527 | Eric Tung

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We explore redefining wellness within the first responder community, focusing on the integral connection between mental and physical health. Eric shares personal insights and strategies for cultivating a well-rounded approach to wellness.

• The importance of defining wellness beyond just physical health 
• Strategies for engaging in peer support within first response teams 
• Insights on avoiding burnout through lifestyle choices 
• The significance of seeking help and breaking stigma around mental health 
• Rethinking recruitment practices to support new entrants into public safety 
• Strategies for personal health planning for long-term success 
• The necessity of creating a supportive culture around wellness 
• Discussion on insights from Eric's personal experiences in the field 
• The impact of good nutrition and exercise habits on overall well-being 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey, welcome back to the podcast.
Eric is back on the show,brother.
We started doing.
What we usually do on the showis we have the pre-talk and we
have to talk about really goodthings, of course, welcome
brother, welcome back.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thanks, doctor.
Thanks, doctor, appreciate it.
It's good to be back.
Well, stop calling me doctor,that's crazy come on, you earned
it.
You've got me that I'll be thatkind of playing.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
We're like we need a doctor and it's like I'm not
that kind of doctor.
You know when before herecorded something that popped
in my head is like you do a lotof stuff but you bring up the
word wellness and I'm alwayslike, how do we define wellness?
To me, like wellness could be,like your physical health, could
be your mental health, but it'slike in the.
It's kind of like a keyword nowin the LAO community.

(00:55):
It's like, okay, we havewellness, okay, well, what is it
?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
yeah, it's so many things.
I mean I've debated sincestarting blue Grid back in 2020.
And I've debated about the nameever since.
But now it's there.
It's part of it, but where itstarted, why I picked that was
it's not just physical health.
I was talking a lot about justoffering insight for first
responders and community right,Like the importance of fitness,

(01:20):
the importance of nutrition, theimportance of peer support and
having your buddy checks andmental health.
All these things I've learned inthe career and I've only
continued to learn and developthrough my nerding out and just
the job and all my roles.
But when it comes to wellness,it's it also is just you running
your life the best way you can,the way you want to run it, and
that's where all these thingsit's not wellness just for
wellness, and that's where Iagree.

(01:41):
It is such a buzzword.
A lot of departments you knowall the departments,
corporations, whatever they'rechecking boxes.
They're bringing in thisprogram or this outlet, but no
one's using it or it's not partof the culture.
So really it just goes back towhat are we trying to do, what
is our mission and how are weinvesting in ourselves, in our
teams, in our own personalhealth, and that goes far beyond

(02:04):
the body and even mind.
Right, it's relationships, it'sall these things.
So you can do what you need todo the way you want to do it.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
I think so you could have a wellness program, which
is good, cause then you can lumpit all in there, cause you know
, if you think about the mentalhealth aspect of it, that's your
brain is one completelydifferent function, but then
your body's connected to it.
Your brain is one completelydifferent function, but then
your body is connected to it.
If your physiological isn'tperfect, if it isn't good to go
and I shouldn't say perfect,nothing is perfect but if you

(02:32):
were not working on that, yourbrain is going to be in a fog,
absolutely.
Yeah, family stress, anxiety,it all falls into that.
If your wellness isn't at, it'salmost like I think about that
app on your, on your um, youriwatch or whatever, where it's
like the little circle and I'mlike, if all that's not
integrated into, well, let's say, that's your wellness circle,

(02:54):
and if we're all not integratedin it, you're, you're damaged.
And in this job in your job, Ishould say, because I'm retiring
on your job if you don don'thave all your rows together,
then it can be deadly.
So wellness should be acritical aspect of all of this.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, we all know what redlining is like and, yeah
, it's first responders, it'smilitary, but it's also
civilians, right?
And so I think that oftentimeswe see it more accelerated, in a
more intensified version where,yes, it could be life or death,
absolutely, if you're notdialed in a lot of our, a lot of
our peers, a lot of our bestfriends or even ourselves in the
career.
We realize those times,hopefully looking back rather

(03:32):
than like right now.
But we're, we're in the grindand you can redline for a while
and we're pretty resilient folks, so we can actually redline a
long time, but it's going tobreak sometime.
If you don't reinvest ordecompress or whatever the thing
is, it will break.
And so the question is do youwant it to or do you want to?
Do you want to run your careerthe length you want and come out

(03:54):
thriving rather than justsurviving, to use that adage?

Speaker 1 (03:58):
You know, when you bring up a point there I just
wrote a little note about it isthat you will break.
Listen, 30 years with themilitary and 23 years I mean if
you add it all together it comesup to 30 years with active
reserve fed time, everything.
There has been times over those30 years and I'm very, very
open about it because I wantpeople to understand that you
could be at a point where you'rebroken or you are about to

(04:22):
break and get out of it.
But the thing is I wanted totalk about is you will get to a
point where you may break andyou may have been broken or you
may break.
But we need to integrate in thebeginning that it's okay to
find help.
You know I just had thisconversation with Dr Jenna Casas

(04:44):
the other day and that's onething to find help.
You know, I just had thisconversation with Dr Jenna Casas
the other day and that's onething we talked about.
Oh yeah, it's like in thebeginning of your career.
It's all about tactics,techniques and procedures.
It's like the TTPs man You'regoing to get up, You're going to
, you know, this guy's going topull out a weapon, You're going
to draw, You're going to engagehim or you're going to stop the

(05:08):
threat.
You know stop the threat.
We never talk about stopping thethreat that comes with our
brain.
So why don't we backtrack tothis, Like when you're going
through the academy, are yougoing through any training or
anything?
Something is not just aone-hour block of instruction or
even like a few, that you startintegrating this and add that
into the FTO program as well?
Yeah, the wellness is just it'sright up there with if you're

(05:31):
not in your mental game, you youquite literally could die.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of what you said.
I love it.
Just had Dr Jenna on as well.
It hasn't aired yet, so shoutout to her.
But when you talk about you know, the TTPs you talk about like
the black and white, theprocedural stuff.
It makes me think of this thingI've been learning out, which
is really the importance ofculture rather than policy per
se.
Right, so it's not about what'swritten down.

(05:57):
Again, we're talking aboutcheckboxes with agencies
bringing in training and havinga quote, unquote wellness policy
.
But if your people aren'tactually doing things that aid
their personal health, theirmindset, their wellness, their
decompressing, then what is itfor?
And so even when you talk aboutyou know, I kind of hear this
like this level ofindoctrination hey, you have
these new people.

(06:17):
Let's talk about the importanceof not just that it's okay to
get help, but hey, it'spreferred that you get help,
it's preferred that you talk toa professional, and if you come
out of that being like I didn'tneed that, then gold star, like
that's even better.
Now we're talking aboutpreventative care, which is what
most of us sadly a lot of usignore our great benefits.

(06:37):
We don't actually go see aphysician or a doc regularly and
get our blood work and get ourvitals checked.
But those that do we should beempowered that.
Yeah, I'm checking on myself.
Oh, that level is a little high, cholesterol a little high.
Okay, let's dial it back.
I'm not a bad person.
I'm being responsible because Icare about me, I care about my
family.
I want to do this job for aslong as I want to do it right.

(06:57):
So it's all back into the fullcrux of everything.
It's all intertwined.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
And it's all intertwined and it's better to
do it before you start leaningon the other aspects of it.
Like you know, narcotics, booze, sex yeah.
Any other advice that you coulddo to get away from the pain?

