526 | Dr. Jena Casas, PhD

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This episode provides an exploration of the often overlooked mental health issues facing rural law enforcement officers. Stressors like isolation, limited resources, and the pressures of the job create significant mental health challenges. We share stories from the field and emphasize the importance of seeking help before reaching a breaking point. Our guest highlights the necessity of mental health training within law enforcement culture and discusses various accessible resources for mental wellness.

• Examining the realities of rural law enforcement
• Discussing mental health challenges unique to rural officers 
• Importance of seeking preventative mental health support 
• Finding the right mental health professional 
• The role of peer support programs 
• Importance of incorporating mental wellness into basic and ongoing officer training
• The journey towards better mental and emotional well-being 
• Strategic insights for managing job-related stress 
• Recognizing that mental health is an ongoing journey, not just a response to crisis

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey, welcome back to the protectors episode 500 plus.
But Dr Jenna cost us on todayand you know what I had to hit
record.
Jenna Casas on today and youknow what I had to hit record.
I had to hit record right awaybecause we got into a topic that
just boom, something that hitme probably about 70 months ago.
I ended up in the middle ofnowhere in Nebraska delivering
tourniquets to a small policedepartment as part of the
Protectors Foundation.

(00:37):
That's a little plug there, butpart of the foundation is to
give equipment and training tosmall departments.
Now when I went out there Italked to these cops.
There was three of them, threetheir nearest backups, 30, 40
minutes away.
Life flight.
The nearest city is probablyOmaha or wherever it's.
It's going to be a long time.
You have three cops out there,I get.

(00:59):
I was going to give them a fewtourniquets Cause I was like, ah
, you know what, they justreplaced the ones on our belt.
We I was going to give them afew tourniquets because I was
like, hey, you know what, theyjust replaced the ones on our
belt.
We could talk and see what elsethey need later on.
But then I thought about it.
They have schools out there and, god forbid, there was a mass
casualty event.
So I gave them all thetourniquets I had and I'm
thinking to myself can youimagine you are your own backup

(01:21):
and you never know what's goingto happen next?
Your own backup, and you neverknow what's going to happen next
?
And when you're in these ruralareas, there's a lot of people
that are semi-proficient infirearms as well.
And what if you just have avehicle roll over?
What if there's mass casualties?
There's so many things youcould actually put on their
plate.
That has got to go throughtheir mind.

(01:41):
So when we started talking,before I hit record, you were
mentioning that, so let's getright into that.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, yeah.
First, thanks for having me onthe podcast.
I'm super excited and I'm gladthat we started out with this
topic specifically because thisis a big passion of mine the
realities of rural work.
I'm a clinical and police andpublic safety psychologist in
the state of Nevada and most ofour counties are rural.
We have 17 counties and outsideof basically Washoe County,

(02:08):
which is where I reside in, orClark County, home to Las Vegas
you're looking at, there beinghuge geographical barriers that
make the realities of ruralpolicing intense.
You pointed to some other pieceshere that it's a big component
of what I do when I work withofficers or agencies managing
stress, but the insufficientresources.

(02:29):
Some of the counties, some ofthe police departments or
sheriff's offices, they have asfew as five employees working
for them.
Some of the larger quoteunquote ones that I work with
maybe have a hundredcommissioned staff members.
So we're not talking these hugedepartments that you may see in
LA County or New York PoliceDepartment.

(02:52):
These are small agencies.
Everybody knows everybody.
You're on call 24 seven.
You have a take-home vehiclebecause you may be the backup
even though it's your day off.
You know you have a take-homevehicle because you may be the
backup, even though it's yourday off.
You may have had every positionin that department, because
there just aren't peoplelateraling in.
So these are some of therealities of police work, and

(03:15):
I'm excited to get into itdeeper with you.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
The realities of police work out.
There, too, is money, and whenyou think about counseling, like
, like, listen, I was a fed for23 years.
I used my employee assistanceprogram numerous times,
especially like during thecritical phases my my career,
and I've also had good insurance.
So my co-pay has always beenanywhere between 20 and 30

(03:39):
dollars.
But if you were in one of these, in these, you may not have
access to either for one, havinga counselor that you can trust
in your area, and you may haveto go remote.
But what if you're not remotesavvy?
What if you don't feel likeopening up?
I cycled through five or sixcounselors before I landed on

(03:59):
one that could kind of relate.
But what if you're out thereand you don't have one access to
money you know that's going topay for.
Sometimes hey, listen,counselors are can be expensive.
They can be pricey one 50, 200an hour, if you're lucky, $75 an
hour.
So there's a lot more to tounpack there when it comes to
finding the help that you need.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Yeah, and I think something that can't be
understated about the seekinghelp, asking for help going down
that rabbit hole of you know Ifirst of all, I've asked for
help.
Now I'm in that trajectory ofunderstanding my insurance or
private pay.
Then you get into.
I'm actually attending thesessions.
Do I fit in with the person atall?
No, I don't.
Now, how do I find a second one?

(04:42):
In rural communities, I found anadditional challenge, which is
that they don't have as manyoptions of people to pick from
in the available area.
You pointed that out that maybethey have to use telehealth or
some other virtual platform tobe able to access care.
The other piece for firstresponders in general, but
definitely in law enforcement,is you work with these

(05:02):
professionals in a professionalcapacity in the community.
So there may be a communityclinic that has great providers,
but if you're dropping peopleoff, transporting them, managing
them, you know and you knoweverybody in the community you
may not feel as if that is anoption for you.
There's a lot of barriers toseeking that care at the same
place that you are.

(05:24):
You know, working in aprofessional capacity during
crises or emergencies, withWhether or not that actually is
a legitimate fear.
You know confidentiality is areal thing.
It's not that this providerwould be able to share your
details, it's that internalbarrier, that stigma.
You know this is for thecommunity, not for me.
What would they think about meif I am now utilizing this

(05:46):
service?
So I find in my ruralcommunities I have a lot greater
success giving them referrallists for people that they're
not going to see at the grocerystore.
They're not going's in state,so it's a problem.
When you're talking about theresearch supporting in-person or
telehealth services, is there adifference in that mode of
delivery?
A lot of times, no, there's not.
But it's that personalpreference preference.

(06:25):
If you want to be able to buildrapport with someone and you
want to have the safe spacewhere you feel it is private and
confidential, to let that guarddown.
Meeting the person and going totheir office is a benefit.
If you have high emotionaldistress or heavy trauma
exposure, sometimes in-person isbetter.
That's not possible, though, ifyou live in a rural area hours
away from an urban space withresources.

