December 12, 2024 • 30 mins
One of my goals as a coach is to try to prevent entrepreneurial burnout in people I love (and myself!) When my guest today reached out to ask to talk on the podcast, I knew it was going to be a good one.
Dr. Camilla Moore is a lifestyle medicine expert who focuses on stress management and burnout prevention for women entrepreneurs. She shares her journey from a chiropractor to a full-time stress management coach, and we are talking about the challenges women face with work-life balance, especially post-pandemic, and the importance of setting boundaries to prevent burnout.
Dr. Moore provides practical tips for identifying energy-draining and energy-giving activities, setting personal policies, and maintaining a sustainable balance in personal and professional life.
Stay tuned for part two to be released tomorrow!
TIME STAMPS:
00:00 Introduction and Peanut Butter Confession
01:10 Upcoming Episodes and Burnout Topic
02:01 Meet Dr. Camilla Moore
02:31 Burnout and Stress Management
04:17 Impact of the Pandemic on Women
08:12 Invisible Load and Gender Roles
12:04 Setting Personal Policies and Boundaries
12:59 Energy Management Exercise
18:35 Balancing Work and Personal Life
25:25 Preventing Burnout and Finding Joy
30:12 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey pro organizers it's Melissa.
And in case you are under themistaken impression that this is a.
Highly professional podcast.
And I, um, Really like haveprofessional, you know, stuff.
Uh, or whatever, I just got done eatinga spoonful of peanut butter, which by
(00:20):
the way, if you think that's weird,we do that in our house all the time.
Just random spoonfuls of peanut butter.
And there was like, oh my gosh,I need to go, uh, the record,
the intro to the podcast.
And I'm like, I just finishedeating peanut butter.
And, uh, I, now I can't talk.
So, this is a story that nobody askedme for an in fact, several of you may
have just clicked, stop other podcasts,but if you stuck with me, Thank you.
(00:44):
I just wanted to let you know that.
You know, it's really just me behindthis, uh, behind this microphone.
And, um, you know, it's not like a real,super professional outfit that you're
hanging out with, but I appreciatethose of you who stick it out with me.
Week after week afterweek after through 200.
And.
13.
(01:05):
I think this is episode 213.
So I really appreciate it.
All right.
I gave you a podcast on Monday.
Monday Tuesday.
I don't know.
Uh, and I'm giving you anotherone and then there's going to be
another one after this, because I'mbreaking this one up into two parts
because we are talking about burnout.
(01:25):
And I am talking to a doctor whospecializes in burnout and stress
and managing stress, particularlyfor women entrepreneurs.
Some of whom occasionally.
Like to just eat peanut butter, um,apparently and, uh, then podcasts.
So I am very thrilled to bring you partone of this conversation and part two.
(01:50):
I promise I will drop tomorrow.
So you will get three podcaststhis week because I am behind.
So I'm going to be getting caught upand you're going to get lots of goodness
from now until the end of the year.
So I would like to introduceyou to Camilla Moore.
And she is going to hitus with some great stuff.
I loved my conversation withher and I hope that you do too.
(02:12):
Have an awesome day organizers.
Okay.
We're going to get into it.
Cause we have, we could probablytalk for like seven hours.
Neither of us have the time forthat because we have many other
things to do, but we're busy
women.
We're busy.
We're busy women helping busy women.
But can you just give us kindof your background, all of
those things for our listeners?
So Dr.
(02:32):
Camilla Moore, I am sir,I'm a chiropractor by trade.
I sold my practice a few years ago.
Went to work for a big hospitalorganization, started the department
there, and then had always been doingsome mindfulness based meditation for
my own just personal use, but thenreally started to get burned out of
my job and wanted to Kind of spreadmy wings and see what else there was.
(02:57):
That's when I got my boardcertification in lifestyle medicine.
And one of the foundations of lifestylemedicine is stress management.
And so I really fell into the smartprogram, stress management and resiliency
training program that I teach online.
And and about a year ago, Littleover a year ago, there was some
reshuffling at the hospital system.
And instead of going back into privatepractice, I decided to do this full
(03:21):
time and have never looked back.
I teach the program online.
It's on demand because we aretalking about busy people.
So we need it accessible.
And then I work one on one with clientsthat in our, You know, our focus
is really how to burn out proof ofbusiness, and we work with small business
owners solopreneurs entrepreneurs,and professional women that are really
(03:42):
kind of struggling with this work lifebalance, but they, or they want to be,
you know, a little proactive, and like,how do we burn out proof our business,
because I feel like everybody seesthe writing on the wall, but we don't
have a roadmap, and so that's one ofthe things that we work on one on one.
And it's been wonderful.
Well, first of all, you have a verysimilar story to a lot of us, including
me of like, Hey, I had, I had this forkin the road and I just said, I'm going
(04:05):
all in on, on being a business owner.
But being a businessowner is not always easy.
You know, it's, there are peaks andvalleys and by the way, in any job,
there are peaks and valleys, butI think it's especially important.
Have you seen, I mean, this feels obviousto me because I have seen it in myself
and others, but like big changes sincethe pandemic, you In people's ability
(04:26):
to just handle things and all of that,
you know, it's been interesting because IYou know, our experience personally of the
pandemic was also you know, because I wasin healthcare and we kept our office open.
I was also pregnant during thepandemic and had a pandemic baby.
Yes.
In June of 2020.
And so I witnessed because I was alsotaking care of a lot of the health
(04:50):
care workers that were so stressedout and so exhausted and so burnt out.
And then but also kind ofgoing through it myself.
And one of the things I wasactually thinking about this
today it's funny you mentioned it.
Thinking about, like, how, in particular,like, with women, like, how the pandemic
has shaped all of our work life balanceand what that means, and there are a
(05:14):
lot of women like me, like, part ofthe reason why I decided to commit was
because I wanted flexibility, being aworking parent, being, you know, the
daughter of parents that are gettingolder, and, I wanted the flexibility of
not having to go into an office everyday and have that business dependent
(05:35):
just on me showing up that day, andalso to have other employees that were
reliant on me to show up that day.
But you know, There was this studythat came out earlier this year in
the journal Work, where it lookedat specifically women in middle
(05:55):
age and why we were so burned out.
