520 | Brent Cartwright | NOTE *Sensitive Topics Covered (Suicide & Addiction)* - The Protectors® Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
yeah, brent, sometimes what we have to do is
just hit record.
Hey, welcome to the protectorspodcast.
I have brent cartwright ontoday.
Brent has a very, veryinteresting career path
background a lot of a lot ofsimilarities but a lot of
differences.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
But hey, brent, welcome to the show brother hey,
uh, you know, jason, appreciateyou having me.
Man, this is, uh, it's an honor.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you so much you know we were just like you hit
on a little bit for the holidays.
You went back to asheville,north carolina, and you think
about like just how hammeredthat area got, but it's not in
the media anymore.
It's like nowhere in the mediacan you find, unless it's local
news, but you can't findanything going on about, like
you know, north Carolina andrecovery it.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, it fell off the map pretty quick.
Um, obviously the election cameup and you know things got
killed off of that.
Uh, you know the new focus, butI mean, yeah, it was that a
little.
You know B things got killedoff of that.
You know the new focus, but Imean, yeah, it was that little.
You know, biltmore Village areais still just completely vacant
.
I mean, their water levels were15 foot above the doors and
windows and all the.
You know it's a big hikingcommunity, so every all the half
the trails are still closed out.

(01:17):
I mean it's a safety issue.
Right, the trees like blew overfrom the root balls, not even
just snapping.
So, um, you know getting outthere with some chainsaws and
help cutting some of the area up, um, I mean it's a mess.
It's still an absolute mess.
A lot of the roads are stillclosed.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's hard to even get around yeah and imagine, like,
think about like a road up theregetting washed out and how much
like infrastructure you wouldneed to like go and rebuild in
order to get a road, becausewe're you know a lot of people
they always like, when you drivedown the highways you think you
know, get us to throw a newhighway up.
You could divert it and stuff,when you're talking mountainous
regions trying to put a new roadin.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
And they're the last ones to get the attention, man,
because they're stuck.
I mean Asheville already is.
You know, their internalinfrastructure for the roads are
over capacity as it is.
They've just blown uppopulation-wise but they're
trying to get that stuff open upin the downtown area and the
early suburbs.
So when you get out into themountains just to get the

(02:17):
equipment up, everybody had tochainsaw their way out you drive
down the road, bring yourchainsaw.
I have to cut out the trees andhelp move them off.
But I mean some of these treesare.
Even if you cut a four footsection, the thing weighs 800
pounds.
So I mean you get an old guy orold lady.
I mean how the heck are theygoing to get their car through?
So it's it's.
It's crazy to think about.

(02:39):
You know, in such a modern area, I mean even when you get up in
the mountains, it's a littledifferent.
It's so crazy to think abouthow long it's taken.
This is three months ago andit's still bad.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
One of my friends lives out that way.
What they did was they thoughtabout doing a nonprofit or just
helping out individual families.
Everybody wants to be like youknow what I'll just give, give
money to red cross, I'll givemoney to these big organizations
.
But you know you haveindividual families who you know
for the lack of better termsare they're, they're forgotten,

(03:16):
you know.
So if you look what their, whattheir idea was like, hey, you
go into a community and you linkup with the schools or some
other organizations that knowwho's affected, and then what
you do is you like, you kind oflike marry up with a family, so
you're almost like sponsoring afamily yeah because so many
people need little things.

(03:36):
I mean, you know, when you startover again, it's, it's
everything.
It's like pots and pans, it'sclothes, it's literally think
about little things, even like asalt and pepper shaker man, it
is literally you have to rebuildfrom start.
No-transcript.

(04:30):
You know, you, you and I I meana lot of people we put
everything on digital nowadays,but is it uploaded to a cloud?
But, like, think about familypictures, man?
And then they were like hey,you know what, you're an amateur
photographer, you know a bunchof other amateur photographers.
What if you just roll out thereI mean, after the dust settles
we're talking like spring and belike hey, look, put on little

(04:52):
things like photo sessions, geta hold of a local VFW or
something to set up in there atthe hall and have people come by
and just do family photos,Little things where people just
lost everything.
But they lost memories too.
So now, like, that big familypicture on the wall is gone.
So maybe you try to recreatethings.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, that's a fortunate my wife.
She's the one that hammered theliving crap out of me to get
our stuff and turn our stuff youknow things like that into the
digital platform, and if itwasn't for her, I would still
have my boxes of old pictures,my undercover photos and all the
crazy stuff.
Uh were things that you knowwe're taking on the old point

(05:34):
and shoot, click.
Uh, you know $25 job.
Uh, you know disposable camera.
So, um, yeah, that's.
You know that is a problem.
You can't replace the memoryand that's, and you got the
memory in your head.
But I mean, I mean just beyondpictures and heirlooms and
everything else, I mean it's,it's just, it's just devastating
.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
It makes you want to live a simple life.
You know it does.
It makes you want to be able tolike fluid.
It's like I.
That's one thing I loved aboutheat.
You know that movie heat withum albacino and val kilmer and
everybody's like you know yougot to be able to like, just
leave in 30 seconds flat.
I mean I'm not saying like afamily man or people in general,
but maybe sometimes a simplelife isn't that bad yeah, now

(06:18):
you're talking my language, theuc man I've got Everybody's got
to have a go bag boogie.
Now, when'd you join the armyman?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Uh, 1996.
Uh, it was.
I mean, that was on the delayedentry program.
And then that was, uh, I gotinto basic training right after
I graduated high school.
So, yeah, like early on I Ilooked at it as a way I'm going
to pay for college.
So my parents did the best theycould to save some money for us
for college.
But it was just so expensive.

(06:48):
And, yeah, man, I have abrother and a sister, so three
kids trying to save for collegefor that, oh, good luck.
But I'm also from a militaryfamily.
So my brother joined up rightafter the first Gulf War, my dad
was in the Army during vietnamand both my grandpa's uh world
war ii vets.
So I mean it was a legacy thing.

(07:09):
But really I was looking atfocus, like, hey, I'm gonna pay
for college and that's.
That's kind of where I wentwith.
Uh, you know my motivation,main motivate.
I mean I want to serve.
I mean obviously, uh, policework too.
I mean I had a call to serve.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
So I think a lot you know, especially when you come
from a military family.
You kind of have this like, Imean, you know, even if I just
do it for three, four or fiveyears, but uh, you have this
like thing where it's like hey,dad was in nam man, and you know
, you're like, probably you're alittle bit younger to me,
probably a little bit, but youknow you grew up with nam.
Like the 1980s and 90s werelike on, like the non-vets were

(07:43):
still like the action heroeslike rambo, mel gibson and uh,
lethal weapon, all sorts ofstuff like that.
And you think about it.
You're like, well, you know, ifthey did it and dad did it, I
better do something, becausedad's gonna be like ah, you
draft dodger you know, I thinkmy dad would have been pretty
cool if I didn't.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
He wouldn't have hammered me too bad, uh.
But uh, I I know they're proudof me anyway, but my grandpa,
yeah, he would have probablygrabbed me by the neck and you
know, because he joined up whenhe my grandpa, my mom's side he
joined up, lied about his age.
He was one of those guysbecause he was a little bit
younger, so the European stuffwas winding down, but he went

(08:23):
over and did the Pacific.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
So you know, I would love a book or a documentary on
how many.
I mean you're never going to beable to figure it out, but the
stories about how many kids liedat their age, you know, can you
like?
My son is literally 16 and ahalf right now and I think about
him lying about his age to gofight in the Pacific and I'm
like holy, you know, I just Ican't imagine it.

(08:45):
But I mean I had to bedifferent times back then where
you're like you know what I'mgoing.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, where the people that tried to sign up and
they got rejected for healthreasons and they killed
themselves.
I mean that was a thing likeyou, that it was that serious.
So that was just a crazy time.
And you know, you knew thefighting in those wars.
I mean not that you knowAfghanistan and Iraq and you
know Gulf War and Vietnam.
They all have their terrors.

(09:11):
But man, if you look at stuffin the Pacific, I mean the way
that we had to fight those warswas just different technologies
and just sending waves of people.
That just is a crazy thing.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Think about your knowledge base.
So you got to imagine, likeworld war like I mean, we're
thinking like nowadays frames,world war one would have been
about like aren't like desertstorm, almost right, a little
bit close to that.
And then you, so we all knowwhat happened in desert storm,
even if there were, like thenews and all the other stuff we
there was no social media backthen, but we know, and you know

(09:44):
it could have been rough.
But let's say you're a kid,you're 16.
The European conflict was hell,and now you've got the Pacific
conflict.
But you know what happened inWorld War I and you know war is
literally hell.
You know if you enlist that forone, you're going to be on a

(10:04):
damn boat and you never know ifyou're going to get sunk by a
sub or kamikazes or anything.
But you know you're going to begoing to hell, make literal
hell like hell on earth.
And you know, when you see the,the shell shock, and you see,
and you and remember you'restill around around guys that
came back from World War I youknow, and you're missing limbs.

(10:27):
But then you're like damn man,I'm going to be 16 and a half
and I'm going to go.
And nowadays like 16 and a half.
Like you know, the kids areplaying Fortnite or whatever the
hell they're doing, playingCall of Duty.
But then I'm like I'm not goingto damn Europe.
I mean, seriously, I don't evenwant to leave the house.
I know, thank God I have goodkids, but still, I mean, you

(10:48):
think about it.
So you joined the Army.
What was your MOS?

Speaker 2 (10:51):
13.
Bravo, man, I did the.
It's funny.
I called the recruiter up and Ithis is the worst advice I
could ever give anybody, sodon't do what I did.
I just called and said hey, isthere something that has a big
assigning bonus?
Like, stick me in that job?
Yeah.
And they're like oh yeah, it'stwenty five hundred dollars,
which you know at seventeen anda half that's a lot of dang

(11:13):
money they don't tell you.
You get half of it, you know,upon completion of basic
training, and then, three yearslater, we'll give you the other
half yeah, three, and we'll taxit at 40, 500 bucks.
You know, get $800 total.
So I, yeah, they, you knowobviously the recruiter, I doubt
there, I didn't even ask orthere's different signing
bonuses.
They just came out and said 13,bravo, that's what we have.

(11:36):
Well, I man, I was a in highschool, I was a cross country
and track runner, little guy.
So pretty quick, you know, youknow nothing spectacular.
I was running the 430 for amile and I'd run, you know, 16
minutes for a 5k, so, but Iweighed 109 pounds, like there's
a minimum to get into themilitary.
I barely made the minimumweight, uh, and they're like

(11:58):
okay, so now you're gonna beshucking he shells which weigh
102 pounds each on this towedunit.
I'm like this is an absolute.
I mean the hymn it would comeby.
The big guys are carrying ashell on each shoulder.
I'm like, yeah, I'll just takeone shell, you'll take the
charge bag, I'll take the chargecanisters.
So yeah, that was a big mistake, number one, not thinking my

(12:25):
career choice.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Hey, listen, man listen.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
But you're an artillery guy, enlisted, right.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I was an enlisted artillery guy.
So I went down to the recruiterand I said, hey, you know what
man, I want to be an infantrydude.
Put in the reserves, becauseback then you can go into
reserves and be infantry.
This is before they all phasedout infantry into the guard.
And so he's like, okay, hey,man, reserves, we'll put you 11
charlie mech unit.

(12:49):
I didn't know any better.
So I went to a drill weekendbefore I went to basic and I go
to the captain.
I'm like, hey, when can I go toranger school?
Like what?
So then I go back to myrecruiter and I'm like, hey, bro
, I want to go active duty, Iwant to do this.
And that he goes okay, man,let's go down to the recruiting,
but first we've got to file ahardship, because the only way

(13:11):
we're going to be able to getyou out of this reserve unit was
for you to write a letter andsay you can't live on the
outside world.
I'll do it.
I didn't know any better, youknow.
So I go down there, I file ahardship and I go to the um.
I go to maps in September andyou know, september is the end
of the fiscal year.
So you got shit for jobs left.

(13:32):
And uh, I go on the and mapsand they're like heck, yeah, we
got two jobs for you.
I know one was 13 Bravo and Icould I could have swore.
The other one was likecarpenter or some bullshit.
I don't even know what it was.
I'm like 13 Bravo, I'm likehell, no, he goes.
Well, you know what?
Um, if you leave today, you'regoing to be stuck in a system
you won't be able to go activeduty for another year.