(06:47):
So this is a challenge.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
And we're going to help try to fix it, because one
thing you brought up there wastelehealth and in-person.
Now, when you're dealing withLEOs and I want to listen, this
is we're generalizing LEOs.
Every LEO has to deal withpeople in person.
I don't know one lawenforcement officer, agent,
special agent, any deputy, thathas never has to deal with

(07:12):
people in person.
So if there is one out there,there's one out there, but
everyone has also, in one pointof their career, interviewed and
interrogated someone andthey've built rapport.
They are.
They should have learned how tobuild rapport.
So when you're dealing with acounselor and this is what I
found when I dealt withcounselors and psychotherapists,

(07:35):
psychologists, any, all of themis that I could tell bullshit
right away, and it's a loteasier to tell bullshit right
away in person.
But I've also know you and withthe podcast, I can tell
bullshit person with with remote.
So you have to be able to, youhave to be authentic and you
have to find someone that'sauthentic, and I think one of
the options are is it's betterto find one remotely, and that's

(07:58):
what I'm preaching now is likeI would rather speak to one
remotely than not have one atall and have, or have the right
one, remotely than have one.
It's inadequate that I need totravel six hours for it because,
believe me, six hours one way,or four hours, two hours, even
an hour, someone who doesn'thave a lot of critical time to,
like you know, add in theirfamily kids, sports, all the

(08:20):
other stuff to take off and goto counseling to fix themselves
or help themselves.
It's tough.
So I think one of the optionsthat you brought up is great is
telehealth.
But have more options out thereto be able to have a list of
options, because you don't wantto.
It's not one size fits all withcounselors.
I tell you that right now, findone that you can stick with,

(08:42):
and it may be sticking with themfor six months to a year or
beyond.
So it's critical that you knowwhat you want to do before you.
It's like swiping right orswiping left.
You need to know what you'regetting into when you're, when
you decide to take that gestureto seek help I really love that
last point you made about knowwhat you're getting into.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
When you ask, you know you're trying to seek help,
because I agree that it ishelpful to have the right fit.
The one part that I've seenhappen more times than not is
somebody will eventually end upin my office or a colleague of
mine's, and it's the same thingevery time.
They'll say something like Iwent to a provider and they

(09:23):
didn't get me and they made mefeel bad in some way because I
told them a story that maybe washalfway traumatic and they
couldn't handle it.
Maybe they teared up or cried,maybe they in some way made a
comment that made the clientfeel like they did something
wrong.
They just didn't understand thejob or the demands of the job,

(09:46):
and so I'm a big proponent offinding the right fit, knowing
what you're getting into andrealizing that some care if it's
the wrong fit can actually beharmful.
Now that places a demand on theperson to seek care, to
actually do their homework.
And my advice for people whenthey're trying to do this
because, again, if you're goingto see somebody over telehealth,

(10:06):
you're not going to get more ofthose in-person indicators,
you're not going to get a chanceto drive to their office, see
what that looks like, feel howthey've set things up.
There's a lot of time andattention that comes into that
for clinicians.
What does the office space feellike?
What are they trying to signalto you about the way that they
decorate the office?
Are they creating a safer,private space for you?
You're not getting that intelehealth.

(10:28):
So if you have to do yourhomework, you're going to take
some time to figure out what'simportant to you.
So it's not.
You don't have to know.
Do I have depression?
Do I have anxiety?
Do I have post-traumatic stress?
That's our job as clinicians tobe able to figure out the
labels that fit.
But you do have to know what'simportant to you and is the

(10:49):
person going to understand that?
So if you're in law enforcementand that's a really big part of
your day and a really big partof your identity, it probably
makes sense that you find aclinician who specializes in
that and understands that workculture.
If it's just something you doand it's not a huge part of your
identity, then maybe you canfind a clinician who doesn't
know a lot about it but is opento learning, as long as they get
the other parts of you.
Maybe that's a religiouscomponent, maybe you identify

(11:11):
strongly as a Catholic or aChristian, maybe it's your
gender identity and that's a bigcomponent that you want them to
be able to understand.
So it's you knowing yourselfwell enough to figure out what
do I need to relate to with thisperson so that they can
understand my experience andhelp me on that journey.
It's not enough to just saythis person said they treat

(11:33):
anxiety.
I think I have that, so boom,or I'm willing to spend.
You know, $75 seems like a goodfit.
You have to dig deeper in that.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
You know, I think you brought up a lot of great
points there.
One of the things is, whenyou're thinking about taking
that step to get help I thinkyou could turn a lot of the
audience off.
I think when we think aboutcounseling, we think about going
to see someone and talk to themthat you have to be at the end
of your rope, you have to besuicidal.

(12:04):
You have to be at the end ofyour rope.
You have to be suicidal.
You have to be so.
You have to be an alcoholic,you have to be so damaged that
you're finally going to takethat step to get help.
I I'm I'm speaking a lot ofpersonal today because I want
people to realize that you don'thave to be at that store.
I was there when I was at thatpoint in my life where I saw
counseling, when I was at thatdoor, when I was there and that

(12:27):
was over a decade ago actuallywow, it's been more than that.
But over the years I found, youknow what?
There's a lot going on in mylife.
I should probably talk tosomeone so I could figure out
what is going on in my mind,that I could, that I could be
better and when things happenedwith me a long, long time ago.

(12:48):
I started taking the Lexaprogeneric.
For years I was on that and Igot to a point where I'm like,
okay, I'm numb, I'm absolutelynumb, let me get to a counselor
and we'll get into the Lexaprothing later on.
But what I'm saying is you don'thave to go to a counselor when
you're at the edge of your rope.
You don't have to be at thatpoint.

(13:10):
So when you're saying like, hey, you know what I think you
check the box Like I got anxiety, I got this, I got that.
Well, maybe you do have alittle anxiety, maybe you have
other stressors going on in yourlife.
Maybe you had a few drinks onenight and you found out you get
depression.
You don't have to be at thatstore, you don't have to be at
death's door, you don't have tobe at the edge of your rope.
Before you take that step toseek guidance.

(13:32):
And it's not just help, it'sguidance, because guidance
counselors also offer anotherfunction.
You can lift weights all daylong, you can work on your body,
you can work on your health,but the counselors can help you
build your brain to be better.
I know it's a lot, but hey.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
No, I really like the direction that you took this,
because this is exactly what mypractice is built around is the
idea of you have a lot moreoptions before a problem
develops if you can prevent it.
So prevention should be thefirst line of defense.
Can you come into a therapysession and learn enough about
yourself to know what's typicalfor you so that when something

(14:15):
changes, whether that's on thejob or not, whether that's in
your personal life or not, youknow that it's a change from
your baseline and you can dosomething about it earlier?
There's something about firstresponders in general law
enforcement for sure whereintensity has to do with things.
If things are not intense,they're not on their radar,
constantly triaging emergencies.

(14:37):
So it's easy to say, well, thatwasn't such a great reaction
after that call.
Or, yeah, me and my wife maybearen't getting along the way
that we used to, but it's notthat bad.
I hear that all the time untilit is.
And then that's when they comeand they seek help, but they
need it immediately.
You know, it's like 10 years of, it's not that bad.
And then finally something hitsand they go okay, is that bad,

(14:58):
I need you now.
Well, we can do a lot fewerthings.
We have a lot fewer optionswhen we're at the breaking point
than if we can walk ourselvesback and we can do some
prevention and some optimization.
Most of the conversations I havein my therapy practice are
about things people would nottraditionally think are mental
health.
You pointed out earlier, mostpeople have this
conceptualization If I'm notsuicidal, if I'm not depressed,

(15:20):
if I don't have a substance useissue, then I don't have any
need to be in therapy.
It is guidance, it isconsultation.
There's a lot that you can talkabout there.
I constantly talk about thingslike nutrition and hydration,
sleep, work, family balance.
These are topics that peopletraditionally don't expect to
start with.
They expect me to ask abouttheir worst call, you know, on

(15:41):
the job.
They expect me to talk aboutwhether or not they're feeling
suicidal.
So it sort of throws them offthat this is a big topic.
But if we're not talking aboutthe basics, we're not optimizing
that, then we can't expect toperform well.
So I think you're right.
It's therapy is not just forthe intense breaking point
moments, it's for more than that.

