November 21, 2024 • 49 mins
Frank Larkin, a prominent advocate for veterans and their families, joins us to unravel the pressing issues of brain trauma and veteran suicide. Through his personal journey, we explore the complex realities facing those who have served in conflict zones over the last two decades, highlighting the unseen wounds of post-traumatic stress disorder and moral injury. Frank candidly discusses his own heartbreaking loss, sharing the story of his son Ryan, a Navy SEAL, to underscore the stakes involved and the vital need for increased public awareness and comprehensive care.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey, welcome to the Protectors Podcast.
As usual, we started having aconversation before we hit
record and we were starting toget into really good topics.
Frank has so much to say todayand so much that I'm absolutely
behind his message.
And the message that we'regoing to be talking about today
is brain trauma, blast waves,veteran suicide and keeping this
in the public's consciousnessoverly over, as in Iraq and
(00:47):
Afghanistan and in Africa andbeyond.
But there are still soldiersout there, there are still
sailors, there are still Marinesout there, service members out
there right now on the frontlines, and they are also subject
to enemy and combatant fire andIEDs and explosions.
And there is.
We have 20-something years,frank, 20-something years worth
of wars, and we have20-something years, frank,
20-something years worth of warsand 20-something years worth of
(01:07):
soldiers, sailors, airmen,marines out there that have
suffered from so much, that arestill suffering to this day, and
we need to raise awareness tothis.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So, Frank Larkin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Thank you, Jason, Jason pleasure to be with you
and certainly have anopportunity to have a
conversation with your listenersabout these important areas
that continue to challenge oursociety and certainly our
veteran and first responderpopulation.
It's the whole.
I always lump everybody intothe protectors.
There are always protectors outthere no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I mean we're, you know you alluded to the fact
that we've been, you know, forthe past 20 years, you know, in
conflict and just because thewar is maybe over on paper,
they're not over for those thatare still suffering the
invisible wounds of thoseconflicts.
And it's, you know, the 20 plusyears of activity Iraq,
(02:34):
afghanistan, africa, otherpoints of conflict around the
world, let alone our owndomestic.
You know, fronts have left adebris field that will stretch
decades behind us and in oureffort to try to understand this
, and certainly the, you know,untenable rates of suicide that
(02:56):
we've been seeing in thesecommunities, it is creating a
real national security challengefor not only our military but
also for our first respondercadre.
And you know, every man andwoman that we lose to suicide or
to you know these conditions,and I describe invisible wounds
(03:21):
as those that really make upthis complex rubric of
post-traumatic stress disorder.
You know, from encountering,you know, some pretty nasty
stuff moral injury, which wedon't talk much about, and
(03:42):
that's really the you know weraise our kids to.
You know, value life, respecteach other, follow the rule of
law, and then you know that'snot necessarily how society.
You know, or or should I sayother parts of the world, you
know, look at life.
(04:02):
Other parts of the world, youknow, look at life.
And so a lot of these veterans,you know, come home and our
first responders from theirshift, you know, burdened with
these experiences.
You know things that they'veseen, seeing, things that
they've done and unfortunatelythey don't feel like they can
talk, you know, about theseexperiences with anyone, because
our society has become sojudgmental and it's quick to
(04:24):
label.
And then I'd say the thirdthing is that they're all in
pain, whether it's physical pain, emotional pain, spiritual pain
, and then they look to go numbthat pain and very often that's
when you see alcohol and other,whether it's prescription or
non-prescription drugs come into try to help them, you know,
get through their next shift, tohelp them kind of recover from,
(04:47):
you know, some of these badexperiences, or just their
effort to try to get to sleep atnight and not have nightmares
and other.
You know issues that you knowmost of our society is really
not, you know, confronting on adaily basis, not like these
folks are, as it comes aboutfrom exposure to our weapons
(05:10):
systems that have gotten morepowerful, more intimate in the
recent years, exposure tocontrolled explosives, we're
(05:35):
using a lot more breachingcharges to blow through doors
and walls and so forth.
Certainly that was the case inIraq, afghanistan, dealing with
the thick cloth walls and theseyou know tough alleys that we
had to navigate through.
And then, of course, the mainweapons system that our enemies
(05:57):
have employed against us werethese improvised explosive
devices, which you know wereresponsible for over 80% of the
casualties we saw in both ofthese formal conflicts.
So it, you know, it all comestogether into this rubrics,
rubric, cube.
You know that.
You know this Gordian knot thatwe're trying to unravel here
(06:19):
and really highlight that.
You know it's not all mentaland and that there may be a
biological injury.
You know, uh, that may beunderlying this, but we're very
much handicapped by the fact wecan't see it.
It sits at the microscopiclevel, beyond our current
medical technology, beyond ourimaging and blood markers to see
(06:41):
and qualify this.
So so, you know, as far as themedical enterprise goes, if they
don't see it in one of thesetests or on some imaging display
, it doesn't exist and therefore, that's when you start seeing
everything default towards apsychiatric, mental health
diagnosis, and that's usuallyfollowed by, you know, a stream
(07:03):
of drugs to control or deal withthe symptoms and other
behavioral issues.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Man, there's a lot to unpack here.
There is so much that goes onin our brain that's beyond just
the moral injury.
When you do bring up the blastwaves, you do bring up the um,
the ids, you bring up just abreaching, imagine your brain is
I mean, listen with there's a,there are concussion protocols,
(07:32):
for you know, my son's in highschool plays football.
There's always concussionprotocols, so some even just one
hit now when you're talkingabout your brain is exposed to
something that's even beyond theconcussion, something that's
going internalized through yourskull and just shocking your
brain, is exposed to somethingthat's even beyond the
concussion, something that'sgoing internalized through your
skull and just shocking yourbrain back and forth.
There has to be something thereit can't just be based on moral
(07:54):
injury that's causing thisdisruption in the brain.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
We focus on and as a paramedicthat's practiced or been
licensed for over 45 years, I'vedone it in the military.
I'm still practicing on thestreet in my city as a paramedic
to help them deal with theirparamedic shortage.
But I'm seeing this every daythat I work.
(08:35):
A shift Is that our currentmedical enterprise.
Were they knocked out?
How long were they knocked out?
You know how long were theyknocked out?
It's interesting I may get to anaccident scene where I have
somebody unconscious with anobvious head injury that by the
time we get them packaged up andmoved to the hospital they
(08:55):
regain consciousness and youknow they may not be totally
with it.
You know en route to thehospital.
You know en route to thehospital, and then we get them
into an emergency departmenttreatment bed and they fully
regain consciousness and theirawareness.
So I'm trying to then try toadvocate with the medical staff
there that, look, you have tounderstand what we found at the
(09:17):
scene.
You know this person wasunconscious or the forces that
they were subjected to aresubstantial that we need to pay
attention, that they may have anunderlying brain injury.
Well, again, the docs areprobably going to send them off
for an MRI or a CAT scan and ifthat comes back negative, they
kind of write that off, when infact they're maybe very and
(09:42):
based on the physics of whatthey've just went through, they
probably should have a braininjury.
But, it's not being qualifiedbecause we can't see it.
And so this parallels to notonly our military operations
that we've seen, where we'veassessed, at least during the
period of war and conflict, thatover 80% of this exposure came
(10:05):
in the training phases asopposed to combat.
Now it's probably about 100% ofthat exposure because we're not
in an active conflict for themost part.
And then same with lawenforcement and in our fire EMS
they're constantly beingsubjected to having their heads
(10:25):
rattled and as we see with theprofessional you know at least
football and some of theprofessional sports that have
gotten a lot of attention aboutthe CTE, the chronic traumatic
encephalopathy very much adifferent injury than the blast
(10:46):
exposure that we're talkingabout, but yet shares the same
challenge that we can't see itin a living person because it's
this injury is residing at themicroscopic level.
So we've got a long way to go.
We need to leverage the science, we need to do good science
that helps to inform on whatwe're dealing with and then be
(11:10):
able to navigate forward withappropriate treatment, because
right now we're shooting waybehind the target and I think
this is, you know, has a directconnection, in my opinion, to
the levels of suicide that we'reseeing in my opinion, to the
levels of suicide that we'reseeing, when you think about the
optics of this.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
So let's talk about the post-9-11 cancer.
We talked about the burn pits,myself having the particulate
matter in my lungs and having toget a scan every year, and just
a basic scan, and it's hard tocheck and see what's in your
lungs because it's somicroscopic.
Now you have such a largeaudience, you have the public
behind you, you have JohnStewart, you have everybody and
(11:50):
her brother talking about thetoxins that cause cancer from
9-11.
But now we have the long-termeffects of IEDs, of blast
exposure, that may not get thepublic's attention until it's
too late, and in a lot of casesit has already been too late.
Now how do we get this in thepublic's eye?
(12:10):
Now, I like the fact thatyou're involved with this
because you have the backgroundin it and we'll talk about your
personal background in it, butyour professional background.
You were in Iraq Was it Jaido?
