September 21, 2023 • 49 mins
Ever wondered how modern training systems within law enforcement and civilian markets are evolving? Join the conversation with Daryell Harmon, James Schramm and Mike Dice from Armament Systems and Procedures (ASP) as they unpack the journey. From the original expandable baton through to push-button batons, solid training weapons and tactical flashlights, the face of law enforcement tools is changing. The trio illuminate these changes, and give us unique insights into how ASP uses feedback from the field to innovate and better serve these critical sectors.
The discussion doesn't stop at batons and flashlights. We also delve into the crucial significance of handcuffs, and how ASP has led the industry with design and training innovations. The transition from the traditional Swing Through Bow cuff to the modern keyless double locking cuff revolutionizes security and officer safety. We bust common myths about handcuffing, and shed light on the game-changing Plus Cuff.
Lastly, ever thought about your own personal safety? ASP's Be Your Own Defender initiative empowers civilians with law enforcement techniques, helping them to take control of their own protection. We explore this empowering initiative in-depth, discussing the practical Defender kit and ASP's commitment to offering free training.
https://www.asp-usa.com/
https://www.asp-usa.com/pages/training-programs
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey, really cool show today with the guys from
Armament Systems and Procedures,asp.
I have Darrell Harman, jamesTram and Mike Dice, all coming
from major, large scale agenciesnow working with ASP, in just
incredible conversation todayabout their products, about the
(00:33):
training systems they have outthere, not only for law
enforcement but the ones they'regoing to have for the civilian
market.
So check out this awesomeconversation with ASP.
Hey, welcome to the ProtectorsPodcast.
I'm really excited about thispodcast because one, now that we
have the Protectors Foundationfull swing ahead and we are
helping out the protectors onthe front lines, this
(00:54):
organization, this company,really, really stepped up and
has been supporting thefoundation, providing training
equipment.
Excited to talk about it, butI'm also excited to talk about
the modernization of thiscompany.
Since 20 plus years ago, when Iwent into federal law
enforcement, to now, asp hasgone so far from when I
(01:15):
originally first started usingASP.
Whether it's the ASP, whetherit's handguns, whether it's
anything, any training equipment, any tactical equipment you
need.
It has changed so much.
Welcome to the show, guys.
Feel free to just chime in andsay who you are in just a quick
two seconds.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Jason, I'm Darrell Harmon, and thank you, man.
It's a privilege to be here onthis podcast with you and with
my other two cohorts that wehave.
I'm the VP of sales with ASP.
We've been around since 1976 asa company itself, and our
training has went from anexpandable baton out to batons
(02:03):
that have a push button typeclosure to them, to concealable
batons for the executiveprotection officer, to having
solid training weapons, tohaving training weapons you can
manipulate magazines out of, tohaving multiple different styles
of restraints, both hard andsoft, disposable restraints, and
(02:25):
then tactical flashlights.
We are just excited about wherewe've come from and what we
have in store in the future.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Hey, jason, thanks for having me on.
My name is James Shram, talkingabout the evolution of training
.
I became an ASP trainer nearly20 years ago and I like what
you're saying.
When you first started usingASP Back then, training
consisted only of the expandablebaton for our trainer
certification.
It has since changeddrastically, since 2004 to now,
(02:59):
where we incorporate flashlightsand handcuffs.
Soon we're going to be talkingabout the civilian market or
pepper spray or defender.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Jason.
Yes, thanks for having us onthe show, very humbled.
My name is Mike Dice.
Again, I was hired on in 2015as a trainer.
I can tell you one thing aboutour company the camaraderie that
we have is unlike anything I'veever experienced.
We have some of the best people, some of the best trainers
(03:37):
worldwide.
Sometimes we get together oncea year, sometimes we get
together every couple of years,and I'll tell you what it's
unlike anything I've ever been apart of.
So thanks for having us andlooking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, the training piece is huge.
We're going to really get intothat.
We're really going to hit thathome in a little while.
But there's one thing thatalways bothered me.
I love ASP.
I used to carry it when I wasin a boarder patrol.
We had to have something eitherpepper spray or an ASP.
We had to have the expandablebaton and I know one thing is
like when you extend it andhaving to get it back into place
(04:12):
has been the biggest gripe ever.
And then when I talked to youall back in SHOT Show, it was
like no, we got the new products.
Not only do we have the pushbutton products, which is,
believe me, it's like a gamechanger, because can you imagine
you're in someone's like youknow, double wide, you're in
someone's apartment, you're insomeone's house and you go.
Okay, it's for everybody outthere new to law enforcement
(04:32):
equipment when you extend abaton, you have to get the baton
back into place, get it backinto battery.
In order to do that, a lot oftimes you would have to, like,
bang it on a hard surface andthat means you're going to bang
it on a floor.
Now, I don't know how manypeople have done it.
I wish there was a study butyou bang a baton on the floor
and it leaves like a littleindentation or something like
(04:53):
that, a little concrete.
But now you get the push button.
So nowadays we're in the newcentury where you just push that
button, boom, it's back.
And also, the other thing withthe new expandable batons is the
executive protection ones.
I mean, these fit in your suitpocket or anything.
So let's talk about thedevelopment of this and
obviously you guys are takingthe input from the field and
(05:15):
employing it in the marketingnot just the marketing, but in
the production of it.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, jason, what I'll do is I'll jump on how we
got there and then I'll pass itover to my guys here who are
trainers and let them talk aboutthe use scene, the usages of it
and what we're going to do andwhat they specialize in
especially.
And so we pride ourselves as acompany, taking information back
(05:42):
from the field and reallyputting it into research and
development and making somethingas a worthwhile product.
I kind of get on my boss's good, bad nerve side.
Everyone's walks.
I'm like, hey, sir, we arefirst and foremost a training
company.
And he looks at me and he'slike, no, we're a manufacturer.
And I'm like, no, we justhappen to manufacture the best
(06:03):
products in the world.
We are first and foremost atraining company.
And in that training company wedo really take stuff back from
the field.
And what we heard was hey,banging friction lock batons on
the ground is just rough.
You know, that's dinosaur,that's seriously old head, right
.
So a friction lock is like anold wheel gun.
It's always going to work,right.
If you have an revolver, it'sreally simple bullet trigger,
(06:26):
hammer slams, bullet goes out,right, it's great.
Well, it's like that with thefriction baton.
So we listen to the field andthere are some people like man,
when you're smacking that batonon the ground, it's violent,
looking, right, you might havejust had to use it on someone to
gain compliance, and now you'reusing this violent action to
close it.
(06:47):
And hey, and you know, some ofthe younger guys are a little
softer and you know, kindler,gentler, some of us are getting
up a little older and our kneesdon't bend as easy Sounds like
rice paper when we're trying tobend down.
And so we needed to find a wayto be able to close the baton
efficiently and effectively inits action.
(07:10):
So that's why we came up withwhat we came up with and then
saying, hey, there are more thanjust the street beat guys who
are out there who need this, andthere's a lot of guys in
executive protection, there's alot of guys doing plainclothes
security.
Maybe we should get somethingfor them.
Even the detective, theplainclothes guy who goes out
there I know it's hard tobelieve, but even they talk to
(07:32):
bad guys, right, I mean, theydeal with people at their houses
who maybe murdered suspects,and you need something between
your fists and bang.
And so that's what we did withour, why we did what we did with
our expandable batons.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
All right.
So when we're out thereteaching, I mean our job's
pretty easy, jason, and I alwaystell all the students I said,
listen, you can design theperfect baton for your liking If
you don't have a specific SOPthat dictates what you have to
carry in your agency.
We have a lot of options andone of them being the Talon
Baton.
Right and like Adarel alludedto, nobody's getting any younger
(08:12):
and you could.
You know, I've done classeswhere we lose half the class on
just the closing because you gotto bend down.
People are throwing their backsout, people throwing their
knees out.
So now I got a Talon Baton, Ican open it with my hand and I
can close it in my hand.
I mean it's so simple.
So I mean our job is very easy.
So when I do that demonstrationin a class, people are like,
wow, what can I get my hands on?
(08:33):
Let me see it.
So we're not only gonna teachor show a PowerPoint and kind of
do the specs, and then you know, let you know how it all
operates, and then we're gonnatransition and actually let you
use it and actually go throughdrills and actually let you get
used to it, and by the end ofthese classes.
I mean, they're coming to itand they're coming to us and
letting us like wow, I got toget my hands on one of these
things, so our job is prettyeasy.
(08:54):
It's the cat's meow, so tospeak.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
With that said, it's funny, our training, our three
day training courses forinstructors there's still a lot
of people that use quote,unquote the antiquated baton,
the Fritzelach baton.
So we have to still train themin how to use it and teach it to
the guys that are stillcarrying it.
Some agencies don't have thebudget to go and get the newer
(09:21):
baton, the town baton.
What's something that someofficers don't realize is the
scabbard they carry for theirFritzelach allows them to put
the baton away.
If they don't have theopportunity to close it, they
can put the baton away open.
I don't know how many times Ishow that to someone in a class
and they say to me I never knewthis scabbard was designed so
(09:41):
you can put your baton away inthe open mode.
Just to echo what Dara wassaying about federal agencies or
playing close guys, I've hadthe opportunity to train some
federal agencies and these guyswill admit to a man that they
would not carry an expandablebaton because it was too big, it
was too bulky, it was too heavy.
Coming out with the age ofbatons, having a low profile put
(10:05):
it in your suit, put it in yourpocket made it so much easier
for them to have that forceoption with them.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
When you talk about the equipment prices and
everything, you guys you have areally good price point between
the top of your line equipmentand the bottom you're not gonna
say bottom line, but the lowerprice modules.
This also goes into.
The next thing I really wannatalk about is handcuffs.
The same handcuff philosophyhas been around forever.
The same type of lockingmechanisms, the same double lock
(10:33):
and everything, and anybodyknows.
It's very easy when you're atransport A to B and someone is
very compliant hey, you knowwhat?
You could put those really nicesteel handcuffs on me and
double lock them with yourhandcuff key.
But you know your one system.
I was looking at the handcuffs.
What were they?
The ultra plus handcuffs whereyou could just push button to
(10:54):
double lock.
So for the civilian out thereand the reason I'm saying for
the civilian out there isbecause we're gonna really
hammer down the civilian marketfor ASP here in a few minutes
but when you're using handcuffs,when you don't latch it them
down or you don't double securethem with a double locking
system, it has the opportunityto keep cinching the subject
(11:16):
that's wearing them and it couldcause injury Really and it can
cause really bad injuries.
So what happens is.
Asp came up with a doublelocking mechanism where you just
pretty much push it down andit's good to go.
When you're going to purchaseitems like this, you have to
look at it kind of like hey, youknow what it might be at my
price point, but is it gonna be?