Speaker 2 (07:13):
work, yeah, work itself yeah, I've been there,
man, and so I and I know thatyou speak from experience I I
like to show that to you, not tobe like, hey, it's me, but it's
also me, I've been there, I'vebeen in that.
No, I'll just work more, I'llignore my problems.
Right, and some peoplerecognize that even wellness can
be its own distraction.
Right, like people that are gymgymaholics, right, like workout

(07:35):
freaks, and they they're notsleeping, they're over
caffeinating and they actuallythere's, they look super fit,
but they're not.
Well, and we all know thosepeople that are basically
athletes and they redline andthey tweak their back hard on
something super dumb.
Right, I've been there, I'vebeen there too.
Right, it's not the deadlifts,it's the building a snowman that

(07:56):
you just completely out and yougot to hit the Cairo, and
hopefully you're doing thatright, rather than medicating or
something like that that right,rather than medicating or
something like that.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Man stress when you, you mentioned a word back, man
stress to me has destroyed.
Not it like it really beat mymind up, but a lot of people
understand that stress.
It affects your whole entirebody.
Now, when I was going throughsome rough points, probably six,
seven years ago, with justthings, with work, the stress

(08:31):
level in my body it went rightto my lower back, right to it.
I mean, my back was spasmodic.
I'd be stuck on the ground.
I couldn't even walk because ofthat, just the stress and
everything ended up into my back.
It affects you and that comesdown to your diet, it comes down
to your mental health, it comesdown to everything to keep your

(08:53):
body going.
Man, and you know, you put on apistol belt, you put on all the
gear and then you try to walkaround your back.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Oh god yeah, it's all those things and I've been.
For some people, mind, bodymakes a lot of sense.
But some of the listeners mightbe like, okay, really, you
carry in your back.
It's like, no, everyone carriesthings different.
If you go get a massage, youthink about it like whether it's
you or that adage.
A lot of people are like, oh,you carry a lot of stress in
your shoulders, right, and thenthey're uptight like this,
walking in.
They're like, yeah, I do.

(09:19):
And so it's all thatphysiological connection to
stress For me.
I noticed my physiologicalsymptoms are oftentimes for sure
.
Sleep I can pass up because I'mexhausted from work and it's
like death stress as well.
I can still get to the gym, Ican still caffeinate and lift my
weights, but I'm going to crashout early.
But I'm going to be up reallyearly.

(09:40):
I'll be up in the middle of thenight, the wee, dark, early
hours.
I'm exhausted still, but I'malert like that, wired but tired
.
That's that cortisol, and myworst bout of it was working
graves, you know, dog handler,all that.
And so I still contend with it,even though I'm like I'm not on
the street, let's be real LikeI'm in command, I'm mostly
administrative, but I drivearound and so I still think

(10:03):
about the hypervigilance aspect.
I listen to my guys on theradio so I still get tense when
they're going to a thing andthings sound a little dicey.
So you're still connected withthat and I'm sure you can
resonate with that too.
Just, you know you're out ofquote, unquote the saddle, but
you talk to law enforcement,military professionals all the
time, so it takes you back.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
You don't just like check that out, you're not,
you're in your next chapter, butit's a part of you in a lot of
good ways and then in some, youknow, some stressful ways as
well.
There are ways to to counteractit too, and I think that's one
thing.
We, you're not broken.
You may have broken, but atthis point, right now, you are
not broken.
So you have to be able to getto the point where, if you feel

(10:44):
the cracks coming, or they'vebeen there, like I said before,
you could be at any myriad of it, but you're not broken.
So you have to be able to starttaking that one step, and
that's one thing I'm going toreintegrate.
What I said in the last episodewith dr jenna is get out there
and just do simple things likewalk around the fucking block.
You get so stuck in yourvehicle where you're getting out

(11:05):
, you're doing this, you'retalking to some people here and
there, but sometimes maybe, likeafter you have a meal, after
you do anything throughout theday, just walk a little bit,
three minutes, five minutes, getout and just move this body and
get that blood flowing around.
The diet is tough, man.
The diet is tough on you.
The diet is tough on you guys,especially when you're rolling
around.

(11:25):
You know, unless you, you, youpack your lunch, or you pack
your meals or your dinners.
It's tough, man, and you'regoing to end up with the fast
food.
You're going to end up withthat carbs, the sugar.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Everything's going to weigh your brain down man,
that's where the habits come inRight.
And so, like when I talk aboutroutines and you know course and
building, it's all about likehow do you lower that low
hanging fruit?
And so I love the example ofjust walking right, and someone
might be like that's dumb, it'snot gonna make a difference,
just walking around.
I'm out of shape, I'm wayoverweight.
No, it will, because itsnowballs.

(11:59):
You start there.
And another example is likeyou're waiting for your coffee
in the morning, anyway, you cango over to the couch and start
doom scrolling.
Or you do like five push-ups,you do five, ten, you do like a
squat, you just hold the counterand you kind of, you know, you
just feel your hips, you kind ofmove around, get that blood
going right, and that wouldusually correlate into something

(12:20):
else and I guarantee when youdo that you'll feel better than
not doing that.
You phone roll like go over theliving room, phone roll like for
five minutes.
It's not a lot.
Same thing like the snacks.
I've been there right likeworking graveyard so often.
That's the.
That's the excuse.
Let's be real.
It's an excuse.
Only fast foods available.
But just about every town has a24-hour, you know, grocery
store, right, you can getproduce, you can get sandwich

(12:40):
meat.
It might not be the best, itmight not be exciting, but it's,
it's food sustenance or youknow, people are into fasting,
intermittent fasting.
So you know there's alwayssomething if you're willing to
try it.
You don't have to go full boreon anything.
Just add an apple to youralready not ideal diet.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
It'll be more ideal you'd be surprised when you
start looking at carbs, man.
I thanks to the guys from repsfor responders they, um, they
had, they had me go through andget my blood work done and stuff
like that and I found out I wasjust eating way too much carbs,
man.
Whether it was sugar, whetherit's bread or anything else,
there was so much.
And now, like I'm thinking,when I pick something up, I look

(13:17):
at the carb.
First thing I look at is carbcount.
I'm not looking at fat content,I'm not looking at anything
else.
And then I'm like, okay, youknow, uh, I've noticed that once
I cut those carbs out, likethese walks and everything else,
I noticed the bloat in my gutand, I'm just being frank, the
bloat yeah, but it hascompletely gone down for real.

(13:38):
yeah, like the t-shirts beforewould be tight around the gut
and now it's like I've noticed,like since the walking, just
walking and integrating a betterfuel in my body, that it will
go down and it does happenpretty quick.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Today I started integrating strength training.
So then I'll do my 10, 15,000steps a day and on the weekends
I try to do 70 miles one of thedays.
That's legit.
Yeah, that's a lot.
I used to rock a lot but Ifound out if I just walk I don't
need to rock, and I'll get backinto rocking eventually.
But what I'm trying to tellpeople is like me, 52 years old.
At one point I was pushingthrough, I was over 300 pounds.

(14:21):
Now I'm 60 pounds lighter.
I mean, there's so much morethat I'm ready to do in my life
that a lot of it came down todepression.
It came down to stress.
It came down to stress eatingsweets.
Man, when I'm stressed I willeat the shit out of some fucking

(14:42):
.
I shouldn't swear so much.
I got the blue grit well,believe me, I know I, but uh,
it's just that you eat and eatme just to try to get, because
you know it's it's one, andthat's the thing.
It's like you do somethingthat's negative to your body
whether that's booze, whetherthat's anything else, like
anything else to to get rid ofthis, this thing in your brain.