And they narrowed itdown to three factors.
One, that women tend tobe in a higher turnover.
Profession and anyway, like their,their, their jobs or their positions
tend to have a little bit more chaoticnature in general to we're kind of
(06:16):
like the sandwich generation wherelike we might be caring for our own
kids, but also caring for our parents.
where we have, you know, we're reallythe middle of two generations that
need some caregiving and attention.
But the third was so interesting tosee, like, in print was that We have
economically evolved so that women aresuper powerful in the workplace, but
(06:42):
societally, we still have very genderspecific roles of carrying the household
load of carrying the child care andthe, you know, parents caregiving as
well, like most of that falls on women.
So.
You know, we see this, but in, sincethe pandemic, there has been a lot of
(07:03):
the shift for women wanting to workfrom home because like, it's just so
much easier, but at the same time,It doesn't really help that balance
because, you know, we're in it.
Like, we're home.
There's dishes to be done.
There is laundry to be done.
There is grocery shopping to be done.
And if we default to those traditionalroles, then we're doing all of it.
(07:27):
Yes.
And I think, you know, the pandemic isreally, we're, I don't think we're out
of it, but I'd still feel like the cardshave still been tossed up in the air.
And not the companies don'treally know where everything's in.
I mean, you're seeing like big companieslike Amazon, they're mandating, everybody
goes back to the office now and they'vegradually phased that in, right?
Like last year it was just like threeor four days, like a hybrid, but.
(07:51):
You know, I think that women havesuch power in the in the workforce
that I think Those that are employeesand getting, being employed are going
to do what, you know, you and I dideventually and just say, I'm so capable
of doing something better on my own.
And what's the downside?
(08:12):
Well, that, that unseen labor, you know,I, I know that there's a phrase for it
that I'm probably missing, but that,that emotional home labor kind of thing.
I'm obsessed with this topic.
And I had someone on thepodcast who's a fair point.
Play deck expert.
You know, she does all the,all the fair play stuff.
And we talked about this a lot becausethere are just, every, almost every
(08:33):
woman I know, even if you have awonderful, like, very good partner,
it just, so much of the, the lifestuff ends up on the mom or the woman
or the wife or you know, whatever.
And it's, it's really, reallyhard to balance all those things.
Well, and in like, you know, in a, in aheterosexual couple with, you know, the
(08:55):
man, like, the husband going to work,like, part of that infrastructure is he,
like, his job, like my husband's job,and yes, I, like, I married the good guy,
like, I married the nice guy, like, 10out of 10, highly recommend, but His job
still has expectations of him showingup and being there, you know, and we see
(09:16):
this in the difference of just maternityleave and paternity leave, I guess.
Paternity leave right now is like, youknow, crazy to think about in certain
generations, but, you know, in millennialgenerations, like, we have family members
that are in millennial generations, like,They both took time off, you know, like
it is, it's shifting a little bit, butpart of why it's difficult for these later
(09:40):
generations to do that is because theexpectation of both gender roles are still
very much founded in traditional roles.
For sure.
I actually, I'm glad you said that too,because I, I always, I tend to selfishly
think of the woman's side, but thereare, I know some very, really, really
(10:00):
great men in, again, in a heterosexualcouple who one of them, a guy that I
know that's, I would consider prettyprogressive about his views, who was
like, oh, this guy I work with is takingpaternity leave for three months, like, I
can't believe he's leaving for that long.
Like, he was, he was reallycomplaining about it.
And I was like, Like, honestly, like,I'm glad that he's taking pictures,
but there is still like, there area lot of those gender roles that
(10:22):
are still out there and but yeah,it's, it's, it's all interesting.
Well, and we take on, I think there,women, I can speak for myself, like
I'm so much better at multitaskingthan, you know, than my husband, like
God love him, you know, but but Ithink we have different skill sets
(10:43):
and, you know, it's, it's, it's, It'seasier for a lot of us to do all that
juggling, and it's expected, and if itdoesn't get done, it falls, we are the
ones that shoulder that blame, too.
And I think the term, it's invisible,the invisible load, it's the mental load
that, that women are carrying, and Yeah.
(11:04):
I mean, and, and having, throwing a childin the mix just highlights everything.
Just forget it.
Forget it.
When there's someone elsethat needs you all the time.
One of the things that I explainedto my husband one time is that like,
it was his dad's birthday and I waslike, Hey, did you get your dad a gift?
He's just looks at mewith this like blank face.
I think he's a good one and hejust looks at me and I go, do you
(11:29):
understand that if we show up at.
Your parents house without a gift.
I'm the one that's going to look bad.
Not you.
It's not my dad.
It's your dad, but I willlook bad and I will be judged.
And your mom and your sister aregoing to talk about me behind my back.
And he's like, what?
And I'm like, just trust me.
It's going to happen.
So,
(11:50):
and you know, one of the things thatwe were talking about before the show
was just about how, like, you know,as professional organizers taking on.
Taking on that load of your client,in addition to everything else.
Yes.
And , one of the, one of thethings that we talk about is,
(12:10):
setting personal policies.
If you have a business and you have youhave your financial policy, like we had
a no show policy in our office, we have,I mean, you cannot go into any place
without signing a terms of service.
Right.
And so if we can take that concept andapply it to our lives, then we give our
(12:33):
lives a little bit more structure tobe able to default to those boundaries.
And so we talk about setting boundaries alot, but that could be very challenging.
And one of the ways to move overthat hump and to make it more
comfortable is to evaluate your life.
(12:55):
This is one of the things we do.
I love this, this little game.
Evaluate your life in terms ofenergy, not so much in terms of tasks
or responsibilities, but weigh theenergy that it takes to move forward.
from you and, and all of thoseevents that give you energy.
And so, for example, like if you exerciseand that's something that you enjoy and
(13:18):
that gives you energy, like that givesyou energy, how much energy is that?
But then if you have a draining client,you know, how much does that drain you?
And so being able to be very detailed andvery specific On what gives you energy
and what doesn't give you energy reallybegins to put a quantitative measure
(13:39):
to what you want for your policies andwhat you can do for your boundaries.
I love this.
Okay, so is it like do youliterally write things out?
Like, do you give things a number?
Here's what we do.
