223 | "Don't Be Like Us!" - The Pro Organizer Studio Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey, pro organizers.
My name is Melissa Klug andyou are listening to the pro
organizer studio podcast.
Professional organizingchanged my entire life.
After 20 years of working at hugecompanies, I started working for myself.
I opened a professional organizingbusiness, grew it to six
figures, and I never looked back.
Now I get to spend all day, every dayteaching organizers around the world

(00:25):
how to find clients, how to marketand sell yourselves, how to turn this
business into what you want it to be.
Whether you have been in businessfor 15 minutes or 15 years, you
have a home at Pro Organizer Studio.
I'm excited that you're here.
Let's get started.
Hey, pro organizers, it's Melissa,and today I wanna tell you with my

(00:48):
friend Missi, how not to be like us.
How not to be like me, andyou will understand a little
bit more once we get into it.
But before we get started, I justwant to give everyone a reminder.
My Organizing Essentials course,which was made straight from my
heart about my favorite subject,which is organizing with clients.

(01:09):
We have a wonderful community ofpeople in Organizing Essentials, and
all we do is talk about how to bea better organizer for our clients.
So if you are trying to learn a littlebit better how to work with clients,
how to work through some of thepsychology of clients, why they won't.
Say goodbye to things, any ofthose difficult client situations.

(01:30):
Organizing Essentials is for you.
We are closing on May 31st when wereopen, our price will be going up
significantly, so I would love foryou to get in before that deadline.
If you want to go to pro organizerstudio.com/oe, you can sign up there.
It's $249 for lifetime access and youget one Zoom a month with me and I

(01:50):
would love to have you in our group.
Alright, so without further ado,my friend Missi, and I wanna
tell you how to not be like us.
Here we go.
Have a great week Organizers.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: i'm going to look up what (02:01):
undefined
you said to me earlier today.
Okay.
Because you said the intro.
Yes, I did.
I did play it for Andy.
Okay.
Hold on.
Okay.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: I just started the intro of our podcast. (02:14):
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So this is a cautionary tale.
Please do the opposite of everythingwe do unless you'd like to burnout
and stress yourself out, and alsostart dropping balls left and right,
including family, friends, andrelationships that are important to you.
Okay, let's dive into it.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: All right. (02:27):
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And I said perfect.
No notes.
Right.
First of all this is going up.
You will have heard Missi twoweeks ago if you listen regularly.
Two, I think two episodes ago Ihad Missi on and Missi's back.
I mean, you have to listen tome every week so you can listen
to Missi once every other week.

(02:47):
But this started very organically.
Missi and I are in real life friends,and we both are organizers in the
Twin Cities, and we frequently talkabout, you know, clients and situations
of business and all the things.
And we realize, I mean,we have the same problem.
Is that fair?
That is accurate, yes.
Same.
Multiple problems that are similar.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: This particular one we're gonna discuss (03:08):
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today is that we both are Enneagram twos.
Yes.
We like to make people happy.
We like to help people.
It's part of the reason we got intothe profession that we're in, right?
Yes.
Okay.
And sometimes we take it too far

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: sometimes. (03:26):
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And I don't like buzzwords a lot.
And I also think that there's so manywords right now that are like vastly
overused but really what we're talkingabout is having good or not great
boundaries with clients, worries, blurringthe lines, is what I like to call it.
And I wanna back up.
So I've done some podcasts aboutEnneagram and I am a person who as part

(03:50):
of my career path in life, I've had totake a bunch of you know, personality
tests and other things like that.
Myers Briggs obviously,and a bunch of others.
But to me, I. Enneagram, when I firstheard about it at kind of at the start
of my work at Pro Organizer Studio,I had never heard of it before.
And Laurie Palau was on andshe was talking about it.

(04:11):
And Enneagram to me, describes mypersonality so effectively, and
also I believe it, I have used itwith other people in my life and it
describes them so effectively thatit's actually, I think, a tad scary.
Do you agree?

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yeah. (04:28):
undefined
Yes.
And they always tell you try not toguess anybody else's type or whatever.
And I think that's probably true across.
All personality tests a hundred percent.
And it's really hard not to,you know, to just like wonder.
But for example, when Andy figuredout his number, I had no hot clue.
I was like, wait, that's what'sgoing on inside your head?

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Interesting. (04:49):
undefined
Okay.
There is a there's a clipfrom the show, New Girl.
That one of the characters goes, are youtelling me that you just sit around all
day and think about what other people arethinking and feeling and it's just yes.
Don't you?
They're like, no.
And that, that sounds exhausting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Enneagram two.

(05:09):
Yes, it sounds exhausting.
Enneagram two is the helper.
And of course I have aspects, weall have aspects of other Enneagram
types in our personality, but twois, I always say I'm a hard two.
And what that means to me is likeso many of those characteristics,
like I definitely subsumemyself in helping others.

(05:31):
I will do things that are adetriment to myself because I don't
wanna disappoint someone else.
I've told this story before, but I sawon Instagram one time that someone was
like, Enneagram two gets kidnapped.
And I said, the person in theback of the car, and she'd be
like, Hey, Mr. Kidnapper, youhaven't stopped for a while.
Are you tired?
Do you want me to drive?
Like I have a snack in my bag.
Would you like a snack?
I'm like, oh my gosh, I've never beendescribed so perfectly in my entire life.

(05:53):
Right.
That's a great one becauseyou and I are like that.
And we are also in a helping industrythat can lead to challenging situations.
Yeah.
And if left untreated burnout.
Yes.
And if left untreated withouttaking, please see your doctor.
Yeah.
We need to think of a name for a drug thatwe can take for some sort of prescription

(06:17):
medication that we could take.

undefined
For this condition, you may need a nap.
And also to say no to some things.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio (06:23):
Yes.
But the whole point of this is Missiand I were having a very organic
conversation about a client she had, andthis client had, let me just say, asked
her for a 45 second turnaround thing.
Is that a fair way to say it?

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yeah, I had a client where we started (06:41):
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with a large team of six on day one.
Got an amazing amount of work doneand we were coming back for day two.
It's the evening before daytwo, and I get a text that says,
Hey, my kiddo was home sick.
And then the, their feverjust spiked tonight.
I really don't think it's a goodidea for you guys to come tomorrow.
And I was like, no problem.

(07:03):
Totally understand.
None of us wanna get sick either.
Hope he feels better.
We'll, I'll send you somereschedule options tomorrow.
Great.
I texted the team, Hey, pleaseconfirm, you know, five other people.
Please confirm that you will notdrive to this location tomorrow.
And they're all like confirm.
Great.
Perfect.
I go to bed.
I wake up in the morning andI've already re-planned my day.

