August 22, 2023 • 33 mins
Ever wonder what it takes to leave a demanding career after 21 years of service? Join me as I converse with BC Sanders, a seasoned law enforcement officer, and share his compelling journey from the front lines to the quieter path of writing and podcasting. We traverse the intimate aspects of his career, from working on organized crime to the emotional burden of the homicide unit, and the sacrifices he had to make during this considerable transition.
BC opens up about the significant role mental health plays in law enforcement. We delve into the stigma around therapy within the force and highlight how crucial it is for officers to utilize the resources available to them.
As we shift focus to BC's life post-retirement, we discuss his current role in consulting and training, and his co-hosting gig. The importance of finding outlets beyond one's career and the value of scenario-driven training are key topics in our conversation. BC offers invaluable insights into leadership, the importance of positioning officers where their expertise can be best utilized, and shares advice to those aspiring to be in a leadership role. Don't miss our engaging dialogue on the human aspect behind the badge.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey, welcome to the Protectors.
This is the big reveal.
We are here talking to BCSanders.
Now, we talked about a littlebit.
What we're going to revealtonight is something, but it's
not everything, because you gotto keep a little mystery.
You know what I mean there, bc.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, yeah, just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how many times we've
been on a show together.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
A few, a few, yeah, I would say four, fiveish maybe.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Or five, some of the live stuff all over the place.
But we talk all the time, wetext all the time and you know,
bc, you're going throughsomething that I just went
through in March.
It's 20-something years in lawenforcement and then you're
pulling a plug, man, and I hatethat word, I hate that word.
That sounds terrible.
You're trying, you know, let'ssay you're going to pivot my
(01:05):
favorite word, pivot into a newphase of your life or a new
chapter of your life.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You know what I'm doing.
I'm giving up a seat forsomebody else to take my spot
and have as much fun as I had.
That's the way I look at it.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
You know, that's a damn good way to look at it.
I don't know if anybody's goingto.
You know, with my seat it waskind of like you know, yeah, you
don't want that seat, man, butanyway for BC man, like when you
first decided to take that stepand to leave law enforcement
after how many years now, like20 plus right.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, this will basically be a 21 year, so I'm
doing just an early retirement21 years when you first decided
to take it.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
you must have had like a hell of a lot of it.
Like you know, you still havebills to pay.
You still have a lot of lifeleft, oh yeah.
But, yeah, what was thatfeeling?
Like man Tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Uh, it was like a gradual progression.
The more I was writing and themore that was kind of taken off
and avenues were opening up forme, the more I started seeing
okay, at some point I'm going to, I'm going to have to either
decide to go full bore and keepwriting and push what I want to
do next or keep doing what I'mdoing in the police world.
(02:17):
But you know here, uh, we do 30year retirements or 25 year
retirements, or you can buy backsome military time and and get
time.
You know credit for that, uh.
So I just weighed out myoptions.
But the more I was writing andthe more I wanted to get into
that, the more I wanted to workon podcasting, merchandise,
(02:39):
doing some events.
Uh, I just thought now's thetime where I can retire and
actually get involved in doingwhat I want to do.
So it's not like I, it's notlike I hated law enforcement.
I'm not, um, frustrated with mydepartment, especially not like
my chief.
I'm kind of sad in that factthat I'm retiring when we have a
chief that is the old schoolcrime fighter, um, but also
(03:04):
forward thinking.
So I am going to miss that I,they're, they're getting ready
to take off and in my departmentand get back to the way it was
several years ago when we had alot of really good units doing a
lot of really good work.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, you were in a leadership position too, which
is it's a lot different now.
You know, may I miss the field?
I miss, I miss the old old days.
For me, like the end of mycareer, just yeah, it wasn't
that fun.
But knowing that you're goingto turn to badge and gun it, I'm
going to, I'm going to.
Well, the first thing is I'mgoing to try to make you cry
during this interview.
Now, oh, that's, that's easy.
(03:41):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
What you gotta do is mention, like the movie Simon
Birch, or you know the uh, uh.
Stand by me when when uh and uh, what's his name?
Or sitting there on the road,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah I moi되uis ça.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, so I was.
But do you have that kind oflike am I doing the right thing?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, the idea, uh, and wealways say that like once you
realize kind of you're done, youknow, like your heart's not in
it.
It's not because it's kind ofcliche, but cop work is
different than just a regularjob.
I mean, it's something that youkind of have to sacrifice.
(04:56):
Going through that Academy, uh,you know, focusing on what you
want to do and what, whatassignments you want to take and
what you're willing tosacrifice.
You know some assignments arevery cushy and you can sit at a
desk and not do anything, oryou're out there like you were
on the border doing things onyour own, you know, solo out in
the desert or whatever.
(05:16):
Or as a patrol officer, you'rein a patrol car, you're
responding to chaos, and for meand for a lot of other people
that's what we wanted to do, nomatter what.
I mean I sacrificed a lot to dowhat I wanted to do and I was
very fortunate that a lot ofassignments were open for me,
(05:37):
because I kind of built abackground early on in patrol
with gangs and trying to be likean expert in just criminal
culture, and some of that I knewbefore I joined the police
department, just kind of growingup in the punk rock scene and
stuff.
But once I got on I just keptlearning and wanted to really
just focus on any kind oforganized crime or organized
(05:59):
threat, and so that if yourheart's not in it and then, like
you were saying, you go and youapply or you look at it and go,
ah, you know, I still got itPhysically, you got it Mentally.
You would smoke everybody inthe academy.
But if your heart's not thereafter a while you just kind of
lose interest.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
You know what I mean, yeah, it's like going back to
be that young guy again, a50-years-old, to be the new guy.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
If you can give me a.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
if I could find a reserve slot somewhere that was,
like you know, a fully sworntype reserve gig where I could
actually do like investigationsor do something.
I'm like I jump on a heartbeatI'd give my time for free.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Now some departments are going to like a like you
retire and then they'll hireretirees back If they've got
certain backgrounds or they'rewilling to do certain jobs, and
I think it's like 20 hours aweek.
But some departments look atlike a cold case investigators
so they may bring somebody backwith a homicide background and
(06:57):
they wouldn't go out and doactual interviews and work crime
scenes, but they would gothrough cold cases, assess them
and then basically make a to-dolist.
And so there have been someagencies that I've met with and
they've talked about that, notfor me, but I mean like for me
when I retire I'm not doing thatbut for their units, and I
thought that was pretty coolthat someone could retire and
(07:17):
still use that expertise and nottie up.
You know a full-timeinvestigator.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
But now you have a lot of creative outlet available
.
You know you started thepodcast a while ago.
You've been interviewed amillion times, you've been
speaking out about yourknowledge, your expertise and
everything, and now you'regetting into writing.
You've been into writing soyou've been building up these
outlets.
And that's one thing I tellpeople, mike, when you're
(07:44):
thinking about changing careerpaths even if, let's say, you've
only been on job five years butyou just know it's not right
for you, or you know you didyour time and you want to move
on to something else You'rebuilding these creative outlets
while you're still in the job.
You're not just stayingstagnant.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, I think it's like anything just having an
exit strategy Whether it'sgetting a gang member out of a
gang or a partner out of anabusive relationship.
