535 | William Fraass

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Bill Frost joins the podcast to discuss the crisis of toxic leadership in law enforcement and the importance of finding purpose after retirement.

• Morning walks as physical therapy and mental health practice after career-ending injury
• The increase in toxic leadership across law enforcement agencies in recent decades 
• How rushing promotions and political influence create poor leadership
• The problem of promoting people who aren't ready for leadership positions
• Why mentorship is critically important for developing future leaders
• The connection between good leadership and agency recruitment/retention
• How police leaders can stay true to their mission while dealing with political pressures
• The importance of having a mission after retirement to avoid destructive behaviors
• How legacy matters and why authentic leadership is remembered positively
• Frost's book "Leadership in Law Enforcement" and its focus on 10 key leadership traits

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Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
hey, welcome back to the protectors podcast.
Hey, we got bill frost.
What's going on, brother?
Oh, all good, just kind ofenjoying the foggy northern
california day and lookingforward to a nice, proactive
good friday you know exactly andwe were talking a little bit
before we hit the record buttonabout taking the walk in the
morning or just taking a walk ohyeah, no, it's the.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
I got hurt seriously years ago on the job, destroyed
my back, and kept on workingjust because I was a stubborn
cop and I wanted to keep, Iwanted to fight.
I could fight through the pain.
Well, after 20 years of thatinjury, it all came up on me and
blew my back out.
I need to stay moving to beable to be flexible during the
day so I could keep the painaway.

(01:01):
So I mean I get up everymorning 6 am which people laugh
at me for waking up at 6 am as aretired guy but I wake up at 6
am and I start out on my walk.
It's not a fast walk, it's aslow walk, but I get about nine
and a half miles in every fiveto six days a week and it allows

(01:22):
me to get my heart pumping, itallows me to get the body moving
, my back loosened up, but alsoit allows me to clear my head,
get out in this nice nature,enjoy and just kind of gets me
in a wonderful, ready set moodto get the day going.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I always tell people like, once you get past mile two
in a walk, then your mind'slike, ah, you know, let me think
about something.
Let me clear some things up.
Yeah, it's, I think walking isone of the absolute best things
ever.
And I always tell people, mike,if you, if you haven't done it
yet, just walk around the block.
And then all of a sudden you'regoing to be like, hey, it's
going to, it's going to catch on, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
No, once.
Once I started doing it and itwas my wife that really
encouraged me to do it, becauseonce my back went out the last
time, I was barely able to walkout and get out of the house.
And then she told me, just walkto the street corner.
Then the next day, just walkanother a little bit further and
a little bit further.
So I kept on going a little bitfurther and then at a certain
time I had to put that hardbreakdown because you just, or

(02:20):
before you know it, I'd bewalking 30 miles a day and
that's all I do all day.
So I figured that nine and ahalf miles takes me about two
and a half hours, two hours and40 minutes, and I do it early in
the morning.
It gets me going so I can dothe rest of the day and I see
wonderful sights.
I see people as they're wakingup.
I see sometimes I have to stepover the homeless in some of the

(02:44):
parks and that's not always anenjoyable feat.
But also it allows me to relax,get going.
I listen to some audio books, Ilisten to music and it just
lets me clear my head and getthe day going and it's just an
enjoyable time to myself.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know there's just so much you can get through
there and so much you can thinkabout, and to me it's like I
plan on my next day or I planpodcasts.
But when we think aboutpodcasts, you and I had
something we were talking aboutright before this started too,
was that podcasts, to me, are away you can have a good
conversation.
And one thing you brought upright before we hit record was
policing and scandals.

(03:21):
Policing and scandals.
Now I had a friend reach out tome the other day and sent me a
link in South Carolina aboutjust scandals in the police
departments.
And whenever you look, it'severywhere.
There's always something goingon somewhere.
It's whether someone can't keeptheir whatchamacallit in their
pants, or they're embezzlingmoney or just toxic leadership.

(03:42):
So let's get into the scandals.
Man, if we're going to changehow law enforcement is perceived
, you really got to look at thePR campaign and get rid of these
toxic leaders.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Exactly, and it's kind of.
I say that within the last 15years, 20 years, the toxic
leadership has exploded all overlaw enforcement.
And why is that?
Well, maybe it's becausethere's more media outlets,
there's more people willing totalk, there's social media
people are you give anybodyability to broadcast out there.
But also, I also think whywe're seeing more toxic

(04:15):
leadership is we're rushingpeople into leadership positions
that we never did before.
If you go back throughout lawenforcement history and I'm a
huge history buff, as you canprobably tell from the book spy
meeting that there have been badlaw enforcement leaders always.
There's no getting away fromthat.
But it just seems like thereare more and more now.
And why is that happening?