(07:25):
I had canceled two meetings.
I put 'em back on the calendar.
I'm getting ready to go to the firstone and I look at my phone and there's
a text sent real late at night that'sHey, I think I can make it work.
Can you all still come?
And I'm like.
Oh my gosh.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Now we talked about the text came. (07:42):
undefined
The text came to youat one in the morning.
It did.
You're seeing it at what?
Six?
I think.
Six, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: And I was just like, okay, Missi, (07:52):
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this is a really great opportunityto practice your boundaries.
Like you need to say no.
This is an obvious No.
The whole team has already canceled.
Canceled means canceled.
We've canceled it.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: And I will also add that Missi and I (08:03):
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align on something else very specific.
We love it when people cancel plans on us.
We love a cancel plan.
I never have a cancellation policy in mybusiness, which maybe you can argue is a
boundary that I need, but I don't because100% of the time someone cancels on me.
I'm like cool.
That is great news to me.

(08:24):
And you felt the sameway about this situation.
Always Yes.
Because there is

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: always other things we can be doing (08:29):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: always. (08:31):
undefined
Even

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: if it's just oh my gosh, I (08:32):
undefined
really need a nap this week.
I mean, you know, there Ican fill the day, no problem.
There's always a running to-do list.
And I started adding some thingsin of oh, I can run this errand
that I've been putting off.
And to be fair, it was for that client.
So I was like, okay, day's beenreconfigured and now she wants this back.
And I'm like, oh boy.
So I put on my big girl boundary pants,I guess, and it's just you know what?

(08:58):
No, you know, I've already told theteam, no, we, they, some may have
already rescheduled their days.
I've rescheduled mine.
Like I'm not even availableat the start time anymore.
Let's just reschedule.
Here are some dates.

And I, as your friend was like, good for you.
I'm so proud of you.
That is great.
This is crazy.
And you can't, you know, totallychange around 72 people's schedule.
But I was like, so happy for you, right?
Yeah.
You were cheering me on.
I was.
Because you needed the day.
Yeah, you needed the day and youreally had planned other things.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: So then, and then duh, and then (09:32):
undefined
the replies start coming in, youknow, are you sure there's not
even one person who can come today?
I really wanna get this done.
Those other dates you sent me don't work.
This is the, it's now or never,essentially was the vibe.
And I was just like, oh gosh.
And I know how close we are togetting the house to a place

(09:53):
where she can really fully relax.
And I was like, I'll see what I can do.
And Melissa was just like, oh hell no.
Like I did, I think Iactually said, oh hell no.
She is like you.
No, you, yeah.
Anyway, not a fan then of mechanging my mind and just opening

(10:16):
up the door to the possibility.
So I check with the team andI get one reply back almost
immediately of yeah, let's do it.
Game on.
Like I'm in the right head space for it.
Let's go.
Let's just get it finished.
This is from the team member who'sgonna build most of the things.
She's got her drill ready, youknow, we're putting holes in
the wall, things are happening.
And I was like, well, okay.
I mean, I really couldn't do itwithout that one person because

(10:38):
I'm, I don't build anything.
So I'm like, okay, even if it's just thetwo of us, we can go for a few hours and
just get like the minimum amount done.
Because now I have it in myhead that I, I do need a break.
And I would like somedowntime, not hands-on work.
So I was able to recall four outof the six of us for all of them

(11:00):
partial days, not a complete day.
And the client was so dang sweet andappreciative and grateful, and we got
the house to like such a good spot.
You could see the relief.
She couldn't stop talkingabout how relieved she was.
And I was like, ah.
Because the one thing Melissahad said to me was, you're gonna

(11:22):
be mad at yourself if you go.
And I replied, I'm gonna be madat myself either way because.
Who put me in this situation andshe goes, well, that's a fair point.

Yes.
And in my defense, yeah, when yousaid at the end of the day when you're
like, she was so happy and this was aparticular situation where you really
were helping her a tremendous amount.
Yeah.
And she was so happy.
And she was so relieved.
And I was like.
Good for you.
Like you made the right choice,like your gut was right.
That it was the rightthing for you to go and do.

(11:55):
And one of the things we'll talkabout throughout this whole thing
is it would've been a problem forfuture you this thing was still gonna
be on your calendar at some point.
And to some degree it was,let's just get it done.
Yeah.
And then you know, it would be a goodending versus a womp kind of an ending.

undefined
Or like a, we're not sure when we're gonnaget to this again, and now you're on the
waiting list, waiting for somebody elseto reschedule and it'd be a whole thing.
So yeah.
I do agree that I'm grateful thatit's all wrapped up now in a nice
pretty bow even, you know, it's good.
And yet it was really hard toI held my boundary for like
less than an hour, you know?

(12:32):
Yeah.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I think it was more like 20 minutes. (12:33):
undefined
But anyway, whatever for that20 minutes, I was really proud.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Probably true. (12:41):
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I really, yeah, and I think it's sotricky because there are times where it's
totally appropriate to hold the boundaryand be like, no, we're not doing it.
And there are times where it's it is.
Okay.
And maybe even write orappropriate to bend those rules.
Yes.
And that's different for everybody.
And so kind of navigating that is tricky.

(13:03):
Yes.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: And I do wanna get into that. (13:04):
undefined
Before we get into that, I would liketo tell everyone why I am a hypocrite.
Would you like to also hear that?
I mean, I know I would

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: like really giddy for this part (13:13):
undefined
because this is how this whole ideagot started because of what happened to
both of us within a 24 hour time span.

Yes.
I mean, when I tell you we are recordingthis podcast on Friday afternoon.

undefined
I think

we started this conversation about, do you
know what we need a podcast about howyou and I are really bad at boundaries
at eight hours ago or maybe, probablynot, maybe a little earlier than that,
but maybe I guess Go, do you wannarecord a podcast about it this afternoon?
Let's do it.
Yeah.
Because it's both fresh in our mind.
I would like to explain to you why thatstory that Missi just told about Melissa
was so bad and said, hold the boundary.
Why I'm a fricking hypocrite.

(13:47):
Okay.
Because here's why I have had, I'vehad I'm not gonna bore everyone with a
story like Missi has been bored with it.
I have had two very stressful weeks.
And just going from one thing to another.
No sleep.
You know that Lady Gaga Instagramsound like bus club, another club.
No sleep.
That is how my last two weeks havebeen only with less vocal talent.

(14:10):
And so last night so I woke upyesterday at five in the morning.
I had about five hours of sleep.
I had an intensely full day.
I had a client that was super hard work.
Then I went straight from that totry to make myself look presentable
because it was softball senior night.
So getting tons of pictures taken.
So I had to actually look like I wasput together and not sweaty and gross.

(14:34):
From my client's house.
There were two softball games.
The wind was blowing 212miles an hour dust everywhere.
So four hours of softball.
Then we went from four hours of softballinto softball, senior banquet, and
I got home at 10 o'clock last night.
Okay.
So I had a what?
15 hour day.
So this whole day it was a lot by the way.

(14:56):
It was lovely.
But it was a lot.
You can, both of those things can be true.
And I was messaging Missi andseveral of my other friends.
I'm doing nothing tomorrow.
I'm sleeping in, I'm gonna sleepas late as I want to, and I got an
office day and the weather's gonnabe cruddy and I'm just gonna snuggle
in and I'm gonna sit at my laptop.
I'll probably have my laptop in bed.

