July 3, 2025 • 20 mins
Collin Stewart interviewed Jason Fletcher, founder of DevPipeline, a software apprenticeship program training overlooked talent in rural Utah.
Jason didn’t build with funding, marketing, or a roadmap. He built by doing. The result: a sticky, mission-driven business with real product-market fit and zero ad spend.
The way Jason built it holds lessons every founder should steal.
Highlights include: Where the Idea Came From? (0:41), How to Validate Your Idea? (02:28), Become a Developer in 45 Weeks (08:18), Locking in and Commiting (10:27), The Weirdest Customer Acquisition Channel (12:18), and more...
Stay updated with our podcast and the latest insights in Outbound Sales and Go-to-Market Strategies!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Collin Stewart (00:00):
Welcome back to the Predictable revenue. Podcast I'm your host, Colin Stewart. And today I'm joined by Jason Fletcher. He's the founder and CEO over@devpipeline.com. And we're going to talk product market fit before we jump in. This episode is brought to you by predictable revenues. Founder coaching program founders. Let's be real
(00:05):
134
scaling. A company is tough. You're juggling product revenue hiring a million other things. But what if you had a proven framework and expert guidance to help you navigate the chaos. That's where our founder coaching program comes in. Whether you're trying to find your 1st customers or fine tune. Your go to market. We're here to help you build a business that scales well, predictably.
135
Jason. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.
136
Jason Fletcher (00:30):
Hey? Thanks, Colin! Happy to be here.
137
Collin Stewart (00:40):
Happy to have you. I'm curious. I'd love to dive in to Dev Pipeline. Talk to me about where the idea came from.
138
Jason Fletcher (00:50):
Yeah, that's
139
kind of a long time coming. Actually, I it started really as a kind of a personal response to what I saw as a broken system.
140
I've been doing software development since the eighties
(01:15):
141
when we got the commodore 64 for Christmas, and I and I just fell in love with computers. I fell in love with development, and as my schooling and career progressed throughout my life, I started to kind of move into positions of hiring developers and and training developers.
142
And I, I'm a college graduate, 1st generation college graduate from my family. And I don't
143
(01:40):
wanna sound like, I'm picking on the college system because I believe it has a place, and I believe that it serves a purpose. But I saw that there were people coming out of college that lacked experience. I saw companies struggling to hire people that that, you know were qualified companies don't have the capabilities really to to Upskill and to train their own people.
144
And so I thought, There's there's got to be a better way to do this. I saw that there were companies kind of sprouting up like boot camps. Online trainings, things like that where they're trying to solve the problem. But they're doing it at almost a get rich, quick kind of methodology and 12 weeks for a boot camp just wasn't enough time to really learn what they were supposed to learn. So
145
with this, this gap of
(02:05):
146
over a million jobs being unfilled in the tech sector every year, and all the colleges and training programs only accounting for about 60,000 graduates every year we were never gonna fill that. So I thought, how how do we get people qualified to be software developers and help provide that talent to companies. And so.
147
as companies were struggling to hire and people couldn't break in, I said, Well, I know software development. I know training. How about if we
148
(02:30):
blend the 2? And we start our own apprenticeship.
149
And you know, it really is
150
kind of a centuries old model that we're applying to software development.
(02:55):
151
And and so that's where that's where really the idea of Dev pipeline came from.
152
Collin Stewart (03:10):
So you had this idea. How do you go about validating it and testing it like what? What came between 1st customer and decision to do something about the gap you saw in the market.
153
Jason Fletcher (03:20):
Yeah, the validation was actually just getting in and doing it.
154
We hire. I hired
155
3 boot camp graduates. They weren't qualified to get jobs. They they had no confidence. They could get a job. So I said, Okay, I'll just hire them. We'll go out and find projects to work on.
(03:45):
156
and that turned into 6 developers, and then it turned into 8 developers. And by that point we were validating with higher education. We formed a partnership with a college down at Ephram, Utah, called Snow College, and we started to develop our own curriculum at that point.
157
instead of relying on their training from before we were going to provide that training as well as the on the job training that apprenticeship model. And so our validation really came just by starting.
158
(04:10):
And I thought, Hey, I've got the resources to start it, and we've got people who need it. Let's just go and figure it out as we go, and that really has come from. You know that that
159
that method has worked out for us because we've seen
160
more and more developers come or wanting to be developers, people who
(04:35):
161
are not employed, people who are underemployed, people who've always wanted to get into tech, or it's relatively new for them. And we have companies that are in dire need of developers and companies that are in dire need of development services. And so as we've
162
as we've just gone forward, we've. It's almost as if
163
(05:00):
both sides have come out of the woodworks for us. And we're the number one. In fact, for a while we're the only software development full stack apprenticeship in Utah.
164
and we have customers outside of the State of Utah. We have customers in the State of Utah, and as we grew
165
we actually found a lot of success in the rural communities. So there's a community out East in Utah called vernal, and primarily vernal, is
(05:25):
166
oil and gas, and so what you see is when oil and gas is doing well. Vernal's got 20,000 people in town
167
when vernal, when oil and gas is down. There's about 10,000 people in town, and businesses are struggling because it's not just the oil and gas businesses now that are struggling, it's the restaurants. It's the supermarkets. It's the hardware stores. Everybody is struggling. And so they've always been looking for ways to diversify their economy. So as we've brought this program to Vernal. They embraced it wholeheartedly.
168
(05:50):
The county has scholarship money for individuals who live in the county who want to take the program, and the companies there are just hungry for local talent. So it's worked out really well for us.
169
Collin Stewart (06:00):
You'll have to forgive me. Because when I 1st looked at your website, I saw Dev pipeline.
170
I assumed he was referring to software pipeline. And then my brain went, okay, another dev shop. But this sounds. It does sound like you do some of that outsource development. But the apprenticeship program really sounds unique. Help me understand specifically what that looks like. Just because I feel like it'll help add some more color to the rest of what we're going to talk about.
