David Brown, former Navy SEAL and retired federal agent, joined the show to talk about his new book, AND GOLIATH: THE LITTLEST NAVYS SEASL
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey, welcome to the protectors podcast.
We have the real life LeroyJethro Gibbs on today.
Except you know, leroy JethroGibbs from NCIS was a sniper.
But we have David Brown, formerNCIS, former EPA, cid, former
DOI, oig and one of the smallestNavy SEALs ever.
(00:38):
What's going on, david?
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm doing great.
Great thanks for having me on,really excited to do the show
you know the ncis, listen, we'veyou.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You know you were there, but I have a ton of
friends that went to ncis andthen we have like seven
different spinoff shows and likencis, hawaii, australia and la
and kookamonga and sSaskatchewan.
I mean it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I don't think people realize the global outreach that
NCIS has though.
Yeah well, it's vast, it'sworldwide, and although the
shows are a little bit comparingGI Jane to SEAL Team but it's a
little bit of fantasy there andnot all NCIS agents or officers
are like what they show on TVfor sure.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
You know I'm watching the NCIS Origins.
I don't know if you saw thatone yet, but I think that's the
most common-sense type NCIS theyhave out right now, because
that is the origin of the mainguy, main guy in ncia.
So it's it's.
I think it's.
It's a decent show, but theother ones are just like all
over the place.
You know, like when someonehops on a computer and you're
(01:53):
like really come on yeah, yeah,we don't.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
There's no such thing as the information you could
get in in minutes like they do.
Well, they got, they got to runa tv show, so they have to get
it in minutes and it's not likewith us.
You know we're making phonecalls, we're on the computer,
we're we're doing everythingyou're.
You know you're in the car,you're doing all the things that
you need to do, and that takesa lot of time.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I don't think the producers have the patience for
that well, you knowinvestigations, whether it's
ncis or other parts of yourcareer.
You need endurance and Iimagine, like your background,
you know you, really you knowyou're in the seals a bit ago
and that stuck with you.
I could tell it stuck with you.
(02:38):
I mean, as soon as we had theconversation today, I'm like,
yep, it's still there, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It's still there, you mentioned, you know, in
endurance.
And the funny thing is, youknow, I wrote.
I wrote this book and, granted,it talks about becoming a Navy
SEAL, but I had to start wayback and say, okay, where did
all this come from?
You know, it didn't happen theday I walked in and started
going through training, it.
All this, all the things thatyou qualities that you have, or
(03:05):
the traits that you have andthat I have, they came from
somewhere and they have to beexpressed and I talk a lot about
that, how that really occursfor me in particular, I use my
stories to say that.
But if I hadn't done certainthings and brought out the
inherent traits that I hadgrowing up and to be ready to go
(03:25):
through buds training and gothrough seal team and then later
on, you know, as you pointedout, being aggressive special
agent law enforcement, thatendurance, it was a lifelong
journey for me.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
It's grit, it's absolute grit, and I don't think
you could teach grit.
I think you can show people.
I think you could put people incertain circumstances where
they're going to determinewhether or not they have actual
grit and whether or not theywill do the work.
But everything every SEAL I'veinterviewed, everybody has been
through Q courses and this andthat, or been through some very
(04:00):
incredibly harsh times in theirlife where they had to have
pulled themselves out.
It all came down to grit, grit,grit, grit.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
There's a saying, you know persistence and
determination equalsperseverance, and I truly
believe that adversity does notcreate character, but it reveals
it, and so these are thingsthat are deep inside the people
and the people you go to.
You know something like budgettraining.
(04:31):
You go to training and the guysthere are many guys at the
beginning you look down the lineand you're like, oh, that guy's
going to make it, and thatguy's going to make it, and I'm
sure he's going to make it.
And then at the end, it's notthe people that you thought,
just because they looked aparticular way, it's the people
that had it inside them from thebeginning that are standing at
the end at graduation.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I think a lot of it.
I shouldn't say a lot of it.
There's a piece of it, thispiece of grit.
That's the competitive part ofus.
We need to succeed, we need towin.
It doesn't matter what you'regoing through, what kind of pain
you're going through, what kindof mental anguish you're going
through, your body is breakingdown, but you can't quit,
(05:14):
because if you quit you'll neverwin.
And we're not talking.
You have to be first.
But you see those peopleleaving and you're, you know
what?
I got something more than theydo.
I've got to win, I've got to dothis.
And that fear of not winning, Ithink, is what pushes you to
the next level.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I love that you went beyond not quitting and that the
succeeding and winning was inwhat you just said, because I've
heard and had manyconversations with people that
say, well, if you just don'tquit, it'll be okay.
No, it won't.
There are standards, there aretimed runs or there are test
(05:54):
scores, and there's your life,my life, everyone's life is
about being tested all the time.
Not quitting doesn't meanyou've won.
It just means you haven'tstopped the activity.
It doesn't mean success.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You got it.
And that's the adage of youhave to be.
You have to get up in themorning and you have to be
deliberate.
So when you say, hey, you knowwhat?
I'm going to be a Navy SEAL.
It doesn't matter if you're 17,18, it doesn't matter if you're
15 or if you're 28, you're 30.