(15:16):
I'm gonna have such a nice day andI'm not going to leave my house.
So the first problem wasyou said that out loud.
Well correct.
I did, I should have kept my feelingsto myself, which I'm not good at.
First problem was, couldsleep as late as I want.
Body was like, 6:00 AMchip, chop, let's go.

(15:36):
Okay.
Wide awake at 6:00 AM and I'm like,I really try to go back to sleep.
It wasn't happening.
Okay, fine.
So I'm up.
So I start working and one ofthe things that I do is I text
a long-term client of mine.
I've done a huge move for her and wehad a few little straggly things that
she wasn't in a particular hurry for.
But I had been putting her off on thesestraggly things for a couple weeks.

(15:57):
Okay.
And so I texted her and I'm like, Hey, Iknow that we've both kind of had a week.
She has also had a very crazy week.
And I said, so I justwanna kind of reconvene.
You can have any day you want.
Next week I will make it happen.
And she responds back, I'mnot doing anything today.
And I would really love totackle some of these things.
And I go, oh, Missi is gonna filet me.

(16:23):
I'm gonna get so roasted by Missi McKown.
And so I just go I get, you know, thelike Devil Angel on your shoulder.
Right?
I was doing the DevilAngel, and I was like, okay.
I was so excited to stay home, but Isaid the alternative is going to be,
first of all, I have been promisingthat I would we're a little loosey

(16:44):
goosey with scheduling this client.
And I'm like, I have beenpromising her for a couple
weeks and she's excited today.
And I'm not like, I'm notso like exhausted, can't get
outta bed, that I can't do it.
And I'm like, and also it's gonna bea problem for me at another point.
It's gonna be a problem for me Monday,Tuesday, Wednesday, another day

(17:05):
that I have another stressful week.
Why don't I just go and do it?
And so my hypocritical.
But left the house to go to my client.
I was able to crank out, we did a nicelittle tour, made a list of the things
that needed to get done, and I saidto her, what would make you happy if I
could complete one thing for you today?
And she was very cool.

(17:26):
She didn't expect me to do all seventhings and sh we came up with it
would make me really happy to do X,Y, and Z. And I said, no problem.
And I did those thingsand she was thrilled.
And I was thrilled that I'm notgonna have to do it on Monday.
Yep.
And now I'm home.
But again, big giant hypocrite.

(17:49):
Yeah.
Because I was really so proud of Missi.
And if I had gone to her thismorning and said, what should I do?
She would've said, stay home.

undefined
But you didn't, instead you said.
Remember yesterday when I toldyou not to go to that client's
house and you went anyway?
And I said, what did you do?
Yes, you did.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Because you knew I was feeling guilty (18:08):
undefined
about something and I had to come clean.
But I think I get it though.
Yeah.
And the commonality is so here'smy defensiveness for myself.
First of all, I am very bad at sayingno, I don't like disappointing people.
I am actively working onthat as a human being.
And because I do realize that I reallydo suboptimize my own life quite a

(18:34):
bit because I can't say no and I don'twant that because it really does,
as you said, can lead to burnout.
And I am personally on the razor'sedge of that point right now.
Yeah.
And I don't want that.
Right.
For myself or my family or thepeople that I like to serve.
Yeah.
But I would also say that itall depends on the person that

(18:56):
you're willing to do it for.
And the reason I said yes to this persontoday was because she's insanely nice.
Her house is lovely.
I enjoy spending time working with her.
It's not a very challenging,stressful situation to go into.
Right.
And she has paid me many thousandsof dollars in the last six weeks.

(19:22):
Recent days.
Yeah.
Many thousands.
And so I think you were kind of in thesame position with this other client.
Not only were there some, you know,really tangible things that you wanted
to finish for her, but you were like, shehas spent a lot of money with me already.

undefined
And I understand why she's stressed andI know that we can help take that away.
And i'm like, this is something we can do.
You know, I got a few team members toagree to come back and we can do it.
We can fix these areas of her housewhere she's just been literally
just stuck and can't figure it out.

(19:59):
And she's we talked about this yesterday.
We love it when clients are exuberant,you know, about the work that's been done.
Yes.
And when they're like, that'lldo, you're just you cry.
What do you mean that'll do?
It's

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: great. (20:11):
undefined
How dare you're,

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: you know? (20:13):
undefined
Yeah.
And so when you're working with someonewho's just oh my gosh, this is the best.
And yes, you understand my brain, likethere's no thing as an altruistic act.
Right.
And we talked about this last time,like you get something from that too.
Yeah.
There are people that you just wantto help that you're like, okay, it

(20:33):
is within my power to do let's do it.
Let's just bend.
I, you know, it's three o'clock and I am.
Mostly done with work.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Yeah, and that's a great point. (20:43):
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I'm sitting here, I've been atmy house for an hour, you know,
I was there, I think I lostfour hours of my do nothing day.
And I'm still fine.
It's three in the afternoon.
After we get done here, I willprobably go take a little nap and
then start the rest of my evening.
I, but I think it's a combination.
Like I can, I know that there are a lotof organizers that want give me a 1, 2, 3,

(21:04):
4, 5 step process to how I would decide.
I can't do that.
But what I can do is I did somemental calculus of, okay, let me
put all these things together.
She's an important client.
She's given me a very lucrative referral.
She's an incredibly nice person.
I like her house, blah, blah, blah.
All those things.
I go, I do that calculus and Igo, this is the right decision.
Yeah.
I would not have said yes today.

(21:27):
To a vast number of other people.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Sure. (21:30):
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To the people that canceled last minute.
Correct.
To the people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I understand.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I have a guy that I've told Missi (21:35):
undefined
about who just keeps asking mefor a weekend or he'll email me
and ask me to come the next day.
I'm not gonna do it for him.

undefined
I

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: will do it for someone that, that (21:47):
undefined
mental calculus gives you thefive green check marks of Yeah.
This makes sense for me toblur that line a little bit.

undefined
Yeah, that makes sense.
One of the things you wanted to bring uptoo is you can swing the other way too
and be like on the super rigid scale.

Yes.
So one of the things that we weretalking about is, so we could say
that you and I have some problemswith boundaries on one end.
I also believe one of my corebeliefs of what makes success,
what easy for me to say.
What makes a successful organizer issomething that is not inherent to a lot

(22:27):
of organizers, which is flexibility.
And what I mean by that is there are alot of organizers who come from their
brain is so organized as well thatthey're like, I need a set of steps.
I need to know this is a rule and thenthis is a rule and we don't violate
those rules, that type of thing.
And that's just howyour brain works, right?

(22:48):
Yeah.
What I see a lot is, I appreciate, andI think it is really smart when people
have those boundaries of things that youknow, I always say if you're going to be
resentful of it, then you shouldn't do it.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: But (23:01):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I also believe very much that you (23:02):
undefined
can make so many boundaries and sohave so many rigid rules that you
are actually not servicing yourclient in a way that makes sense.
And sometimes bending those boundariesor bending those rules in the
right case is actually going to getyou so much more in the long run.