(04:36):
It's because we're gettingpeople, we're rushing people in
that they show potential, so weimmediately promote them to
ranks before they're ready forthose we're looking at.
Just testing is difficult, sowe're doing just book tests or
we are just doing a verbal test.
So a book test just somebodywho's smart, with no street cred
or no ability to interact withsomebody could pass a written

(04:58):
test.
Somebody who's a good BSercould go through an oral board
without a problem.
But we need well-roundedselection processes.
We need to be developing copsearly on and we need leaders to
be taking a step back, becauseas you progress and you start
moving up the ranks too fast oryou're continually being told,
oh you're great, you startbelieving your own hype and you

(05:20):
start believing you could doanything.
But also also, we've allwatched.
In every department there arepeople that you look at.
Go, how does he or how does shekeep on getting promoted?
I mean, the person's been ia'dfive million times.
Person can't keep his in hispants.
She couldn't do this, hecouldn't do this.

(05:41):
And you're looking going,what's going on here?
This person got caughtembezzling.
This person got caught cookingthe books.
Why are they getting promoted?
This person got caught for DUIand, wow, we got promoted to
lieutenant.
And it's like because they'resomebody's favorite, because
they're meeting some kind ofline that we need to promote
certain percentage of certainpeople to certain ranks.

(06:02):
It's because they make thephoto look good or because they
are good on the media, or it'sbecause they're somebody's
favorite.
Just look at some of thescandals that are right now in
San Mateo County in California.
You have an extreme, toxicleader as the sheriff of the
county who has not only chasedsome amazing people out of their

(06:24):
organization.
They're allowing somebody,basically, who's never been a
true police officer to havecarte blanche control over the
entire agency, and the person'sclaimed a famous reserve deputy
and now they're tellingundersheriffs and deputy
captains what to do and havingthe sheriff mandating political

(06:44):
people that have said she's nota good leader and a dsa
president standing up to thistoxic leadership.
They're having them arrested ontrumped up charges that the da
goes this isn't, this is bull.
Then you fly all the way to theother coast and you have the
former chief of department ofNew York PD who's technically
suspended right now.

(07:05):
That appears he was basicallyblackmailing a subordinate for
sex by holding overtime overtheir head and forcing sexual
advances, and also, as you dig,deeper going yeah, this isn't
the first time this has poppedup.
He's had inappropriaterelationships with other
subordinates at lower ranks.
They have been subject to IAs,they have gone through

(07:27):
punishment for deceit andsomehow they go from one star to
two star to three stars and,wow, here are four stars Now.
One of the biggest things isthat and there's so many that
pop up everywhere else there's achief in New Jersey who's
alleged to have defecated allover the building in front in
the hallways by desks andpurposely clogging up toilets,

(07:52):
shaving themselves onsubordinates' desks.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
You can't, really you can't.
I mean, you can go down a listand we'll do a caveat that
allegedly a lot of the stuffhappened at the other.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
yeah, yeah, how does this all start?
It doesn't.
There are signs in the past,but these are the issues we're
dealing with now and we'redealing with it more and more.
So we have to do something as aprofession to stop this
toxicity.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, you know, that's the thing.
It's like this is it?
You know?
I think the thing is thatsocial media helps.
It gets the message out there.
More people are aware of what'sgoing on, because before it
would just be like within a town.
You go to the council meeting,it may get a blurb in a
newspaper or a blog or whatever,but now with social media we
get to see all this stuff goingon.

(08:37):
But I remember back inleadership-wise, it's always
been that way, it's always beenlike.
I always called it the pat onthe back.
So leadership wise, it's alwaysbeen that way, it's always been
like the.
I always called it the pat onthe back.
So if you're like the like inthe military, you're, you're the
young lieutenant or whatever,and someone pats you on the back
at one time, says if you don'tfuck up, you're going to move up
, and then you become super riskadverse.
And that's the same thing whenyou're at, when you're a cop is

(08:58):
like you know, you make yoursergeant, whatever.
Someone pats you on the backand says, if you don't fuck up,
you're going to move up.
And but we found out later onthat you can fuck up and move up
by getting like the duis andeverything but.
But the reality is you startmaking all of your proactive
people not being proactive.
So then you have the theproactive.
Like I was assigned in san diegowe're in a proactive group and

(09:21):
they would put supervisors theyrotate supervisors through there
just so they could kind of thatrather than be out in the field
.
So that's the same way in all.
The leadership is like they get.
You get to a point where, like,you look at that star, you look
at that whatever, and you'relike I can make it all the way.

(09:41):
I could be a, a chief someday,I could be a captain, I could be
this, I could be that, and thenyou lose your authenticity, if
you ever even had it.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
You start chasing rank, which is the worst thing.
You want people that earn rankand decide to move up higher
because they're developing theirskills and they become the best
person for that position.
But they've earned it throughtheir work and through they've
earned it through their work andthrough they've demonstrated,
they've been shown that theymake the best decisions, they're

(10:09):
the best cops, they do the bestwork, they're not risk adverse,
they're willing to take thingson.
But it's not because of them.
It's because they want toassume more authority, to
influence more people, to pushthe department's mission out
there further, to develop in mystars.
I want my bars, I want this andyou know what I've been told
don't mess up and I'll be okay.

(10:30):
So how can I make a wrongdecision if I make no decision?
And then you have peoplewashing their hands and going oh
, what am I going to do?
I mean, one of my worst leadersI ever had used to have to have
the term.
I need a defensible position oneverything, and sometimes your
defensible position is it's theright thing and you can't

(10:51):
appease everybody.
But that's what happens isbecause of the political, a lot
of politics getting back intothe game.
I mean you look, law enforcementwas rife with political
headaches and influence from1900, if not even well before
that, until about 1950, 1960.