If there is a point in yourlife where you want to get to a
point, you need to wake up inthe morning and you need to be
(06:28):
deliberate, the next, whatever16, 18 hours, you're up.
But that deliberation has toinclude grit.
It has to be able to be likeyou know what Today sucks, I'm
not going to work out.
But that grit piece of yourmind has to be like nope, I got
it.
I got to do this.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
That's the hard part.
It's not doing it for one dayor two days, it's doing it every
day and that is it's a lifetimecommitment and I think really
that it goes to the core of theperson.
They have it, a lot of peoplehave, I have it.
I have something that I writeabout.
It's called pathologicalpersistence and it was a coined
(07:10):
term by a psychologist, robertHill, and he went and studied a
gentleman, a guy named Doba.
He was a Polish gentleman whowas decided he was going to
kayak across the Atlantic Ocean,and I don't know if you heard
this story, but Dober, byhimself, when he's 65 years old,
(07:32):
kayaks across the Atlantic.
And then after that he kayakedagain across the Atlantic and
again across the Atlantic, andthen he climbed Mount
Kilimanjaro where he finally, atthe top, had a heart attack and
died.
And what Robert Hill says is,when they let me go back to
(07:53):
Doble what they asked, they saidwhy did you do this?
He says it was inevitable, itwas something that I was
destined to do.
I had to do it had to do it.
And so when he talks about whathe's, robert Hill attributed
that to a cellular levelpathological persistence.
And when you talk about grit.
I believe that it comes at acellular level in everyone that
(08:17):
has it, and it's not somethingthey can stop, it's not
something they can avoid.
Even myself, I have to get upand I have to do these things
every day and push, push on to,as I call it in my book, the
next mission.
There's always the next mission.
And guess what, when you climbto the top of the mountain,
what's there?
What's on the other side?
Another mountain, right.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
so that is one thing that is is, most people who have
that grit will continue thatgrit.
They will have that mission.
You need that mission and Ithink that for mental
health-wise you know, especiallybeing in law enforcement or
being in a protector community,you need to have a mission.
Now you could do your five, six, seven, eight years in the Navy
(09:00):
, seals or any military service,but the next thing you do is
you have to have a mission,whether, hey, you know what you
want to go, get it, be anentrepreneur, you want to be
your mission, great.
But you have to get on andfocus on something that can
bring a light to your mind.
Now you jumped into lawenforcement and NCIS and then,
(09:20):
like I said before, epa and thenNDOI.
It's missions, differentmissions, and you're like me,
I've jumped around differentagencies, but there's a, there's
a reason for it and you'realways.
You need to excel Right.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I don't know if you're familiar with Colonel
Grossman's book on combat andthe analogy he uses with
sheepdogs and how they are theprotectors of society.
And you mentioned the mission.
And I think guys like us, wehave that innate ability or
trait that we want to go out andwe want to protect people,
(10:00):
trait that we want to go out andwe want to protect people, and
so we're.
We go into professions like lawenforcement, firefighter,
military, because these, theseare the areas where we're good,
that we're good at and we'recomfortable at and it it creates
a dopamine rush for us, andwhere we feel good about what
we're doing in our job.
Right, it's not about.
I remember a guy who used towork for me, who was a work for
interior.
He used to tell me all the time, Dave, so many days I would do
(10:23):
this job for nothing.
I'm having such a good time andthat's the occupation you
really want to do most of yourlife, right.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm glad you brought up dopamine.
You know the adrenaline, thedopamine when you are tracking
down a case and you have thatthread and you just want to keep
pulling it.
And you want to keep pulling itto see where it goes,
especially if it turns into alarge scale case.
Small scale cases are great andeverything and they're cool,
(10:52):
but when you start pulling thatthread and you start finding
other co-conspirators and you'relike, huh, where does this go?
Where does that go?
And these are the types ofcases you bring home at night
because your mind is alwaysthinking and so you're always
getting a little hit off of it.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, no doubt.
I mean if, if you're doing thejob of a special agent or law
enforcement, you're doingdetective work and and someone
has to force you to go to thenext level or go to that to do
that interview, maybe you shouldconsider doing something else
because I'd love that.
For me, the day I got the lead,whatever it was, it was the
first 48 hours were the mostimportant.
(11:29):
That's why they do TV showsright, like those first hours of
an investigation are soimportant to get to those
witnesses, to get that evidence.
And for me that was so excitingand I just I went from.
We would often, when I was withEPA in particular, we would get
a lead in and maybe my partnerwould get in our vehicle and we
(11:49):
would just go okay, we'll seeyou.
When we see you, we're goingout and we're going to start
interviewing people.
We would go from town to town,person to person, business to
business, stay out until we feltwe had enough evidence that we
were not going to be impeded by,let's just say, the lawyers
coming out there trying to stopour investigation.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, you know, epa is lawyers, lawyers, lawyers,
always.
And you dot your I's and crossyour T's with all those
investigations Always.
And you dot your I's and crossyour T's with all those
investigations.
Now in your book and Goliath,the Littlest Seals impractical
story about living your biggestlife.
I think it's funny because Ilistened to some of your other
podcast interviews and the onlything that pops in my mind is
(12:33):
like listen.