You know there are just certainthings you got to do to plan
for that transition, because ifyou don't, then you're kind of
sitting there one day, eitherretired or resigned and you
(08:22):
don't have anything lined up.
And there are guys out there Isay guys, there are people out
there who will wait and thenthey'll retire and they have no
plan and they're scramblingaround at the last minute, you
know, trying to get a gig orwhatever.
If for some departments you canretire at 100%, so your salary
is your salary for the rest ofyour life.
(08:44):
So it always kind of amazes meSome people will retire and they
get very frustrated becausethey don't have anything lined
up.
And I kind of look at it and gowell, 25 or 30 years, you know
to line stuff up and maybe notbeat yourself up about it,
retire and work in the ease intosomething.
But like you've had stuffyou've been working on, you've
(09:05):
had, you know, outlets that arepositive and that are rewarding
for you and your personality.
I look at the same way withnewer officers and tell them all
the time, like, find a, find ahobby, find something to get
involved in outside of thiswhole police sphere, you know.
So if, whether it's, you know,reading, for me it was reading
(09:26):
and writing and and doinggraphic designs or having ideas
for certain merchandise andstuff like that, or pitching
ideas to to bands and um, youknow, uh, sharing artwork and
stuff.
You got to have something likethat.
But to transition out afterfive years or seven years, uh,
in police work you have amazingskills that you can capitalize
(09:49):
on.
But what do we do in our culture?
We don't like to see peopleresign early or leave.
It's sad.
It's almost like, um, peoplemake fun of officers sometimes
when they do resign, but thenyou see that officer a year
later and they have a great joband they're happy and and it's
like it's, you know, like, likesometimes just got to support
(10:10):
people and go look if you wantto resign and go do something
else.
Like for me, like you got myblessing, like I keep in touch
with me.
I don't, I don't want you to goout there and be frustrated or
mad.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I look at it.
I look at police work andemergency responders, first
responders and stuff.
It's kind of like a uh, it'salmost like a military tour, you
know.
It's almost like an enlistmentYou're serving you may not be
serving foreign um, and we bothknow, like a lot of people that
go to war don't really do a tonand but there's a lot of cops
(10:41):
that have seen some stuff.
Man, you know, four or five,two years, one year on a job,
six months on a job, you know,give them the same credibility
and give them the same kudos islike hey, you know what you did
four or five years.
Go and do something that youwant to do.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe like you've got to stay in
this job 20 years or we're goingto hate you.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
That's, but that is the culture Sometimes.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I know man it is.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I had a rookie uh, I used to be a training officer,
um on patrol for a couple ofyears and I had a rookie that
was in the Marine Corps, servedoverseas, and when he came to
our district, our district waswas wide open.
At that time we had, uh, one ofthe highest homicide rates in
our city's history and probablyabout 90% of those homicides
(11:27):
were occurring right there inour area or our location.
So he and I were going to a lotof murders and and shootings.
And he was only with me fornine weeks I think it was eight
weeks or something and towardsthe end he said I've seen more
dead bodies here than I saw overin Iraq or Afghanistan I forget
which one he was in, but but Iwas like okay, and and a little
(11:50):
you know, psychologist in me waslike, are you good with that?
Like like, talk to me, you knowwhat's, how's it making you
feel?
For him it was a lot of it was,I say, depressive, obviously,
but I don't think he was readyfor that.
I think that he thought becauseof the news and the city that
we were in it's a big city butit's not, you know, new York,
(12:12):
chicago or LA and it took him alittle bit to adapt to it.
You know, and also, aside fromthe murders, you're also going
to suicides, overdoses, uh,deaths, you know such child
deaths, elderly people passingaway, people passing away and
looking like you know they'rediscarded trash because they,
(12:34):
you know, they're sleeping in acup between some houses or
something.
So it was kind of an opener forhim and I always tried to
remember that too with you know,newer officers to be very
understanding that they're goingto see stuff that you know TV
and television kind ofsensationalizes it, um, but at
some point your brain has toprocess it and it may not be
(12:56):
that year, it may be five yearsdown the road.
For me it started about 15 yearsago because I've worked on a
homicide unit, uh, as adetective, a sergeant and as a
lieutenant and it it started onlike I said.
It just started kind of settingin and I and I started trying
to limit what I was beingexposed to If I was not directly
(13:17):
involved in something.
I didn't want to see the crimescene photos.
I had learned enough at thattime, I didn't need to keep
seeing it, um, and I didn't wantto keep taking on the um, I
guess the sorrow or the the sadfeelings coming from the
families and that sort of thing.
So I'll say this there if youknow people are listening,
they're in that field.
(13:37):
If it's homicide, you know,aggravated assault, sexual
assaults, like at some point youhave to switch it up and try to
do something different.
Um, if that begins to affectyou now, if it doesn't affect
you, then that's cool, drive on.
And if your department has apsychologist which I hope a lot
of departments do, or at leastwill pay for officers or agents
(13:59):
to go see a psychologist you goin there, you talk it out and
it's not like sitting on a couch, you take a walk around the
block or a building or something.
You can meet, like ourpsychologist department.
You meet anywhere.
I can call this person up, textthis person or just get on the
phone and say, hey, we got 10minutes, I just want to talk
about what I just saw and get itout and um, it's amazing to be
(14:21):
able to do that.
So some departments are alittle more progressive than
others and they are switching itup.
So I'm excited to at least seethat and exercise and yoga and
clean eating and tellingofficers you know it's okay if
you don't drink, and if youdrink now you can cut back some.
You know you don't get.
Getting drunk every night isprobably not going to help with
(14:42):
what you're seeing.
You know it's going to makethings worse.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know, unfortunately your department is
an exception to the norm andthat's a lot of.
That's a big discussion we needto start having everywhere and
everyone.
You know the military isfinally embracing it Now.
You're finally seeing people atgeneral level saying, hey, you
know what?
I have a problem, I have issues.
I want to get help.
But the way what you justdescribed is something I think
would be perfect.
Like you said, you can reachout to your texts, you can take
(15:07):
walks, you can do other things.
It shouldn't just be like ohman, come on, bro, we all see
that.
You know, come on.
You know the gallows humor andthen deflect and then,
especially if you're in amanagement position, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, it's it's.
It's weird because when I goton the department the older
officers or the seasonedofficers we had a different
psychologist, but we still had adepartment psychologist, but
they just didn't seem to embraceit, you know, and it could have
been the person I don't know.
I never went to that person atthe time.
So we had a differentpsychologist come on board and
(15:44):
that person was like top notch.
So probably within the last 10years, those of us that have
kind of come up through theranks and work different
assignments we try to influencethe others.
Make sure you're utilizing thedepartment psychologist and
should get over that stigma thatjust because you go talk to a
therapist doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with you.
(16:06):
As a matter of fact, it's kindof filled.
You know 10 times better.
The same way a coach can showyou how to how to dunk or shoot
a layup or something you knowwhat I mean or throw a football.
It's like you're kind ofdealing with the same thing.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And you're not broken man.
You're not.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
You know this, this idea also that everyone has to
talk about their feelings orwhat they're going through.
Not everybody has to.