(16:02):
And doing that with the rightperson, where you actually would
take their guidance and theirconsultation, is the difference
between you putting an effort,feeling invested and empowered,
or just going.
Yeah, I did the thing.
It didn't really matter to me.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
And I you know I I don't want to gloss over the
rule.
Rule, I can never say that wordrule hey, listen, it's a I can't
roll my R's in Spanish, but thething is too is like out in the
world, out in the boondocks,out in the middle of nowhere,
you have a different type ofanxiety.
So when you're talking about allof these pressure points and

(16:38):
you're dealing with a whole lotof geography, that it might be
worth it even more for you totake that step before the
anxiety gets a hold of you,before that critical breaking
point, because you are your ownbackup and nobody else can cover
down on you.
So maybe that's the point whereyou think, hey, you know what,
I needed to look into thisbefore I get to that breaking

(17:01):
point.
So that's kind of like a almostlike a wake up call for those
that are out there in theseareas.
Is, before it gets to thatpoint that maybe there are
people like Dr Jen out therethat are on there in these areas
.
Is before it gets to that pointthat maybe there are people
like Dr Jen out there that areon the road, that maybe they'll
come to you, or the telehealthportion of it, or you know who
to recommend, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't recognize that
just because it is part of thejob doesn't mean it's not
stressful.
You know, you get, you get partof this culture.
You go through your academy,you realize what's part of the
organization, what's part of theoperational piece of the job,
and then you just get used todoing the thing that it doesn't

(17:39):
really add up, that that couldbe a source of stress and that
that could be the thing thateventually fuels and leads into
anxiety.
So the organizational stress atevery agency is different.
There's what is it?
Over 18,000 different lawenforcement agencies and when we
really say the word lawenforcement, that includes so
many different components.

(17:59):
I mean a sheriff's office isdifferent than a police
department, is different than atribal department, than a
university department, juvenileprobation, department of
alternative sentencing I meanthere's so many options out
there.
So at the organizational level,each structure, policies,
procedures, leadership,hierarchy, job security, funding

(18:23):
all that's going to bedifferent.
We call those organizationalstressors.
In the rural these tend to beexacerbated because you're
dealing with a more truncatedrank structure.
There are fewer people in eachof your possible levels of rank.
At that hierarchy.
You have more intimateworkplace politics, because
everybody's business iseverybody's business, and you
can't just go into your ownlittle unit in a substation off

(18:47):
site because you got one stationand you're all in the same room
kind of deal.
You typically have a smallerbudget, so more insufficient
resources or lack of ability toupdate more frequently, and
policies and procedures may benot updated as often because you
can't designate that tosomebody to do, because it's

(19:07):
just one more thing on top ofmany things.
So it's the organizationalpiece.
What you also are pointing out,though, is the operational
stressors, and again, thisdiffers based on the job
description that you actuallyhave.
So if you're patrol ordetention or other assignments,
it's going to look a little bitdifferent.
But the nature of police workitself can be stressful.
Are you in a high risksituation or high crime area?

(19:29):
Do you deal with sexuallyexplicit material for a lot of
your job or not?
Are there physical demands,like the gear, or bending,
stooping, dealing with firearms,defensive tactics, like
whatever, is a component of yourjob?
That's a different physicaldemand, shift work that's common
for everyone and trauma, but inthe rurals you have a

(19:53):
heightened level and it takes ona different form.
So, yeah, you may be on patroljust like somebody would in a
more urban area.
But when you're on patrol, likeyou said, you may not have
backup or the person that isyour backup maybe somebody on
call who has a take-home vehicle, who's at home right now.
So if you need something,they're waking up out of bed,
getting dressed as fast as theycan and driving to see you and

(20:16):
it may be miles.
Fight it out for 45 minutesmakes a lot of sense.
And we didn't even touch intothe other social emotional stuff
that spills over, like thefamily end of things or the

(20:37):
public scrutiny or mediascrutiny or political climate.
But this is all stuff that'spacked on top of people that for
the most part I hear them sayit's the job I knew what I
signed up for when I got into it.
Yes, you did, but you do thatwork for decades.
You know.
I think in the agencies I workwith they have to do like 30

(20:58):
years.
Now you do that for 30 years.
That adds up.
That's chronic stress, that'sstuff that runs in the
background and if you don't havea good personal self-care plan
to try to offload some of that,it's going to add.
It is an inevitable that itadds up.
I actually start with that forpeople.
If you don't take care ofyourself, this job is impossible

(21:20):
.
You have to take care of you.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
I think about.
There's a lot there and we'regoing to get into some of it.
And then we're going to jumpback even further to the academy
.
I think about when you'reutilizing one of your tools, the
firearm, or you're doinganything in your life and you
have and I'm saying this becauseI do competitive shooting on
the side and when my head is notin the game, when I have the

(21:43):
stressors of life going on, oryou know, I'm just I got
depression, I get it all thewhole world onto my head and
you're not in the game.
And when you're out there andI'm shooting, everything's all
over the place.
But now think about it.
You're on the job and you havethe life, your whole life is on

(22:04):
top of your shoulders all thetime, and you walk up to the car
and you don't notice thepre-fight indicators.
You don't notice these thingsbecause all you're thinking is
routine.
Right now, let me get throughthis, stop, get back on my road
and do my thing, but your mindisn't everywhere.
So then that brings me back tohow do we stop this?

(22:27):
How do we get your mind in agame?
It's not always going to be ina game.
You're saying 30 years, butwe've never been taught to be in
the game, the mental game.
We've always been taught how toand I brought up the firearms
because we've always been taughthow to use that tool.
We've always been taught how tofight and flight and

(22:48):
investigate and this and thatand everything.
Been taught how to fight andflight and everything and
investigate and this and thatand everything.
But how many academies, howmany law enforcement training
centers, how many postcertifications give you real
bona fide?
This is how you help yourselfor this is how you seek help,
rather than like I'm.
We're not talking like atwo-hour block of instruction
here.
We're talking about.
This is you're going toexperience these things, but

(23:11):
these are some things you coulddo to prevent that mental health
and push that on, and not justat the academy, your field
training unit, posts two yearsdown the road, check-ins,
different ways to do that, andyou know there are some big
agencies are trying this, butyou don't hear about it.
You don't hear about this isone of your toolkit tools.

(23:33):
Your, your mind.
Yeah, we work on a body, wework on on learning case law and
this and that and everything,but we never work on that.
Your, your brain matter.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, I think I often find law enforcement to be a
few years behind military in alot of this.
And when you look at the humanperformance optimization world,
where you know sports,psychology world, it's all about
integrating body and mind,realizing that they do have that
bidirectional relationshipwhere your mind can amp up your
body, body can help your mind.

(24:07):
And looking at the relationshipbetween stress and performance,
which in my opinion is the mostinteresting way to talk about
stress.
But law enforcement again tendsto be behind on some of this
because it takes in my opinionit probably takes a lot for them
to reinvent the wheel.
So if you have to go submit newtraining through post and get
that to be standardized across astate, it just people look at

(24:30):
that and they just go oh, it's alot, we'll, we'll make sure
it's worth it right, worth theinvestment.
And this is just my opinion.
I don't have any connection toanyone to you know, confirm that
.
That's true, but that's what itseems like to me, because we do
have data to support this andin my state specifically, one
thing that they're doing that isconnected to this is we've
passed legislation where youhave to do mandated annual

(24:52):
wellness visits and theintention behind the visits is
not like a fitness for duty,it's not an evaluation.
Its purpose is to be a check-inspace for people every year
where they can ask themselveshow can they optimize their
mindset.
The way I run these and theagencies that have contracted
with me is just like that.
So every year I get one houropportunity with each person

(25:12):
that's employed to be able toask them how are things going.
You know what kinds ofchallenges or stressors are you
experiencing right now and howare you managing those, so I can
help them identify deficits inthat area.
So, for example, if I talk tosomebody a few weeks ago that
had passed through their FTOprogram so like the first time I
talked to them, they were justout of Academy.