Whenever I hear about the seals, I think about the boats and
buds and all that stuff.
And you were five, three andyou were".
And you were like a buck,something wet.
How did you integrate that inwith the team?
I know we're kind of jumpingback to your SEAL thing, but
it's just been stuck in my head.
So you were on a beach and yougot this big-ass boat and you're
(12:55):
5'3".
Speaker 2 (13:02):
If you're talking about specifically with training
.
Um, yeah, you know, they groupyou in groups with people that
are close to your own size.
Okay, five, three and 110pounds.
There weren't many guys myheight or size.
In fact there was none.
I was the shortest guy andthese big rubber boats are about
120 pounds.
So you got seven guys in there.
When they first started boatcrew.
The problem was they are all.
(13:24):
The boat was all on the top oftheir head but it was still off
my head.
So there's this thing at theback of the boat was a blow up
skag which helps you steer theboat.
They used to make me run underthe skag so my head would at
least touch part of the boat.
So otherwise I was runningconstantly with my hands up in
the air trying to help otherpeople take the weight off the
(13:47):
boat.
So that is the physicalchallenge of but and I paid.
I paid the price.
I mean instructors would see,brown, your head's not touching
the boat.
They'd run over and they'dbuild a little mound under my
feet and make me stand on it.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You know, talk about learning something new about
yourself, right, because nowyou're going to have, because
you're your small stature,you're going to have more eyes
on you.
And then you're going to havethese guys who are, you know,
the fit guys from the academywho look like they could be like
football stars and quarterbacksand all that.
And then here you are notringing the bell, you're just
(14:24):
keep going, like we were talkingabout before you got the grit.
So that must've been kind ofinteresting for you to be coming
, you know, out of high school.
And then you get into this, youknow the seals, and all of a
sudden you're, you're, you'relooking around and back then,
listen, the only thing they hadgoing on was, you know, maybe a
couple of movies, maybe somebooks about Vietnam seals, but
(14:46):
there wasn't anything reallyabout.
There was no YouTube.
Back then you really didn'tknow where you're getting into.
But now you're in there andyou're looking around and you're
like, well, huh, yeah, how am Igoing to make this?
What was that?
What was that wave like in yourhead?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, I joined the Navy when I was 17.
So, lucky for me, I didn't knowanything about anything.
I was, you know, came from acoal mining town in Pennsylvania
.
I had no experience.
I hadn't been out ofPennsylvania ever.
And then, all of a sudden, I'mthrust into this situation where
, since there were no books, asyou point out, or movies, or
really to talk about whattraining was, I thought
(15:21):
literally I was going out to thePacific somewhere and be on an
island.
And you know, we were going tobe on a deserted island and
we're going to do this training.
And so, when I got to Coronado,it was a big relief that it
wasn't a desert island somewhere.
But that's how naive I was.
And so the good part is, Ireally didn't know enough to
quit.
I just knew that I wasn't goingto and that I was going, as I
(15:43):
said.
As I drove across the bridge toCoronado, I said the only way
I'm going to come off thisisland is if I graduate.
Otherwise they're going to haveto drag my dead body off, and
so that.
But that was the mentaldedication I had, that nothing
was going to stop me from doingwhatever was in front of me.
And, believe me.
There was a lot in front of methat I had no expectation that
(16:05):
was ever going to happen.
It was way harder and way moretorturous than I could ever
thought.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I can only imagine.
You know I was stationed in SanDiego I shouldn't say station,
that was.
That was my duty station forthe border patrol and for
customs slash DHS, but Coronado.
I remember driving over thereand seeing those guys running on
the beach and I was like oh,running in the sand for miles
upon miles and trying to keep upmust have been a pain in the
(16:31):
ass too.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, running was my Achilles heel and almost did me
in, and it was actually aturning point, not only in Bud's
for me, but in my life.
I was doing a training run andgot to the point where I had
fallen behind several othertimes and I they made me do some
really nasty things in order totry to get better.
And here I am I'm fallingbehind again and I thought that
(16:56):
was it.
My, I wasn't going to make it,I was going to fail.
The ambulance behind me wasgoing to pick me up, take me
back and that would be the endof my training.
And I had this epiphany thatthis was it.
I'm either going to run fasterand keep up with the rest of the
group or I'm going to die righthere on this beach book as like
(17:21):
an out of body experience whereI could was looking down upon
myself and all of a sudden Idon't even feel myself running
anymore.
I just sprint, I catch up toeverybody and I've never fell
behind again.
And what did that tell me wasit was all in my head.
My inability to do somethingwasn't because I physically
couldn't is because I mentallycouldn't get over the fact that
I thought I couldn't do it, andwhen I broke that barrier,
(17:44):
everything started coming easier.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
You know I can only imagine fast forward seven years
and I don't really want to geta lot into your SEAL career
because I have a feeling thebook is going to have a lot of
that and I really want thereaders out there and the
listeners to pick up the bookand Goliath Little SEALs and
Pract practical story aboutliving your biggest life which
is out now.
But I do want to say fastforward seven years and all of a
sudden you're at fletzy andthat must have been a kate walk,
(18:10):
one of the 1811 course.