(13:52):
I'm like, oh my gosh, what am Igoing to do?
I'm already like pot committed.
And uh, he goes.
Hey, as soon as you get tothere, you get to change your

(14:13):
mos, you know.
And plus, it's artillery, it'scombat arms.
You can go like airborne ranger.
So I go to fort cell and uh, Iget, I get fort carson, colorado
, and at the time it was fortcartoon for you know like there
was.
No, it was fourth id.
This was before third acr andand 10th group came in there and
it was just kind of like a, asleepy post to go to to retire,
and it was self-propelledartillery.
And then, uh, yeah, probably inpre-paladins, right yeah this
was definitely pre-paladins.
It was like the uh god man, whatm109, a2 or some shit.

(14:38):
And then when I went to forthood, they put me in a service
battery.
So I was first half service soI drove a pls.
It was like a damn palletizedload system and when you were
talking about ammo, I'm likejust hucking all that ammo but,
then my dumb ass goes, that goesto college.
And when I commissioned likeI'll go infantry, I'm like what

(15:00):
am I thinking, man?
So did you, did you deployoverseas at all?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, so I like you right, so I get out.
I get to the National GuardCause again.
I was like, hey, I'm collegemoney and let's.
And so the guard MissouriNational Guard did a tuition
reimbursement system so youcould take advantage of your GI
bill and get the money.
Then there was a student loanrepayment plan.
It was like 10,000 bucks andthen they had the tuition

(15:27):
reimbursement.
So I get all the way done.
And they had a weirdstipulation, right, it was if
you take anything after, youhave to stay three years past
the last time.
We pay your tuition, like noproblem.
So I like cut off.
I had like one semester, so Ihad two and a half years, and
they said, well, here's the deal.

(15:47):
So I turned in my gear, I wasturning in all my stuff and I
was leaving and they said, well,you actually need to get back
in because you're six monthsshort.
I was like, well, can we justdo a six month thing?
And they said, no, you can do,we can do a one year re-enlist,
like a try, one type thing.
I was like, all right, well,send me back in for one more

(16:08):
year.
I did that, I did one more year, I did that month 11 and we got
activated to go deploy.
So I got stop lost and then youknow it was an 18 month deal.
But I mean, back in this time Imean this was 2003 it was just a
our unit was kind of anightmare.
It was just a lot of everybodypenciled the PT test and people

(16:28):
weren't in good shape and theyreclassed us because they're
like we don't need artilleryguys over there, we need convoy
security and this stuff.
So they said, magic Wand, nowyou're MPs.
Well, you could go and be anartilleryman over there and
anywhere if you had some shit inyour criminal history, but if
you had DUIs and other thingsthat killed your clearance to be

(16:51):
an MP and they like booted halfof our guys out and they had to
back us with all the otherunits Come on man.
There's no criminals in themilitary.
Yeah, no, no, no, no.
So I'm sure this was already inplace way before they ever
decided to activate us, but theykept us stateside.
So I went to Fort Lewis and wereplaced an active duty unit

(17:12):
that then deployed over.
So I mean, it took us like twomonths of retraining and we were
expecting, hey, we're goingover.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
And we all hated each other at first and we kind of
grouped and came together in ahuge motivation thing and they
said and now you're going tofort lewis, so, and you know,
hey, some other guy, it'sbeautiful man, you know, if you
stay out of downtown seattle andand stay away from, like you
know, the homeless encampments,yeah well, I mean, this was back
then but it was still kind ofshitty, but hey, no, it's

(17:43):
beautiful man I love the area Imean there's a lot of public
land I'd be out hiking.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
I got to go hunting.
Now we got pretty shorthandedand so you know, for all intents
purposes, right, we didn't goto war and we didn't have to go
over there.
So you kind of feel grateful.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
You know hindsight, but at the time it was a pretty
good kick in the gut, uh but youknow, when you think about it,
like, yeah, you, let's say youdidn't go overseas, but 18
months of your life and you know, I just wrote this book pivot
about people getting out andtransition from the military
into the civilian sector and I'mlike, even if I and I probably

(18:17):
should have put a point in thereabout what if you get activated
for like 18 months man like me,I was the same way when I got
recalled it was 18 months andI'm like I had to do a hell of a
transition to get back intothat mindset of a civilian.
Now, let's say you're a nationalguard reserves and you get
activated for 18 months and thenyou're like you don't get taps,
you don't get this, you don'tget that, and if you're lucky

(18:38):
you'll have an employer who willrehire you.
But what if you don't?
What if you were like a collegekid?
Or what if you just didn't haveit like meaningful employment
before you went?
You still have to transition,you still have to pivot into a
career, yeah, but now you have18 months worth of experience.
So how do you, how do you takethat transition from that point

(19:02):
and get meaningful employment?
It's it, employment.
It's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, I mean your book Pivot totally would have
helped me out, right?
Because when we got activated,I was working at Enterprise
Rent-A-Car.
My girlfriend now my wife shewas still in college, so I was
just sticking around our collegetown there in Columbia Missouri
and we're just killing timeuntil she gets, you know,
graduated.
And this happened.

(19:27):
Well, I had applied, I'd, youknow, taken the LSAT.
I'd applied, I was going to lawschool, so I was like I'm, I'm
accepted, let's, you know, get.
But that got put on hold.
And then, of course, 18 monthslater, and I lost motivation for
that.
And then, like now we have realworld stuff to do, you know,
still dating my, my wife at thetime.
And well, now I want to makemoney.

(19:48):
And so I was kind of lost.
I'm like, what do you do tomake money?
And like, I don't know, startthrowing darts.
Uh, so I helped kill the housingmarket, uh, you know, doing
subprime mortgages and being aloan officer man, so I, I'm that
asshole, uh, uh, and that guy,but I looked at it as, like, man
, this is a good way to make alot of money, but I didn't have
a tribe and I didn't have, youknow, a lot of good, you know,

(20:11):
tight-knit group and I went fromall of that to now, you know,
and somewhat of anaction-oriented job to like I'm
sitting behind a desk and coldcalling people and I think
that's what, especially with youknow people you're trying to
help.
Some of the things that theyneed to look at is like, yeah,

(20:31):
you've got a pretty goodadrenaline base of what is
exciting and even if you'resitting around and cleaning guns
and weapons, but you're stillgo out in the field and do
training and stuff and,depending on what your MOS is, I
mean, you're still a part of agroup and a tribe.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
And if you get to try to choose a career based off of
money only and not what theexperience and what it's going
to bring you beneficially toyour own mindset, it's going to
kill you.
And that's what did to me,which is how I eventually found
police work back, like I, youknow, when I transitioned back
from um, from iraq and evenbefore that I was like man, you
know, I gotta I had to get a jobcloser to home for for a family
situation and stuff like that.
But I even thought about goingcorporate because you think you
know what all I really, all Ireally need is just some cash.

(21:18):
I need money, I need justsomething to survive and plus,
hey, you know what?
I was an officer, I did this,and especially guys and girls
who get MBAs or whatever, all ofa sudden their mind shifts into
that money phase where it's notabout service, it's about I
just need what's good for me, Ineed to survive, I need cash, I

(21:41):
want fancy things, and that'sone thing I probably should have
put in that book too was likeyou are going to go through
phases, you're going to gothrough the phase of shit.
They just took 18 months of mylife, or they took five years of
my life.
They took four years of my lifeeven though we all signed up

(22:06):
for it.
But it's like now I want me, me, me and a lot of us will do the
me me, me thing.
Then all of a sudden it gets tohuh, I want to give back and
you want to give back.
And that's where, like the jobs, like the public service jobs,
the cop jobs, the EMS jobs, evenlike, even doesn't even have to
be like law enforcement orfirst responder jobs, but it's
something where you give backand so you're not just need me,

(22:29):
me, me, cash, cash, cash andmaterialistic.
I mean, yeah, you can still doall those things as public
sector and stuff, but obviouslyyou're not going to make as much
money yeah, like I mean there'sa lot of great stuff with hud.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
I mean housing, urban development.
I mean there's you can get andthose are good, meaningful jobs
where you can actually get outand know that you're helping
people and, right, you don'thave to wear a badge to do help
people.
So I mean there's all kinds ofI mean even, like we just talked
FEMA.
I mean there's, you know, ifyou go in with the right mindset
, that you know you can be thathelpful person, versus I'm just

(23:03):
trying to collect a paycheck andI'm down here I'm hating my
life and banging my head on thewall.
You know what's your purpose.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
So so when you you're like, where'd the cop thing
come from, because do you haveany cops in your background, or
you're just like, hey, dude,it's like that movie, let's be
cops one day.
You're like, oh man, it'd becool.
Like me, I'm watching miamivice and going, hey, what's up?
You know, yeah, like a movieI'm talking, like I'm I'm
binging the first few seasons ofmiami vice now from the 80s.
But you know what was yourmotivation?

(23:31):
To jump into police work dude.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
So my roommate at fort lewis was a kansas city cop
and uh, we got stuck doingpolice, you know mp being on
patrol in fort Lewis and when Igot done with that I was like I,
if you ever try to make me acop again, I hate it.
They were, you know we werecops but we really weren't I
mean like over glorifiedsecurity guard.

(23:53):
We did gate detail all the timeand I mean we did patrol and
but you're on post and you knowDV stuff type mostly, but it's
pretty controlled.
But so, yeah, my roommate was aKansas City cop and I got well,
we got out and I was, after Igot done with the mortgage when
I killed the housing market, Istarted doing outside sales of

(24:18):
payroll services and I'm likeyou talk about something even
more mind numbing, but I wasmaking good money.
I'm like making 90 grand a yearand happy with that.
But I mean I was devastated.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
I mean, let's talk about, let's talk about like
that happy, you know, there's adifferent and we're going to get
into, believe me, we're goingto get into police work and
everything else, but this isthat point, man, this is that
that bridge point.
You know, I I call it thebridge job.
It's like where it's likeyou're just doing something to
get a paycheck and man, thatpaycheck is good, you know, 90

(24:52):
grand in Kansas City or Missourior wherever you're living.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
That's pretty good money.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
That's damn good money, especially back in 2005,
2006.
Yep, and you're like huh.
So what do you need?
You need fulfillment, right,you need some sort of
fulfillment.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
And again I keep going back.
This is my tribe right.
I had no camaraderie.
I mean, I went from sports inhigh school, military college.
You know I wasn't like me andmy idiot buddies were all like
motorcycle right, you know,crotch rocket idiots driving the
back road.
But we go get drunk and hangout and party and do all of our.

(25:31):
I always had a group of people.
Well, now I'm on outside sales,driving all by myself, spending
every day alone and like my onlyexcitement beyond just the job
suck.
My only excitement was findingways to, you know, scrounge up
customers easier than going upand opening a business door and
getting shut down by thesecretary.
So I was like I do these happyhours with accountants and the

(25:52):
lady accountants don't want tobe talking about payroll because
we'll get in the new, we don'tneed to get in the nuances of.
You know they do payroll forcustomers but they don't want to
see a hot you know attractiveyoung lady either come in their
business.
So us guys would go in and wedo these happy hour things and
I'd let these old ladyaccountants grope the crap out

(26:13):
of me and kind of pimp myselfout like a Hooters waitress just
to get them to give me some oftheir client list.
But that was my source ofexcitement.
I was like this is terrible.
But again I was drawn by themoney.
But I had no purpose at all.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
You brought up one thing I never think about man,
because I'm like it's not justthe tribe, it's the crew of just
talking straight shit.
And, believe me, it's like youdo it in high school.
When you have friends in highschool, all you do is you talk
shit.
You get to college is you talkshit.

(26:50):
You get to college, you talkshit and you then what happens
is like a lot of people thathaven't been in the military.
When you get in there, you're,you always go through some sort
of experience with the peoplewho come close to you.
That just sucks the fucking lifeout of you like, just drains
you just like it could be.
You could be in a field for aweek and it's just pouring rain
and you just sit around.
It comes to a point where youlook at each other and it's the
catalyst of like oh, you knowjust being in the suck and

(27:13):
you're like, and then then thereal shit talking starts.
Then the real like, the real,like camaraderie starts, because
you're sharing an experienceand you have those in college
and all that other stuff, butthere's nothing like it, like
you have had in the military.
So I think when you were sayinglike you're being alone.