(25:33):
Now they're, you know, throughFTO.
So I'm getting the chance tosee the progression of them in
their career, which is prettycool.
The stressors they have now aredifferent than they had in the
Academy and they're going to bedifferent a year from now in
their early career.
You know they're making thesacrifices, they're working hard
to understand the politics andall the pieces that are at play.
They're figuring out andmapping out how they want their

(25:54):
career to go.
It's a beautiful time for themto have access to someone like
me to figure out what do I needto be able to fare well on the
job.
And if I don't have it, how doI go and get it.
We're the fifth state to passlegislation like this, so pretty
early adopter of it, and I knowother states are going to have
something like this on theirballot.
We'll see.
It's a shame because there'ssome pretty good science behind

(26:15):
it and we have some someinteresting tools that people
could use, and it would besimple tweaks in in places like

(26:37):
Academy or FTO or otherwise,like you mentioned you're a tool
.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
You're a tool for them and you're a number.
So you would think that theywould want the best version of
you Mentally, the best versionof you, someone who's going to

(27:14):
be able to health counseling andnot just by a checklist.
Listen, you send me a checklist.
I'm going to say whatever Ineed to do, I don't care, I'm
not looking at it.
It's going to be like check,yes, I'm good to go.
You need people in person totalk to you and say and it's got
to be one-on-one, and, yes, youcould do group therapy.
But in order to feelcomfortable, I would say so many
LEOs need to actually, beforethey take that step into group

(27:37):
therapy, have a discussion withan actual mental health provider
.
Yes, peer counseling is greatand I love the aspect of it.
I like the critical incidentresponse teams.
I love all that stuff.
It's great.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
But I think, when you're going to take a personal
step towards speaking to someone, that it needs to be personal
100% and I, you know, as youwere saying this, the thought
was popping up in my headbecause I've worked with
different agencies that have haddifferent sorts of resources
available and I'm just kind ofcomparing and contrasting them
in my mind.
And one thing that stands outto me is the difference between

(28:10):
agencies that have a really welloiled machine going, so it's a
comprehensive wellness programwith lots of different pieces
and everybody knows when to usewhat and how to use them.
It tends to be with acollaboration with psychologists
, police and public safetypsychologists, so they have
somebody that the leadership isconsulting with to understand

(28:32):
how they can continue to addcomponents to their program,
when to do that, how to do that,how to fund it, make it
sustainable, build the trustversus people in leadership
roles that are haphazardlypicking things that they've
heard other people have but nottailoring it to the agency.
And the difference it's animportant difference is just

(28:52):
having the components doesn'tguarantee that people are going
to utilize them.
It also doesn't guarantee thatpeople will be able to
discriminate when the thingshould be employed or not.
And if you have an agency thatjust has a bunch of different
pieces and they're floatingaround and your employees are
trying their best to navigate.
They're going to end up usingresources, like you're saying,

(29:12):
maybe reaching out to a peersupporter, when what they
ultimately would have been mostbenefited by would be reaching
out to a professional.
So having somebody driving theship on the clinical end that
can say here's how this shouldlook and here's how these pieces
should be integrated togetherand here's what the agency can
expect from it, helps a lot.
The issue that I've run into forthe most part is people are

(29:35):
either unwilling or unable Idon't know which one to hire
somebody to do that sort of aneeds assessment and have that
continuity throughout theprogramming.
Here's the devil's advocateside of things.
I don't blame them too muchbecause you can't know what you
don't know.
So law enforcement being aprimarily insider culture, not
very open to a lot of outsiderscoming in and seeing how things

(29:57):
operate unless there's alegitimate reason for them to,
they haven't had a lot ofopportunities for police and
public safety psychologists tocome in.
It's a relatively new field.
Yeah, people have beenoperating in it since the 70s,
but it became designated as apractice area by the APA in 2011
.
That's not that long of aperiod of time for people in my

(30:18):
role to be able to have accessto these departments.
So we're early in a lot ofthose stages.
A lot of leaders that I talk toare open to the idea of knowing
what we can offer, but they justreally don't know how that's
integrated yet.
So until you have somebodydriving the ship, I think it's
tough to make any judgmentsabout it.
But then, when you do havesomeone driving the ship, what
you find like from my personalexperience anecdotally is people

(30:41):
start to learn when to usethings and when not to use
things, so they are better ableto discriminate after a tough
call.
Here's how peer support canhelp and here's what their
limits are.
Ok, anything above and beyondthis.
I'm going to go reach out tosomebody that's a mental health
professional and I know whothose people are because we have
a list of vetted providers.
So I know exactly who to reachout to and when to do that.

(31:02):
And then they're going to walkme over and give a warm handoff
to the other services that couldbe helpful for me.
To walk me over and give a warmhandoff to the other services
that could be helpful for me.
So I think it's complicated bya lot of different factors, but
does have to do with this beingsomewhat of an earlier field and
some politics playing into youknow, you brought it up politics

(31:23):
and admin.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
You're going to always hear admin sucks,
politics, this and that.
But looking at it from anadministrative point of view,
from a management point of view,and thinking that, hey, you
know what?
I know the reality of some ofthese managers out there.
You're a number and I say thata lot because I was in the
military and you're always anumber.
You're the last four yearssocial.

(31:56):
But the liability if you offerthese services to your people
and they use them and it helpsthem function better as an
officer, agent or, et cetera,leo, this may stop that one
officer from having a bad angerday or doing something on camera
.
That is going to have such aliability impact on their agency
, big or small, that investingin mental health resources ahead

(32:17):
of time not only will helpthose LEOs but it'll also help
them later on if there was acritical incident that happened
where they had to utilize theirfirearm or they had to use some
sort of deadly force or they hadsomething where they're going
to have to testify to it lateron.
That said, hey, you know what?
I was of clear mind and, by theway, I've been of clear mind

(32:37):
and I wasn't mentally deficient.
So there's actually theliability-wise.
I think is another sellingpoint for managers to look at
this.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Absolutely, and I do think that a lot of them look at
the long-term benefit and theywant that.
You know, ideally the ones thatI've talked to, the leaders
I've talked to they wantservices for their people.
The fear comes from if I offerthis.
So if I tell people that it'sOK for them to tell me that
they're not OK, then what do Ido?
Right?

(33:27):
So let's go back to like arural agency.
If they start an informal peersupport team where people can
reach out to, do they just tella sergeant or do they work it up
their chain of command?
This is medical information.
Who can have access to that andknow that?
What accommodations are youwilling to make for people?
Can you make that standardized?
If it's not in policy andprocedure and you give one
person one thing and the nextperson gets something different,

(33:47):
you have other problems on yourhands.
What if somebody reaches outfor something you don't have a
resource made for?
So you have an EAP and thatgives people two sessions, three
sessions for free, let's say,but their problem requires
inpatient hospitalization.
Now what?
So you know information aboutsomebody's functioning that can

(34:09):
make them a danger.
Let's say to themselves or thecommunity you can't put them to
work?
What type of leave can youplace them on?
This is where it's not enough tojust say be open to mental
health.
It's not enough to just sayoffer the resources.
You have to comprehensivelythink this thing through from
start to finish and make surethat you're creating a true
safety net for people.