Are you gonna be in this careerfor a very long time?
(11:38):
And cost-benefit analysis iskind of up there.
So I do wanna talk about themodernization of the ASP
handcuffs and a lot of peopledon't even realize that ASP
makes me handcuffs.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Jason, it's interesting you say that portion
.
We'll be doing demonstrations,right, and so we have a way that
we do things at ASP train ortrain and sell or sell.
And so our sales directors goout and they'll do trade shows,
but they may tap our trainers onthe shoulder, because trainers
train and be like hey, Mike, canyou come down here and do this
(12:12):
show with me, Like Mike did theAmerican Corrections Association
a couple of weeks back inPhiladelphia.
Or, James, hey, I need you tocome out here and meet with this
major agency in the Northeastand help me demonstrate what
goes on.
My guys know the ins and outsof the cuffs.
They can walk it through andtell you all about the cuff, but
(12:34):
having an operator come throughand tell you why that's great,
is amazing, and that's one ofthe things that we really try to
get into.
The same cuff, the Swing ThroughBow, what we look at as a
traditional cuff that's beenaround since 1912.
There were no modifications ofthat original cuff until 1985
(12:57):
when the Hins Cuff was born.
Neither one of those were ourinventions.
Right, it's not the modern cuffnor the Hins Cuff was our
invention.
But in the early 2000s, rightaround the time, James came on
as a trainer.
We began our venture intohandcuffs and we've had
(13:17):
handcuffs for almost 20 yearsnow and people like ask mixed
cuffs.
Yes, we do, we make the bestones in the world.
We took things like having ageometrical shape, a conical
shape of the geometry of thecuff, so that the cuff itself
wraps the wrist as opposed tocutting into the wrist.
(13:38):
Your average handcuffing lawsuitis like $35,000.
That's an average handcufflawsuit per year.
So you can choose to pay nowand buy a little bit of a cuff
or you can choose to pay maybelater in a lawsuit.
It's kind of how we look atthis and we started that out and
you had to have a key to unlockand you have to have a key to
double lock and then we came outwith this keyless double lock,
(14:00):
the plus cuff that you'retalking about, which is
phenomenal I can take the cuffsout, I can put the cuffs on you
and then, without having toremove my key, use my thumb into
a slot and double lock the cuff.
And that has kind of been a gamechanger for us how we
manipulate our cuffs, when itcomes to radius edges, when it
(14:21):
comes to deep set, cutting lockteeth, all the cool innovations,
no one else out there isinnovating cuffs, right?
Nobody is out there looking tosay how can we modernize cuffs
except ASP and we're luckyenough to be able to look in the
field, have phenomenal guyscome to us and tell us what they
want key holes on both sides,and why is that important?
(14:45):
We still hear the people go ina very archaic thought if the
key holes aren't up, you can'tcuff anybody.
That's wrong, it's against therules.
We hear people say well, yougotta fight people in the cuffs,
and none of those are old myths, right.
Those are things that if you dothe right training, you don't
have to fight people into thehandcuffs.
You either fight or you cuff.
(15:05):
We don't do both right, and sothat's where we as a training
cadre have really come acrossand really developed and how
those trainings actually workwith the new cuffing systems.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
So James and I now are on the other side of the
spectrum when we go out andactually teach hand cuffing
right.
And how do you make handcuffing interesting?
And I always find that to be achallenge because it's not your
high speed running a gun andit's not your strikes, your
takedowns, you're not using thatbaton and hitting.
So we have to kind of set thattone.
(15:43):
But with our cuffs it's easyfor us because we have a couple
of tricks.
We have a training hand cuffthat we can apply to live wrists
.
We do not have to utilize a keyand we can just take them right
off.
So that does speed up somedrills.
Because what happens is youteach a traditional hand cuffing
course, people start goingthrough the motions right.
(16:05):
They kind of start gettinglaxatives.
You're only as fast as your youknow slowest person.
So what happens is you'resomeone's fumbling around with
the key.
Then you kind of lose themomentum of the class and people
start smoking and joking andthen before long it's like no
one's taking hand cuffingserious.
When hand cuffing is a big deal, that will set the tone of any
arrest that you're going intothe danger zone, you're putting
(16:25):
hand, you're taking handcuffsand putting them on somebody.
People don't like to be touched.
So again we have those littletricks where with those training
cuffs that speeds it up.
Now we use the training batonsso we can use those to simulate
live wrists and we can use thehandcuffs to put them on the
training batons.
You can slide them right offNow.
That speeds up and that keepsall your students engaged.
(16:46):
So the our training programkind of speaks for itself and
people really get engaged andreally enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
I think also with our handcuff program and when we
run our courses, we make itprinciple based, not so much
technique based.
So we tell them it doesn'tmatter what handcuff you're
using.
It could be your trifoldflexible, one time use only cuff
, or it can go all the way up toyour rigid cuff.
All the principles will remainthe same.
And they really like thatphilosophy saying I don't have
(17:20):
to worry about what cuff I pullout.
I've already learned how toapply them.
And it doesn't matter if it'schained or hinged, and it
doesn't matter if the person isstanding kneeling or prone on
the ground.
The principles don't change.
And I think they really likeadopting that philosophy when
they take it back to theirtraining units and their
agencies.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Let's talk about training.
That's a that's a huge thingfor law enforcement and, like I,
a man I think I've said thisabout 50 times on my my podcast
you know, coming from the feds,if I want, if you want to go to
training, it's like you knowwhat put in the form.
You know you got the budget.
Someone has a budget.
If we don't have the budget,we'll get someone other agency
to sponsor you or whatever.
The reality of policing and 99%of people that under I've known
(18:02):
a police officer or deputy oranything know that there's no
budget out there.
There's no budget for training.
It's tough to get training.
It's tough to get solidtraining and training this
dynamic and that's going to work.
It's going to work towards youreveryday survivability.
So let's talk about what ASP isdoing in the training realm and
providing training support tothe law enforcement agencies out
(18:24):
there.
I didn't realize that ASP has aton of free training.
I didn't know that, thought Iwas like hey, you know what, you
want to buy some equipment,we'll train you on it.
I didn't know there was likethe whole different aspects hey,
you want to sell something,you're going to sell it over
here, but you have a wholetraining kind of right, what
goes up to including gettingpeople to become ASP certified
instructors.
So let's talk about that andfeel free, you guys don't have
(18:46):
to go on a water, you can justjump in.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
You know it's funny.
You were imagine I was thinkingabout that with training and
budgets back what I was still onthe job as a police officer.
You're right.
Asking for training was likethe worst thing in the world and
you have to find the person whocontrols the money to get the
training and if they don't likewhat you're asking for, you'll
never get the training.
(19:11):
A lot of times the decisionmaker has no idea of the
training that you're looking foror asking for.
They might have an idea whatthey want, but it doesn't
pertain to what you're trying toaccomplish or your goal of what
you're trying to train yourofficers on.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
So, jason, you kind of open up a loaded question,
right.
I mean, I think you couldprobably spend the entire
podcast just on this topic alone, and you kind of already
alluded to it, right.
I mean limited resources acrossthe country with.
You know, far as funding goes,equipment goes, and so we do
provide free training.
We give a lot of free equipmentaway.
(19:47):
Another issue with training andI'm going to be a little biased
with ASP, because again I feellike we are the best.
We have some of the besttrainers in the world.
We have completely mastered ourtradecraft.
We take the time to work withour students.
I mean, how many times have youtaken a course and the
(20:09):
instructors there, just to youknow, get paid and get that
check in the box right and moveon.
So that's not what we do.
You're not guaranteed to passour course, you have to earn it,
and what I mean by that is iswe're willing to work with you,
but you're not just going to gothrough that class and make
mistakes and move on.
I can tell you, early on in mycareer I took a close quarters
(20:32):
knife defense course and it wasso complicated the techniques
that the instructor was teachingus.
There was no instructor studentratio.
So one instructor is trying toteach multiple students and what
happened was he's trying toteach a technique to us and he'd
have to use one of the studentsas the bad guy and he's trying
(20:54):
to tell us how to attack himright, and we'd have to go up
there like, oh, I need you to dothis.
And it reminded me I was.
If you ever watched thatSaturday Night Live Jim Carrey
skit, you know Jim Carrey's the.
You know he's trying to teachself defense and he's trying to
teach the knife defense and he'syou're attacking me wrong, and
that's all I can envision.
Like it had to be a perfectscenario.
So it was like a three daycourse and it was a long drive
(21:18):
for me and I can tell you rightnow I got nothing out of that
course.
It was too, it was too complex,it wasn't practical to real
life, it was nothing I could useand it was really wasting my
time.
So we really break down oursystem by the numbers.
We go slow, make sure everybodyunderstands it.
And it's practical, it's reallife.
(21:39):
You can utilize our techniquesin a real life situation and
that's what sets us apart.
I mean, we have the mostpassionate instructors around.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
You know, mike, you talk about using them in real
life situations.
I remember training a guy.
We were right outside of SanAntonio shirts, texas, and we
did a class and we tell peopleyou could use what we're
teaching you tonight.
Right, because they some ofthese guys go and work shifts.
Some of these guys are workingand training during the day,
right, and they're working atnight.
And I had a guy come back in onday three.
(22:13):
He goes you can go, believethis, sir, I'm like what
happened and he goes.
You talked about here for twodays at 2.30 in the morning and
you and the bad guy behindapartment complex and you're
going to hear me in your headand he goes that my radio
wouldn't transmit.
I was in a bad low spot.
I couldn't get my radio out.
It was me and the bad guy and Iutilize the technique that we
(22:36):
did here.
Right, I utilize what we weredoing and it saved my hide.
I'll clean that up.
That's not exactly what he said.
Right, it saved my hide outthere in the field and you're
not joking Now as a testimony inclass.
That's a big deal, right,everybody from the class got to
hear this.
But see, this is our passion asa company, right, and when I
(22:57):
talk about our company being atraining company first and
foremost, this is what I'mtalking about.
Training budgets are the firstthing that gets cut.
I can't stand that.
As a law enforcement, right, Iworked at the training cabinet.
I took every advantage of everytraining class I could ever
take, because the rookie is theonly way I could get weekends
off, right, it's to go totraining and get the extra days
off, and so you had to do it.
And then there's this passion,and that's what we do as a
(23:18):
company.
Our mission is to protect thosewho protect.
We give millions of dollarsback every year in tuition, free
training, right.
If you come to ASP, you go toour website, asp-usacom.
There's a training tab, there'san AIC schedule tab.
That's on there.
You click, we list all ourclasses.
All you gotta do is pay adeposit to come to the class and
(23:40):
when you show up you get yourdeposit back.
The training is free.
Three days baton cuff and light.
