August 21, 2024 • 31 mins
Ever wondered how a childhood love for military history can shape a remarkable career in naval intelligence? Join us as we sit down with MP Woodward to trace his journey from naval intelligence to authoring the newest Tom Clancy novel.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
you are a busy man.
Hey, welcome to the show, mpwoodward.
You just got off one of the oneof the best podcasts out there,
the break it down Down showwith Pete Turner, but now you're
on to Protectors, so welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you.
Hopefully I'm not broken down.
Thank you, it's good to be here, jason, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Now, Pete's a great guy.
You know, one thing I likeabout Pete is his background in
Intel, and that's kind of one ofthe reasons I wanted to have
you on today was not only totalk about Shadow State, the
upcoming Tom Clancy thriller,but to also talk about
intelligence Intelligence on abattlefield and intelligence
outside the battlefield.
Now, you've had like a decadeplus in the intelligence service
(00:55):
as a naval officer.
But you don't just start out inthe Navy, you got to get there.
So what's a childhood likeYou're like, hey, one day you're
like I think I'll join a Navyand get an Intel and could jump
all over the world with allthese different specialized
units.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, I was a great fan and still am a great fan of
history.
I really enjoy US history andmilitary history in particular,
and growing up I read lots ofbooks that made me want to be
not just a writer but also anaval officer.
So I can think back to HermanWook and the Horatio Hornblower
(01:37):
series by CS Forrester, or lotsof literature that goes in that
direction.
You know lots of literaturethat goes in that direction.
James Michener's Tales of theSouth Pacific, all those things
kind of fired my imagination asa kid, and when I looked at the
military I was very patrioticand I wanted to serve my country
(01:58):
.
I just thought it wasinteresting how the Navy was
involved in all over the world,in global affairs, because the
ocean, you know, covers theworld and I thought that the sea
battles were, you know, sort offascinating from a strategy
(02:18):
perspective.
And then, as far asintelligence goes, that was
something that I chose because Ireally liked the intersection
at the time with technology andbeing involved in higher level
decisions where you know theseare decisions being made by the
(02:39):
war fighters but you're thereadvising them, and I think at
that age I was in kind of ahurry and I liked to be close to
those guys and be in the room.
To me that was superinteresting.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
When you look at Navy and you look at the massive
battles, you know you think ofWorld War II.
Even World War I has a massivebattles here and there, little
ones, not compared to World WarII.
But you know, when you thinkabout World ii, in the battles
and how strategic having a navywas and then having those wars
put into paper, whether it'sfiction or non-fiction, it
(03:15):
boosts, it stimulates your mind.
You know there's the same thingwith when I was a child.
It was like well, not a child,I could say the 80s and 90s,
growing up and reading the booksand and visualizing yourself as
one of the characters in there.
You know, that's one of thereasons I joined the army and
then, later on, when it becametime for me to get out and go to
ROTC, I read the books byHackworth Colonel Hackworth from
(03:37):
Vietnam and and all of thosebooks, trying to find the right
leadership principles, the rightpath for me.
So I would absorb everything.
That's why I think when you,when you said you were reading
books, really it is.
Reading is fundamental.
It really does push you forwardto whatever your path is going
to be.
I think so much more than youcan get off of social media and
(04:02):
off of videos and movies, Ithink, just reading and
visualizing that character asyourself.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I couldn't agree more .
I think that when there'sstreaming media and we all enjoy
that and you can sit there andbe entertained, but to me that's
participating less than you dowhen you're really gripped by a
book.
For starters, books can belonger and be with you for weeks
(04:29):
right and your companion onairplanes and in dead spaces
between meetings and so on andso forth.
So you're just kind ofbackground processing them quite
a bit and you get to livethrough characters.
And you mentioned some of theinfluential army books.
One, uh one book I've I've goneback to um time and again about
(04:52):
leadership lessons and I thinkthey actually I think they teach
it at West point.
But have you ever read once inthe Eagle?
Um, I love that book.
I've read that, you know, acouple of three times and, um, I
and I just enjoy the leadershipdilemmas that are presented
there in World War II and youcan admire how the lead
character, sam Damon, goes aboutdoing things in an honorable
(05:16):
way and it's inspiring.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
There are so many different books that are part of
the reading list of thesemilitary academies and I think
they should really push thosedown to the lower echelons as
far as like the NCO Corps aswell.
You know, I think in West Pointthey made you read Platoon
Leader.
I mean I was, I was justregular ROTC.
I wasn't an academy type, youknow cause, I was prior enlisted
and a little bit too old to getthere.
But you know, like Platoon,another great one was like Hal
(05:41):
Moore's book.
You know we Were Soldiers Onceand Young, yeah, just different
books.
That just kind of puts you inthat battle space.
Now, when you're thinking aboutbooks like that, I mean like
the Army has so many, you knowthe Army books are, you know, a
dime a dozen nowadays than theywere back then.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
But what was your like naval protagonist, your
nonfiction, the leader youlooked up to?
I again going back to history,chester Nimitz, I think, was
given this incredible job ofokay, hey, you're going to
inherit this broken fleet thatthe Japanese struck and this is.
It is so highly strategic.
You know they have a fleet.
You know what was?
(06:26):
They have nine aircraftcarriers.
We have three, um, you knowthey're, they're out there,
we're not.
They just knocked over thephilippines.
They've basically taken awayeverything.
Um, now go back in and and winit all back.
And when you go and you look atthe Battle of Midway and I
recommend anybody to go and readabout it or watch either the
(06:53):
more recent movie or the olderone, but much of that, the
success of that battle comesdown to an intelligence officer
named Edward Layton and he did a.
(07:15):
He fooled the Japanese intoadmitting that they were going
to rally their, their aircraftcarriers around Midway Island
and take it.
And we knew they were coming,we knew where they were going to
come from.
They didn't know that.
We knew we were able to go inwith three aircraft carriers and
duel with them and really turnthe entire tide of the war in
1942.
And had that battle notunfolded the way it did.
There's no guarantee that wewould have won the war in the
(07:38):
Pacific because we were sovastly outgunned.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
When you get into the Navy and you go through the
whole commissioning pipeline,like with me, I had to pick the
branch I wanted to go, so Ipicked infantry.
Just because you know I wantedto go infantry, I mean there was
a long story behind it.