You know, different people arewired different and I know I'm
taking this off on a tangent,but I don't necessarily have to
talk about everything I see orwhat I'm processing.
I can sometimes just process itmentally and move on.
(16:46):
If I want to talk about it, Ican talk about it.
But I also know there arepeople that are hardwired a
little bit differently and theydon't necessarily want to talk
about it, and and that's cooltoo.
I mean, my main thing is justso that people have some kind of
outlet and that officers andagents and deputies just support
one another and realize, likesome days are just not going to
(17:07):
be as as great as the other days, and psychologically some
people can't take that.
The same way they can't take aperson jumping out of a car
during a traffic stop andthreatening to kill them.
You know, for some people theymay go into vapor lock or that,
or they may just like freeze upor do whatever.
(17:28):
Most of the training nowadays is, you know, simulation driven,
scenario driven.
You kind of find out early onin an academy.
Okay, at least on a scenarioyou can function.
You know, in real life maybe.
But the more you do thescenarios, maybe we can
condition you to react a littlemore.
You know reliable sense and notnot spazzing out the way we've
(17:50):
seen some people do and they andthey resign and that's okay.
You know they maybe, maybe theyjust that's not their thing.
They don't want to put theirlife on the line.
I fully understand that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, when you bring up the outlets too.
It was like you and I bothstarted having an out little
while ago with the podcastingand everything.
Now, not everybody has to getpodcasting or writing or
whatever, but find somethingoutside of the job Because
that's going to help you buildto leave.
You're going to leaveeventually, you're not going to
stay on a job eventually andyou're going to want to have
something to back up.
(18:20):
Let's take away all themonetary stuff.
You still need to have somesort of outlet, some sort of
mission.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And that's um.
I think that more that's kindof more or more accepted now
with newer officers coming inbecause they're starting to hear
that a lot more.
Uh, but like when I first goton it, it doesn't seem like it
was really that long ago until Istopped and think about it and
I'm like man, that's like theequivalent of me in high school
and like whatever, like like1960, something you know, and
(18:52):
then I stopped and go.
Oh, a lot of time differencebetween you know, mid sixties to
the nineties or whatever Likeit's and maybe let's not talk
about time.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I am, you know, I still think 20 years ago.
Every time I see that meme, Istill think it's true.
I still think 20 years ago islike net eighties.
Yeah, oh, I do.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I do it all the time like that I completely forget
about, like the 2000s and in2010s and stuff.
I'm just I don't know mybrain's like stopped in the
nineties until you know, maybethe last five years.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I know it was like you know.
I turn on the the cameratonight I'm like holy crap,
that's a lot of gray hair.
Oh, you're good though man,yeah, we're going.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, I think that's the thing now, right, it's gray
hair Like uh, sure man, I'll gowith it.
People like gray.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So you, uh, you're excited about this next chapter,
which is good, and I'm gladyou're coming out to talk about
it.
Now you're, what do you thinkabout?
Like you know, you and I weretalking about, like you know,
let's not just do the writingand podcast and stuff like that.
Let's get together with peopleand just start building
community.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, I mean the, the writing thing is great.
Uh, consulting work so startingto get into some consulting
stuff.
So my co-host on the podcast ofdisruptors is is ski, and he
and I've worked some assignmentstogether FBI task force, gang
stuff.
We've taught, you know, we havetaught classes together.
(20:16):
We're moving into a differentphase where we're going to
collaborate and do some moretraining here in the future.
Um, but doing consulting worklike that, which actually kind
of came out of left field for us.
We went on um field craftsurvival their podcast with
Kevin Estella and had a greattime and and a listener reached
out to us and said hey, I, Ilike what you're talking about.
(20:38):
I'd love for you to talk to myfamily.
I've got some some um kids thatare going off to college in
different states.
Can we just have like a zoommeeting or something?
Uh, so we were able to do thatand and had a blast doing it.
I had a lot of really goodfeedback and we just do it more
like a discussion it's not likea straightforward PowerPoint and
(20:59):
you know, you're throwing aknife hand and telling people
how they got to do this and thatit's.
It's very laid back.
It's just an open end ofdiscussion and we covered
everything from basically kindof hardening your vehicle for
break ins and in apartmentcomplexes or college campuses to
um reading a little bit ofbehavioral um cues if someone's
(21:21):
a threat or even if someone istrying to kind of pull one over
on you or even just getinformation from you.
So it just it was a greatdiscussion.
So we do things like that andthen then we feel better because
we're sharing our informationin a similar fashion, the way we
would uh on the street or maybein a presentation to some
(21:41):
citizens or stuff.
So doing that and then tryingto work some of these events.
We've got some stuff coming upwith field craft in December, um
, so field craft has an officeuh in North Carolina, so they're
planning a Christmas party andstill kind of kind of in the, in
the weeds of how we're going todo it, but we're looking at um
(22:01):
maybe doing something like a diehard uh movie dress up kind of
thing.
Yeah, Just kind of theme it, butwant to bring people into their
facility and talk, shareinformation, just have a, have a
good time, Um, and eventually,you know, do some more events,
ski, and I'll probably startmaybe booking some bands and
(22:22):
trying to do some shows down theline, you know, a year or two
from now.
But I just I'm a social person,I love talking to people and I
think the more we can kind of dothat and kind of reconnect, uh
and and not live in our bubblethe way we kind of had to, you
know, for the last maybe year ortwo, um, with restrictions and
things like that, it's kind oflike we got to get back in
(22:44):
society to sitting on a tailgateand telling stories or
something you know the knowledgetransfer, man, the knowledge
transfer.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
That's.
That's one thing I liked abouttalking about Mike Lover too,
was he, you know, talking aboutthat community.
It's not always about preppingand this and that's just about
talking.
Yeah, just having conversations.
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
You had him on your show, uh, a couple of weeks ago,
maybe about a month back, ormaybe it's um, yeah, um, but,
but yeah, great episode.
Um, the information there.
I think people kind of getthings twisted and they just
start looking at it and if yousay anything about being
prepared or learning about youknow uh, environment that could
(23:28):
be either be hostile or criminalor whatever it like.
People sort of get the stigmathat you're now going to talk
down to them or you're you knowwhat I mean.
It gets a little weird.
So I always try to tell peopleI have a good time, I laugh and
joke, you know, and I can teachyou things that can save your
(23:49):
life, but we can still enjoythat there's a discussion and
not and not have a big ego oranything like yeah.
I like those guys because theydo that.
They share this information,and it could be everything from
natural disasters to Firearmstraining and stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
so not every day has to be like a doomsday.
You know it's like you can havefun and you know me, like the
shooting sports man, it just getpeople into learning something
new.
Yeah, and the field craft stuffis so awesome and you know,
both know like you know gettingout there in the woods and you
know I miss tracking, I missed,I missed cuz I grew up in Jersey
.
But the nice part, theappellation part.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
You know, for something.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Oh my gosh, not like the turnpike, the garden, garden
state parkway.
You know the garden stateparkway is good for some things,
man, but not, not, not like youknow it's, it's kind of a hole.
You know, you say we're fromNewark and all that, but I lived
up at a Delaware water gapwhere it was just a beautiful
man appellations Get up hiking,you get out there in the woods
(24:52):
and you just kind of learn moreabout yourself.