(11:14):
Law enforcement pushed a lot ofthe politics out, but over the
last 10 years I mean ever since,even 2014 with Ferguson and
everything like that thatpolitics have pushed their way
back into law enforcement likecrazy.
So you have police chiefs, youhave sheriffs, you have
commissioners you even haveranks below that, trying to
appease politicians by playingthe game, by saying the right

(11:36):
phrase, by trying to parrot thecompany line and trying to look
like they're everything foreverybody or trying to make sure
they mention the hot topic ofthe day.
And they're not actually trulygot that solid background to be
law enforcement leaders, butthey're moving up because of
political outreach and we got tokind of separate ourselves from

(11:58):
politicians again because it'sthe police leader's job to tell
the political leaders Iunderstand where you're coming
from.
That's not my role.
My role is to enforce the law.
My job is to ensure publicsafety.
My job is not to play politics.
They should divorce themselves.
However, too often you'reseeing the police leaders, or

(12:20):
even command ranks, abettingthemselves next to politicians
or talking about political goalsinstead of policing goals,
which is a disaster when ithappens.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, the other thing is politics are tied to the
budget, so you know you have tokind of appease them in a way.
You know there is and thatreally depends on your
leadership style If you couldplay both worlds, and that's
kind of where the whole key thatcomes into leadership is,
understanding that.
You know obviously the missioncomes first, your people come

(12:51):
first, like the that wholevariable.
But you have to, you have toplay the game, but you have to
really have morals when you doit and not your own goals.
You know, I wrote this note.
One of my friends was a cop andthey used to tell me about their
chief and I wrote this likeback last January, I think, or
January 2024.
I was just taking notes howthey were telling me about, like

(13:13):
their um, how their chief acted.
Now, this was someone who camein, they were, you know, a
training sergeant and then allof a sudden they got promoted,
the chief in a small town and itseemed like the whole time was
like this inferiority complex.
It was this like you know, theyovercompensated, they were
buying equipment when theyshould be focusing on training,

(13:34):
they were doing this andeverything other than policing
because they didn't have.
The experience brings us backto what you said before about
promoting people before theirtime.
Listen, I love people who have agreat leadership potential and
they've done the work and theyknow what they're doing and
they're very for their people.
But don't take someone becausethey're a good old boy and

(13:56):
promote them into a chief job,even if you have a 13, 14, 15
person department.
You really have to.
You have to really groom trueleaders and that's where the
training comes in, that's wherementors come in mentors outside
of your agency and that's whereit comes into like stay divorced
from the politics when it comesto leadership.
So there's there's so manyvariables when it comes to, like

(14:18):
, toxic leadership that it's allconnected.
The politics are connected, theyes men are connected, the pat
on the back is connected andthat self-preservation is one of
the biggest things about.
The legacy becomes more aboutthem than the department, more
about them than it becomes thepeople that they are supposed to
be empowering.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
One of the things I hate hearing is from top command
staff, be it chief captains,commanders, whatever that say I
will not take a chief's jobuntil I'm able to retire,
because I don't want to be anat-will.
I could lose my job at any time.
Well, if you're not willing tolose your job for taking a stand
for your department or fordoing the right thing, well,

(15:00):
you're not willing.
You shouldn't be wearing thosestars in the first place,
because sometimes your job is totell the politicians that's not
right.
You got to be that person, yes,and are the disaster of any
organization, especially for lawenforcement, and 98% of all
police chiefs and sheriffs andtop command staff are good cops.
They're doing the job the bestthat they can.

(15:21):
We're only talking about the 2%, but that 2% has been growing a
little bit more each year.
A little bit more each yearbecause we've gotten away from
teaching about leadership, we'vegotten away from mentoring.
We basically are we need tohire people.
We need to hire people as manyas we can.
We need to make sure thatcertain demographics are hit.
We have to make sure that weare representing the community.

(15:44):
Well, what community are yourepresenting?
We have to be fair.
Well, what is fairness?
There's so many things that areimpacting the job and leadership
, but also the pad, like youwere talking about, the pad on
the back.
When you promote somebody withpotential but doesn't have that
experience level yet, then youput them in positions where now
they're trying to supervise ormanage incidents that they never

(16:06):
even handled as an officer.
So they are trying to learn asthey go while teaching and
controlling others.
And mentoring is such a hugeevent that we're losing out.
For when I was writing my bookyears ago, I got a chance to
interview Charles Ramsey, whowas the commissioner of
Philadelphia police at the time,and he told me the number one

(16:27):
issue we have in law enforcementright now is mentorship.
We don't mentor well, and heactually used an analysis with
the military.
He said look at the Army.
There's reasons why people likePowell and Petraeus move up
because they're recognized at anearly age for their abilities
and then they're givenassignments and they're pushed
and they're given differentchallenges.