171
Jason Fletcher (06:20):
Yeah, absolutely. The the name Dev pipeline refers to developer pipeline. So we are a pipeline for software developers.
172
The the work that we do for clients is is part of the formula, but the primary goal of our company is to help build careers. So we work primarily with department of workforce services vocational rehab. We work with apprenticeship Utah. And there's groups here in Utah that government groups that work with what they call Utah at risk youth.
173
I like California's term. They call them opportunity youth.
(06:45):
174
And so we work with these groups to find those who are maybe disenfranchised find immigrants find people who are underemployed or unemployed.
175
whose opportunities just don't exist. And so our primary focus is on the training and the apprenticeship. And sometimes that apprenticeship is with us. We hire them. They work on client work, they work on projects that we're building. And sometimes it's they're hired by our employer partners. So the goal really is.
176
(07:10):
can we take someone who doesn't have a job in tech and maybe doesn't have those skills and help them build that career?
177
And if if you kind of sum it up in. In one story I would say there was a there was a lady. Her name was Silvana. She was a Bulgarian immigrant came to the United States she had kids, and she was got the only job she could get which was a
178
medical tech at a hospital.
(07:35):
179
She hated it she? She was working long hours low pay. She really didn't like it, but she was doing it because she was providing for her family.
180
Collin Stewart (07:50):
She decided she wanted to do more. She wanted to to do.
181
Jason Fletcher (08:00):
She wanted to have a career and something that was exciting to her, and software development was exciting to her. So we found out about her story, and how much she was putting in for her family. She literally was just
182
all day, every day with raising her kids, going to work long hours and burning the candle at both ends, and we ended up scholarshipping her entirely, so she didn't have to pay anything for the program.
183
I remember I was teaching the coding foundations course, and
(08:25):
184
she showed up to class one morning, and she was just in tears. And this was probably 3 weeks into the program, and I thought, Oh, no.
185
she's not gonna make it. She was explaining how she was just up all night. She was trying to get this to work, couldn't get it to work, and it was frustrating for her, especially when she's already low on sleep. And
186
(08:50):
and
187
I remember she fought through it, and she was doing better by the time the program was over. It's a 45 week program.
188
and by the time the program was 2 weeks from ending. She called me, and she said, I want you to know. I just got a job offer.
(09:15):
189
and I said, Tell me about it.
190
she said, well, I thought, I'll just start applying. So she applied to Lee County, Florida, which is where she lives
191
(09:40):
to be a junior software developer. They were gonna pay between 45 and $55,000, she thought. I'll just shoot for the moon and go for 50.
192
And
193
they interviewed her, and then they interviewed her with some senior developers, and they came back, and they were so impressed with her they offered her a better position at 65,000 a year, and
(10:05):
194
that just made my heart sing. That's that's the whole reason we do this. And you know, my favorite quote from her was, before dev pipeline.
195
We rented a house. Now we own our home, and I drive a Tesla. That was. That was her direct quote, and I thought, oh, that's that's great! What a wonderful lady! And now she's gone on to get a degree in machine learning. And she's working in AI.
196
(10:30):
And so that's really, why we why we do what we do.
197
Collin Stewart (10:40):
I'm, and I normally don't go deep on products. I'm just annoyingly curious. And I can't stop asking questions. Hence, why a podcast is a fit for me, because otherwise I just annoy everybody else around me. And so they're like, channel the questions here. It's a 45 week program. Is that full time, part time in class, not in class, or like virtual.
198
Jason Fletcher (10:50):
So yeah, we have the, we have a 3 semester program, 15 weeks each semester. The 1st 15 weeks is 4 HA day, 5 days a week. So it's part time
199
so some people will come in. They've got a job. They're they're working in a full time job or a part time job, or they're all in on this when they graduate from that 1st 15 week course, then they qualify for the apprenticeship, and either us or one of our one of our employer partners will hire them, and then they'll be in a in a half time, so they'll be 4 HA day in class, 4 HA day at the job
200
and by the 3rd certificate in. So that's the front end web development course, the back End web development course. At this point they're about
(11:15):
201
75% of their time is working.
202
So they it really is kind of the shift towards the practical learning on the job, the application of what they were learning in class.
203
Collin Stewart (11:40):
Interesting.
204
I've a friend of mine started a coding boot camp, and they do the 12 week thing. I think they've got a pretty great program. It is full time. It is 12 weeks.
205
There's only so much you can learn. Mid 12 weeks.
(12:05):
206
Jason Fletcher (12:10):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. If you look at it. You think I've got to learn enough to be successful in a career in 12 weeks. And that's just really hard. There are individuals who are very successful going through boot camps. We find that those same people, many of those same people would probably also be successful doing it on their own.
207
because it really does take a commitment
208
to it to be successful at anything in software development, and those who are taking the boot camps and being successful. Those are the ones that are really driven. Those are the ones that are doing things above and beyond what the program requires. And you know that it's they're getting a love for it in the boot camp. And then they're teaching themselves. They're going on, and they're learning more. And our our motto here at Dev Pipeline is, own your journey.
(12:35):
209
you know. We we try to provide everything they need to be successful from a curriculum perspective, from the experience, from mentorship, from opportunities and connections with industry players. But if they're not owning their journey, we can't force success on them.
210
Collin Stewart (12:50):
It definitely is one of those things that you have to opt in. You have to. You really have to want to do it, and you have to put the time in and commit. I've been kind of on the verge of like I've done coding classes. I've done some part fractions of boot camps. I've done self-guided things throughout the years, and I've never. I've never had 3 months where all I could do is code, and so I've never made it quite over that hump. I use Windsurf and I can do some damage and write some absolutely horrific code.
211
Yeah, but
212
it does the thing. So I'm like, maybe I don't have to get over the hump. I'm sure.