Like you know, I want morepeople to do that stuff, and
especially with their you knowtheir kids, man, get your kids
out there and take a walk withthem.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, they were just teaching a class last weekend on
land navigation and a lot ofpeople would be like, well, I
don't need to read a map.
Well, okay, maybe you don't,but people were having a good
time learning.
Hey, you do yeah and it's kindof like a feeling of
accomplishment, the same thatmaybe someone felt in school
(25:25):
getting an A or, you know,winning some event, and sports
are doing whatever it's like.
You know you could be, whateverage, take the course and learn a
really cool skill and then goout there and apply it and, just
like you said, like Nothingfeels better than than
traversing a land navigationcourse and you actually succeed.
Now what's worse is when youget lost, and I've been lost
(25:48):
before.
And the army, and it's a.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Hey, come on, I was a butter bar.
I was an infantry butter bar.
I believe me, I know what it'slike to get lost.
Yeah, but no, that's not thatsense of accomplishment.
When you get from point eight,when you get the point and then
you get the next point, you'relike I made it.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, this is real, you can really do this yeah, and
it's funny to the more weinteract our brains, like we're
really getting, like we'rechecking out from using our
brains for anything like I'mkind of silly, but really we
have these devices that the GPS,that maps everything, tells you
to turn left, turn right, likeyou don't even have to write
(26:25):
down the directions, like whenyou know.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
We were kids, we had to do the map quest or no.
Like back when I used to workdrugs, it was a Thomas guide man
.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, thomas guide, you be like there was a GPS you
know and you're yeah, yeah, Iwas a, I was a brand new officer
and I was taking the city orthe district map and I was
taking a piece of paper over andI was tracing the main avenues
of approach, like our main routeand where the hospital was.
And you know, because you gottaknow how to get the hospital,
and some of the other officerswe're like you know what are you
(26:57):
doing?
Rookie, you know, and I'm likeI'm learning this, this route,
you know, and they didn'tunderstand what I was doing.
But in my brain, yeah, I was arookie but I was drawing the map
because I had to picture to mybrain, I knew when I got in the
car, when the stress hits, Ihave to see that aerial view,
like reading a map and army.
I mean it worked a lot easier.
(27:19):
But yeah, I just tell peoplelike, get out and unplug, and
I've spent most of the summer atthe beach as much as I possibly
can, enjoying life.
You know, sitting with my lady.
Just, you know, sometimes we'resitting there listening to
music, sometimes we're justtalking.
We were out there the othernight until probably midnight
(27:41):
looking at the constellationsand it was a meteor shower.
I forget what it's called, butevery year in like mid August.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
There's a witness man .
It's called the UAP.
We had that shit.
Weren't, they wouldn't do thatshow together.
The UAP show.
I didn't remember, man, it waslike a live show, like that UAPs
oh, but legit.
We just, we saw like stars thatnot sure they were shooting was
open, man.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
The waves were rolling in the background, but
People got to do it, man.
They I mean get unplugged, getget focused.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Okay, what's okay?
We talked, we talked, we talked.
I saw offspring over theweekend excellent show.
What's your next show, man?
What's?
What's the next concert comingup?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Chrome eggs man.
Yeah, they are touring andthey're hitting some, some shows
in the south.
So yeah, I'm going to a chromeag show.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I might have to hit you up on that.
One man, we'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I might have to do that yeah, dri is coming through
as well.
I don't know if you rememberdirty rotten imbeciles, but they
were like Kind of punk and thenthey throw and they crossed
over like thrash.
But man, they're touring andeveryone is like these bands
still.
They still got it like theybring that kind of energy.
So those are the two showscoming up.
(29:04):
I missed gorilla biscuits andH2O.
They were touring together andI just there was no.
There were no shows in thesouth, and I even reached out to
the guitarist for H2O and he'slike, yeah, we just we don't
have anything on the books.
I think maybe they're gonna doa Florida festival, but yeah.
So I've missed a few shows,unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah yeah, I gotta get out there, man.
I you know I have cheap willtravel man.
I got my 2016 Jeep.
I'll drive all over the place,man that's how I have to do it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I can't, you know, most, most shows that are in the
south Are going to be like inone state maybe, and there's
like one venue that'll play someshows.
So you hit that one quite a bit.
But I call some sublime Acouple weeks, a couple weeks
back, man, that was anincredible show.
There were a couple other bandsthat played like slightly
(29:54):
stupid I think we're theheadliners, but I think a lot of
people were there to see someof them.
It was, it was a good show.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I've been trying to hit link up with John to go see
Motley crew and stuff and deathleopard.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Oh, you tell me, silver Spare.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
John, yeah, silver Spare.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
John.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
I gotta, I'd love to see those guys Awesome but I'm
like I missed him.
I'd have to travel to Japan tosee him.
Like I don't know if I'm up forlike a day, like just a day, in
a plane to see Molly crew andyeah, he stays on the go, but
he's back down man.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Is he back to doing his shows, right, I think?
Yeah that's the shows comingout, good yeah, I hope so, man.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, brother, I appreciate you, man yeah looking
forward to more collaboration.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you've got to look at theschedule.
We're back to recording, so wegot to put Gotta, put a day in
time.
I want to get you on our show.
I'd be able to talk and cut upand and quiz you on some stuff,
man.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So, before we go, what about what some advice
you'd like to give to leadership?
Oh you know, you know, let'slisten.
We all know, like you know, ayoung person getting on a job,
or younger person.
Mm-hmm you know.
You know they're gonna learnwhat they're gonna learn.
But if you could, if you wereand I hate that came for a day
thing, but what advice would yougive leadership?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, it's pretty simple.
I say it a lot, I joke a lot,but I can still walk into a room
and brief FBI supervisor, youknow, chief of police, sheriff.
But I but I like to joke and Iwould say for leadership One, be
approachable.
It's okay to joke if you have asense of humor if you don't try
(31:32):
to develop a little bit of one,to be more just, more
charismatic, mainly so thatOfficers can relate.
So the the main thing is talkto your people, know who they
are, know who your talent is inyour upper echelon.
So if you're chief and you'repromoting people to these higher
(31:52):
ranks, these districtcommanders or division
commanders, know those peopleand know their weaknesses.
Because I have seen the trendand and it's you know, multiple
departments are doing it.
But people are getting promotedoftentimes and they get kind of
they Outpunt their coverage, soto speak, like they just are not
(32:14):
, they don't have that level ofexperience to be at that, that
position.
So that's what I would sayleadership is got to be more
approachable and be able to sayyou are a Captain, you are a
lieutenant, a sergeant, handleyour section, you know and
(32:36):
Problem-solve and and don't beafraid to make a decision and go
for it.
You know You're being promotedbecause the department believes
that you know what you're doing.
Then go do that, because anofficer gets on scene, they
start making decisions andthey're telling people where to
go and they're pulling peopleout at gunpoint and they're
putting handcuffs on.
And they're very good, they'revery decisive, but sometimes up
(32:58):
the chain, people get promoted,promoted, promoted and and they
don't have that strongbackground.