I mean, compared to you knowthe training and deployments you
had before that yeah, uh, haveyou been to fletcy?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
did you go to fletcy?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
yeah, I think I spent about a year and a half all
together with all the differenttrainings and everything else
there remember the big deal.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Well, at least back in the day I don't know if they
still have it was the 500 pointpt score scoring perfect on the
pt score.
There was a wall with at thattime when I went through.
There's only a wall with likemaybe a couple dozen people who
ever scored 500.
And I walked in there.
I looked at that.
I'm like oh that's it.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's all we got to do.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
You know.
So I scored a 500, not once buttwice, because I had to go back
for EPA training when I waswithin C.
I scored a 500, and then I cameback with epa, with seven years
later, and scored another 500.
So to answer your question,yeah, the pt wasn't all that
difficult for me influence.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, well, it's good to get your mind going too.
You know, compared to like, youknow when you come from a, you
know a soft community and you'renot really.
I mean, yeah, you have to useyour mind.
There's a lot of differenttechnical aspects, especially if
you get assigned to like anIntel type slot.
But when you get there and youhave to learn, okay, well huh,
my whole life's been this forthis point, and now, all of a
(19:29):
sudden, I have to learn how todo investigations.
That must've been a really cool, exciting experience for you
too, because now you're shiftingfocus and you're being able to
go into using your mind more inyour body.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I love that part.
My degree is in criminaljustice, so it was really what I
was trained to do, in additionto, you know, just being
motivated to do it.
So I yeah, I was all excited.
I couldn't wait to get out andstart my first investigations.
And then my first duty stationwas at Marine Corps Base Paris
Island, where it all begins forthe Marines, and I had a great
boss.
I had probably one of the bestboss anybody could have had.
(20:08):
One of his sayings was Dave,there's not enough paper in the
world to explain why you didsomething that was not in the
manual, and this had six manualsand we read manuals over and
over.
He made us be so proficient,not only at being doing
(20:29):
investigations, but the way youdid them, and because everything
you did was was potentiallygoing to be seen in a courtroom.
And so he drilled that into us.
No matter what you do, you mayhave to testify about it, and so
that was the best way to startoff as a junior special agent.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You know, one of the last questions, because the
format of the show is a littlebit different.
Now we do book discussions,which I mentioned before, around
20, 20-some minutes.
So I really want people to pickup this book.
I'm picking it up myself.
I really want people to pick upthis book.
I'm picking it up myself, Ireally am.
I'm looking forward to it Cause, like you and I do have a lot
of similar career field as faras when it comes to post
military.
So what I would, I would dowant to ask you is and I like
(21:12):
this question what's your bestpiece of advice that you've ever
received and why and I stolethis from another podcast
because I was like you know what?
I never asked people that.
I mean, you have a 30-yearcareer, so I want to know your
best piece of advice that youreceived as a special agent or
(21:32):
as anything, your whole career.
30.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Um, hmm, hmm, Um I.
I think this is the mostimportant thing, um that nobody
um.
Your integrity is the mostimportant trait you can have for
anything you do, and no one cantake your integrity from you.
(21:55):
You have to give it away.
That is the most best advicethat I was ever given.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I love it, and that is if you ever get into law
enforcement and in military aswell.
Integrity is key.
If you have no integrity andyou lie, god forbid, you lie
under oath, you get gigliote.
You'll never your your.
Your career is done and it'sgoing to.
It's going to follow you andit's going to follow you the
rest of your career is done andit's going to follow you and
it's going to follow you therest of your career.
(22:23):
Now you are really into thetraining sphere.
I like that.
Training needs to be relevant,it needs to be engaged, and
that's actually my last questionfor you how do you remain
engaged and relevant in thetraining atmosphere, because
people have such short attentionspans now.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Providing training or training myself.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Providing training.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
That's a challenge.
Now you have to know youraudience is probably the most
important part of providingtraining that's meaningful,
substantial and will remain withpeople that you're providing
the training for.
So understanding who you'retalking to is the biggest
challenge.
One of my last jobs was I wasthe inspector general associate
(23:14):
inspector general forcommunication for an
organization, inspector GeneralAssociate Inspector General for
Communication for anorganization, and we provided a
lot of training and we provide alot of information to a very
large organization.
And for people to absorb thatyou have to be.
There's some elements ofproviding communication, whether
it's training or anything.
For people to absorb, it has tobe relevant, it has to be given
(23:42):
in a way that they willunderstand and are willing to
receive.
And then you have to, when you,when you provide the
information and training, youhave to get feedback from the
people you're training so thatto understand that, they
understand what you're relaying.
And then until, unless you can,unless they can, parrot back to
you information that you'vejust provided them, it's right
over their head.
(24:02):
And they're either glazed overfrom not understanding, not
interested, or you didn'tpresent it right.
And I've always said if thepeople I'm training or talking
to don't understand what I'msaying, it's not their fault,
it's mine, because I didn'tpresent it properly.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Perfect.
Well, david.
The book is Anne Goliath.
The Little of Seals ImpracticalStory About Living your Biggest
Life.
I appreciate you coming on.
I'm looking forward to havingmore conversations after I read
the book.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I'm available.
Give me a call, we'll haveanother chat.