(13:15):
213
Jason Fletcher (13:20):
AI is making things a lot easier, too. So you're you're, you know. Maybe someday
214
I do kind of feel like a caveman that stumbled across the Internet. You know.
215
Collin Stewart (13:40):
So I did want to. I did want to ask the you started validating it. You validate it by just doing it, which I love, I mean as a services business. That's kind of the model.
216
Where did your 1st customers come from? Were you doing like? Were you doing services before and thought, Hey, this is the model. Let's try it out, or you just kind of went for it.
217
Jason Fletcher (14:00):
No, we it. We just kind of went for it. And I said, You know, we'll
218
we'll build our own products until customers show up, and the developers, your or or developer wannabes. I guess the
219
they're easy to find. They come to us.
(14:25):
220
We don't do any sort of marketing or anything like that, and they find us through
221
the government websites. They find us through word of mouth. They find us a lot of different ways, but
222
(14:50):
it was the employer. Partnerships, the employer clients, right? They those are the ones that came mostly by word of mouth. It's oh, I hear you do software. And so our 1st customers really literally came from the office next door, where they had need for something to be built. And they said, Well, you guys do this? Yeah, sure, we can do that. And you know, when we kind of moved into these rural communities, the the next customers, just
223
we're all word of mouth. It was, this person knows this person. And they need software. Okay, we can do that.
224
And that's really how we've driven most of our marketing. We don't. We don't do a lot of marketing. We don't do a lot of events
(15:15):
225
but we just do good work, and people pass us on.
226
Collin Stewart (15:30):
If you had told me before this interview that your customer act, your primary customer acquisition Channel, would be moving into rural communities
227
as your primary customer acquisition channel for finding development software development work I would have. I would have bet, any amount of money that that was not true.
228
That is just. I love it like it's the craziest customer acquisition channel I've ever heard. And I'm I'm a big fan that's wild.
(15:55):
229
Jason Fletcher (16:00):
You know, it's interesting because we there was a Co. A company out in in Vernal that we we met, and the reason they called us is because they had tried to hire a senior developer.
230
and they offered them a lot of money. They moved out there lasted 2 weeks, and they were like, I'm not living here, and they moved out.
231
Now you don't have to go very far. You throw a rock in Vernal, and you'll hit somebody who wants to stay in Vernal, who loves the community, who grew up there, who loves it.
(16:25):
232
Collin Stewart (16:30):
So.
233
Jason Fletcher (16:40):
The problem is, they don't have a lot of resources for software development in vernal. So getting someone to move there or to have remote workers is very difficult. So originally, they said.
234
Can you do the work for us because we can't hire somebody? And we said, Sure we can do the work. But in the meantime, how about if you take your people, put them through our program?
235
And so they sent one of their tech support guys through the Dev Pipeline program, and he became a software developer for them. They have since hired 2 of our other developers, 2 of our apprentices that have gone through our program. So their entire Dev team right now is dev pipeline trained, and the benefits they get from having that local talent
(17:05):
236
having somebody who loves the community. Who's gonna stay there? Who's who's not gonna be? I'm out for a better, greener pasture, whatever it's you can't put a price on that.
237
Collin Stewart (17:20):
That's really incredible.
238
So 1st customers came from.
239
you know your initial network from the partners from the building next door. Next, customers came from opening up rural communities.
(17:45):
240
Jason Fletcher (17:50):
Yeah.
241
Collin Stewart (18:00):
And that's the and the the channel. The primary channel is referrals.
242
Jason Fletcher (18:10):
Referrals. It's been word of mouth and reputation. People start to appreciate how we work. You know, transparency is a big deal with us. Quality is a big deal with us. Our mission is a big deal with our customers, and when you look at the this, what we provide by being local.
243
Both from a language perspective as well as time zone perspectives. Communication is massive. We do, not just agile development. Here at dev pipeline. We also do, you know, regular sprints and regular demos. So our customers are never feeling like they're just writing something on a piece of paper and throwing it over the wall and waiting for something to come back.
244
And that's huge when you're outsourcing software development.
(18:35):
245
And from the perspective of working closely with these customers. We're on site with them. We're not, you know, 2,000 miles away. We know they have an issue. We're in their building, and that's that's big. That's a big deal for them.
246
Collin Stewart (18:50):
It's interesting. And so you haven't gone much outside of the communities. It's all been local. You're
247
you could drive to all your customers, offices.
248
Jason Fletcher (19:10):
Almost all of them. Yes, yeah, almost all of them. We do have some that are more remote than than than some of the rural companies. We do some work in California. We do some work in Idaho, but you know, for the most part most of our customers are local.
249
Collin Stewart (19:20):
Gotcha.
250
Talk to me about the moment that you realized you might have product market fit here.
251
Jason Fletcher (19:40):
That's a great question. You know it. A lot of it has to do with
252
kind of both sides of the equation. If you think about what our mission is with helping build careers in tech and bridging that technology gap? I have to say that that's kind of the product. Right? That's the the changed life is the real product. And and when we hear back from apprentices that say, You know, this has changed everything for us my whole family. This is open doors. I never would have had opened. That's that's massive.
253
and that validates that part of it for us, and when our clients that we're working with say, Wow, it's really refreshing to work with a company that listens, and that actually helps us
(20:05):
254
with not just getting it done, but also getting the right thing done.
255
That's that's been the validation for me is just seeing both parts of that equation match up to see that the work we do for a customer is good enough. They want to hire our people to continue working with them.
256
(20:30):
And for for me, that's that's the fit.
257
Collin Stewart (20:40):
That's really, I mean, that's really great.
258
The the thing with services. And one of the, you know, when I looked at the sound I was like is this, is this a great fit? But the reason why I thought you'd be interesting to have on here is the the differentiation in the model.