(15:05):
That's that all comes down towhat.
What do we talk about when wefirst started?
Mental wellness, wellness yeah,all intertwined.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
And that's where I love the examples you gave right
, that that blow, it can be sopervasive and when we're in that
really unhealthy lifestyle it'shard to notice the difference.
But if you do toggle it backand know thyself, right.
So you even said, like you know, kind of the the junk food
binge eating.
I'm there, the stress eating.
Um, if I'm super stressed and Ihave something that's not ideal
, which is tough with kids, likeI would keep it out of the

(15:34):
house.
Now there's snack food, right,and I'll destroy the bag of
whatever it is plantain chips,jar of macadamia nuts like I've
done that, like a thousandcalories.
Sit down at the couch.
Jar of peanut butter I've beenthat guy.
Uh, I have rules.
I don't take the peanut butterto the couch like I'll, I stand
there, have a scoop, put it away, because I've been there right.
So you got to know thyself andthen to an extent and when you

(15:58):
start to kind of clean up thingsand I love how you get the
example of like looking atlabels right, like seeing, like
seeing the carb content ofthings it's not to be dogmatic,
like some people do great oncarbs, but in general, like
people, if you go to the moreminimally processed food.
You notice less bloat, right,and so I.
I grew up like a lot of AsianAmericans.
A lot of Asians aren't reallyhandling lactose that well, but

(16:21):
I grew up with crushing milk allday long, right so all through
through college.
But then once I decided to justtake a beat and stop, man, it
really destroyed me when I gotback to it.
And so it's just like knowingand trying things and, uh, to
take a break or cut down acertain level of whatever the
thing is.
You'll generally notice likeyou just feel better, your
joints are less inflamed, allthese things.

(16:42):
You know the blow you'retalking about.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
And out of sight, out of mind whenever my daughter
comes over.
Like you know, if we go outlike listen even now, like if
she comes over, or when shecomes over, we're like, okay,
you know what, let's go out andwalk down to the grocery store,
down the block and get somesnacks or get some sweets, and
I'll buy like like a low-carbice cream, bars and stuff, yeah,
yeah.
But then she'll buy the goodones, you know, like the full-on
, like you know the, the magnumbars or the caramel, and I'm
like you better bring those homewith you, because if you put

(17:15):
them here, they're gonna be.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
I'll eat them, and I will, man.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, that's what you know.
It's just out of sight, out ofmind.
With some of the stuff too,it's like if you don't, if you
don't just go, if you don't buyit, you won't eat it, right?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (17:26):
do you have an aversion to throwing that away
if she, if she doesn't take ithome with her right?

Speaker 1 (17:30):
I can't do that, come on, I can't either.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
So that's why I was asking first, uh, and my wife's
made fun of me so many throughthe years and she's like, why
can you not throw it food?
And I'm like I was raised notto, it's a huge thing, um, and
so I just can't.
But she's like, but you're,you're, it's the same as wasting
it in a way, right, becausejust because you're consuming it
, one, you didn't want to.

(17:52):
Two, you feel guilty about it.
Three, it's like extra caloriesyou didn't want, and especially
if it's junk food.
So you actually you feel worse,you feel bloated, you're not
sleeping well.
So like, how is that betterthan just throwing it away
because you know you're notgiving it to someone else?

Speaker 1 (18:06):
and I'm like yeah, it makes sense.
I guarantee you and I both grewup with the cleaner plate.
Yeah, I feel even if I haveketchup left on my plate, I feel
bad.
It's so crazy, like if I haverice and all this other stuff,
like I gotta eat all yeah, it'slike, not even like, not even a
fraction of a cent.
It's like so nominal that's notworth it, man.

(18:29):
But I'm and this is kind oflike one of those preaching
things but it's like really justget out there and walk a little
bit, just start working on this, because it all comes down to
the end of the day, it's like ifyou were in this profession and
you're out there, really yourphysical health is what's going
to save you Back up, especiallyin so many of these different
departments out there.

(18:50):
It's not right around thecorner and you cannot expect
anybody to jump in and save youor help you.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of us don't.
We're such caregivers, we'reprotectors.
Yeah, and a lot of us don't.
Man, we're such caregivers,we're protectors, a lot of us,
especially when we're notmentally well, when we're not
feeling great, if we were honestwith ourselves, we'd be like,
okay, so what?
Something happens to me?
Okay, but what about the personyou're sworn to protect?
What about that victim or thatbystander?

(19:20):
And then we can get real withourselves and be like, okay, I
do owe it to them because I dohave a job.
That's more than a job.
And then it's also your buddy,right?
So if you are the one runningback up running code for 10
minutes before you can even getto your your buddy that needs
help.
Are you jacked up and you'renot doing anything quote,
unquote, physical.
But you are right, youradrenaline is popping, your
blood's racing, like, do youwant to come out like out of

(19:41):
breath just because you run acode and you're worried about
your buddy, or do you want to beready to perform?
And that's what I like toremind people too is like, even
for the people that aren't intothe quote-unquote wellness, they
think all this is kind offluffy.
They just want to do their job.
Say, okay, you care about yourbrain.
You're talking about brainhealth, right?
Like?
Your brain is part of your body.
It requires oxygen, it requiresblood and there are other
things, inputs that will help itoptimally sleep, exercise,

(20:06):
nutrition, like it'll make yourbrain make better, quicker
decisions.
Do you not want that in thecritical moments, or even the
non-critical moments, and mostpeople would resign and say, yes
, you're right.
Okay, I'll start with something.
It's not a chamber blend.
Just start somewhere.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
The other thing is to be an example, and the example
is also to be educated, educatededucated educated and motivated
.
Educated, motivated, becausewhen your brain is functioning
with full oxygen capacity andwhen you get a good diet and
you're not lethargic, you canmake better decisions, not only

(20:41):
on the street.
But let's say you do want toget promoted.
Let's say you do want tofurther your education.
Let's say you just want to besmarter.
You need to work on everything.
You need to work on what you'reputting in your body in order
to have a clear head, absolutelyso let's talk about that.
You know you're on the job fora while and you're like, huh,

(21:03):
maybe I'm ready for the nextstep.
And I know you're really thejob for a while and you're like,
huh, maybe I'm ready for thenext step.
And I know you're really big onI'm not just being an admin and
not just being like, hey, youknow what?
I took a good test and now Icould be a leader.
Because it's not just that man,it's not yeah, it's thinking
about all the things.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
I think we all, we just need to recognize that
everyone's a leader.
And those that even say, well,I don't, I don't want to ever
promote, whether you're arecruit or you're midway through
your career, it's no, you haveto lean into this concept of
leadership.
And that's ownership, right,that's just taking taking
control of yourself and runningyour life and running your
career uh, being a, being anasset and contributing

(21:41):
positively to your team, right,everyone wants that at some base
level.
And so when you think aboutthat and you think about if
promotion is the thing, thenit's just a parlaying of that.
And so to show up your best wayis how you're going to be the
best leader.
And you're right, it'sabsolutely more than just a test
.
I made a guide for promotionalprocess to help those people

(22:02):
that have the right intentions,but then they do have to jump
through the hoops and figure outthe game, because life's a
series of games.
But essentially it's just likeidentify what you're about.
And you can easily startbuilding that leadership
philosophy by looking internallyand looking at how you want to
be perceived, what you want yourlegacy to be, what influences
were positive and negative inyour own trainer cadre that