Plenty of stories.
It was a pleasure to be here,thank you.
Hey, welcome to the protectors podcast.
We have the real life LeroyJethro Gibbs on today.
Except you know, leroy JethroGibbs from NCIS was a sniper.
But we have David Brown, formerNCIS, former EPA, cid, former
DOI, oig and one of the smallestNavy SEALs ever.
(00:38):
What's going on, david?
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm doing great.
Great thanks for having me on,really excited to do the show
you know the ncis, listen, we'veyou.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You know you were there, but I have a ton of
friends that went to ncis andthen we have like seven
different spinoff shows and likencis, hawaii, australia and la
and kookamonga and sSaskatchewan.
I mean it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I don't think people realize the global outreach that
NCIS has though.
Yeah well, it's vast, it'sworldwide, and although the
shows are a little bit comparingGI Jane to SEAL Team but it's a
little bit of fantasy there andnot all NCIS agents or officers
are like what they show on TVfor sure.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
You know I'm watching the NCIS Origins.
I don't know if you saw thatone yet, but I think that's the
most common-sense type NCIS theyhave out right now, because
that is the origin of the mainguy, main guy in ncia.
So it's it's.
I think it's.
It's a decent show, but theother ones are just like all
over the place.
You know, like when someonehops on a computer and you're
(01:53):
like really come on yeah, yeah,we don't.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
There's no such thing as the information you could
get in in minutes like they do.
Well, they got, they got to runa tv show, so they have to get
it in minutes and it's not likewith us.
You know we're making phonecalls, we're on the computer,
we're we're doing everythingyou're.
You know you're in the car,you're doing all the things that
you need to do, and that takesa lot of time.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I don't think the producers have the patience for
that well, you knowinvestigations, whether it's
ncis or other parts of yourcareer.
You need endurance and Iimagine, like your background,
you know you, really you knowyou're in the seals a bit ago
and that stuck with you.
I could tell it stuck with you.
(02:38):
I mean, as soon as we had theconversation today, I'm like,
yep, it's still there, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
It's still there, you mentioned, you know, in
endurance.
And the funny thing is, youknow, I wrote.
I wrote this book and, granted,it talks about becoming a Navy
SEAL, but I had to start wayback and say, okay, where did
all this come from?
You know, it didn't happen theday I walked in and started
going through training, it.
All this, all the things thatyou qualities that you have, or
(03:05):
the traits that you have andthat I have, they came from
somewhere and they have to beexpressed and I talk a lot about
that, how that really occursfor me in particular, I use my
stories to say that.
But if I hadn't done certainthings and brought out the
inherent traits that I hadgrowing up and to be ready to go
(03:25):
through buds training and gothrough seal team and then later
on, you know, as you pointedout, being aggressive special
agent law enforcement, thatendurance, it was a lifelong
journey for me.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
It's grit, it's absolute grit, and I don't think
you could teach grit.
I think you can show people.
I think you could put people incertain circumstances where
they're going to determinewhether or not they have actual
grit and whether or not theywill do the work.
But everything every SEAL I'veinterviewed, everybody has been
through Q courses and this andthat, or been through some very
(04:00):
incredibly harsh times in theirlife where they had to have
pulled themselves out.
It all came down to grit, grit,grit, grit.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
There's a saying, you know persistence and
determination equalsperseverance, and I truly
believe that adversity does notcreate character, but it reveals
it, and so these are thingsthat are deep inside the people
and the people you go to.
You know something like budgettraining.
(04:31):
You go to training and the guysthere are many guys at the
beginning you look down the lineand you're like, oh, that guy's
going to make it, and thatguy's going to make it, and I'm
sure he's going to make it.
And then at the end, it's notthe people that you thought,
just because they looked aparticular way, it's the people
that had it inside them from thebeginning that are standing at
the end at graduation.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I think a lot of it.
I shouldn't say a lot of it.
There's a piece of it, thispiece of grit.
That's the competitive part ofus.
We need to succeed, we need towin.
It doesn't matter what you'regoing through, what kind of pain
you're going through, what kindof mental anguish you're going
through, your body is breakingdown, but you can't quit,
(05:14):
because if you quit you'll neverwin.
And we're not talking.
You have to be first.
But you see those peopleleaving and you're, you know
what?
I got something more than theydo.
I've got to win, I've got to dothis.
And that fear of not winning, Ithink, is what pushes you to
the next level.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I love that you went beyond not quitting and that the
succeeding and winning was inwhat you just said, because I've
heard and had manyconversations with people that
say, well, if you just don'tquit, it'll be okay.
No, it won't.
There are standards, there aretimed runs or there are test
(05:54):
scores, and there's your life,my life, everyone's life is
about being tested all the time.
Not quitting doesn't meanyou've won.
It just means you haven'tstopped the activity.
It doesn't mean success.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You got it.
And that's the adage of youhave to be.
You have to get up in themorning and you have to be
deliberate.
So when you say, hey, you knowwhat?
I'm going to be a Navy SEAL.
It doesn't matter if you're 17,18, it doesn't matter if you're
15 or if you're 28, you're 30.