(16:49):
Well, how often are we actuallytruly looking at our leadership?
How often are we truly lookingat our departments, identifying
the leaders young, and then notjust patting them on the back
and saying, if you don't mess up.
You're going to move up, butyou're giving them hard
assignments.
You're giving them challengingthings so they can grow.
You're giving them thoseassignments that nobody wants

(17:09):
but need to get done.
You're challenging them to thepoint where sometimes they feel
like they're going to fail andyou give them that rope to make
them get that close to the edge.
But then you're there to helpthem.
We have to get back to lookingat developing our people, taking
care of our people, and when wedo that and we remove the I

(17:30):
from the job and when leadersstart being selfless like they
should be, we start developingbetter comps, we become better
leaders and we start healing theorganization.
And once selflessness becomes acore trait and mentorship
becomes a core trait of yourorganization and not just a
pamphlet on your wall and notjust a book and policies of

(17:51):
mentorship policies orleadership policies, but it
becomes part of your agency'sDNA, then you're going to get
that toxicity out of the job andonce that happens in one
department it spreads to asecond department.
Then you start teaching it inthe academies.
But we have to do a better joband part of that is law
enforcement has to start lookingat our past leaders and
learning from them again,because in the last 10 years,

(18:13):
everybody said everything in lawenforcement since past 2014 or
before 2014 was horrible.
No, there have been bad cops orbeen evil cops.
The majority of them have beengood cops.
So let's learn from thoseleaders who build up the
profession that we're working inor worked in now.
Learn from them.
Take what they did, amend it soit works.

(18:35):
Now for today.
The cadets at West Point theyknow who Eisenhower is, they
know who MacArthur is, they knowwho Patton is.
You go to a New York PD kidjust graduating from the police
academy and you said, hey, tellme.
They could barely tell you,probably about Bill Bratton.
They probably wouldn't be ableto tell you about Louis

(18:56):
Valentine, who was thecommissioner for second longest
in Ray Kelly, and they wouldn'tbe able to tell you about the
other magnificent leaders likeJohn Timoney, max Schellenberger
, people that go through theirhistory where you're going, oh,
or Gertrude Schimel, the firstfemale chief of NYPD one star.

(19:16):
But it's like, hey, why don'twe know about that?
Because you're not learningfrom those true icons and
pushing it forward.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
You know, listen, history repeats itself, it says.
You know, leadership isessentially the same leadership
as it has been for thousands ofyears.
You know, you watch out foryour people, you lead them, you
lead from the front and the keything is, you make a decision.
Hesitancy kills.
We know that, especially in lawenforcement and especially in

(19:45):
combat operations, especially inanything like that.
But you need leaders who canmake decisions but have been,
they've been tested.
You know what happens is youget leaders, you promote them up
and they have never been tested, they've never had to do that
work.
So that's the big thing is like.
Really, you have to, you haveto understand your history.
And it's easier for themilitary because there's a

(20:07):
million different books, amillion different things.
But nowadays people want thejob, they want the, they want
the badge and a gun and it's,believe me, it's been like that
forever.
But now it's like they're notdoing the research.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Some, some of them, don't really have a clue what
they're getting themselves intoif john timoney once said that,
um, anybody who knows anythingknows that leadership repeats,
that history repeats itself andthat we need to that lessons get
learned.
But anybody who knows about lawenforcement knows we don't
study our history and that isbad because nothing's going to

(20:46):
be exactly the same.
But if you've learned from whatother people have done, when
you encounter a situation that'ssimilar, you have a game plan
of what to do.
So you could follow that gameplan.
You could also learn from hey,we are facing a scandal now.
Well, in the past this is whatthis agency did or this is what
this person did when they hadthat scandal.
So let's see how that works.

(21:08):
But also, you can learn thosetraits of hey.
This person was a horribleleader, and now I'm seeing this
new person and they'redistributed.
They have the same traits andthat's past individual.
So let's make sure we fix thishere or we get rid of it.
And we've got to realize thatwe're not in a bubble.
Everything that has will beagain and we need to continue to

(21:30):
well, push forward.
Remember our past, learn fromit.
But everybody wants to rebuildthe profession every 10, 20
years.
Well, every time we do that, weforget what we know and we're
starting from ground zero.
We're never getting ahead inthat way.
So let's embrace the greatness,let's acknowledge the failures
and let's just push forward.

(21:50):
And when we're teaching thisstuff, it can't be just at a
department level.
It has to be at the basicacademy level.
It has to be during yourin-service training, it has to
be on the department level andthe organization.
So you know the profession andyou know your department's
history.
But when they send you off tothe national academy, the
southern police institute, thesenior police management class

(22:12):
that perf puts on, they shouldbe teaching history and
organized in the history ofprofession or policing in these,
not just the hot topics of theday, because we're facing the
same thing over and over again.
You just change the name andyou change the department.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
You know, you hit that nail on the head right
there.
It's the same scandals.
You've always had dirty cops,you've always had bad cops,
you've always had bad people.
There's always criminals andthere's always criminal element
that rise in the ranks.
There's always criminal elementthat's in the ranks.
It's so.
It's just if you know historyand that's why I think when

(22:50):
you're, when there are criticalincidents or just anything let's
say you're in a smalldepartment and you have
something that happens youshould have an after action.
You should be like, okay, thisis how we responded, because
leadership changes but staffchanges as well.
You know, you look at some ofthese departments and you're
rotating so many differentpeople out that that continuity
operations, that the people whoknow what's going on are moving
on.
And especially now, you have alot of young leaders, young

(23:15):
people put in management,because I know a lot more
leaders, young people put inmanagement who really have no
clue and they're reinventing thewheel day by day.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Exactly, and that's where the mentorship comes in.
True training programs come inand also a department's
philosophy, installed early onand then enhanced by it being
pushed in every rank you go to,and ensuring that we're not
rushing people with talent, orwith perceived talent, to the
next rank just because we thinkthey can be there.