(27:35):
It's like and I'm at that pointnow, and you know like I'm at
this weird phase of my lifewhere I'm like I don't even know
if I have a handful of people Icould hang out with at any
given time.
But it's like when you're outof the military and you get away
from having people who are withyou 24-7 or even like 18 hours
out of the day, I mean you'rewith these people with an

(27:56):
ungodly amount of time, sharingso much experience.
And then you get into sales.
You get into, like, subprimemortgages, you get into outside
sales and you're like, huh, youhave nothing in common with
these people.
Nope, yeah, I'm like, yeah, youcould bitch about the old lady
groping and they all have their.
I mean what I'm just saying,like together, like you could go

(28:18):
to your buddies and like, yeah,that old lady just grabbed my
ass and you're like, but ingeneral you don't have that,
that team like, like, like yousaid, the tribe, you don't have
anybody to.
It's not just commiserate,commiserate with, but to share,
like just life man.
That some of the most deep,interesting conversations I've
had with people who are justfrom a completely different

(28:40):
background, completely differentbackground, completely
different spheres I meanreligious, economic, anything,
background but because you putthat uniform on, you have that
shared experience and then youlearn and you like, you just,
you just become like justsomething different man.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, that's.
I mean that's exactly my sameexperience.
I mean that's right.
Even when we were gettingretrained to be mps, I mean we
all went in and hated each othercompletely.
I mean it was egos and peopledidn't want to be there.
People wanted to be there.
Uh, they didn't want to getreclassed.
We had, I mean, they put likemaintenance guys with us, but we

(29:18):
all bonded over.
Eventually we came together andbonded.
I mean that shared experiencealone, beyond just the uniform.
So I mean that's.
I mean and I see that I've seenthat time and time again,
obviously throughout all mydifferent career stops, I mean
that's the stops that I didn'thave, that were where I was, you
know, square peg and round hole, right, and that's what the

(29:39):
sales and stuff was for me.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
You know what, though ?
In law enforcement, you'reselling.
You're always talking to people, you're always selling
something.
You're gonna sell them a rideto jail, or you're gonna sell
them something else.
So you this roommate of yourslike hey, bro, let's, let's do
this, let's be cops.
I'm already a cop, you got todo it, let's do it.
And you're like okay, what's up?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
yeah, well, that was I.
I called him up, you know, justto keep touching base, um, and
I was asking him, hey, hey,what's going on?
He would tell me, oh, I've gotthis car chase, got a foot chase
.
And I'm saying, okay, well,yeah, I, I went and like knocked
on like 44 doors yesterday andgot shut down by 44 people, like
man, it was all of a sudden,you know, looking really

(30:19):
exciting.
And then you know, of course Ihad to bring that I was still
just dating my wife, you know,still just my girlfriend at the
time.
So like, okay, well, now I gotto convince her like, hey, is
this a good idea?

Speaker 1 (30:31):
I think it's a great idea.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
But our starting pay was like 32,000 a year and you
know, we're living in somecrappy apartment trying to find
a way to scrap money for a home,uh, you know, and down payment
for a home.
So we're, like you know, reallysaving money and I thought,
okay, but it's going to make mehappy and that's the key Like
it's going to suck.
The pay is going to suck.

(30:54):
I mean that's a third of my.
I mean I'm making a third ofwhat I was.
But you, I mean that was work.
Come on, man, cops make a tonof money.
You can, if you can, find a wayto work a bunch of overtime and
you know side gigs and all that.
But then you know, and I gotinto, you know, eventually
working 90, 95 hours a week.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
But then you're never home and you're missing out on
all, from one, one position,like you go from the military to
sales and then you go to theacademy and now you're starting
back.
You're almost like a privateagain.
So I mean, in law enforcementit's different.
You know, my first, my firstfour, not much control, yeah,
but it's like, yeah, you getinto it.
And you're like, wow, thisfucking dude is treating me like
shit.
And you're like, who the hellare you to be treating me like

(31:49):
shit, dude?
How old have you been in that?
Kick in the butt.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
I was 28 years old almost 29.
So then I walk in and I've got.
You know, my FTO is like threeyears younger than me and I, you
know, I'm older than half of mysector and I walk in.
I'm like, hey, what's up guys?
They're like shut up, new guy,you're gonna sit down and shut
up.
You don't know anything.
I'm like, true, I don't, and Iknew the game right because I
was a military guy.

(32:12):
So I'm like, yep, it's my, I'mthe new guy, it's my job to get
pissed on and that's I'm gonna.
I have to deal with the shitwork.
I'm just, it's just what it is.
So I understood that part of theculture and I, the people that
get in there, don't?
You know, they struggle alittle bit, but, um, I mean it
was.
It was like come on, man, Imean the Academy, right.
Same way, Cause it was kind ofmilitaristic, though they

(32:34):
weren't like doing like you getin trouble, you're doing
push-ups anyway.
So it was like almost yeah, itwas almost like hey we're just
like, now we're.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
This is our way to mess with you, with the
instructors, so, and you're likeI gotta get in shape.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Anyway, I'm gonna be.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean right.
Too many happy hours with the,the old ladies.
Uh, I'd gained a little bit ofweight, so I was not quite as
fit as I once was.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
I believe me, I know that thing.
But hey, you know what, whenyou get there and you graduate
and you get that badge on yourchest now you're in a uniform,
you're another paramilitaryorganization.
Um, you go through your fto andthen you're on a street for the
first time.
Do you remember that firstnight that you were like on your
own?

Speaker 2 (33:19):
dude I put in my book .
It was that it was thatingrained.
Well, I put it the first andthe second night totally in my
mind, so much so that I put itin the book because it will
stick with me forever.
I mean, my hometown was about200 people, so I was from a
really small hometown.
We were about an hour away fromKansas City, so I wasn't used

(33:41):
to a lot of what I was about toexperience in the inner city of
Kansas City, which I mean, ifyou watch the news right, so
we're when you look at the percapita violent crime statistics,
we're always in the top 10.
So it's like hustling.
So you know, the first nightthe only thing we did was like
let's drive around and find thehospitals and then, let's make

(34:02):
sure you can get to everyhospital without looking at a
map.
I mean, we didn't havesmartphones and all that stuff
so you had to memorize it.
We had already memorized thestreets, east to west, north to
south, what hundred block theyare.
And so he's like, okay, let'sdrive somewhere.
And then you tell me then youdrive the fastest route to the
hospital because if I get shotright now can you save my life

(34:23):
by getting me to the hospitalfaster.
And that was first night.
Second night he's like, okay,my fto is like I'm riding with
you but I'm not here, so you'regonna handle everything.
I'm just gonna be quiet andevaluate you.
My first, my first call, was arape call.
I was like, oh my god, you knowyou get nervous, right, because
that's a big deal.

(34:43):
Yep to woman's life.
You know her life is about tochange.
It has changed now for like theworst.
And so like the jitters ofbeing a male with that and like
want to take it really seriousand do all you can because the
most violated thing that couldever happen to her just happened
.
And I remember I was justcompletely flustered and like

(35:03):
freaked out the whole drivethere to go meet with this woman
, so man it.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
It messed me up pretty good on that one um and
then you know when you, when youwent to talk to this woman you
know I love there's a lot ofthese classes now because
they're doing liketrauma-informed policing they're
being.
They're teaching you how totalk to victims and not be like
a cop, but your mind had to bein cop mode.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Totally.
I had a female sergeant who wasthe best boss I've ever had in
my life and she, of course, shewas really in tuned on the
training of recruits and so shestops on almost as many calls as
she could ever get to from allthe recruits in the area.
And she yanked me away and waslike get over there and talk to

(35:49):
your backup car.
And she took over because I hadthis woman sitting down and I
stood over top of her powerstance, my hand I'm taking notes
because I didn't want to missanything.
Now, for my own justification,I was like I want to catch every
detail she says because thatcould make the difference on do
we find the guy, do we not findthe guy?

(36:10):
And I didn't want to missanything, but I was.
You know, here's this I would.
You know it's about 175 pound.
You know, five foot 10 guystanding over tall, this hundred
pound woman towering over herwith this power stance.
I mean it was like and mybackup guy?
He's like hey, you idiot.
And smack, smack me in the backof the head.

(36:30):
He's like do you think thiswoman wants to be re-traumatized
with you standing over her likethis?
He's like look out, look howDeb's doing it, so she's sitting
down next to her.
I was like, I mean just asimple little things like that.
But you know I'm a newbie andI'm glad they yanked me when
they did because you knowultimately can make the
difference, uh, on how herexperience you know, changes
from there.
But man, I mean I was reallyembarrassed on that one and it

(36:52):
stuck with me.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
I mean that was not even embarrassing, man, it's
like you know and I was writingsome notes here because I'm
thinking about it I'm like it'syou don't know.
Yeah, you know you could selland we brought up before you
could sell.
You know you could probablysell a pen to a fucking to
anybody.
But when you're, when you'retrying to be, have emotions, and
you're trying to deal withsomeone who's had the absolute

(37:15):
worst day of their life, someoneyou know and God man, this just
drives me nuts.
When someone rapes a woman justdrives me nuts.
When someone rapes a woman,it's not like they're stealing
their purse.
They are stealing somethingthat they will never get back.
And then, all of a sudden, thenext person that comes into
their life is a cop man.

(37:36):
It's someone who's like and youknow what.
It depends on how they'vealways experienced, had
experience with the cops.
What if this is their firstexperience with a cop and all
they know is they're anauthority figure that takes
freedom away from people?
I mean, that might be theirmentality.
All of a sudden, you're here,you're standing over there and
you're like this position ofpower and you try to get them to

(38:03):
open up.
And that's where the empathypack comes in and that's where a
different type of selling comesin.
This is where you are sellingyour, your empathy to have them
give you information so you cango and get that scumbag piece of
shit that fucking did this tothem.
Yeah, and it's just something Iwish there was a way to to
teach that at the academy, and Iwish there was a way that you

(38:24):
can ingrain that in people.
I think even if people are goingto college and they're going to
get into criminal justice orcriminology or law enforcement
or whatever their damn degreesays, that says they want to get
into this career field whereyou put a badge on your chest
that they have some sort oftraining like the
trauma-informed policing, somesort of empathy training where

(38:45):
it's not just because you know,you know what just as well as I
do when you go through theacademy it's like it's shoot,
don't shoot, shoot, don't shoot.
It's like get on the ground.
It's like this uh, you know,shut off the motor, come out
with your hands up, and it'salways it's never about hey, you
know what, how are you doing?
And if they do, it's like threehours, it's like a two-hour
block of instruction, yeah, andit's that there's nothing to

(39:06):
have nothing to do with empathy,and my viewpoint on this is too
.
It's like it's not just forvictims.
If you're empathetic and you'regoing to try to develop sources
in the field, like you know,you're driving around, you're,
you're meeting people, thecommunity, and you're that guy
or girl who has their Oakleyblades or some bullshit on all

(39:28):
the time and you're, like youknow, arms crossed and you don't
want to talk because you're thecop, you're the popo, and you
don't have any empathy and youdon't have any conversational
skills, you don't have anypeople skills.
How are you ever going todevelop a source of information?
How are you ever going to knowwhat's going on in your
community?
A source of information?

Speaker 2 (39:44):
How are you ever going to know what's going on in
your community?
Yeah, and they try to implementa lot of that stuff, forcing us
.
I say forcing because somepeople didn't want.
They wanted to stay in theircar, they just wanted to pull
cars over, but they made it amandatory thing.
Every shift you have aneighborhood walk, you get out
of your car, people can see outof your car, interact with the
neighborhoods.
Of course, out of your car,people can see out of your car

(40:06):
interact with the neighborhoods.
Um, you know, of course, thehard part becomes if you're on
the overnight shift, workingfrom 10 at night until eight in
the morning.
You know, and it's winter timein missouri, like where the you
know, it's zero degrees rightnow.
So, yeah, who are you going tofind out there?
Uh, doing stuff.
So I think, and I think a lotof places are making big strides
these days on that uh, becausebeyond just, it makes good sense

(40:29):
.
I think some of this newergeneration of people you know
are so addicted to their phonesthey have a hard time conversing
with each other.
Right?
If me and you were sitting at atable, we could just be staring
at our phones the whole time,or even texting each other
versus having this kind ofconversation.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
We could literally be sitting in the same room
texting each other.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Conversation skills are like dramatically decreased
in the last decade and we'reseeing that with a lot of police
officers too.
Like because right, you're agreat, you have to be a great
salesman.
You walk into a case where youcan't even just arrest somebody
to solve the problem.
You have to talk sense in asolution and sell it to these
people who are arguing to makeus.