But when you get into the navyand you're going through, did
you rtc or the academy?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
yeah, no, I was an nrotc scholarship student.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah see, that's what I'm talking about, right there,
boom.
So then anyway, do you pickyour branch as well, or do you
like, kind of like you know?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think you know it's uh, what?
What was the saying?
Right, there's what you want todo and then there's what the
navy wants you to do, the needsin the navy, and um, so I, as I,
as I think back, I wanted to bea pilot.
That Top Gun came out a coupleof years earlier and I think the
Navy was flooded with peoplethat wanted to be pilots, and I
(08:34):
was on my way to flight schooland then I was.
I was actually injured in anon-military way, but I severely
injured right back, whichrequired surgery and so on and
so forth, and that thatdisqualified me from from going
and becoming a pilot.
And then I was like, well, thenext best thing I can think of
(08:54):
to do is to be an intelligenceofficer.
And then I actually got quiteexcited about that.
And then the irony, jason, is,you know, the very first thing
they did to me after I wascommissioned was send me to
flight school, because they saidat the time that all
intelligence officers need toget close to aviators to
understand strike warfare.
So I went to Pensacola and wentthrough the Naval Flight
(09:17):
Officer Program.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
So you never know interesting, yeah, so you never
know.
You know, like when you branchmi and the in the army, you know
I believe you everybody goesthrough the all-source training
and then they go on to you likelater on their career like human
oscent, sigan.
Now, what kind of intelspecialty did you get into after
kind of like your first coupleyears?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So as a naval officer it's a little, I think, more
generalist probably, and it justvaries by the command you're at
.
So you go through training inDamneck, virginia, at the Navy
Marine Corps IntelligenceTraining Center and that's
fairly long I think it was atleast six months or something
like that and then after that itjust depends on the billet that
(10:02):
you go to, and then after thatit just depends on the billet
that you go to.
I ended up everybody does awhat I would call a more
tactical job where you'resupporting a war fighting unit,
and so I had a little bit of adetour where I went to the
Philippines for a while but thenended up in an A6 intruder
squadron on the USS Carl Vinsonand spent, you know, quite a bit
(10:27):
of time with that.
After that it's you get.
I think that officers candevelop a little more
specificity, because then you gooff to a shore tour and that
shore tour is probably going tobe more focused in know, imagery
(10:47):
or or signals, intelligence oror whatever, and then you can
sort of tailor your career tofit that.
But at least when I was in,nobody came along and said no,
no, you're this kind of uh,naval intelligence officer, you
just were one now, what timeframe were you in?
this is.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I was commissioned in 1990 and got out, you know,
right around 2000 okay, yeah, sothat the cold war era was very
interesting because I I joinedthe army enlisted in 90s and
commissioned later on.
But the cold war era and Ialways try to tell people this
especially the navy was aninteresting time for the navy
(11:21):
because you were doing realworld, you were ending up on the
shore somewhere.
You were ending up doing realworld intelligence.
So did you eventually get intothe human side or did you kind
of stay into the significantside?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
There was human reporting, and I did do a job in
the Philippines for a while.
That was before the base closed.
That was a little bit closer tothat, but by and large it was
more around analyzing fleets.
And you're right, the Cold Warwas, as far as naval
(11:56):
intelligence goes, that wassomething of a golden era, if
you could call a conflict noneof us really want.
But because it was really about,hey, what are the Soviets doing
right now?
Where are they doing it?
How are they amassing resources?
They didn't have the portfacilities that we had or the
(12:17):
alliances that we had, and stilldon't, nor do the Chinese, and
so that made them do kind ofunusual things.
And so when I was, you know,going through NROTC you know
that was the late eighties andbig time cold war and then I got
to I got, I basically had afront row seat to seeing, seeing
(12:40):
the military shift from thecold war muscles that had built
up to what we were calling atthe time asymmetric threats and
developing a new strategy thatthe Navy called From the Sea.
That was all about littoralwarfare and hey, how are we
going to use this vast servicethat we have to keep America
(13:03):
safe?
And so it was interesting to bethere at a time of transition
you know you speak of transition.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
10 years is a long time.
That's midway point you're likehuh yeah, do I stick it out or
do I do something else?
So now you're roughly what 2829 years old, maybe a little bit
older.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, I was.
I was right at the point ofgoing to my next C tour as a
lieutenant commander, and so ourmajor right before and at the
time, I was married.
I was married, I wanted to havechildren, and even adding to
(13:50):
that, because I had a lot oftechnical experience in
communications, just in theintelligence field.
You'll recall, back then theinternet was just blowing up and
I was pretty anxious to getgoing, to get going and and,
frankly, make some money.
So I got, I worked on my MBA atnight and decided to transition
out of the military.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Well, you say make money.
But there's another thing thatyou mentioned.
Back.
There is like you want to havea family.
Good luck having a family.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, you bet, and it was obvious to me at that at
that point in your life, jason,as you mentioned, at that age,
you know, you, you do have tomake those hard decisions and I
could see that, hey, to bereally, um, to be really, I
didn't want to be somebody thatwas going to be in per se 13
(14:41):
years because you're like you,you didn't quite make it a full
career, like it was a little toolong.
So I felt it was this kind ofcritical mass turning point
where, hey, if you want to havea family and develop a separate
career, this is the age whereyou have to do that.
Or you, you, you are veryserious about this career and
(15:02):
pursue it to its end and I havegosh, the, the vast majority of
the guys I served with did dothat.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
You know, when you think about it.
You know 10 years is it's thattransition point.
You know you can, and 13 yearsare like well, I might as well
just stay another seven.
Next thing, you know you're 40years old and how marketable are
you to move into the, into thecivilian world?
You know, and like you saidback then, 2000 was like the
cusp of the internet.
You know you're, you're rightthere.
(15:30):
That's when things are going tobe like just taken off.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, and I don't know.
You know, I can recall sittingat these sun micros and there
were the sun microsystems, theseworkstations, you know they
were big and fancy and this islike, uh, I guess like 1993.
So the internet was the thingwe called the information super
highway, that was going to comein the future.
(15:54):
But there I was looking atbrowsers and file sharing across
you know thousands andthousands of miles and um
imagery and all these kinds ofthings, and it's like look, I'm,
I'm, I'm no genius, but I got,I have a hunch here that this
technology is going to be very,very big and and was anxious to
(16:17):
to become a part of that in thecivilian side.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Now, did you have something lined up in the
civilian side, or did you justsaid hey, you know what boom I'm
going for it?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I did not have something lined up.