So, you could take a piece of paperand we start broad, like there's a few
different steps, but we start broad.
And so to take a piece of paper andyou're just going to write two columns.
(14:02):
So down the middle and thendown across two columns charges.
And I can never, drains, I can neverremember that word for whatever it is.
So positive and negative, right?
So charges and drains.
And then, and this is the key, is youhave to be, you have to be very detailed.
And you have to understand thatthis is an observation exercise.
(14:24):
This is not a measure ofhow much you love someone.
This is not a measure ofyour commitment to them.
That is not a measure of anythingother than sitting with this.
And saying, how does this make me feel?
So, you know, I have a four year old.
I love him.
I would kill for this kid.
I would die for this kid.
He gives me a ton of joy and aton of energy, but he's also four
(14:47):
years old and like a drain, right?
So does the fact that he goes onboth sides make me less of a parent?
No, because you have to acknowledgethe parts where you're giving so much
before you can understand what youhave to do to fill yourself back up.
And so if you can make that listand you start really, it's so.
(15:11):
You may just say, see, like you,maybe your list of drains is like 20
and your list of charges are five.
That's fine, because if you get a huge hitfrom each one of those, then that's okay.
But you have to be able to sitand feel, what does this do?
You know, when I have to give,what does this feel like?
(15:33):
And so that begins to give yousomething tangible to recognize that
Maybe some of the policies can besetting some boundaries around the
drains, you know, and they don't haveto be, you know, I had two policies
when I had my, my business, my firstbusiness, and this is my practice.
(15:55):
One, I refuse to be uncomfortableat work, and two, I refuse to
be uncomfortable in my own home.
Okay.
And so, what that did,so those seem very broad.
However, if there was a conflict inthe office, if there was, and I'm a
middle child, so I do not like conflict.
I do.
I'm an oldest child and I don't like
(16:15):
it
either.
So, if there, avoid it.
Yeah.
But this.
Forced me, like if there was a conflictwith a patient, if there was a conflict
with an employee, like I would rememberthat I had told myself I am not
going to feel uncomfortable at work.
And so what that meant wasI was not going to stew.
I was not going to stew.
(16:35):
And it put me into thismindset of solutions.
And I, it gave me that little jolt tosay, deal with it and deal with it now
and get it off of your plate because youdo not want to walk into your own place
of business and not want to be there.
Okay, I love this.
This is really good.
As an avoider, I can saythat this is really good.
(16:59):
But put it into some context thatfeels comfortable to you, you know?
I mean, I do not love confrontation, butI, hated being uncomfortable in a place
where I was creating that space morethan I did not like that confrontation.
And so having skills around dis youknow, and that's where like honing
(17:23):
my skills on How to communicate thosecrucial conversations, those critical
conversations and how to navigatethose so that you can take a, you know,
highly charged situation and diffuse itand actually come together as a team.
That was really helpful.
But if I hadn't had that underlyingpolicy, then it would have been so
(17:44):
easy to just avoid, avoid, avoid.
And so I also had that same policyin my home, which means that.
You know, not everybodyis welcome in my home.
And this is when, you know, Ihad a community based practice.
So, like, you run into everybodyand, like, it's not unusual, like, to
just see people in your front yard.
And so I set that space that, like, myhome was for my family and my friends.
(18:08):
And that meant that no matter whathappened outside of this space, I
knew that I was always coming to avery safe, very comfortable place.
And so that was really helpful.
But I can give you a couple ofother options that I actually
love that you may not think about.
And like, one of them was that like,No no work phone calls in the car.
(18:35):
I was gonna say, I actually wanted totalk to you about this because as you were
talking, the first thing that I thoughtof is with what we do for a living, the
amount of ways people have to contact youand like your work hours kind of never end
because someone's always in your space.
So that was like, actually, I'mglad you're talking about this.
It's one of the firstthings I thought about.
Yes.
And that is, I think, especially ifyou are a small business owner, there
(18:59):
is this, we were talking about likethe challenges and the stresses that
come with that is this, you know, thedesire for being available full time.
And also kind of this driving needthat you have to, because if you
miss out on that business, then,you know, you won't be able to pay
the bills and blah, blah, blah.
But what I can tell you is thatsetting, setting that space.
(19:26):
is going to exponentiallygrow your business.
And it will because what you're doingis you are concentrating that effort.
You are concentrating your business.
And so at the same time, you are alsocarving out that time for your own
replenishment and your own recovery time.
(19:47):
And so having those, and you have tojust say, okay, what makes sense to me?
What am I really missingthat I was enjoying?
And so, for example, I love So inthe car, I listen to podcasts or
I talk to my family, but there areno work phone calls in the car.
And so that sets that spaceagain for, that's on my terms.
(20:11):
I've also seen more and more emails comethrough from, you know, other colleagues
and other people, other people that justsay, I return emails on Monday, Tuesday.
Thursday, Friday.
And like, that's it.
Like that's their email.
And I love that.
Like, I love that.
One of the things that I have found isthat in business, happiness equals is
(20:37):
when reality exceeds the expectations.
So when you can set the expectationsof communication with your clients,
Then, if you stay within thoseexpectations that you have set that
work for you, then you're winning.
If you decide to go outside ofthose, then you're exceeding
(20:58):
their expectations already.
And so, you know, setting thesepersonal policies protect yourself,
but they also help to streamlineyour business by removing a lot
of that questioning clutter.
I think we have a lot of all of us,including myself, operate so much in
business out of a fear you know, andit's, it's, we can call it fear or FOMO or
(21:22):
there are probably a lot of names for it.
But I just think about what you'resaying is, Oh my gosh, if I don't
work on my business 24 hours a day,my business is going to implode.
No, your businessactually might be better.
If you say at five o'clock,my computer gets shut down or
I don't return client texts.
at nine o'clock at night.
And I actually had a client yesterdaywho sent me a text and she, she flat
(21:42):
out said, I really appreciated this.
It was like eight at night.
And she goes, I do not expect a response.
I'm just sending this whileI'm thinking about it.
I, and I was like, bless, I willhappily get back to her because she's
so nice and because she's so respectful.
Right.
And but setting those.
Those boundaries.