(23:44):
Next rank, just because wethink they can be there.
They have to put in their work.
You have to have a talent butyou have to have ability.
You have to have both.
Somebody used to say that youshould never take a job unless
you're capable of doing that jobat that moment.
Well, you never know if you'recapable of doing the next level
until you're in there.
But you can show traits thatyou are ready and that's when
you get pushed.
You're given better, harderassignments, you're put in

(24:06):
assignments that push youthrough your comfort zone and
that you're given theopportunity to fail, because
sometimes you'll learn more fromyour failure.
But you have to realize and youlook at the people.
But it also goes to are theyprincipled?
Do they do the right thing forthe right reason at the right
time?
If somebody's, as an officer,is doing the right thing for the
right reason at the right time.
If somebody's, as an officer,is doing the right thing for the

(24:27):
right reason at the right timeand you look at that philosophy,
that person will probably dothose three things the right
thing for the right reason atthe right time, at any rank
they're in, up until chief orsheriff.
When you look at people thatstart kind of I'll color out the
lines here or you know what, Iwill step away and maybe this

(24:48):
isn't the best thing or maybeI'll do it later.
When you start makingforgivenesses to those the
three-pronged test they're goingto make forgivenesses at any
rank.
So that's where we have toidentify early groom and prepare
.
And like I've always told peopleI don't care what race you are,
I don't care what sex you are,I don't care what religion you

(25:09):
follow, I don't care what yournational origin is or your
orientation is.
I just want the best people forthese positions.
You give them the bestopportunities, you work them
hard, you give them challengesand you allow them to fail and

(25:29):
you teach them while they fail.
But you're there helping themand you're developing and you're
giving them the hard truths andyou're having those hard
conversations with them.
Those are going to be theleaders of the future.
Not just because somebody goeshey, you know what?
You look good in a uniform.
You look great in thedepartment photo.
You handled this one callpretty decently.
Let's pop you over here.
I hate, I always call the heropromotions.

(25:52):
You do one thing that'sspectacular and before you know
it, they're throwing rank on youand you go yeah, you did great
in that.
Just because you handledyourself in that tactical
situation wonderful.
Does that mean you're going tobe able to lead 10, 15, 100,
1500 people?
No, but maybe you can.
Let's develop you, though.
We rush people too fast in thisjob now because we want the next

(26:16):
leader.
For some reason departmentsfeel like they get bonus points
if they have a young leadershipstaff.
Well, usually young sometimesmeans inexperienced, sometimes
it doesn't.
You can have a 22-year-old withmore life experience than a
40-year-old.
However, having time on the jobactually has a major benefit,

(26:39):
because the fellow officers aregoing to look at them with more
respect.
They're going to have morestuff in their file.
They're going to have morestuff in their memory banks.
They're going to be able toknow how to do the job better.
So it's a balancing act, butyou've got to look and go.
Let's not rush good people,because if we rush them because
I've seen it in my ownorganization we rush people with
potential and then they had ahorrible time and they had made

(27:03):
mistakes and they had issuesbecause we put them in positions
they weren't ready for.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
You know that's the Fed world too.
It's like if you have one bigcase you know, one of my
classmates from years ago hadreally just one big case and I
can't even tell you how high herose off of that one case that
got handed down to him and youknow it's just one big case can
make a career and that's why alot of them are always looking
for these big cases.
But then you have thestreet-level agents who are out

(27:30):
there all the time working,working, working.
They know the ins and outs ofeverything but they'll never
make it past you know a regularagent Because they don't for one
.
They see they don't want todrink the Kool-Aid and they
don't want to compromise theirmoral compass.
So it's an interesting fieldthat trying to groom leaders is

(27:52):
tough, because I think a lot ofthe officers and agents and
sheriff's, deputies andeverything they look at it as
like, okay, well, I'm not goingto drink the Kool-Aid, I can't
be one of the guys or girls andit's not worth it.
That little pay bump is notworth it because the next thing
you know you're off the street,you're doing admin stuff all the
time.
There's got to be a compromisesomewhere.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Being on the street is the fun thing.
Being that street agent, beingthat street, the officer working
the beat, being the sheriff'sdeputy out in the far out in the
urban or suburban area, workingon those areas those are the

(28:34):
fun things.
Going to the calls are the funthings.
However, there comes a time.
If you want to see change inyour organization, you have to
stop bitching about leadershipand you have to become
leadership.
And that is the.
That's where leaders, themanagers of the department and
the people with rank have tostart having these conversations
with the good senior officersand those sergeants and saying,

(28:54):
hey, you want to see a change inthis agency.
It's time for you to step up,get out of the fun job and
taking the people to jail allthe time working the cases.
Get out of this fun job and goto the next step where you could
get fulfillment and you couldalso have more of an influence.
You want to bring goodleadership in, bring the stuff
that you have on the street intosupervision, into the

(29:17):
sergeant's ranks, into thelieutenant's positions, to the
captains, to the chiefs.
Let's get those people on.
But that is for leaders and forpeople that have been on the
job to actually tell theseofficers, I know where you're
coming from, because I was thereat one time and the reason why
I promoted is because I neverwanted that person to be my boss
.