(23:22):
For sure.
Yeah.
And knowing where that line is.
And by the way, you get to makethe, you get to make all the rules.
Right.
And if you have, if you are a verystrong, like I will never ever, under any
circumstance work on a Monday afternoon.
And you have a client that's theonly day I can work is Monday.
You're like, I'm sorry, you'regonna have to go somewhere else.

(23:44):
That is totally within your right to do.
You just also have to understandyou might be sub-optimizing
certain parts of your business.
Sure.
And that's your right.

undefined
Yeah.
And I think there's also room torecognize that, you know, we can
change our own mind next week.
You know, the exact samesituation could come up and I,
you know, Hey, I changed my mind.
I know I canceled yesterday.
But can you still pull things together?
And if, you know, if it's not a goodweek for you, you can just be like, no.

(24:13):
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
Our

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: next availability is blah. (24:15):
undefined
Right.
And I do that a lot.
I mean, I'm tattling onmyself about my bad behaviors.
I'm not telling you about all thetimes that I have good behaviors, and
I have really, I have been workingon that in myself recently because I
recognize that me burning out or menot wanting to do certain parts of

(24:38):
my job anymore would be detrimental.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Maybe we should talk about the (24:40):
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things we are doing Well, 'cause tobe honest, I do, I agree with you.
I do feel like I've beenbetter with boundaries and
saying, yes, we can do that.
No, we can't.
Here's why.
Here's when we can do those things.
And so this one just really caught meby surprise because I, I said no, and
then caved and then that felt weird.

Yeah.
Well, and the one thing too, again,not to keep on this one situation
you had because it was very unique.
But one of the things that I dobelieve, and I said it to you in our
back and forth, was I really do believethis about a lot of our clients.
In a lot of ways, we are havingto retrain our clients, right?
We are having to retrain their brains.
We're having to retrain theirbehaviors, all of the things.

(25:25):
And so one of the things I saidto you is sometimes you have to
treat a client like a small child.
And I have seen this beforewith some of my clients of
you're rewarding bad behavior.
And I don't mean you in this situation,but just it's about the overall it, I
reward a lot of bad behavior if I have aclient, you know, we were talking about,
I don't have a cancellation policy, butI have had a client that I've had to

(25:45):
say, Hey, I can't have you cancel threeminutes beforehand, four times in a row.
We've gotta talk about that, right?
When you reward that behavior, sometimesyou then enable a client, by the way.
That includes behavior.
Like it's not even aboutan appointment, right.
If the client is texting youat all hours of the day and
night and you're responding.

(26:05):
If the client is asking you, we see thisin IO a lot, a client like gets the scope
of the project and then they immediatelycreep the scope of the project.
There was a woman in IO the other daythat had a situation where the, she
had given the client a proposal and theclient was like, oh, this is too much.
Can we scale it back?
And she's yeah, I can do X, Y, and Z.But then the client still wanted her

(26:27):
to do the X, Y, and Z even though shedidn't want to pay for it and Right.
All of this is within ourcontrol of saying, Hey.
We need to talk about we're notgonna do this, or you do not have to
respond to a client just 'cause theytext you at nine o'clock at night.
That type of thing.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Oh yeah. (26:45):
undefined
Yes.
That was my favorite, like to be ableto respond, to be like, Hey, I'm with
family, I'll get to this tomorrow.
You know, because I do wanna say Isaw this, I mean, not even nine, like
sometimes I'm cutting it off at six.
Yeah.
Today I'm gonna be cutting it

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: off at four. (27:01):
undefined

undefined

It's

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Friday. (27:03):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: But so yeah. (27:06):
undefined
I just want people to think about, it'snot just, there are a lot of behaviors
that we end up doing in our businessthat then give our clients permission.
And I have found that in myselfbefore of I will be annoyed
that a client is texting me.
And then I'm like, well, how manyother times have I texted them
back at seven o'clock on a Sunday?

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Right, right, right. (27:26):
undefined

Yeah.
That's a me problem.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: I know. (27:30):
undefined
Yeah.
And that was one of the things wetalked about too, is usually if we're
frustrated about something with aclient, it's usually something we did.
Yes.
And it's easier to tonot look at ourselves.

Yeah.
Why do you think it's so hard for us?
I mean, I know the answer forme, but why is it hard for you to
have these kinds of boundaries?

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Oh man. (27:56):
undefined
Should we talk about my childhood?
Yes.
Lay down on the couch.
Yeah.
Henry's moved.
I can lay down time for therapy.
Yeah.
No, but truly though, I think a lot ofit does come from, I'll speak for myself.
Growing up in a house where therewas a lot of unpredictability and a

(28:17):
lot of having to grow up quickly fromparents getting divorced and them
having, you know, my mom having moreresponsibility outside of the home.
I became a grownup a littlebit faster than normal.
And so I have always been theperson who's looking after other
people and making sure they're okay.

(28:37):
Very much organizing, fits.
Like I, you know, here's an opportunityto help somebody feel better.
Great.
Sign me up.
And so then when that personis saying, oh, your choice is
not what I was expecting, itliterally tugs at my heartstrings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dang it.
You know, because I do really careabout, I know we're I keep bringing

(29:02):
it back to this one because itwas just what happened this week.
But I really do care about that clientand want them to be happy and want
them to have a home that makes themfeel calm and peaceful and relaxed
that they can enjoy without stress.
So when given the opportunity tomake it happen that day, and I
could, I was just like, okay, yeah.
You know, you Okay.

(29:23):
Our favorite movie Ferris Bueller'sDay Off Cameron in the car.
I'll go.
I'll go.
I'll go.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I'll go. (29:28):
undefined
Okay.
Okay.
I'll go.
Yes.
That.
If you don't dunno what we'retalking about, just go run.
I, if you do not know every wordto Ferris Bueller's day off, I need
you to go and rectify that Right.
At this very moment,

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: I'm sure to streaming (29:42):
undefined
absolutely nowhere, but buy it.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Oh, I bet it is. (29:45):
undefined
I bet you can find it.
Oh yeah.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Okay. (29:48):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: It's a classic. (29:49):
undefined
I think that's really true.
I think that you know, so manythings, whether we want them or
not come back to our childhood.
Right.
And Sure.
I mean, that, that's when allof the things are formed, right?
That's when your core

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: personality, our beliefs and our (30:01):
undefined
beliefs about the world and how weshould act and respond in it are
made by like age eight, you know?
Yes.
And so it takes some real deep neuropathway work to shift and change those.
And so it's still, it's very muchmy knee jerk default reaction Yes.
Is to people, well.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: And yeah. (30:21):
undefined
And I am, I'm a very deep peoplepleaser and I also, I make this
joke, but it's not really a joke.
You know, sometimes most jokeshave a lot of truth in 'em.
I go, validation is my lovelanguage when someone tells me
that I am a pretty princess.
Yeah.
You know, oh my gosh,this room is so amazing.
One of my clients called me magicallast week and I was like, thanks.
I know you

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: could (30:42):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: live off of magical (30:42):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: for three days. (30:43):
undefined
Empower that.
I really

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: care that. (30:44):
undefined
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, I really I wish I didn't, but I'mvery I very much thrive on this person
appreciates me, so I'm sure that somebodycan do a deep analysis of you didn't get
enough love or whatever that looks like.
Right.
But I do really like when I am able tohelp people and when I go, oh, I am doing

(31:07):
something that makes their life easier andI really thrive and they appreciate it.
Yeah.
They, I thrive on that.
Yeah, I hear that.
That's why when we had the conversationabout it, it was a friend of ours
who a client had been like, oh, okay.
Not as appreciative as anyof us would want, you know?
I'm like no.
I need more than that.
And it's no, I'm a service provider.