Three days, it's free, and youget about $350 with a free gear,
right, you leave there withsome restraints and a case.
You leave with some duty lights, some secondary.
You leave there with kit,whether you pass or fail because
(24:01):
, as Mike talked about, we gotabout a 3% to 5% failure rate in
our instructor courses.
We've had at trainer conferences.
We've got to come back onceevery two years as a trainer.
Some guys show up every year,some guys show up every two
years.
We have had trainer conferenceswith candidates that every
single candidate failed.
We've never had a class whereevery candidate passed.
(24:23):
I mean, we had 28 people in myclass and 12 out of the 28
people failed when I camethrough in 2008.
That's a big deal, right, whenyou're at the very end and
they're gonna be like all right,you're gonna come into here and
you're gonna get a thumbs up orthumbs down and there's only 16
coins and your coin is what youget when you pass.
There's only 16 coins.
And you're looking around andyou're like, uh-oh, did I make
(24:46):
the cut right?
And then the first guy goes inand the first guy goes carrying
his bags down the hall andyou're like I thought I did
better than that guy.
Or then the next guy goes in.
You're like that guy was a stud.
There's no way that I passednow, right, I mean, it's this
crazy thing that happens, butit's because we owe it right.
These line officers the twosthat we call them right they're
(25:06):
the guys who gotta work extrajobs.
They gotta go to court everyday.
They're working their shift.
They don't have time to go orthey don't take the time.
How about that?
You can make the time, right.
They don't take the time to beable to go out and train some
kind of survival fighting ontheir own.
They're not working out likethey should, right, but we're
gonna give them what we can tomake sure they come back alive
(25:27):
every night.
And that's the beauty of thepassion that we have With a
tuition-free training.
There's no excuse that someonecan't say that I can't get into
an ass class.
An agency can't say, well, Ican't afford the manpower.
Can you afford not to give themanpower in million-dollar
lawsuits of use of force issues.
So that's kind of can't tell.
(25:48):
I get passionate about this.
I'm gonna come to the training.
That's where we come from andour heart is as a company.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
We have when we do our training courses, kind of
echoing what Mike and Darrellboth talking about In our manual
.
Right in the very beginning ofpage two in the little notes
section, it says I hear, Iforget, I see, I learn, I do, I
remember.
And I feel I believe we try toget them to that last part.
They have to believe in theirtraining, that it take, like
(26:18):
Mike said, he did that three-daycourse and he left confused
because it was too complicated,it didn't make sense.
I like to explain to guys whenthey come to the course,
especially in the beginning, youmight get some pushback from
some of the people taking thecourse saying oh I already know
how to do this.
This is very basic.
I don't need to learn how toswing a baton or put handcuffs
on.
I say well, you're notrealizing the difference between
(26:39):
the end user, the officer, theinstructor, the trainer is.
It doesn't matter what levelyou're at.
Your goal should be to masterthe basics.
That's the only difference.
There's no secret technique,there's no special swing.
It's practicing over and overand over again.
So if you ever need to do thattechnique, it's not going to
(27:00):
fail you and once theyunderstand that concept or that
philosophy, they really buy intoit.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I'm glad you said that about the basic techniques.
Well, first I wanna say time ismoney.
Time is definitely money whenit comes to LEOs and stuff like
that.
They need to be able to definea time.
They need to be able to get theshift.
You know, one of the reasons Istarted the foundation is I
found out that so many officersare making like 13, 14, 15, $18
(27:28):
an hour.
And if you said, hey, we'regonna send you to an ASAP
training but it's gonna cost ourbudget $2,000 with everything
they're gonna be like, well, letme go to some other, something
that's actually gonna, somethingI really need, like one day
jiu-jitsu, knife fighting,parachuting course.
Now it's really, when it comesto the training and the training
(27:49):
budgets, you have to findsomething that's gonna work.
You brought up basics.
When you're gonna become aninstructor, absolutely you need
to know the basics because youare going to be instructing this
to everybody else In themilitary.
You know, I came from aninfantry background.
I was just regular gruntinfantry.
The difference between gruntinfantry to Rangers, to Special
(28:12):
Forces, the tier one, is thebasics.
But keep doing the basics overuntil you are an absolute expert
.
Same thing with the tools thatyou have?
You have the handcuffs.
Hey, listen, we all knowhandcuffs.
Basic, same premise you'regonna restrain someone, but you
need to learn how to restrainthem With a baton.
Yeah, you have to learn how tomanipulate the baton.
(28:32):
Everything you need to do, youneed to know the basics.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So, absolutely, Bruce Lee said you know, you need to
learn the technique until youforget it.
Right.
And you've been that famousquote out there that
professionals learn it till theycan't get it wrong.
Right, you don't need to learnit until you get it right.
You need to learn it until youcan't get it wrong.
And if you're that instructor,you need to know the why behind
(28:58):
the how so you can't get itwrong.
You owe that to your officers,to anyone who is gonna be your
audience, that you are soperfecting your technique and
that you're constantly on thatroad to perfect it that they
can't get it wrong.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
So I think, what makes us unique too.
We're gonna teach you how toutilize and use the baton.
We're gonna show you how tohandcuff properly and we got a
flashlight portion right.
We're gonna show you how we doall the drills.
But, more importantly also,when we're teaching at AIC,
we're teaching instructors.
We're gonna teach you how toteach this stuff.
It's gotta make sense.
You gotta pass this knowledgeonto your students, deputies,
(29:43):
agencies, officers and we haveto make sure that we're teaching
on the proper techniques right.
If you teach somebody and youlet them get through, like I
said, one of the drills, notdoing it properly, and you're
just gonna check that box saying, hey, you're good to go, what's
gonna happen when they go backto their agency and they're
teaching their students?
They're gonna teach them thewrong technique and that's gonna
be a snowball effect.
So I'm teaching recruits at myagency.
(30:06):
I always ask the question.
I said does practice makeperfect?
Everybody says yeah, practicemakes perfect.
I said, no, it doesn't.
And they look at me like whatare you talking about?
I said perfect, practice makesperfect.
That's if you're doingsomething wrong and you're
practicing, you're doing itwrong.
You have to perfect your craft,so to speak.
Once you've got that, then youpractice it.
(30:26):
So we really dial in thoseskills and take our time with
our students and make sure thatthey are doing things properly.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Well, the cool thing about the training too.
It's very hard to find on yourwebsite and I'm being facetious
here.
If you just go to the trainingtab, you can click over, you can
see where the courses arelisted, and it's right.
There's no hidden.
I hate when I'm trying to findsomething, I'm like looking
around, but seriously, you got aton of different courses here
and it's all throughout the year.
You click on it, you sign upfor it, so that is yeah, go
(30:55):
ahead, we make this.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
And I'm gonna, man, I wish Will was on here, my
brother.
Will we make this marine proof,right?
I mean that the guys from theCorps can go on here and go, I
can do this, right.
And we make a deep nights copproof, right?
You know those deep nights guys.
I always say, to get a newpiece of equipment, give it to a
deep nights guy.
In fact, after 30 days it isn'tlost, broken or eaten.
(31:17):
Then you got a good piece ofequipment.
Right, we make this, so thedeep nights guy can get on here
and go.
Man, I'm half awake, halfasleep, it's 2.30 in the morning
, nothing's going on.
I can register for a class,right, that is so simple that
you can figure this out, becausewe understand that, man, as a
police officer, you got so muchgoing on in your life, right.
You have your home life, yougot court life, you got extra
(31:40):
job life, man, and if you're nottaking care of you, those lives
, man, they don't go and meshwell together.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I love it and that's the big thing is like it's not
just being law enforcementtraining.
Now you're moving into thecivilian market and it's one
thing I want to talk about is beyour own defender training
program.
Listen, we love law, I love lawenforcement, I love supporting
law enforcement.
I've been in law enforcement,but there is a complete market
out there, a complete section ofsociety, the protectors.
(32:11):
Everybody is their ownprotector nowadays.
Police aren't always going tobe there and we're talking
backup's not always going to bethere.
We're talking anything you call.
You have to be your ownprotector.
So let's talk about this beyour own defender.
I mean, you guys call itdefender.
I would probably say you knowBYOP, like you know, be your own
protector, but a little bias,so let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Jason, I can tell you exactly how that came up.
We were sitting in Knoxville,tennessee, and James we were
talking about being your ownactive participant in your own
rescue right and James was like,yeah, you got to be your own
defender and we had thedefenders and we're like dude,
that's the name of the programright now.
That's.
I mean, it was awesome and wecame up with that.
(32:57):
The defender is the name of theindividual pepper spray tool
that we had, so it incorporatesthe name of the device as well
as the philosophy behind whatwe're doing.
So that was the crux of thename of the thing.
It actually started a yearbefore that.
That was July of 2021.
(33:21):
It started a year before thatwhen one of our other guys, jim
Klauba, was working out with ourCEO, dr Kevin Parsons.
They were working out in hiskitchen.
Jim were ever in the house andthey were throwing knee strikes
and somehow in the conversationwas like man, you know, we
should really do something onthe pepper spray side with our
(33:43):
defenders.
I think it's a great idea, butthat's civilian and well, why
can't we do civilian right?
So that curiosity led to athree year journey, very
passionate discussions.
We are very good at passionatediscussions.
When we agree, it's awesome,but when we disagree, it's even
(34:04):
better.
Right, and there's a lot ofpassion that comes with that.
There's some times where wehave to get the bourbon and the
Irish whiskey out and hug it outor punch it out, or I'm an
andrithal, right and so we haveto do some of this, and so my
son, will Hanser, james Schrammand Jim Klauba myself.
We really worked together tomake this and it was a full
(34:27):
circle.
Some things that are in theprogram now we're definitely not
there.
In the beginning, some thingsthat were there got removed,
massaged, brought back in andall of a sudden now they're here
in a different facet that goeson there.
And so watching this man, itwas you're talking about not
wanting to see how sausage ismade, but eating it when it's
cooked.
I mean, that is definitely howthis is, and we still try to
(34:50):
adhere to ASP's philosophy oftuition-free training and I'll
turn it over to James because hewas one of the crux guys in
making the program.
But the only money that ASP as awhole takes out of the actual
course is for the kit.
(35:11):
We have a be your own defenderkit, and this kit is the same if
you're an end user or aninstructor or a trainer, and
that's it.
That's all that, and all we dois this actually, the cost of
this is all that ASP takes isthe cost of what's in this box
that we take back.
Everything else goes to anindividual, such as whatever
(35:34):
instructor, civilian instructoror trainer that is doing and
teaching.
It goes and covers their coststo be there.
So ASP as a whole is stilltrying to do what we can to give
back because we believe that itis an honorable piece.
We take so much, but we believethat we should still be giving
back to society in every chancethat we get.