Well, you, you know the onething that that is nice about
transitioning out of themilitary and I have to say that
because this was the, the, thetweener years between the cold
war and the war on terror reallythe Navy was getting smaller
and so they did I thought, aremarkably good job for junior
(16:52):
officers like me who wanted totransition out of preparing you
for that.
So they taught you know, theybrought in civilian contractors
and things and said, hey, thisis how you interview for a job,
this is how you describe yourexperience, all those kinds of
things.
So I did not have somethinglined up, but then I felt like I
(17:12):
, you know I had, I had, I wasreasonably experienced for the
jobs I was going for in terms ofmaturity, and I didn't, I
didn't struggle to find a job incorporate America.
And then the strange thing is,two days after entering
corporate America, it's like youwere never in the Navy.
It's an entire different world.
(17:34):
And then you adapt and learnthose rules.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, talk about a different world, especially a
decade.
You know, three or four yearsyou still kind of have a
foothold into the civilian world.
But now you're 10 years in.
Now you transition into thecivilian world and now you get
the corporate gig.
Now let's fast forward to whenyou actually pulled up.
I was going to say when youpicked up the pen.
But when you sat down behindthe typewriter, behind the
(18:00):
keyboard, and said, hey, youknow what?
I have some creative juice inhere.
I really want to get this goingyeah, I am.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I made several.
Like I said, I was inspired umas a young man, both to go into
the navy but also to write,because the way that those that
that fiction um lived with me, Ijust thought it was cool and I
thought I would love to be partof that and learn how to do that
.
So I made a couple of attempts,you know, early on in my Navy
(18:31):
career, at writing fictionbecause I was like, look, you're
seeing so much interestingsource material, not necessarily
classified techno thriller, tomClancy stuff, but just just,
you know, moral dilemmas andstruggles and those kinds of
things.
So but I didn't really knowwhat I was doing and abandoned
all those efforts and then gotreally, really busy in the
(18:53):
corporate world and kind ofdidn't pick up the pen again
until, frankly, covid.
And when COVID happened, all ofa sudden I had extra time.
I've always been a morningperson and all of a sudden I had
all this extra time in themorning because the first call
would be at I don't know nineo'clock or something and I'd be
like well, I think I can, justfor fun, for something to do.
(19:14):
I was in prime video, I saw theway stories were put together.
I'd met screenwriters here andthere, and it taught me to sort
of analyze and break it down alittle bit more, a story like,
as you would, a screenplay.
(19:35):
And when I restarted thateffort I thought, well, all
right, I have this background inthe military and intelligence.
I can weave a compellingnational security story, as long
as I can get the mechanicsright, you know, and make it
pacey and do characterdevelopment.
Okay.
So so I sat down and did thatfor the first time, and for the
(19:55):
first time ever, it, it, itworked, it broke through and and
here I am, so I'm I'm super,super grateful for it.
I feel very lucky and, um, Ididn't necessarily know I had it
in me.
I know I wanted to have it inme, but now this is what I do
and I'm working every day to tryto get better at it.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Well, you know you said, now here you are, and I
mean Jack Ryan jr, Tom Clancy,that's, that's a heck.
That's a heck of a jump whenwe're talking like the COVID era
, and now all of a sudden you'repenning one of the top-selling
books, top-selling characters inthe world.
I mean Tom Clancy is knownthroughout the world through the
(20:37):
universe.
There's probably sent insignals somewhere.
I mean, really, he seriouslythat name is a brand and that
brand is incredibly a lot ofpressure.
You know penning your own booksand then all of a sudden you
get this thing where it's likeyou know what you ever hear of,
uh, of tom clancy, and you'relike, uh, yeah yeah it, um, it
(21:01):
is it first off.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It's an honor to be part of that.
And there are other legacyauthors, of course.
That came before me and I gotto know Don Bentley reasonably
well in you know, visiting downin Austin and stuff, and he was
the.
He was working on the juniorbooks and then he went off to do
the Vince Flynn books when KyleMills I think Kyle Mills
(21:26):
retired or he might be he justdidn't want to do the Flynn
books anymore and so when Donwent, there was this vacancy and
my editor called and asked meif I'd be interested in doing
this.
Of course it's a you knowexpletive, yeah, right.
And and I think it's you know,yeah, you spend about three
(21:47):
hours celebrating over a bourbonand then going oh man, how do I
do this?
Right, there is intensepressure and I think I feel a
tremendous responsibility to getthings right for the fans and
to provide service for the fansand fun for the fans of of this,
of this genre.
(22:07):
So it's certainly a huge honor,a lot, a lot, a lot of pressure
, but but just just a wonderfulexperience for me.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
This must've been really cool, taking on Clancy as
someone with your Navalintelligence background and with
your, I like to say big Navyyeah, you know, with your naval
intelligence background and withyour, I like to say big navy
yeah, you know your big navybackground.
And all of a sudden, now youhave to do the research, now you
have to put pen to paper.
Now you have to make thesecharacters work and make it one
thing we know about clancy's.
(22:38):
It's got to be realistic.
Yeah, people are going to beemailing you 10 years from now,
like I mean, you know, I've hadDon on before and those guys,
and it's just like, yeah, you'regoing to get these random
emails from someone's going toread something.
But now you have to plan thisbook out and you have to make it
on a global scale, because youknow we're not looking when you
(22:59):
think about Clancy.
You're not thinking, hey, we'regoing to do this in the state
of New Jersey, we're going to dothis worldwide.
So what was your first stepafter you had that burp and
you're like, ok, I need to mapthis thing out.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Well, it was basically to map it out.
The Clancy brand representsnational security, authentic
technology, authentic operationsand almost an existential
defense problem, or a bigdefense problem that needs to be
(23:36):
solved.
The Jack Ryan Jr books are alittle bit different than the
Jack Ryan Sr books in that JackRyan Sr is the president of the
United States, so he's goteverything at his command right
With Jr, and this is the way Iapproached it.
So I thought about the TomClancy brand, as I just
discussed.
I know that I couldn't be thesenior version.
(23:58):
I know that I couldn't be the,you know, the senior version.