And I know boundaries is like sucha hot word and you know, probably
overused and misused and all thethings, but setting those actually
(22:05):
helps you be better at your job.
Even if you might have someonethat is like, you know what?
I didn't love that.
You didn't get back to meat nine o'clock last night.
You know what?
I might have just learned about youthat you might not be my person.
And this is, this is so much of,you know, kind of the bigger,
like, energy picture, right?
Because we hear boundariesand we, we, we think barrier.
(22:27):
And that's where a lot of the kind ofangst around it, around it comes in.
But it's, it's, you know, If you thinkof it as just, this is how I run my
business, this is how I run my personallife, then it becomes a non negotiable
and a very objective perspective.
(22:49):
If, and this is, again, like, a, youknow, words of wisdom, if you focus
on the money in your business, it'salways going to be about the money.
Yeah.
If you, and you're nevergoing to have enough.
I can tell you, you'll never have enough.
But if you are able to let go ofthat piece of it and trust in your
(23:12):
service and trust that you are goingto provide an exceptional service in
an exceptional way, To people, youwill never have to worry about money.
And that is one of the truths.
And like, what you're saying islike, what this does in a big
picture is by saying, these are theparameters in which I'm going to work.
(23:36):
You will create a business inwhich people will embrace that.
And, you know, my dad'sa physical therapist.
He's, he's been practicing for.
I mean, 50 something years now,and he always said people will
come to you because of you and theywon't come to you because of you.
And that's exactly it.
(23:57):
You want to create, you're, you'renot trying to be, you cannot
be all things to all people.
That is a true, true statement.
So, by being who you are and beingtrue to what you need and to being
true to what you want to do, you willinvite people in that want that, too.
And you will detract people that will not.
(24:20):
And they'll come in.
They'll try to come in, butthey will leave very quickly.
And you don't want those people.
Because when you You
don't want them.
When I go back to, I love, it's,it's so simple, but it's so smart.
Like when you talked about the chargesand the drains, it's just like a phone.
We all, all of us know what drainsour phone down and all of us knows
how long it, we all know how longit takes to recharge our phone.
(24:43):
If you think about you as a human beingas that phone battery and are, I think
also really brutally honest with yourselfabout what actually charges and drains.
Like setting those boundaries.
And by the way, if you don't like the wordboundary, pick a different word, but set
those parameters for yourself is just,again, a way to say, I'm actually doing
(25:07):
something really good for myself and thepeople that I serve happily because I
want to continue to serve them happily.
Yes.
And that, like, you're inthis for the long haul.
This is a marathon.
And when I work with people wherethey've actually, like, and I've been
through all of this myself, you know,I understand what this feels like.
But when they are really struggling,one of the things that we do
(25:29):
is we say, Okay, now I want youto look back for those charges.
Because a lot of times you've gotten tothis point and you've lost so much of
yourself along the way, that You knowwhere you are now, it's unrecognizable.
You know, we wear all of thesedifferent hats and sometimes the
one that says Camilla, you know, orMelissa has just gotten so tiny that
(25:55):
it doesn't even seem to fit anymore.
And so.
And what we do is we have toget to the core of who you
are and what makes you tick.
And so we look back on, you know,the past 20, 30 years, whatever, and
we say, okay, what did you used todo that made you really feel tick?
(26:16):
Great.
That you could do forever.
You know, did you used to paint?
Did you used to exercise?
Did you used to sit and read a book?
You know, what was it that youreally loved doing that you have
had to lose along the way thatreally you loved about yourself?
Because those are the things, right?
(26:37):
Those are the things that whenyou've gotten to this point and
you feel like you've lost, you'velost who you are because you're
wearing all of these things.
We have to say, okay, what was it thatreally helped fill you up and then
being able to incorporate those thingsback in made you feel you that helps
(26:59):
to build that those charges back up.
But along the way, you probablyhave lost a lot of them.
I was gonna say, I was, I was actuallygonna joke, except for I realized
it probably isn't even really ajoke, I'm like, what if people don't
even know what those things are?
Because, I mean, that, that's, that'sreal too, I think that we've lost some
of those things that, of like, whatis it that legitimately lit me up, and
(27:22):
I was so So excited about and what,what does that even look like anymore?
And you might have to dig pretty deep tostart thinking about some of those things.
And that doesn't mean that you'regonna be doing that exact same thing.
Sure.
Right.
'cause it's, it's too easy tosay, well, I, you know, I don't
live in the mountains anymore.
I can't go hiking.
Okay.
Okay.
That's fine.
But what's the essence of it?
Sure.
What was the essence of that?
(27:42):
You know, and, and forme it was gardening.
Like we grew up, we had a certifiedorganic farm growing up just for
funsies, you know, and, but we.
That was so much of my childhood.
And at the time I was like,Oh God, weeding again.
So much work.
Yeah.
So much work.
But as an adult, like to be ableto have that time outside, like in
(28:03):
nature, growing your own food, like ithas such a deeper meaning to me now.
And like, it's so muchof what I just love.
To do as you see the dead plant behind me.
That's great.
I appreciate that because I, as someonewho does not have a green thumb, but,
but this is actually, I'm glad we'retalking about this too, because when I
think about, you know, what's the, youknow, kind of, what's the connection
(28:26):
between how we prevent burnout and otherthings in ourselves as business owners,
but also how do we help our clients?
I can just think right now, just asyou started to say that I'm like, I can
catalog a bunch of clients that I justthought about off the top of my head
that as we're going through their things,we'll say like, Oh wow, these knitting
needles have seven inches of dust on them.
(28:47):
Did you ever learn how to knit?
Oh yes.
I used to knit all the time,but I haven't done it in years.
I have.
And that's maybe a silly example,but it's, it's all sorts of things.
It's hobbies people used to have orthings people used to like to do.
And they, they just don't.
They don't do that anymore.
And then they're crushed by thestuff that they've all kept,
you know, the whole thing.
It, it, there are lots of thoseexamples that we see all around us.
(29:09):
That may just be, it may bebecause that was just, you know,
a moment in time for them, but italso may be something meaningful.
And until you sit down and exploreit, then you don't really know.
But the whole point hereis prevention, right?
So like, we don't wantto get to that point.
We want to be able to have thatbalance throughout our whole
(29:32):
careers and our whole business.