(34:30):
So when I have thatconversation with leaders, what
tends to shut them down is thatthis becomes not just a simple
let's put together a peersupport team of three to five
people, send them to a training,we're good to go.
It's whoa.
This is an actual program we'redeveloping, just like you would
develop maybe a specialassignment.
If you want a SWAT team, youhave to find funding, you have
to have somebody run it, youhave to go to trainings.

(34:53):
Right, there's like legitimatestuff that goes into building
the programming.
Same with wellness.
It's not just we have thisperson we call, we just say
we're not okay.
So I think that's what getspeople.
And when I say politics, I meanthe politics of it's not just
because the leader is a bad guyor gal that they don't want to
offer wellness.
It's because they understandthat there's constraints If they

(35:14):
didn't go to their county andadvocate to put this in the
budget.
Nothing's going to happen thatyear, right, and if they have a
mental health budget, that'sreally small.
You have to be able to have anarticulate and show statistics
that having the budget increasewould be worth something.
Now, at the line level, you'reprobably like, well, but we know
it would, you know it wouldbenefit.

(35:34):
Like, just give it to us.
We know we need it, and I'mright there with them.
I'm, I'm on, you know, the linelevel, saying it's clear we need
more money, but that doesn'talways go over, well, when you
have to have the conversationswith counties or municipalities
or whoever the budgetary personis, so, and you only get one

(35:56):
shot that year to do it.
I'm just trying to tease it outa little bit more, saying that
it's a bit more complicated,because I think the easy thing
to say is our agency doesn'tcare about us, or you know we're
not, they're not really big onmental health, or we just do
what we've always done.
We're not really open to change, and I think that that could be
part of it for sure.
The other part of it, though,is it's not easy, and when
people dig into the details,they start to see how much more

(36:17):
work it is and maybe the agencyis not ready to make that sort
of a shift, especially goingback to the rurals If you
already don't have the staffingto do the basic job to the
rurals.
If you already don't have thestaffing to do the basic job,
like just the bare minimum, meetminimum manning on the street
or in your detention facility,it's really hard to justify

(36:37):
spending maybe a few hundredthousand dollars on a needs
assessment and a police andpublic safety psychologist to
build a wellness program.
Yes, it would retain, it wouldattract candidates, it would
help staff, it would reduceliability, it would do all of
that.
But if your staff doesn't have,like you do with your
organization, tourniquets, whereare you going to put the money?
You might want to put the moneyon the legitimate thing for

(36:59):
them to be able to do the jobfirst.
So I can't really blameagencies for making.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Hey, listen, you brought up some absolutely valid
points.
Because budget, especially outin the rural areas, they don't
have the money for mental health.
They don't.
I can tell you that right now,based on my limited personal
experience.
They don't have the money.
Even these big agencies.
When you want to implement evena policy of a very minimal

(37:29):
policy that has nothing to dowith dealing with someone's
mental health, it takes layersof bureaucracy and you have to
have buy-in by not only managersat every single level or just
at the top or whatever, but thecivilian oversight, the civilian
budget approvals, hr.
People who may have had a badday and said I don't need mental

(37:50):
health, they might not likecops, they might not care.
So you have a lot of layers ofbureaucracy and the thing is
with this conversation is toplant the seed that if you were
a manager or you're a lineofficer or you're anybody, and
you want to plant the seed thatthis is something we need to
look into, that there's a lotbehind it, a lot, but it doesn't

(38:12):
mean you discount it anddoesn't mean you don't do it.
It means you do what you can,but then this also puts the
illness back on the individual.
The individual needs to takethat step and these and it sucks
me it is not easy for everybodyto take that step to get help.
Listen, I've been through thisand I want to talk about the

(38:38):
Lexapro thing and the generalanxiety.
I have had anxiety for a longtime.
A lot of it came with just justa lot of things post-war,
pre-war, leo stuff but anxietyhas been there.
You know, I have um, anxiousattachment, all sorts.
I mean, believe me, I haveanxiety.

(39:01):
So I had a neighbor you know,this is 2010, 2011 this is when
I was at one of the darkestpoints mentally and I was like,
man, I gotta do something.
I don't want to go see a shrink.
I don't want to because, youknow, at the time, being a fed,
I didn't want to be labeled, Ididn't want to have anything to
do with anything going on.
I didn't want them to even know, um, that I was on any

(39:22):
medication.
But my neighbor across thestreet at the time was an
engineer and he's like yeah,yeah, I just went to my doctor
and I told my general anxietyand he, and he gave me like a
skill up.
I can't, I can't ever pronounceit.
That's why I always say Alexa,pro generic, yeah.
And he like uh and uh.
I was like, ah, shit, so I'lljust go to my regular doctor.
So I go to my regular doctorand I get prescribed this

(39:44):
medication, thinking that, hey,it's just something I'm going to
take, it'll be fine, I'll justkeep taking it.
And I noticed the anxiety wasgoing away and I was like gosh.
I think I started off with 10milligrams or whatever.
As anxiety over the next yearsand years and years ramped up, I
started going to heavier andheavier dosages, trying to keep

(40:07):
my anxiety level down.
But then I realized that itnumbed me but I wasn't feeling
anything.
But then I would also get theseweird anxious spurts.
So then I would medicate myselfwith alcohol and I would drink
a lot, drink a lot while takingthese.
It does not work out good formyself.
So I eventually got to thepoint and this was I stopped

(40:29):
drinking because that wasn'tgood for me anymore.
It was I was the depressionwould kick in for days after I
would drink.
The Lexapro wouldn't help mewith the depression, it would
just make me numb.
And then eventually I got tothe point where I was like, okay
, no more booze.
I'd never made any gooddecisions when I drank booze.

(40:50):
So you know I stopped that.
You know occasionally, here andthere, and now I will, but I
tend to stay away from what Iwas doing.
But then I got to the point inthe past year where I had to
make some critical lifedecisions, personal life
decisions, life decisions thatwould affect my family and my
kids and me.
So I wanted to say, okay, Ineed to get off of this

(41:11):
medication.
And it was fucking rough.
It was rough.
It was like my mind wasprogrammed for over a decade to
come off of it and I went to mydoctor, my general doctor I
didn't even go to my counselorbecause they don't really deal
with medication and trying tocome off of that.

(41:34):
So I'm cautioning people outthere, before they start going
on to the self-medicationthrough alcohol or getting
prescribed drugs, that there areramifications to it and you're
going to have to find something.
That's going to get to thepoint where, if you are going to
go on them, it's not going tobe easy coming off.

(41:56):
I tried to explain this topeople before and it was almost.
I tried to explain this topeople before.
It was like friends and stuff.
When I came off of it, you know, I slowly weaned myself from it
and it was almost like a littleelectric jolts, like just these
weird electric jolts in yourbrain and stuff.
But I can tell you now, afterall these years, it's great to
have emotions back.