I had to be the junior version,where you're effectively thrown
into the action, you're throwninto a scenario and you're you
have.
Jack.
Jr has enough context, givenwho his father is and his
background and the training thathe's had to recognize a threat,
but he's also close enough toit that he can do something
(24:20):
about it personally.
So I built a story that hitthose parameters and shared it
with my editor and said what doyou think?
And we talked through it andthen from that, basically I
built an outline and mapped itout.
But I thought a lot about whatyou're describing in terms of
honoring the brand.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
When you're thinking about branding and when you're
thinking about the tacticallevel as well.
And now we're going to bedealing with the strategic hey,
he's got his dad's the president, but he's going to be at the
tactical level.
The great thing about theinformation age now, and a great
thing about this author network, is that you can reach out to
people and you can find theright information, the right
equipment, the right techniques,techniques and procedures and
aren't going to be obviouslyblow any top secret stuff out
(25:02):
there, but you can reach out tothe network.
Did you use your network?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So so I know some specialforces operators who are, you
know, out now.
One of them was a friend ofmine that goes all the way back
to you know.
You know out now.
One of them was a friend ofmine that goes all the way back
to, you know, when we were 19and he ended up as a Sergeant
(25:29):
Major in Delta Force and retiredabout I don't know seven, eight
years ago.
So his knowledge was supercurrent.
And I think that when you, youknow, you picture an author like
they're going to act like ajournalist and they're going to
fly out and they're going tointerview a guy and they're
going to put a tape recorder onthe table and you're like man, I
don't have time for that, butin the age that we're in, you're
(25:49):
kind of in touch with peopleall the time.
You know it's not hard to stayin touch with people.
So a quick text message youknow what kind of scope would
you use in this case?
Right passage.
You know what kind of scopewould you use in this case,
right?
Or you know, do guys choose theHK416 or do they go with the
standard M4?
And you know, and then I learnall about.
Well, you know there's airpistons and gas pistons or
(26:12):
machine pistons, et cetera, andhave a whole discussion about it
, and so anytime I came acrossthings like that, yeah, the
internet can give you a quickanswer.
But then for a deeper answer,um, it's great to be able to
just just hit people reallyquickly.
I know a lot of ex pilots, um,et cetera, and so that that was.
That's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I think when you take on a Clancy, you need to have
that network.
One thing I've noticed you knowI've been geez.
You're going to be like episode500 or something.
So many of my interviews havebeen with authors and so many of
the authors that I intervieware really kind when it comes to
helping out other authors.
And you mentioned Don Bentley.
(26:52):
Don's another one of them whereyou'd be like, hey, Don, can
you help me out with this?
Sure, you know, it's like oneof those people where they're
not.
You know, back in our day.
I would say our day is like the70s, 80s, 90s.
It's like, you know, you wouldwrite a letter and you might get
a response.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I got to tell you a quick story and I'll let you
talk.
I remember when I was goingthrough ROTC I emailed Hackworth
the only email I had this wasback then and I said what kind
of advice do you have?
And he actually responded back.
Someone responded back and Iwish I still had access to that
email account.
It was like a Juno accountwhere I had his email.
(27:35):
I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
But nowadays like you said, it's like instantaneously
boom text.
Well, my story kind of likethat is when I was in ROTC.
I think I was a freshman.
When do you remember?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
the book the Flight of the Intruder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So I read that.
I love that book.
I love that it was a popularbook.
I was really really interestedin that stuff.
And so then, by the time, I'man intelligence officer I meant
I mentioned I went to an A6squadron and it was VA 196,
which happened to have beenStephen Kuntz's squadron, and uh
, and so he went on to have awriting career and so so when I
(28:17):
had my first book, my editor waslike, hey, is there anybody you
could reach out to for a blurb?
And I was like, well, I don'tknow Stephen Koontz, but I, you
know, I just I found his emailand I emailed him and and he was
like he was like normally I I'dsay no, but okay, send it to me
.
And he gave me.
You know, he, he, he reallyloved the book.
(28:38):
He actually called me.
He actually got on the phoneand called me back and was like
I want to talk about this.
And he's been.
I've communicated here and theresince then and I agree with you
, I was very surprised, cominginto this new, at just how kind
people are, at just how kindpeople are.
Bentley's another one where Ihad my deal.
(29:00):
I knew my editor was the sameeditor that Tom had, and I
basically found him on LinkedInand was like hey, do you want to
?
And he immediately got in touchwith me.
We spoke on the phone.
He gave me some early advice.
So, yeah, there's Mark Greeney,same thing, um so, so there's,
(29:22):
a really nice guy, um so sothese guys are, are, are.
are very generous with sharingthat kind of thing.
It's been a pleasant surprise.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yeah, it's so surprising man and I'm I'm just
really excited for this newgeneration and you know when I
really need to catch up on myclancy man, and you know what's
cool about is, I could actuallyjust start again.
Yeah, and listen.
I love audiobooks.
Man.
I commute to work in themorning.
I'm, I'm up at o dark 30.
I got about 30 minutes.
(29:51):
I'm just like boom, I knockthem out like it's nothing yeah,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I mean, when I got this gig I went back and, uh,
reread a couple of the olderClancy's and then, and then
caught up on.
I hadn't read all the Jack RyanJr novels but I went back and
read a bunch by Mike.
I had read Don's but I wentback and read the Mike Madden
books too and yeah, it's, it's,it's a lot of fun and for
somebody in my position it'scertainly.
(30:17):
I think it's required reading,it's certainly, it's certainly
helpful absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Shadow state comes out august 20th, correct?
That's going to be.
Where's your first stop goingto be?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
uh, first stops in seattle oh nice, yeah, very cool
.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Well, I appreciate you coming on.
Um, we you're.
I'm glad I didn't go down atangent.
I usually do, because oncesomeone mentions a gun you
mentioned the hk416 I startgoing off in these tangents
about oh, we need to go shootagain.
I do this with don andeverybody else.
I'm like yeah, what kind ofguns are we using here?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
yeah, so I mean, yeah , I can go for 30 minutes just
talking about guns well, uh,yeah, next time you do invite me
to go along shooting, because Iwrite about them.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I don't get to shoot all these exotic things all that
often, so oh my gosh as soon asas soon as we hit this end on a
record, I'll we're gonna besigning you up for a shooting
course, all right?