So that's kind of what we'vedone and how, and I'll kind of
(35:57):
flip it over to James.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah, it's exciting.
It's been exciting for theselast few years working on the
program.
And Dow's definitely right,there's a lot of button heads
and I wish we could haverecorded all those sessions.
I wish we could have had acamera in all those sessions.
But to come full circle and tosee the program where it is now
and it is really new it's onlybeen out there for a few months
(36:24):
where people are actually goingthrough these programs, it's
exciting to be on the civilianside of things because all we've
ever done has been on the lawenforcement side of things and
getting feedback from civilianssaying I never knew that the
pepper spray that I carriedwould be used this way.
I never knew that if it's in mypurse, backpack, pocketbook,
(36:45):
that it's useless to me therebecause I'll never get to it if
I need it.
Going through the program,understanding that we're taking
the principles that we use inour law enforcement side of
training and applying that tocivilians, giving them that
opportunity to do somethingthat's not so watered down or
bogged down by techniques andkeeping it once again basic and
(37:05):
simple and making themunderstand hey, you need to be
your own defender, slashprotector, and how are you going
to do that Well, you have tofollow these principles, and if
you follow these principles youhave a better chance of doing
that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I love this aspect of it, but you're giving them the
tools as well.
There's tools out there forpeople now when it comes to your
OC sprays, your batons,flashlights.
Asp has a whole full line ofnon-lethal tools out there.
Yes, you could use batons to belethal, but overall the
(37:40):
practicality of it is they'renon-lethal tools.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Jason, I mean we know you've read the books on
killing and on combat.
I mean we know that humans arenot geared to take another
human's life.
We know that the average howabout we say that the average
human is not built, that that isthe desire that goes out there
and is done Even.
(38:04):
I mean, in the Civil War theyfound soldiers with multiple
balls into the rifles and neverpulling a trigger once In World
War I guys would aim, but never,ever fire cartridges at the
enemy.
And so we know as a human race,as a species, we don't want to
(38:25):
go out there and attack and killone another.
And now, yes, there arepredators that we must be able
to protect ourselves.
There's true evil in the world,but for those that need to
understand that that evil has tobe combated and how that we do,
that is by understanding thesephilosophies right.
(38:45):
It is by understanding how Ineed to protect myself and
having a less lethal opportunityto do that.
I mean that is huge and thatactually fits into some of how
people are built and designedand can take that and really
stomach that.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
You know it's funny if you go backwards in time.
15, 20 years ago, if someonewas on the subway and they were
getting attacked, if someone wason the street and they were
getting harassed, someone wouldprobably step in and help them.
Nowadays, all we ever get issomeone takes out their cell
phone and starts filming it andwe really try to drive this home
.
People will definitelyunderstand that that hey, I'm on
(39:26):
my own.
Even if there may be a fewpeople around there, I can't
count on them to come in andhelp me.
So I have to do something tolearn how to protect myself, to
give me the tools or theopportunity to avoid danger when
possible, so I don't even putmyself in those situations ahead
of time.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
And that's the beauty of how this course is kind of
designed.
The classroom portion talksabout that situational awareness
, right, that, paying attention,getting away as Pat Magnum are
talking about the 45 degreesyndrome, looking down at your
phone and having your head downand not paying attention to
what's going on around you.
(40:06):
You know, reacting to yourenvironment that's something
that everyone should be doingand paying attention to what's
going on.
And then, once you're reactingto your environment, like going
I probably shouldn't walk outthere to my car in an empty
parking lot with, you know, a1978 beater car sitting next to
it with the engine running and Ican't see anybody, right,
(40:26):
that's probably what we wouldcall a clue.
We shouldn't do that.
But today people just like dograb their phone and walk on the
right and put themselves in abad situation.
So you know, swimming with abuddy, making sure there's a
battle buddy system out there.
You know, making sure that I'mtelling someone hey, I'm going
to go from point A to point Band it's probably going to be
(40:47):
about 15 minutes for me to getthere.
Please check in with me, I'llcheck in with you.
Small little things like that,right, things that people are
like, well, that makes a lot ofsense.
Why didn't I think of thatExactly?
Why didn't you think of that?
Right, these are not hugepieces but combined we can try
to protect, take care of, defendsomebody out there in a street,
(41:08):
and then you get into the classor the gym quote unquote gym
portion, right, the drillingportion, and that gets you
actually into the all.
Right now I'm into asituational fidelity, right when
I have someone that I'm behindthe ball, I didn't pay attention
and now I have to do something.
Now I have to be able to createdistance.
Now I have to protect myself.
(41:29):
I have to defend my positionand it's awesome to see and even
you know, I have daughters.
To teach them what we're doingand watch them run with that and
learn is great.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I Really want to get into the next aspect and
probably our last.
The talking piece today was thenew red guns man, you know, the
red guns back in the day werelike you know, hey, you know
it's a red gun, it kind ofsimulates that what a Glock is
or whatever.
But you guys were really niceto donate to my foundation and
donate Six red guns with theirremoval magazines, like with
(42:07):
actual mag releases andeverything.
So what I do is I found a smalldepartment in South Carolina
and Really hurting for trainingequipment, and they had two
officers that were going to begoing to training this week and
they needed some red guns.
So I reached out to ask andasked was like hey, you know
what, we're gonna hook you up.
Here's the deal, we're gonnahelp you out.
You know, obviously you guys arein business, but you were
(42:28):
helping out the nonprofit, butAt no cost.
You know, at no cost you.
You provided these, thistraining equipment, but it
wasn't just red guns, it's thesered guns.
If everybody goes to theirwebsite and checks out the new,
was it the shadow systems, as Iwould have called?
The shadow system, too, comeswith two mags.
And for me, you know, seeing asI'm quasi retired now.
(42:50):
I like it because you know, ifI bought one for myself I could
also train in magazine exchangesand and train and in magazine
manipulation.
So there's a lot more to a redgun now than just a standard
block of plastic.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
So, man, I even have another phase that I want to get
into.
This is what I look at hisphase to.
I'm.
I have several differentfive-year, ten-year training
things that I would like to dothat we really can't talk about
because, you know, I haven'teven got permission from the
boss yet.
I'm really good at gettingslapped down About this.
(43:28):
I come up with some crazy ideasand then we got to let the real
guys get in on here and messwith it.
But it was our pleasure, firstof all, to be able to support
you and your team and make thishappen.
Secondly, let's take a terribletragedy that just got brought
back up in the news fromWashington DC at the training
where it was an ask batoninstructor training or an end
(43:53):
user training, from an ask batoninstructor who did not adhere
to safety rules and had a livefirearm and and and because of
that, and then still didn'tadhere to firearm safety rules.
And when it's a trainingfirearm or a live firearm, that
the firearm safety rules stillapply no matter what and and did
(44:15):
not adhere to those and a lifewas lost because of those
actions.
That that particular incidentis the reason that our red guns
are here.
It's the reason we do ourweapons systems and training
platforms like we do.
There have been several storiesof like rookies taking home
their firearms and watching TVand practicing dry fires and
(44:38):
magazine changes.
And when is the most dangeroustime in training that you could
have a Negligent or incidentalor whatever?
The new word is that you needto call it right.
You're popping off around whenis the most dangerous time for
that to occur, and that's at thevery end of your training cycle
.
And why does that take place?
Well, because you're like, ohhey, well, wait a minute, let me
(45:00):
do one more thing.
And you forgot that.
You loaded it back up with liveammunition and you fire off
around and shoot it through theTV, through the wall, at a loved
one or whatever.
Takes place right and bad stuffhappens.
So we want to say, hey, we're,there's training pieces out
there and fidelity of training,right, adhering to the realistic
training that we can do, whichis how.
(45:21):
The second evolution of what wecall our enhanced training
weapons, the Magazines that areremovable.
We have shadow systemsmagazines that are removable.
If you're not familiar shadowsystems firearms, they are
phenomenal.
Go get one, shoot one.
They are pretty awesome piecesof weapons and they fit the
(45:42):
Glock style holsters that areout there as many agencies that
are starting to switch over aswell to this, and so we have
that system.
We have your M 17, m 18, likeyour sick 320s that are out
there as well.
For that a Beretta 92 is theold M 9s from the military, and
then we have in for platforms.
(46:02):
You can do long guns and trainon magazine releases for long
guns as well.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Because I was just looking at that.
Right now I'm looking at yourwebsite.
Yeah, well, like no, it's notthe shadow systems, you make
them for the different systems.
So yeah, you even have the HK416 on there and everything.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
I'm like you another implant.
We actually had a specialdesign that we did for the
French Army for the HK 416s, andwe delivered 8009000 long guns
for them, 20000 fire or handguns for them.
That are magazine, reallyenhanced guns.
We're very lucky and you'd belike well, why are they red?
(46:38):
Everything else is blue.
Right in the army it's blue orit's this.
But well, the reason we do redis because If I'm down range and
I'm looking back at my trainingline and I see red pointed at
me, we're golden, but I may notbe able to distinguish a darker
color from the real firearm.
And if you're a firearmsinstructor and you're practicing
(47:00):
this and you're down range andyou look back and there's a
pucker factor that goes on atthat point in time, because
these are recruit a heck, theseare sometimes Tenured officers
who are doing stupid things withfirearms.
You know, my daughter's knowthat, no matter what color it is
, you ask is that a real firearm?
And then you adhere to thefirearm safety rules.
(47:20):
Right Finger off the triggerpoint is safe direction.
We work on clearing stuff inthe house.
We're, we're a combativeshousehold, right, people like
you are a nut.
No, I'm raising little warriorsas a, as a family that can take
care of themselves when I'm notaround.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Well, gentlemen, I do appreciate this conversation
today.
Everybody, if you really dowant to learn how to become a If
you're an LAO, I should say,are in that community.
If you want to become an assinstructor, really check out
their website, ask dash USA comm, and then they also have all
your line of gear on there.
I do want to say I do have theat the pen light.
It's like a pen light.
(47:58):
You don't always have theopportunity to carry a big old
flashlight with you orflashlight anywhere in our days.
Always have some sort ofillumination to align you.
Seriously, you never know whenyou're gonna be in the dark.
But feel free to go around ifyou guys have anything else for
us.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Oh, I was gonna say two is one, one is none.
Right in a daytime having aflashlight.
I don't think any one of usthree leave the house without
having some sort of lightingsystem, because even in the
daylight, where our lights andhow they're designed, man, you
can grab someone's attention byshining in their eyes, you know
you can gain yourself space, youcan gain yourself an element to
leave right the best fights,the one that you're not present
(48:38):
for.
And we're lucky I'm lucky as acompany, as a person working for
a company, to have this companythat I would get to work for,
work with these gents here.