Right In 2007 and plus, and Iwas there around the 2006
timeframe with CJ Sotiff andthere was so much counter-IED
(12:33):
action starting then.
In fact, one of my really goodbuddies that's been coming on
the show a lot is Daryl Hornbeck, who is retired EOD, and I've
seen that his friends and somany of his colleagues have been
devastated by IEDs and I don'tthink people could really factor
(12:54):
in the effect IEDs had backthen and have continued through
the war, because the war hasbeen.
You know, we've been away fromIraq for a long time as a mass
and we're not seeing theeveryday soldiers getting hit
and wounded by IEDs, but thosesame soldiers that were over
there a decade ago and plus arestill suffering from the effects
(13:17):
of the IEDs and explosions.
No-transcript have in one wayor the other been affected by
(13:49):
IEDs and explosive devices andbreaching and and gunfire and
small, uh, small unit gunfire Imean.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I think one of my greatest frustrations that I've
experienced is as we try topromote this discussion within
the Department of Defense andthe VA.
It's almost viewed as aPandora's box.
You know, do we really want toopen this up?
Which carries us back into thesame kind of track record of
dealing with, you know, agentOrange, the Gulf War syndrome.
(14:23):
You know, burn pits, now pits.
Now you hear about directedenergy.
My opinion is we have to hitthis head on.
If we stick our head in thesand, we're going to come back
to regret not aggressivelypursuing the answers on this.
I do believe that we can findthe answers and a better path
(14:48):
forward to protect the men andwomen that have stepped forward
and raised their hand to protectthis nation.
We're often going into harm'sway, but we've left too many
behind and that's unforgivable.
And it's not a point now in thediscussion that, oh, we didn't
know.
We do know.
(15:08):
Now we have a body of evidencethat is growing to the point
that now it's going to benegligence if they don't start.
You know, pursuing this, theseanswers, answers and one of the
things I I caveat my discussionsat the pentagon and with senior
(15:30):
leaders is look, nobody issaying that whatever solution we
come up with needs to affectour it can't affect our
operational effectiveness orlethality on the battlefield.
That's a fact.
We need, need these forces, weneed these capabilities, but
what we are saying is, let'sunderstand them.
(15:50):
And how can we engineer thetraining?
How can we engineer some of theoperations, whether outside the
combat environment, inside thecombat environment that buys
down this risk, to includebetter methodologies to monitor
this exposure?
You know we've got a lot ofbuilding now with data,
(16:17):
artificial intelligence, machinelearning, that we can start
sniffing out and identifyingthese patterns before they
actually allow an operator, awarrior or a first responder to
get into that danger zone.
(16:45):
That we believe them, becausevery often the system does not
listen to these folks when theycome forward, despite the fact
that you know this.
All the services and thesevarious components say, hey, if
you have a problem, please comeforward.
You know we're going to helpyou.
Well, unfortunately thatdoesn't always happen.
Uh, there's too many instancesof you know these folks stepping
forward where their issues areweaponized against them and then
(17:09):
, instead of a willingness tomove forward to get help, it
turns into an issue ofinstitutional betrayal where if
you can't contribute tooperations, then you're no good
to us.
So let's get rid of you andkick you to the curb, and
unfortunately that's stillhappening.
I think a lot of that'shappening because of ignorance.
(17:29):
They don't understand whatwe've just been talking about
here, and without some definedpathways, some validated
solutions, then they're going todefault to what they have done
in the past, and that is let'spass the problem on or let's,
(17:54):
you know, leave it behind, andthat's unforgivable.
That's part of the core ethosof anybody in uniform, whether
the military or first responder,is that we have sworn and
pledged that we would neverleave anybody behind, and we're
leaving too many.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
We take an oath of office.
Everybody does, even yoursenior leaders in the military
and in law enforcement and Ishould say, in the federal
government.
And you're bringing up a lot ofgood points and you know you're
retired Secret Service, you'vebeen in the federal government.
You're bringing up a lot ofgood points and you know you're
retired secret service.
You've been in the federalgovernment, you're military,
retired secret serviceContractor.
You've done so much in thegovernment that you understand
(18:34):
that if you raise your hand andyou say, hey, look, there's a
problem here, then someone's notgoing to get their SES bonus,
someone's not going to get theirnext star, someone may not go
from colonel to general, so theywant to just move these
problems to the side and push iton to the next person.
Well, we're going on decadesnow.
We can't push it on to the nextperson.
(18:55):
We need to take the fight intothe public side now and say, hey
, you know what, it's okay tocome forward.
But, like you said just now, inthe law enforcement community,
in certain departments you cancome forward and say, hey, you
know what, I'm having a toughtime.
I might have PTSD Just now.
And this is law enforcement'sbeen around forever Now military
(19:17):
, when you're trying to comeforward and you say I've got a
problem, well then you're notmission effective.
Here's some drugs, move on, getoff.
You're a number.
You're the mission effective.
Here's some drugs, move on, getoff.
You're a number.
You're the last four.
You know the last four years,social.
So to get to that point wheresenior leaders are going to take
the stand and push thatdirective down to the lowest
(19:38):
level because it has to be atthe absolute top.
So you have a new executivecoming in now, you have a new
cabinet coming in.
You have a new cabinet comingin.
You have new politicalappointees coming in.
They have four years to be likeokay, we need to tackle this
and have something set in place,set in stone, to where our
soldiers and service memberservice members can come forward
(19:59):
and say, hey, you know what,that last exercise we had where
we did a breach, I'm not feelingright man, and be able to come
forward without being missionineffective and be able to
address the issue and move it on.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, it's not weakness, I think, is what
you're saying.
It's really, you know.
It's how do we preserve thesewarriors and all this investment
that we've put into them andmaintain that unity and
integrity?
It's shifting the conversationaway from weakness to hey, this
(20:38):
is what we do.
And when you look and assesswhat we've asked these folks to
do, how could they not sustainsome injuries?
I mean, when you look at whatthey're doing in training, what
they're doing in just generaloperations, let alone combat,
you'd say holy cow, how couldyou not be injured or at least
(21:03):
have some consequence?
There's a great book that it'scalled the Body Keeps Score
through in life, where the body,you know you might think, oh
yeah, I got my belt wrong, Ifeel okay now.
Or you know I, you know I gotthis broken bone and it healed
up.
Or you know I've, you know, hadthis.
(21:23):
You know I COVID and okay, Idon't have it anymore.
Really, I mean, your body atsome point is keeping a tally
and, yeah, and because the humanbody is so resilient and has
tremendous ability to heal, ifyou allow it to heal and that's
(21:44):
the key thing If you allow yourbody to heal, it will heal.
Unfortunately, we're moving atsuch a speed and you know from
special operations, jason, evenlaw enforcement you know we get
on that bullet train and thatthing's moving so fast that you
know, yeah, you're gettingbanged up but you're not even
(22:04):
thinking about it because you'reon to the next mission or or
you're focused on you know, youknow, just you know that forward
momentum very often where westart seeing this manifest
itself is when you know, at somepoint, your body and this is
again not weakness, it can onlytake so much and it starts
(22:25):
forming, you know, these littlecracks in the foundation.
And and that's when, hopefully,we're shifting the conversation
to look, if you need help,let's get help.
Let's preserve you and youroperational contribution.
Let's recognize what you'vedone for us.
(22:45):
Let's do the right thing.
We're not going to kick you outof the tribe.
We're going to wrap our armsaround you.
We're going to help you healand we're going to get you back
into the fight, back into whatyou love doing, and if it's time
to kind of shift to somethingelse, we're going to help you do
that and respect the serviceand respect you know and honor
(23:08):
what you have done for us.
Unfortunately, we don't see alot of that happening.
I think it's starting to changea little bit.
But again it all goes back towhat you said earlier.
This is about leadership.
This sits squarely in theleadership box and as long as
we're in this posture of what Icall leadership by lawyer, where
(23:29):
we have kind of evolved intothis place where we have leaders
in title but they don't reallylead, you know all they're
trying to do is keep the lid onsomething and protect, you know,
their environments, theirindividual environments for
their next step.
You know they're just trying toget through this space onto the
(23:52):
next place without getting tooscarred or marked up with
anything that would slow theirpromotion potential or
opportunities down.
And then they won't make anydecision without talking to
their lawyers.
And this is where I get a casein the ass.
I mean, I used to tell mygeneral counsels hey, you have
(24:15):
no decision-making authorityhere, you don't approve shit.
All you do is provide me adviceand counsel.
It's up to me to make thatdecision and I'll carry that
load.
And if it's wrong, that's on me, I'll own it.
But there's going to be timeswhen you're going to advise me
to do one thing.
(24:35):
I'm not going to follow thatadvice, because I'm also getting
information from other placestoo.
I've got operationalimperatives, I've got timelines
that are just fleeting, you know, before our eyes.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So this is really about you know having, you know
that strength of character, thatcourage to make decisions
despite the fact that noteverybody might be happy with
your decision.
Frank, you know what I keptthinking while you're saying
that is ROE.