(41:05):
You don't have to go back onseven, nine, one, one calls to
the same house and like feellike you're, you know, banging
your head against the wall.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
So and you brought up a word before um, you were like
we had to do mandatory walkaround the neighborhood.
Listen, man, you, you work in10, 12, 16 hour shifts.
You know you had to workovertime.
You're trying to catch up onyour paperwork and all of a
sudden, like man, I got to dothat damn mandatory hour and you
learn to hate it.
And then you pull back in, youwithdraw All that empathy and

(41:35):
all that people skills.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
becomes disgruntled yeah, and I think too, beyond
just that though it's it's, youget a certain type of people
that can just you know, and it'swhat I, when I speak to people,
I speak on what you getaddicted to the adrenaline, so
something that it doesn't bringyou adrenaline, it's going to
put you in a depressive state.
So people start to fear right,you know to, really beyond just

(42:02):
hating it.
Making it mandatory has a badstigma to it anyway.
But if you take and say, hey,instead of going to stop at a
bunch of cars or answering abunch of crazy 911 calls, we're
going to make you get out and dosomething that puts you at a
danger risk of a two.
That's going to put you in ahell of a depressive state and
you're not going to want to doit anyway.
But, as you even pointed out,though, those are the places and

(42:22):
the times where you can reallyget some good intel from people
in the neighborhood, startgetting a source that actually
leads you to the stuff that willget you your adrenaline and
make a difference in thecommunity.
So I mean it's.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
I think we can become too short sighted on what the
real benefits are of somethinglike that and not look at the
big picture.
So when you, when you talkabout patrol, I think everybody
you know, man, one thing I'vealways learned is like being a
mentor and being talking to kidsand talking to college kids and
vets and everybody else aboutwhen they want to get into law
enforcement.
They're always like I want tobe on swat or I want to be in
specialized units, but theynever want to work patrol.

(43:04):
I mean once in a while you'llfind a few people are like ah,
patrol is like that's what Iwant to do.
I want to be on the street, Iwant to just be able to drive
around, but everybody wants tobe in a specialized unit.
Now, how long were you onpatrol before you jumped into
doing like drugs and detective?

Speaker 2 (43:19):
work Six years, oh wow, so I think at an average
burnout, and I think that playsinto a lot of it too, right?
So average burnout used to beabout five to seven years and
now we're seeing officersgetting burned out in year three
and five, you know, asked to domore with less mission creep.
Same with, you know, navy sealsand stuff where those guys get
asked to do way more than whattheir actual you know, specialty
is so, uh, we're seeing that.

(43:41):
But um, uh, yeah, I mean wasyear six, I was burnt out and
where I was the good officer andI was that grumpy veteran that
I met day a.
You know, like ours is a biggeragency where you have a lot of

(44:06):
crazy, cool, fun, specializedunits, but you get really
shorthanded.
You're running 40 and 50 callsa night and it's always handling
DVs and disturbances that are.
You go there and it's like thisis the third time I'm here and
people start getting burned outof the.
This isn't what I imagined.
You know they're short, reallyshorthanded, so self-initiated

(44:27):
activity is ceased, so there'sno stopping cars and doing what
you classize the fun stuff.
So uh, but you see, thespecialized units, like the
units I was in man like we'renot answering calls.
We were, you know, I was uc.
So like I, I had a, you knowbeater van, and I'm out there
chasing all these high profilepeople which you only hear about

(44:48):
in the news, like, hey, thisguy got arrested and he's the
serial killer.
Well, you didn't know that meand my squad have been following
this dude 24, 7 for three weeksso and then they find out about
like, oh my gosh, that's thecoolest stuff and that's
actually what drew me to thework was my buddy had been doing
it, a different buddy had beendoing it and he's like, dude,
I'm leaving undercover work, youcan take my spot.

(45:08):
And I was like, sign me up.
So, because I was drawn to thatsame cool stuff, but I was also
, you know, beyond that I use itwhen I talk the same word as
your book pivot.
When you get in a stale place,you either pivot or you step up.
So pivot is a change in yourdirection to bring you out of a
slump, and then a step up, ofcourse, right, you're just going

(45:30):
to take riskier and riskiermoves, um, to bring you out of
any kind of depressive state orburnout.
And that's, those are the waysyou avoid burnout, you know,
especially in law enforcement.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
You know, when I think about burnout and it's
like really like you always getthese like oh, light bulb moment
.
But you're like, you know, youtalk about three to five year
burnout, you talk about six yearburnout, eight year burnout.
A lot of that has to do withmanagement.
We know that you get tired ofthe same bullshit.
But then it's also the day inand day out monotony followed by
this adrenaline, adrenaline,adrenaline, where your body
always wants to burn off all theexcess energy through whatever

(46:02):
means necessary.
But you know, when you talkabout burnout there's also the
post-traumatic stress of the dayin and day out and like just
not knowing, the never knowingif this is going to be it.
And you think about they'realways telling cops like later
on in our career, like later on,you know, they never say, as

(46:23):
you're going two, three yearsand like, oh, you should maybe
talk to someone about that,maybe you should have some sort
of counseling.
And we all know counselingsometimes just doesn't work
because you know, try to talk toa civilian who's never really
experienced anything in theirlife.
You know my first four or fivecounselors that I went to
through over the years and I'vehad to rotate through them to

(46:43):
try to find one.
That was good.
We're like 22 year old gradstudents, 20 to 26 year old,
anything, but sometimes that'swhere these like peer counselors
come in.
That's where they should havesome sort of network, not really
like an AA, because, hey look,not everybody's addicted but you
are addicted to somethingcalled adrenaline, but maybe

(47:04):
some sort of peer support groups, that where you can go.
I mean there's a really coolorganization called Reps for
Responders that I they're onsocial media, that you know.
I try to talk to those guysonce in a while, but they're
always like every Sunday theyhave a virtual meeting or we get
together and they talk.
It's almost like an AA thing.
And a lot of them have foughtaddiction god knows so many cops

(47:26):
and have fought addiction,whether it's alcohol and drugs,
even, um, sex addiction,everything you can imagine.
But maybe not.
Maybe not get to that pointwhere you are addicted, but
there is almost like what theyused to call the choir practice.
But more like yeah, but morestructured.
So it's not just a bitchsession.

(47:47):
Yeah, towards it, you couldactually work through things and
have that camaraderie.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah.
And so, with my speaking right,I work with.
Who was my therapist?
And, like you, it took meseveral runs of ones that I
thought I didn't know what tothink of therapy, so I just went
along with whatever I'd gottenand I thought, okay, well, this
person just lets me do what Iwant and I you know it's a paid

(48:12):
best friend.
I just pay a bunch of money andget to talk.
I think venting is doing it,but it's not Like Sid has to be
structured and intentional.
So, dr Prohaska, she was mytherapist and amazing, amazing
woman.
She focuses, like all of herattention on helping first

(48:32):
responders.
You know, overcome it.
And now her new mission is, youknow, similar to what you
talked about is what if we cankeep people from getting into
this feeling?
And then this stressed out PTSD, because fixing it is hard.
And she's like I'm tired offixing it, like, yeah, I can't
always fix it, but I'm I'm tiredof seeing the revolving door.
What if there's a way that wecan stop it?
And so she's got this company,tactical longevity.

(48:55):
I recommend people look into it.
I mean, it's where there is a.
She has an app and a wholeprogram of like, hey, an app and
a whole program of like, hey,let's train people to not get
into that zone so that if I everdo have to fix them, it's
easier and the hope is that youdon't ever need fixing.
I mean, we're going toexperience some really traumatic
stuff.
There's no stopping that right.

(49:16):
I mean, our world and societyis a really dangerous place.
We have a really dangerous jobas first responders and military
people.
It's unfortunate.
That's just an aspect of it,but there's ways that we can do
better.
You know, training and stuffbeforehand and set the right
mindset before we do all thisand get ourselves, you know, you

(49:36):
know, tied up.
So I mean it.
It would have changed me.
I mean, I, that's one of mydownfalls, was that not?
I mean, I got shot, but thatwas, you know, only part of my,
only part of my injury.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
But leading up to that was you know, you said it a
million times adrenaline junkie.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
And anybody who's been in law enforcement knows
that there is just this feelingyou get, man.
You know search warrants comingup, you're going to put hands
on, you're going to do something.
It's the unknowing, but theknowing, knowing that it could
be, really just you never knowwhat's gonna happen, so you
prepare mentally.
But just that feeling, man,that just that that gut feeling

(50:14):
that you know you're all gearedup, you're ready to go, you're
like, yeah, well, the scary partis when you don't get that
feeling anymore and you're justdoing stuff and you don't feel
it anymore and you get numb andthat's where I found myself.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
I mean, that was I was never the SWAT guy.
I mean, when I found undercoverwork, I knew that, that I found
a niche and I was freaking goodat it.
And eventually I mean at first,yeah, it's like nerve wracking
as shit, and it was like buyinga crack rock off some you know
prostitute off the street, whichwas like not dangerous, but it
was exhilarating.
And eventually, though, I meanlike I was going in some really

(50:50):
bad dudes places and houses andbuys guns are always, you know,
guns in my face almost gettingkilled and it was like I would
laugh about it.
So I've got a, I've got anaudio from one of my buys, where
it was a knife and a gunfightduring my buy, and I eventually
get the dude out of the houseand I'm laughing with him like,

(51:11):
oh dude, I didn't want to get inbetween you two, but man, this
is crazy.
I'm laughing.
I mean that was a 10 on a lifethreatening situation.
Yeah, I registered as a fourbecause I lost it all and that's
I didn't.
I couldn't even realize and seethat either until years later.
So, like when that's.
You know, one of the biggestthings like educating people on

(51:33):
this is like, man, you got to beable to do proper self checks
and realize when you're out ofbounds and like, even if you try
to correct me at that point Iwas so far gone I couldn't even
see it, even if you pointed outto me.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
so you know you let yourself go, yeah, because,
because you're like.
But then what's the point?
You know you get to a certainpoint in your career where
you're like am I gonna do thisforever?

Speaker 2 (51:57):
I would have until I got killed.
I mean that was, and that's theproblem is taking risks where I
eventually was gonna get killedand almost did um.
But I don't think people,especially when you get that
wound up and it's not been onlaw enforcement.
I've got a, you know my one ofmy best friends in high school.
He was in Iraq three times andAfghanistan one and he's, you

(52:18):
know, really struggling but thearmy forced him out.
He was like dude, I was justgoing to keep signing up for
every deployment.
I was going to do this forever.
Like how long do you think youcan carry that on?
But I I couldn't make that sameinference about me and my
career.
It's kind of weird.
Right so dysfunction, can't seedysfunction.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
So never it can't, and you know because you get.
You get the tunnel vision.
Hey look, you can go into likethe most dynamic entry in the
world.
You can see everything that'sgoing on.
You might be the best cop inthe world, but when it comes to
like what is going on in yourlife, you have tunnel vision.
You were like you could you doyour job?
You come home, maybe have a fewdrinks, hang out with the wife

(52:58):
here and there, hang out thegirlfriend boy for whatever, and
then you go back to do it allagain next day.
Then the weekend comes.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
You're like shit, I can't wait to get back to work
just don't have to deal withthis bullshit, you know yeah,
and that was the problem witheventually with my work, right
as we didn't get weekends offeither, so we would work, you
know, six, seven days a week,and then, even when I would come
home for dinner, I'd get mywife.
My phone would ring and she'slike let me guess you got to go
back in yeah I do so eighto'clock at night.

