't think that that's good practice. Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: you know,
let's go find the right experimentation. Let's go find the right question to ask. Collin (31:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
people you don't have product market fit. The world will get out and you will ruin your chance to make your next sale or do your next fundraising round. So you gotta go Collin (32:00):
Yep. J. Ryan
Collin (33:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan (34:00):
They do 20 bucks a seat. We sold to the next hotel. We use the first one for social proof. The next hotel is paying the price that we need for it to work. Boom, we proved it. Now the next question might be, could we use a sales strategy like predictable revenue back in the day? I think that might be some, uh, question now about like, how do I get AI to work in here? Well, can I find some efficiencies? Then I go, okay, as a cohort, the next five accounts I sold worked. Is it? 'cause they all have things in common. Think about like a b, a Bingo board. When you look at the people you're selling to, if you're selling to accounts that all have the same bingo squares filled in, sell to a VP of marketing. I need approval from the director of sales because they've got a, like where their leads are coming from and the person who's instrumenting it all might be head of sales ops. Those three people are the same on the same bingo card every time.
If that happens five times in a row, it's kinda like having a hand in cards. That's what Steve and I used to Collin (35:00):
Hmm. J. Ryan
conversation into a very clear experiment. Product market fits not binary, but each individual stages in the sales processes, yes it happened, or no it didn't. Those are clear experiments. They're control group experiments. Just like eighth grade science class, you'll be fine. And as you experiment with that, you're proving that it's working right? And Collin (36:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
to? Who do I wanna Collin (37:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
full hand? Who are all the individuals? Who are the stakeholders? What are the things that they need to do? What are the value, right? Like, what are the values that they care about and how does my product kind of tie to those values? If you can't tie your product to those values, if you can't find out who that full poker cart or full poker hand is, you're J. Ryan (38:00):
yeah. Collin
(39:00):
is customer's, customer. I wanna make sure your guests are happy. I wanna give you software so that you can go serve them and please them. Um, that there's nothing more noble than that. Um, not everything I've sold have had that clear path. When I was selling advertising, I was selling it to an e-commerce manager to retarget somebody to get them to come buy everyone. The only time we talked about your customers customer was like, the people seeing this ad, do you wanna give 'em a coupon? So they really are excited about this. Coupon codes isn't really customer, customerstuff. It's a little bit. Promotions touch that world a little bit, but Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: that's nobody in that flow is staying up at night going, Hmm, how do I get Colin to buy that next pair of socks? Because he really, his feet seem cold. Like they don't care. They're not thinking about that. They're thinking, how do I Collin: No. J. Ryan: buy the next pair of socks? So then I could get my, prove that my promotion work and then figure out where I go from there. Um, you know, and so I. One of the things that's happened for me is talking to enough founders about
sales and revenue coaching with the how to go from early stage to building a business and finding product market fit, or proving that something is working, like proving Collin (40:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
And that led me down this road to say, well, if I had my perfect job, I would want to own all the go-to market. And now we're helping people own their entire go-to-market process, which also includes product market fit, but also the language fit. How do we Collin (41:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
school, she's being hit on by this guy. And I said, what was his pickup line? And uh, 'cause she met him in yoga and I'm like, there's no guy who goes yoga that's not just trying to pick up girls. And she's Collin (42:00):
Yeah. J. Ryan
or, uh, or your spouse might complete you, if you will, if you use Jerry McGuire. If we can talk like that and use that language, our prospects will see us as insiders too. Collin (43:00):
It's been since our conversation last week into those listening, um, Ryan and I did a. A recording through Anter where you were walking, Ryan was walking me through how do we get like a, how do we get a chapter of the book down to three minutes, which sounds like in theory it should be easy, you should just feed it to GPT and it'll spit out something meaningful. But it's shockingly hard, even though, even though you could put like the best prompt, Hey, make me sound like Mark Rober and like, cut this down and this and this and that. The what we, uh, we accomplished about 30 seconds in probably an hour. Um, but that's probably the slowest I'll ever take. But the, the clarity that we brought from where I started was here way wide open about, you know, helping founders find first customers. And where we ended up was, you know, somewhere pretty
(44:00):