Who writes most of the ROE?
It's lawyers.
It's always lawyers that comeup with rules of engagement.
Now, when you brought up the,hey, you know what.
As a commander, you have yourintent.
You can hey, you know what, youcan use your lawyer's advice,
and this goes with the Fedgovernment too.
If you're an SES, you're alwaysgoing to have general counsel in
(25:24):
your pocket, or OPLA orwhatever you want to call them,
depending on the agency.
But now you have CONUS ROE, youhave CON.
Has ROE being written bylawyers who will say hey, you
know what, you don't want toengage with that topic.
You don't want to engage withthat topic.
Hey, you want to be athree-star, two-star, you want
to go from major to colonel, oryou want to go from captain to
(25:44):
major to colonel.
They're always relying on thelawyer, and the lawyer is making
the decision on whether or notthey should engage with someone
who's having an issue.
There are so many people outthere willing to talk and
discuss these topics, from theprivate all the way up to the
sergeant major, from thelieutenant all the way up to the
(26:04):
general, who want to talk aboutthis, but they're afraid that
they're either not even justupward progression.
They're afraid that theirlivelihood and their career and
basically, essentially, theirlife, will be over.
So to find someone who's goingto take that high ground and say
enough is enough, put theirfoot down and say we got to do
something about this, there hasgot to be someone that's going
(26:25):
to have their back.
And I think that's the nextthing we need to talk about is
ensuring that, if these peopledo come forward and do talk
about this and do make the rightdecisions, that they could do
it openly and freely.
And that includes the peoplewho want to come forward and say
my brain is feeling reallymessed up right now.
I need help.
So we have to have thoseprotocols in place as well.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I mean, this whole issue of an institutional
betrayal is getting sometraction and when you look at it
you know you have folks thatstep on the line, as I said
earlier, raise their right hand,you know, to be part of the
solution, to take care of theproblem.
And we saw that, I mean, andmassive numbers following 9-11,
(27:10):
where you know men and womenjust dropped what they were
doing, enlisted, gotcommissioned to get in the fight
.
You did it.
It's in our national DNA.
I hope it's still there becauseat times I question where we've
(27:30):
gone here recently.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Frank, it's still there.
You know, as someone who was anavy seal in the 1970s and
beyond, you remember what thethe vietnam war was like in the
70s and 80s.
But the only reason we see itnow is because we have social
media, and social media puts itright in our face.
But when you look at the actualfollowers and people are doing
this it's only a slight fractionof the country.
You know as well as I do andmost of the people that listen
(27:54):
to.
If you get off the highway andyou get into a small town, there
are still patriotic Americanswho want to step forward and
serve, and they will serve forthe right reasons.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Oh yeah, I just came back from Montana and Wyoming.
What a breath of fresh air Toget out of the DC Beltway where
everybody's got their nose.
Well, you got the visual.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
You know, frank, I know man, I live right outside
of DC and we both know there'sno grasp of reality here.
It's all about the next milliondollars, the next $2 million,
or the next promotion, or thenext, you know, ses, 15 bonus.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's to me I could give a rat's ass.
I mean titles never really.
You know that was never mydriver.
I mean, I've been at thoseranks that really you know me.
It's more about getting the jobdone and taking care of your
people, and I think for thoseleaders throughout history that
(29:03):
put their people first andsincerely did what they could to
look out for their people,without a doubt made the best
leaders, made the best leadersnot only from the perspective of
the people that worked for themor that they led, but
operationally they were moresuccessful across the board than
some leader that was a completetyrant and just had no regard
(29:28):
for their people and just usedthem in order to move on to the
next spot.
I think that you know we we dohave a lot of people that care
and you know one of the worstthings you can do to this nation
is poke it and assume that youknow we're asleep or we're not
(29:49):
paying attention.
And you know because you knowwhen that bear rises up, it's
it's gone for, it's gone forblood and it does not like to
lose.
So I think we as a nation havethe ability to deal with these
issues.
We, you know, we just need tokind of reprioritize some of the
(30:11):
things that we're doing.
I'm hoping that the newadministration comes on board
with recognizing the opportunitythat they have to deal with
some of the issues that we'retalking about here with regards
to our active duty, our veteranpopulation, because this is a
national security issue.
I mean, if this brain healththreat is substantial enough,
(30:39):
then that really challenges ourability to effectively
operateamedic firefighter.
They have the ability to makedecisions.
They can overcome and adaptright there on the edge.
(31:16):
You know.
They don't need to ask, youknow.
You know that you know, throughthe chain of command, if, if
they should, you know, redirecttheir, their fuel to fire or, or
, you know, point their hose ina different direction, or if
they should, you know,administer this drug or that
drug to save somebody's life,they do it right there at the
(31:37):
dirt level, right at the deckplate.
And that's what gives us andour ability to innovate on the
fly and adapt, gives us thatedge.
And if we lose that becausewe're not paying attention to
some of this brain health stuff,that which you know, as I said,
the growing body of evidence isshowing us that there's
something here that you know wehave to be aware of.
(31:58):
We can still operate in theseenvironments.
We just need to do it smarterand we really need to recognize
that.
You know we all have to be partof a tribe and that's kind of
how humans are.
You know we value ourmembership in different tribes.
You know whether it's amilitary unit, whether it's, you
(32:20):
know your.
You know your.
You know platoon.
You know at the fire station,you know whether it's.
You know a.
You know in the emergencydepartment with, with your team
of colleagues.
You know we're all part of atribe and and that tribe helps
to.
You know, qualify our purpose,qualify who we are and and and
(32:46):
why we're here.
And when you become separatedfrom that tribe, for whatever
reason, either you know ifyou're pushed out, if you're, if
you leave on bad terms, youknow again you should never
leave a job, you know with hate,hate in your, your head.
Or or even if you're justvoluntarily leaving, just
(33:07):
because you're moving to a newexperience that tribal
separation is is.
It's not easy and and as we'vetalked about with our veterans
and even our first responders asthey move across that line from
active duty to veteran statusor from active fire, ems, police
.
(33:28):
You know public servant statusinto retirement it's a very
vulnerable period, you know, one, two, three years out, where
you're trying to reset yourself,rebalance.
You know, learn a whole newvocabulary.
You know you're moving out intoa society that largely doesn't
understand the experiences thatyou've had, despite what they
see on TV, and so it becomesvery vulnerable for these men
(33:54):
and women.
And that's where you knowthey've got to kind of connect
up to another tribe and that'swhy I'm so grateful to these
veteran service organizationsthat are around because they
offer that tribal connection.
You know I try to encourage alot of our first responders and
others to kind of volunteer.
You know help coach.
You know a team sport you knowhelp.
(34:16):
You know mentor young kids.
You know be part of somethingelse and there is opportunity
out there.
It's just that you have tocreate that new adventure and
just not be afraid to moveforward.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
When you talk about the loneliness factor that comes
into it.
You know I retired from lawenforcement.
So after when I retired, thathit.
I think my I was close to 30years of combined service, If
you think about like active duty, national guard and 23 years in
law enforcement and not havinga mission next was one of the
toughest things for me.
You know hence why I reallypoured into doing like nonprofit
(34:49):
this and that I had to come upwith another mission.
I think that's imperative.
When you brought up somethingright now, it kind of clicked
Teach a sport, Do somethingwhere you're interacting with
other people, Build a new tribe.
It's imperative because yourbrain needs more than just
silence.
(35:10):
Sometimes you think, hey, youknow what?
There's all this silence.
I could just work through somethings, I could put some tunes
on, I could be good.
But at the end of the day, youneed something.
You need some sort of support.
99% of us cannot get away withjust being a hermit and walking
up into the mountains andgetting away with it and getting
out of it.
You need something, you need amission.
(35:32):
You need people around you, theyou also need the medical help
and you don't need a milliondifferent drugs trying to like
keep you solid and straight.
What you do is you need peoplethat are going to focus all
their efforts on helping you getsolid on solid ground, so you
(35:57):
don't take that next step.
That's a permanent one.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, and a lot of that comes down to listening.
Yeah, and a lot of that comesdown to listening.
You know the system.
You know, when somebody feelsthat they're not being listened
to, then they start to separate,they start to become
disenfranchised and,unfortunately, I think that's
(36:26):
what has, in part and parcel,led to, you know, some of the
challenges that we're seeingwith our veteran and first
responder communities.
It's folks like us, jason, thatare trying to change that
narrative, reduce those barriersof entry.
So we are living up to ourpromise that we'll take care of
them for the service that theyprovided us, a service that we
can never forget.
They gave it all for us and Iand I don't want to
(36:50):
overcharacterize that, but it'sreally true, um, you know, there
, there, there are things thatyou and I've done, jason, and
others that have been areprobably on the net here
listening that, even though oursociety, you know, doesn't
understand and probably will notunderstand, I think it's better
that they don't.
You know that some of them justhave not had the experiences
(37:13):
that we've had because you knowyou wouldn't want to wish them
on anybody else.
You know, and that's what we are.