259
There are anybody can start a any developer. I mean, I could start a software development company. It wouldn't be very good. It would be
(21:05):
260
very likely the worst software development company that has ever been started. Just me and Windsurf vibecoding away just absolute garbage. But anybody could start an agency.
261
What I love about
262
(21:30):
Dev Pipeline is the model. Yes, you theoretically could. But this kind of creates a bit of a moat for you that I couldn't go and create this. I mean, I could try. But I would have to. You know, you get to build the year program. You need to find somebody that has the training. So you've got some.
263
you know, differentiated folks. You've got a differentiated model that's really hard to copy. This is one of the 1st services businesses I've ran into that has a bit of a moat.
264
Jason Fletcher (21:50):
Yeah, that's a that's a great point. I think. You know, for those that that might think about copying what we're doing. I say, bring it on, because that's we're not gonna compete necessarily this. This is such a big problem that if there's more people solving it, the more the better. In my opinion. You know, it's just such a a huge issue to solve. There's so many people to help. There's so many
265
minds to shift. I think if we look back at the history of hiring, there's been this idea that a college degree is kind of a magic golden ticket to getting a job.
266
And that's not the case anymore. If we look at college graduate, we've had several college graduates come into our program
(22:15):
267
because they couldn't get a job out of college. And so they go through our 45 week program and learn, get the on the job training and the experience. And then they can go launch and get a job, because they now have that experience, that application, knowledge and those things. And we're still kind of seeing a slow shift in companies willing to hire. So there's almost this golden ticket mentality in companies. Still, I see these wonderful hiring
268
posts, their their job postings. They say things like we need someone with 3 years of experience in this technology that's only been around for one.
269
(22:40):
And you know, it's it's a little bit ridiculous. It's we we kind of have fun with it, but
270
there really is a almost a wall that's been put up that says if you don't have a college degree, and then you don't qualify. And really most of that is artificial. Some of the best developers I've ever worked with have no college degree.
271
And again, if college is an option for someone, I would say, go for it. It's a great, well rounded education. Make sure you tie that that experience with.
(23:05):
272
you know, real world experience like an internship part time job, something in the industry. So when you graduate, you're not just showing a paper, you're showing experience behind that
273
you know, but a lot of that comes down to to kind of what my my core belief is. And and I think that if we were to talk about education as a whole. I think it's a little bit
274
(23:30):
stagnant.
275
We have believed for so long in education that
276
that time needs to be fixed.
(23:55):
277
And if time is the fixed constant in the equation, that means our outcomes are variable. Now as someone with Adhd who struggled in school as a kid. You know this kind of is very personal for me. But I see that we tell kids you need to be in class for this long, this many hours a day, this many days a week, this many weeks a year. And then we're going to just kind of see how everybody does with that.
278
And while there has been some innovation in that model, it's
279
(24:20):
primarily the same as it was, you know, 50 years ago.
280
and I think that there's got to be a shift at some point to what we're trying to accomplish, which is
281
true competency based education, which is.
(24:45):
282
we want to take and make time the variable. We want to fix the outcome. And we can do that by tracking the competencies.
283
And so we're currently it's kind of the the next big thing is is this competency tracking platform, and it's assessment tracking improvement and and reporting.
284
(25:10):
But it allows us as a as a company and as an organization to truly measure that someone's getting it
285
so that we're not kind of doing the the 10 min university, if you will, which is that in 10 min you could learn everything. You're gonna remember, after 5 years
286
past college.
(25:35):
287
like, you know. There's a big joke about it. But the truth is, if you don't apply what you're learning, you're not gonna learn, you have to actually do
288
in order to learn. And that's really where our college experience for those of us that have gone. It's it's like that's
289
(26:00):
that was for some of us
290
25 years ago. And if we look at 25 years ago. What am I gonna remember about my humanities class
291
25 years. If I'm not in the humanities, I'm not. Gonna remember a whole lot. So
(26:25):
292
how do we focus on what's important and give experience and and hands-on doing in that?
293
That's what we focus on.
294
Collin Stewart (26:50):
Amazing.
295
it's been super interesting getting a chance to kind of hear about the story. And a little bit you kind of hinted with the competency piece of what comes next. I am curious, though, you know, is this from a Dev pipeline perspective? Is this a global? You know domination? You're going to be in every rural community in the world, or just taking over Utah. Or
296
it's a yeah great question. I think that for us it's it's about.
(27:15):
297
Jason Fletcher (27:20):
Growing and helping as many people as we can. So if I could grow this and have it in every you know, rural community in Utah and even expand into other countries. I'm happy to do it, because as long as we're doing that and staying grounded on our mission, which is helping people build their lives through these careers. Then I'm happy to to grow as big as we need to. I think our apprenticeship model is
298
is unique.
299
It's unique in that.
(27:45):
300
There's not a lot of companies that are set up to actually do what we do
301
that aren't set up to really provide that apprenticeship
302
(28:10):
from, you know, basically really junior to, you know, mid level to to somebody who's prepared to to actually make a contribution in a company.
303
And there's
304
there's probably the sky's the limit on this for me. This isn't about scaling for revenue. It's about scaling for purpose, and the revenue comes.
(28:35):
305
you know, as long as you're pushing in the same direction as Henry Ford said. As long as we're all pushing the same direction, success will take care of itself.
306
and so we're moving into more communities, more employer partners.
307
(29:00):
Scaling up our our competency tool is kind of next on the docket.
308
Collin Stewart (29:10):
I love it.
309
If somebody is listening and they want to learn more about you, Dev Pipeline, or just pick your brain. What's the best way for them to reach out.
310
Jason Fletcher (29:30):
Yeah, they can reach out on our website, www, dot dev pipeline.com. That's like developer pipeline. And or they can, they can email me at jason@devpipeline.com.
311
We also have kind of the general info@devpipeline.com. If people are interested in learning more about the apprenticeship program.
312
They'll probably hear back quicker on that one just because my inbox gets so full. But but yeah, happy to talk to anybody who has any questions about it.