special where we're not quite done. We got, I still gotta finish that recording. I think I got a good script going, but like where we, where I started compared to where I went, it kind of changed the way I thought about how I was approaching a lot of the content. That I was trying to create and how I've been trying to get the message out and why, you know, looking back over my LinkedIn activity the last couple of months, it's not doing very good and we put a lot of time into this content that doesn't resonate, that doesn't do anything. And that's one of the biggest things that's been frustrating to meis to have this like mediocre content associated with my name and no, no shade to like the folks at PR that are helping me and producing like I a hundred percent own the, the outcome that like it's mediocre because I've made it. I've built a process that generates mediocre content and that's why it's getting mediocre engagement. But I think the thing I appreciated with you is the ability to kind of walk through from like, you know, what is the top level, high level idea of like, what are you trying to get and then how do we make this something that's gonna be, uh, catchy. It's gonna have a strong hook on
(45:00):
social media, and then how do we get to the core message? And I always felt like that's, it's kind of, it's dirtying the art of like producing the content. It makes me feel less authentic, but would I rather be an artist and perfect and write and unknown or would I rather, or do I do myself, do I do my audience a better, a service by, you know, participating in the hooks and really optimizing the message to where they need to hear it so that I get more people in front of that message, which I think can help a lotof founders. But so far I haven't succeeded very much because I've been getting in my own way. J. Ryan: well you come full circle for me because I started my career as an educator where the question was, am I entertainer? That makes social studies interesting for sixth and seventh graders. Uh, you know, they don't really care about history. They don't really care about the writing and the books and the things, the curriculum that was picked by the district or the, or the school. Um, so I've gotta sell that to them.
(46:00):
And, and sales, same thing. Um, doing the client a disservice. I would always tell my sales team back when I first started managing people, and I tell founders this all the time too, somewhere in a conference room, someone's about to be fired unless you email them and tell 'em what your product does. In advertising. We were the first to democratize, uh, the ability to do retargeting ads. And we started by competing with Google. And then we became a platform that served a much bigger market. And, and there were dozens anddozens every day of e-commerce marketing managers who were about to get fired because they hadn't figured out retargeting yet. And our sales team's job was to reach out to them and call them, you know, use our own sales hacking tools to be able to do a mass campaign outreach, which was run outta Google Sheets at the time, by the way. Uh, but um, and then later on at Lead Genius is the same thing, you know, and, uh, and Checkmate same thing. Your customers are are dying to hear from you. Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: the case
(47:00):
of people who wanna read your book, there are people who really wanna read your book. wanna read your book. But they're not, unless you go and get them in your funnel because they might actually, like, if you don't promote your book, you might meet somebody five years from now. Who's pissed. They never heard about it. That actually happened with Aaron's book. I was at a wedding a few years ago and I was telling a founder what I did, working with, you know, founders on sales and, and helping them think about the revenue process. And this guy said, you know, somebody gave me this book the other day. I wish I had10 years ago. It's called Predictable Revenue. And I didn't laugh in his face 'cause I thought, oh, that's how long it takes for books like that to make it to Chicago. um, but it was funny to me that, um, here's this book that the rest of us are, are, have it's the Aaron, but most of us have, Collin: It's old hat now. Yeah. J. Ryan: it's, you know, it's all, it's it's, it's a coffee coaster now, uh, in many ways. 'cause a lot of the market is starting to evolve and change too. Um. But the principles work in certain markets at certain times and places. Collin: Mm-hmm. J. Ryan: and that's a pretty cool thing.
And people who are just finding it are having, they're like, oh my God, I found this. You know, I, I, uh, I found the gospel moment, uh, which is great. People will maybe say the same thing about what they're reading from you. I know the part that I've read, it's like, this is spot on. Every founder needs to hear this, but you gotta present it in a way that makes it easy for them to know about it, you know? Collin (48:00):
A hundred percent. I really appreciate that. We went on a little bit of a detour and. Got to go through the whole Checkmate lead genius kind of transition. I originally invited you here to talk a little bit about anteater and tell me the product market fit story. I know we've got the first, the little bit of it. Um, but I'd love to kind of wrap with, tell me a little bit about, you know, what you're doing for clients with Ant Eater. I want to cut right to it 'cause we don't have time. I don't want to take another half an hour of your time or the audience's time to go through the whole story. But walk me through because I found it extremely helpful and um, in just in that first hour conversation that we had, and I know there will be more. Um, but I'm excited to get going with it.