You know we're the sheepdogsand you know we're, we're the
protectors.
You know we watch over the herdand and so, as the herd is kind
of doing their thing, and youknow interacting and you know
(37:36):
propagating to build the herdand all that and, and you know
moving in and out of theirstarbucks, uh, you venues, and
you know doing their thing.
You know the sheepdogs arewatching the perimeter and you
know the sheepdogs are kind ofscouts out, you know, trying to
see what's coming at the herd.
(37:56):
You know, from the next ridgeline and not playing goal line
defense, and you know that'skind of where we are with all
this is.
You know I, I part of a.
You know, you see, on my mynext to my name, warrior Call
it's.
It's really an effort to youknow, deputize those that have
(38:21):
been in uniform to reach out toothers that have served and also
, you know, expand that circleof you know impact to friends
and family that, hey, if youknow somebody that served in any
capacity, whether the military,first responder, whatever,
(38:43):
reach out to them, you know,make a call.
You know, hey, jason, reach outto them.
You know, make a call.
You know, hey, jason, hey, I,just you know.
I know we haven't talked inabout 10 years.
But I just came across yournumber, you know, I just said
what the hell, let me just givehim a call and and see how he's
doing.
And just you know it's, it'snot.
It's not other anything otherthan let's connect up and kind
(39:04):
of talk.
And it's amazing how many timeswe hear that somebody has been
in a bad place and, for whateverreason, whoever's sitting at
that master control panel wayabove us is pushing some buttons
, pulling some levers and saying, hey, I'm going to have Frank
call Jason.
Yeah, I got it.
They haven't talked in 10 years.
(39:25):
But let's see what happens.
And you know, all of a sudden Igot this, hey, there's this
number, I you know, and mycontacts said, hey, let me give
him a call and we connect and westart talking and we start
getting into stuff that we haddone years ago.
And of course we'll embellishit a little bit because it's,
(39:45):
you know, we, you know we haveto, you know one up, you know
our experience.
But but it's amazing how manytimes we get feedback from a
person that's in a bad place,and I'm talking about some real
dark places.
They've become disconnectedfrom their tribe, they've
they've, they've isolated, theyhave, you know, become angry.
(40:06):
They don't, they think they'reall alone, and then all of a
sudden, that call comes in andit pulls them, you know, right
back into the light.
It gets them, you know, itpulls them away from the edge,
and just, you know, it's, it's.
It's not a, it's not a wondercure, it's not.
(40:27):
It's just people being people,showing that they care about
each other, that they're notalone, that people really are
there to you know that you knoware experiencing many of the
same things, and that you knowwe have a greater chance of
success if we kind of movethrough things together.
(40:48):
And uh, and the other thing too,is the people that are making
the call.
We hear, more times than not,what good medicine that is for
that, you know.
So it's a two-way street and sohow, how easy is it just to
pick up the phone, make a callto anybody and just get the
(41:09):
conversation going.
And many times you hear hey, Ihaven't talked to this guy in 25
years, but man, when we got onthe phone it just seemed like
yesterday.
I mean that 25 years just wentlike this.
And so that's what Warrior Callis all about.
We're trying to make this akind of a national movement not
(41:30):
sponsored by any oneorganization, just a behavior
within our society not to forgetthose that have served us in
any uniform capacity, and justlet them know how much we
appreciate them.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, as you were talking, I went to the warriors
call website on my phone.
It's very easy to use.
You could pledge to callwarrior today.
Tells you how to make a call.
And you brought up some validpoints there.
Because one thing about theservice and this is the same
thing with protector community,but just in services like you
can call someone 15, 20, 30years later and it's like you
(42:07):
just talked to them.
Yesterday One of my NCOs was intown my first NCO when I was a
private Piccolo and he's likehey, let's get together for
lunch.
And as we got together forlunch, it seemed like I was just
in his section 30 years ago or25, 28 years ago.
It's like nothing.
I love it.
That's the great thing aboutservice is you build these
(42:28):
connections with people, and theconnections are what helps man.
And I tell people that all thetime just text someone, say hey,
what's up, and not just be like, hey, you okay, are you
suicidal?
Are you dark place?
No, just hey, what's up, it'snot that hard yeah, you know, um
.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know it's amazing how you come out of some of
those encounters and you justfeel like a ton of weights just
pulled off you.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
You know, it's just, it's really good medicine, it's
refreshing and nobody bustsother people, like veterans,
like you mentioned somethingabout.
Like you know, I want to throwsome Navy SEAL jokes out there,
but you know we'll get to thatanother day.
But you know what I mean.
It's always like the serviceand the branches we always have
(43:16):
something to really bust on eachother, but it's all in good fun
, but it's always somethingthat's positive.
You know you're building theserelationships you have.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
You'll never, never, ever have them anywhere else no,
and I think that's part of thestruggle when, during transition
, is that, um, you know, asfolks come out of that
environment, which you know it'sit's.
I think you would agree thatyou know some of your military
units, you know you build adynamic that's even closer than
your own blood family,especially if you've been in
(43:48):
combat with them and you'rethrough some tough, tough
experiences.
You just, you know, I know that.
You know I was up in New Yorkon 9-11.
And I know my Secret Servicecolleagues that went through
that experience with me.
I mean, we've got a bond thatyou know.
Hey, that was our experiencetogether.
(44:10):
We'll never forget that.
And I just ran into one of thoseyou know dudes, you know, a
couple weeks ago, and you knowwe barely had to say anything to
each other.
You know it was just just, youknow, an immediate transmission
of emotion, because you can't gothrough something like that and
(44:31):
not have it impact you and andstay with you forever.
And hopefully, what we'resaying is that those experiences
, sometimes as horrible as theyare, actually provide you
strength in the long run.
You know, if you can learn toovercome and get stronger as a
(44:52):
result of, you know, thoseexperiences, this that you know
as, as a good friend of mine,ken falk um, who you know runs,
you know runs.
You know Boulder Crest, youknow it's post-traumatic growth.
It's.
You know how do you understandwhat you've been through and use
(45:15):
that as a you know, a steppingstone just to get stronger and
more resilient and almost to thepoint where and I forget what
you know, maybe it was stripesand Bill Murray saying thank you
.
May I have another?
And unfortunately we're all alittle whacked out because we
(45:38):
get addicted to adventure.
We get addicted to solvingproblems and doing things that
are at times extreme, but youknow, never forget who you are
and and always have purpose.
Uh, and, like I said, some ofthe best advice I can give folks
(46:00):
, you know, when they're not ina good place, is hey, just get
outside, breathe the air and govolunteer and do something you
know, even if it's helping toyou know.
You know, pass out food tofolks that don't have the
ability to get food forthemselves.
You know, whether it's coachinga you know a little league team
(46:23):
, whether it whether it's justgoing to a retirement home and
having to sit down with a fewfolks, whatever you can do, some
of the greatest rewards comefrom those experiences where you
don't get paid financialremuneration it's, but you get
(46:46):
paid and just the goodwill ofdoing something for somebody
else.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
It's so true and it's simple.
It's not.
It doesn't have to be rocketscience.
Frank, I want everybody to goto warrior callorg.
Just make the pledge, I meanI'll do it.
I'm going to go towarriorcallorg.
Just make the pledge, I meanI'll do it.
I'm going to text some friendstonight.
I mean obviously it's going tobe sending them memes or
something else like that, orhowever you call it memes.
But it's simple as just makingcontact with someone and keeping
(47:18):
that foothold into their lifethat maybe they don't take that
next step, that maybe they'vejust been in the back of their
mind for a while and they don'ttake that next step, that maybe
there's just been in the back oftheir mind for a while and they
don't know how to get it out.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, jason, I just have to mention that the reason
I'm here is because seven and ahalf years ago I lost my Navy
SEAL son, ryan, to suicide,highly decorated SEAL operator
who took too many blasts to thehead, you know.
Just in service to this nation,I was extremely proud of him.
But you know, those demons gota hold of him and the system
(47:55):
didn't do the right thingbecause they didn't know what
they were dealing with andunfortunately he was, you know,
one of the many that fallthrough the cracks.
And so this is all aboutpreventing that from ever
happening again and havinganybody else walk that path of
pain.
So we can get to a better placeif we all kind of link arms and
(48:22):
do this together and keepreminding each other that we're
not alone.
There is hope, there are peoplethat are working on solutions
and you know for those that arelistening, to be part of that
solution and join the team.
So I want to thank you for theopportunity to come on have this
conversation.
Hey, if you ever need an oldguy to come on again to fill any
(48:45):
gaps, I'm here.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know what, Frank?
You should have never said that.
There's one thing I love doingis I love having co-hosts.
So I really expect you to be onsome more of these podcasts and
I do owe you a cup of coffeeright down the road from me.
But, Frank, I do want you tohave you come back on, because
one thing I've always learned inlife and in loss is that if you
say someone's name and yourson's name was ryan is if you
(49:08):
say their name when you telltheir story and you keep telling
their story, that their memorywill always be alive.