Well, everybody, make sure youcheck out.
Shadow state coming out august20th jack ryan jr.
you are a busy man.
Hey, welcome to the show, mpwoodward.
You just got off one of the oneof the best podcasts out there,
the break it down Down showwith Pete Turner, but now you're
on to Protectors, so welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you.
Hopefully I'm not broken down.
Thank you, it's good to be here, jason, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Now, Pete's a great guy.
You know, one thing I likeabout Pete is his background in
Intel, and that's kind of one ofthe reasons I wanted to have
you on today was not only totalk about Shadow State, the
upcoming Tom Clancy thriller,but to also talk about
intelligence Intelligence on abattlefield and intelligence
outside the battlefield.
Now, you've had like a decadeplus in the intelligence service
(00:55):
as a naval officer.
But you don't just start out inthe Navy, you got to get there.
So what's a childhood likeYou're like, hey, one day you're
like I think I'll join a Navyand get an Intel and could jump
all over the world with allthese different specialized
units.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, I was a great fan and still am a great fan of
history.
I really enjoy US history andmilitary history in particular,
and growing up I read lots ofbooks that made me want to be
not just a writer but also anaval officer.
So I can think back to HermanWook and the Horatio Hornblower
(01:37):
series by CS Forrester, or lotsof literature that goes in that
direction.
You know lots of literaturethat goes in that direction.
James Michener's Tales of theSouth Pacific, all those things
kind of fired my imagination asa kid, and when I looked at the
military I was very patrioticand I wanted to serve my country
(01:58):
.
I just thought it wasinteresting how the Navy was
involved in all over the world,in global affairs, because the
ocean, you know, covers theworld and I thought that the sea
battles were, you know, sort offascinating from a strategy
(02:18):
perspective.
And then, as far asintelligence goes, that was
something that I chose because Ireally liked the intersection
at the time with technology andbeing involved in higher level
decisions where you know theseare decisions being made by the
(02:39):
war fighters but you're thereadvising them, and I think at
that age I was in kind of ahurry and I liked to be close to
those guys and be in the room.
To me that was superinteresting.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
When you look at Navy and you look at the massive
battles, you know you think ofWorld War II.
Even World War I has a massivebattles here and there, little
ones, not compared to World WarII.
But you know, when you thinkabout World ii, in the battles
and how strategic having a navywas and then having those wars
put into paper, whether it'sfiction or non-fiction, it
(03:15):
boosts, it stimulates your mind.
You know there's the same thingwith when I was a child.
It was like well, not a child,I could say the 80s and 90s,
growing up and reading the booksand and visualizing yourself as
one of the characters in there.
You know, that's one of thereasons I joined the army and
then, later on, when it becametime for me to get out and go to
ROTC, I read the books byHackworth Colonel Hackworth from
(03:37):
Vietnam and and all of thosebooks, trying to find the right
leadership principles, the rightpath for me.
So I would absorb everything.
That's why I think when you,when you said you were reading
books, really it is.
Reading is fundamental.
It really does push you forwardto whatever your path is going
to be.
I think so much more than youcan get off of social media and
(04:02):
off of videos and movies, Ithink, just reading and
visualizing that character asyourself.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I couldn't agree more .
I think that when there'sstreaming media and we all enjoy
that and you can sit there andbe entertained, but to me that's
participating less than you dowhen you're really gripped by a
book.
For starters, books can belonger and be with you for weeks
(04:29):
right and your companion onairplanes and in dead spaces
between meetings and so on andso forth.
So you're just kind ofbackground processing them quite
a bit and you get to livethrough characters.
And you mentioned some of theinfluential army books.
One, uh one book I've I've goneback to um time and again about
(04:52):
leadership lessons and I thinkthey actually I think they teach
it at West point.
But have you ever read once inthe Eagle?
Um, I love that book.
I've read that, you know, acouple of three times and, um, I
and I just enjoy the leadershipdilemmas that are presented
there in World War II and youcan admire how the lead
character, sam Damon, goes aboutdoing things in an honorable
(05:16):
way and it's inspiring.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
There are so many different books that are part of
the reading list of thesemilitary academies and I think
they should really push thosedown to the lower echelons as
far as like the NCO Corps aswell.
You know, I think in West Pointthey made you read Platoon
Leader.
I mean I was, I was justregular ROTC.
I wasn't an academy type, youknow cause, I was prior enlisted
and a little bit too old to getthere.
But you know, like Platoon,another great one was like Hal
(05:41):
Moore's book.
You know we Were Soldiers Onceand Young, yeah, just different
books.
That just kind of puts you inthat battle space.
Now, when you're thinking aboutbooks like that, I mean like
the Army has so many, you knowthe Army books are, you know, a
dime a dozen nowadays than theywere back then.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
But what was your like naval protagonist, your
nonfiction, the leader youlooked up to?
I again going back to history,chester Nimitz, I think, was
given this incredible job ofokay, hey, you're going to
inherit this broken fleet thatthe Japanese struck and this is.
It is so highly strategic.
You know they have a fleet.
You know what was?
(06:26):
They have nine aircraftcarriers.
We have three, um, you knowthey're, they're out there,
we're not.
They just knocked over thephilippines.
They've basically taken awayeverything.
Um, now go back in and and winit all back.
And when you go and you look atthe Battle of Midway and I
recommend anybody to go and readabout it or watch either the
(06:53):
more recent movie or the olderone, but much of that, the
success of that battle comesdown to an intelligence officer
named Edward Layton and he did a.
(07:15):
He fooled the Japanese intoadmitting that they were going
to rally their, their aircraftcarriers around Midway Island
and take it.
And we knew they were coming,we knew where they were going to
come from.
They didn't know that.
We knew we were able to go inwith three aircraft carriers and
duel with them and really turnthe entire tide of the war in
1942.
And had that battle notunfolded the way it did.
There's no guarantee that wewould have won the war in the
(07:38):
Pacific because we were sovastly outgunned.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
When you get into the Navy and you go through the
whole commissioning pipeline,like with me, I had to pick the
branch I wanted to go, so Ipicked infantry.
Just because you know I wantedto go infantry, I mean there was
a long story behind it.
But when you get into the navyand you're going through, did
you rtc or the academy?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
yeah, no, I was an nrotc scholarship student.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah see, that's what I'm talking about, right there,
boom.