(53:24):
I'm going back in and comingback home at three in the
morning just to turn around doit again at seven and I loved it
, loved every minute of it and Iwas like if I had to sit and
take vacation.
I was like, oh my gosh, oh yeah, driving me nuts especially if
you're putting together a caselike a real case yeah, you, you
know it's just when you.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
But then you get around the people who you're
working with and you, I loved,love, love, love being the
reliable one where you couldcall me on a Saturday night and
back then it was like the next Iwas getting that little chirp
on two am, two am and you'relike let's go bro, are we doing?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
man?
What do you got going on?
I don't care.
Yeah, I was.
I would get ridiculed, they'relike, so my undercover name was
ricky and I would be the oneblast and everyone.
Hey guys, I got this set uplike, oh, let me guess this is
ricky shit.
Like it totally is.
Like I know, but I need liketwo people to come in cover me
on this deal.
Uh, you know, I've got thisthing going on like dude, this
can wait.
I'm like no, no, no, no, like Ineed you don't understand.
Like I need this.
So, and that was you know Iwould talk as many people as I

(54:27):
could into the pit with me.
Uh, you know, unfortunately soI was, you know, I was that far.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
You know you're running that loose yeah, I'm
looking at, like when youemailed me like, turns out
getting shot wasn't the worst,what was it?
The rest of it?
Uh, that used to be the titleof my presentation turns out
getting shot isn't the worst.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
What was it the rest of it?
That used to be the title of mypresentation Turns out getting
shot isn't the worst thing.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, you know, and that's the thing is like you got
shot, man.
The worst shit that couldhappen to you happens.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah, six times on AK-47.
So I'm lucky to be alive7.62x39mm will shred any vest
out there unless you have plateson yeah, I was a uc so I had
short, I had baggy shorts and,uh, a t-shirt, so, and no gun,
uh.
So, yeah, uh, it took me a longtime to realize and a lot of, a

(55:17):
lot of therapy, years of goingtwo and three and four times a
week to really figure it likegetting shot was what saved my
life because I was really goingdown a bad path.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
So the addiction to the adrenaline- now, were you
doing anything like drugsdrinking or anything else like
that?
I mean, what was the path?
Yeah, booze man drinking, yepyep.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
So, um, lucky enough that I, you know, I held on to a
little shred of my morals withand we were allowed to drink on
duty, though, like, as you see,like, hey, man, like you got to
have some booze on your breath.
Well, you know, it also helpstaking the edge off if you did
have anything going on.
So, um, but, uh, yeah, it was.
Uh, alcohol, was.

(55:58):
It's a quick, easy button andit's it's a way to fall asleep.
Where you don't fall asleephard enough to have nightmares
and dreams, I found I was likeman, this is perfect.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
So, uh, and then what was your booze of choice?
Were you drinking beer orliquor?

Speaker 2 (56:12):
I quit the I quit beer because it was.
It took too much to drink it toget uh, to get drunk.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
So, uh, I know you're a rum guy uh well, I was a rum
guy, I was a rum guy.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
So, uh, mine was bourbon.
So I did buffalo trace when youcould find it real easily, and
then it got a little tougher tofind.
So, uh, you know, four rays,four roses are maker's mark,
that's, I would I would have aflask at work and they're like
I'd drink it up, drink it up,I'd refill it, and you know, not
get drunk but get enough whereyou know took the edge off.

(56:48):
And then the moment we said,hey, we're calling it for the
night, I'd pound it and thencome home and then fill a whole
cup of a Yeti cup.
So you couldn't.
So my wife couldn't tell, shecouldn't tell how much I was
drinking or how strong, I mixedit with anything or what.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Yeah, you know, back in the day my thing was rum and
I used to think I needed it inorder to get by.
But my my problem too was I wason um SSRIs, I was on Lexapro
for years, so I would.
I would get to a point whereand this is in the two thousands
, you know, 2011, 2012, I wasgoing through a lot of anxiety a
ton, and then, for like I don'tknow how long after that, I was

(57:25):
drinking, like you know, a tonof rum.
A ton, and it wasn't just likerum, it was like crack and it
was like 151.
It was anything you can get inthere.
But I got to a point where Iwas like I can't do it anymore,
man, and I would get so, so, sothe booze and Lexapro would give
me this depression that I wouldnever, ever wish on anybody,

(57:48):
where it would be like two orthree days in bed type
depression and I'm trying to bea functional dad and be a
functional husband even me out.
But then things would happenwhere I would have even too much
anxiety that I'd try to usebooze to even it out, and then I

(58:14):
would just get this I used tocall it like a dark sponge in my
head where it felt like therewas a sponge, but it was like a
cloud and it would just absorball the happiness.
And if I could just pull outthat sponge I would get all my
happiness back.
Um, but then I realized after awhile that the booze didn't
work anymore.
So I think it was about, youknow, I all the bad decisions

(58:35):
I've ever made in my life andthings I've done, um, always had
something to do with booze.
So I've really I cut, I reallywent like straight sober for a
long time.
Now I'll have an occasionaldrink here and there, but I stay
away from rum for one.
I'll drink some bourbon hereand there.
I'll have a bourbon or two,maybe a beer or two, but I

(58:57):
cannot go down that path again.
And then I'm going to do apodcast with a psychiatrist and
we're going to talk about SSRIsand law enforcement and Alexa
pros and everything.
I've had to make some criticaldecisions over the past six,
eight months, ten months, and Iwanted to be able to have a
clear mind to do them.

(59:17):
So I weaned myself off of theAlexa pro, the generic X-Scap I
can't pronounce it.
So I weaned myself off of theAlexa pro, the, the, you know
the generic X scalp, I canpronounce it.
So I weaned myself off of it.
Um, and I tell everybody, ifyou ever, ever, ever, want to
get off of these, these um,anxiety meds and everything, you
cannot go cold Turkey.
You cannot go cold Turkey.

(59:38):
I say that again do not go coldTurkey because your mind is at
a certain point.
And when I weaned myself off itit was almost like for that
first two weeks I would getthese, like it almost felt like
electric shocks, likeelectroshocks, like when I turn
my head.
It was like just weird anxiety.
So I really I can't wait to dothat episode.

(59:58):
It's going to probably recordit in February.
I'm setting up now, but nice,yeah, so same deal.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, court in february.
I'm setting up now, but nice,yeah, mine was virtually so same
deal.
Yeah, warn me like drilled itin my head and I'm glad you said
it a few times.
Right, you have same as itramps up coming in, you have to
ramp down and and wean yourselfoff.
It's, there's no cold turkey.
It's just not gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
It's not gonna end well now, before you got a shot
and we'll get into you gettingshot did you wean yourself the
booze or were you booze up allthe way up until that point?

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
um, actually, you know what my drinking was?
I, I wouldn't have clare clarewouldn't have classified it as a
problem at that time.
Uh, I mean, obviously it was,but it wasn't to the excess that
eventually became.
So my bigger problem was theadrenaline addiction, and so I
would go into buys and I wouldcreate conflict where there

(01:00:51):
shouldn't have been conflict.
And that was my booze, if youwill, that was my drug of choice
.
And doing more and more.
And when people would come andsay, all right, hey, we got this
by, we need or we need somethis case done, I was always
like, let me do it, I'm going todo it and I'm gonna do it my
way, which was always the mostthere's.

(01:01:11):
There's more than one way toskin a cat and I was always
choosing the most dangerous way,and so we always like to call
ourselves like the multi agencyhelp button.
So I've worked with HSI, atf,you know, us Marshals and FBI on
different cases, so you know tobe there dedicated, you see, on
a lot of these cases.

(01:01:31):
And when you go and do stuffwith the feds, like they slow
things down, they have a big,huge briefings.
You have a huge briefing packetand you do all this stuff,
everybody gets to see everybodyelse and for me that was like
was like guys, what's taking solong?
Let's, let's hurry up.
Like I was already gettingamped and juiced, I'm like I'm
trying to get.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
I gotta tell you a quick joke there about the feds.
I was a fed yeah yeah, my buddyand I will always call them the
bullshit ass feds, and that'sbecause it's shit, just like
this bullshit ass feds man, evenme, and being a fed, I say it
yeah, that's yeah for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Okay, brother, go on about these big long ass
briefings, because, yeah, theytake forever, man, and they do
and they're, and there's a goodpurpose behind it, but for me, I
all I could see is like you'retaking my drug away, like I'm
already getting amped up and ifI don't get to do something soon
I'm gonna start feelingwithdrawals, uh, and then so
that's what kind of you knowfueled my reckless behavior was

(01:02:27):
doing that stuff, and that, youknow, eventually that's what led
to me.
I mean, I made some recklessmoves the day I got shot, which
I understand fully.
Right, the guy that shot me isthe guy to blame for me getting
shot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Well, let's go into it.
Like what?
Was this a fed thing, or wasthis a local thing?

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
or so I eventually got transitioned over to what's
called our gun squad.
So it's a mix with atf, um andkansas city police department
and the atf does this in severaldifferent cities and we focus
on violent gun crime in kansascity.
So I would be the.
You know everybody had aspecialty.
I was the undercover.
You need me to go buy a gun orlarge-scale dope for these
long-term things?

(01:03:04):
That was me.
We had a social media guy whocould track all these people and
know all the networks.
We had our cell phone and GPSguys.
So everybody had their ownspecialty.
But we got so damn good Right,our, our chief of police
dictated that we were going togo after every homicide suspect

(01:03:25):
within an hour of the homicidehappening in Kansas City.
So you know, anywhere between150 and 180 homicides a year.
We're boots on the ground anhour within the shooting and you
know, ok, we think there's ahomicide, we're out and we're
tracking who we think thesuspect is.
Are we going to try to get back, be able to buy the homicide
gun?
We start arresting peoplebuying dope to try to get be

(01:03:47):
able to buy the homicide gun.
We start arresting peoplebuying dope and trying to get
people to flip and that's whatwe were doing.
So this guy his name was MarlonMack.
He was Oklahoma's most violentrobber.
He had moved up from Oklahoma.
He had, you know, been robbingplaces and he ended up robbing a
chicken and fish shop and thisgrad student, our local

(01:04:08):
university, missouri Kansas city.
He was working there and hecame in to rob the place and the
guy did everything right Hishands up, open the drawer, have
all the money and Marla Macended up shooting him.
He tried to run out and hestood over top of him and
executed him for no reason.
So we're tracking this guy andI'd been buying a couple of
years before.
I'd been buying heroin from hisgirlfriend.

(01:04:28):
I'm like we know this dude, weknow the girlfriend, where she's
living, so we do all of our youknow crazy cool.
You know investigativetechniques and cameras and all
these things we're doing andwe're had a hard time finding
him.
But we ended up tracking himdown.
Uh, on a sunday morning, july15th 2018 um, we found him.

(01:04:50):
Uh, he was driving aroundreally crazy, checking his tail.
But we're working on a skeletoncrew because we were only
supposed to do surveillance only, like we dictated.
We hadn't had a day off in fourweeks.
And our tack, our SWAT guyshadn't had a day off, and even
longer.
So they gave us two SWAT guys.
Hadn't had a day off and evenlonger.
So they gave us two SWAT guysand we had a team of like five
or six dudes and we followed himto this hotel and man it just

(01:05:15):
we couldn't really get a goodeyes on it.
It's right by the ArrowheadStadium, right by the Chiefs
Stadium.
We just couldn't get a good eyewhat room he's in, cause the
thought was we put him down inthis hotel room, we'll come back
tomorrow morning with a fullSWAT team and like take this
dude off.
And uh, I was like you know what, send me in.
That's my job, right?
I'm the UC guy, I'm just goingto.

(01:05:36):
This is just easy.
I'm going to get out on foot.
I'm going to go to themanager's office.
I was going to rent a room,hang there all night if I had to
, um, but I would also see if Icould, you know, stay in there
long enough to see what roomhe's coming in and out of.
And when I walked into manager'soffice, like boom, he's right
there waiting, oh shit for themanager.
So like he wouldn't even movehis legs.

(01:05:56):
So I had to like step over hislegs to step in the door of this
and it's like it's a crap hole,motel, right.
The manager's office is like 10foot by 10 foot, maybe
Bolt-proof glass all around.
So I was like ding this guy'sin a cage Like he can't go
anywhere.
So I start calling in like hey,you two guys, our SWAT guys,
come in.
You could just like surroundand call out this guy, wait him

(01:06:19):
out forever and ourcommunications dropped so nobody
caught any of this stuff.
So it took me about a minute toget my phone back up and get
ahold of him and say like hey,come, get him.
By that time he made it to hiscar, right as they screamed up
to the back bumper.
So, uh, I'm watching this thingfrom like 20 feet away, cause

(01:06:40):
the parking lot's tiny, it holdslike five cars and you have to
almost do like a three-point,like austin powers turn, to be
able to get out.
Um, but man, yeah, he uh looked, looked right back at him and
he kind of like had a weird lookon his face, like really calm.
He sat down in his car, slowly,shut his door and they're doing
the whole felony car check.
So it's like, hey, it's justgonna go on, his passenger gets

(01:07:02):
out, hands up and is not evennot even acknowledging their
existence.
He's just gonna go on, hispassenger gets out, hands up and
is not even, not evenacknowledging their existence.
He's just like slow walkingright.
So I, first time in forever thatI'd ever worked undercover work
man I.
I ran up to my SWAT guy and Iwas like, hey, dude, I need a
gun.
Like surely, swat guys, youguys got guns everywhere.
They're like ricky, what getthe fuck out of here, man?