(42:16):
I could literally I could cry.
I could actually cry now.
I could be emotional.
I don't need them.
And that's the same thing withalcohol and the same thing with
caffeine.
I know a lot of people aredrinking like five, six months
or drinks a day, trying to keepthat mental clarity, thinking
that it's helping them, tryingto keep that mental clarity,

(42:39):
thinking that it's helping them.
This all boils down to.
I think a lot of what I've donein the past really could have
helped if I just went tocounseling, if I had someone to
talk to outside of my innercircle, because a lot of times
they don't understand what'sgoing on.
Maybe, like you know, when Istarted taking those those drugs
that I went to a counselor andthey said, hey, you know what I

(43:02):
I'm not going to prescribe that.
I think we could work throughthis.
Or hey, you know what?
I've been drinking a lot.
Maybe you shouldn't drink somuch.
Let's work through this.
You have to take that step,when you first start realizing
that your mind is going down adifferent path and you're not
being yourself, that you takethat step, before you end up

(43:22):
with 10, 12 years of takingLexapro generic and and you know
at one point drinking a ton,then maybe you you start
thinking about your mentalhealth.
Now I know it's kind of longwinded, but I'm just saying that
there is a time for counselingand that time is not when you're
at the edge of the rope.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
I really appreciate your perspective and sharing
your experience with that,because I think it's not.
It is yours and it's also notunique in that I hear it a lot
People going down thistrajectory of realizing
something's not right.
This doesn't feel good.
I want it to be different.
What are my options?
And looking at medication isoften a first-line treatment for

(44:01):
people because it offers thepotential to be a quicker fix
right.
It's like could I at leastreduce the intensity of the
symptoms so that I can then havethe capacity to maybe learn
skills or, you know, be on await list for counseling.
Whatever the deal is, it givesyou that the potential for some
reduction of symptoms fairlyquickly.
What a lot of people learnalong that journey, though, is

(44:24):
that when you're working withproviders and they're talking,
they're on the same page.
Let's say, you're working witha psychiatrist or a primary care
doctor that would prescribe youthe medication, and then you
get into something likecounseling with some sort of a
mental health provider.
When they're talking, they canbe on the same page about what
the ideology, the origin of theproblems are.
You pointed out somethingreally cool that I want to

(44:46):
highlight.
You said my emotions are backand it feels really good.
You recognize that emotions areinformation.
When you completely numb themout, that also feels wrong.
Sure, feeling them at theintensity you did was impairing.
But not feeling them at all wasalso impairing.
And when people go on thejourney they have their
providers talking they start tofigure out what the right

(45:08):
combination is for them, thegold standard treatment.
For most disorders likedepression or anxiety it would
involve some sort of combination, whether that's medication and
psychotherapy.
They're a conjoint sort ofsituation and the reason for
that is there's anacknowledgement that there may
be a neurochemical piece thatwithout the medication you're

(45:30):
only going to get yourself sofar.
Whether or not that meanslifelong medication or just a
short-term leg up depends on theperson and the severity of
their symptoms and the type ofsymptoms they have.
But you pointing out this, eventhough I took the medication,
the thing was still there.
What that tells me is thatthere was an underlying origin

(45:51):
that with therapy, if that wouldbe addressed, you may find
yourself more better able totolerate that anxiety and not
necessarily feel like you had topush it away.
So that's the call to actionfor a lot of people too is
asking yourself what's bringingthis on.
You know if you're, if you get aum, this is an extreme example.
But if you get a gunshot woundto the arm and then you just

(46:12):
tell yourself, well, just putsome some analgesic on it, I
don't want to feel the pain.
That's like taking a medication, but you still got to deal with
the fact that you have a holein your arm at some point, right
, so it's a little harder topoint to.
With mental health, yes, themedication can get you so far,
but sometimes, if the the originis something that's behavioral,
you have a deficit in a skill.

(46:32):
You don't know how to react orchange the environment
differently.
Learning that in therapy canget you further.
That's like cleaning the woundand putting a bandaid on it, and
whatever the deal would bestitches, bandaid's not going to
fix a gunshot wound.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
You get the point when you bring up therapy.
Counseling is great, therapy'sgreat.
I've been doing it for a while,so I'm a proponent for it.
Speaking to people, textingpeople listen.
We talk a lot about fixingmental health and fixing this
project, fixing this problem,but the end of the day I read
this today is like the you're aperson and you're not a project

(47:11):
that you really need.
It's not just going tocounseling that.
That is one aspect ofeverything.
Mental health is just somethingyou should really talk, you
should really work on, youshould really read things, you
should really invest in yourself, because you don't have to be
broken to get mental health.
I'm just saying that right now.
You don't have to be anythingto be broken.

(47:33):
You can be clear I've beenfinding a lot lately personally
that if I get out of my norms,if I start reading about things
that are going to help mementally and walking, you could
have the best counselor in theworld.
You could be on medication ifyou need it.

(47:53):
But if you're not working onyour physical health, if you're
not moving this blood around inyour body, you're going to have
a lot of your depression andeverything is going to be
magnified.
You're any of that low lyingmental issues you have or mental
things you want to work on aregoing to be magnified if you're
not moving this body of yours.

(48:14):
So, as LEOs unless you're onsome medical list or you're off
duty, we're talking.
If you are on duty, walk, dosomething every single day that
is going to get your bloodflowing, because you need it.
You need the mental clarity.
You need the mental clarity.

(48:51):
My thing now is like when I getpast either it's 20 minutes on
an elevated treadmill or twomiles walking this thing opens
up in your mind and you startthinking.
You're like, huh, that's pretty, get mental clarity.
And this will be the samethings.
If you're working out or you're, are you doing anything
physical.
You get to a certain pointwhere this blood is flowing
around in your body, where youcould I call it, clear the mind,
get this dark sponge out of mymind.
But yeah, you have to work oneverything, not just going to

(49:12):
counseling and medication.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Yeah, and you.
Everything you said I agreewith, and so many thoughts were
swirling through my brain as youwere talking, One of them being
that here we are again talkingabout the mind body connection.
If you think about yourself asa sponge and you're absorbing
everything that's going onaround you and everything that
you are doing to try to changethat environmental response, it

(49:36):
makes perfect sense.
If you are exercising, you'regetting all of the possible
benefits that come from beinginfluenced by that.
Endorphins are pumping, you'regetting vitamin D, you're
spending time in nature allthings that we know science
supports are mood altering.
If you're sedentary, we have alot of research to suggest and
there's been some prettycompelling evidence coming out

(49:58):
recently about sedentarybehavior and all of the health
risks associated with it.
It's an input-output ratio atits most simple form.
If you are consuming garbage,you're going to feel like
garbage.
If you are not taking care ofyourself, you're going to feel
the extent of that later on.
This is simple stuff thatpeople can try to employ day to

(50:21):
day.
Like you said, if you're inyour job, know that some of the
actual operational stressors andorganizational stressors that
you're a part of you take thehit when you go to work.
If you are in a patrol car andyou're driving around for, let's
say the S word, a slow nightand it's very sedentary, that

(50:42):
could be eight, 10, 12 hourshift where you are sitting the
whole time in heavy gear.
That, we know, puts yourposture off position.
If you have the outer carriersor you have the gun and it
slightly raises your hip, yourwhole postural position is
changed.
So now you're taking all ofthat out of alignment and you're
sedentary.