(31:28):
You're paying me.
And you can just belike, okay, cool, thanks.
Or not even that.
And you're still paying me and I'm done.
But I'm like, no I need more,I need to tell me that I did a
good job and pat me on the head.

undefined
It's always fun when you when youcan see like the excitement in their
eyes or they're literally jumpingup and down or you're getting
a hug, you know, there's yeah.
So yeah, maybe we do need more

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: therapy. (31:51):
undefined
I know I do.
Yeah.
But I think that's part of it too.
And that's why.
Sometimes I, and I am, like I said,you know, I do wanna praise myself
a little bit that I am doing so muchbetter on this because I think even
four or five years ago, I would'vejust say jump and I'll say how high?
And I'm Yeah.
So much better at saying,sorry, that doesn't work for me.

(32:14):
I mean, the client

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: that (32:15):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: No, but checking your (32:15):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: time. (32:16):
undefined

Yeah.
The client that keeps asking fora Saturday, I've said, I am really
sorry, but I cannot work on Saturdays.
It just isn't going to happen.
Yeah.
Please pick a weekday and I'll be there.
Yeah.
I have gotten so much betterearly in my organizing career.
I would do anything, I would do anything.
I would go anywhere.

(32:38):
I wouldn't care.
And yeah, I don't do that anymore.
So

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: So it was literally like client number. (32:42):
undefined
Two, I think.
And at the time I was fullyemployed, so I was only taking
organizing clients on Saturday.
Okay.
And so we had something scheduled forSaturday and at the last minute he's
like, Hey, Hey, I need to reschedule youknow, can you give me some other dates?
And I said, well, I could do Sunday.
So I show up at his house onSunday, I do the work, and he

(33:06):
goes, can I be honest with you?
And he was very happy with thework, but he was like trying to
give me some like business guidance.
And I said, sure.
And he goes, your hours suck.
Amazing.
It was, and I laughed right outloud and I said, well, thank you.
I said, my actual hours are Saturdaysonly because I do work a full-time job
and I'm just doing this on Saturdays.

(33:27):
I said, but Saturday didn't work for you.
So I moved it to Sunday andhe felt like such a jerk.
And he was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
I said, no.
It like, literally that's a me issueand my availability, so I hear you.
But yeah, it was just funny.
You know, I've never everworked a Sunday again.
'cause I was like, that was terrible.

(33:48):
I don't wanna do that.

Yeah.
Early in my career Iworked seven days a week.
Sunday was just another day.
Yeah.
And I absolutely don't do that anymore.
Yeah.
And I will only do a Saturday underthe most dire of special circumstances.
Sure.
And I. I can tell you that my groupchat, which includes you and two other
people, I did a Saturday at one pointrecently and I got roasted immediately.

(34:16):
I had, why are you doing that?
Why?
And I was like, oh mygosh, lemme defend myself.

undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Some people (34:21):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: have better (34:22):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: boundaries. (34:22):
undefined
Yes.
Well, what are some other things?
So I will say, you know, we've reallytalked about like mostly, you know, going
to work on a day that maybe you don'twant to, but what are some other things?
'cause I have other things thatI do that are very much like not
great boundaries or like what Ilike to say blurring the lines.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: I mean, I will blur the lines (34:39):
undefined
on can you help me with this?
And it's not really organizing related.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Me too. (34:45):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: And again, when you were saying like, (34:46):
undefined
there's not a five point checklist,but one of the checklists is, do I
really enjoy working with this client?
And that is always the case.
If I'm helping someone.
With laundry, if I'm helping someonewith their taxes, with paying their
bills, with looking up their charitablegenerations with calling their accountant

(35:07):
for them, or, you know, doing allthese extra organizing adjacent tasks.
It is for the best people, you know,that are just like, I, you know,
the phone is a hangup for them.
They're like I can't make thesecalls and I need to make these calls.
And I was like I'll sit on hold for, youknow, however long we need to, and you,

(35:28):
and I'll chat while we're doing it orwe'll work on something else, you know?
And then that bleeds into, canyou pick up my dry cleaning?
Yeah.
And can you, I've done that before.
All these returns to Temu and canyou drop off this package and Yeah.
And the, so the list goes on.

Yeah.
I definitely, that's anotherplace I for sure blur the
lines on things that I'll do.
I would add to that.
Multiple donation drops.
Like I have some paint and I havesome electronics and I have this glass
straw that needs to go to this specificplace and I've got like this and that.
You know, you can really end upgoing oh I know a place that can
go versus the one drop off that Isay that you get with my service.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yes. (36:11):
undefined
A thousand percent.
Yes.
Because I will make whatever they need tohave have happen, we can make it happen.
So you want all of this to go away.
We'll find the appropriateplaces to get them.
Yes.
Yeah.

I do.
This is kind of, a little bit off topic,but I also, I'll do those multiple
donation drops, especially with peoplethat I say, I know this is never gonna
happen if they try to do it themselves.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yeah, absolutely. (36:34):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: It will not occur. (36:36):
undefined
I want them to really get thefull benefit of that experience.
Yeah.
And I want them to get thesethings out of their house.
So I am okay with, if I've got aweird thing in the back of my car
that I have to drive by Dakota County

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Drop off, (36:56):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: you know, (36:56):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: and literally have medications in (36:57):
undefined
the front seat of the passenger.
Yeah.
Seat of my car right now because ifthey're there, I'll remember to take them.
Yes.

Yeah.
So are there some thingsthat you have learned?
Like I, the way that I have hadto learn how to set some better
boundaries is because I recognizein myself that oh, I'm really mad.
Like not, it went, it started toget beyond resentful of I'm mad now
that I said yes to X, Y, and Z. Isthere something that you did that

(37:30):
was perhaps more healthy on learninghow to set some good boundaries?

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Part of it was me just realizing I (37:35):
undefined
didn't have energy for things that Iactually wanted to have energy for.
Whether it's spending time withfamily or friends or both, or yeah,
there are just some life thingsthat I was like, I'm too tired for.
And then I was like, okay, I'm Iset my own schedule here, so that
means I need to dial back someof the things that I'm doing.