If there is a point in yourlife where you want to get to a
point, you need to wake up inthe morning and you need to be
(06:28):
deliberate, the next, whatever16, 18 hours, you're up.
But that deliberation has toinclude grit.
It has to be able to be likeyou know what Today sucks, I'm
not going to work out.
But that grit piece of yourmind has to be like nope, I got
it.
I got to do this.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
That's the hard part.
It's not doing it for one dayor two days, it's doing it every
day and that is it's a lifetimecommitment and I think really
that it goes to the core of theperson.
They have it, a lot of peoplehave, I have it.
I have something that I writeabout.
It's called pathologicalpersistence and it was a coined
(07:10):
term by a psychologist, robertHill, and he went and studied a
gentleman, a guy named Doba.
He was a Polish gentleman whowas decided he was going to
kayak across the Atlantic Ocean,and I don't know if you heard
this story, but Dober, byhimself, when he's 65 years old,
(07:32):
kayaks across the Atlantic.
And then after that he kayakedagain across the Atlantic and
again across the Atlantic, andthen he climbed Mount
Kilimanjaro where he finally, atthe top, had a heart attack and
died.
And what Robert Hill says is,when they let me go back to
(07:53):
Doble what they asked, they saidwhy did you do this?
He says it was inevitable, itwas something that I was
destined to do.
I had to do it had to do it.
And so when he talks about whathe's, robert Hill attributed
that to a cellular levelpathological persistence.
And when you talk about grit.
I believe that it comes at acellular level in everyone that
(08:17):
has it, and it's not somethingthey can stop, it's not
something they can avoid.
Even myself, I have to get upand I have to do these things
every day and push, push on to,as I call it in my book, the
next mission.
There's always the next mission.
And guess what, when you climbto the top of the mountain,
what's there?
What's on the other side?
Another mountain, right.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
so that is one thing that is is, most people who have
that grit will continue thatgrit.
They will have that mission.
You need that mission and Ithink that for mental
health-wise you know, especiallybeing in law enforcement or
being in a protector community,you need to have a mission.
Now you could do your five, six, seven, eight years in the Navy
(09:00):
, seals or any military service,but the next thing you do is
you have to have a mission,whether, hey, you know what you
want to go, get it, be anentrepreneur, you want to be
your mission, great.
But you have to get on andfocus on something that can
bring a light to your mind.
Now you jumped into lawenforcement and NCIS and then,
(09:20):
like I said before, epa and thenNDOI.
It's missions, differentmissions, and you're like me,
I've jumped around differentagencies, but there's a, there's
a reason for it and you'realways.
You need to excel Right.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I don't know if you're familiar with Colonel
Grossman's book on combat andthe analogy he uses with
sheepdogs and how they are theprotectors of society.
And you mentioned the mission.
And I think guys like us, wehave that innate ability or
trait that we want to go out andwe want to protect people,
(10:00):
trait that we want to go out andwe want to protect people, and
so we're.
We go into professions like lawenforcement, firefighter,
military, because these, theseare the areas where we're good,
that we're good at and we'recomfortable at and it it creates
a dopamine rush for us, andwhere we feel good about what
we're doing in our job.
Right, it's not about.
I remember a guy who used towork for me, who was a work for
interior.
He used to tell me all the time, Dave, so many days I would do
(10:23):
this job for nothing.
I'm having such a good time andthat's the occupation you
really want to do most of yourlife, right.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm glad you brought up dopamine.
You know the adrenaline, thedopamine when you are tracking
down a case and you have thatthread and you just want to keep
pulling it.
And you want to keep pulling itto see where it goes,
especially if it turns into alarge scale case.
Small scale cases are great andeverything and they're cool,
(10:52):
but when you start pulling thatthread and you start finding
other co-conspirators and you'relike, huh, where does this go?
Where does that go?
And these are the types ofcases you bring home at night
because your mind is alwaysthinking and so you're always
getting a little hit off of it.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, no doubt.
I mean if, if you're doing thejob of a special agent or law
enforcement, you're doingdetective work and and someone
has to force you to go to thenext level or go to that to do
that interview, maybe you shouldconsider doing something else
because I'd love that.
For me, the day I got the lead,whatever it was, it was the
first 48 hours were the mostimportant.
(11:29):
That's why they do TV showsright, like those first hours of
an investigation are soimportant to get to those
witnesses, to get that evidence.
And for me that was so excitingand I just I went from.
We would often, when I was withEPA in particular, we would get
a lead in and maybe my partnerwould get in our vehicle and we
(11:49):
would just go okay, we'll seeyou.
When we see you, we're goingout and we're going to start
interviewing people.
We would go from town to town,person to person, business to
business, stay out until we feltwe had enough evidence that we
were not going to be impeded by,let's just say, the lawyers
coming out there trying to stopour investigation.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, you know, epa is lawyers, lawyers, lawyers,
always.
And you dot your I's and crossyour T's with all those
investigations Always.
And you dot your I's and crossyour T's with all those
investigations.
Now in your book and Goliath,the Littlest Seals impractical
story about living your biggestlife.
I think it's funny because Ilistened to some of your other
podcast interviews and the onlything that pops in my mind is
(12:33):
like listen.
Whenever I hear about the seals, I think about the boats and
buds and all that stuff.