When you stop saying their nameis when their memory fades and
their sacrifice fades.
So I do thank you for coming onand I do want to tell his story
, but I want a complete episodeof telling his story and other
(49:30):
stories and and I do want youback on- you got it.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
Just tell me when and where.
Hey, welcome to the Protectors Podcast.
As usual, we started having aconversation before we hit
record and we were starting toget into really good topics.
Frank has so much to say todayand so much that I'm absolutely
behind his message.
And the message that we'regoing to be talking about today
is brain trauma, blast waves,veteran suicide and keeping this
in the public's consciousnessoverly over, as in Iraq and
(00:47):
Afghanistan and in Africa andbeyond.
But there are still soldiersout there, there are still
sailors, there are still Marinesout there, service members out
there right now on the frontlines, and they are also subject
to enemy and combatant fire andIEDs and explosions.
And there is.
We have 20-something years,frank, 20-something years worth
of wars, and we have20-something years, frank,
20-something years worth of warsand 20-something years worth of
(01:07):
soldiers, sailors, airmen,marines out there that have
suffered from so much, that arestill suffering to this day, and
we need to raise awareness tothis.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So, Frank Larkin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Thank you, Jason, Jason pleasure to be with you
and certainly have anopportunity to have a
conversation with your listenersabout these important areas
that continue to challenge oursociety and certainly our
veteran and first responderpopulation.
It's the whole.
I always lump everybody intothe protectors.
There are always protectors outthere no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I mean we're, you know you alluded to the fact
that we've been, you know, forthe past 20 years, you know, in
conflict and just because thewar is maybe over on paper,
they're not over for those thatare still suffering the
invisible wounds of thoseconflicts.
And it's, you know, the 20 plusyears of activity Iraq,
(02:34):
afghanistan, africa, otherpoints of conflict around the
world, let alone our owndomestic.
You know, fronts have left adebris field that will stretch
decades behind us and in oureffort to try to understand this
, and certainly the, you know,untenable rates of suicide that
(02:56):
we've been seeing in thesecommunities, it is creating a
real national security challengefor not only our military but
also for our first respondercadre.
And you know, every man andwoman that we lose to suicide or
to you know these conditions,and I describe invisible wounds
(03:21):
as those that really make upthis complex rubric of
post-traumatic stress disorder.
You know, from encountering,you know, some pretty nasty
stuff moral injury, which wedon't talk much about, and
(03:42):
that's really the you know weraise our kids to.
You know, value life, respecteach other, follow the rule of
law, and then you know that'snot necessarily how society.
You know, or or should I sayother parts of the world, you
know, look at life.
(04:02):
Other parts of the world, youknow, look at life.
And so a lot of these veterans,you know, come home and our
first responders from theirshift, you know, burdened with
these experiences.
You know things that they'veseen, seeing, things that
they've done and unfortunatelythey don't feel like they can
talk, you know, about theseexperiences with anyone, because
our society has become sojudgmental and it's quick to
(04:24):
label.
And then I'd say the thirdthing is that they're all in
pain, whether it's physical pain, emotional pain, spiritual pain
, and then they look to go numbthat pain and very often that's
when you see alcohol and other,whether it's prescription or
non-prescription drugs come into try to help them, you know,
get through their next shift, tohelp them kind of recover from,
(04:47):
you know, some of these badexperiences, or just their
effort to try to get to sleep atnight and not have nightmares
and other.
You know issues that you knowmost of our society is really
not, you know, confronting on adaily basis, not like these
folks are, as it comes aboutfrom exposure to our weapons
(05:10):
systems that have gotten morepowerful, more intimate in the
recent years, exposure tocontrolled explosives, we're
(05:35):
using a lot more breachingcharges to blow through doors
and walls and so forth.
Certainly that was the case inIraq, afghanistan, dealing with
the thick cloth walls and theseyou know tough alleys that we
had to navigate through.
And then, of course, the mainweapons system that our enemies
(05:57):
have employed against us werethese improvised explosive
devices, which you know wereresponsible for over 80% of the
casualties we saw in both ofthese formal conflicts.
So it, you know, it all comestogether into this rubrics,
rubric, cube.
You know that.
You know this Gordian knot thatwe're trying to unravel here
(06:19):
and really highlight that.
You know it's not all mentaland and that there may be a
biological injury.
You know, uh, that may beunderlying this, but we're very
much handicapped by the fact wecan't see it.
It sits at the microscopiclevel, beyond our current
medical technology, beyond ourimaging and blood markers to see
(06:41):
and qualify this.
So so, you know, as far as themedical enterprise goes, if they
don't see it in one of thesetests or on some imaging display
, it doesn't exist and therefore, that's when you start seeing
everything default towards apsychiatric, mental health
diagnosis, and that's usuallyfollowed by, you know, a stream
(07:03):
of drugs to control or deal withthe symptoms and other
behavioral issues.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Man, there's a lot to unpack here.
There is so much that goes onin our brain that's beyond just
the moral injury.
When you do bring up the blastwaves, you do bring up the um,
the ids, you bring up just abreaching, imagine your brain is
I mean, listen with there's a,there are concussion protocols,
(07:32):
for you know, my son's in highschool plays football.
There's always concussionprotocols, so some even just one
hit now when you're talkingabout your brain is exposed to
something that's even beyond theconcussion, something that's
going internalized through yourskull and just shocking your
brain, is exposed to somethingthat's even beyond the
concussion, something that'sgoing internalized through your
skull and just shocking yourbrain back and forth.
There has to be something thereit can't just be based on moral
(07:54):
injury that's causing thisdisruption in the brain.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
We focus on and as a paramedicthat's practiced or been
licensed for over 45 years, I'vedone it in the military.
I'm still practicing on thestreet in my city as a paramedic
to help them deal with theirparamedic shortage.
But I'm seeing this every daythat I work.
(08:35):
A shift Is that our currentmedical enterprise.
Were they knocked out?
How long were they knocked out?
You know how long were theyknocked out?
It's interesting I may get to anaccident scene where I have
somebody unconscious with anobvious head injury that by the
time we get them packaged up andmoved to the hospital they
(08:55):
regain consciousness and youknow they may not be totally
with it.
You know en route to thehospital.
You know en route to thehospital, and then we get them
into an emergency departmenttreatment bed and they fully
regain consciousness and theirawareness.
So I'm trying to then try toadvocate with the medical staff
there that, look, you have tounderstand what we found at the
(09:17):
scene.
You know this person wasunconscious or the forces that
they were subjected to aresubstantial that we need to pay
attention, that they may have anunderlying brain injury.
Well, again, the docs areprobably going to send them off
for an MRI or a CAT scan and ifthat comes back negative, they
kind of write that off, when infact they're maybe very and
(09:42):
based on the physics of whatthey've just went through, they
probably should have a braininjury.
But, it's not being qualifiedbecause we can't see it.
And so this parallels to notonly our military operations
that we've seen, where we'veassessed, at least during the
period of war and conflict, thatover 80% of this exposure came
(10:05):
in the training phases asopposed to combat.
Now it's probably about 100% ofthat exposure because we're not
in an active conflict for themost part.
And then same with lawenforcement and in our fire EMS
they're constantly beingsubjected to having their heads
(10:25):
rattled and as we see with theprofessional you know at least
football and some of theprofessional sports that have
gotten a lot of attention aboutthe CTE, the chronic traumatic
encephalopathy very much adifferent injury than the blast
(10:46):
exposure that we're talkingabout, but yet shares the same
challenge that we can't see itin a living person because it's
this injury is residing at themicroscopic level.
So we've got a long way to go.
We need to leverage the science, we need to do good science
that helps to inform on whatwe're dealing with and then be
(11:10):
able to navigate forward withappropriate treatment, because
right now we're shooting waybehind the target and I think
this is, you know, has a directconnection, in my opinion, to
the levels of suicide that we'reseeing in my opinion, to the
levels of suicide that we'reseeing, when you think about the
optics of this.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
So let's talk about the post-9-11 cancer.
We talked about the burn pits,myself having the particulate
matter in my lungs and having toget a scan every year, and just
a basic scan, and it's hard tocheck and see what's in your
lungs because it's somicroscopic.
Now you have such a largeaudience, you have the public
behind you, you have JohnStewart, you have everybody and
(11:50):
her brother talking about thetoxins that cause cancer from
9-11.
But now we have the long-termeffects of IEDs, of blast
exposure, that may not get thepublic's attention until it's
too late, and in a lot of casesit has already been too late.
Now how do we get this in thepublic's eye?
(12:10):
Now, I like the fact thatyou're involved with this
because you have the backgroundin it and we'll talk about your
personal background in it, butyour professional background.
You were in Iraq Was it Jaido?
Right In 2007 and plus, and Iwas there around the 2006
timeframe with CJ Sotiff andthere was so much counter-IED
(12:33):
action starting then.