So then anyway, do you pickyour branch as well, or do you
like, kind of like you know?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think you know it's uh, what?
What was the saying?
Right, there's what you want todo and then there's what the
navy wants you to do, the needsin the navy, and um, so I, as I,
as I think back, I wanted to bea pilot.
That Top Gun came out a coupleof years earlier and I think the
Navy was flooded with peoplethat wanted to be pilots, and I
(08:34):
was on my way to flight schooland then I was.
I was actually injured in anon-military way, but I severely
injured right back, whichrequired surgery and so on and
so forth, and that thatdisqualified me from from going
and becoming a pilot.
And then I was like, well, thenext best thing I can think of
(08:54):
to do is to be an intelligenceofficer.
And then I actually got quiteexcited about that.
And then the irony, jason, is,you know, the very first thing
they did to me after I wascommissioned was send me to
flight school, because they saidat the time that all
intelligence officers need toget close to aviators to
understand strike warfare.
So I went to Pensacola and wentthrough the Naval Flight
(09:17):
Officer Program.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
So you never know interesting, yeah, so you never
know.
You know, like when you branchmi and the in the army, you know
I believe you everybody goesthrough the all-source training
and then they go on to you likelater on their career like human
oscent, sigan.
Now, what kind of intelspecialty did you get into after
kind of like your first coupleyears?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So as a naval officer it's a little, I think, more
generalist probably, and it justvaries by the command you're at
.
So you go through training inDamneck, virginia, at the Navy
Marine Corps IntelligenceTraining Center and that's
fairly long I think it was atleast six months or something
like that and then after that itjust depends on the billet that
(10:02):
you go to, and then after thatit just depends on the billet
that you go to.
I ended up everybody does awhat I would call a more
tactical job where you'resupporting a war fighting unit,
and so I had a little bit of adetour where I went to the
Philippines for a while but thenended up in an A6 intruder
squadron on the USS Carl Vinsonand spent, you know, quite a bit
(10:27):
of time with that.
After that it's you get.
I think that officers candevelop a little more
specificity, because then you gooff to a shore tour and that
shore tour is probably going tobe more focused in know, imagery
(10:47):
or or signals, intelligence oror whatever, and then you can
sort of tailor your career tofit that.
But at least when I was in,nobody came along and said no,
no, you're this kind of uh,naval intelligence officer, you
just were one now, what timeframe were you in?
this is.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I was commissioned in 1990 and got out, you know,
right around 2000 okay, yeah, sothat the cold war era was very
interesting because I I joinedthe army enlisted in 90s and
commissioned later on.
But the cold war era and Ialways try to tell people this
especially the navy was aninteresting time for the navy
(11:21):
because you were doing realworld, you were ending up on the
shore somewhere.
You were ending up doing realworld intelligence.
So did you eventually get intothe human side or did you kind
of stay into the significantside?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
There was human reporting, and I did do a job in
the Philippines for a while.
That was before the base closed.
That was a little bit closer tothat, but by and large it was
more around analyzing fleets.
And you're right, the Cold Warwas, as far as naval
(11:56):
intelligence goes, that wassomething of a golden era, if
you could call a conflict noneof us really want.
But because it was really about,hey, what are the Soviets doing
right now?
Where are they doing it?
How are they amassing resources?
They didn't have the portfacilities that we had or the
(12:17):
alliances that we had, and stilldon't, nor do the Chinese, and
so that made them do kind ofunusual things.
And so when I was, you know,going through NROTC you know
that was the late eighties andbig time cold war and then I got
to I got, I basically had afront row seat to seeing, seeing
(12:40):
the military shift from thecold war muscles that had built
up to what we were calling atthe time asymmetric threats and
developing a new strategy thatthe Navy called From the Sea.
That was all about littoralwarfare and hey, how are we
going to use this vast servicethat we have to keep America
(13:03):
safe?
And so it was interesting to bethere at a time of transition
you know you speak of transition.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
10 years is a long time.
That's midway point you're likehuh yeah, do I stick it out or
do I do something else?
So now you're roughly what 2829 years old, maybe a little bit
older.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, I was.
I was right at the point ofgoing to my next C tour as a
lieutenant commander, and so ourmajor right before and at the
time, I was married.
I was married, I wanted to havechildren, and even adding to
(13:50):
that, because I had a lot oftechnical experience in
communications, just in theintelligence field.
You'll recall, back then theinternet was just blowing up and
I was pretty anxious to getgoing, to get going and and,
frankly, make some money.
So I got, I worked on my MBA atnight and decided to transition
out of the military.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Well, you say make money.
But there's another thing thatyou mentioned.
Back.
There is like you want to havea family.
Good luck having a family.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, you bet, and it was obvious to me at that at
that point in your life, jason,as you mentioned, at that age,
you know, you, you do have tomake those hard decisions and I
could see that, hey, to bereally, um, to be really, I
didn't want to be somebody thatwas going to be in per se 13
(14:41):
years because you're like you,you didn't quite make it a full
career, like it was a little toolong.
So I felt it was this kind ofcritical mass turning point
where, hey, if you want to havea family and develop a separate
career, this is the age whereyou have to do that.
Or you, you, you are veryserious about this career and
(15:02):
pursue it to its end and I havegosh, the, the vast majority of
the guys I served with did dothat.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
You know, when you think about it.
You know 10 years is it's thattransition point.
You know you can, and 13 yearsare like well, I might as well
just stay another seven.
Next thing, you know you're 40years old and how marketable are
you to move into the, into thecivilian world?
You know, and like you saidback then, 2000 was like the
cusp of the internet.
You know you're, you're rightthere.
(15:30):
That's when things are going tobe like just taken off.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, and I don't know.
You know, I can recall sittingat these sun micros and there
were the sun microsystems, theseworkstations, you know they
were big and fancy and this islike, uh, I guess like 1993.
So the internet was the thingwe called the information super
highway, that was going to comein the future.
(15:54):
But there I was looking atbrowsers and file sharing across
you know thousands andthousands of miles and um
imagery and all these kinds ofthings, and it's like look, I'm,
I'm, I'm no genius, but I got,I have a hunch here that this
technology is going to be very,very big and and was anxious to
(16:17):
to become a part of that in thecivilian side.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Now, did you have something lined up in the
civilian side, or did you justsaid hey, you know what boom I'm
going for it?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I did not have something lined up.