(51:02):
We also know that when you'reunder stress, even if it's just
that chronic low-grade stress,your body's producing stress
chemicals.
That makes you crave carbs andsugary treats.
So now you're not feedingyourself well.
And then if you work graveyardshift, let's say, your body's
already out of its circadianrhythm.
That's going to impact allsorts of things, including your

(51:23):
hormone production.
So just being in the job, justdoing the thing that you signed
up to do, already sets you up tobe in a deficit.
This means you have to takeeven more responsibility in your
off time to actually recoverfrom the effects of that, but
then do good on top.
So you have to be extraintentional about what you're
eating and how you're movingyour body and whether or not

(51:44):
you're getting appropriate restand you're dissipating cortisol
in your system when you're offduty, because we know you took
the hit at work.
You don't get the luxury,unfortunately, when you take
these unique jobs, to slack offwhen you're off and effort will
speak for itself.
You know the people you can seeit who are taking care of
themselves from the ones who arenot.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
It's obvious you know you, there are so much, so many
things I want to talk aboutright now, and the first thing
is simple.
It is is simple, it isabsolutely simple.
I, you know, probably I don'tthink I've ever said this on air
About five.
I think it was about five yearsago.

(52:25):
Yeah, it's been five, six yearsnow.
I had a really, really, Ipassed out, almost died in front
of my daughter.
It was crazy.
It was horrible.
Blood pressure things just werehorrible.
I was 300 and something pounds.
I mean, if you look back atsome of my social media in like
2019, I was fat.

(52:46):
I was mentally fat too, and thesimple thing to me, after I had
these, this health scare and isit for one I got to.
Uh, aaron Williams and a friendof mine put me on a program,
helped me with my health, butthe first part of that was
walking.
At this time, my, it was hardfor me to even walk the end of

(53:09):
the block, but walking that'swhy I'm such a proponent of
rucking and walking is because'sbecause it was a simple thing
of just walking 15 minutes a day.
That kicked it off.
I am 60 something poundslighter now.
I walk every morning.
I get up.
I'm on a treadmill 30 minutesminimum, elevated weighted vest.

(53:31):
I try to get my 10, 15,000steps in a day.
If it's a weekend I'll try towalk seven or eight miles, but
it was that simple.
And seven or eight miles, butit was as simple and I'm just
saying this because it was at 15minutes that got me off the
couch the simple things.
The other thing was comfort food.
Not only at the time was Idrinking a lot and I still fall
into this, it's my, my Italianheritage.

(53:53):
I always fall back on these.
Carbs is comfort food and nowthat I've been monitoring my
sugar intake and carbohydrates,you're going to notice I'm not
lethargic, I'm not taking a napevery afternoon.
It's these simple, simple,simple things that take a few
weeks to kick in.

(54:13):
But then you're like holy crap,you're back, we're in epistle,
you're being able to walk, beingable to be there for your kids,
being in the moment, being ableto just mentally focus when
you're not carb loaded, you'renot drinking like a fish and

(54:34):
you're not obesely overweight,but all it takes is simply
walking.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
I really appreciate you sharing this story and I
want to say it is an example ofwhat we talked about, of the
intensity.
It took an intense momentthat's a tough moment to pass
out in front of your kid and saythis is not okay, I don't want
to live like this, like that's agame time decision.
It took that intensity to makethe choice.
And then you realize once you,once you made yourself a

(55:04):
priority, you said this cannotstand.
I want things to be different.
I got to focus on me.
You found the time suddenly.
That was easy to uh, you know,push something else to the side
and create a pocket of space foryou 15 minutes where you
started out, and now it'sexpanded because you realize the
value For anybody listening.
It is that simple of looking atyour life and saying do I care

(55:27):
about myself?
Do I matter at all?
If you want to do a jobsacrificing yourself for others,
you have to pour into yourselffirst, otherwise you have
nothing left to give.
And as much as you want to tellyourself that you can do a good
job for others, you have topour into yourself first,
otherwise you have nothing leftto give.
And as much as you want to tellyourself that you can do a good
job for others.
You really can't if you're nottaking care of yourself first,
because we've talked a lot abouthow you know your
decision-making, your judgment,your ability to concentrate, do

(55:48):
things under high pressure.
They all suffer when you're notat a hundred percent for
yourself.
So once you make thatdesignation that you are
important, you matter and thatyou can prioritize yourself, you
start to find the time.
I get every single they're notexcuses, I don't believe they're
excuses.
I get every single reason inthe book why people can't do it,

(56:11):
and they are all valid reasons,every single one of them.
I'm you know I worked.
I was supposed to work a 12hour shift last night.
I ended up getting held over.
I'm you know I worked.
I was supposed to work a 12hour shift last night.
I ended up getting held over.
I worked, you know, 14 hours.
I have an hour commute.
Then my kid was sick and I havea court appearance today, and
so I just really only got likethree hours of sleep.
Okay, all valid reasons.
I understand it sucks.

(56:32):
Life is hard.
And how are you?
Because now what you just toldme is your day is going to be
that much harder.
You didn't get good sleep,you're worried about your child
and you have extra work duties.
That is not the time when youcome in with less capacity.
That's the time when you needmore.
To take that on.
If it were an easy day, yourkid's not sick.

(56:53):
You're going to work a 12-hourshift.
It's routine.
Yeah, maybe you could phone itin a little bit, but not on that
day, not when everything isgoing the opposite.
So it's really people's abilityto just carve out a small amount
of time that they're not goingto negotiate.
Start with five minutes.
Can you take the one walk?
Can you double dip on thingsthat you're already doing, and

(57:16):
then you don't even have tocarve out more time.
It's just pairing things thatyou're already doing just to
signal to yourself that you'reimportant to.
My best example of this istelling people when they park in
their agency parking lot, parkin the farthest spot and get the
extra 20, 30 steps.
If you're on patrol and youhave the option to do a park
check, take advantage of that.

(57:38):
Go on a quick walk.
If you can do a community check, go into a store you know.
Conversate with somebody at oneof the businesses you know.
Get a little bit more socialtime, a little bit more sunshine
, a little bit more exercise,great Drink water that gives you
an excuse to have to get out ofthe car and go find a bathroom.
These are all just small littlethings you can do that really

(58:01):
don't feel like it's a big deal,but this adds up over time.
But again we go back to thiscomponent, which is you have to
decide.
You matter.
You have to realize your healthis non-negotiable and that if
you don't take care of yourself,you're not going to have
longevity, not only in the jobbut in your life in general.
If you start that stuff now, itis easier to maintain it than
it is to dig yourself out of ahole.

(58:22):
And I know that because workingwith people that are nearing
retirement a lot of theconversations they have with me
is well, I don't have any healthbehaviors at all.
I don't.
I haven't worked out in a longtime, I don't have any hobbies
or interests, I don't havefriends outside of work, like
what do I do?
And now we're starting fromnothing.
Whereas if you're talking tosomebody who has been actively

(58:43):
practicing this, when they go toretire, the things they're
worried about are different.
It's not that they don't exist,they're just different worries.
So start the habits now.
Start small.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
And small apps that's one word I wanted to say is it
doesn't have to be all at onceeither.
Yeah, it could be like hanging.
You know I wear the watchreligiously when I'm on my.
My goal of, you know, the 10 or15 000 steps a day is like you
park at the end of the lot.
You do this, you do that.
It all adds up.
The sugar thing to me is huge.

(59:16):
The carb thing is because Ifound that once I got rid of the
carb and I didn't know I waspre-diabetic either.
Thanks to the guys from RIFSfor Responders, for hooking me
up with a health test.
But the other thing is it's notonly little things, but you need
to visualize the best versionof you.
You need to I mean, realize thebest version of you.