In fact, one of my really goodbuddies that's been coming on
the show a lot is Daryl Hornbeck, who is retired EOD, and I've
seen that his friends and somany of his colleagues have been
devastated by IEDs and I don'tthink people could really factor
(12:54):
in the effect IEDs had backthen and have continued through
the war, because the war hasbeen.
You know, we've been away fromIraq for a long time as a mass
and we're not seeing theeveryday soldiers getting hit
and wounded by IEDs, but thosesame soldiers that were over
there a decade ago and plus arestill suffering from the effects
(13:17):
of the IEDs and explosions.
No-transcript have in one wayor the other been affected by
(13:49):
IEDs and explosive devices andbreaching and and gunfire and
small, uh, small unit gunfire Imean.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I think one of my greatest frustrations that I've
experienced is as we try topromote this discussion within
the Department of Defense andthe VA.
It's almost viewed as aPandora's box.
You know, do we really want toopen this up?
Which carries us back into thesame kind of track record of
dealing with, you know, agentOrange, the Gulf War syndrome.
(14:23):
You know, burn pits, now pits.
Now you hear about directedenergy.
My opinion is we have to hitthis head on.
If we stick our head in thesand, we're going to come back
to regret not aggressivelypursuing the answers on this.
I do believe that we can findthe answers and a better path
(14:48):
forward to protect the men andwomen that have stepped forward
and raised their hand to protectthis nation.
We're often going into harm'sway, but we've left too many
behind and that's unforgivable.
And it's not a point now in thediscussion that, oh, we didn't
know.
We do know.
(15:08):
Now we have a body of evidencethat is growing to the point
that now it's going to benegligence if they don't start.
You know, pursuing this, theseanswers, answers and one of the
things I I caveat my discussionsat the pentagon and with senior
(15:30):
leaders is look, nobody issaying that whatever solution we
come up with needs to affectour it can't affect our
operational effectiveness orlethality on the battlefield.
That's a fact.
We need, need these forces, weneed these capabilities, but
what we are saying is, let'sunderstand them.
(15:50):
And how can we engineer thetraining?
How can we engineer some of theoperations, whether outside the
combat environment, inside thecombat environment that buys
down this risk, to includebetter methodologies to monitor
this exposure?
You know we've got a lot ofbuilding now with data,
(16:17):
artificial intelligence, machinelearning, that we can start
sniffing out and identifyingthese patterns before they
actually allow an operator, awarrior or a first responder to
get into that danger zone.
(16:45):
That we believe them, becausevery often the system does not
listen to these folks when theycome forward, despite the fact
that you know this.
All the services and thesevarious components say, hey, if
you have a problem, please comeforward.
You know we're going to helpyou.
Well, unfortunately thatdoesn't always happen.
Uh, there's too many instancesof you know these folks stepping
forward where their issues areweaponized against them and then
(17:09):
, instead of a willingness tomove forward to get help, it
turns into an issue ofinstitutional betrayal where if
you can't contribute tooperations, then you're no good
to us.
So let's get rid of you andkick you to the curb, and
unfortunately that's stillhappening.
I think a lot of that'shappening because of ignorance.
(17:29):
They don't understand whatwe've just been talking about
here, and without some definedpathways, some validated
solutions, then they're going todefault to what they have done
in the past, and that is let'spass the problem on or let's,
(17:54):
you know, leave it behind, andthat's unforgivable.
That's part of the core ethosof anybody in uniform, whether
the military or first responder,is that we have sworn and
pledged that we would neverleave anybody behind, and we're
leaving too many.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
We take an oath of office.
Everybody does, even yoursenior leaders in the military
and in law enforcement and Ishould say, in the federal
government.
And you're bringing up a lot ofgood points and you know you're
retired Secret Service, you'vebeen in the federal government.
You're bringing up a lot ofgood points and you know you're
retired secret service.
You've been in the federalgovernment, you're military,
retired secret serviceContractor.
You've done so much in thegovernment that you understand
(18:34):
that if you raise your hand andyou say, hey, look, there's a
problem here, then someone's notgoing to get their SES bonus,
someone's not going to get theirnext star, someone may not go
from colonel to general, so theywant to just move these
problems to the side and push iton to the next person.
Well, we're going on decadesnow.
We can't push it on to the nextperson.
(18:55):
We need to take the fight intothe public side now and say, hey
, you know what, it's okay tocome forward.
But, like you said just now, inthe law enforcement community,
in certain departments you cancome forward and say, hey, you
know what, I'm having a toughtime.
I might have PTSD Just now.
And this is law enforcement'sbeen around forever Now military
(19:17):
, when you're trying to comeforward and you say I've got a
problem, well then you're notmission effective.
Here's some drugs, move on, getoff.
You're a number.
You're the mission effective.
Here's some drugs, move on, getoff.
You're a number.
You're the last four.
You know the last four years,social.
So to get to that point wheresenior leaders are going to take
the stand and push thatdirective down to the lowest
(19:38):
level because it has to be atthe absolute top.
So you have a new executivecoming in now, you have a new
cabinet coming in.
You have a new cabinet comingin.
You have new politicalappointees coming in.
They have four years to be likeokay, we need to tackle this
and have something set in place,set in stone, to where our
soldiers and service memberservice members can come forward
(19:59):
and say, hey, you know what,that last exercise we had where
we did a breach, I'm not feelingright man, and be able to come
forward without being missionineffective and be able to
address the issue and move it on.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, it's not weakness, I think, is what
you're saying.
It's really, you know.
It's how do we preserve thesewarriors and all this investment
that we've put into them andmaintain that unity and
integrity?
It's shifting the conversationaway from weakness to hey, this
(20:38):
is what we do.
And when you look and assesswhat we've asked these folks to
do, how could they not sustainsome injuries?
I mean, when you look at whatthey're doing in training, what
they're doing in just generaloperations, let alone combat,
you'd say holy cow, how couldyou not be injured or at least
(21:03):
have some consequence?
There's a great book that it'scalled the Body Keeps Score
through in life, where the body,you know you might think, oh
yeah, I got my belt wrong, Ifeel okay now.
Or you know I, you know I gotthis broken bone and it healed
up.
Or you know I've, you know, hadthis.
(21:23):
You know I COVID and okay, Idon't have it anymore.
Really, I mean, your body atsome point is keeping a tally
and, yeah, and because the humanbody is so resilient and has
tremendous ability to heal, ifyou allow it to heal and that's
(21:44):
the key thing If you allow yourbody to heal, it will heal.
Unfortunately, we're moving atsuch a speed and you know from
special operations, jason, evenlaw enforcement you know we get
on that bullet train and thatthing's moving so fast that you
know, yeah, you're gettingbanged up but you're not even
(22:04):
thinking about it because you'reon to the next mission or or
you're focused on you know, youknow, just you know that forward
momentum very often where westart seeing this manifest
itself is when you know, at somepoint, your body and this is
again not weakness, it can onlytake so much and it starts
(22:25):
forming, you know, these littlecracks in the foundation.
And and that's when, hopefully,we're shifting the conversation
to look, if you need help,let's get help.
Let's preserve you and youroperational contribution.
Let's recognize what you'vedone for us.
(22:45):
Let's do the right thing.
We're not going to kick you outof the tribe.
We're going to wrap our armsaround you.
We're going to help you healand we're going to get you back
into the fight, back into whatyou love doing, and if it's time
to kind of shift to somethingelse, we're going to help you do
that and respect the serviceand respect you know and honor
(23:08):
what you have done for us.
Unfortunately, we don't see alot of that happening.
I think it's starting to changea little bit.
But again it all goes back towhat you said earlier.
This is about leadership.
This sits squarely in theleadership box and as long as
we're in this posture of what Icall leadership by lawyer, where
(23:29):
we have kind of evolved intothis place where we have leaders
in title but they don't reallylead, you know all they're
trying to do is keep the lid onsomething and protect, you know,
their environments, theirindividual environments for
their next step.
You know they're just trying toget through this space onto the
(23:52):
next place without getting tooscarred or marked up with
anything that would slow theirpromotion potential or
opportunities down.
And then they won't make anydecision without talking to
their lawyers.
And this is where I get a casein the ass.
I mean, I used to tell mygeneral counsels hey, you have
(24:15):
no decision-making authorityhere, you don't approve shit.
All you do is provide me adviceand counsel.
It's up to me to make thatdecision and I'll carry that
load.
And if it's wrong, that's on me, I'll own it.
But there's going to be timeswhen you're going to advise me
to do one thing.
(24:35):
I'm not going to follow thatadvice, because I'm also getting
information from other placestoo.
I've got operationalimperatives, I've got timelines
that are just fleeting, you know, before our eyes.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So this is really about you know having, you know
that strength of character, thatcourage to make decisions
despite the fact that noteverybody might be happy with
your decision.
Frank, you know what I keptthinking while you're saying
that is ROE.
Who writes most of the ROE?
It's lawyers.
It's always lawyers that comeup with rules of engagement.
Now, when you brought up the,hey, you know what.
As a commander, you have yourintent.
You can hey, you know what, youcan use your lawyer's advice,
and this goes with the Fedgovernment too.