(22:24):
influenced you, your own bossesthrough the years.
We've all had amazing ones,we've all had dismal ones, I'm
sure, and everything in themiddle, and crafting that all
together to make your brand, whoyou want to be, who you want to
show up as.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I think you just brought up another solid word
brother brand.
Because, listen, we live in asocial media era.
Yeah, you know my brand.
If you look at my social media,my brand is what firearms, it's
podcasting, it's writing, it'swalk-in or some other shit.
But a lot of my brand is allaround those three things.
But when you're a leader, youhave to have a brand.
People can't look at you and belike, okay, well, they can't

(22:59):
look at you.
They're either looking in acouple different ways.
You're a shit.
You shouldn't be in thatleadership position.
Someone should be better thanyou, or you could own it and be
like you know what.
I worked my ass off to get here, and not only did I get here,
but I'm also going to maintainthis.
But not just maintain it.
I'm going to continuously learnand be better at it.
So leadership and managementreally needs to take that next

(23:22):
step.
That's the brand their brandshould be.
I am a solid leader.
I'm going to own this, and youknow what you're going to get
when you look at my brand.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, and I got more comfortable with the concept of
brand when I was in recruiting,because you have to be aware of
what you're putting out.
Your product, we're allproducts when we walk around and
some people think that it'slike, okay, you're talking about
politicking and playing gamesand I just said everything's a
game and I'm just trying to bereal with it.
Like, I think it's much beyondthat.
But when we break down howpeople perceive us, it is

(23:52):
important, right?
So we're talking aboutleadership and you're talking
about the you know kind of thescummy leader, the person that
no one wants to follow.
But you know, another elusiveone is the person that is the
flip flopper, right, like, whereyou can't.
I don't know if you're ready totease what you're working on,
but but you shared with me prior.
So what I will say is that noone wants the person that is

(24:13):
just like, well, I don't knowlike they want to look at your
leader or even your peer or yoursubordinate and know what
they're about.
Right, like, who are you, whatare you about?
And that is your brand, right?
That's your value system,that's what's going to govern
your decision making, and so forme, people might absolutely
gravitate away and some peoplethat work for me absolutely
would be like that guy's goofy,like I don't like his style.

(24:34):
You know, he's into wellness,he's into whatever, and I wish
he would, you know, speak to usin this way or he over
communicates or he overanalyzes.
Like sure, I I'm not foreverybody, but I like to think
that everyone knows what I'mabout, and probably more than
most, because I have all thesepublic platforms where I
literally talk about it andwrite about it.
But all to say, like, if youdon't know what you're about,

(24:55):
how are your people going toknow what you're about?
So you got to work on it.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
It takes time believe me, brother, you have to be
open about it.
The problem with a lot of timesand you have to be realistic.
Look, whenever I think aboutadmin, I think about like the
GS14s, 15s, sess and stuff Iworked with.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's a lot of letters .

Speaker 1 (25:18):
What's that?

Speaker 2 (25:18):
It's a lot of letters .

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Well, so like in federal government like you know
your GS levels, like Well, so,like in federal government.
Like you know your GS levels,like your general schedule
that's how much money you getpaid and you know baseline
agents go up to GS-13.
Then after that, you know, youpromote up and you know what
you're getting.
With a lot of people, Somepeople say, hey, you know what,
I want to be an SES.
I'm going to do this.

(25:41):
To be an SES, a seniorexecutive service, or like with
you, I want to be a sergeant, Iwant to be a lieutenant, I want
to be captain someday.
I want to be a chief.
A lot of people don't own it.
They're like ah, you know, ifthey give it to me, they'll give
it to me, I'll take it.
If they take it, own it.
If you want to be the damncaptain, you want to be the
chief, own it.
And if you want people toreally respect you when you own,

(26:07):
it is to be an actual leaderand don't do, don't scrape over
people's backs and do what youneed to do to get to the top.
Yeah, and like what I was sayingbefore.
What you said about teasing islike look, I wrote a book called
make a decision, damn it.
Make a decision, damn it.
And you know it's not a hugebook and it comes back down to
military leadership.
And you know it's not a hugebook and it comes back down to
military leadership.

(26:28):
And you know, I was enlistedand then when I went to ROTC
they graded us on makingdecisions and making it like it
doesn't have to be the greatestdecision in the world, but you
have to make a decision.
You know it stuck with me.
Rotc is pretty listen, man,it's not the hardest thing in
the damn world and the trainingis not hard.
But I've seen some people thatturn out to be incredibly bad

(26:50):
leaders.
But one thing they did do whenthey got graded was make a
decision.
But then you have really goodleaders who are so hesitant to
make a decision.
And then you have those onesthat are out there who want all
they want to do is get to thetop.
And then you have those onesthat are out there who want all
they want to do is get to thetop, and they know that if they
make the wrong decision so theydon't make a decision at all
that they will not get to thetop.

(27:10):
So my book is basically thisMake a decision, Damn it, Make
it.
Yeah, it comes.
Decision making Listen.
Long term decisions yeah, youcould take some time to do it.
If you're on a street, yourdecision needs to be right now,
Literally right now.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, a couple of things come to mind.
First off is that awareness.
So if you know you'reindecisive, there's a couple of
things you can do right.
Competence breeds confidence,so you study, you pick brains,
you find mentorship, you train,and then with that comes reps
and experience.
Right, so you can alter that,you can take control of some
aspect of that.
The next piece is like.

(27:51):
I recognize that as a young cop,like I knew, I'm still hyper
analytical, right, I'm in myhead, I'm thinking about all
these things, I'm looking at allthese trying to I nerd out, I'm
trying to find differentperspectives and I just love it
Right, find differentperspectives, and I just love it
right.
But at the same time I realizedI wanted to be a canine officer
and I had to basicallyquarterback these, these calls,
these incidents and coordinateunits, and I knew that I needed

(28:12):
to get over trying to get thebest outcome right.
I just needed to go with apretty good one, right.
And talking to a SWAT teamleader at my department where he
this is old adage, butparaphrase so many different
ways, but essentially like agood decision now is better than
the best decision later,because seconds matter, right?
Uh, fractions of seconds matter.
And so I think about that.
And also, uh, essentiallyanother thing came to mind.

(28:36):
I had retired a captain he's asausalito county, uh, or
sausalito, california captain,uh, william frost on my, and he
breaks down police leadershipspecifically in this book.
But in that he talked in theinterview.
He talked about how so manylocal chiefs generally are
retirement eligible, right, andif they're not a famous adage

(28:58):
and everyone says it, everyonehears it and we make it okay in
some way, that's saying like,hey, you know what I got to mind
, my P's, and's and q's, I gottakind of play ball because I'm
an at-will employee.
He's like man, like outside ofour, our contracts and our
unions, like the world is atwill, and so if you're not
willing to take a stand for whatyou believe in, why are you

(29:19):
even doing this job?
And so I was like man, like youknow, mic drop there.
Because and I'm not disparagingpeople, but I think that is a
piece of the culture that weneed to buck back on, especially
those that are coming up,because if you are, if, if it's
me and I decide I want to be achief of some small town and I'm
48 years old and I'm noteligible for my pension until 53

(29:40):
, well, I got to recognize I'mgoing to roll the dice, and
maybe things don't work well ifthe city manager is just not a
fan of what I'm about.
But if I know why I'm doing it,if I get canned, I need to be
okay with that when I take thejob in the first place you know,
you brought up a solid thing,man retired in place too.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
These chiefs get out there in these small towns and
they don't.
If they don't leave, the otherpeople can't move up.
Or if they're stuck in thesesmall towns they don't have the
capacity to rearrange their,their personnel.
And what I'm trying to say is alot of times it's good old boy
network.
They have their people, theyknow what their commodity is and

(30:22):
then they don't want, want toadjust things.
And sometimes these chiefs getthat job because they know
someone.
And that's the reality of thesesmall tournaments.
You could have like adepartment with 13, 14 people,
10 people, and a chief may haveknown a city manager and he may
have been like a captainsomewhere else or a lieutenant
and all of a sudden, now he's anofficer, right?