I get to learn so much fromthem.
They're constantly kicking mybutt and challenging me and
making me learn and strive more.
And I mean, if I got to say onething for these guys that are
out there is make sure thatyou're present when you're home,
(48:59):
be present in your job, bepresent for your workouts, be
present when you're doingsomething right, don't Just make
, be intentional in yourpresence and especially, be
present at home.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
Yeah, jason, just wanted to say thanks for having
us on as true honor and justpractice what you preach and
keep training hard.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, thank you very much.
It was a lot of fun.
It was great to be on here totalk about all these talk topics
.
I really appreciate it.
Hey, really cool show today with the guys from
Armament Systems and Procedures,asp.
I have Darrell Harman, jamesTram and Mike Dice, all coming
from major, large scale agenciesnow working with ASP, in just
incredible conversation todayabout their products, about the
(00:33):
training systems they have outthere, not only for law
enforcement but the ones they'regoing to have for the civilian
market.
So check out this awesomeconversation with ASP.
Hey, welcome to the ProtectorsPodcast.
I'm really excited about thispodcast because one, now that we
have the Protectors Foundationfull swing ahead and we are
helping out the protectors onthe front lines, this
(00:54):
organization, this company,really, really stepped up and
has been supporting thefoundation, providing training
equipment.
Excited to talk about it, butI'm also excited to talk about
the modernization of thiscompany.
Since 20 plus years ago, when Iwent into federal law
enforcement, to now, asp hasgone so far from when I
(01:15):
originally first started usingASP.
Whether it's the ASP, whetherit's handguns, whether it's
anything, any training equipment, any tactical equipment you
need.
It has changed so much.
Welcome to the show, guys.
Feel free to just chime in andsay who you are in just a quick
two seconds.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Jason, I'm Darrell Harmon, and thank you, man.
It's a privilege to be here onthis podcast with you and with
my other two cohorts that wehave.
I'm the VP of sales with ASP.
We've been around since 1976 asa company itself, and our
training has went from anexpandable baton out to batons
(02:03):
that have a push button typeclosure to them, to concealable
batons for the executiveprotection officer, to having
solid training weapons, tohaving training weapons you can
manipulate magazines out of, tohaving multiple different styles
of restraints, both hard andsoft, disposable restraints, and
(02:25):
then tactical flashlights.
We are just excited about wherewe've come from and what we
have in store in the future.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Hey, jason, thanks for having me on.
My name is James Shram, talkingabout the evolution of training
.
I became an ASP trainer nearly20 years ago and I like what
you're saying.
When you first started usingASP Back then, training
consisted only of the expandablebaton for our trainer
certification.
It has since changeddrastically, since 2004 to now,
(02:59):
where we incorporate flashlightsand handcuffs.
Soon we're going to be talkingabout the civilian market or
pepper spray or defender.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Jason.
Yes, thanks for having us onthe show, very humbled.
My name is Mike Dice.
Again, I was hired on in 2015as a trainer.
I can tell you one thing aboutour company the camaraderie that
we have is unlike anything I'veever experienced.
We have some of the best people, some of the best trainers
(03:37):
worldwide.
Sometimes we get together oncea year, sometimes we get
together every couple of years,and I'll tell you what it's
unlike anything I've ever been apart of.
So thanks for having us andlooking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, the training piece is huge.
We're going to really get intothat.
We're really going to hit thathome in a little while.
But there's one thing thatalways bothered me.
I love ASP.
I used to carry it when I wasin a boarder patrol.
We had to have something eitherpepper spray or an ASP.
We had to have the expandablebaton and I know one thing is
like when you extend it andhaving to get it back into place
(04:12):
has been the biggest gripe ever.
And then when I talked to youall back in SHOT Show, it was
like no, we got the new products.
Not only do we have the pushbutton products, which is,
believe me, it's like a gamechanger, because can you imagine
you're in someone's like youknow, double wide, you're in
someone's apartment, you're insomeone's house and you go.
Okay, it's for everybody outthere new to law enforcement
(04:32):
equipment when you extend abaton, you have to get the baton
back into place, get it backinto battery.
In order to do that, a lot oftimes you would have to, like,
bang it on a hard surface andthat means you're going to bang
it on a floor.
Now, I don't know how manypeople have done it.
I wish there was a study butyou bang a baton on the floor
and it leaves like a littleindentation or something like
(04:53):
that, a little concrete.
But now you get the push button.
So nowadays we're in the newcentury where you just push that
button, boom, it's back.
And also, the other thing withthe new expandable batons is the
executive protection ones.
I mean, these fit in your suitpocket or anything.
So let's talk about thedevelopment of this and
obviously you guys are takingthe input from the field and
(05:15):
employing it in the marketingnot just the marketing, but in
the production of it.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, jason, what I'll do is I'll jump on how we
got there and then I'll pass itover to my guys here who are
trainers and let them talk aboutthe use scene, the usages of it
and what we're going to do andwhat they specialize in
especially.
And so we pride ourselves as acompany, taking information back
(05:42):
from the field and reallyputting it into research and
development and making somethingas a worthwhile product.
I kind of get on my boss's good, bad nerve side.
Everyone's walks.
I'm like, hey, sir, we arefirst and foremost a training
company.
And he looks at me and he'slike, no, we're a manufacturer.
And I'm like, no, we justhappen to manufacture the best
(06:03):
products in the world.
We are first and foremost atraining company.
And in that training company wedo really take stuff back from
the field.
And what we heard was hey,banging friction lock batons on
the ground is just rough.
You know, that's dinosaur,that's seriously old head, right
.
So a friction lock is like anold wheel gun.
It's always going to work,right.
If you have an revolver, it'sreally simple bullet trigger,
(06:26):
hammer slams, bullet goes out,right, it's great.
Well, it's like that with thefriction baton.
So we listen to the field andthere are some people like man,
when you're smacking that batonon the ground, it's violent,
looking, right, you might havejust had to use it on someone to
gain compliance, and now you'reusing this violent action to
close it.
(06:47):
And hey, and you know, some ofthe younger guys are a little
softer and you know, kindler,gentler, some of us are getting
up a little older and our kneesdon't bend as easy Sounds like
rice paper when we're trying tobend down.
And so we needed to find a wayto be able to close the baton
efficiently and effectively inits action.
(07:10):
So that's why we came up withwhat we came up with and then
saying, hey, there are more thanjust the street beat guys who
are out there who need this, andthere's a lot of guys in
executive protection, there's alot of guys doing plainclothes
security.
Maybe we should get somethingfor them.
Even the detective, theplainclothes guy who goes out
there I know it's hard tobelieve, but even they talk to
(07:32):
bad guys, right, I mean, theydeal with people at their houses
who maybe murdered suspects,and you need something between
your fists and bang.
And so that's what we did withour, why we did what we did with
our expandable batons.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
All right.
So when we're out thereteaching, I mean our job's
pretty easy, jason, and I alwaystell all the students I said,
listen, you can design theperfect baton for your liking If
you don't have a specific SOPthat dictates what you have to
carry in your agency.
We have a lot of options andone of them being the Talon
Baton.
Right and like Adarel alludedto, nobody's getting any younger
(08:12):
and you could.
You know, I've done classeswhere we lose half the class on
just the closing because you gotto bend down.
People are throwing their backsout, people throwing their
knees out.
So now I got a Talon Baton, Ican open it with my hand and I
can close it in my hand.
I mean it's so simple.
So I mean our job is very easy.
So when I do that demonstrationin a class, people are like,
wow, what can I get my hands on?
(08:33):
Let me see it.
So we're not only gonna teachor show a PowerPoint and kind of
do the specs, and then you know, let you know how it all
operates, and then we're gonnatransition and actually let you
use it and actually go throughdrills and actually let you get
used to it, and by the end ofthese classes.
I mean, they're coming to itand they're coming to us and
letting us like wow, I got toget my hands on one of these
things, so our job is prettyeasy.
(08:54):
It's the cat's meow, so tospeak.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
With that said, it's funny, our training, our three
day training courses forinstructors there's still a lot
of people that use quote,unquote the antiquated baton,
the Fritzelach baton.
So we have to still train themin how to use it and teach it to
the guys that are stillcarrying it.
Some agencies don't have thebudget to go and get the newer
(09:21):
baton, the town baton.
What's something that someofficers don't realize is the
scabbard they carry for theirFritzelach allows them to put
the baton away.
If they don't have theopportunity to close it, they
can put the baton away open.
I don't know how many times Ishow that to someone in a class
and they say to me I never knewthis scabbard was designed so
(09:41):
you can put your baton away inthe open mode.
Just to echo what Dara wassaying about federal agencies or
playing close guys, I've hadthe opportunity to train some
federal agencies and these guyswill admit to a man that they
would not carry an expandablebaton because it was too big, it
was too bulky, it was too heavy.
Coming out with the age ofbatons, having a low profile put
(10:05):
it in your suit, put it in yourpocket made it so much easier
for them to have that forceoption with them.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
When you talk about the equipment prices and
everything, you guys you have areally good price point between
the top of your line equipmentand the bottom you're not gonna
say bottom line, but the lowerprice modules.
This also goes into.
The next thing I really wannatalk about is handcuffs.
The same handcuff philosophyhas been around forever.
The same type of lockingmechanisms, the same double lock
(10:33):
and everything, and anybodyknows.
It's very easy when you're atransport A to B and someone is
very compliant hey, you knowwhat?
You could put those really nicesteel handcuffs on me and
double lock them with yourhandcuff key.
But you know your one system.
I was looking at the handcuffs.
What were they?
The ultra plus handcuffs whereyou could just push button to
(10:54):
double lock.
So for the civilian out thereand the reason I'm saying for
the civilian out there isbecause we're gonna really
hammer down the civilian marketfor ASP here in a few minutes
but when you're using handcuffs,when you don't latch it them
down or you don't double securethem with a double locking
system, it has the opportunityto keep cinching the subject
(11:16):
that's wearing them and it couldcause injury Really and it can
cause really bad injuries.
So what happens is.
Asp came up with a doublelocking mechanism where you just
pretty much push it down andit's good to go.
When you're going to purchaseitems like this, you have to
look at it kind of like hey, youknow what it might be at my
price point, but is it gonna be?
Are you gonna be in this careerfor a very long time?
(11:38):
And cost-benefit analysis iskind of up there.
So I do wanna talk about themodernization of the ASP
handcuffs and a lot of peopledon't even realize that ASP
makes me handcuffs.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Jason, it's interesting you say that portion
.
We'll be doing demonstrations,right, and so we have a way that
we do things at ASP train ortrain and sell or sell.
And so our sales directors goout and they'll do trade shows,
but they may tap our trainers onthe shoulder, because trainers
train and be like hey, Mike, canyou come down here and do this
(12:12):
show with me, Like Mike did theAmerican Corrections Association
a couple of weeks back inPhiladelphia.