If you're an SES, you're alwaysgoing to have general counsel in
(25:24):
your pocket, or OPLA orwhatever you want to call them,
depending on the agency.
But now you have CONUS ROE, youhave CON.
Has ROE being written bylawyers who will say hey, you
know what, you don't want toengage with that topic.
You don't want to engage withthat topic.
Hey, you want to be athree-star, two-star, you want
to go from major to colonel, oryou want to go from captain to
(25:44):
major to colonel.
They're always relying on thelawyer, and the lawyer is making
the decision on whether or notthey should engage with someone
who's having an issue.
There are so many people outthere willing to talk and
discuss these topics, from theprivate all the way up to the
sergeant major, from thelieutenant all the way up to the
(26:04):
general, who want to talk aboutthis, but they're afraid that
they're either not even justupward progression.
They're afraid that theirlivelihood and their career and
basically, essentially, theirlife, will be over.
So to find someone who's goingto take that high ground and say
enough is enough, put theirfoot down and say we got to do
something about this, there hasgot to be someone that's going
(26:25):
to have their back.
And I think that's the nextthing we need to talk about is
ensuring that, if these peopledo come forward and do talk
about this and do make the rightdecisions, that they could do
it openly and freely.
And that includes the peoplewho want to come forward and say
my brain is feeling reallymessed up right now.
I need help.
So we have to have thoseprotocols in place as well.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I mean, this whole issue of an institutional
betrayal is getting sometraction and when you look at it
you know you have folks thatstep on the line, as I said
earlier, raise their right hand,you know, to be part of the
solution, to take care of theproblem.
And we saw that, I mean, andmassive numbers following 9-11,
(27:10):
where you know men and womenjust dropped what they were
doing, enlisted, gotcommissioned to get in the fight
.
You did it.
It's in our national DNA.
I hope it's still there becauseat times I question where we've
(27:30):
gone here recently.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Frank, it's still there.
You know, as someone who was anavy seal in the 1970s and
beyond, you remember what thethe vietnam war was like in the
70s and 80s.
But the only reason we see itnow is because we have social
media, and social media puts itright in our face.
But when you look at the actualfollowers and people are doing
this it's only a slight fractionof the country.
You know as well as I do andmost of the people that listen
(27:54):
to.
If you get off the highway andyou get into a small town, there
are still patriotic Americanswho want to step forward and
serve, and they will serve forthe right reasons.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Oh yeah, I just came back from Montana and Wyoming.
What a breath of fresh air Toget out of the DC Beltway where
everybody's got their nose.
Well, you got the visual.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
You know, frank, I know man, I live right outside
of DC and we both know there'sno grasp of reality here.
It's all about the next milliondollars, the next $2 million,
or the next promotion, or thenext, you know, ses, 15 bonus.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's to me I could give a rat's ass.
I mean titles never really.
You know that was never mydriver.
I mean, I've been at thoseranks that really you know me.
It's more about getting the jobdone and taking care of your
people, and I think for thoseleaders throughout history that
(29:03):
put their people first andsincerely did what they could to
look out for their people,without a doubt made the best
leaders, made the best leadersnot only from the perspective of
the people that worked for themor that they led, but
operationally they were moresuccessful across the board than
some leader that was a completetyrant and just had no regard
(29:28):
for their people and just usedthem in order to move on to the
next spot.
I think that you know we we dohave a lot of people that care
and you know one of the worstthings you can do to this nation
is poke it and assume that youknow we're asleep or we're not
(29:49):
paying attention.
And you know because you knowwhen that bear rises up, it's
it's gone for, it's gone forblood and it does not like to
lose.
So I think we as a nation havethe ability to deal with these
issues.
We, you know, we just need tokind of reprioritize some of the
(30:11):
things that we're doing.
I'm hoping that the newadministration comes on board
with recognizing the opportunitythat they have to deal with
some of the issues that we'retalking about here with regards
to our active duty, our veteranpopulation, because this is a
national security issue.
I mean, if this brain healththreat is substantial enough,
(30:39):
then that really challenges ourability to effectively
operateamedic firefighter.
They have the ability to makedecisions.
They can overcome and adaptright there on the edge.
(31:16):
You know.
They don't need to ask, youknow.
You know that you know, throughthe chain of command, if, if
they should, you know, redirecttheir, their fuel to fire or, or
, you know, point their hose ina different direction, or if
they should, you know,administer this drug or that
drug to save somebody's life,they do it right there at the
(31:37):
dirt level, right at the deckplate.
And that's what gives us andour ability to innovate on the
fly and adapt, gives us thatedge.
And if we lose that becausewe're not paying attention to
some of this brain health stuff,that which you know, as I said,
the growing body of evidence isshowing us that there's
something here that you know wehave to be aware of.
(31:58):
We can still operate in theseenvironments.
We just need to do it smarterand we really need to recognize
that.
You know we all have to be partof a tribe and that's kind of
how humans are.
You know we value ourmembership in different tribes.
You know whether it's amilitary unit, whether it's, you
(32:20):
know your.
You know your.
You know platoon.
You know at the fire station,you know whether it's.
You know a.
You know in the emergencydepartment with, with your team
of colleagues.
You know we're all part of atribe and and that tribe helps
to.
You know, qualify our purpose,qualify who we are and and and
(32:46):
why we're here.
And when you become separatedfrom that tribe, for whatever
reason, either you know ifyou're pushed out, if you're, if
you leave on bad terms, youknow again you should never
leave a job, you know with hate,hate in your, your head.
Or or even if you're justvoluntarily leaving, just
(33:07):
because you're moving to a newexperience that tribal
separation is is.
It's not easy and and as we'vetalked about with our veterans
and even our first responders asthey move across that line from
active duty to veteran statusor from active fire, ems, police
.
(33:28):
You know public servant statusinto retirement it's a very
vulnerable period, you know, one, two, three years out, where
you're trying to reset yourself,rebalance.
You know, learn a whole newvocabulary.
You know you're moving out intoa society that largely doesn't
understand the experiences thatyou've had, despite what they
see on TV, and so it becomesvery vulnerable for these men
(33:54):
and women.
And that's where you knowthey've got to kind of connect
up to another tribe and that'swhy I'm so grateful to these
veteran service organizationsthat are around because they
offer that tribal connection.
You know I try to encourage alot of our first responders and
others to kind of volunteer.
You know help coach.
You know a team sport you knowhelp.
(34:16):
You know mentor young kids.
You know be part of somethingelse and there is opportunity
out there.
It's just that you have tocreate that new adventure and
just not be afraid to moveforward.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
When you talk about the loneliness factor that comes
into it.
You know I retired from lawenforcement.
So after when I retired, thathit.
I think my I was close to 30years of combined service, If
you think about like active duty, national guard and 23 years in
law enforcement and not havinga mission next was one of the
toughest things for me.
You know hence why I reallypoured into doing like nonprofit
(34:49):
this and that I had to come upwith another mission.
I think that's imperative.
When you brought up somethingright now, it kind of clicked
Teach a sport, Do somethingwhere you're interacting with
other people, Build a new tribe.
It's imperative because yourbrain needs more than just
silence.
(35:10):
Sometimes you think, hey, youknow what?
There's all this silence.
I could just work through somethings, I could put some tunes
on, I could be good.
But at the end of the day, youneed something.
You need some sort of support.
99% of us cannot get away withjust being a hermit and walking
up into the mountains andgetting away with it and getting
out of it.
You need something, you need amission.
(35:32):
You need people around you, theyou also need the medical help
and you don't need a milliondifferent drugs trying to like
keep you solid and straight.
What you do is you need peoplethat are going to focus all
their efforts on helping you getsolid on solid ground, so you
(35:57):
don't take that next step.
That's a permanent one.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, and a lot of that comes down to listening.
Yeah, and a lot of that comesdown to listening.
You know the system.
You know, when somebody feelsthat they're not being listened
to, then they start to separate,they start to become
disenfranchised and,unfortunately, I think that's
(36:26):
what has, in part and parcel,led to, you know, some of the
challenges that we're seeingwith our veteran and first
responder communities.
It's folks like us, jason, thatare trying to change that
narrative, reduce those barriersof entry.
So we are living up to ourpromise that we'll take care of
them for the service that theyprovided us, a service that we
can never forget.
They gave it all for us and Iand I don't want to
(36:50):
overcharacterize that, but it'sreally true, um, you know, there
, there, there are things thatyou and I've done, jason, and
others that have been areprobably on the net here
listening that, even though oursociety, you know, doesn't
understand and probably will notunderstand, I think it's better
that they don't.
You know that some of them justhave not had the experiences
(37:13):
that we've had because you knowyou wouldn't want to wish them
on anybody else.
You know, and that's what we are.
You know we're the sheepdogsand you know we're, we're the
protectors.
You know we watch over the herdand and so, as the herd is kind
of doing their thing, and youknow interacting and you know
(37:36):
propagating to build the herdand all that and, and you know
moving in and out of theirstarbucks, uh, you venues, and
you know doing their thing.