And you were five, three andyou were".
And you were like a buck,something wet.
How did you integrate that inwith the team?
I know we're kind of jumpingback to your SEAL thing, but
it's just been stuck in my head.
So you were on a beach and yougot this big-ass boat and you're
(12:55):
5'3".
Speaker 2 (13:02):
If you're talking about specifically with training
.
Um, yeah, you know, they groupyou in groups with people that
are close to your own size.
Okay, five, three and 110pounds.
There weren't many guys myheight or size.
In fact there was none.
I was the shortest guy andthese big rubber boats are about
120 pounds.
So you got seven guys in there.
When they first started boatcrew.
The problem was they are all.
(13:24):
The boat was all on the top oftheir head but it was still off
my head.
So there's this thing at theback of the boat was a blow up
skag which helps you steer theboat.
They used to make me run underthe skag so my head would at
least touch part of the boat.
So otherwise I was runningconstantly with my hands up in
the air trying to help otherpeople take the weight off the
(13:47):
boat.
So that is the physicalchallenge of but and I paid.
I paid the price.
I mean instructors would see,brown, your head's not touching
the boat.
They'd run over and they'dbuild a little mound under my
feet and make me stand on it.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You know, talk about learning something new about
yourself, right, because nowyou're going to have, because
you're your small stature,you're going to have more eyes
on you.
And then you're going to havethese guys who are, you know,
the fit guys from the academywho look like they could be like
football stars and quarterbacksand all that.
And then here you are notringing the bell, you're just
(14:24):
keep going, like we were talkingabout before you got the grit.
So that must've been kind ofinteresting for you to be coming
, you know, out of high school.
And then you get into this, youknow the seals, and all of a
sudden you're, you're, you'relooking around and back then,
listen, the only thing they hadgoing on was, you know, maybe a
couple of movies, maybe somebooks about Vietnam seals, but
(14:46):
there wasn't anything reallyabout.
There was no YouTube.
Back then you really didn'tknow where you're getting into.
But now you're in there andyou're looking around and you're
like, well, huh, yeah, how am Igoing to make this?
What was that?
What was that wave like in yourhead?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, I joined the Navy when I was 17.
So, lucky for me, I didn't knowanything about anything.
I was, you know, came from acoal mining town in Pennsylvania
.
I had no experience.
I hadn't been out ofPennsylvania ever.
And then, all of a sudden, I'mthrust into this situation where
, since there were no books, asyou point out, or movies, or
really to talk about whattraining was, I thought
(15:21):
literally I was going out to thePacific somewhere and be on an
island.
And you know, we were going tobe on a deserted island and
we're going to do this training.
And so, when I got to Coronado,it was a big relief that it
wasn't a desert island somewhere.
But that's how naive I was.
And so the good part is, Ireally didn't know enough to
quit.
I just knew that I wasn't goingto and that I was going, as I
(15:43):
said.
As I drove across the bridge toCoronado, I said the only way
I'm going to come off thisisland is if I graduate.
Otherwise they're going to haveto drag my dead body off, and
so that.
But that was the mentaldedication I had, that nothing
was going to stop me from doingwhatever was in front of me.
And, believe me.
There was a lot in front of methat I had no expectation that
(16:05):
was ever going to happen.
It was way harder and way moretorturous than I could ever
thought.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I can only imagine.
You know I was stationed in SanDiego I shouldn't say station,
that was.
That was my duty station forthe border patrol and for
customs slash DHS, but Coronado.
I remember driving over thereand seeing those guys running on
the beach and I was like oh,running in the sand for miles
upon miles and trying to keep upmust have been a pain in the
(16:31):
ass too.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, running was my Achilles heel and almost did me
in, and it was actually aturning point, not only in Bud's
for me, but in my life.
I was doing a training run andgot to the point where I had
fallen behind several othertimes and I they made me do some
really nasty things in order totry to get better.
And here I am I'm fallingbehind again and I thought that
(16:56):
was it.
My, I wasn't going to make it,I was going to fail.
The ambulance behind me wasgoing to pick me up, take me
back and that would be the endof my training.
And I had this epiphany thatthis was it.
I'm either going to run fasterand keep up with the rest of the
group or I'm going to die righthere on this beach book as like
(17:21):
an out of body experience whereI could was looking down upon
myself and all of a sudden Idon't even feel myself running
anymore.
I just sprint, I catch up toeverybody and I've never fell
behind again.
And what did that tell me wasit was all in my head.
My inability to do somethingwasn't because I physically
couldn't is because I mentallycouldn't get over the fact that
I thought I couldn't do it, andwhen I broke that barrier,
(17:44):
everything started coming easier.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
You know I can only imagine fast forward seven years
and I don't really want to geta lot into your SEAL career
because I have a feeling thebook is going to have a lot of
that and I really want thereaders out there and the
listeners to pick up the bookand Goliath Little SEALs and
Pract practical story aboutliving your biggest life which
is out now.
But I do want to say fastforward seven years and all of a
sudden you're at fletzy andthat must have been a kate walk,
(18:10):
one of the 1811 course.