Well, you, you know the onething that that is nice about
transitioning out of themilitary and I have to say that
because this was the, the, thetweener years between the cold
war and the war on terror reallythe Navy was getting smaller
and so they did I thought, aremarkably good job for junior
(16:52):
officers like me who wanted totransition out of preparing you
for that.
So they taught you know, theybrought in civilian contractors
and things and said, hey, thisis how you interview for a job,
this is how you describe yourexperience, all those kinds of
things.
So I did not have somethinglined up, but then I felt like I
(17:12):
, you know I had, I had, I wasreasonably experienced for the
jobs I was going for in terms ofmaturity, and I didn't, I
didn't struggle to find a job incorporate America.
And then the strange thing is,two days after entering
corporate America, it's like youwere never in the Navy.
It's an entire different world.
(17:34):
And then you adapt and learnthose rules.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, talk about a different world, especially a
decade.
You know, three or four yearsyou still kind of have a
foothold into the civilian world.
But now you're 10 years in.
Now you transition into thecivilian world and now you get
the corporate gig.
Now let's fast forward to whenyou actually pulled up.
I was going to say when youpicked up the pen.
But when you sat down behindthe typewriter, behind the
(18:00):
keyboard, and said, hey, youknow what?
I have some creative juice inhere.
I really want to get this goingyeah, I am.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I made several.
Like I said, I was inspired umas a young man, both to go into
the navy but also to write,because the way that those that
that fiction um lived with me, Ijust thought it was cool and I
thought I would love to be partof that and learn how to do that
.
So I made a couple of attempts,you know, early on in my Navy
(18:31):
career, at writing fictionbecause I was like, look, you're
seeing so much interestingsource material, not necessarily
classified techno thriller, tomClancy stuff, but just just,
you know, moral dilemmas andstruggles and those kinds of
things.
So but I didn't really knowwhat I was doing and abandoned
all those efforts and then gotreally, really busy in the
(18:53):
corporate world and kind ofdidn't pick up the pen again
until, frankly, covid.
And when COVID happened, all ofa sudden I had extra time.
I've always been a morningperson and all of a sudden I had
all this extra time in themorning because the first call
would be at I don't know nineo'clock or something and I'd be
like well, I think I can, justfor fun, for something to do.
(19:14):
I was in prime video, I saw theway stories were put together.
I'd met screenwriters here andthere, and it taught me to sort
of analyze and break it down alittle bit more, a story like,
as you would, a screenplay.
(19:35):
And when I restarted thateffort I thought, well, all
right, I have this background inthe military and intelligence.
I can weave a compellingnational security story, as long
as I can get the mechanicsright, you know, and make it
pacey and do characterdevelopment.
Okay.
So so I sat down and did thatfor the first time, and for the
(19:55):
first time ever, it, it, itworked, it broke through and and
here I am, so I'm I'm super,super grateful for it.
I feel very lucky and, um, Ididn't necessarily know I had it
in me.
I know I wanted to have it inme, but now this is what I do
and I'm working every day to tryto get better at it.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Well, you know you said, now here you are, and I
mean Jack Ryan jr, Tom Clancy,that's, that's a heck.
That's a heck of a jump whenwe're talking like the COVID era
, and now all of a sudden you'repenning one of the top-selling
books, top-selling characters inthe world.
I mean Tom Clancy is knownthroughout the world through the
(20:37):
universe.
There's probably sent insignals somewhere.
I mean, really, he seriouslythat name is a brand and that
brand is incredibly a lot ofpressure.
You know penning your own booksand then all of a sudden you
get this thing where it's likeyou know what you ever hear of,
uh, of tom clancy, and you'relike, uh, yeah yeah it, um, it
(21:01):
is it first off.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It's an honor to be part of that.
And there are other legacyauthors, of course.
That came before me and I gotto know Don Bentley reasonably
well in you know, visiting downin Austin and stuff, and he was
the.
He was working on the juniorbooks and then he went off to do
the Vince Flynn books when KyleMills I think Kyle Mills
(21:26):
retired or he might be he justdidn't want to do the Flynn
books anymore and so when Donwent, there was this vacancy and
my editor called and asked meif I'd be interested in doing
this.
Of course it's a you knowexpletive, yeah, right.
And and I think it's you know,yeah, you spend about three
(21:47):
hours celebrating over a bourbonand then going oh man, how do I
do this?
Right, there is intensepressure and I think I feel a
tremendous responsibility to getthings right for the fans and
to provide service for the fansand fun for the fans of of this,
of this genre.
(22:07):
So it's certainly a huge honor,a lot, a lot, a lot of pressure
, but but just just a wonderfulexperience for me.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
This must've been really cool, taking on Clancy as
someone with your Navalintelligence background and with
your, I like to say big Navyyeah, you know, with your naval
intelligence background and withyour, I like to say big navy
yeah, you know your big navybackground.
And all of a sudden, now youhave to do the research, now you
have to put pen to paper.
Now you have to make thesecharacters work and make it one
thing we know about clancy's.
(22:38):
It's got to be realistic.
Yeah, people are going to beemailing you 10 years from now,
like I mean, you know, I've hadDon on before and those guys,
and it's just like, yeah, you'regoing to get these random
emails from someone's going toread something.
But now you have to plan thisbook out and you have to make it
on a global scale, because youknow we're not looking when you
(22:59):
think about Clancy.
You're not thinking, hey, we'regoing to do this in the state
of New Jersey, we're going to dothis worldwide.
So what was your first stepafter you had that burp and
you're like, ok, I need to mapthis thing out.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Well, it was basically to map it out.
The Clancy brand representsnational security, authentic
technology, authentic operationsand almost an existential
defense problem, or a bigdefense problem that needs to be
(23:36):
solved.
The Jack Ryan Jr books are alittle bit different than the
Jack Ryan Sr books in that JackRyan Sr is the president of the
United States, so he's goteverything at his command right
With Jr, and this is the way Iapproached it.
So I thought about the TomClancy brand, as I just
discussed.
I know that I couldn't be thesenior version.
(23:58):
I know that I couldn't be the,you know, the senior version.
I had to be the junior version,where you're effectively thrown
into the action, you're throwninto a scenario and you're you
have.
Jack.