You know the sheepdogs arewatching the perimeter and you
know the sheepdogs are kind ofscouts out, you know, trying to
see what's coming at the herd.
(37:56):
You know, from the next ridgeline and not playing goal line
defense, and you know that'skind of where we are with all
this is.
You know I, I part of a.
You know, you see, on my mynext to my name, warrior Call
it's.
It's really an effort to youknow, deputize those that have
(38:21):
been in uniform to reach out toothers that have served and also
, you know, expand that circleof you know impact to friends
and family that, hey, if youknow somebody that served in any
capacity, whether the military,first responder, whatever,
(38:43):
reach out to them, you know,make a call.
You know, hey, jason, reach outto them.
You know, make a call.
You know, hey, jason, hey, I,just you know.
I know we haven't talked inabout 10 years.
But I just came across yournumber, you know, I just said
what the hell, let me just givehim a call and and see how he's
doing.
And just you know it's, it'snot.
It's not other anything otherthan let's connect up and kind
(39:04):
of talk.
And it's amazing how many timeswe hear that somebody has been
in a bad place and, for whateverreason, whoever's sitting at
that master control panel wayabove us is pushing some buttons
, pulling some levers and saying, hey, I'm going to have Frank
call Jason.
Yeah, I got it.
They haven't talked in 10 years.
(39:25):
But let's see what happens.
And you know, all of a sudden Igot this, hey, there's this
number, I you know, and mycontacts said, hey, let me give
him a call and we connect and westart talking and we start
getting into stuff that we haddone years ago.
And of course we'll embellishit a little bit because it's,
(39:45):
you know, we, you know we haveto, you know one up, you know
our experience.
But but it's amazing how manytimes we get feedback from a
person that's in a bad place,and I'm talking about some real
dark places.
They've become disconnectedfrom their tribe, they've
they've, they've isolated, theyhave, you know, become angry.
(40:06):
They don't, they think they'reall alone, and then all of a
sudden, that call comes in andit pulls them, you know, right
back into the light.
It gets them, you know, itpulls them away from the edge,
and just, you know, it's, it's.
It's not a, it's not a wondercure, it's not.
(40:27):
It's just people being people,showing that they care about
each other, that they're notalone, that people really are
there to you know that you knoware experiencing many of the
same things, and that you knowwe have a greater chance of
success if we kind of movethrough things together.
(40:48):
And uh, and the other thing too,is the people that are making
the call.
We hear, more times than not,what good medicine that is for
that, you know.
So it's a two-way street and sohow, how easy is it just to
pick up the phone, make a callto anybody and just get the
(41:09):
conversation going.
And many times you hear hey, Ihaven't talked to this guy in 25
years, but man, when we got onthe phone it just seemed like
yesterday.
I mean that 25 years just wentlike this.
And so that's what Warrior Callis all about.
We're trying to make this akind of a national movement not
(41:30):
sponsored by any oneorganization, just a behavior
within our society not to forgetthose that have served us in
any uniform capacity, and justlet them know how much we
appreciate them.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, as you were talking, I went to the warriors
call website on my phone.
It's very easy to use.
You could pledge to callwarrior today.
Tells you how to make a call.
And you brought up some validpoints there.
Because one thing about theservice and this is the same
thing with protector community,but just in services like you
can call someone 15, 20, 30years later and it's like you
(42:07):
just talked to them.
Yesterday One of my NCOs was intown my first NCO when I was a
private Piccolo and he's likehey, let's get together for
lunch.
And as we got together forlunch, it seemed like I was just
in his section 30 years ago or25, 28 years ago.
It's like nothing.
I love it.
That's the great thing aboutservice is you build these
(42:28):
connections with people, and theconnections are what helps man.
And I tell people that all thetime just text someone, say hey,
what's up, and not just be like, hey, you okay, are you
suicidal?
Are you dark place?
No, just hey, what's up, it'snot that hard yeah, you know, um
.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know it's amazing how you come out of some of
those encounters and you justfeel like a ton of weights just
pulled off you.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
You know, it's just, it's really good medicine, it's
refreshing and nobody bustsother people, like veterans,
like you mentioned somethingabout.
Like you know, I want to throwsome Navy SEAL jokes out there,
but you know we'll get to thatanother day.
But you know what I mean.
It's always like the serviceand the branches we always have
(43:16):
something to really bust on eachother, but it's all in good fun
, but it's always somethingthat's positive.
You know you're building theserelationships you have.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
You'll never, never, ever have them anywhere else no,
and I think that's part of thestruggle when, during transition
, is that, um, you know, asfolks come out of that
environment, which you know it'sit's.
I think you would agree thatyou know some of your military
units, you know you build adynamic that's even closer than
your own blood family,especially if you've been in
(43:48):
combat with them and you'rethrough some tough, tough
experiences.
You just, you know, I know that.
You know I was up in New Yorkon 9-11.
And I know my Secret Servicecolleagues that went through
that experience with me.
I mean, we've got a bond thatyou know.
Hey, that was our experiencetogether.
(44:10):
We'll never forget that.
And I just ran into one of thoseyou know dudes, you know, a
couple weeks ago, and you knowwe barely had to say anything to
each other.
You know it was just just, youknow, an immediate transmission
of emotion, because you can't gothrough something like that and
(44:31):
not have it impact you and andstay with you forever.
And hopefully, what we'resaying is that those experiences
, sometimes as horrible as theyare, actually provide you
strength in the long run.
You know, if you can learn toovercome and get stronger as a
(44:52):
result of, you know, thoseexperiences, this that you know
as, as a good friend of mine,ken falk um, who you know runs,
you know runs.
You know Boulder Crest, youknow it's post-traumatic growth.
It's.
You know how do you understandwhat you've been through and use
(45:15):
that as a you know, a steppingstone just to get stronger and
more resilient and almost to thepoint where and I forget what
you know, maybe it was stripesand Bill Murray saying thank you
.
May I have another?
And unfortunately we're all alittle whacked out because we
(45:38):
get addicted to adventure.
We get addicted to solvingproblems and doing things that
are at times extreme, but youknow, never forget who you are
and and always have purpose.
Uh, and, like I said, some ofthe best advice I can give folks
(46:00):
, you know, when they're not ina good place, is hey, just get
outside, breathe the air and govolunteer and do something you
know, even if it's helping toyou know.
You know, pass out food tofolks that don't have the
ability to get food forthemselves.
You know, whether it's coachinga you know a little league team
(46:23):
, whether it whether it's justgoing to a retirement home and
having to sit down with a fewfolks, whatever you can do, some
of the greatest rewards comefrom those experiences where you
don't get paid financialremuneration it's, but you get
(46:46):
paid and just the goodwill ofdoing something for somebody
else.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
It's so true and it's simple.
It's not.
It doesn't have to be rocketscience.
Frank, I want everybody to goto warrior callorg.
Just make the pledge, I meanI'll do it.
I'm going to go towarriorcallorg.
Just make the pledge, I meanI'll do it.
I'm going to text some friendstonight.
I mean obviously it's going tobe sending them memes or
something else like that, orhowever you call it memes.
But it's simple as just makingcontact with someone and keeping
(47:18):
that foothold into their lifethat maybe they don't take that
next step, that maybe they'vejust been in the back of their
mind for a while and they don'ttake that next step, that maybe
there's just been in the back oftheir mind for a while and they
don't know how to get it out.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, jason, I just have to mention that the reason
I'm here is because seven and ahalf years ago I lost my Navy
SEAL son, ryan, to suicide,highly decorated SEAL operator
who took too many blasts to thehead, you know.
Just in service to this nation,I was extremely proud of him.
But you know, those demons gota hold of him and the system
(47:55):
didn't do the right thingbecause they didn't know what
they were dealing with andunfortunately he was, you know,
one of the many that fallthrough the cracks.
And so this is all aboutpreventing that from ever
happening again and havinganybody else walk that path of
pain.
So we can get to a better placeif we all kind of link arms and
(48:22):
do this together and keepreminding each other that we're
not alone.
There is hope, there are peoplethat are working on solutions
and you know for those that arelistening, to be part of that
solution and join the team.
So I want to thank you for theopportunity to come on have this
conversation.
Hey, if you ever need an oldguy to come on again to fill any
(48:45):
gaps, I'm here.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know what, Frank?
You should have never said that.
There's one thing I love doingis I love having co-hosts.
So I really expect you to be onsome more of these podcasts and
I do owe you a cup of coffeeright down the road from me.
But, Frank, I do want you tohave you come back on, because
one thing I've always learned inlife and in loss is that if you
say someone's name and yourson's name was ryan is if you
(49:08):
say their name when you telltheir story and you keep telling
their story, that their memorywill always be alive.
When you stop saying their nameis when their memory fades and
their sacrifice fades.
So I do thank you for coming onand I do want to tell his story
, but I want a complete episodeof telling his story and other
(49:30):
stories and and I do want youback on- you got it.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
Just tell me when and where.
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