I mean, compared to you knowthe training and deployments you
had before that yeah, uh, haveyou been to fletcy?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
did you go to fletcy?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
yeah, I think I spent about a year and a half all
together with all the differenttrainings and everything else
there remember the big deal.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Well, at least back in the day I don't know if they
still have it was the 500 pointpt score scoring perfect on the
pt score.
There was a wall with at thattime when I went through.
There's only a wall with likemaybe a couple dozen people who
ever scored 500.
And I walked in there.
I looked at that.
I'm like oh that's it.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's all we got to do.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
You know.
So I scored a 500, not once buttwice, because I had to go back
for EPA training when I waswithin C.
I scored a 500, and then I cameback with epa, with seven years
later, and scored another 500.
So to answer your question,yeah, the pt wasn't all that
difficult for me influence.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, well, it's good to get your mind going too.
You know, compared to like, youknow when you come from a, you
know a soft community and you'renot really.
I mean, yeah, you have to useyour mind.
There's a lot of differenttechnical aspects, especially if
you get assigned to like anIntel type slot.
But when you get there and youhave to learn, okay, well huh,
my whole life's been this forthis point, and now, all of a
(19:29):
sudden, I have to learn how todo investigations.
That must've been a really cool, exciting experience for you
too, because now you're shiftingfocus and you're being able to
go into using your mind more inyour body.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I love that part.
My degree is in criminaljustice, so it was really what I
was trained to do, in additionto, you know, just being
motivated to do it.
So I yeah, I was all excited.
I couldn't wait to get out andstart my first investigations.
And then my first duty stationwas at Marine Corps Base Paris
Island, where it all begins forthe Marines, and I had a great
boss.
I had probably one of the bestboss anybody could have had.
(20:08):
One of his sayings was Dave,there's not enough paper in the
world to explain why you didsomething that was not in the
manual, and this had six manualsand we read manuals over and
over.
He made us be so proficient,not only at being doing
(20:29):
investigations, but the way youdid them, and because everything
you did was was potentiallygoing to be seen in a courtroom.
And so he drilled that into us.
No matter what you do, you mayhave to testify about it, and so
that was the best way to startoff as a junior special agent.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You know, one of the last questions, because the
format of the show is a littlebit different.
Now we do book discussions,which I mentioned before, around
20, 20-some minutes.
So I really want people to pickup this book.
I'm picking it up myself.
I really want people to pick upthis book.
I'm picking it up myself, Ireally am.
I'm looking forward to it Cause, like you and I do have a lot
of similar career field as faras when it comes to post
military.
So what I would, I would dowant to ask you is and I like
(21:12):
this question what's your bestpiece of advice that you've ever
received and why and I stolethis from another podcast
because I was like you know what?
I never asked people that.
I mean, you have a 30-yearcareer, so I want to know your
best piece of advice that youreceived as a special agent or
(21:32):
as anything, your whole career.
30.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Um, hmm, hmm, Um I.
I think this is the mostimportant thing, um that nobody
um.
Your integrity is the mostimportant trait you can have for
anything you do, and no one cantake your integrity from you.
(21:55):
You have to give it away.
That is the most best advicethat I was ever given.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I love it, and that is if you ever get into law
enforcement and in military aswell.
Integrity is key.
If you have no integrity andyou lie, god forbid, you lie
under oath, you get gigliote.
You'll never your your.
Your career is done and it'sgoing to.
It's going to follow you andit's going to follow you the
rest of your career is done andit's going to follow you and
it's going to follow you therest of your career.
(22:23):
Now you are really into thetraining sphere.
I like that.
Training needs to be relevant,it needs to be engaged, and
that's actually my last questionfor you how do you remain
engaged and relevant in thetraining atmosphere, because
people have such short attentionspans now.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Providing training or training myself.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Providing training.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
That's a challenge.
Now you have to know youraudience is probably the most
important part of providingtraining that's meaningful,
substantial and will remain withpeople that you're providing
the training for.
So understanding who you'retalking to is the biggest
challenge.
One of my last jobs was I wasthe inspector general associate
(23:14):
inspector general forcommunication for an
organization, inspector GeneralAssociate Inspector General for
Communication for anorganization, and we provided a
lot of training and we provide alot of information to a very
large organization.
And for people to absorb thatyou have to be.
There's some elements ofproviding communication, whether
it's training or anything.
For people to absorb, it has tobe relevant, it has to be given
(23:42):
in a way that they willunderstand and are willing to
receive.
And then you have to, when you,when you provide the
information and training, youhave to get feedback from the
people you're training so thatto understand that, they
understand what you're relaying.
And then until, unless you can,unless they can, parrot back to
you information that you'vejust provided them, it's right
over their head.
(24:02):
And they're either glazed overfrom not understanding, not
interested, or you didn'tpresent it right.
And I've always said if thepeople I'm training or talking
to don't understand what I'msaying, it's not their fault,
it's mine, because I didn'tpresent it properly.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Perfect.
Well, david.
The book is Anne Goliath.
The Little of Seals ImpracticalStory About Living your Biggest
Life.
I appreciate you coming on.
I'm looking forward to havingmore conversations after I read
the book.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I'm available.
Give me a call, we'll haveanother chat.
Plenty of stories.
It was a pleasure to be here,thank you.
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