That's what we're looking for.
And these are the things that we lookat, you know, along with all the healthy
stuff, you know, like eating well andsleeping and, you know, those types
of things, which are very important.
It's a challenge, but I think gettingto the point where you trust what
you're doing and you trust yourselfthat that's going to be enough.
(29:55):
And then trusting that you are going tohave whatever it is that you need, you're
gonna get it, and you're working too hard,and it will happen but you have to protect
yourself in order to have the future.
All right.
Thank you, Dr.
Moore and I will be back tomorrow.
(30:17):
With part two of myconversation have a great day.
Hey pro organizers it's Melissa.
And in case you are under themistaken impression that this is a.
Highly professional podcast.
And I, um, Really like haveprofessional, you know, stuff.
Uh, or whatever, I just got done eatinga spoonful of peanut butter, which by
(00:20):
the way, if you think that's weird,we do that in our house all the time.
Just random spoonfuls of peanut butter.
And there was like, oh my gosh,I need to go, uh, the record,
the intro to the podcast.
And I'm like, I just finishedeating peanut butter.
And, uh, I, now I can't talk.
So, this is a story that nobody askedme for an in fact, several of you may
have just clicked, stop other podcasts,but if you stuck with me, Thank you.
(00:44):
I just wanted to let you know that.
You know, it's really just me behindthis, uh, behind this microphone.
And, um, you know, it's not like a real,super professional outfit that you're
hanging out with, but I appreciatethose of you who stick it out with me.
Week after week afterweek after through 200.
And.
13.
(01:05):
I think this is episode 213.
So I really appreciate it.
All right.
I gave you a podcast on Monday.
Monday Tuesday.
I don't know.
Uh, and I'm giving you anotherone and then there's going to be
another one after this, because I'mbreaking this one up into two parts
because we are talking about burnout.
(01:25):
And I am talking to a doctor whospecializes in burnout and stress
and managing stress, particularlyfor women entrepreneurs.
Some of whom occasionally.
Like to just eat peanut butter, um,apparently and, uh, then podcasts.
So I am very thrilled to bring you partone of this conversation and part two.
(01:50):
I promise I will drop tomorrow.
So you will get three podcaststhis week because I am behind.
So I'm going to be getting caught upand you're going to get lots of goodness
from now until the end of the year.
So I would like to introduceyou to Camilla Moore.
And she is going to hitus with some great stuff.
I loved my conversation withher and I hope that you do too.
(02:12):
Have an awesome day organizers.
Okay.
We're going to get into it.
Cause we have, we could probablytalk for like seven hours.
Neither of us have the time forthat because we have many other
things to do, but we're busy
women.
We're busy.
We're busy women helping busy women.
But can you just give us kindof your background, all of
those things for our listeners?
So Dr.
(02:32):
Camilla Moore, I am sir,I'm a chiropractor by trade.
I sold my practice a few years ago.
Went to work for a big hospitalorganization, started the department
there, and then had always been doingsome mindfulness based meditation for
my own just personal use, but thenreally started to get burned out of
my job and wanted to Kind of spreadmy wings and see what else there was.
(02:57):
That's when I got my boardcertification in lifestyle medicine.
And one of the foundations of lifestylemedicine is stress management.
And so I really fell into the smartprogram, stress management and resiliency
training program that I teach online.
And and about a year ago, Littleover a year ago, there was some
reshuffling at the hospital system.
And instead of going back into privatepractice, I decided to do this full
(03:21):
time and have never looked back.
I teach the program online.
It's on demand because we aretalking about busy people.
So we need it accessible.
And then I work one on one with clientsthat in our, You know, our focus
is really how to burn out proof ofbusiness, and we work with small business
owners solopreneurs entrepreneurs,and professional women that are really
(03:42):
kind of struggling with this work lifebalance, but they, or they want to be,
you know, a little proactive, and like,how do we burn out proof our business,
because I feel like everybody seesthe writing on the wall, but we don't
have a roadmap, and so that's one ofthe things that we work on one on one.
And it's been wonderful.
Well, first of all, you have a verysimilar story to a lot of us, including
me of like, Hey, I had, I had this forkin the road and I just said, I'm going
(04:05):
all in on, on being a business owner.
But being a businessowner is not always easy.
You know, it's, there are peaks andvalleys and by the way, in any job,
there are peaks and valleys, butI think it's especially important.
Have you seen, I mean, this feels obviousto me because I have seen it in myself
and others, but like big changes sincethe pandemic, you In people's ability
(04:26):
to just handle things and all of that,
you know, it's been interesting because IYou know, our experience personally of the
pandemic was also you know, because I wasin healthcare and we kept our office open.
I was also pregnant during thepandemic and had a pandemic baby.
Yes.
In June of 2020.
And so I witnessed because I was alsotaking care of a lot of the health
(04:50):
care workers that were so stressedout and so exhausted and so burnt out.
And then but also kind ofgoing through it myself.
And one of the things I wasactually thinking about this
today it's funny you mentioned it.
Thinking about, like, how, in particular,like, with women, like, how the pandemic
has shaped all of our work life balanceand what that means, and there are a
(05:14):
lot of women like me, like, part ofthe reason why I decided to commit was
because I wanted flexibility, being aworking parent, being, you know, the
daughter of parents that are gettingolder, and, I wanted the flexibility of
not having to go into an office everyday and have that business dependent
(05:35):
just on me showing up that day, andalso to have other employees that were
reliant on me to show up that day.
But you know, There was this studythat came out earlier this year in
the journal Work, where it lookedat specifically women in middle
(05:55):
age and why we were so burned out.
And they narrowed itdown to three factors.
One, that women tend tobe in a higher turnover.
Profession and anyway, like their,their, their jobs or their positions
tend to have a little bit more chaoticnature in general to we're kind of
(06:16):
like the sandwich generation wherelike we might be caring for our own
kids, but also caring for our parents.
where we have, you know, we're reallythe middle of two generations that
need some caregiving and attention.
But the third was so interesting tosee, like, in print was that We have
economically evolved so that women aresuper powerful in the workplace, but
(06:42):
societally, we still have very genderspecific roles of carrying the household
load of carrying the child care andthe, you know, parents caregiving as
well, like most of that falls on women.