Speaker 2 (30:41):
yeah?

Speaker 1 (30:42):
He gets over there and then he's like huh, then he
gets that thing where you justsaid, well, he might not be old
enough to really be able tocollect that pension.
So then all his decision makingcomes down to you, guys and
girls.
You go out there, you do yourjob, but you don't do anything
proactive.
Yeah, you're just a puppet now,right, you're an extension of?

Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, and you know William Frost.
He talks about San Mateo rightIn that example.
It's a huge agency, but a lotof that I knew kind of.
You know half my careerneighboring town.

(31:24):
I know what they're about.
I know that our leadershipwould blend and they're
qualified right, of course, likenetworking is a thing in every
sector.
However, yeah, we do see somereally poor examples of that
unfortunately play out smalltown, huge county, um, yeah, so
it's something for sure.
Uh, I like how you bring up upthat staying in the seat too

(31:45):
long issue versus some of thesecareer chiefs usually bigger
cities that they just know thatthey're playing the bigger and
better game and they'll makesome moves and then they'll get
picked up somewhere else.
And who suffers generally, ifthey're all political, is the
officers right, just trying toget some cohesion and some
movement you know.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
I'm glad you brought that up to a lot of like.
How many times have you seensome of these big city cops, big
city chiefs rotating around thecountry are ending up in think
tanks and this and that.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
It's like the same.
Some are great, some are not.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, the same cast of characters, brother, and it's
just like that's the space.
When it comes down to a lot ofthese leadership people are the
same cast of characters,especially when you're looking
at these big departments.
They move around, they movearound, they come back, they do
this, they do that A lot oftimes, like when I said the
retired in place, it's not justthe retired in place.

(32:42):
A lot of people want to think,retiring place, they're not
doing anything.
But some people can be 60 yearsold, they can be 55 years old,
they can be punching out.
They can punch out wheneverthey want, but they don't want
to leave.
If they leave, it opens upopportunities for everybody else
.
There has to come a point inyour career, in your life, life,

(33:04):
where you're like okay, thebenefit of me being here is not
worth me staying, like with me,with the federal government.
I really, when I hit 50, Iretired because it didn't make
sense for me to stick aroundanymore.
Monetarily wise, I'm not goingto make any much, really limited
amount of money if I stickaround for another five, seven

(33:26):
years.
So I'm retired um seven years.
So I'm mandatory, so get out,and that's just a thing out
there.
If you were listening to thisand you were like 10 years
behind your prime and you canretire and there's no sense of
you sticking around.
Just maybe it's time to thinkabout other things.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, they don't think about that and it goes
right back to wellness man tocome full circle like it's.
It's people not having otherinterests, other hobbies.
Right, you're, you're an author, you have a phd, you're, you're
, you're a perpetual student inthe game.
You know we're talking aboutdifferent projects and you have
this podcast, all thesedifferent platforms seeing you
on the news.
It's.
It's living outside, beyond,and this is all like para career

(34:07):
, right, like what we do outsideof work.
A lot of this is like alignedwith work and work brain.
But there's also family,there's your kids and hobbies
and getting outside, right andtalk about rucking right before
we, uh, before we got on, but,all to say, like it when you
have nothing else.
It could absolutely beterrifying and a lot of people
have shared about that.
A lot of retirees talk abouthow, yeah, they were terrified

(34:28):
to leave and they stayed on andthey recognized, you know, they
had to find a retiree kind ofsocial media group and then they
felt that community again,right, and then they got nudged,
they got pulled by some buddiesto get into fishing like they
used to back in the day, right,whatever the thing is.
But you need something or elseyou know you're on that branch.
If you don't see other brancheswithin reach, then you're going

(34:49):
to cling to that thing.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
It's a foothold.
You need a foothold into a newmission and you know, I started
building my brand slash outsidelife well before I retired, well
before.
Obviously, there was a lot ofpersonal reasons.
I had to do that, just witheverything going on in my career
.
But find a creative outlet.
Find another outlet.
It's not just the job and notfinding another job and

(35:13):
everything about the job.
You know, podcasting was greatfor me.
It's very creative.
It's an outlet for me toactually talk to people.
Writing is something I alwayslove doing.
You know, I got a Facebook postthis morning from 2017.
It was a memory saying you know, my next thing I want to do in
my life is I want to write,write, write and write books and
I want to be a journalist andthis and that and I'm doing it.

(35:35):
But back then I knew I.
Back then I knew I wanted to dosomething different.
So it doesn't matter what pointof your career is.
It doesn't matter if you're ayear on the job or if you're 40
years on a job, mid-career,whatever Look at something
outside of the job.
And we're not talking aboutfinding advice.
We're not talking about, hey,I'm going to go drink my world

(35:57):
away or I'm going to drink everydifferent beer in the world.
It's like just I mean, hey, youknow you could do that, but
it's your own prerogative.
But find something and get afoothold into it.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, find something that excites you, and
it doesn't have to be.
It probably shouldn't be aboutmoney until it is right, if it
makes sense and it's what youreally want it to be.
But anything I mean not tosound too cheesy, but really
anything could be about money.
But it could just start as ahobby, right?
I found so much, I suppose,like personal agency in starting

(36:29):
BlueGrid and a lot of it wasjust trying to put out positive
content.
I never thought I wouldmonetize this, but when people
asked I was like I don't know,maybe just trying to have an
open mind.
But it was all about justsharing free advice, workout
stuff, nutrition stuff, peersupport stuff, you know, and
then a little bit of like hey,like a little bit of empathizing
with a badge, that that kind ofcontent.
Um, you know, sure I've donecheesy things, but mostly just

(36:52):
hey, this is just how cops feelin this kind of situation.
This is, this is how stressfulto not pull the trigger and got
a lot of resonance and positivefeedback from that.
And then it's grown into theseother things because I like to
go where the need is there,right.
So people ask questions.
I do more on that and that'swhy I have a guide for hiring,
like I don't.
There's no part of me thatfeels like I should be the

(37:12):
hiring guide, like police hiring, you know, kind of advice guy.
But people keep asking and Iput it out.
I keep doing episodes on thepodcast.
I have a guide you can getbecause it's helpful and I feel
like man Clay Surratt is a guy,a military veteran, that he's in
the private sector but he rulesand he does a lot of MMA and

(37:33):
martial arts and physicallytrains people and works with
people in the community.
But one of the things he saidin one of my really old episodes
was like one of the bestmedicines is just helping other
people and you don't have to bea cop, you don't have to be a
soldier, you don't have to be afed to help people Absolutely
not.
Like there's a ton of peoplethat live like literally on my
street that help people in allkinds of ways, including myself,

(37:54):
you know, just as a neighbor attimes, right, and so just
finding that thing.
There's a lot of differentthings that people can do.
They just are open to it andaccept that I'm glad you brought
up the hiring guide too.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
that's a big thing and yeah, and and I always tell
people that before you did ahiring guide is that it doesn't
matter if you've ever worn auniform, it doesn't matter if
you've ever had a badge on oranything where you had to swear
an oath to allegiance to thecountry or anything else.
You, you can always give back,you can always be a protector.
You can always be a protector,absolutely.
But the thing I do want to talk,about is hiring guide, because

(38:25):
there is not a lot of solidinformation.
One thing about you is you willnot just take your own personal
experience.
You'll go out there and findout what other agencies are
doing.
So that's one thing I do wantto.
One of the reasons I want totalk to you today, too, was
about the hiring guide.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, no, thanks, man .
And so again it comes out ofjust a lot of traction and
continuing to have people reachout saying, hey, like I'm having
trouble with this applicationprocess, I can't interview for
crap, I'm super in my head.
It's all the same things aswhen I took over our recruiting
at my department in 2021, likethe hardest time, and I went in
like thinking that this was themost impossible job.