So I would say that, like, like, keep your people Motivated and
put leadership where theirexpertise is.
Don't don't give your buddy a Apass and hook them up with that
easy job or whatever assignment.
(33:19):
Put people where they havetheir expertise and where
they're gonna moat may make themost Effective decisions and
then implement them.
It's not it's really not thathard, but you got to have a
spine and you got to haveconfidence in what you're doing
and I have seen people Not havethat confidence and that's a sad
(33:40):
that be able to make a decision.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, it's not that hard.
Hey, welcome to the Protectors.
This is the big reveal.
We are here talking to BCSanders.
Now, we talked about a littlebit.
What we're going to revealtonight is something, but it's
not everything, because you gotto keep a little mystery.
You know what I mean there, bc.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, yeah, just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how many times we've
been on a show together.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
A few, a few, yeah, I would say four, fiveish maybe.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Or five, some of the live stuff all over the place.
But we talk all the time, wetext all the time and you know,
bc, you're going throughsomething that I just went
through in March.
It's 20-something years in lawenforcement and then you're
pulling a plug, man, and I hatethat word, I hate that word.
That sounds terrible.
You're trying, you know, let'ssay you're going to pivot my
(01:05):
favorite word, pivot into a newphase of your life or a new
chapter of your life.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You know what I'm doing.
I'm giving up a seat forsomebody else to take my spot
and have as much fun as I had.
That's the way I look at it.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
You know, that's a damn good way to look at it.
I don't know if anybody's goingto.
You know, with my seat it waskind of like you know, yeah, you
don't want that seat, man, butanyway for BC man, like when you
first decided to take that stepand to leave law enforcement
after how many years now, like20 plus right.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, this will basically be a 21 year, so I'm
doing just an early retirement21 years when you first decided
to take it.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
you must have had like a hell of a lot of it.
Like you know, you still havebills to pay.
You still have a lot of lifeleft, oh yeah.
But, yeah, what was thatfeeling?
Like man Tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Uh, it was like a gradual progression.
The more I was writing and themore that was kind of taken off
and avenues were opening up forme, the more I started seeing
okay, at some point I'm going to, I'm going to have to either
decide to go full bore and keepwriting and push what I want to
do next or keep doing what I'mdoing in the police world.
(02:17):
But you know here, uh, we do 30year retirements or 25 year
retirements, or you can buy backsome military time and and get
time.
You know credit for that, uh.
So I just weighed out myoptions.
But the more I was writing andthe more I wanted to get into
that, the more I wanted to workon podcasting, merchandise,
(02:39):
doing some events.
Uh, I just thought now's thetime where I can retire and
actually get involved in doingwhat I want to do.
So it's not like I, it's notlike I hated law enforcement.
I'm not, um, frustrated with mydepartment, especially not like
my chief.
I'm kind of sad in that factthat I'm retiring when we have a
chief that is the old schoolcrime fighter, um, but also
(03:04):
forward thinking.
So I am going to miss that I,they're, they're getting ready
to take off and in my departmentand get back to the way it was
several years ago when we had alot of really good units doing a
lot of really good work.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, you were in a leadership position too, which
is it's a lot different now.
You know, may I miss the field?
I miss, I miss the old old days.
For me, like the end of mycareer, just yeah, it wasn't
that fun.
But knowing that you're goingto turn to badge and gun it, I'm
going to, I'm going to.
Well, the first thing is I'mgoing to try to make you cry
during this interview.
Now, oh, that's, that's easy.
(03:41):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
What you gotta do is mention, like the movie Simon
Birch, or you know the uh, uh.
Stand by me when when uh and uh, what's his name?
Or sitting there on the road,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah I moi되uis ça.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, so I was.
But do you have that kind oflike am I doing the right thing?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Mm.
Hmm, yeah, the idea, uh, and wealways say that like once you
realize kind of you're done, youknow, like your heart's not in
it.
It's not because it's kind ofcliche, but cop work is
different than just a regularjob.
I mean, it's something that youkind of have to sacrifice.
(04:56):
Going through that Academy, uh,you know, focusing on what you
want to do and what, whatassignments you want to take and
what you're willing tosacrifice.
You know some assignments arevery cushy and you can sit at a
desk and not do anything, oryou're out there like you were
on the border doing things onyour own, you know, solo out in
the desert or whatever.
(05:16):
Or as a patrol officer, you'rein a patrol car, you're
responding to chaos, and for meand for a lot of other people
that's what we wanted to do, nomatter what.
I mean I sacrificed a lot to dowhat I wanted to do and I was
very fortunate that a lot ofassignments were open for me,
(05:37):
because I kind of built abackground early on in patrol
with gangs and trying to be likean expert in just criminal
culture, and some of that I knewbefore I joined the police
department, just kind of growingup in the punk rock scene and
stuff.
But once I got on I just keptlearning and wanted to really
just focus on any kind oforganized crime or organized
(05:59):
threat, and so that if yourheart's not in it and then, like
you were saying, you go and youapply or you look at it and go,
ah, you know, I still got itPhysically, you got it Mentally.
You would smoke everybody inthe academy.
But if your heart's not thereafter a while you just kind of
lose interest.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
You know what I mean, yeah, it's like going back to
be that young guy again, a50-years-old, to be the new guy.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
If you can give me a.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
if I could find a reserve slot somewhere that was,
like you know, a fully sworntype reserve gig where I could
actually do like investigationsor do something.
I'm like I jump on a heartbeatI'd give my time for free.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Now some departments are going to like a like you
retire and then they'll hireretirees back If they've got
certain backgrounds or they'rewilling to do certain jobs, and
I think it's like 20 hours aweek.
But some departments look atlike a cold case investigators
so they may bring somebody backwith a homicide background and
(06:57):
they wouldn't go out and doactual interviews and work crime
scenes, but they would gothrough cold cases, assess them
and then basically make a to-dolist.
And so there have been someagencies that I've met with and
they've talked about that, notfor me, but I mean like for me
when I retire I'm not doing thatbut for their units, and I
thought that was pretty coolthat someone could retire and
(07:17):
still use that expertise and nottie up.
You know a full-timeinvestigator.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
But now you have a lot of creative outlet available
.
You know you started thepodcast a while ago.
You've been interviewed amillion times, you've been
speaking out about yourknowledge, your expertise and
everything, and now you'regetting into writing.
You've been into writing soyou've been building up these
outlets.
And that's one thing I tellpeople, mike, when you're
(07:44):
thinking about changing careerpaths even if, let's say, you've
only been on job five years butyou just know it's not right
for you, or you know you didyour time and you want to move
on to something else You'rebuilding these creative outlets
while you're still in the job.
You're not just stayingstagnant.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, I think it's like anything just having an
exit strategy Whether it'sgetting a gang member out of a
gang or a partner out of anabusive relationship.
You know there are just certainthings you got to do to plan
for that transition, because ifyou don't, then you're kind of
sitting there one day, eitherretired or resigned and you
(08:22):
don't have anything lined up.
And there are guys out there Isay guys, there are people out
there who will wait and thenthey'll retire and they have no
plan and they're scramblingaround at the last minute, you
know, trying to get a gig orwhatever.
If for some departments you canretire at 100%, so your salary
is your salary for the rest ofyour life.