Or, James, hey, I need you tocome out here and meet with this
major agency in the Northeastand help me demonstrate what
goes on.
My guys know the ins and outsof the cuffs.
They can walk it through andtell you all about the cuff, but
(12:34):
having an operator come throughand tell you why that's great,
is amazing, and that's one ofthe things that we really try to
get into.
The same cuff, the Swing ThroughBow, what we look at as a
traditional cuff that's beenaround since 1912.
There were no modifications ofthat original cuff until 1985
(12:57):
when the Hins Cuff was born.
Neither one of those were ourinventions.
Right, it's not the modern cuffnor the Hins Cuff was our
invention.
But in the early 2000s, rightaround the time, James came on
as a trainer.
We began our venture intohandcuffs and we've had
(13:17):
handcuffs for almost 20 yearsnow and people like ask mixed
cuffs.
Yes, we do, we make the bestones in the world.
We took things like having ageometrical shape, a conical
shape of the geometry of thecuff, so that the cuff itself
wraps the wrist as opposed tocutting into the wrist.
(13:38):
Your average handcuffing lawsuitis like $35,000.
That's an average handcufflawsuit per year.
So you can choose to pay nowand buy a little bit of a cuff
or you can choose to pay maybelater in a lawsuit.
It's kind of how we look atthis and we started that out and
you had to have a key to unlockand you have to have a key to
double lock and then we came outwith this keyless double lock,
(14:00):
the plus cuff that you'retalking about, which is
phenomenal I can take the cuffsout, I can put the cuffs on you
and then, without having toremove my key, use my thumb into
a slot and double lock the cuff.
And that has kind of been a gamechanger for us how we
manipulate our cuffs, when itcomes to radius edges, when it
(14:21):
comes to deep set, cutting lockteeth, all the cool innovations,
no one else out there isinnovating cuffs, right?
Nobody is out there looking tosay how can we modernize cuffs
except ASP and we're luckyenough to be able to look in the
field, have phenomenal guyscome to us and tell us what they
want key holes on both sides,and why is that important?
(14:45):
We still hear the people go ina very archaic thought if the
key holes aren't up, you can'tcuff anybody.
That's wrong, it's against therules.
We hear people say well, yougotta fight people in the cuffs,
and none of those are old myths, right.
Those are things that if you dothe right training, you don't
have to fight people into thehandcuffs.
You either fight or you cuff.
(15:05):
We don't do both right, and sothat's where we as a training
cadre have really come acrossand really developed and how
those trainings actually workwith the new cuffing systems.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
So James and I now are on the other side of the
spectrum when we go out andactually teach hand cuffing
right.
And how do you make handcuffing interesting?
And I always find that to be achallenge because it's not your
high speed running a gun andit's not your strikes, your
takedowns, you're not using thatbaton and hitting.
So we have to kind of set thattone.
(15:43):
But with our cuffs it's easyfor us because we have a couple
of tricks.
We have a training hand cuffthat we can apply to live wrists
.
We do not have to utilize a keyand we can just take them right
off.
So that does speed up somedrills.
Because what happens is youteach a traditional hand cuffing
course, people start goingthrough the motions right.
(16:05):
They kind of start gettinglaxatives.
You're only as fast as your youknow slowest person.
So what happens is you'resomeone's fumbling around with
the key.
Then you kind of lose themomentum of the class and people
start smoking and joking andthen before long it's like no
one's taking hand cuffingserious.
When hand cuffing is a big deal, that will set the tone of any
arrest that you're going intothe danger zone, you're putting
(16:25):
hand, you're taking handcuffsand putting them on somebody.
People don't like to be touched.
So again we have those littletricks where with those training
cuffs that speeds it up.
Now we use the training batonsso we can use those to simulate
live wrists and we can use thehandcuffs to put them on the
training batons.
You can slide them right offNow.
That speeds up and that keepsall your students engaged.
(16:46):
So the our training programkind of speaks for itself and
people really get engaged andreally enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
I think also with our handcuff program and when we
run our courses, we make itprinciple based, not so much
technique based.
So we tell them it doesn'tmatter what handcuff you're
using.
It could be your trifoldflexible, one time use only cuff
, or it can go all the way up toyour rigid cuff.
All the principles will remainthe same.
And they really like thatphilosophy saying I don't have
(17:20):
to worry about what cuff I pullout.
I've already learned how toapply them.
And it doesn't matter if it'schained or hinged, and it
doesn't matter if the person isstanding kneeling or prone on
the ground.
The principles don't change.
And I think they really likeadopting that philosophy when
they take it back to theirtraining units and their
agencies.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Let's talk about training.
That's a that's a huge thingfor law enforcement and, like I,
a man I think I've said thisabout 50 times on my my podcast
you know, coming from the feds,if I want, if you want to go to
training, it's like you knowwhat put in the form.
You know you got the budget.
Someone has a budget.
If we don't have the budget,we'll get someone other agency
to sponsor you or whatever.
The reality of policing and 99%of people that under I've known
(18:02):
a police officer or deputy oranything know that there's no
budget out there.
There's no budget for training.
It's tough to get training.
It's tough to get solidtraining and training this
dynamic and that's going to work.
It's going to work towards youreveryday survivability.
So let's talk about what ASP isdoing in the training realm and
providing training support tothe law enforcement agencies out
(18:24):
there.
I didn't realize that ASP has aton of free training.
I didn't know that, thought Iwas like hey, you know what, you
want to buy some equipment,we'll train you on it.
I didn't know there was likethe whole different aspects hey,
you want to sell something,you're going to sell it over
here, but you have a wholetraining kind of right, what
goes up to including gettingpeople to become ASP certified
instructors.
So let's talk about that andfeel free, you guys don't have
(18:46):
to go on a water, you can justjump in.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
You know it's funny.
You were imagine I was thinkingabout that with training and
budgets back what I was still onthe job as a police officer.
You're right.
Asking for training was likethe worst thing in the world and
you have to find the person whocontrols the money to get the
training and if they don't likewhat you're asking for, you'll
never get the training.
(19:11):
A lot of times the decisionmaker has no idea of the
training that you're looking foror asking for.
They might have an idea whatthey want, but it doesn't
pertain to what you're trying toaccomplish or your goal of what
you're trying to train yourofficers on.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
So, jason, you kind of open up a loaded question,
right.
I mean, I think you couldprobably spend the entire
podcast just on this topic alone, and you kind of already
alluded to it, right.
I mean limited resources acrossthe country with.
You know, far as funding goes,equipment goes, and so we do
provide free training.
We give a lot of free equipmentaway.
(19:47):
Another issue with training andI'm going to be a little biased
with ASP, because again I feellike we are the best.
We have some of the besttrainers in the world.
We have completely mastered ourtradecraft.
We take the time to work withour students.
I mean, how many times have youtaken a course and the
(20:09):
instructors there, just to youknow, get paid and get that
check in the box right and moveon.
So that's not what we do.
You're not guaranteed to passour course, you have to earn it,
and what I mean by that is iswe're willing to work with you,
but you're not just going to gothrough that class and make
mistakes and move on.
I can tell you, early on in mycareer I took a close quarters
(20:32):
knife defense course and it wasso complicated the techniques
that the instructor was teachingus.
There was no instructor studentratio.
So one instructor is trying toteach multiple students and what
happened was he's trying toteach a technique to us and he'd
have to use one of the studentsas the bad guy and he's trying
(20:54):
to tell us how to attack himright, and we'd have to go up
there like, oh, I need you to dothis.
And it reminded me I was.
If you ever watched thatSaturday Night Live Jim Carrey
skit, you know Jim Carrey's the.
You know he's trying to teachself defense and he's trying to
teach the knife defense and he'syou're attacking me wrong, and
that's all I can envision.
Like it had to be a perfectscenario.
So it was like a three daycourse and it was a long drive
(21:18):
for me and I can tell you rightnow I got nothing out of that
course.
It was too, it was too complex,it wasn't practical to real
life, it was nothing I could useand it was really wasting my
time.
So we really break down oursystem by the numbers.
We go slow, make sure everybodyunderstands it.
And it's practical, it's reallife.
(21:39):
You can utilize our techniquesin a real life situation and
that's what sets us apart.
I mean, we have the mostpassionate instructors around.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
You know, mike, you talk about using them in real
life situations.
I remember training a guy.
We were right outside of SanAntonio shirts, texas, and we
did a class and we tell peopleyou could use what we're
teaching you tonight.
Right, because they some ofthese guys go and work shifts.
Some of these guys are workingand training during the day,
right, and they're working atnight.
And I had a guy come back in onday three.
(22:13):
He goes you can go, believethis, sir, I'm like what
happened and he goes.
You talked about here for twodays at 2.30 in the morning and
you and the bad guy behindapartment complex and you're
going to hear me in your headand he goes that my radio
wouldn't transmit.
I was in a bad low spot.
I couldn't get my radio out.
It was me and the bad guy and Iutilize the technique that we
(22:36):
did here.
Right, I utilize what we weredoing and it saved my hide.
I'll clean that up.
That's not exactly what he said.
Right, it saved my hide outthere in the field and you're
not joking Now as a testimony inclass.
That's a big deal, right,everybody from the class got to
hear this.
But see, this is our passion asa company, right, and when I
(22:57):
talk about our company being atraining company first and
foremost, this is what I'mtalking about.
Training budgets are the firstthing that gets cut.
I can't stand that.
As a law enforcement, right, Iworked at the training cabinet.
I took every advantage of everytraining class I could ever
take, because the rookie is theonly way I could get weekends
off, right, it's to go totraining and get the extra days
off, and so you had to do it.
And then there's this passion,and that's what we do as a
(23:18):
company.
Our mission is to protect thosewho protect.
We give millions of dollarsback every year in tuition, free
training, right.
If you come to ASP, you go toour website, asp-usacom.
There's a training tab, there'san AIC schedule tab.
That's on there.
You click, we list all ourclasses.
All you gotta do is pay adeposit to come to the class and
(23:40):
when you show up you get yourdeposit back.
The training is free.
Three days baton cuff and light.
Three days, it's free, and youget about $350 with a free gear,
right, you leave there withsome restraints and a case.
You leave with some duty lights, some secondary.
You leave there with kit,whether you pass or fail because
(24:01):
, as Mike talked about, we gotabout a 3% to 5% failure rate in
our instructor courses.
We've had at trainer conferences.
We've got to come back onceevery two years as a trainer.
Some guys show up every year,some guys show up every two
years.
We have had trainer conferenceswith candidates that every
single candidate failed.
We've never had a class whereevery candidate passed.