(29:37):
You need to look into yourselfand have that feeling.
Do you want that person to beyour boss?
Do you want that person thatyou can't trust as your beat
partner to be your chief?
So that's where the good streetleaders, those good detectives,
good beat officers, good streetagents, have to go.
You know what?
It's time to go into thenon-fun positions and step up,

(30:02):
because those people will bebetter leaders than those that
go.
I want to be a chief.
You go into any job going.
I want to be a chief.
You don't want to do any jobgoing.
I want to be the chief, I wantto be the director.
It's the same as if you're inthe military and you talk to a
first lieutenant and they go hey, what's your goal?
I want to be the.
I want to be the CENTCOMgeneral.
What are you talking about?
You're a lieutenant.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
You have to learn a little bit before you do
anything.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
You never want those people that are so power hungry
because they're going to dothings for themselves.
You want the people that I wantto be the best I could be, and
then I want to be the best atthis position.
I want to be the best of thisposition and at a time they'll
have that aha moment in whichthey go.
You know what I could have?
A I could have a little bitmore of a bigger impact in my
this position.
Let me go for that.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
You want, want.
Those are the people you want.
Well, you also want people thatare going to be like hey, you
know what?
Uh, I'm not just going to takethis job because it's a bump in
my pay and I can retire with myhigh, whatever three or five.
Because, you know, and at theend of the day, you're going to
find a lot of people towards theend of their career and they're
like I got to jump intoleadership, I got to be
management, and then all theywant to do is just sit there and
retire in place and get thathigh, that high pay.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
And I.
That's one thing, me and abuddy of mine.
He was a Lieutenant in myorganization.
He always says well, thedepartment should have promoted
this person for one last year sohe could have had one high.
He could have walked out withbutterfly wings, kerfulls,
stripes, and the guy wasn't.
The guy wasn't worth it.
The guy wasn't worth it.
The guy wasn't a leader.
He should have never beenpromoted.
You don't just give somebody agift of a promotion for that

(31:31):
last year and if you're lookingto get into leadership ranks
just because you want to bump upthe last couple of years of
your career, you're going to berisk adverse because you're not
going to want to endanger yourpension or you're going to be
hey, you, I'm just.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
I'm retired on active duty and we've all worked for
those people that where is theperson?

Speaker 2 (31:53):
well, they can't be wrong if they're not on scene.
It's like okay.
Well, why am I, as a juniorofficer, making a call that a
sergeant should be making?
Because they haven't shown upto the scene yet and it's been
20 minutes.
So it's that balancing act.
That's where having adepartment that puts leadership

(32:14):
ability into their people.
So when those people move upand they're that management core
and they're looking down who'sour next people to promote, they
could look and go.
I understand why this person'sputting in for the position and
it's not for the right reason.
So that person's not acandidate.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
You know, it also comes down to recruiting too.
So if you have a great moralmorale I should say not moral,
but a good morale the reputationis going to get out there.
Your social media is going tobe like hey, you know what these
people they?
They look like they're reallybonding together, they do a lot
of work together, they'retraining good together, and then
you're going to have morepeople that are going to want to
join your organization.

(32:51):
So that's, you know.
Get rid of the toxic leadershiptraining.
Get real training in, or don'tfocus so much on you know what
the next cool toy is for yourdepartment, but get your people
training as well.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Exactly, if you talk to people in agencies, the
biggest thing that keeps peopleat an organization is the
organization's leadership.
Do they trust the leadership?
Do they have a feeling that theleadership trusts them?
And that also helps.
If you have good retention,you'll have good recruiting,
because those officers who staywant to talk about that agency.

(33:24):
They want good people to comein.
Look, we're having agencies nowthat are giving insane hiring
bonuses to people a hundredthousand dollars work for this
agency and that's multipleagencies now and it's because.
Why are they doing that?
Because good people don't wantto work for those agencies.
Because of leadership issues,because people are continuing to

(33:47):
leave.
They also you're seeing, uh,incentives for people to stay
huge numbers and they're tryingto keep these people to stay,
but people aren't.
They're continually leaving.
Why bad department culture, badleadership?
If you actually have gooddepartment leadership, you're
going to have good retention,You're going to have good

(34:09):
recruitment.
And there we go, hand in handjust trying to buy people.
Those people are going to go.
Hey, you know what?
I'll get a hundred thousandfrom this agency.
I'll work there three years.
I'll jump to this agency, getanother hundred thousand bonus.
I'll keep on doing this.
Seattle is a perfect example.
You look at how hard they'vebeen the last few years trying
to keep cops.