(08:44):
So it always kind of amazes meSome people will retire and they
get very frustrated becausethey don't have anything lined
up.
And I kind of look at it and gowell, 25 or 30 years, you know
to line stuff up and maybe notbeat yourself up about it,
retire and work in the ease intosomething.
But like you've had stuffyou've been working on, you've
(09:05):
had, you know, outlets that arepositive and that are rewarding
for you and your personality.
I look at the same way withnewer officers and tell them all
the time, like, find a, find ahobby, find something to get
involved in outside of thiswhole police sphere, you know.
So if, whether it's, you know,reading, for me it was reading
(09:26):
and writing and and doinggraphic designs or having ideas
for certain merchandise andstuff like that, or pitching
ideas to to bands and um, youknow, uh, sharing artwork and
stuff.
You got to have something likethat.
But to transition out afterfive years or seven years, uh,
in police work you have amazingskills that you can capitalize
(09:49):
on.
But what do we do in our culture?
We don't like to see peopleresign early or leave.
It's sad.
It's almost like, um, peoplemake fun of officers sometimes
when they do resign, but thenyou see that officer a year
later and they have a great joband they're happy and and it's
like it's, you know, like, likesometimes just got to support
(10:10):
people and go look if you wantto resign and go do something
else.
Like for me, like you got myblessing, like I keep in touch
with me.
I don't, I don't want you to goout there and be frustrated or
mad.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I look at it.
I look at police work andemergency responders, first
responders and stuff.
It's kind of like a uh, it'salmost like a military tour, you
know.
It's almost like an enlistmentYou're serving you may not be
serving foreign um, and we bothknow, like a lot of people that
go to war don't really do a tonand but there's a lot of cops
(10:41):
that have seen some stuff.
Man, you know, four or five,two years, one year on a job,
six months on a job, you know,give them the same credibility
and give them the same kudos islike hey, you know what you did
four or five years.
Go and do something that youwant to do.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe like you've got to stay in
this job 20 years or we're goingto hate you.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
That's, but that is the culture Sometimes.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I know man it is.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I had a rookie uh, I used to be a training officer,
um on patrol for a couple ofyears and I had a rookie that
was in the Marine Corps, servedoverseas, and when he came to
our district, our district waswas wide open.
At that time we had, uh, one ofthe highest homicide rates in
our city's history and probablyabout 90% of those homicides
(11:27):
were occurring right there inour area or our location.
So he and I were going to a lotof murders and and shootings.
And he was only with me fornine weeks I think it was eight
weeks or something and towardsthe end he said I've seen more
dead bodies here than I saw overin Iraq or Afghanistan I forget
which one he was in, but but Iwas like okay, and and a little
(11:50):
you know, psychologist in me waslike, are you good with that?
Like like, talk to me, you knowwhat's, how's it making you
feel?
For him it was a lot of it was,I say, depressive, obviously,
but I don't think he was readyfor that.
I think that he thought becauseof the news and the city that
we were in it's a big city butit's not, you know, new York,
(12:12):
chicago or LA and it took him alittle bit to adapt to it.
You know, and also, aside fromthe murders, you're also going
to suicides, overdoses, uh,deaths, you know such child
deaths, elderly people passingaway, people passing away and
looking like you know they'rediscarded trash because they,
(12:34):
you know, they're sleeping in acup between some houses or
something.
So it was kind of an opener forhim and I always tried to
remember that too with you know,newer officers to be very
understanding that they're goingto see stuff that you know TV
and television kind ofsensationalizes it, um, but at
some point your brain has toprocess it and it may not be
(12:56):
that year, it may be five yearsdown the road.
For me it started about 15 yearsago because I've worked on a
homicide unit, uh, as adetective, a sergeant and as a
lieutenant and it it started onlike I said.
It just started kind of settingin and I and I started trying
to limit what I was beingexposed to If I was not directly
(13:17):
involved in something.
I didn't want to see the crimescene photos.
I had learned enough at thattime, I didn't need to keep
seeing it, um, and I didn't wantto keep taking on the um, I
guess the sorrow or the the sadfeelings coming from the
families and that sort of thing.
So I'll say this there if youknow people are listening,
they're in that field.
(13:37):
If it's homicide, you know,aggravated assault, sexual
assaults, like at some point youhave to switch it up and try to
do something different.
Um, if that begins to affectyou now, if it doesn't affect
you, then that's cool, drive on.
And if your department has apsychologist which I hope a lot
of departments do, or at leastwill pay for officers or agents
(13:59):
to go see a psychologist you goin there, you talk it out and
it's not like sitting on a couch, you take a walk around the
block or a building or something.
You can meet, like ourpsychologist department.
You meet anywhere.
I can call this person up, textthis person or just get on the
phone and say, hey, we got 10minutes, I just want to talk
about what I just saw and get itout and um, it's amazing to be
(14:21):
able to do that.
So some departments are alittle more progressive than
others and they are switching itup.
So I'm excited to at least seethat and exercise and yoga and
clean eating and tellingofficers you know it's okay if
you don't drink, and if youdrink now you can cut back some.
You know you don't get.
Getting drunk every night isprobably not going to help with
(14:42):
what you're seeing.
You know it's going to makethings worse.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know, unfortunately your department is
an exception to the norm andthat's a lot of.
That's a big discussion we needto start having everywhere and
everyone.
You know the military isfinally embracing it Now.
You're finally seeing people atgeneral level saying, hey, you
know what?
I have a problem, I have issues.
I want to get help.
But the way what you justdescribed is something I think
would be perfect.
Like you said, you can reachout to your texts, you can take
(15:07):
walks, you can do other things.
It shouldn't just be like ohman, come on, bro, we all see
that.
You know, come on.
You know the gallows humor andthen deflect and then,
especially if you're in amanagement position, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, it's it's.
It's weird because when I goton the department the older
officers or the seasonedofficers we had a different
psychologist, but we still had adepartment psychologist, but
they just didn't seem to embraceit, you know, and it could have
been the person I don't know.
I never went to that person atthe time.
So we had a differentpsychologist come on board and
(15:44):
that person was like top notch.
So probably within the last 10years, those of us that have
kind of come up through theranks and work different
assignments we try to influencethe others.
Make sure you're utilizing thedepartment psychologist and
should get over that stigma thatjust because you go talk to a
therapist doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with you.
(16:06):
As a matter of fact, it's kindof filled.
You know 10 times better.
The same way a coach can showyou how to how to dunk or shoot
a layup or something you knowwhat I mean or throw a football.
It's like you're kind ofdealing with the same thing.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And you're not broken man.
You're not.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
You know this, this idea also that everyone has to
talk about their feelings orwhat they're going through.
Not everybody has to.
You know, different people arewired different and I know I'm
taking this off on a tangent,but I don't necessarily have to
talk about everything I see orwhat I'm processing.
I can sometimes just process itmentally and move on.
(16:46):
If I want to talk about it, Ican talk about it.
But I also know there arepeople that are hardwired a
little bit differently and theydon't necessarily want to talk
about it, and and that's cooltoo.