(37:57):
One of the things that I took on thisyear was taking on a course that is
new and intense and a lot of workand good but it takes a lot of time.
Yeah.
And so right now I'm on abreak, which is why when Melissa
was like, how about today?
Because she's I know you gotall these things going on.
I was like, I'm on aschool break, you know?
Noticing how much I can do whiledoing that too is different.

(38:21):
And then since I know you've talked aboutthis before on the podcast, sorry to our
two male listeners, but I also went andgot my hormone levels checked just to
be like, is that doing anything to theenergy level here and can that help too?
'Cause I think there was a multitudeof factors happening at once.

Yeah.
Also respectfully, I think we havefour male listeners, so thank you.
My mistake.
Probably it's probably none.
So I did the same thing.
So I started and we did a, I did a wholeperimenopause menopause episode with Kim
Snodgrass if you didn't listen to it.
But I also just got on somehormones and I have noticed.

(38:55):
Personally I have noticedsome positive changes.
I know it, you know,everyone's mileage may vary.
I have definitely started to feel better,but that is something that, I mean,
part of that is I find myself havinga little bit lower patience level.
And I'm hoping that will kind ofrectify with some of these new
things coursing through my veins.
And that has led to I think some of thesethings where I'm like, I'm mad at myself

(39:17):
that I said yes to X, Y, and Z. And it,my patience level with, which obviously
in the work we do has to be very high.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Right. (39:28):
undefined
I mean,

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: yesterday I was like about 800 (39:30):
undefined
times, you're never gonna use that.
You're never gonna use that.
You're never gonna use that.
I had to keep it all in my head.
Yeah.
And I used to haveinfinite patience for that.
And I find myself having a harder timelike with some of those things and.
Is

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: that a (39:46):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: tell for you? (39:46):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Like what does that, what happens when (39:47):
undefined
you notice that you're doing that?

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I notice that in myself. (39:53):
undefined
Yeah.
When, and I'm specificallytalking about organizing.
I have found some this is anotherword that's overused, but I'll just
use it here, triggers in myself.
Okay.
Where I say, if I start to get like lowpatience or and obviously I'm always
very patient with a client, but in myhead when I start going I cannot believe

(40:15):
she's keeping that, this is so dumb.
Guess what?
It's her.
How she gets to do whatever she wants,even if it, even if I think it's silly.
Right?
Also when I start to get judgmental about.
Why do you go to Costco 75 times a week?
You don't need to go to Costco.
Why do you need 17 of X, y, z thing?
When I get really judgmental in myhead, rather than taking that step back

(40:37):
and going there are a million reasonsthat the client's in this situation.
That's when I know it's probably timefor me to take a little bit of a break.
Yeah.
And I'm proud of myself that Irecognize it because again, what
I would never want is for thatto manifest in front of a client.

undefined
Yeah.
Right.
And I have

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: a really good filter and (40:54):
undefined
a really good poker face.

undefined

But when, you know, at some point when you
have to stuff everything and keep it inyour head, it's gotta let out somewhere.

undefined
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I hear you.
I think there were a multitude ofthings happening for me this week.
If I can share, but please.
Yeah.
It was the anniversary of my brother'sdeath and 10 years ago that he died.
And so there was this added layerof grief on top of everything
else that was going on.
And I think every year there'sbeen like some feelings and stuff,

(41:28):
but somehow 10 was deeply moresignificant than I think I realized.
Sure.
Until I was crabby forthree days straight.
And you know, me that's a long stretch for

me.
And it's so not you.
I mean, it's so not your personality.
Yeah.
Like I can tend to be crabby.
You are not a crabby person.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Not generally. (41:46):
undefined
Yeah.
So I woke up today, one of thethings I told Melissa was like, oh
my gosh, I'm not crabby anymore.
And yeah.
So all of that to say that there can justbe a multitude of things happening that.
That it's good for us to take sometime like you're doing to reflect
and be like, oh, I think I might needto pause some things here coming up.

(42:06):
And like for me we actually, it's Friday.
We have a vacation on Monday and I'mlike, well that's fantastic timing
'cause I just was right on theedge here of really needing that.
And it's weird how like it leading rightup to it, you're, I think sometimes
that makes it worse 'cause you're like,I know I'm going outta town so I might
as well get all of these things done.

(42:27):
Right now, appointments I've beenputting off to make for myself for
months suddenly seem very important.
You know, the day thatyou're leaving on vacation.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Well, and like we talk about with clients, (42:35):
undefined
it's not, the stuff is a symptom, right?
Like the disorganization and theclutter and the stuff is a symptom
of something else underneath.
And that could be amillion different things.
Yeah.
Same thing with us.
And I just talked to my daughterwho's at college about this
two hours ago where she's had acouple things that have kind of.

(42:57):
Been upsetting to her this week.
And I'm like, boy, that's weird.
That shouldn't really bebugging her that much.
And she and I got in a little bit of, alittle bit of an argument earlier this
week and I was like, I finally said toher, I was like, I'm gonna say something
and I don't want you to get mad at me.
I go, I think you are so tired.
It's the end of the year.
She's an ra so she's had to stay two weekslonger than all of her friends are gone.

(43:19):
Yeah.
She's had to stay longer.
Her days are not very exciting.
She is ready to comehome for summer break.
And I was like, I think all of thesethings are just making you like a bunch
more tense and that's causing you to kindof flip on a couple of these things that
normally wouldn't bother you that much.
And she's yeah, I know you're right.
And I'm like, of course I'm right.

(43:40):
I know I'm right.
I made you I know you.
Yeah.
But that's how it is with me too, islike the stuff under the stuff is,
you know, you had grief and a verysignificant anniversary and all of those
things which are hard in any given day.
I got a kid graduating, leaving the house.
I have a lot of stress in my work life.

(44:02):
I have you know, I have a lotof things going on right now.
Right.
And all of that, you know, compounds.
Yeah.
And that, just recognizing that Ithink and just being, because I'm a
person who also can tend to be like,I'm gonna incriminate, like I'm gonna
be a self recriminating about why Ishouldn't be like this and I shouldn't
be cranking, I shouldn't be this.
And I'm like, we just are what we areand we have to recognize like the why.

(44:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a great point.
And some things you can changeand some things you can't.

undefined
So what have you found helpful for youwhen you've gotten to a point of either
razor thin burnout or full on burnout?
What have you done to get yourself back?

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Sometimes I have to, and I'm in the (44:41):
undefined
process of figuring out how I can do this,but one of the things that I have to do
is legitimately take a step fully back.
Like I have to say.
I need a week off of clientsno matter what's going on.
Yeah.
Not everyone's schedule works that way.

(45:02):
I get it.
I tend to be a little bit moreflexible with my schedule.
I understand there are lots ofpeople, especially if you have a team.
I don't have a team.
And so I, other peopleare not depending on me.
My clients are depending on me, but Idon't have other people depending on me.
And I can sometimes justhave to say, I need.
A few days.
Yeah.
To not have to do it.