(59:39):
You need to.
I mean I'm not.
I always I love when people saywell, I used to do this, I used
to that.
Listen, I was an infantrycaptain.
I got back from the war.
I was 198 pounds, I was fuckingripped, I was great.
I was beautiful, handsome,great looking young guy.
That is not me.
I am 52 years old now.
The visualization I have ofmyself now is not what I used to

(01:00:00):
be or who I used to be.
Everybody in this world alwaysloved this one version of
themselves.
I will never be that version ofmyself again.
Now I'm looking at a differentversion of myself.
My visualization now is this Iwant to have a good waist size.
I want to be able to walk 5, 10, 20 miles and not be winded or

(01:00:21):
not winded, but I want to beable to just do it.
And I want to have a differentversion of myself.
I don't want to be has or didor this or my former, whatever.
My former titles are for mediaor for whatever but I am not
that version of me.
I was before, so now, myvisualization then?
What I'd say everybody isvisualize what you want to be in

(01:00:43):
the future and how are yougoing to get there.
Is it just 15?
All it takes is five minuteshere, 10 minutes here, 15
minutes here after dinner.
Walk around the block, doanything.
Wake up in the morning.
Do 20 pushups, five pushups.
Do anything to get this bloodflowing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
The savviest thing that somebody can do and you
pointed it out directly when yousaid visualize yourself in the
future and have those reasonsthe savviest thing somebody can
do is tie a thing that they wantto implement in their life to a
value.
It's really hard to cancel onthe gym when you've told
yourself that being fit meansthat you get to walk your child

(01:01:28):
down the aisle one day.
When they have a wedding, youget to be there for that.
You're not going to dieprematurely from metabolic
syndrome.
Let's say, it's really easy tocancel on the gym when you just
say, well, it's because I wantto have a six pack.
And then you know enough timegoes by and you're like I don't
really care about the six packanymore.
Tie the thing that you want toimplement in your life to

(01:01:48):
something that matters to you.
You know, is it important toyou that in five years from now
you'll be able to take thatvacation when you retire and not
, let's say, stay on the cruiseship because you're not as
mobile as you used to be?
Or you can go out and explorewhen everybody gets off at port?
You know you and your wife andyour kids will be able to make

(01:02:08):
memories, or is it important foryou?
I'm thinking about, for forsome reason, my dad crossed my
mind, so I was thinking abouthim.
He's, he's just retiring thismonth.
Congrats, dad.
Um, dad crossed my mind, so Iwas thinking about him.
He's, he's just retiring thismonth.
Congrats, dad.
And he's thinking about you.
Know, all this travel that hewants to do afterwards.
It's like he's taking care ofhimself well enough, where
that's possible for him.
That may not be the story foreverybody, but you got to link
these things for yourself.

(01:02:30):
What's important?
Do you want to be able to bephysically active to keep up
with grandkids?
Do you want to be able to bephysically active to keep up
with grandkids?
Do you want to be able to havedone all of your preventative
screenings for hearing andvision and other stuff, so you
can be present and intentionalwhen you're out with kids,
grandkids, friends, whatever itis?

(01:02:50):
This is the piece of it that'smissing.
For a lot of people.
They just go.
Well, I know I should.
Why.
Why is it important to you?
You, everybody gets to decidehow they live their life, but
you're also the only one thathas to live with the
consequences.
If you can figure out what yourshould is.
It makes it easier to do.
So.
I I in therapy.
I never give advice.

(01:03:10):
It's always guiding peopletowards what the life they want
to live.
But ultimately, the one thingthat I do strongly suggest is
thinking about your future self.
If current you can make futureyou a little bit easier, happier
, do that.
That may mean taking thesacrifice today, doing the
harder thing today, so you havean easier future.

(01:03:33):
You know, you may not want togo to the gym today, but future
you's going to thank you.
You may not want to uh, orderthe cheeseburger and a salad,
but you know eating the friestoo means future you's going to
have more problems.
So it's just being a little bitconsiderate of that future
version.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
You know what, I'm on your website, the ridge envycom
, and I thought about something.
I was like like we're in thisconversation now about what,
what you actually offer, andthere's a lot to it, and this is
what the you know.
This little next portion we'llend out this conversation with
for a little bit, is aboutachieving peak performance,

(01:04:10):
because, yeah, we talked abouthey, you know what mental health
.
There's all sorts of thingsgoing on with it.
You know you could beabsolutely beat down and need it
and everything.
But there's another part ofthis.
This is being the best versionof yourself, and that means
being the best version ofyourself on the street, in the
job, doing the job.
So let's get into this.

(01:04:30):
How do you, what is your goalfor for this portion of the
Ridge?

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Yeah.
So I really conceptualize theservices that I offer for people
as services for people that arehigh functioning.
They have jobs, they havefamilies, they're doing it, you
know, and life is good but itcould be better.
They want to be able to reachthat next step.
So maybe it's setting highergoals for themselves, maybe it's

(01:04:57):
achieving promotions, maybeit's getting you know,
furthering their education,maybe it's planning financially
where they want to be in thefuture, but it's really taking a
life that is good, but thatthey want to be better.
And most of the conversationthat I do when it comes to this
is helping people understand therelationship between stress and

(01:05:19):
performance, knowing that if wejust numb out the ability to
sense any emotion and you don'tlook at that brain body
connection, you're actuallylosing out on a lot of benefit
to be motivated and to achieveflow states and do well in the
job that you want to have.
So if people can recognize thatstress could be beneficial for
them, if they can learn toharness it and keep themselves

(01:05:41):
within that optimal range, thenthey find themselves achieving
really great things.
So this is where we talk aboutwhat's your nutrition and
hydration like?
What's your work?
Family balance like?
What are your values?
What are your goals?
Where could you see yourself infive years?
What's getting in the way?
No-transcript, so they canendure those moments better and

(01:06:21):
be proud of how they got throughthat and then continue to adapt
and move forward.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
Yeah, I love that because it's on there to prepare
, endure, adapt and repeat.
So what did we learn today?
We learned to take that step.
It's really that simple.
Whether that's take the step to, we learned to take that step.
It's really that simple.
Whether that's take the step toget counseling, take the step
around the damn block, but takethat step to be the best version
of yourself.
And man, I really want to haveyou back on.

(01:06:50):
I really want to talk about, Ireally want to unpack, I want to
get deep.
You and I, before we hit record, were about nerding out and
stuff.
I think this is a good baselineconversation, so I definitely
want you to come back on andreally pulling back these layers
.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you, Any listeners out
there you need to start smalland start where you're at.
You know, don't set yourself upfor failure If you're a person
who has no foundation forexercise.
Don't set a goal where you'regoing to go to the gym every day
.
Start out by just saying when Iremember that I can move my
body a little more, maybe I'llgo outside for five minutes.

(01:07:26):
Start there.
It counts, it's these, it's theconsistency that matters, not
the intensity.
And I would love to be back onthe guest.
You know, as a guest on yourshow, I feel really honored to
be able to do that and getdeeper.
I know we had a lot of topicareas we wanted to cover and
it's hard to do that in such ashort period of time.
So I'll come back anytime.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
I have a laundry list of things that I really want to
talk about.
Like you know and I was tellingyou beforehand about, like you
know, your daily focuses, yourdaily changes, your empathy.
You know, as an LEOs, you wantto fix other people's.
You know, exhaustion, caffeine,and I really wanted to have,
want to have these conversations.
So I want you on.

(01:08:08):
It could be early as next weekor whenever, but I'd love to
have you back on Dr Jenna.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Absolutely Thanks for having me today too.