I mean, my main thing is justso that people have some kind of
outlet and that officers andagents and deputies just support
one another and realize, likesome days are just not going to
(17:07):
be as as great as the other days, and psychologically some
people can't take that.
The same way they can't take aperson jumping out of a car
during a traffic stop andthreatening to kill them.
You know, for some people theymay go into vapor lock or that,
or they may just like freeze upor do whatever.
(17:28):
Most of the training nowadays is, you know, simulation driven,
scenario driven.
You kind of find out early onin an academy.
Okay, at least on a scenarioyou can function.
You know, in real life maybe.
But the more you do thescenarios, maybe we can
condition you to react a littlemore.
You know reliable sense and notnot spazzing out the way we've
(17:50):
seen some people do and they andthey resign and that's okay.
You know they maybe, maybe theyjust that's not their thing.
They don't want to put theirlife on the line.
I fully understand that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, when you bring up the outlets too.
It was like you and I bothstarted having an out little
while ago with the podcastingand everything.
Now, not everybody has to getpodcasting or writing or
whatever, but find somethingoutside of the job Because
that's going to help you buildto leave.
You're going to leaveeventually, you're not going to
stay on a job eventually andyou're going to want to have
something to back up.
(18:20):
Let's take away all themonetary stuff.
You still need to have somesort of outlet, some sort of
mission.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And that's um.
I think that more that's kindof more or more accepted now
with newer officers coming inbecause they're starting to hear
that a lot more.
Uh, but like when I first goton it, it doesn't seem like it
was really that long ago until Istopped and think about it and
I'm like man, that's like theequivalent of me in high school
and like whatever, like like1960, something you know, and
(18:52):
then I stopped and go.
Oh, a lot of time differencebetween you know, mid sixties to
the nineties or whatever Likeit's and maybe let's not talk
about time.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I am, you know, I still think 20 years ago.
Every time I see that meme, Istill think it's true.
I still think 20 years ago islike net eighties.
Yeah, oh, I do.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I do it all the time like that I completely forget
about, like the 2000s and in2010s and stuff.
I'm just I don't know mybrain's like stopped in the
nineties until you know, maybethe last five years.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I know it was like you know.
I turn on the the cameratonight I'm like holy crap,
that's a lot of gray hair.
Oh, you're good though man,yeah, we're going.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, I think that's the thing now, right, it's gray
hair Like uh, sure man, I'll gowith it.
People like gray.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So you, uh, you're excited about this next chapter,
which is good, and I'm gladyou're coming out to talk about
it.
Now you're, what do you thinkabout?
Like you know, you and I weretalking about, like you know,
let's not just do the writingand podcast and stuff like that.
Let's get together with peopleand just start building
community.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, I mean the, the writing thing is great.
Uh, consulting work so startingto get into some consulting
stuff.
So my co-host on the podcast ofdisruptors is is ski, and he
and I've worked some assignmentstogether FBI task force, gang
stuff.
We've taught, you know, we havetaught classes together.
(20:16):
We're moving into a differentphase where we're going to
collaborate and do some moretraining here in the future.
Um, but doing consulting worklike that, which actually kind
of came out of left field for us.
We went on um field craftsurvival their podcast with
Kevin Estella and had a greattime and and a listener reached
out to us and said hey, I, Ilike what you're talking about.
(20:38):
I'd love for you to talk to myfamily.
I've got some some um kids thatare going off to college in
different states.
Can we just have like a zoommeeting or something?
Uh, so we were able to do thatand and had a blast doing it.
I had a lot of really goodfeedback and we just do it more
like a discussion it's not likea straightforward PowerPoint and
(20:59):
you know, you're throwing aknife hand and telling people
how they got to do this and thatit's.
It's very laid back.
It's just an open end ofdiscussion and we covered
everything from basically kindof hardening your vehicle for
break ins and in apartmentcomplexes or college campuses to
um reading a little bit ofbehavioral um cues if someone's
(21:21):
a threat or even if someone istrying to kind of pull one over
on you or even just getinformation from you.
So it just it was a greatdiscussion.
So we do things like that andthen then we feel better because
we're sharing our informationin a similar fashion, the way we
would uh on the street or maybein a presentation to some
(21:41):
citizens or stuff.
So doing that and then tryingto work some of these events.
We've got some stuff coming upwith field craft in December, um
, so field craft has an officeuh in North Carolina, so they're
planning a Christmas party andstill kind of kind of in the, in
the weeds of how we're going todo it, but we're looking at um
(22:01):
maybe doing something like a diehard uh movie dress up kind of
thing.
Yeah, Just kind of theme it, butwant to bring people into their
facility and talk, shareinformation, just have a, have a
good time, Um, and eventually,you know, do some more events,
ski, and I'll probably startmaybe booking some bands and
(22:22):
trying to do some shows down theline, you know, a year or two
from now.
But I just I'm a social person,I love talking to people and I
think the more we can kind of dothat and kind of reconnect, uh
and and not live in our bubblethe way we kind of had to, you
know, for the last maybe year ortwo, um, with restrictions and
things like that, it's kind oflike we got to get back in
(22:44):
society to sitting on a tailgateand telling stories or
something you know the knowledgetransfer, man, the knowledge
transfer.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
That's.
That's one thing I liked abouttalking about Mike Lover too,
was he, you know, talking aboutthat community.
It's not always about preppingand this and that's just about
talking.
Yeah, just having conversations.
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
You had him on your show, uh, a couple of weeks ago,
maybe about a month back, ormaybe it's um, yeah, um, but,
but yeah, great episode.
Um, the information there.
I think people kind of getthings twisted and they just
start looking at it and if yousay anything about being
prepared or learning about youknow uh, environment that could
(23:28):
be either be hostile or criminalor whatever it like.
People sort of get the stigmathat you're now going to talk
down to them or you're you knowwhat I mean.
It gets a little weird.
So I always try to tell peopleI have a good time, I laugh and
joke, you know, and I can teachyou things that can save your
(23:49):
life, but we can still enjoythat there's a discussion and
not and not have a big ego oranything like yeah.
I like those guys because theydo that.
They share this information,and it could be everything from
natural disasters to Firearmstraining and stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
so not every day has to be like a doomsday.
You know it's like you can havefun and you know me, like the
shooting sports man, it just getpeople into learning something
new.
Yeah, and the field craft stuffis so awesome and you know,
both know like you know gettingout there in the woods and you
know I miss tracking, I missed,I missed cuz I grew up in Jersey
.
But the nice part, theappellation part.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
You know, for something.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Oh my gosh, not like the turnpike, the garden, garden
state parkway.
You know the garden stateparkway is good for some things,
man, but not, not, not like youknow it's, it's kind of a hole.
You know, you say we're fromNewark and all that, but I lived
up at a Delaware water gapwhere it was just a beautiful
man appellations Get up hiking,you get out there in the woods
(24:52):
and you just kind of learn moreabout yourself.
Like you know, I want morepeople to do that stuff, and
especially with their you knowtheir kids, man, get your kids
out there and take a walk withthem.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, they were just teaching a class last weekend on
land navigation and a lot ofpeople would be like, well, I
don't need to read a map.
Well, okay, maybe you don't,but people were having a good
time learning.