(29:55):
313
Collin Stewart (30:00):
Right on, Jason. Thank you so much for coming on the show and and sharing the deaf pipeline story. I really enjoyed it.
314
Jason Fletcher (30:10):
Hey? Thank you. Colin.
315
Collin Stewart (30:20):
And thanks to everybody for listening, we'll catch you all next time.
Welcome back to the Predictable revenue. Podcast I'm your host, Colin Stewart. And today I'm joined by Jason Fletcher. He's the founder and CEO over@devpipeline.com. And we're going to talk product market fit before we jump in. This episode is brought to you by predictable revenues. Founder coaching program founders. Let's be real
(00:05):
134
scaling. A company is tough. You're juggling product revenue hiring a million other things. But what if you had a proven framework and expert guidance to help you navigate the chaos. That's where our founder coaching program comes in. Whether you're trying to find your 1st customers or fine tune. Your go to market. We're here to help you build a business that scales well, predictably.
135
Jason. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.
136
Jason Fletcher (00:30):
Hey? Thanks, Colin! Happy to be here.
137
Collin Stewart (00:40):
Happy to have you. I'm curious. I'd love to dive in to Dev Pipeline. Talk to me about where the idea came from.
138
Jason Fletcher (00:50):
Yeah, that's
139
kind of a long time coming. Actually, I it started really as a kind of a personal response to what I saw as a broken system.
140
I've been doing software development since the eighties
(01:15):
141
when we got the commodore 64 for Christmas, and I and I just fell in love with computers. I fell in love with development, and as my schooling and career progressed throughout my life, I started to kind of move into positions of hiring developers and and training developers.
142
And I, I'm a college graduate, 1st generation college graduate from my family. And I don't
143
(01:40):
wanna sound like, I'm picking on the college system because I believe it has a place, and I believe that it serves a purpose. But I saw that there were people coming out of college that lacked experience. I saw companies struggling to hire people that that, you know were qualified companies don't have the capabilities really to to Upskill and to train their own people.
144
And so I thought, There's there's got to be a better way to do this. I saw that there were companies kind of sprouting up like boot camps. Online trainings, things like that where they're trying to solve the problem. But they're doing it at almost a get rich, quick kind of methodology and 12 weeks for a boot camp just wasn't enough time to really learn what they were supposed to learn. So
145
with this, this gap of
(02:05):
146
over a million jobs being unfilled in the tech sector every year, and all the colleges and training programs only accounting for about 60,000 graduates every year we were never gonna fill that. So I thought, how how do we get people qualified to be software developers and help provide that talent to companies. And so.
147
as companies were struggling to hire and people couldn't break in, I said, Well, I know software development. I know training. How about if we
148
(02:30):
blend the 2? And we start our own apprenticeship.
149
And you know, it really is
150
kind of a centuries old model that we're applying to software development.
(02:55):
151
And and so that's where that's where really the idea of Dev pipeline came from.
152
Collin Stewart (03:10):
So you had this idea. How do you go about validating it and testing it like what? What came between 1st customer and decision to do something about the gap you saw in the market.
153
Jason Fletcher (03:20):
Yeah, the validation was actually just getting in and doing it.
154
We hire. I hired
155
3 boot camp graduates. They weren't qualified to get jobs. They they had no confidence. They could get a job. So I said, Okay, I'll just hire them. We'll go out and find projects to work on.
(03:45):
156
and that turned into 6 developers, and then it turned into 8 developers. And by that point we were validating with higher education. We formed a partnership with a college down at Ephram, Utah, called Snow College, and we started to develop our own curriculum at that point.
157
instead of relying on their training from before we were going to provide that training as well as the on the job training that apprenticeship model. And so our validation really came just by starting.
158
(04:10):
And I thought, Hey, I've got the resources to start it, and we've got people who need it. Let's just go and figure it out as we go, and that really has come from. You know that that
159
that method has worked out for us because we've seen
160
more and more developers come or wanting to be developers, people who
(04:35):
161
are not employed, people who are underemployed, people who've always wanted to get into tech, or it's relatively new for them. And we have companies that are in dire need of developers and companies that are in dire need of development services. And so as we've
162
as we've just gone forward, we've. It's almost as if
163
(05:00):
both sides have come out of the woodworks for us. And we're the number one. In fact, for a while we're the only software development full stack apprenticeship in Utah.
164
and we have customers outside of the State of Utah. We have customers in the State of Utah, and as we grew
165
we actually found a lot of success in the rural communities. So there's a community out East in Utah called vernal, and primarily vernal, is
(05:25):
166
oil and gas, and so what you see is when oil and gas is doing well. Vernal's got 20,000 people in town
167
when vernal, when oil and gas is down. There's about 10,000 people in town, and businesses are struggling because it's not just the oil and gas businesses now that are struggling, it's the restaurants. It's the supermarkets. It's the hardware stores. Everybody is struggling. And so they've always been looking for ways to diversify their economy. So as we've brought this program to Vernal. They embraced it wholeheartedly.
168
(05:50):
The county has scholarship money for individuals who live in the county who want to take the program, and the companies there are just hungry for local talent. So it's worked out really well for us.
169
Collin Stewart (06:00):
You'll have to forgive me. Because when I 1st looked at your website, I saw Dev pipeline.
170
I assumed he was referring to software pipeline. And then my brain went, okay, another dev shop. But this sounds. It does sound like you do some of that outsource development. But the apprenticeship program really sounds unique. Help me understand specifically what that looks like. Just because I feel like it'll help add some more color to the rest of what we're going to talk about.
171
Jason Fletcher (06:20):
Yeah, absolutely. The the name Dev pipeline refers to developer pipeline. So we are a pipeline for software developers.
172
The the work that we do for clients is is part of the formula, but the primary goal of our company is to help build careers. So we work primarily with department of workforce services vocational rehab. We work with apprenticeship Utah. And there's groups here in Utah that government groups that work with what they call Utah at risk youth.