(01:07:22):
And at that point Marlon stepsout of his car with this AK
pistol and just barrages theshit out of us.
So he charged the car and so wedisplaced back behind the
Explorer and tried to make itaround.
And Mike was the driver of ourpolice car and he got shot like

(01:07:45):
four times and him and hispartner start trying to flank
him.
Well, I'm in the middle of thislittle tiny parking lot with not
that a vest would do anything,we both know that.
But you know, I've got no gun,nothing.
And so I'd gotten hit twice inmy left knee, right out the gate
, man.
So my leg was pretty trashedand it was almost like, uh, you

(01:08:06):
know, if you've ever seen a baddeer hunter shoot a deer,
unfortunately in the leg.
So that was me hopping andrunning away, uh, as he chased
me through the parking lot.
So he ended up firing at melike 22 times, got me six.
But uh, I, I, it was likeintentional thinking as I ran,
it was almost like when I wouldplay, uh, you know, with we

(01:08:27):
actually dangerously as a kid inthe neighborhood.
We would play with BB guns,like war.
So you run if somebody isshooting at you, you run in a
zigzag pattern and that's what Idid, just enough.
So he caught me my right legtwice, my left knee twice, um,
he caught my forearm and then myuh left humerus broke my arm.
So luckily it didn't blow anyof my appendages off, but you

(01:08:51):
know, pretty close to it so whathappened to him?
he got away right there.
Um, as you know, as mike andhis partner were trying to
displace and run around, hejumped back in his car and just
backed and pushed the police carout of the way and drove off
and of course, our guys followedhim.
He went to, uh, abandoned house.
Um, you know a couple, he, hedished his car, ran across the

(01:09:16):
interstate 70 and then went tothis abandoned house and he
holed up and uh, you know,really, it was a quick thinking
from our analyst who was runningour radio and she would always
do our, you know, if we're outin the field.
She was running license platesand doing all of our background
stuff and she's, you know, awhiz at what she does.
She happened to be working.
She started makingnotifications before anything

(01:09:38):
Like, hey, get in here.
So people came in.
I mean, it was a Sunday at 11o'clock in the morning, get in
here.
So people came in.
I mean, it was a Sunday at 11o'clock in the morning,
everybody starts coming in and ateam of guys or some citizens
said, hey, looking for a guywith an AK 47.
He just went in that house,yeah, yeah.
So it had been a little bitsince that guy had seen him go
in there.
So they thought, okay, he's kindof making moves Like he's

(01:10:01):
trying to get back to hisgirlfriend's house.
And uh, they thought, well,let's just sweep this house real
quick.
It's all burned out, abandoned.
Um, and it said they were.
They got a shield and startedworking towards the door.
Uh, he started raining downshots on him.
So it was about an hour hourand a half of shootout with him,
um, several hundred roundsbetween them all, and he shot

(01:10:23):
another officer.
So me, mike and my buddy buckall got shot that day.
But uh, so another officer gotshot and when he was getting low
on ammo he kicked the back dooropen and came out scarface
style, uh, spraying theperimeter.
And um, yeah, obviously youknow you have to do what you do.
At that point and he succumbedto whatever bullet wounds how

(01:10:44):
many ever number he got.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
So, fuck man.
So when you get shot and you'relike huh, this sucks, I mean I
mean serious, I mean what, whatgoes through your like I've
never been shot.
Um, I didn't know You're my man.
I mean I man, I mean I didn'tknow it at first it's, that's a
big ass round, man.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
A 760 by 39 is a big ass round I felt the one that
hit, the first one that hit myright calf, and I'd already been
shot in the left knee and Ididn't even know it.
And so when I got away aroundthis privacy fence, I start
checking the important stuff mychest and my crotch I'm like,

(01:11:24):
okay, I'm good.
And I remember, looking down atmy right calf I was like, okay,
there's, you know, there's someblood there, but it's not that
bad.
I thought maybe, maybe it likekicked up a rock or something.
So I took a step and my leftleg buckled.
I had like, look down, I'm likethis is weird, like what?
I don't feel any pain.
And I looked down and I waslike, oh boy, that's not, you

(01:11:45):
know, because I had really baggyshorts.
So I like pull the shorts up,like this is bad.
So the guy that had dropped meoff he had screamed up and you
know was like dude, get in, getin, get in.
I'm like I'm shot, like darn it.
So I get in his car and he'slike we're going straight to the
hospital, like whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, hold up.
Like just take me to my car,you get back in it.

(01:12:05):
I promise I'll go.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Yeah, you're in shock .

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Yeah, totally, 100%, had no clue what was going on.
But even crazier is when westart driving towards the
hospital was the same time thatMarlon pulled out of the hotel
drive and I was like dude, dude,that's his car right there,

(01:12:29):
pull like, give me your gun,pull up next to him, I'm just
gonna execute the shit out ofhim, like that was my plan.
He's so brian, and the guy wasdriving.
He's like yeah, ricky, we'regoing to the hospital, we're not
doing that son of a gun.
So, um, all of our go bag stuffwas in the trunk of this.
You know, piece of crap, chevycruze that can't go over 50
miles an hour apparently.
Uh, so I like to make homemadetourniquets, tie them on myself,
um, you know, on the way there.
So I'm like I'm starting tolook.

(01:12:50):
I'm like dude, like I'm shotmore than once.
He's like it's okay, dude, it'sokay we're, we're just gonna go
to the hospital.
I'm like, yeah, okay, okay.
But I mean I felt like theburning sensation and, uh, I was
more mad.
Uh, if anything, though, likeI'm clearly shocked, but I was.
I felt like I was on theplayground and I got punched in

(01:13:11):
the face and I didn't ever get achance to punch the dude back
out.
So I was like, dude, I promiseyou I'm good, like let's just
keep.
Because at that point we couldhear marlon ditched his car and
he's on foot running.
I was like, dude, I promise youI'm good, like I'll just stay
in the car, just give me anothergun and like put us on a
perimeter somewhere.
So, um, you know, it took evenafter a couple hours sitting in

(01:13:34):
the hospital before I realizedthe gravity of you know what my
injuries really were physically.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Yeah, yeah, when you get hit that way and it's
devastating, even one of thoserounds.
But imagine like six of them.
I mean you don't have toimagine, but I'm just saying
people out there.
Imagine six of them.
All of a sudden you're here andyou're in this hospital and
everybody else is in a fight andall you want to be is in the
fight and your mind is still inthe fight, you're still in shock

(01:13:59):
, and but then you're like huh,what about your family, man?
What happened next?
That's what I'm thinking.
I'm like, once you have alittle time, your adrenaline
starting to burn off and you'relike well, my leo family's out
there.
They're all still getting shotup and doing this and that and
everything.
You want to be with them, butwhere's your support network at
this time?

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
dude, I felt you want to talk about blame and guilt.
I'm the one that started this.
Right, this was surveillance.
Only, I called the audible, Imade them come in, I got them
shot.
You know, I well, you, you wantto talk about a piece of the
blame pie.
I took every fucking piece ofit and I, I took, I took that
and I felt so much shame andguilt, especially when I heard

(01:14:41):
Buck got shot, because you knowhow it is right.
Oh, someone still got shot.
Well, how bad is it?
People had already texted myhigh school buddy's, also a cop.
They texted him and said, hey,cartwright's dead, he got shot
and he's dead.
I mean, people were alreadyhearing that I got shot and I
was dead.
So I'm hearing Buck is not goodand I'm like like man and you

(01:15:03):
talk, I mean, I was, that was aspiral for me.
And then so brian, the guy thatdrove me, he, he, he's like
dude.
Let me have your phone, I'mgonna call your wife.
I'm like dude, bad idea, allright, I'm just pretty, pretty
calm about all this stuff.
I'm kind of laughing likethat's just a terrible idea,
brian, don't do that.
I said get a hold of my oldboss, deb, my, my you know old

(01:15:23):
patrol boss.
And uh, get a hold of deb, oldboss, deb, my old patrol boss.
And I said, get a hold of Deb.
She loves my wife to death.
My wife loves her to death.
That's who you need to call toget a hold of my wife for this.
But, as it turns out, my wifeone of her really good friends,
her husband's one of our eliteSWAT guys.
We call them SNU tech, ourstreet narcotics unit tech.

(01:15:44):
They're like, if you will, ournavy seals of tech guys.
Those are the guys when stuffgoes bad, they're not doing
surrounding call outs, they'rekicking the door in and they're
coming in to save your ass.
And those who always protectedus.
And so they all were coming in,because mike was one of those
guys, you know, they're the bestof our best, and so their
entire team, who hadn't had aday off.
Now they're feeling guilty toobecause they, like, they decided

(01:16:05):
to take off and this is whathappened.
So, uh, but his wife is friendswith my wife and my buddy and uh
, so she knew.
So she called my wife.
I was like, hey, I'm so sorry,I'm coming over, I'm gonna get
the girls, my wife's.
Like, what the hell are youtalking about?
She had no clue.
And then brian calls her.
She's like hold on, hold on.
I'm gonna switch over realquick.

(01:16:25):
He's like, hey, everything'sokay, he's fine, he's alive.
You just imagine the panic,right I mean my wife very
emotional anyway, sweetest womanin the world and she's and
nobody will tell her whathappened.
Her friend won't tell her,brian wouldn't tell her exactly
what happened or how bad I am.
She didn't know what she waswalking into.

(01:16:45):
Police car comes and picks herup, brings her to the hospital
and they've got me laying in thesame bed that I came in and
laid on in the triage.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Oh, so you're all bloody and shit I'm all bloody.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
They've got my wounds exposed because you know
they're like well, we've salinedand rinsed them out, we've
stopped the bleeding.
Let's wait until we getsurgeons here and let's figure
shit out.
So here I am.
I mean I can see my tendons,you can see my kneecap is all
crooked, it's bad.
And she walks into it has acomplete, terrible panic attack.

(01:17:18):
And that spiraled me at thatpoint Because at first I was
like joking with people, lettingthem know I'm okay.
There's a couple of pictures ofme thumbs up and smiling and it
broke my heart and I startrealizing, you know, the gravity
of what I've been doing andthat it doesn't just affect me,
because I think that was a thingI had been doing for a long
time.
It's like I didn't think aboutit.

(01:17:38):
You can't think about your wifeand kids while you're doing
really dangerous shit, right?
Because if you do, you won't beable to do it and do it
effectively and you can maybemake mistakes and that gets you
hurt or killed, because in thisline of work those were mistakes
now?

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
did you have kids back then too, or?

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
yeah, oh shit.
So when I got shot at, myoldest was eight, my youngest
was five, so, and you know they,all they ever knew was you know
, dad is ricky.
So I don't even think they evenknew what my real name was.
Uh, I don't even think theyeven knew what my real name was.
Uh, I don't think they realizedbrent was my first name but uh
they knew me as ricky, long hair, greasy, uh, you know, terrible

(01:18:15):
looking.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
So yeah, but they're at that weird point where they
really don't have any ideawhat's going on when dad's in a
hospital, you know yeah, I, Ikept begging.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
I was like, hey, can you, you know, can you bring my
girls to me, can you get me mygirls?
And they, uh, my wife's likehey, let's just let some stuff.
Cool.
They brought them eventuallythat night.
But, like I, for all the timesthat I've done all kinds of
crazy stuff and, you know,didn't think about my family.
That's all I could think about.
I just, you know, wanted somekind of like calm normalcy.

(01:18:44):
Uh, but I wascy, but I was justin a terrible place and my wife
could see it and she's likelet's just hold on, they don't
need to be in this madness,let's not traumatize them just
yet.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
So, literally, the smoke settled, he's dead.
You're in a bed Incredibleguilt.
You're going to be stuck therefor a while and we know it's
almost like a jail cell being ina damn bed, because in a way
it's almost worse because youcan't even get up to move and
walk and clear your head.
You're stuck there, you'relaying in this bed and you're

(01:19:19):
like.
You know you got the peoplethat show up here and there, but
how long were you in thehospital?