(45:22):
To not have to do all of the things thatis incredibly hard as a business owner.
Yeah.
'cause you always have this compulsion,I think of the wheels are gonna fall
off the bus if I'm gone for four days.
Right.
That is not the case.
It's just period.
The end, not, I don't care ifyou have a team of 55 people.

undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: It's just they know what to (45:41):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: do. (45:42):
undefined
Yeah.

Yes.
If you're by yourself.
So sometimes I have to make a very,I'm kind of the switches on or
the switches off kind of a person.
But sometimes it's as simple asallowing myself the permission to
take a nap in the middle of the day.
And that sounds so silly, but it's true.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: No, I was literally thinking (45:58):
undefined
that exact same thing.
I'm like, how would I answerthis if Melissa asked me?
And I'm like, I would talk about napping.

Yeah.
You and I are deeply committed to naps.
It's, I think, again, anotherthing that we align on and another
thing that I will die on the hill.
Sometimes you just need a nap.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Truly and some food likeable. (46:13):
undefined
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And then a nap.
And then you're a new person.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: A hundred percent. (46:18):
undefined
And my younger daughter is aboutto go off to college, but she still
has, we always talk about her.
I hope my kids neverlisten to this podcast.
They're gonna be really mad at me.
But sometimes we say she still like a verylittle child inside because when she is
stressed out, it will start to manifestas like when she was a teeny, tiny kid.
And we'd be like, babe, it's time for bed.

(46:38):
And so I'll still do that to18-year-old, taller than me ready
to go out in the world, kid.
I'll be like, babe, I reallythink it's time for bed.
I think it's time for you tojust go night night, like go
down the hall and go to sleep.
And so that's what, at least for me,sometimes if I just take a stupid hour nap
I wake up and the world is just different.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yeah, no, I completely agree. (46:58):
undefined
And sometimes if you get a really goodnap, it feels like a completely different
day and you get like bonus work done.
Absolutely.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: And so I just think there (47:07):
undefined
are some of those things.
I'll tell you, I also will sometimesif I'm feeling super stressed in
the middle of the day or like reallyyou know, really having a day, I
will just do a meditation session.
I love the calm app.
I will do, they have somethingliterally called emergency calms.
And so you can do like a 10minute session of okay, you're
feeling like highly anxious, let'sbreathe through that, or whatever.

(47:27):
That I have found that I really enjoy aswell, if you don't have time for a nap.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Oh yeah. (47:31):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: But sometimes it's a bigger, more (47:33):
undefined
holistic, like I have to figure somethings out and when, if I'm really
feeling burned out, I really have toget down to okay, what is actually
bothering me and how do I fix that?
So it's like some inner work of,let me be honest with myself, which
is never my favorite thing to be.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: I like to also just find out like what is (47:54):
undefined
the bare minimum that needs to take place?
Yes.
If I'm really running outta steam, it'swhich, which emails can wait till tomorrow
or the next day, and which one do Ireally just need to get that out today?
You know,

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: a hundred percent. (48:09):
undefined
This has come up in the IO groupa few times recently, but people
have said, I have to give myclient a comprehensive proposal.
What do you think about X, Y, and Z?
And my first response is usually, why doyou have to give a comprehensive proposal?
What does that mean to you?
Because I think that there are a lotof things that we do in our business
that we think they're required andthe client doesn't need it or want it.

(48:34):
So I would urge people to think aboutsome of those things in their business.
Like I have a friend who is alsoa podcaster for the business that
she has, and she's like, I haveto get a podcast out this week.
And I'm like, why do you have to.
I mean, I'm sure that there arepeople who would love for me to put
out five podcast episodes a week.
I don't have that abilityor that energy or that time.

(48:56):
So sometimes it'll be amonth in between podcasts.
Is that ideal for my business?
Probably not, but sometimesthat's what has to happen.

undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: So MVP minimum viable product is (49:04):
undefined
what I would urge people to think.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yeah, absolutely. (49:09):
undefined
Absolutely.
And you and I both did thatwith clients this week.
Okay we got some extra time.
What is the minimum thatneeds to take place for you?
Yeah.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: What can you live with? (49:19):
undefined
Right.
Ideal.
And then there's again, I think a lotof times we put pressure on ourselves
that a client is not expecting.
My client was thrilled today that Igot two of the things on her list done.
She was only expecting me to get one done.
Yeah.
I got the first one done andI'm like, I'm still trucking.
I'm already here.
Lemme just do it.

(49:39):
Yeah, I was done and I went downand she was in the living room and
I'm like, okay, you're all set.
And she's oh, okay, so next timeyou can do the girls' bathroom.
I'm like, Nope.
Already done.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Yeah, (49:49):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: she was thrilled. (49:50):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Right, right. (49:51):
undefined
And you set that expectation early,that's what you did really well, was
communicating clearly of, Hey, I onlyhave time for one of these things today.
Yep.
Yeah.
And then you under promised andoverdelivered, which is always
the key to surprise and delight.

I learned under promise and overdeliver
as a phrase, early in my, so I was nota business major I was a psychology
major, and so I didn't have any businessknowledge when I got a big girl business
job when I graduated from college.
And so there were all these thingsthat I'm sure everybody learned
in college that I never learned.
But under promise and overdeliverwas something that I was like,
oh my gosh, that's a fun phrase.

(50:29):
But I, it's, I have used it since thenbecause the alternative is not great and
no one likes it over promising no onelike that you're delivering is terrible.
Yeah.
So I would rather go, it'ssurprise and delight, right?
Yeah.
My client was delightedthat I got two things done.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Absolutely. (50:44):
undefined
We did the same thing yesterday.
We were like, okay, bottom line, we'llget all the remaining furniture built.
Did we also do two closetsand a space in the basement?
Yes, we did.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Amazing. (50:56):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: But there were multiples of us (50:56):
undefined
so we could divide and conquer.

Yeah.
Let's just talk for a hot second aboutyou had six people on your team all do.
How many times have you ever hadsix people on one project in a day?