173
I like California's term. They call them opportunity youth.
(06:45):
174
And so we work with these groups to find those who are maybe disenfranchised find immigrants find people who are underemployed or unemployed.
175
whose opportunities just don't exist. And so our primary focus is on the training and the apprenticeship. And sometimes that apprenticeship is with us. We hire them. They work on client work, they work on projects that we're building. And sometimes it's they're hired by our employer partners. So the goal really is.
176
(07:10):
can we take someone who doesn't have a job in tech and maybe doesn't have those skills and help them build that career?
177
And if if you kind of sum it up in. In one story I would say there was a there was a lady. Her name was Silvana. She was a Bulgarian immigrant came to the United States she had kids, and she was got the only job she could get which was a
178
medical tech at a hospital.
(07:35):
179
She hated it she? She was working long hours low pay. She really didn't like it, but she was doing it because she was providing for her family.
180
Collin Stewart (07:50):
She decided she wanted to do more. She wanted to to do.
181
Jason Fletcher (08:00):
She wanted to have a career and something that was exciting to her, and software development was exciting to her. So we found out about her story, and how much she was putting in for her family. She literally was just
182
all day, every day with raising her kids, going to work long hours and burning the candle at both ends, and we ended up scholarshipping her entirely, so she didn't have to pay anything for the program.
183
I remember I was teaching the coding foundations course, and
(08:25):
184
she showed up to class one morning, and she was just in tears. And this was probably 3 weeks into the program, and I thought, Oh, no.
185
she's not gonna make it. She was explaining how she was just up all night. She was trying to get this to work, couldn't get it to work, and it was frustrating for her, especially when she's already low on sleep. And
186
(08:50):
and
187
I remember she fought through it, and she was doing better by the time the program was over. It's a 45 week program.
188
and by the time the program was 2 weeks from ending. She called me, and she said, I want you to know. I just got a job offer.
(09:15):
189
and I said, Tell me about it.
190
she said, well, I thought, I'll just start applying. So she applied to Lee County, Florida, which is where she lives
191
(09:40):
to be a junior software developer. They were gonna pay between 45 and $55,000, she thought. I'll just shoot for the moon and go for 50.
192
And
193
they interviewed her, and then they interviewed her with some senior developers, and they came back, and they were so impressed with her they offered her a better position at 65,000 a year, and
(10:05):
194
that just made my heart sing. That's that's the whole reason we do this. And you know, my favorite quote from her was, before dev pipeline.
195
We rented a house. Now we own our home, and I drive a Tesla. That was. That was her direct quote, and I thought, oh, that's that's great! What a wonderful lady! And now she's gone on to get a degree in machine learning. And she's working in AI.
196
(10:30):
And so that's really, why we why we do what we do.
197
Collin Stewart (10:40):
I'm, and I normally don't go deep on products. I'm just annoyingly curious. And I can't stop asking questions. Hence, why a podcast is a fit for me, because otherwise I just annoy everybody else around me. And so they're like, channel the questions here. It's a 45 week program. Is that full time, part time in class, not in class, or like virtual.
198
Jason Fletcher (10:50):
So yeah, we have the, we have a 3 semester program, 15 weeks each semester. The 1st 15 weeks is 4 HA day, 5 days a week. So it's part time
199
so some people will come in. They've got a job. They're they're working in a full time job or a part time job, or they're all in on this when they graduate from that 1st 15 week course, then they qualify for the apprenticeship, and either us or one of our one of our employer partners will hire them, and then they'll be in a in a half time, so they'll be 4 HA day in class, 4 HA day at the job
200
and by the 3rd certificate in. So that's the front end web development course, the back End web development course. At this point they're about
(11:15):
201
75% of their time is working.
202
So they it really is kind of the shift towards the practical learning on the job, the application of what they were learning in class.
203
Collin Stewart (11:40):
Interesting.
204
I've a friend of mine started a coding boot camp, and they do the 12 week thing. I think they've got a pretty great program. It is full time. It is 12 weeks.
205
There's only so much you can learn. Mid 12 weeks.
(12:05):
206
Jason Fletcher (12:10):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. If you look at it. You think I've got to learn enough to be successful in a career in 12 weeks. And that's just really hard. There are individuals who are very successful going through boot camps. We find that those same people, many of those same people would probably also be successful doing it on their own.
207
because it really does take a commitment
208
to it to be successful at anything in software development, and those who are taking the boot camps and being successful. Those are the ones that are really driven. Those are the ones that are doing things above and beyond what the program requires. And you know that it's they're getting a love for it in the boot camp. And then they're teaching themselves. They're going on, and they're learning more. And our our motto here at Dev Pipeline is, own your journey.
(12:35):
209
you know. We we try to provide everything they need to be successful from a curriculum perspective, from the experience, from mentorship, from opportunities and connections with industry players. But if they're not owning their journey, we can't force success on them.
210
Collin Stewart (12:50):
It definitely is one of those things that you have to opt in. You have to. You really have to want to do it, and you have to put the time in and commit. I've been kind of on the verge of like I've done coding classes. I've done some part fractions of boot camps. I've done self-guided things throughout the years, and I've never. I've never had 3 months where all I could do is code, and so I've never made it quite over that hump. I use Windsurf and I can do some damage and write some absolutely horrific code.
211
Yeah, but
212
it does the thing. So I'm like, maybe I don't have to get over the hump. I'm sure.
(13:15):
213
Jason Fletcher (13:20):
AI is making things a lot easier, too. So you're you're, you know. Maybe someday
214
I do kind of feel like a caveman that stumbled across the Internet. You know.
215
Collin Stewart (13:40):
So I did want to. I did want to ask the you started validating it. You validate it by just doing it, which I love, I mean as a services business. That's kind of the model.