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
for Six, you know you got the people that show up
here and there.
But how long were you inhospital?
For Six and a half days, okay.
And they finally released me soand yeah, so they cleared
people out of rooms.
They put us three in a roomside by side, so, and then we
put a guard and somebody with me24-7.
I eventually canceled all.
I was in such a guilt-riddenspot.
I canceled all visitors.
I was like like, hey, I don't,I don't want anybody in here

(01:19:44):
besides my family.
If you're not my family, I'msorry, go away.
I'm tired of.
I looked at myself like peoplewere looking at me like I was uh
like a zoo, like an animal in azoo, like they want to just
come take in the crime scenetype looking stuff.
Yeah.
But across the hall from me wasuh, where all these awesome

(01:20:04):
restaurants and businesses andpeople donated food and drinks
and snacks, all the things.
So all the nurses that weretaking care of us and the
doctors I mean all the peoplevisiting always had something to
eat and that's where peoplewere hanging out and I'd hear
all the laughter and the jokingand you know cause.
Again, I don't expect people tobe solemn and you know crying
and being in the pit that I wasin, but it would piss me off.

(01:20:28):
I'm like man, I'm in a terriblemental place because I just
created this whole freaking mess.
Three cops are shot.
Huge, big failure.
The mission was a failure.
I'm a failure.
I'm like.
And now here I get to have tolisten to these guys across the
hall and girls and women andlaughing and joking and cutting
up eating all the snacks andstuff and so and of course I was

(01:20:49):
put on initially put onrestrictions for food because I
was getting ready to do surgery.
So I'm starving and I'm like,okay, this fucking sucks.

Speaker 1 (01:20:58):
And you know, I would like to say that even you took
the actions that 90% of thepeople would have done that day
anyway, took the actions that 90of the people would have done
that day anyway going there.
And you, because I mean, listen, you're, you're even on
surveillance.
You want to know where thesuspect's at.
Who would have thought he wouldbe in the office at that any
time.
I mean, really it's not.
I mean, I'm just saying this islike the you know armchair

(01:21:20):
quarterback in here.
But obviously, me, looking backand hearing this story, I know
that you did what anybody elsewould have done and yeah, you
could have been a littlereckless or anything else like
that, but most cops would havedone the same thing.
They would have been like, oh,go in there, let's see what's
going on, we'll get a room,we'll set up surveillance, but
it's just that shit hit the fanand bad, like worse than you

(01:21:41):
could ever possibly imagine.
And you know what.
This same scenario has probablyhappened a million times before
, where cops are going to likeyou know they're, they're
setting up on a target and youknow they go to a hotel or this
and that, but the suspect beingthere, but not just the suspect
being there, but being a violentdrop of the hat suspect you
know.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Yeah, no, and I get, I get you know.
Yeah, no, and I get, I get.
So, like with therapy, right,I've played this out like, okay,
how else would you?
What else, what?
How, let's play this outseveral different ways, how you
could have done things different, and then how would it have
played out?
And so, like, beyond the whatifs that I did post getting out
of the hospital because I playedsome freaking crazy what if
games right, you're right, Ialways carry like a little pen

(01:22:24):
or screwdriver.
I should have ran around thecar and jumped on him and
stabbed him in the eyeball likeall the crazy shit would have
been great for movie fodder,totally would have got me killed
.
Um, I played those.
But then we played the realwhat ifs, like, okay, so you
didn't, you know, if you got,went in there and got out and
you didn't call him in, he'sstill running around armed.
It's eventually like the kindof evil guy that was was going

(01:22:46):
to be a shootout, like one wayor the other.
That guy is responsible and hemakes some really dangerous
decisions, because that's whatreally bad people do.
So I was like, well, ok, well,you know what if somebody else
got out on foot and I didn't, orwhat if I didn't?
Run up to the car and then hegot in a shootout and killed
Mike.
Like I mean, what if you didn't?

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
play.
What if he didn't play bb guns?
When you're a kid, you're doingserpentine yeah, serpentine
yeah so I mean it's.
I mean you laugh about it, butit's true like you think about
everything led you up to thispoint.
And now what happens is likeyou're at a point now in your
life where you have lessonslearned, and I think that's
where the book and I keep I'vebeen wanting to mention the book

(01:23:27):
Undercover Junkies it's comingout, but these are lessons.
Like cops need to know this.
Your whole career trajectoryneeds to be known, because
people are going to fall intothis.
They're going to fall into it.
They're going to.
You're going to put that badgeon.
You're going to get on thestreet.
You're going to burn out.
You're going to fall into it.
They're going to.
You're going to put that badgeon.

(01:23:47):
You're going to get on a street.
You're going to burn out.
You're going to get here.
And then you're going to get tothis point where you don't
think, you're thinking at an 80,75, 60% level when you should
be at a hundred percent level,thinking that it's never going
to happen.
But then this happens andyou're in it.
You're in a hospital bed forsix and a half days and your
career at this point is what 16,17 years in?

Speaker 2 (01:24:08):
yeah right 16 16 years in.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
So I mean you're not at that 20 year point, you're
not even at, you're not probablyin your mind, you're not even
thinking about.

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
And I was 20 years away from wanting to be done
yeah for sure.
Uh, yeah, I mean it's.
Uh yeah, the book.
It kind of was born out of,obviously, therapy writing and I
mean I wrote this out by hand,man, like six times, wrote it
out by hand, rewrote it, rewroteit and typed it out.

(01:24:38):
But, um, it was kind of bornwith the presentations and the
speaking that I do, becauseevery time I do it people are
like I know a guy like that andlike, but, or a lot of people
too, I see myself in yourstories because you see the
whole transition from you knownormal, you know pre, you know

(01:24:58):
military and in early years, andyou can see when you see it,
you can see it for what itreally is.
And it's not just a book aboutwar stories, because we all
could write a billion of those.
There's some strong messagingin it on self-awareness and
self-regulation and the thingsthat we do, like my wife when I
would come home and tell herabout oh, we worked this

(01:25:21):
homicide scene and this guy'shead was completely exploded and
you know, know, laugh about it.
Like I'm telling a lot of thesethings like they were in a
movie and not like what I'mreally engaging and doing.
Well, that's me completelyshuttling away from a traumatic
thing that I either saw,witnessed or was a part of, and
when we do that, that stuffstill is going to build up.

(01:25:41):
So, um, it's this great thingabout the book.
And that's all the reviews I've.
I've let some you know peoplehelp me out and do some advanced
reading on it, uh, and everyone of them like spot on this.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
This is I don't want to.
You know, the book is great,I'm gonna love reading it.
But you know, leading up to thebook there was that point where
you're, like I said, you're sixand a half days into it and to
the hospital and and then yourcareer is basically over.

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
Well, I went back.
I initially went back, um,beyond what and this is where we
get into some leadership talksuh about this is I have a severe
limp.
Um, I've got no uh feeling frommy mid thigh down and low,
limited motor control in my leftleg, and I was struggling

(01:26:31):
severely with some PTSD-typesituations.
That was not being treated wellat all, even with medication
and everything else.
I mean, I was still drinkingthat's where the drinking really
took off.
But about a year and a halflater I went still drinking.
That's where the drinkingreally took off.
But, uh, about a year and ahalf later I went back to work
in the same unit.
I just promised my wife Iwasn't going to buy dope because

(01:26:51):
, man, I was that fuckingaddicted.
Um, we got into a couple ofshootings and a couple of really
bad takeoffs and it tookeverything I had uh to.
Finally was on thanksgiving day.
Man, I raised my hand and Imade a.
I made a phone call to um, mycurrent therapist at the time,

(01:27:12):
and I said dude, I'm done, I'mdone, I can't do it, I'm just
gonna quit police.
I'm just, I'm not.
I'm not gonna look for anypension or that stuff, I'm just
gonna quit because I'm I justneed I'm gonna kill myself or
die eventually.
I'm going to die doing this andI I mean, I was drinking a fit,
almost a fifth a day just tosurvive and it wasn't.

(01:27:33):
Even that even wouldn't help,and I wasn't.
I sleep in three hours a night.
Maybe my nightmares are reallycrazy.
So, yeah, uh, that was thehardest decision ever just to
push that button and do what wasright for me and my family, and
I'm glad I did.
I mean, now I'm in a 10 timesbetter place, uh, you know all
around, but yeah, you have toregulate.

Speaker 1 (01:27:55):
And that's where the the the worst thing, man, I wish
I knew.
I wish I knew, I wish I couldhave told people, I wish I could
have told Jason, like when mykids were like, let's see, when
I was really drinking bad, theywere like around the same age,
like five and six, or four andsix, four and eight, something
like that, but it was like thatreally bad place.
And that's where, when you'retrying to overcome what's going,

(01:28:19):
the damage of your brain orwhat's going on in the trauma or
whatever on in the trauma orwhatever, and the same thing
probably happened to you whereyou get to that point where the
numbness doesn't just affect anappendage, the numbness affects
your brain, where you're like,well, maybe it's just, um, maybe
the, the fam be better offwithout me, you know, but it's
not even like, but it's, it'ssuch.

(01:28:40):
And I, whenever I talk topeople about like suicide and
stuff like that, I always tellthem that it's, it's not like a
selfish.
You don't at the time, youdon't feel like it's a selfish
thing.
Sometimes, at the time youthink it's like it'll be better,
people will be better offwithout you or their life would
go on, but your pain will begone are you sure your doctor

(01:29:01):
stuff is in?
not well, believe me, bro I wishI, you know, I always wanted to
be in this, the psychiatrything, like when I was a kid but
now man.
But it's the same.
It's like you get to thatnumbness, that numb point and I.
It's hard to explain suicide topeople unless you've had that,
that suicidal.
And it's not even.
I don't even know if it'sideation.

(01:29:23):
I think the ideation is whenyou talk about it, at the time
where you're telling people,you're searching, you're trying
to get help.
The real suicide thing comes inwhen people recognize it and
where it's like you would justdo it, you wouldn't even think
about it, you would be like,okay, I'll do it this way, you

(01:29:45):
don't tell anybody about it.
It's beyond suicidal ideation,it's.
It's.
It's at the point where it'slike you are so numb that your
mind shuts off your brain, youremotions shut off, because you
want them to shut off.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
You'll do anything to shut them off, but then you,
the only thing that saved me wasthinking about the ripple
effect with my kids that's whoeventually I mean that's who
gets hurt on all this right andpeople see it as a selfish move,
and I can understand that, um,but with all of this, like you
don't, you never reallyunderstand how painful being in

(01:30:20):
that hole is until you'reactually in it.
So my buddy, my high schoolbuddy, school buddy he's, you
know, tbi guy from all hisdeployments and he, uh, I always
gave him a lot of credit.
Man, I love that kid to death.
He's an amazing man and amazingperson.
But when I thought I was givinghim enough, like you know,
credit for, like man, I, man, Ireally totally get what you're

(01:30:42):
going through and all this stuffuntil Until I was in a similar
place as him, you just don't.
You just it's hard to explain,right, you just don't know what
it really and it's bad.
That area is bad to be in andyou're like, what can I do to
fix it?
But it's not even like fixingit, because fixing it is 10

(01:31:03):
times harder than I would haveever guessed.
Like going through the therapyand the process and making that
commitment to get better was abitch, it was total bitch.
It sucked, very painful, verytough.
You just want to give up andthat's that's again like
drinking was the easy button toget some sleep.
There seems like some easierbuttons to just give up.

(01:31:25):
Um, but you know, you got tolook at we're warriors, first
and foremost, we're warriors andthere's there's a way to get
out of it.
That isn't giving up I thinkit's finding.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
You know, I used to have a you know I always call
things a foothold like I alwaysfelt like you, I needed a
foothold out of the grave, butsometimes you had that foothold
into the grave, but once youfind a light, and to me it was
always like I had to findsomething to keep my mind from

(01:31:58):
the pain.
So that's where all this.
You know, people are like well,why'd you get a doctorate,
why'd you do this, why'd you dothat?
And I tell you, I've done allthis, even to this day.
I'm always doing a milliondifferent things, because when I
stop and think and slow down iswhen the pain happens.
But to this day it's different.

(01:32:21):
I'm at the point now where I'mlike, when I slow down, I like
to be on a walk, I like to seenature, I like to see parts of
this world that aren't part ofthe status quo that I've always
had.
To me it's always been likeguns and shooting and law
enforcement and military andpodcasting and writing and this
and that and everything.
But I tell you what.