So.
You know, we see this, but in, sincethe pandemic, there has been a lot of
(07:03):
the shift for women wanting to workfrom home because like, it's just so
much easier, but at the same time,It doesn't really help that balance
because, you know, we're in it.
Like, we're home.
There's dishes to be done.
There is laundry to be done.
There is grocery shopping to be done.
And if we default to those traditionalroles, then we're doing all of it.
(07:27):
Yes.
And I think, you know, the pandemic isreally, we're, I don't think we're out
of it, but I'd still feel like the cardshave still been tossed up in the air.
And not the companies don'treally know where everything's in.
I mean, you're seeing like big companieslike Amazon, they're mandating, everybody
goes back to the office now and they'vegradually phased that in, right?
Like last year it was just like threeor four days, like a hybrid, but.
(07:51):
You know, I think that women havesuch power in the in the workforce
that I think Those that are employeesand getting, being employed are going
to do what, you know, you and I dideventually and just say, I'm so capable
of doing something better on my own.
And what's the downside?
(08:12):
Well, that, that unseen labor, you know,I, I know that there's a phrase for it
that I'm probably missing, but that,that emotional home labor kind of thing.
I'm obsessed with this topic.
And I had someone on thepodcast who's a fair point.
Play deck expert.
You know, she does all the,all the fair play stuff.
And we talked about this a lot becausethere are just, every, almost every
(08:33):
woman I know, even if you have awonderful, like, very good partner,
it just, so much of the, the lifestuff ends up on the mom or the woman
or the wife or you know, whatever.
And it's, it's really, reallyhard to balance all those things.
Well, and in like, you know, in a, in aheterosexual couple with, you know, the
(08:55):
man, like, the husband going to work,like, part of that infrastructure is he,
like, his job, like my husband's job,and yes, I, like, I married the good guy,
like, I married the nice guy, like, 10out of 10, highly recommend, but His job
still has expectations of him showingup and being there, you know, and we see
(09:16):
this in the difference of just maternityleave and paternity leave, I guess.
Paternity leave right now is like, youknow, crazy to think about in certain
generations, but, you know, in millennialgenerations, like, we have family members
that are in millennial generations, like,They both took time off, you know, like
it is, it's shifting a little bit, butpart of why it's difficult for these later
(09:40):
generations to do that is because theexpectation of both gender roles are still
very much founded in traditional roles.
For sure.
I actually, I'm glad you said that too,because I, I always, I tend to selfishly
think of the woman's side, but thereare, I know some very, really, really
(10:00):
great men in, again, in a heterosexualcouple who one of them, a guy that I
know that's, I would consider prettyprogressive about his views, who was
like, oh, this guy I work with is takingpaternity leave for three months, like, I
can't believe he's leaving for that long.
Like, he was, he was reallycomplaining about it.
And I was like, Like, honestly, like,I'm glad that he's taking pictures,
but there is still like, there area lot of those gender roles that
(10:22):
are still out there and but yeah,it's, it's, it's all interesting.
Well, and we take on, I think there,women, I can speak for myself, like
I'm so much better at multitaskingthan, you know, than my husband, like
God love him, you know, but but Ithink we have different skill sets
(10:43):
and, you know, it's, it's, it's, It'seasier for a lot of us to do all that
juggling, and it's expected, and if itdoesn't get done, it falls, we are the
ones that shoulder that blame, too.
And I think the term, it's invisible,the invisible load, it's the mental load
that, that women are carrying, and Yeah.
(11:04):
I mean, and, and having, throwing a childin the mix just highlights everything.
Just forget it.
Forget it.
When there's someone elsethat needs you all the time.
One of the things that I explainedto my husband one time is that like,
it was his dad's birthday and I waslike, Hey, did you get your dad a gift?
He's just looks at mewith this like blank face.
I think he's a good one and hejust looks at me and I go, do you
(11:29):
understand that if we show up at.
Your parents house without a gift.
I'm the one that's going to look bad.
Not you.
It's not my dad.
It's your dad, but I willlook bad and I will be judged.
And your mom and your sister aregoing to talk about me behind my back.
And he's like, what?
And I'm like, just trust me.
It's going to happen.
So,
(11:50):
and you know, one of the things thatwe were talking about before the show
was just about how, like, you know,as professional organizers taking on.
Taking on that load of your client,in addition to everything else.
Yes.
And , one of the, one of thethings that we talk about is,
(12:10):
setting personal policies.
If you have a business and you have youhave your financial policy, like we had
a no show policy in our office, we have,I mean, you cannot go into any place
without signing a terms of service.
Right.
And so if we can take that concept andapply it to our lives, then we give our
(12:33):
lives a little bit more structure tobe able to default to those boundaries.
And so we talk about setting boundaries alot, but that could be very challenging.
And one of the ways to move overthat hump and to make it more
comfortable is to evaluate your life.
(12:55):
This is one of the things we do.
I love this, this little game.
Evaluate your life in terms ofenergy, not so much in terms of tasks
or responsibilities, but weigh theenergy that it takes to move forward.
from you and, and all of thoseevents that give you energy.
And so, for example, like if you exerciseand that's something that you enjoy and
(13:18):
that gives you energy, like that givesyou energy, how much energy is that?
But then if you have a draining client,you know, how much does that drain you?
And so being able to be very detailed andvery specific On what gives you energy
and what doesn't give you energy reallybegins to put a quantitative measure
(13:39):
to what you want for your policies andwhat you can do for your boundaries.
I love this.
Okay, so is it like do youliterally write things out?
Like, do you give things a number?
Here's what we do.
So, you could take a piece of paperand we start broad, like there's a few
different steps, but we start broad.
And so to take a piece of paper andyou're just going to write two columns.
(14:02):
So down the middle and thendown across two columns charges.
And I can never, drains, I can neverremember that word for whatever it is.
So positive and negative, right?
So charges and drains.
And then, and this is the key, is youhave to be, you have to be very detailed.
And you have to understand thatthis is an observation exercise.
(14:24):
This is not a measure ofhow much you love someone.
This is not a measure ofyour commitment to them.
That is not a measure of anythingother than sitting with this.
And saying, how does this make me feel?