(34:30):
They've raised pay, They'veoffered great incentives and
they're still losing officersand nobody's joining their
agency.
Why Bad city leadership?
Horrible city leadership.
I mean they were the onespushing the.
Our policy is going to bedefund the police.
Now they're moving away fromthat, but then until recently
they had horrible departmentleadership.

(34:51):
You had another bad chief thatmade bad decisions but also was
doing stupid things with his ownstaff Going.
Hey, you know what?
That's?
Sending love poetry tosubordinates and stupid things
like that.
Well, that's bad departmentculture right there.
What do you think is going tohappen from that?
I mean, you got to look at this.
If we want good cops, we haveto be that good cop, and too

(35:15):
often we lose that.
And once we lose that, that'swhere the leadership and the
culture of agencies go down.
There are so many good agenciesand good leaders that you don't
hear about, because they'redoing the right thing for the
right reason at the right timeand they're supporting and
taking care of their people.
I used to tell my captain, whenI was a brand new sergeant, my
two goals.
I have two goals every shiftand if I get those goals done, I

(35:37):
have been successful.
Did we accomplish our missionand did I take care of our
people?
If I'm able to say both ofthose, no matter what happens,
it's a good day.
That stayed my philosophy as Iworked my way up through the
ranks.
But we need that philosophy ofselflessness and mission and too
often we get blinded by so manyother things the coffee with

(35:57):
the cops, the national nightouts all these different things.
Communities really don't careabout those events.
Truly, the only people thatshow up at those events are
people that love cops, thepeople that are on the
borderline and the people thathave the hat.
You know, maybe, maybe not.
They don't really care aboutthose.
What people care on all levelis are cops solving cases?

(36:20):
Are cops getting the bad guysoff the streets?
Or do I feel safe walking downmy neighborhood If people, if
you're able to say yes, yes, yesto those those are the marginal
people that maybe don't likecops, maybe do like cops.
They move over to the we likecops.
That's where the people that goF the police we don't like that
they start moving towards themarginal people going.

(36:40):
Well, I kind of don't believein a full law enforcement state,
but I really don't like the guyslinging dope on my corner, so
I'm kind of glad that guy's gone.
So we got to get back to thebasics and stop the buzzwords.
We got to stop buzzwordpolicing.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
You know, I agree, buzzword policing is a thing and
, like you know, I love thoseaccounts like cops of TikTok and
all the other stuff becauseyou're just like it's
self-promotion.
A lot of it is self-promotionand the people who jump at a lot
of those categories areself-promotion.
They want the follows, theywant the likes, they want to be
the influencer they want to setup whatever their next, their,

(37:15):
their next side hustle is goingto be the ones who are truly
authentic.
You could see them, you couldtell what they're doing they're.
They're not just out thereself-promoting and taking the
selfies with the look at me I'mhelping this person out, but
they're actually helping thepeople and that reputation works
Getting out there and actuallybeing and not being an asshole

(37:36):
and doing your job and beingprofessional about it and
knowing your job, knowing caselaw, knowing your statutes,
knowing what you can enforce andwhat you should kind of be like
.
Hey, you know what.
I'll let this person slidebecause I have the authority to
do it.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
You don't always have to be the guy or girl with the
tinted glasses on and I'm holierthan that because I have a
badge and gun.
Yeah, you got to know how tointeract with everybody.
You got to be able to, andthat's where I learned really
quickly, because the agency Iworked for we were right next to
San Francisco.
We were a very high affluentcity and we were a small city,
but we had San Francisco a mileaway from us.
So we would be dealing with themillionaire 95 year old

(38:22):
grandmother and then two secondslater, dealing with a hardcore
gang member out of San Francisco.
But there's two different waysto treat those people.
You have to.
You can't treat a gang memberlike you're doing that little
old lady and you can't treat thelittle old lady like you're
doing the MS-13 dude.
So you got to be able totransfer and you got to be able
to realize each situation callsfor something different.

(38:42):
You can't be the hammer all thetime.
You can't also be officerfriendly all the time.
But you got to know how to workeach situation and you can't
know how to work each situationuntil you're authentic with
yourself.
This is my strengths, this ismy weaknesses, this is what I'm
really good at, this is how Icommunicate and this is how I do

(39:03):
my job.
This is the type of cop I'm at.
You never learn what kind ofcop you are until you're
actually a proactive cop.
You have to get yourself intodifferent things.
You have to get yourself.
You have to be the guy makingthe traffic stop so you do pull
over that little old lady whodoesn't understand what's going
on and may have dementia, so youhave to help her out.
Or when you make that trafficstop with a pimp and a hooker in

(39:25):
the car who's been in threegunfights with law enforcement,
you know that you treat them alittle bit differently and it's
the.
It's kind of like being adetective.
You're chasing down differentcases.
Well, depending on whatdepartment you're in and what
your workload is, you're goingto be given this case, which is
a political headache case, oryou're going to be given this