216
Where did your 1st customers come from? Were you doing like? Were you doing services before and thought, Hey, this is the model. Let's try it out, or you just kind of went for it.
217
Jason Fletcher (14:00):
No, we it. We just kind of went for it. And I said, You know, we'll
218
we'll build our own products until customers show up, and the developers, your or or developer wannabes. I guess the
219
they're easy to find. They come to us.
(14:25):
220
We don't do any sort of marketing or anything like that, and they find us through
221
the government websites. They find us through word of mouth. They find us a lot of different ways, but
222
(14:50):
it was the employer. Partnerships, the employer clients, right? They those are the ones that came mostly by word of mouth. It's oh, I hear you do software. And so our 1st customers really literally came from the office next door, where they had need for something to be built. And they said, Well, you guys do this? Yeah, sure, we can do that. And you know, when we kind of moved into these rural communities, the the next customers, just
223
we're all word of mouth. It was, this person knows this person. And they need software. Okay, we can do that.
224
And that's really how we've driven most of our marketing. We don't. We don't do a lot of marketing. We don't do a lot of events
(15:15):
225
but we just do good work, and people pass us on.
226
Collin Stewart (15:30):
If you had told me before this interview that your customer act, your primary customer acquisition Channel, would be moving into rural communities
227
as your primary customer acquisition channel for finding development software development work I would have. I would have bet, any amount of money that that was not true.
228
That is just. I love it like it's the craziest customer acquisition channel I've ever heard. And I'm I'm a big fan that's wild.
(15:55):
229
Jason Fletcher (16:00):
You know, it's interesting because we there was a Co. A company out in in Vernal that we we met, and the reason they called us is because they had tried to hire a senior developer.
230
and they offered them a lot of money. They moved out there lasted 2 weeks, and they were like, I'm not living here, and they moved out.
231
Now you don't have to go very far. You throw a rock in Vernal, and you'll hit somebody who wants to stay in Vernal, who loves the community, who grew up there, who loves it.
(16:25):
232
Collin Stewart (16:30):
So.
233
Jason Fletcher (16:40):
The problem is, they don't have a lot of resources for software development in vernal. So getting someone to move there or to have remote workers is very difficult. So originally, they said.
234
Can you do the work for us because we can't hire somebody? And we said, Sure we can do the work. But in the meantime, how about if you take your people, put them through our program?
235
And so they sent one of their tech support guys through the Dev Pipeline program, and he became a software developer for them. They have since hired 2 of our other developers, 2 of our apprentices that have gone through our program. So their entire Dev team right now is dev pipeline trained, and the benefits they get from having that local talent
(17:05):
236
having somebody who loves the community. Who's gonna stay there? Who's who's not gonna be? I'm out for a better, greener pasture, whatever it's you can't put a price on that.
237
Collin Stewart (17:20):
That's really incredible.
238
So 1st customers came from.
239
you know your initial network from the partners from the building next door. Next, customers came from opening up rural communities.
(17:45):
240
Jason Fletcher (17:50):
Yeah.
241
Collin Stewart (18:00):
And that's the and the the channel. The primary channel is referrals.
242
Jason Fletcher (18:10):
Referrals. It's been word of mouth and reputation. People start to appreciate how we work. You know, transparency is a big deal with us. Quality is a big deal with us. Our mission is a big deal with our customers, and when you look at the this, what we provide by being local.
243
Both from a language perspective as well as time zone perspectives. Communication is massive. We do, not just agile development. Here at dev pipeline. We also do, you know, regular sprints and regular demos. So our customers are never feeling like they're just writing something on a piece of paper and throwing it over the wall and waiting for something to come back.
244
And that's huge when you're outsourcing software development.
(18:35):
245
And from the perspective of working closely with these customers. We're on site with them. We're not, you know, 2,000 miles away. We know they have an issue. We're in their building, and that's that's big. That's a big deal for them.
246
Collin Stewart (18:50):
It's interesting. And so you haven't gone much outside of the communities. It's all been local. You're
247
you could drive to all your customers, offices.
248
Jason Fletcher (19:10):
Almost all of them. Yes, yeah, almost all of them. We do have some that are more remote than than than some of the rural companies. We do some work in California. We do some work in Idaho, but you know, for the most part most of our customers are local.
249
Collin Stewart (19:20):
Gotcha.
250
Talk to me about the moment that you realized you might have product market fit here.
251
Jason Fletcher (19:40):
That's a great question. You know it. A lot of it has to do with
252
kind of both sides of the equation. If you think about what our mission is with helping build careers in tech and bridging that technology gap? I have to say that that's kind of the product. Right? That's the the changed life is the real product. And and when we hear back from apprentices that say, You know, this has changed everything for us my whole family. This is open doors. I never would have had opened. That's that's massive.
253
and that validates that part of it for us, and when our clients that we're working with say, Wow, it's really refreshing to work with a company that listens, and that actually helps us
(20:05):
254
with not just getting it done, but also getting the right thing done.
255
That's that's been the validation for me is just seeing both parts of that equation match up to see that the work we do for a customer is good enough. They want to hire our people to continue working with them.
256
(20:30):
And for for me, that's that's the fit.
257
Collin Stewart (20:40):
That's really, I mean, that's really great.
258
The the thing with services. And one of the, you know, when I looked at the sound I was like is this, is this a great fit? But the reason why I thought you'd be interesting to have on here is the the differentiation in the model.
259
There are anybody can start a any developer. I mean, I could start a software development company. It wouldn't be very good. It would be
(21:05):
260
very likely the worst software development company that has ever been started. Just me and Windsurf vibecoding away just absolute garbage. But anybody could start an agency.
261
What I love about
262
(21:30):
Dev Pipeline is the model. Yes, you theoretically could. But this kind of creates a bit of a moat for you that I couldn't go and create this. I mean, I could try. But I would have to. You know, you get to build the year program. You need to find somebody that has the training. So you've got some.