Jr has enough context, givenwho his father is and his
background and the training thathe's had to recognize a threat,
but he's also close enough toit that he can do something
(24:20):
about it personally.
So I built a story that hitthose parameters and shared it
with my editor and said what doyou think?
And we talked through it andthen from that, basically I
built an outline and mapped itout.
But I thought a lot about whatyou're describing in terms of
honoring the brand.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
When you're thinking about branding and when you're
thinking about the tacticallevel as well.
And now we're going to bedealing with the strategic hey,
he's got his dad's the president, but he's going to be at the
tactical level.
The great thing about theinformation age now, and a great
thing about this author network, is that you can reach out to
people and you can find theright information, the right
equipment, the right techniques,techniques and procedures and
aren't going to be obviouslyblow any top secret stuff out
(25:02):
there, but you can reach out tothe network.
Did you use your network?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So so I know some specialforces operators who are, you
know, out now.
One of them was a friend ofmine that goes all the way back
to you know.
You know out now.
One of them was a friend ofmine that goes all the way back
to, you know, when we were 19and he ended up as a Sergeant
(25:29):
Major in Delta Force and retiredabout I don't know seven, eight
years ago.
So his knowledge was supercurrent.
And I think that when you, youknow, you picture an author like
they're going to act like ajournalist and they're going to
fly out and they're going tointerview a guy and they're
going to put a tape recorder onthe table and you're like man, I
don't have time for that, butin the age that we're in, you're
(25:49):
kind of in touch with peopleall the time.
You know it's not hard to stayin touch with people.
So a quick text message youknow what kind of scope would
you use in this case?
Right passage.
You know what kind of scopewould you use in this case,
right?
Or you know, do guys choose theHK416 or do they go with the
standard M4?
And you know, and then I learnall about.
Well, you know there's airpistons and gas pistons or
(26:12):
machine pistons, et cetera, andhave a whole discussion about it
, and so anytime I came acrossthings like that, yeah, the
internet can give you a quickanswer.
But then for a deeper answer,um, it's great to be able to
just just hit people reallyquickly.
I know a lot of ex pilots, um,et cetera, and so that that was.
That's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I think when you take on a Clancy, you need to have
that network.
One thing I've noticed you knowI've been geez.
You're going to be like episode500 or something.
So many of my interviews havebeen with authors and so many of
the authors that I intervieware really kind when it comes to
helping out other authors.
And you mentioned Don Bentley.
(26:52):
Don's another one of them whereyou'd be like, hey, Don, can
you help me out with this?
Sure, you know, it's like oneof those people where they're
not.
You know, back in our day.
I would say our day is like the70s, 80s, 90s.
It's like, you know, you wouldwrite a letter and you might get
a response.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I got to tell you a quick story and I'll let you
talk.
I remember when I was goingthrough ROTC I emailed Hackworth
the only email I had this wasback then and I said what kind
of advice do you have?
And he actually responded back.
Someone responded back and Iwish I still had access to that
email account.
It was like a Juno accountwhere I had his email.
(27:35):
I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
But nowadays like you said, it's like instantaneously
boom text.
Well, my story kind of likethat is when I was in ROTC.
I think I was a freshman.
When do you remember?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
the book the Flight of the Intruder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So I read that.
I love that book.
I love that it was a popularbook.
I was really really interestedin that stuff.
And so then, by the time, I'man intelligence officer I meant
I mentioned I went to an A6squadron and it was VA 196,
which happened to have beenStephen Kuntz's squadron, and uh
, and so he went on to have awriting career and so so when I
(28:17):
had my first book, my editor waslike, hey, is there anybody you
could reach out to for a blurb?
And I was like, well, I don'tknow Stephen Koontz, but I, you
know, I just I found his emailand I emailed him and and he was
like he was like normally I I'dsay no, but okay, send it to me
.
And he gave me.
You know, he, he, he reallyloved the book.
(28:38):
He actually called me.
He actually got on the phoneand called me back and was like
I want to talk about this.
And he's been.
I've communicated here and theresince then and I agree with you
, I was very surprised, cominginto this new, at just how kind
people are, at just how kindpeople are.
Bentley's another one where Ihad my deal.
(29:00):
I knew my editor was the sameeditor that Tom had, and I
basically found him on LinkedInand was like hey, do you want to
?
And he immediately got in touchwith me.
We spoke on the phone.
He gave me some early advice.
So, yeah, there's Mark Greeney,same thing, um so, so there's,
(29:22):
a really nice guy, um so sothese guys are, are, are.
are very generous with sharingthat kind of thing.
It's been a pleasant surprise.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yeah, it's so surprising man and I'm I'm just
really excited for this newgeneration and you know when I
really need to catch up on myclancy man, and you know what's
cool about is, I could actuallyjust start again.
Yeah, and listen.
I love audiobooks.
Man.
I commute to work in themorning.
I'm, I'm up at o dark 30.
I got about 30 minutes.
(29:51):
I'm just like boom, I knockthem out like it's nothing yeah,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I mean, when I got this gig I went back and, uh,
reread a couple of the olderClancy's and then, and then
caught up on.
I hadn't read all the Jack RyanJr novels but I went back and
read a bunch by Mike.
I had read Don's but I wentback and read the Mike Madden
books too and yeah, it's, it's,it's a lot of fun and for
somebody in my position it'scertainly.
(30:17):
I think it's required reading,it's certainly, it's certainly
helpful absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Shadow state comes out august 20th, correct?
That's going to be.
Where's your first stop goingto be?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
uh, first stops in seattle oh nice, yeah, very cool
.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Well, I appreciate you coming on.
Um, we you're.
I'm glad I didn't go down atangent.
I usually do, because oncesomeone mentions a gun you
mentioned the hk416 I startgoing off in these tangents
about oh, we need to go shootagain.
I do this with don andeverybody else.
I'm like yeah, what kind ofguns are we using here?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
yeah, so I mean, yeah , I can go for 30 minutes just
talking about guns well, uh,yeah, next time you do invite me
to go along shooting, because Iwrite about them.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I don't get to shoot all these exotic things all that
often, so oh my gosh as soon asas soon as we hit this end on a
record, I'll we're gonna besigning you up for a shooting
course, all right?
Well, everybody, make sure youcheck out.
Shadow state coming out august20th jack ryan jr.
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