(24:23):
I mean, we had 28 people in myclass and 12 out of the 28
people failed when I camethrough in 2008.
That's a big deal, right, whenyou're at the very end and
they're gonna be like all right,you're gonna come into here and
you're gonna get a thumbs up orthumbs down and there's only 16
coins and your coin is what youget when you pass.
There's only 16 coins.
And you're looking around andyou're like, uh-oh, did I make
(24:46):
the cut right?
And then the first guy goes inand the first guy goes carrying
his bags down the hall andyou're like I thought I did
better than that guy.
Or then the next guy goes in.
You're like that guy was a stud.
There's no way that I passednow, right, I mean, it's this
crazy thing that happens, butit's because we owe it right.
These line officers the twosthat we call them right they're
(25:06):
the guys who gotta work extrajobs.
They gotta go to court everyday.
They're working their shift.
They don't have time to go orthey don't take the time.
How about that?
You can make the time, right.
They don't take the time to beable to go out and train some
kind of survival fighting ontheir own.
They're not working out likethey should, right, but we're
gonna give them what we can tomake sure they come back alive
(25:27):
every night.
And that's the beauty of thepassion that we have With a
tuition-free training.
There's no excuse that someonecan't say that I can't get into
an ass class.
An agency can't say, well, Ican't afford the manpower.
Can you afford not to give themanpower in million-dollar
lawsuits of use of force issues.
So that's kind of can't tell.
(25:48):
I get passionate about this.
I'm gonna come to the training.
That's where we come from andour heart is as a company.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
We have when we do our training courses, kind of
echoing what Mike and Darrellboth talking about In our manual
.
Right in the very beginning ofpage two in the little notes
section, it says I hear, Iforget, I see, I learn, I do, I
remember.
And I feel I believe we try toget them to that last part.
They have to believe in theirtraining, that it take, like
(26:18):
Mike said, he did that three-daycourse and he left confused
because it was too complicated,it didn't make sense.
I like to explain to guys whenthey come to the course,
especially in the beginning, youmight get some pushback from
some of the people taking thecourse saying oh I already know
how to do this.
This is very basic.
I don't need to learn how toswing a baton or put handcuffs
on.
I say well, you're notrealizing the difference between
(26:39):
the end user, the officer, theinstructor, the trainer is.
It doesn't matter what levelyou're at.
Your goal should be to masterthe basics.
That's the only difference.
There's no secret technique,there's no special swing.
It's practicing over and overand over again.
So if you ever need to do thattechnique, it's not going to
(27:00):
fail you and once theyunderstand that concept or that
philosophy, they really buy intoit.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I'm glad you said that about the basic techniques.
Well, first I wanna say time ismoney.
Time is definitely money whenit comes to LEOs and stuff like
that.
They need to be able to definea time.
They need to be able to get theshift.
You know, one of the reasons Istarted the foundation is I
found out that so many officersare making like 13, 14, 15, $18
(27:28):
an hour.
And if you said, hey, we'regonna send you to an ASAP
training but it's gonna cost ourbudget $2,000 with everything
they're gonna be like, well, letme go to some other, something
that's actually gonna, somethingI really need, like one day
jiu-jitsu, knife fighting,parachuting course.
Now it's really, when it comesto the training and the training
(27:49):
budgets, you have to findsomething that's gonna work.
You brought up basics.
When you're gonna become aninstructor, absolutely you need
to know the basics because youare going to be instructing this
to everybody else In themilitary.
You know, I came from aninfantry background.
I was just regular gruntinfantry.
The difference between gruntinfantry to Rangers, to Special
(28:12):
Forces, the tier one, is thebasics.
But keep doing the basics overuntil you are an absolute expert
.
Same thing with the tools thatyou have?
You have the handcuffs.
Hey, listen, we all knowhandcuffs.
Basic, same premise you'regonna restrain someone, but you
need to learn how to restrainthem With a baton.
Yeah, you have to learn how tomanipulate the baton.
(28:32):
Everything you need to do, youneed to know the basics.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So, absolutely, Bruce Lee said you know, you need to
learn the technique until youforget it.
Right.
And you've been that famousquote out there that
professionals learn it till theycan't get it wrong.
Right, you don't need to learnit until you get it right.
You need to learn it until youcan't get it wrong.
And if you're that instructor,you need to know the why behind
(28:58):
the how so you can't get itwrong.
You owe that to your officers,to anyone who is gonna be your
audience, that you are soperfecting your technique and
that you're constantly on thatroad to perfect it that they
can't get it wrong.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
So I think, what makes us unique too.
We're gonna teach you how toutilize and use the baton.
We're gonna show you how tohandcuff properly and we got a
flashlight portion right.
We're gonna show you how we doall the drills.
But, more importantly also,when we're teaching at AIC,
we're teaching instructors.
We're gonna teach you how toteach this stuff.
It's gotta make sense.
You gotta pass this knowledgeonto your students, deputies,
(29:43):
agencies, officers and we haveto make sure that we're teaching
on the proper techniques right.
If you teach somebody and youlet them get through, like I
said, one of the drills, notdoing it properly, and you're
just gonna check that box saying, hey, you're good to go, what's
gonna happen when they go backto their agency and they're
teaching their students?
They're gonna teach them thewrong technique and that's gonna
be a snowball effect.
So I'm teaching recruits at myagency.
(30:06):
I always ask the question.
I said does practice makeperfect?
Everybody says yeah, practicemakes perfect.
I said, no, it doesn't.
And they look at me like whatare you talking about?
I said perfect, practice makesperfect.
That's if you're doingsomething wrong and you're
practicing, you're doing itwrong.
You have to perfect your craft,so to speak.
Once you've got that, then youpractice it.
(30:26):
So we really dial in thoseskills and take our time with
our students and make sure thatthey are doing things properly.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Well, the cool thing about the training too.
It's very hard to find on yourwebsite and I'm being facetious
here.
If you just go to the trainingtab, you can click over, you can
see where the courses arelisted, and it's right.
There's no hidden.
I hate when I'm trying to findsomething, I'm like looking
around, but seriously, you got aton of different courses here
and it's all throughout the year.
You click on it, you sign upfor it, so that is yeah, go
(30:55):
ahead, we make this.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
And I'm gonna, man, I wish Will was on here, my
brother.
Will we make this marine proof,right?
I mean that the guys from theCorps can go on here and go, I
can do this, right.
And we make a deep nights copproof, right?
You know those deep nights guys.
I always say, to get a newpiece of equipment, give it to a
deep nights guy.
In fact, after 30 days it isn'tlost, broken or eaten.
(31:17):
Then you got a good piece ofequipment.
Right, we make this, so thedeep nights guy can get on here
and go.
Man, I'm half awake, halfasleep, it's 2.30 in the morning
, nothing's going on.
I can register for a class,right, that is so simple that
you can figure this out, becausewe understand that, man, as a
police officer, you got so muchgoing on in your life, right.
You have your home life, yougot court life, you got extra
(31:40):
job life, man, and if you're nottaking care of you, those lives
, man, they don't go and meshwell together.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I love it and that's the big thing is like it's not
just being law enforcementtraining.
Now you're moving into thecivilian market and it's one
thing I want to talk about is beyour own defender training
program.
Listen, we love law, I love lawenforcement, I love supporting
law enforcement.
I've been in law enforcement,but there is a complete market
out there, a complete section ofsociety, the protectors.
(32:11):
Everybody is their ownprotector nowadays.
Police aren't always going tobe there and we're talking
backup's not always going to bethere.
We're talking anything you call.
You have to be your ownprotector.
So let's talk about this beyour own defender.
I mean, you guys call itdefender.
I would probably say you knowBYOP, like you know, be your own
protector, but a little bias,so let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Jason, I can tell you exactly how that came up.
We were sitting in Knoxville,tennessee, and James we were
talking about being your ownactive participant in your own
rescue right and James was like,yeah, you got to be your own
defender and we had thedefenders and we're like dude,
that's the name of the programright now.
That's.
I mean, it was awesome and wecame up with that.
(32:57):
The defender is the name of theindividual pepper spray tool
that we had, so it incorporatesthe name of the device as well
as the philosophy behind whatwe're doing.
So that was the crux of thename of the thing.
It actually started a yearbefore that.
That was July of 2021.
(33:21):
It started a year before thatwhen one of our other guys, jim
Klauba, was working out with ourCEO, dr Kevin Parsons.
They were working out in hiskitchen.
Jim were ever in the house andthey were throwing knee strikes
and somehow in the conversationwas like man, you know, we
should really do something onthe pepper spray side with our
(33:43):
defenders.
I think it's a great idea, butthat's civilian and well, why
can't we do civilian right?
So that curiosity led to athree year journey, very
passionate discussions.
We are very good at passionatediscussions.
When we agree, it's awesome,but when we disagree, it's even
(34:04):
better.
Right, and there's a lot ofpassion that comes with that.
There's some times where wehave to get the bourbon and the
Irish whiskey out and hug it outor punch it out, or I'm an
andrithal, right and so we haveto do some of this, and so my
son, will Hanser, james Schrammand Jim Klauba myself.
We really worked together tomake this and it was a full
(34:27):
circle.
Some things that are in theprogram now we're definitely not
there.
In the beginning, some thingsthat were there got removed,
massaged, brought back in andall of a sudden now they're here
in a different facet that goeson there.
And so watching this man, itwas you're talking about not
wanting to see how sausage ismade, but eating it when it's
cooked.
I mean, that is definitely howthis is, and we still try to
(34:50):
adhere to ASP's philosophy oftuition-free training and I'll
turn it over to James because hewas one of the crux guys in
making the program.
But the only money that ASP as awhole takes out of the actual
course is for the kit.
(35:11):
We have a be your own defenderkit, and this kit is the same if
you're an end user or aninstructor or a trainer, and
that's it.
That's all that, and all we dois this actually, the cost of
this is all that ASP takes isthe cost of what's in this box
that we take back.
Everything else goes to anindividual, such as whatever
(35:34):
instructor, civilian instructoror trainer that is doing and
teaching.
It goes and covers their coststo be there.
So ASP as a whole is stilltrying to do what we can to give
back because we believe that itis an honorable piece.
We take so much, but we believethat we should still be giving
back to society in every chancethat we get.
So that's kind of what we'vedone and how, and I'll kind of
(35:57):
flip it over to James.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah, it's exciting.
It's been exciting for theselast few years working on the
program.
And Dow's definitely right,there's a lot of button heads
and I wish we could haverecorded all those sessions.
I wish we could have had acamera in all those sessions.
But to come full circle and tosee the program where it is now
and it is really new it's onlybeen out there for a few months
(36:24):
where people are actually goingthrough these programs, it's
exciting to be on the civilianside of things because all we've
ever done has been on the lawenforcement side of things and
getting feedback from civilianssaying I never knew that the
pepper spray that I carriedwould be used this way.