263
you know, differentiated folks. You've got a differentiated model that's really hard to copy. This is one of the 1st services businesses I've ran into that has a bit of a moat.
264
Jason Fletcher (21:50):
Yeah, that's a that's a great point. I think. You know, for those that that might think about copying what we're doing. I say, bring it on, because that's we're not gonna compete necessarily this. This is such a big problem that if there's more people solving it, the more the better. In my opinion. You know, it's just such a a huge issue to solve. There's so many people to help. There's so many
265
minds to shift. I think if we look back at the history of hiring, there's been this idea that a college degree is kind of a magic golden ticket to getting a job.
266
And that's not the case anymore. If we look at college graduate, we've had several college graduates come into our program
(22:15):
267
because they couldn't get a job out of college. And so they go through our 45 week program and learn, get the on the job training and the experience. And then they can go launch and get a job, because they now have that experience, that application, knowledge and those things. And we're still kind of seeing a slow shift in companies willing to hire. So there's almost this golden ticket mentality in companies. Still, I see these wonderful hiring
268
posts, their their job postings. They say things like we need someone with 3 years of experience in this technology that's only been around for one.
269
(22:40):
And you know, it's it's a little bit ridiculous. It's we we kind of have fun with it, but
270
there really is a almost a wall that's been put up that says if you don't have a college degree, and then you don't qualify. And really most of that is artificial. Some of the best developers I've ever worked with have no college degree.
271
And again, if college is an option for someone, I would say, go for it. It's a great, well rounded education. Make sure you tie that that experience with.
(23:05):
272
you know, real world experience like an internship part time job, something in the industry. So when you graduate, you're not just showing a paper, you're showing experience behind that
273
you know, but a lot of that comes down to to kind of what my my core belief is. And and I think that if we were to talk about education as a whole. I think it's a little bit
274
(23:30):
stagnant.
275
We have believed for so long in education that
276
that time needs to be fixed.
(23:55):
277
And if time is the fixed constant in the equation, that means our outcomes are variable. Now as someone with Adhd who struggled in school as a kid. You know this kind of is very personal for me. But I see that we tell kids you need to be in class for this long, this many hours a day, this many days a week, this many weeks a year. And then we're going to just kind of see how everybody does with that.
278
And while there has been some innovation in that model, it's
279
(24:20):
primarily the same as it was, you know, 50 years ago.
280
and I think that there's got to be a shift at some point to what we're trying to accomplish, which is
281
true competency based education, which is.
(24:45):
282
we want to take and make time the variable. We want to fix the outcome. And we can do that by tracking the competencies.
283
And so we're currently it's kind of the the next big thing is is this competency tracking platform, and it's assessment tracking improvement and and reporting.
284
(25:10):
But it allows us as a as a company and as an organization to truly measure that someone's getting it
285
so that we're not kind of doing the the 10 min university, if you will, which is that in 10 min you could learn everything. You're gonna remember, after 5 years
286
past college.
(25:35):
287
like, you know. There's a big joke about it. But the truth is, if you don't apply what you're learning, you're not gonna learn, you have to actually do
288
in order to learn. And that's really where our college experience for those of us that have gone. It's it's like that's
289
(26:00):
that was for some of us
290
25 years ago. And if we look at 25 years ago. What am I gonna remember about my humanities class
291
25 years. If I'm not in the humanities, I'm not. Gonna remember a whole lot. So
(26:25):
292
how do we focus on what's important and give experience and and hands-on doing in that?
293
That's what we focus on.
294
Collin Stewart (26:50):
Amazing.
295
it's been super interesting getting a chance to kind of hear about the story. And a little bit you kind of hinted with the competency piece of what comes next. I am curious, though, you know, is this from a Dev pipeline perspective? Is this a global? You know domination? You're going to be in every rural community in the world, or just taking over Utah. Or
296
it's a yeah great question. I think that for us it's it's about.
(27:15):
297
Jason Fletcher (27:20):
Growing and helping as many people as we can. So if I could grow this and have it in every you know, rural community in Utah and even expand into other countries. I'm happy to do it, because as long as we're doing that and staying grounded on our mission, which is helping people build their lives through these careers. Then I'm happy to to grow as big as we need to. I think our apprenticeship model is
298
is unique.
299
It's unique in that.
(27:45):
300
There's not a lot of companies that are set up to actually do what we do
301
that aren't set up to really provide that apprenticeship
302
(28:10):
from, you know, basically really junior to, you know, mid level to to somebody who's prepared to to actually make a contribution in a company.
303
And there's
304
there's probably the sky's the limit on this for me. This isn't about scaling for revenue. It's about scaling for purpose, and the revenue comes.
(28:35):
305
you know, as long as you're pushing in the same direction as Henry Ford said. As long as we're all pushing the same direction, success will take care of itself.
306
and so we're moving into more communities, more employer partners.
307
(29:00):
Scaling up our our competency tool is kind of next on the docket.
308
Collin Stewart (29:10):
I love it.
309
If somebody is listening and they want to learn more about you, Dev Pipeline, or just pick your brain. What's the best way for them to reach out.
310
Jason Fletcher (29:30):
Yeah, they can reach out on our website, www, dot dev pipeline.com. That's like developer pipeline. And or they can, they can email me at jason@devpipeline.com.
311
We also have kind of the general info@devpipeline.com. If people are interested in learning more about the apprenticeship program.
312
They'll probably hear back quicker on that one just because my inbox gets so full. But but yeah, happy to talk to anybody who has any questions about it.
(29:55):
313
Collin Stewart (30:00):
Right on, Jason. Thank you so much for coming on the show and and sharing the deaf pipeline story. I really enjoyed it.
314
Jason Fletcher (30:10):
Hey? Thank you. Colin.
315
Collin Stewart (30:20):
And thanks to everybody for listening, we'll catch you all next time.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com