(01:32:41):
You bring me up into the woods,man, and I finally get back to
that.
That point I was when I was akid.
I love being in the woods as akid.
I love seeing nature and I lovejust being clear something very
therapeutic about the woods.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
I'm a big hunter.
I love turkey hunting more thananything uh, deer hunting I
even so I started bringingpeople.
We have a small farm, uh, herein northern missouri.
I would bring people who youknow have trauma and haven't
hunted and bring them out there.
Like you see, the batteries getrecharged and I think all

(01:33:14):
that's important.
So I had a really good friend,john uh came and talked to me.
He's still in our department.
Um, he's a the firearmsinstructor, but he came to talk
to me after I got out of thehospital.
He's a the firearms instructor,but he came to talk to me after
I got out of the hospital.
He's like dude, you need to finda way to get away and don't
make police and everything yourentire family Like when you get
away, leave your phone at homeand get out and just be away.

(01:33:37):
And I think that's what a lot ofpeople fail to do, because
eventually, just like militaryor your career is going to end
at some point and when you aregone you're going to realize you
were a cog in a wheel that'sgoing to be replaced.
90% of those people, I mean,I'm retired now from the police
department and I don't talk tohardly any of them, not because

(01:33:59):
of choice, right.
Their lives move on andeventually they're going to
retire.
They're going to be in the sameboat.
So if you have done nothing butsurround yourself with that
family and everything, you'regoing to feel a really big, big
loss the moment you get out.
And if you don't have adifferent hobby, that's
completely opposite from this,and I love shooting too and we

(01:34:19):
do that here as a family andsome friends and stuff.
But getting out and just beingaway, traveling is awesome, as
long as you can put that phoneaway and not tie back into work
or other stuff.
That just takes you away frombeing in the moment where you
are now and that's why.

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):
You know what, bro?
I, why, who did?
Why didn't someone tell us this?
13, 14?
Because I'm thinking like I'mgonna be 52 in two days and I'm
like I'm finally almost to apoint where my mind is clear.
You know, I still get someshitty days, but I'm almost at
that point where my mind isalmost clear.
A lot of my clarity comes frombeing away from all this stuff.

(01:34:57):
Why can 37 year old me, when Iwas in like some of the darkest
days, the numbness, why couldn'tI just take a fucking weekend
by myself or with the kids orwhatever, and just take a walk
in the woods?
I mean, just do something.
You know, I, I always tellpeople walk, because a lot of
people they don't want to runand walking is just, it's just

(01:35:18):
something that you just you geta clear mind when you get to a
certain point.
But that is one thing I mean wetalk about, about therapy, we
talk about group thought.
But sometimes you really justneed like an escape from like
the social media, from the, fromthe, from the phone, from the
work, from the life, andsometimes you need a break from

(01:35:40):
the family too.
Man, I mean sometimes you'relike, you're like the sole solid
brick, that for the family, andsometimes you need a break from
that yeah, I, I mean everybodyshould do it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
I'm with you too, all right.
Well, running is a little toughfor me, so walking is my, my
mode anyway, but it's similar towriting, I mean, that's why I
wrote stuff by hand.
First, you have to slow yourmind down, and the way to do it,
you can think too fast ifyou're typing.
So, getting out, even just goand sit down in woods, that's, I
mean.
My high school biology teacherused to make us do that as a

(01:36:15):
project and I completely forgotabout that until I now do it
myself.
We'll go and just sit, becauseonce you disturb nature, right,
you're going to see nothing.
If you sit there for an hour,squirrels come out, the hawks
come out, you know, if you're inthere in the evening, the owls
will be out, the deer will comethrough, you'll start seeing all
kind, you'll hear all thenoises, and especially if you

(01:36:35):
can go out before the sun comesup and you sit down and hear the
woods wake up, and there'snothing more glorious than that
for sure I, uh, I'm, I keepgoing back to you getting shot
and you like turn in your badgeand but you, you've had to have
gotten, like after all yourtherapy where, and you know some
, when you leave law enforcement.

Speaker 1 (01:36:55):
I think a lot of times suicide happens then
because you're out of thatbrotherhood, you're out of that
sisterhood, you're out of thatcamaraderie and, and to me it
wasn't about really losing thebadge and taking the badge off
for the last time, it was notbeing around people and not
having that identity.
So what did you?

(01:37:15):
What was your first, what wasyour pivot point from that point
, like when you left?

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
um, well, so they pulled.
Initially, they pulled me fromduty and just told me go sit at
home until we retire you.
And so, at that point, man, itwas, shame was abound on that.
I was like man, I can't.
Uh, you know, here I am now.
Uh, they cleared me to work somemagical way.
Uh, which you won't get intoabout physically, but so
mentally, is why they retired me.

(01:37:42):
So, like man, you talk aboutsome shame, man, that brought it
to me.
And now they're well, this guycan't do the work.
So, um, I had a really darkpart of that, and that's where I
eventually found Dr Prohaska,and she, you know, did wonders
and put me through the right,you know, therapy stuff.
But so, after years of that, asyou know, that took them a

(01:38:03):
while to finally run through itscourse, to finally retire me,
and by that point, though, I'dgotten so much more clear and so
much better, which is where,you know, I start going around,
people start hearing my story,and I'm getting flooded with
calls like, hey, man, we needyou to come in and tell this,
and that became my purpose,right, as a mission.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
I mean you need another mission.
Your pivot point has to be amission, brother.
I mean you never let a goodminute.
Uh, you need another mission.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Your, your pivot point has to be a mission yeah,
so I mean I talk in differentconferences, you know, go and
talk and tell them my story andpeople want to hear the
undercover stories and I get it.
You know the voracic part ofthat is is very entertaining,
don't get me wrong.
But every one of them get themessage and they understand it.
And when people come up oremail me, call me, I make myself

(01:38:50):
available to everybody.
Man, I hate, maybe that's partof it too.
I need people to talk to, so Ilike to start a podcast.
Why do you think I do a podcast?
But yeah, man, it makes senseand purpose of especially my
journey Because, again,undercover work was great and we

(01:39:10):
put some people away for somelong time and really changed
society, but at a big cost.
And if I can help people notcatch that same cost and be able
to be happy and survive and toget to retirement, and then hey,
hey, man, if you start lawenforcement too, like early on,
you can be retired at 50 orsooner whoa, what's up?

(01:39:32):
hey, you got like 20 more years.
You need to do some stuff,right?
I mean, you got to havesomething to do.

Speaker 1 (01:39:37):
But can we say more than 20 bro?
Can we say like 40?

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
well, I mean well, you'll be around for longer than
okay.

Speaker 1 (01:39:42):
Maybe you only work for 20 more.
Live more I want to live morethan 20 years.

Speaker 2 (01:39:50):
Eventually, I plan on hanging it up completely and
traveling before I can't be asmobile as I need to be.
I'm not going to be climbing upMount Everest or anything like
that.
You definitely got to havesomething to do.
This is my calling now.
The book was awesome to be ableto help supplement.
I can't get in front ofeverybody and not everybody will

(01:40:11):
have me either, but if I canget this book in people's hands
and they can see the samejourney as if I'm sitting there
talking, and I'm hoping that alot of departments and agencies,
and even not just lawenforcement I mean mean, if you
have a, you know lawyers are thesame way defense lawyers.
You're telling me that they'renot losing themselves in their

(01:40:31):
environment and that they'restressed the hell out because
they're doing things againsttheir morals and values to get
people off.
I mean, it's your job.
Yeah there.
I mean any high stressenvironment is going to deal
with almost the exact samethings that I did High-stakes
sales corporate world.
I mean, come on.

Speaker 1 (01:40:49):
Stress is stress, man , stress is stress.
And we talked about suicidebefore.
But suicide doesn't matter ifyou have a badge, suicide
doesn't matter if you're asalesman, salesgirl, sales,
whatever.
Yeah, it doesn't matter who youare or what you are, it hits
and sometimes all you need isone light bulb to go off in your
head, one light bulb to go.

(01:41:10):
Oh, okay, well, I see lifedifferently now and so and to me
it's stories, you know, and youbrought up a damn good point,
man, I love to write, I love thetype, but when I start writing
on paper and pen it's different.
You slow down Even journaling.
I tell people all the time I'mlike start a journal, nobody

(01:41:34):
will ever have to read it,nobody will ever have to read it
.
You could just write a journal.
It could be as simple as like.
I had this cup of coffee todayand it had oat milk in it and
the design was great, but thattaste, when I first, when I
first tasted it, it's justanything right about anything,
man.

(01:41:54):
You know, a bird just flew byand it was like so cool to think
about where'd that bird fly to.
Today, you know any right aboutanything, because what it does
is it gives your mind like peacefor a little while.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
Yeah, and I, I, um, I think that's important.
I also think it's important ifyou write about your experiences
and your work, of what you did,because I was fortunate that I
had a pretty good memory of thethings that I had done, so it
was easy to get them out and putthem on paper.
But a lot of the people I justtalked to yesterday they were
like hey, I sent a big, hugeemail to basically tell people

(01:42:34):
about this book that I workedwith.
Because I kept it secret,because we let our work speak
for us.
If you start talking about yourwar stories and bragging about
things, then you it's frownedupon as taboo, right?
Nobody wants to brag or you letyour results, you know, speak
for you.
But I wanted to let them knowlike, hey, I'm doing this and

(01:42:55):
I've done this and there's apurpose behind it.
I'm not just telling ourstories, so, uh, but I think
it's important for people tojoin.
I told them all this like youguys need to write it down.
Most of them said man, I reallywish I had done this early on
too it's almost like takingpictures.
Yeah, like in our uc days, wetook a lot of pictures, thank
goodness, because I've got a lotof crazy looks and appearances
and the things we look like andwe're like.

(01:43:17):
We always look back and like man, I wish we would have taken
more.
I think people should shouldwrite more, and it's therapeutic
and if you can really get thereal feeling on what you were
feeling then and there, I thinkit also helps you from getting
down this darker path because Iwas numbed out so much I
eventually lost feeling.
But if I could realize like hey, I'm not feeling like brett

(01:43:40):
wouldn't really do this and ifI'm at a point where I'm not
recognizing myself in my writing, then I should be able to see
that there's a change going onin me.
That's probably not good and Ithink if you start journaling
about what you're doing likethat even if it's just weekly
you didn't have to be every dayI think you can start to see the
changes before you get down toa spot where people like Dr

(01:44:04):
Prask have a hard time fixingyou type thing.

Speaker 1 (01:44:08):
I tell you what, man, if you could go anywhere in the
whole world and travel and seewhere would you go.
Just you Don't think about yourfamily and nobody else, just
you.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
I've already been there and I'd love to just go
and take it all in for a longer,extended time.
And it's Yellowstone, and do it?
Not the tourist?
I mean I love the outdoors thatmuch, so I know that.
Uh, you know, for me I'd liketo go, you know also.
I mean, you know I give youlike a whole list of stuff, but
like to see the stuff from WorldWar II and Normandy.

(01:44:44):
I know it's not as great as itprobably could be from what I've
heard and seen in pictures andstuff, but for me, if I was
going to be able to get a chanceto do my thing, hit Yellowstone
but get out backpack, hike inand get out and camp out there
and trying to get eaten by agrizzly, but to be able to take
in just that, just how magicalthat place really is in its own

(01:45:04):
setting, undisturbed away fromthe crowds, and take it in for
what our country really has fora natural resource.

Speaker 1 (01:45:13):
That's it.
Well, brother, I appreciate youcoming on, but I do want to put
out there everybody like we'vehad a pretty deep conversation
today, a lot of talk aboutsuicide, a lot of talk about
really deep pain, abouttransitioning and pivoting
everybody.
But if anybody does need help,please reach out to someone,
anybody.
Get your texts out there, talkto someone If you notice anybody

(01:45:34):
around you.
You might not notice thesymptoms right away of them
going through a tough time, butplease reach out.
Never, ever, be alone.
Don't try to tackle this withbooze and addiction or or any
other vice, but there are peopleand once you see that light
bulb go off, man, your, yourlife will change.
But, brent man, I'm reallylooking forward to this book.

(01:45:56):
Undercover junkie BrentCartwright.
Thanks for coming on, brother.

Speaker 2 (01:46:00):
Hey, I really appreciate it, man, thank you.

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520 | Brent Cartwright | NOTE Sensitive Topics Covered (Suicide & Addiction)

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