Tell me, for all those that are listening, why should they be excited and why should they be interested in reaching out to, to Jay Ryan to talk about. J. Ryan (49:00):
Yeah, thanks for that. The, the first and foremost is the, the market has moved to organic social content via video. who's selling B2B is going to have pressure to do video. Um, the first stakes were how do you email and do outbound? Then we graduated into making sure Apple Funnel has a lot of content and good content marketing. Now we're to a place where you really need to be doing video and video. That's done by the founder telling the founder story. Why does this company exist? Why did you start this? If you haven't read Founder Brand by Dave Gerhardt, that's a great book to start with. He talks a little bit about the path that you're doing, Colin, of like. Building out a podcast so that you can connect with both prospects as well as people in the community. Um, because you're giving, first, you're doing a service to the industry. I wanna help founders who agree with that and wanna be on that path, that know that if they
(50:00):
give into the industry and to the space that they're selling into, that that will actually return more value. Okay, so level one is you gotta care about who you sell to. Level two is now we gotta go figure out what they want, what type of content will it be helpful for them? for many of us, that's video content. that's a video podcast or a point of view video, or in your case, taking really complicated chapters of books, making them in shorts. And so we help customers build trust their prospects through short formvideo. So trust is about credibility. What you know, reliability. What you do if you're showing up and intimacy how you make them feel. So you may think, okay, well my sister's really good at TikTok, I'll just do TikTok for my company. Well, let's say your company is like Checkmate. You sell to hotel founders. And so now you're doing these TikTok skits about the best hotels in the world or the worst hotels in the world. You know, you start doing skits about like finding a fly in your hotel bed or whatever, uh, uh,
flying, whatever the fly in the soup thing is. Collin (51:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
(52:00):
just think about their dealing with the brand they've never heard of, and now we're to, how do you get somebody to care about that brand they never heard of? We gotta tell 'em we're back to you. Oh, we're backed by Google, or we're backed by Andreesen Horowitz. Now I gotta go raise more money to build a brand. And then series A comes. What do I do? I rebrand. So I wanna get in front of all that and just say like, the founder story is one of the most important things to have out there if you do it in the right way. If you do it through short form video content that connectswith your audience, they can build trust faster than an email or a brand campaign or a direct ad that you're paying for. Now, I know that's incredibly biased, so people please rip me up at the comments. There's other ways to build trust, but if you are thinking that, oh, I know this is, this video's a bad idea, instead I'm gonna go get a speaker slot at a conference. please go do that. And what you'll find is after you give your talk at the conference, 10 people will come up to you afterwards. out a really good LinkedIn post is gonna engage with 10 prospects. At this
stage, at the founder selling stage, Collin (53:00):
Mm-hmm. So J. Ryan
It doesn't build as much credibility as holding up the book that you wrote. Like, you'll get to do that. Sophia gets to do that. Sophia gets to send it to people. Uh, my friend, my friend Jocko, when by Design sent me when I was at Lead Genius. He's like, I wanna train your team. He sent me a coffee table book he wrote that was like fucking huge with big Collin (54:00):
Oh, the that thing's cool. The blueprints. I love that. J. Ryan
trust, these short form video. And we, um, we also have a couple of VCs that see it as a way to share their thesis. So that makes me think we can't be all that wrong if the VCs are thinking this works too. Collin (55:00):
I love it. I can attest as someone who has a camera is speaking into you, into a teleprompter. I've had the desire to do YouTube long form, medium form, short form for years now, and. Yet, you look at our YouTube channel and it's just uploads of this podcast and shorts that we carve up from this podcast. And so I'm excited that we're actually making progress on this. J. Ryan
and dm. Reach out there. Um, happy to connect with folks and talk, and you may be thinking it's like, oh, well I don't wanna reach out if I don't know where I'm at. Reach out. Anyway, I love to help out. I've got some free resource of people on the website. Um, I can send you some guides or, you know, uh, figure out if there's a way that we could just try to be helpful because I have been there. I have turned that camera on. I know the Collin (56:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
go. Exactly. I distorted them all. Um, and some of 'em bought, I was okay at that job, but, uh, but that wasn't my intention was to distort it. It was my intention was just try to be helpful. Collin (57:00):
Mm-hmm. J. Ryan
(58:00):
show. Thanks everybodyfor listening. We'll catch y'all next time.
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