(39:01):
But we're going to throweverything at the wall and I'm
going to do, you know, do mydamn just to to help my my P, do
my piece, run my lab, but justconnecting with people and
answering literally all theirquestions, sitting down, getting
on the phone and then realizinga lot of the same common things
, and then remembering when Iwas a new applicant, like I
didn't know any cops.
So you're just, you're justthrowing stuff at the wall.
You know to use that that adageagain.

(39:23):
And it was a series of reallycruddy interviews and a series
of luckily, I had enough insightto like be.
Really, as I said, I wasanalytical, so I filled out my
background packet like to a tand I knew, like you lie, you
die.
So I was like I will put inevery chippy little thing where
the background investigatorslaughing at me and the person
next to in the cubicle next tous on a you know, on a weekend

(39:46):
is laughing because they'rehearing all the embarrassing
things I'm admitting to and mycall up nicknames and things
like that.
But I just put it all out there.
But I succeeded after a fewiterations and so years later,
being on the hiring side andseeing how I read an applicant
in a packet and a name, or aname and words, not a face, is
like what, what I'm turned offby right and it's it's little

(40:09):
things.
And so just putting that all in, rather than all these
conversations like putting thatall like a 30 page guide, it's a
, it's basically an ebook, right, so you have all that.
But also beyond, just what'sexpected, every stage of the
game and how to excel and how tobe ready for the different
interview prompts is mindset andI love how you have literally a

(40:29):
book to help people transitionout of the military.
But a lot of that is just likerecognizing what they are up
against, what they need to adopt.
You know that ownership.
So in the guide there are nodsto hey, here's how, here's what
to expect on all these differentphysical tests that you may
need to go through in all placesin the country.
However, don't just train forthe test.

(40:50):
Here's how to train for thetest, but don't just do that.
Back to what we're talking about.
If you want to be an asset, ifyou want to actually do this job
to the to the ability that youshould when you take that oath,
then you need to be more thanthat, and every day you show up
right now as an applicant likemake sure you're doing something
for your physical health everyday, make sure you're doing
something for your mental healthevery day things like that.

(41:12):
That's going to truly make yousuccessful in the job, beyond
just getting hired there's somuch more than just getting
through that hiring.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
There's the Academy, next Academy prep.
There's and, like you said, theactual job.
So you bring that up.
It's great.
It's actually train for postjob.
You know what.
You're going to get the job.
Keep the keep that in your mind.
You're going to get the job,but what am I going to do to be
good at this job and not just belike, oh, I got a job, that's
cool.
You know my son my son had ajob at the grocery store.

(41:42):
It's like, okay, cool, you got ajob at the grocery store,
what's next?
Use that job to build yourresume.
So you know it's anything, it'sjust getting the job is great.
But what are you doing next?

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah and uh, yeah.
So, on that, I love how you youcontinue that conversation
because I'm excited because it'sa pretty new guide, right, it
hasn't been live that long andpeople are saying they're seeing
the value they're interviewingbetter than now.
They are not as afraid of thepsych eval because they know
what to expect.
You know they're not going to.
There's no way to game it, butjust show up as yourself.
But you can come in moreconfidently, calmly and you will

(42:16):
do better, just like mostthings in life confidently,
calmly, and you will do better,just like most things in life.
However, I'm excited.
Down the months, you know,months down the line, maybe next
year, I'm excited to circleback with people and I expect
that people are going to say,hey, like this thing or this
article or this little, thislittle blurb you had is actually
what helped me through academy.
It's actually what helped medeal with this difficult field
training, uh, officer, right, um.
So that's what I'm kind ofstoked about and it is like how

(42:38):
you do one thing, how you doeverything.
So you're setting thegroundwork for this successful
mindset and a career which isabsolutely beyond as you said,
right, and you recognize thisbeyond just getting hired, if I
could offer.
One more thing is, like in mycommand job, like I try to touch
base and even when I was, youknow, in hiring and training
sergeant for a little bit, Itouch base with new folks and

(42:58):
ask them what their goals are.
And this goes to an earlierpiece of the conversation you
had where I was super stoked andimpressed when someone actually
says I'm interested indetectives down the line.
I mean I'm really young, I havea whole career, I have 30 years
and maybe I would go up to youknow, commander, maybe I would
go up to assistant chief orchief, you know, commander,

(43:19):
maybe I would go up to assistantchief or chief.
I'm like, yes, like who has theyou know the cojones to say
that generationally like notreally anyone in my generation
when we were new so good on thembecause they have that, they
have that fire, they're awarethat they may go all these
different ways.
But on the converse, to havesomebody and I know a lot of
times it's just kind of a lot oftimes it's kind of sarcastic,
but not really.
When you ask someone hey, what'syour goal?

(43:39):
You're a solo officer onprobation, and they're like just
make it through probation.
I'm like what a shitty goal,right.
It's like well, how about youget through probation as, like
the, the bare requirement?
Because you have a familythat's depending on you and you
are proficient.
There's a reason why you're notin field training.
You do that, but your othergoals could be excel through
probation.
And how do you do that?

(43:59):
By doing this, by hitting up myserge, you know.
By finding a mentor, byfollowing up on my cases, you
know, finding a training that Ican go to, that the that the
bosses will sign off on, likecontinue to develop, and that
might also be like working outthree times a week at least.
It might be taking some timeand writing down some gratitude
twice a week at at least,whatever the thing is, but I

(44:21):
mean talk about one minimal,like not even goal to this
really expansive holistic goal.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
The biggest point is that you don't stop, but that
also is not like we listen.
We've talked a lot aboutphysical health, mental health
and wellness, but there issomething that that's really key
, and you mentioned it is mentor, network and mentor.
I think networking andmentoring is one of the biggest
things for your career.
Absolutely.
I wouldn't have had the lastjob I had in the federal

(44:50):
government if it wasn't through,like LinkedIn, networking.
So you have to network andnetworking and mentoring are
kind of integrated, because ifyou have a good mentor, their
network will now become yours.
So you might be a juniorofficer, you might be a new
officer, you might be even 10years, 20 years in a row, but if
you get a solid mentor, thenyou're going to maybe build up

(45:13):
some of those pathways for you.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
To get to that next point yeah, and a lot of people
think that is some hugeinvestment, like I have a lot of
mentors through through socialmedia, through LinkedIn, through
the podcast, like you're one ofthem, right, but am I, am I
hitting up Dr Jason, and am Ihitting you up?
you know, month after month.
No, like we actually haven'ttalked a long time, but early on
, like I saw what you're doing.
You've been doing the podcastgame.

(45:35):
You've been writing much longerthan me I have not written a
book, even literally before thiscall.
Like you're giving me tips onthings to think about when I one
day write a book and so it'sall just like we're all trying
to be helpful and a lot, of, alot of folks aren't going to be
like starting their own socialmedia for the law enforcement
industry and starting podcasts.
That's totally cool, but youcan gleam all these things.