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: I mean less than 10, but (51:08):
undefined
probably more than five.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, because that was one of thethings this client was nervous about.
She's have you done this before?
I was like, yes.
This is not our first rodeo.
You are not my Guinea pig.
And she's oh, okay.
But the Guinea pig didn't knowthey were the Guinea pig either.
I was just

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: about to say, by the way, this is (51:27):
undefined
another thing that we've talked aboutbefore at some juncture, lie to people.
I mean, even just don't lie.
Don't necessarily be, not lie.
I just didn't say, by the way, thisis the first time we've ever done

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: six. (51:37):
undefined
Let's see how it goes.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Right? (51:38):
undefined
That's what I mean is I don't meanlie, I just mean you also don't
need to volunteer extra informationthat no one has asked for.
So the first person that ever gotsix people, you didn't say, I'm
just letting you know this is thefirst time we've ever done this.
Don't do that.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: No. (51:50):
undefined
No one's asking for that information.
Don't do that.
What we were asking for is, here'sthe scope of work we want done
and we want it done in one day.
And I looked at the scope of work andI said, I think that's gonna take six.
And she goes, okay.
And so we did, and it wasgreat, and the team loved it.
They

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: loved the six people day (52:05):
undefined
because everybody got together.
You all got to worktogether and that's fun.
Yeah.
So I would say,

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: yeah, we've done, we do (52:13):
undefined
four all of the time.
Okay.
And five and six is a little bit morerare, but when we get to those numbers,
the team, the energy just comes in.
Even on that sweet client, the first daywe arrived, as, you know, each person's
coming in, we're introducing ourselves.
She goes, oh, I justlove the energy already.
You know, and that's fun.
It just sets you off on the right footto be like, we're here, we're ready to

(52:35):
work, we're ready to help let's dive in.
And we've already talked aboutthe plan enough that everybody
knows what we're doing.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I love (52:41):
undefined

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: it. (52:41):
undefined

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Thanks. (52:42):
undefined
So what would you say to someonewho maybe like you, I. Or myself are
struggling a little bit with these things.
What would you recommend maybe evento yourself or to me, your friend?

undefined
This, I feel like this is gonna sounda little bit cliche, but hopefully not.
I feel like there's a lot of I'mtrying to think of another word and I
can't, so I'm just gonna say it twice.
I feel like there's a lot of valuebenefit to identifying our values and
figuring out what really is importantto us, and making sure that the choices

(53:19):
that we're making are aligning with that.
Because when that's outta whack, thenI think that's when we get really
we get crabby, we get short withpeople that we love and care about.
We start saying no to things thatwe typically would go to and enjoy
and be refreshed and refueled by.
And it, and then that justleads to more and more maybe.

(53:41):
Unaligned decision making, andthen we wrap ourselves into a
tizzy and then we're like, oh mygosh, I'm on the edge of burnout.
I wonder why.
Yeah.
Just speaking about myself here.
Yeah.
But I think the more that we can say,okay, you know what, spending time
with friends and family is importantto me, so let's make sure that there
is time carved out for that each week.
What does that look like?

(54:01):
Do I actually need toput it on the calendar?
Like I, I do because left uninterrupted,I do not have it in the house.
I will just keep working and keep working.
'cause there's always more to do.
So there are some intentional eveningsand days of the month that are scheduled
out to be like, Nope, we gotta stop there.
You know?

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: I think being self-aware (54:22):
undefined
also is super important.
Yeah.
Like recognizing before someoneoutside of you has to say.
Boy, you've really been something latelyor before you really, you know, upset.
I mean, and I think in a lot ofcases we certainly don't show

(54:43):
these things to our clients.
We show them to thepeople that we go home to.

undefined
Yeah.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: And to our friends and to other things. (54:49):
undefined
And you know, I found myself, I hada dinner this week with friends,
you know, kind of a standingmonthly dinner, and I was like, I'm
so tired, I just don't wanna go.
And then I'm like, no,you made a commitment.
And then I was oh, but I makea commit to so many things.
And I just, and I'm like, no, just go.

(55:10):
Because I was like, myfriends are important.
Yeah.
And my friends show up for me.
When I need them to.
And so I need to show up even if,and so if I am too tired, too cranky,
and to all the things, then I need toexamine some of these other things.
Yeah.
And so recognizing I love what you saidabout what are your values and what
are the things that are truly importantto you because I definitely am someone

(55:32):
that can put work above everything else.
And so then I say yes to all thework things and start saying no
to the other things that mightactually be more important.

undefined
Yeah.
I I said yes to all the fun things lastweekend and usually I do have to sneak
some work in because I don't, yeah.
It just needs to happento keep things running.
And I filled the weekendwith all non-work things.
So this was Monday and Tuesdayyou were, we're crammed with a
little bit of work and this ishow it got to the end of the week.

(56:02):
And I was just like, ah.
Yeah.
The fun things were so fun, like gettingtogether with an old friend that I
hadn't seen in a really long time andcelebrating something significant in
their life, and then seeing anotherfriend perform live music like soul
filling things that I, you know, thatgassed me up for the whole week or, well,
until I tanked on, understandably, yes.

(56:25):
Yeah.
But still it's good to actually, likeyou were saying you went and did the
thing with your friends to remindyourself that, oh yeah, I do doing this.
'cause it's really easy for meto get in my head and be like, I
know I like doing that, but thosethings are gonna be there later.
And then that is, to your point, puttingwork above everything else, which is not
the way that my values actually align.

(56:48):
Yeah.
Sometimes it's what my life lookslike, but if it's not matching, that
disconnect is gonna show up somewhere.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Well, and I will say when I see, sometimes (56:54):
undefined
when I see other people who have thosereally clear boundaries, especially
on like family versus work stuff, youknow, just home life versus work life.
Yeah.
There was someone that I saw the other daywas like, I'm totally booked up for two
months and whatever, and blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, well, the answer to meis open up more times on your calendar.
And I'm like, well, that'snot the answer for her.

(57:17):
She doesn't want to have moretime on her calendar, open up.
She wants to have that balance.
And this is somethingthat I struggle with.
So of course, my first answerwas probably toxic, right?
I didn't actually say that to her bythe way, but I, my first thought was
just put more time on your calendar.
Like maybe just do aSaturday, I don't know.
And then I'm like,well, that's ridiculous.
So it's, I just wanna be, I'm very,being very transparent here that

(57:40):
I have some problematic thinkingthat I'm trying to work on.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: And that's hard. (57:42):
undefined
Yeah, it is hard work.
So darn neural pathways, they're justso downtrodden in the They're there.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Yeah, they're there. (57:50):
undefined
Well, I, but just in general, we'reall such a freaking work in progress.
It doesn't matter if you are 20 yearsold or 30 years old, or 50 or 60.
Like we all have things that are goodand things that we maybe need to work on.
And this is something that youand I are just trying to work on.
Yeah, absolutely.

(58:10):
Thank you for being here.
As usual, you have beena very frequent guest.
On this program.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Thank you for having me back. (58:16):
undefined
It is a pleasure to just chatwith you in general Anytime.
But here in a way that hopefullythere's some takeaways for other
organizers to just, you know,don't do all the things we do.
Yeah.

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: We just want to tell everyone, (58:30):
undefined
it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
And by the way, if you think I haveall my act together because I, you
know, help people out, I don't, I, weare all working through it together
and we all doing the best with things.
Yeah.
And I think, again, I've said this amillion times, but social media gives
us I this idea that like everybodyhas it together except for me.
And that is just, it's so not true.

(58:52):
Yeah.

Missi McKown | Clear Spaces Organizing: Doing the best we can with what we have. (58:53):
undefined
Right?

Melissa Klug | Pro Organizer Studio: Absolutely correct. (58:55):
undefined
Well, thank you for being here.

undefined
Thanks for having me.

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223 | "Don't Be Like Us!"

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