Hey, you do yeah and it's kindof like a feeling of
accomplishment, the same thatmaybe someone felt in school
(25:25):
getting an A or, you know,winning some event, and sports
are doing whatever it's like.
You know you could be, whateverage, take the course and learn a
really cool skill and then goout there and apply it and, just
like you said, like Nothingfeels better than than
traversing a land navigationcourse and you actually succeed.
Now what's worse is when youget lost, and I've been lost
(25:48):
before.
And the army, and it's a.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Hey, come on, I was a butter bar.
I was an infantry butter bar.
I believe me, I know what it'slike to get lost.
Yeah, but no, that's not thatsense of accomplishment.
When you get from point eight,when you get the point and then
you get the next point, you'relike I made it.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, this is real, you can really do this yeah, and
it's funny to the more weinteract our brains, like we're
really getting, like we'rechecking out from using our
brains for anything like I'mkind of silly, but really we
have these devices that the GPS,that maps everything, tells you
to turn left, turn right, likeyou don't even have to write
(26:25):
down the directions, like whenyou know.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
We were kids, we had to do the map quest or no.
Like back when I used to workdrugs, it was a Thomas guide man
.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, thomas guide, you be like there was a GPS you
know and you're yeah, yeah, Iwas a, I was a brand new officer
and I was taking the city orthe district map and I was
taking a piece of paper over andI was tracing the main avenues
of approach, like our main routeand where the hospital was.
And you know, because you gottaknow how to get the hospital,
and some of the other officerswe're like you know what are you
(26:57):
doing?
Rookie, you know, and I'm likeI'm learning this, this route,
you know, and they didn'tunderstand what I was doing.
But in my brain, yeah, I was arookie but I was drawing the map
because I had to picture to mybrain, I knew when I got in the
car, when the stress hits, Ihave to see that aerial view,
like reading a map and army.
I mean it worked a lot easier.
(27:19):
But yeah, I just tell peoplelike, get out and unplug, and
I've spent most of the summer atthe beach as much as I possibly
can, enjoying life.
You know, sitting with my lady.
Just, you know, sometimes we'resitting there listening to
music, sometimes we're justtalking.
We were out there the othernight until probably midnight
(27:41):
looking at the constellationsand it was a meteor shower.
I forget what it's called, butevery year in like mid August.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
There's a witness man .
It's called the UAP.
We had that shit.
Weren't, they wouldn't do thatshow together.
The UAP show.
I didn't remember, man, it waslike a live show, like that UAPs
oh, but legit.
We just, we saw like stars thatnot sure they were shooting was
open, man.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
The waves were rolling in the background, but
People got to do it, man.
They I mean get unplugged, getget focused.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Okay, what's okay?
We talked, we talked, we talked.
I saw offspring over theweekend excellent show.
What's your next show, man?
What's?
What's the next concert comingup?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Chrome eggs man.
Yeah, they are touring andthey're hitting some, some shows
in the south.
So yeah, I'm going to a chromeag show.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I might have to hit you up on that.
One man, we'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I might have to do that yeah, dri is coming through
as well.
I don't know if you rememberdirty rotten imbeciles, but they
were like Kind of punk and thenthey throw and they crossed
over like thrash.
But man, they're touring andeveryone is like these bands
still.
They still got it like theybring that kind of energy.
So those are the two showscoming up.
(29:04):
I missed gorilla biscuits andH2O.
They were touring together andI just there was no.
There were no shows in thesouth, and I even reached out to
the guitarist for H2O and he'slike, yeah, we just we don't
have anything on the books.
I think maybe they're gonna doa Florida festival, but yeah.
So I've missed a few shows,unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah yeah, I gotta get out there, man.
I you know I have cheap willtravel man.
I got my 2016 Jeep.
I'll drive all over the place,man that's how I have to do it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I can't, you know, most, most shows that are in the
south Are going to be like inone state maybe, and there's
like one venue that'll play someshows.
So you hit that one quite a bit.
But I call some sublime Acouple weeks, a couple weeks
back, man, that was anincredible show.
There were a couple other bandsthat played like slightly
(29:54):
stupid I think we're theheadliners, but I think a lot of
people were there to see someof them.
It was, it was a good show.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I've been trying to hit link up with John to go see
Motley crew and stuff and deathleopard.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Oh, you tell me, silver Spare.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
John, yeah, silver Spare.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
John.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
I gotta, I'd love to see those guys Awesome but I'm
like I missed him.
I'd have to travel to Japan tosee him.
Like I don't know if I'm up forlike a day, like just a day, in
a plane to see Molly crew andyeah, he stays on the go, but
he's back down man.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Is he back to doing his shows, right, I think?
Yeah that's the shows comingout, good yeah, I hope so, man.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, brother, I appreciate you, man yeah looking
forward to more collaboration.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you've got to look at theschedule.
We're back to recording, so wegot to put Gotta, put a day in
time.
I want to get you on our show.
I'd be able to talk and cut upand and quiz you on some stuff,
man.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So, before we go, what about what some advice
you'd like to give to leadership?
Oh you know, you know, let'slisten.
We all know, like you know, ayoung person getting on a job,
or younger person.
Mm-hmm you know.
You know they're gonna learnwhat they're gonna learn.
But if you could, if you wereand I hate that came for a day
thing, but what advice would yougive leadership?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, it's pretty simple.
I say it a lot, I joke a lot,but I can still walk into a room
and brief FBI supervisor, youknow, chief of police, sheriff.
But I but I like to joke and Iwould say for leadership One, be
approachable.
It's okay to joke if you have asense of humor if you don't try
(31:32):
to develop a little bit of one,to be more just, more
charismatic, mainly so thatOfficers can relate.
So the the main thing is talkto your people, know who they
are, know who your talent is inyour upper echelon.
So if you're chief and you'repromoting people to these higher
(31:52):
ranks, these districtcommanders or division
commanders, know those peopleand know their weaknesses.
Because I have seen the trendand and it's you know, multiple
departments are doing it.
But people are getting promotedoftentimes and they get kind of
they Outpunt their coverage, soto speak, like they just are not
(32:14):
, they don't have that level ofexperience to be at that, that
position.
So that's what I would sayleadership is got to be more
approachable and be able to sayyou are a Captain, you are a
lieutenant, a sergeant, handleyour section, you know and
(32:36):
Problem-solve and and don't beafraid to make a decision and go
for it.
You know You're being promotedbecause the department believes
that you know what you're doing.
Then go do that, because anofficer gets on scene, they
start making decisions andthey're telling people where to
go and they're pulling peopleout at gunpoint and they're
putting handcuffs on.
And they're very good, they'revery decisive, but sometimes up
(32:58):
the chain, people get promoted,promoted, promoted and and they
don't have that strongbackground.
So I would say that, like, like, keep your people Motivated and
put leadership where theirexpertise is.
Don't don't give your buddy a Apass and hook them up with that
easy job or whatever assignment.
(33:19):
Put people where they havetheir expertise and where
they're gonna moat may make themost Effective decisions and
then implement them.
It's not it's really not thathard, but you got to have a
spine and you got to haveconfidence in what you're doing
and I have seen people Not havethat confidence and that's a sad
(33:40):
that be able to make a decision.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, it's not that hard.
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