I never knew that if it's in mypurse, backpack, pocketbook,
(36:45):
that it's useless to me therebecause I'll never get to it if
I need it.
Going through the program,understanding that we're taking
the principles that we use inour law enforcement side of
training and applying that tocivilians, giving them that
opportunity to do somethingthat's not so watered down or
bogged down by techniques andkeeping it once again basic and
(37:05):
simple and making themunderstand hey, you need to be
your own defender, slashprotector, and how are you going
to do that Well, you have tofollow these principles, and if
you follow these principles youhave a better chance of doing
that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I love this aspect of it, but you're giving them the
tools as well.
There's tools out there forpeople now when it comes to your
OC sprays, your batons,flashlights.
Asp has a whole full line ofnon-lethal tools out there.
Yes, you could use batons to belethal, but overall the
(37:40):
practicality of it is they'renon-lethal tools.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Jason, I mean we know you've read the books on
killing and on combat.
I mean we know that humans arenot geared to take another
human's life.
We know that the average howabout we say that the average
human is not built, that that isthe desire that goes out there
and is done Even.
(38:04):
I mean, in the Civil War theyfound soldiers with multiple
balls into the rifles and neverpulling a trigger once In World
War I guys would aim, but never,ever fire cartridges at the
enemy.
And so we know as a human race,as a species, we don't want to
(38:25):
go out there and attack and killone another.
And now, yes, there arepredators that we must be able
to protect ourselves.
There's true evil in the world,but for those that need to
understand that that evil has tobe combated and how that we do,
that is by understanding thesephilosophies right.
(38:45):
It is by understanding how Ineed to protect myself and
having a less lethal opportunityto do that.
I mean that is huge and thatactually fits into some of how
people are built and designedand can take that and really
stomach that.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
You know it's funny if you go backwards in time.
15, 20 years ago, if someonewas on the subway and they were
getting attacked, if someone wason the street and they were
getting harassed, someone wouldprobably step in and help them.
Nowadays, all we ever get issomeone takes out their cell
phone and starts filming it andwe really try to drive this home
.
People will definitelyunderstand that that hey, I'm on
(39:26):
my own.
Even if there may be a fewpeople around there, I can't
count on them to come in andhelp me.
So I have to do something tolearn how to protect myself, to
give me the tools or theopportunity to avoid danger when
possible, so I don't even putmyself in those situations ahead
of time.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
And that's the beauty of how this course is kind of
designed.
The classroom portion talksabout that situational awareness
, right, that, paying attention,getting away as Pat Magnum are
talking about the 45 degreesyndrome, looking down at your
phone and having your head downand not paying attention to
what's going on around you.
(40:06):
You know, reacting to yourenvironment that's something
that everyone should be doingand paying attention to what's
going on.
And then, once you're reactingto your environment, like going
I probably shouldn't walk outthere to my car in an empty
parking lot with, you know, a1978 beater car sitting next to
it with the engine running and Ican't see anybody, right,
(40:26):
that's probably what we wouldcall a clue.
We shouldn't do that.
But today people just like dograb their phone and walk on the
right and put themselves in abad situation.
So you know, swimming with abuddy, making sure there's a
battle buddy system out there.
You know, making sure that I'mtelling someone hey, I'm going
to go from point A to point Band it's probably going to be
(40:47):
about 15 minutes for me to getthere.
Please check in with me, I'llcheck in with you.
Small little things like that,right, things that people are
like, well, that makes a lot ofsense.
Why didn't I think of thatExactly?
Why didn't you think of that?
Right, these are not hugepieces but combined we can try
to protect, take care of, defendsomebody out there in a street,
(41:08):
and then you get into the classor the gym quote unquote gym
portion, right, the drillingportion, and that gets you
actually into the all.
Right now I'm into asituational fidelity, right when
I have someone that I'm behindthe ball, I didn't pay attention
and now I have to do something.
Now I have to be able to createdistance.
Now I have to protect myself.
(41:29):
I have to defend my positionand it's awesome to see and even
you know, I have daughters.
To teach them what we're doingand watch them run with that and
learn is great.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I Really want to get into the next aspect and
probably our last.
The talking piece today was thenew red guns man, you know, the
red guns back in the day werelike you know, hey, you know
it's a red gun, it kind ofsimulates that what a Glock is
or whatever.
But you guys were really niceto donate to my foundation and
donate Six red guns with theirremoval magazines, like with
(42:07):
actual mag releases andeverything.
So what I do is I found a smalldepartment in South Carolina
and Really hurting for trainingequipment, and they had two
officers that were going to begoing to training this week and
they needed some red guns.
So I reached out to ask andasked was like hey, you know
what, we're gonna hook you up.
Here's the deal, we're gonnahelp you out.
You know, obviously you guys arein business, but you were
(42:28):
helping out the nonprofit, butAt no cost.
You know, at no cost you.
You provided these, thistraining equipment, but it
wasn't just red guns, it's thesered guns.
If everybody goes to theirwebsite and checks out the new,
was it the shadow systems, as Iwould have called?
The shadow system, too, comeswith two mags.
And for me, you know, seeing asI'm quasi retired now.
(42:50):
I like it because you know, ifI bought one for myself I could
also train in magazine exchangesand and train and in magazine
manipulation.
So there's a lot more to a redgun now than just a standard
block of plastic.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
So, man, I even have another phase that I want to get
into.
This is what I look at hisphase to.
I'm.
I have several differentfive-year, ten-year training
things that I would like to dothat we really can't talk about
because, you know, I haven'teven got permission from the
boss yet.
I'm really good at gettingslapped down About this.
(43:28):
I come up with some crazy ideasand then we got to let the real
guys get in on here and messwith it.
But it was our pleasure, firstof all, to be able to support
you and your team and make thishappen.
Secondly, let's take a terribletragedy that just got brought
back up in the news fromWashington DC at the training
where it was an ask batoninstructor training or an end
(43:53):
user training, from an ask batoninstructor who did not adhere
to safety rules and had a livefirearm and and and because of
that, and then still didn'tadhere to firearm safety rules.
And when it's a trainingfirearm or a live firearm, that
the firearm safety rules stillapply no matter what and and did
(44:15):
not adhere to those and a lifewas lost because of those
actions.
That that particular incidentis the reason that our red guns
are here.
It's the reason we do ourweapons systems and training
platforms like we do.
There have been several storiesof like rookies taking home
their firearms and watching TVand practicing dry fires and
(44:38):
magazine changes.
And when is the most dangeroustime in training that you could
have a Negligent or incidentalor whatever?
The new word is that you needto call it right.
You're popping off around whenis the most dangerous time for
that to occur, and that's at thevery end of your training cycle
.
And why does that take place?
Well, because you're like, ohhey, well, wait a minute, let me
(45:00):
do one more thing.
And you forgot that.
You loaded it back up with liveammunition and you fire off
around and shoot it through theTV, through the wall, at a loved
one or whatever.
Takes place right and bad stuffhappens.
So we want to say, hey, we're,there's training pieces out
there and fidelity of training,right, adhering to the realistic
training that we can do, whichis how.
(45:21):
The second evolution of what wecall our enhanced training
weapons, the Magazines that areremovable.
We have shadow systemsmagazines that are removable.
If you're not familiar shadowsystems firearms, they are
phenomenal.
Go get one, shoot one.
They are pretty awesome piecesof weapons and they fit the
(45:42):
Glock style holsters that areout there as many agencies that
are starting to switch over aswell to this, and so we have
that system.
We have your M 17, m 18, likeyour sick 320s that are out
there as well.
For that a Beretta 92 is theold M 9s from the military, and
then we have in for platforms.
(46:02):
You can do long guns and trainon magazine releases for long
guns as well.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Because I was just looking at that.
Right now I'm looking at yourwebsite.
Yeah, well, like no, it's notthe shadow systems, you make
them for the different systems.
So yeah, you even have the HK416 on there and everything.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
I'm like you another implant.
We actually had a specialdesign that we did for the
French Army for the HK 416s, andwe delivered 8009000 long guns
for them, 20000 fire or handguns for them.
That are magazine, reallyenhanced guns.
We're very lucky and you'd belike well, why are they red?
(46:38):
Everything else is blue.
Right in the army it's blue orit's this.
But well, the reason we do redis because If I'm down range and
I'm looking back at my trainingline and I see red pointed at
me, we're golden, but I may notbe able to distinguish a darker
color from the real firearm.
And if you're a firearmsinstructor and you're practicing
(47:00):
this and you're down range andyou look back and there's a
pucker factor that goes on atthat point in time, because
these are recruit a heck, theseare sometimes Tenured officers
who are doing stupid things withfirearms.
You know, my daughter's knowthat, no matter what color it is
, you ask is that a real firearm?
And then you adhere to thefirearm safety rules.
(47:20):
Right Finger off the triggerpoint is safe direction.
We work on clearing stuff inthe house.
We're, we're a combativeshousehold, right, people like
you are a nut.
No, I'm raising little warriorsas a, as a family that can take
care of themselves when I'm notaround.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Well, gentlemen, I do appreciate this conversation
today.
Everybody, if you really dowant to learn how to become a If
you're an LAO, I should say,are in that community.
If you want to become an assinstructor, really check out
their website, ask dash USA comm, and then they also have all
your line of gear on there.
I do want to say I do have theat the pen light.
It's like a pen light.
(47:58):
You don't always have theopportunity to carry a big old
flashlight with you orflashlight anywhere in our days.
Always have some sort ofillumination to align you.
Seriously, you never know whenyou're gonna be in the dark.
But feel free to go around ifyou guys have anything else for
us.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Oh, I was gonna say two is one, one is none.
Right in a daytime having aflashlight.
I don't think any one of usthree leave the house without
having some sort of lightingsystem, because even in the
daylight, where our lights andhow they're designed, man, you
can grab someone's attention byshining in their eyes, you know
you can gain yourself space, youcan gain yourself an element to
leave right the best fights,the one that you're not present
(48:38):
for.
And we're lucky I'm lucky as acompany, as a person working for
a company, to have this companythat I would get to work for,
work with these gents here.
I get to learn so much fromthem.
They're constantly kicking mybutt and challenging me and
making me learn and strive more.
And I mean, if I got to say onething for these guys that are
out there is make sure thatyou're present when you're home,
(48:59):
be present in your job, bepresent for your workouts, be
present when you're doingsomething right, don't Just make
, be intentional in yourpresence and especially, be
present at home.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
Yeah, jason, just wanted to say thanks for having
us on as true honor and justpractice what you preach and
keep training hard.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, thank you very much.
It was a lot of fun.
It was great to be on here totalk about all these talk topics
.
I really appreciate it.
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