(45:55):
Hopefully.
I've said something that istreating like a mentorship tip
to you, jason, as well, right,and so that's why, if you're
listening to this, if you'vebeen listening in this long or
listen to my show, you are intosub development, right, so you
are seeking those, those mentors.
I think it was tim ferris Iheard this years and years ago
where he actually makes a nodthat a lot of the mentors he

(46:16):
considers he has not met and alot of them aren't even alive,
right, he's talking abouthistorical figures.
He's talking about you know, wecould talk about, like abe
lincoln.
How much could we learn fromabe lincoln by reading about him
, reading his speeches, learningabout the tough decisions that
he had to make in one of thehardest times in american
history.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
So like, shoot like, the possibilities are endless
and mentoring I do want tocaution people is not just about
an ask.
You're not asking someone justto help you with your career and
to help you get to that nextlevel or whatever.
Like you and I like you saidbefore this, we almost kind of
come in, we're mentoring eachother in a way, because it's

(46:55):
like you want to write a book, Iwant to do this, and you're
helping me.
I'm like, oh, you know, thatmakes a lot of sense, it's a lot
of.
It's just about having aconversation, yeah, and and and
really understanding what kindof value you're going to bring
to the next phase of whateveryou're going to do.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, absolutely, it's connection right and
investment and requestingfeedback or you know just asking
for, you know picking a brainand you know, again, you could
do that from a distance, youcould do that remote.
But yeah, just just try it,like so many things just come
down to trying, like this wholeconversation, right.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, and speaking of what we were talking about
before, too, is you're, you'redeveloping a course now, right?

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, so get gritty, and that's talking about.
It's really coming from the askright and ask the people, but
also people asking all thesehealth things, and I don't
really post a ton about health.
I'm more interested inleadership and that's just the
majority of my job now.
But my content follows what Ispend 40 plus hours a week
thinking and working on.
And so that is essentially likewhy am I resilient?

(47:56):
Why, you know, what have Iobserved?
Like what is the impact ofhealth and routines and mindset,
and putting that all togetherto things I talked about earlier
, which is wanting to create aframework to teach people the
equivalent of like hours andhours of coaching, but give them
the prompts, give them theexperiences and lessons of like
how can you work on your life alittle bit at a time to make

(48:18):
sure you are optimal, right?
So it's career development, it'spersonal development, it's
looking at your family, lookingat your support networks,
looking at the different facetsof health.
I'm not going in and giving youfinancial advice, but I'm
telling you, hey, you need tomind your financial wellness
right.
You need to think about or sitdown with your spouse or family
or loved one and say, hey, howcan we improve our situation?

(48:40):
Or are we on track If we don'tknow?
How do we find out those littletiny things that all come
together and really trying to dothis job, because this job is
more stressful than most jobs.
How do we do this job the bestof our ability, for as long as
we so choose right Whether it's10, 20, 30 years and come out of
it better than we were before.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
And you know what these jobs I'm learning now is
that we're different generations, you know, compared to the new
generation, and the newgeneration almost looks at some
of these jobs as kind of likethe corporate world.
In the corporate world you rollinto something three or four
years, five years, you move on.
I've I've said, you know, Ithink a lot of the the future of
policing is people are going tobe like, hey, you know what
I've always wanted to try, thatit may not necessarily be a

(49:24):
career but it might get me tothe next thing I want to do.
It might be something I justwant to try.
I don't want to do it.
You know, I wrote an article andit got a lot of pushback.
I told people I'm like, uh, Ithink it was for police, one
where I'm like the model shouldbe you should have when you're
having recruiting shortages ismake it look like maybe you have
a four or five year term, youdo as a cop, maybe you get some

(49:46):
sort of benefit out of it andbut maybe not look at this as a
career anymore.
You know, maybe look at it aslike, hey, you know it's a job,
but if you do do this job, knowthat it's not going to be like
any other job you've ever had.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, man, I like that because I had a similar.
I made a blog post.
I don't even remember if Ipitched it to any publications.
This was years ago, this is pre2020.
But it was the notion of abackup career.
And we carry backup guns, wecarry backup magazines and
backup lights and you know, twois one, one is none.
But what about our career?
And, like, I've been as guiltyas anyone else until the last

(50:21):
prior you know few years.
But if I couldn't do this job,if I, either, you know, my
family just said no, you're done.
Or if I blew up my knee offduty and I just couldn't get
cleared, like what would I do?
And in 2020, I was talking to mypatrol squad, like as a
sergeant, and I was like we needto think about this.
You know, I'm going to sit downwith each of you and I want you
to talk about what we're goingto talk about.

(50:43):
What would you do if not this?
And some of them are super.
Like you know, it wasn't like ahuge accountability session.
It was just like, oh, you'reinterested in welding.
You like welding?
Cool, keep welding, keep doingall your days off.
Like have fun, like do somesome art, like help a buddy fix
their fence with some welding,look up what that costs to go
through a course, and that'slike my.
I'm not going to check back in,I'm not going to like ask you

(51:04):
to report back.
That's my nudge to helping yoube better and I truly believe
that when we have options and werecognize options, we are going
to be better recognized, likewith our current station, right.
So it's almost that ironic thingof if, if, if a bunch of cops
realize that they don't have tojust be cops.
They have opportunities andthey've learned a ton and they
have.
They have skills and talentsthat they can take elsewhere.

(51:27):
A lot of them may be totallyfine not taking them elsewhere.
They they aren't, they aren'timprisoned by this job and the
pension, all these things thatI've heard that literally said
like I can't do anything elsebeyond this job and it's great
that there's other resourcesthat talk about this and
platforms and such.
But it's that notion, but atthe same time, it's recognizing

(51:48):
that, yeah, I am more than a cop, because it goes back to prior
conversations we had too.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
I think about that a lot.
I think about that backupcareer.
I think about that a lot.
I think about that, that backupcareer.
I think about their resume, ofnot just being in law
enforcement, because there weresome critical points in my
career that I was like, huh, Imay not be able to make it to
the life 50.
So I was like, huh, what am Igoing to do?
Hence, you know, doctorates andthis and that, and thinking

(52:19):
about education and otheraspects where, if I couldn't do
this job anymore, that therewould be a backup.
But when you have a backup, onething you're going to find out
too is it alleviates a ton ofstress.
A ton of stress Cause somepeople may be in their career
and they're like I don't know ifI want to do this for 30 years,
but if you have an out and itcould be even in the same career

(52:41):
field, I don't think peoplehave problems that you may not
necessarily want to stay on theroad the rest of your career,
but maybe there's something inanother agency or even going fed
or doing something else thatthat's kind of comparable to
what you're doing, but it's notnecessarily what you're doing
right now, but it's somethingthat's going to get you to pay
the bills you know, in reality,it's going to help you pay the

(53:02):
bills, in case somethinghappened.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, and even going back to your notion that you've
put out in the article, I thinkthat that kind of thinking is
responsible for agencies torecognize.
Right, we have a generation,starting with mine you know the
borderline millennial that I ambut generations that are going
to, they have already proventhat they're going to change
careers more often, and so howdo we just cross our arms and be

(53:26):
mad about talking about it orjust well, if they don't want to
be here, then they don't haveto be here.
It's like, okay, then you'regoing to continue to have an
absolute recruit recruitingretention issue, or you can be
aware of it and you build theright culture and framework and
development opportunities andmaybe you can keep a ton of
those people more than theagencies next door.
However, don't be caught withyour, you know, don't be caught

(53:46):
with your pants down if peopleleave quick, more quickly than
you're ready for.
But then there's also ways togame it, like maybe you have
more rotating positions, keeppeople developing, keep them
interested and also, I mean Imean truly, we're seeing it
across the country, but morepeople are advancing quicker
because there is a you know,there's a talent shortage.
Right, there's an experientialshortage because people left mid

(54:08):
career.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Yeah, here it is Embracing a military style model
of service and commitment inpolice recruitment.
So it's like you know whatlisten, it doesn't even have to
be like anything crazy.
You sign up for three or fouryears, but you signed up for it,
you have to give back yourbonus or whatever.
And then you know, if you dothe four years, then you may be

(54:31):
eligible for something likereduced rates.
It's nothing crazy, nothing big.
But the recruitment model that'sthe last thing I want to talk
about today is recruiting.
Like obviously the shift isgoing to be a little bit
different now with, like, thepolitical atmosphere, but in
general, trying to get people totake their foot, like me, it
was different, probably the samething when you were a kid.
Like it was a call to service.