So, you know, I have a four year old.
I love him.
I would kill for this kid.
I would die for this kid.
He gives me a ton of joy and aton of energy, but he's also four
(14:47):
years old and like a drain, right?
So does the fact that he goes onboth sides make me less of a parent?
No, because you have to acknowledgethe parts where you're giving so much
before you can understand what youhave to do to fill yourself back up.
And so if you can make that listand you start really, it's so.
(15:11):
You may just say, see, like you,maybe your list of drains is like 20
and your list of charges are five.
That's fine, because if you get a huge hitfrom each one of those, then that's okay.
But you have to be able to sitand feel, what does this do?
You know, when I have to give,what does this feel like?
(15:33):
And so that begins to give yousomething tangible to recognize that
Maybe some of the policies can besetting some boundaries around the
drains, you know, and they don't haveto be, you know, I had two policies
when I had my, my business, my firstbusiness, and this is my practice.
(15:55):
One, I refuse to be uncomfortableat work, and two, I refuse to
be uncomfortable in my own home.
Okay.
And so, what that did,so those seem very broad.
However, if there was a conflict inthe office, if there was, and I'm a
middle child, so I do not like conflict.
I do.
I'm an oldest child and I don't like
(16:15):
it
either.
So, if there, avoid it.
Yeah.
But this.
Forced me, like if there was a conflictwith a patient, if there was a conflict
with an employee, like I would rememberthat I had told myself I am not
going to feel uncomfortable at work.
And so what that meant wasI was not going to stew.
I was not going to stew.
(16:35):
And it put me into thismindset of solutions.
And I, it gave me that little jolt tosay, deal with it and deal with it now
and get it off of your plate because youdo not want to walk into your own place
of business and not want to be there.
Okay, I love this.
This is really good.
As an avoider, I can saythat this is really good.
(16:59):
But put it into some context thatfeels comfortable to you, you know?
I mean, I do not love confrontation, butI, hated being uncomfortable in a place
where I was creating that space morethan I did not like that confrontation.
And so having skills around dis youknow, and that's where like honing
(17:23):
my skills on How to communicate thosecrucial conversations, those critical
conversations and how to navigatethose so that you can take a, you know,
highly charged situation and diffuse itand actually come together as a team.
That was really helpful.
But if I hadn't had that underlyingpolicy, then it would have been so
(17:44):
easy to just avoid, avoid, avoid.
And so I also had that same policyin my home, which means that.
You know, not everybodyis welcome in my home.
And this is when, you know, Ihad a community based practice.
So, like, you run into everybodyand, like, it's not unusual, like, to
just see people in your front yard.
And so I set that space that, like, myhome was for my family and my friends.
(18:08):
And that meant that no matter whathappened outside of this space, I
knew that I was always coming to avery safe, very comfortable place.
And so that was really helpful.
But I can give you a couple ofother options that I actually
love that you may not think about.
And like, one of them was that like,No no work phone calls in the car.
(18:35):
I was gonna say, I actually wanted totalk to you about this because as you were
talking, the first thing that I thoughtof is with what we do for a living, the
amount of ways people have to contact youand like your work hours kind of never end
because someone's always in your space.
So that was like, actually, I'mglad you're talking about this.
It's one of the firstthings I thought about.
Yes.
And that is, I think, especially ifyou are a small business owner, there
(18:59):
is this, we were talking about likethe challenges and the stresses that
come with that is this, you know, thedesire for being available full time.
And also kind of this driving needthat you have to, because if you
miss out on that business, then,you know, you won't be able to pay
the bills and blah, blah, blah.
But what I can tell you is thatsetting, setting that space.
(19:26):
is going to exponentiallygrow your business.
And it will because what you're doingis you are concentrating that effort.
You are concentrating your business.
And so at the same time, you are alsocarving out that time for your own
replenishment and your own recovery time.
(19:47):
And so having those, and you have tojust say, okay, what makes sense to me?
What am I really missingthat I was enjoying?
And so, for example, I love So inthe car, I listen to podcasts or
I talk to my family, but there areno work phone calls in the car.
And so that sets that spaceagain for, that's on my terms.
(20:11):
I've also seen more and more emails comethrough from, you know, other colleagues
and other people, other people that justsay, I return emails on Monday, Tuesday.
Thursday, Friday.
And like, that's it.
Like that's their email.
And I love that.
Like, I love that.
One of the things that I have found isthat in business, happiness equals is
(20:37):
when reality exceeds the expectations.
So when you can set the expectationsof communication with your clients,
Then, if you stay within thoseexpectations that you have set that
work for you, then you're winning.
If you decide to go outside ofthose, then you're exceeding
(20:58):
their expectations already.
And so, you know, setting thesepersonal policies protect yourself,
but they also help to streamlineyour business by removing a lot
of that questioning clutter.
I think we have a lot of all of us,including myself, operate so much in
business out of a fear you know, andit's, it's, we can call it fear or FOMO or
(21:22):
there are probably a lot of names for it.
But I just think about what you'resaying is, Oh my gosh, if I don't
work on my business 24 hours a day,my business is going to implode.
No, your businessactually might be better.
If you say at five o'clock,my computer gets shut down or
I don't return client texts.
at nine o'clock at night.
And I actually had a client yesterdaywho sent me a text and she, she flat
(21:42):
out said, I really appreciated this.
It was like eight at night.
And she goes, I do not expect a response.
I'm just sending this whileI'm thinking about it.
I, and I was like, bless, I willhappily get back to her because she's
so nice and because she's so respectful.
Right.
And but setting those.
Those boundaries.
And I know boundaries is like sucha hot word and you know, probably
overused and misused and all thethings, but setting those actually
(22:05):
helps you be better at your job.
Even if you might have someonethat is like, you know what?
I didn't love that.
You didn't get back to meat nine o'clock last night.
You know what?
I might have just learned about youthat you might not be my person.
And this is, this is so much of,you know, kind of the bigger,
like, energy picture, right?
Because we hear boundariesand we, we, we think barrier.
(22:27):
And that's where a lot of the kind ofangst around it, around it comes in.
But it's, it's, you know, If you thinkof it as just, this is how I run my
business, this is how I run my personallife, then it becomes a non negotiable
and a very objective perspective.
(22:49):
If, and this is, again, like, a, youknow, words of wisdom, if you focus
on the money in your business, it'salways going to be about the money.
Yeah.
If you, and you're nevergoing to have enough.
I can tell you, you'll never have enough.
But if you are able to let go ofthat piece of it and trust in your
(23:12):
service and trust that you are goingto provide an exceptional service in
an exceptional way, To people, youwill never have to worry about money.
And that is one of the truths.
And like, what you're saying islike, what this does in a big
picture is by saying, these are theparameters in which I'm going to work.
(23:36):
You will create a business inwhich people will embrace that.
And, you know, my dad'sa physical therapist.
He's, he's been practicing for.
I mean, 50 something years now,and he always said people will
come to you because of you and theywon't come to you because of you.
And that's exactly it.
(23:57):
You want to create, you're, you'renot trying to be, you cannot
be all things to all people.
That is a true, true statement.
So, by being who you are and beingtrue to what you need and to being
true to what you want to do, you willinvite people in that want that, too.
And you will detract people that will not.
(24:20):
And they'll come in.
They'll try to come in, butthey will leave very quickly.
And you don't want those people.
Because when you You
don't want them.
When I go back to, I love, it's,it's so simple, but it's so smart.
Like when you talked about the chargesand the drains, it's just like a phone.
We all, all of us know what drainsour phone down and all of us knows
how long it, we all know how longit takes to recharge our phone.
(24:43):
If you think about you as a human beingas that phone battery and are, I think
also really brutally honest with yourselfabout what actually charges and drains.
Like setting those boundaries.
And by the way, if you don't like the wordboundary, pick a different word, but set
those parameters for yourself is just,again, a way to say, I'm actually doing
(25:07):
something really good for myself and thepeople that I serve happily because I
want to continue to serve them happily.
Yes.
And that, like, you're inthis for the long haul.
This is a marathon.
And when I work with people wherethey've actually, like, and I've been
through all of this myself, you know,I understand what this feels like.
But when they are really struggling,one of the things that we do
(25:29):
is we say, Okay, now I want youto look back for those charges.
Because a lot of times you've gotten tothis point and you've lost so much of
yourself along the way, that You knowwhere you are now, it's unrecognizable.
You know, we wear all of thesedifferent hats and sometimes the
one that says Camilla, you know, orMelissa has just gotten so tiny that
(25:55):
it doesn't even seem to fit anymore.
And so.
And what we do is we have toget to the core of who you
are and what makes you tick.
And so we look back on, you know,the past 20, 30 years, whatever, and
we say, okay, what did you used todo that made you really feel tick?
(26:16):
Great.
That you could do forever.
You know, did you used to paint?
Did you used to exercise?
Did you used to sit and read a book?
You know, what was it that youreally loved doing that you have
had to lose along the way thatreally you loved about yourself?
Because those are the things, right?
(26:37):
Those are the things that whenyou've gotten to this point and
you feel like you've lost, you'velost who you are because you're
wearing all of these things.
We have to say, okay, what was it thatreally helped fill you up and then
being able to incorporate those thingsback in made you feel you that helps
(26:59):
to build that those charges back up.
But along the way, you probablyhave lost a lot of them.
I was gonna say, I was, I was actuallygonna joke, except for I realized
it probably isn't even really ajoke, I'm like, what if people don't
even know what those things are?
Because, I mean, that, that's, that'sreal too, I think that we've lost some
of those things that, of like, whatis it that legitimately lit me up, and
(27:22):
I was so So excited about and what,what does that even look like anymore?
And you might have to dig pretty deep tostart thinking about some of those things.
And that doesn't mean that you'regonna be doing that exact same thing.
Sure.
Right.
'cause it's, it's too easy tosay, well, I, you know, I don't
live in the mountains anymore.
I can't go hiking.
Okay.
Okay.
That's fine.
But what's the essence of it?
Sure.
What was the essence of that?
(27:42):
You know, and, and forme it was gardening.
Like we grew up, we had a certifiedorganic farm growing up just for
funsies, you know, and, but we.
That was so much of my childhood.
And at the time I was like,Oh God, weeding again.
So much work.
Yeah.
So much work.
But as an adult, like to be ableto have that time outside, like in
(28:03):
nature, growing your own food, like ithas such a deeper meaning to me now.
And like, it's so muchof what I just love.
To do as you see the dead plant behind me.
That's great.
I appreciate that because I, as someonewho does not have a green thumb, but,
but this is actually, I'm glad we'retalking about this too, because when I
think about, you know, what's the, youknow, kind of, what's the connection
(28:26):
between how we prevent burnout and otherthings in ourselves as business owners,
but also how do we help our clients?
I can just think right now, just asyou started to say that I'm like, I can
catalog a bunch of clients that I justthought about off the top of my head
that as we're going through their things,we'll say like, Oh wow, these knitting
needles have seven inches of dust on them.
(28:47):
Did you ever learn how to knit?
Oh yes.
I used to knit all the time,but I haven't done it in years.
I have.
And that's maybe a silly example,but it's, it's all sorts of things.
It's hobbies people used to have orthings people used to like to do.
And they, they just don't.
They don't do that anymore.
And then they're crushed by thestuff that they've all kept,
you know, the whole thing.
It, it, there are lots of thoseexamples that we see all around us.
(29:09):
That may just be, it may bebecause that was just, you know,
a moment in time for them, but italso may be something meaningful.
And until you sit down and exploreit, then you don't really know.
But the whole point hereis prevention, right?
So like, we don't wantto get to that point.
We want to be able to have thatbalance throughout our whole
(29:32):
careers and our whole business.
That's what we're looking for.
And these are the things that we lookat, you know, along with all the healthy
stuff, you know, like eating well andsleeping and, you know, those types
of things, which are very important.
It's a challenge, but I think gettingto the point where you trust what
you're doing and you trust yourselfthat that's going to be enough.
(29:55):
And then trusting that you are going tohave whatever it is that you need, you're
gonna get it, and you're working too hard,and it will happen but you have to protect
yourself in order to have the future.
All right.
Thank you, Dr.
Moore and I will be back tomorrow.
(30:17):
With part two of myconversation have a great day.
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