(54:53):
You always wanted to be an LEO,stuff like that.
Now it's like huh, not a lot ofpeople are really they're more
focused on yeah, I do want toserve and there's a lot of that
comes with it.
But the problem is there's alot that comes with it that
means like there's a lot of alot of pushback from the public
yeah, it's better.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
So, if you talk to me , you know I kind of said a
little bit about it.
But when I took over hiring, Iliterally thought, like I mean a
lot.
I left a small unit that I'dwanted to be in it for a long
time and I just got in there andI'm leaving this, you know, on
my own volition to go torecruiting and if recruiting
absolutely fails and I'm back tothe street and I didn't get to

(55:33):
work, that you know that unitthat I wanted to do, and so a
little bit was do or die.
But I also thought that it wasgoing to be, it was going to be
near impossible, but we're goingto do our best and go down
swinging.
Uh, what I found even in 2021,after you know a little bit of
you know the dust was startingto settle 21 and 22 is there
were people that grew up wantingto do this job and they came

(55:53):
back out of the woodwork andwhen you take the time to sit
down with them and actuallyengage and show them, tell them
about how you've experiencedthings and what they do have
opportunities for, not like a,not like a salesperson, but a
little bit, it's just opening upand building a relation and
people are coming in.
We had unprecedented success inour area, beyond everyone else,

(56:13):
where I literally was accusedof like cheating or something by
a local agency.
Like captain, like she invitedme in to talk to her team, which
I did like gladly because wewere doing a lot, we're doing
really well and she's likethere's just no way you're
getting the numbers.
I'm like I'm sorry you invitedme here to accuse me of
something.
Anyway, going back to it likepeople wanted to do it.

(56:35):
But I even have examples of likea recruit that said that
actually he came up as anexplorer at the agency next door
but it wouldn't have back tohis mentor.
His mentor said, hey, man,don't do this job, don't like
you, do not want to do this job.
And how devastating.
But he came next door and gothired with us, right, so it's,
it's just the thing people gotto try.

(56:56):
And there's a lot of simplethings that people do with
agencies can do, but a lot ofthem still aren't doing it right
.
They're not engaging, they'renot leaning into social media,
they're not getting on a podcastto reach people where they're
at, because a lot of the youngerfolks might be on social media,
they might be listening topodcasts to try to learn about
careers and learn how they canget their foot in the door and
learn what the opportunities are.

(57:17):
So it's just again, try, likeyou got to try.
It's gotten a lot better, uh,but again, you know, kind of to
your point.
Um, we aren't, as an industry,we aren't doing ourselves any
favors when we're loweringstandards.
And I don't want to put wordsin your mouth, I don't mean to
your point, but what we weretalking about going on to the
next thing.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
That's like, believe me, yeah, like can't lower the
standards.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
No, no it's happening , though, and we're just kicking
the can, and that can is fullof festering food that's just
going to get worse and worse, toeveryone's detriment the public
safety largely.
So.
If we're removing fiscalstandards, we're removing hiring
standards.
We can't settle and we all knowwhat happens when we settle in

(57:58):
a relationship or in business oran agency.
Now, those that is our culture.
That's going to take tenfold toundo or or right that ship.
So, um, yeah, I mean I hit on alot of things, but these are
big conversations when we talkabout the industry, recruiting
and hiring, but I think that youbring up a really good point,
like we need to prepare and putmore resources towards those

(58:20):
things.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
I think there's going to be a positive future.
I do.
I think there's going to be apositive future.
I think you're going to find alot more younger people and even
mid-career.
I thought you know what?
One of my buddies is a retiredspecial agent, 50 something
years old and he's a deputysheriff.
Now You're going to have such adifferent career field of
people jumping into thisprofession because they're

(58:43):
finding out that a lot of peopleare like I've always wanted to
try it.
I've always wanted to do it.
I'm just going to do it and nowit's time to do it.
So I think it's going to be apositive uptake in it.
But I think you're also goingto have people who are like you
know what I did?
It Cool.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
You're also gonna have people are like you know
what I did it cool, I'm gonnamove on, that's okay and I love
that, that's fine military.
I've said the same thing.
I was like why are we, uh, andit's, it's a good thing with the
military, like, hey, thank youfor your service?
Most people understand and we,we recognize the majority of
people are not going to belifers when they go in the
military.
It's very normal to do four,you know, maybe six, whatever
right, and move on to otherthings.

(59:19):
Like that's an understood thingsocietally.
So why are we not like, hey,you've been, you've been a
police officer for five years,thank you for your service.
No, but meanwhile we're like,ooh, five years.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
I know some cars.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
What happened?
What happened to you?
What'd you do?
But that's not fair, right, wedo it to ourselves.
And uh, man, there's somethingelse I want to say, and it's
just around the tip of my brain,something you said that that
kicked up.
This thought um, it's gonnacome back to me.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Well, you know, I think I you know I was checking
your website.
What we're doing isbluegritwellnesscom and you do
keep it up to date and you dohave the blog posts on there.
I'd like that's one thing Ireally wanted to have you on
today for people is, I wanted topoint to you especially your
social media and especially whatyou have going on, because it's
not just hiring, it'sleadership and it's about a

(01:00:07):
career and you know there's somuch listen.
Fed world and police world arealike in a way, but they're so
different in a way.
And that's why I really wantedto have you on and talk about
that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
Thank you man.
No, thank you so much, and thatthought might come back to me
like 10 minutes later when we'reoff the call.
But no, thank you, I reallyappreciate coming on.
It's been great to connect.
I mean, we could nerd out forhours and hours and I need just
continuous conversation back onmy show because you've been on
my show as well.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Yeah, people just have to realize that we're
probably going to be on aspeaking circuit eventually,
just talking about things You'remanifesting, that, yeah, it's
going to happen into existence.
We're going to speak, we'regoing to be out there speaking
and it's about criticaldecision-making.
And it's about decision-makingand it's not just for police,
it's for the protectorcommunities, for the corporate

(01:00:55):
world, everybody.
There are so many like fly bynight people that just they come
up with some some guru, newtechnique or something.
But no, this is just real.
Make a damn decision or make adecision, damn it, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Yeah, get up, you don't go on a walk around your
block.
That is a decision and youwould be better for it, and you
know it right, you know it, andso and mcraven the interview,
like study their questions.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah, yeah, brother, you said that get up and go on a
walk.
Decision mcraven's this, hisfamous speech, where he says get
up in the morning, make yourbed, make, make a decision,
brother yeah, well, I appreciateyou coming on, man everybody
check out eric tongue blue gritwellness brother.