(39:46):
case, which is a politicalheadache case.
Are you going to be given thiscase, which is more of a felony,
but it's not a dangerous felony.
So which one are you going towork on?
You're going to get heat to dothe political case, but you've
got to realize this politicalcase is just to make somebody
happy.
No suspect information, no,nothing.
So you let that one die and youwork that felony case, knowing
that once a felon's a felon,they go on to do different

(40:07):
things.
But you have to be know thatwithin yourself and you have to
balance that workload.
And also that's where I comefrom is you're going to be a
good cop when you're going outthere, being proactive and
learning how to deal and talk todifferent people.
You have to put yourself intodifferent assignments and you
have to be in differentassignments so you learn
different parts of the job andyou learn how to deal with

(40:28):
different people.
Never be a check the box person, because those people only take
assignments to check the box sothey can move to the next
position.
But take positions to makeyourself, grow and learn,
because when you're doing that,you look at things differently
from the patrol level as fromthe detective level.
You look at things differentfrom working street patrol to

(40:49):
maritime enforcement.
You look at things differentworking different types of
investigations.
So you need to make yourself abetter cop, which will then make
yourself a more respectedleader because you actually know
how to do the job by gettingyourself into different
assignments, being in them forlong enough, where you actually
know what you're talking aboutand you're not the 90 day
wonders.

(41:09):
Or I read a wonderful book byuh called the generals, by
thomas rex, and he was talkingabout how vietnam, everybody
lost faith in the officer ranksbecause they did their six
months and they were out.
However, the enlisted guys werethere for a year.
It's like whoa this.
The guy finally learns how totie his shoes in combat.
And now he's gone and nowsomebody else comes in.

(41:32):
Why?
Because they're funnelingpeople in so everybody gets
their chance.
You got to get away from that.
You got to get back to.
Let's get somebody two, three,four years of experience, then
put him in another assignmentand then another assignment.
So that's where being thatproactive cop and having a
department that understands thatand getting those experiences
makes you a better, well-roundedofficer in dealing with the
community as well as doing copwork.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Well, you hit the nail on the head with that one
too.
It's like you really do need awell-rounded experience.
And you know, because a lot ofpeople are like I want to be
SWAT, I want to do this, I wantto be specialized units, but hey
, you know what you got.
You got to learn how to dopatrol.
You have to learn how toactually talk to people, like
really talk to people and notjust be like authoritative, like

(42:16):
, hey, you know what you canelicit information from people
if you have a certain demeanorabout you.
So, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
That's a big thing yeah, because you'll look at it.
And if you look at a cop whoknows how to talk to people on
the street and are able to getpeople to do what they want do
what the officer says, notthrough hey, I'm a cop, you're
not do it you look at thatperson.
Then later on you go as asergeant.
When they're talking to theirsubordinates, will they be hey,
joe, can you do me a favor, dothis, or is it?

(42:42):
Hey, officer, I'm your sergeant, I'm ordering you to do that?
Well, hold on for a second.
Neither one's going to work,but you're going to see.
The person who's moreauthoritative as an officer will
be more authoritative as asergeant.
So you'll learn those peopleearly on and you go okay, I know
what I'm dealing with.
And will that guy really orgirl be a really good leader?
Will they continue to move up?

(43:04):
I mean, you show the sametraits, no matter who you're
dealing with.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Absolutely, man.
Well, you know, the other thingI want to talk to you today
about is, you know, pivoting,you know starting a new mission
when you get done with this job.
Because you know, you and Iprobably come from the same
adage of, like you know, whenit's your career, it's your
career, that's the thing you didyour whole life with.
And then, when you're whenyou're done, you're like oh shit
, I need a mission, I needsomething else to do.

(43:27):
So how was your, yourtransition, getting out?

Speaker 2 (43:31):
You know what?
It was sudden because I wasn'texpecting it to happen.
When I did, I suffered aninjury back in 2002 that I
ignored for many years and Ilearned to live with the pain
and it only got worse and worse.
And 2022, when I was the actingchief of police, my back
completely exploded on me andprobably within six months I

(43:52):
knew I probably would not beable to come back, but I was
getting that treatment so I hadsome leeway of thinking before I
actually was officially retiredbecause of medical leave and
stuff like that.
What am I going to do?
And it was hard for me thinkingI'm not going to be an active
cop anymore.
And I was telling my chief, whohad to retire because of his
own medical issue, that it'shard for us because we've been

(44:15):
cops for so long.
I started as a reserve when Iwas 19 years old.
He started as a reserve fromwhen he was like 20.
He had 45 years in or something.
When he retired I had 27.
And I was talking to him and Isaid you know what?
I'm always going to be a cop.
I may not be an active duty copanymore, but I'm still a cop.
But it's hard transitioning.
When I grew up in a lawenforcement family, my father

(44:38):
was a chief of police, my unclewas a sergeant.
My wife did 36 and a half yearsin dispatch, retired there as a
dispatch supervisor and nowshe's a records and evidence
supervisor for a different lawenforcement agency.
So police work is in my vein,in my blood.
So I knew I wanted to get outand I wanted to still have a

(44:58):
purpose.
So I started looking at whatelse I could do to help the
profession.
What else could I do tocontinue to keep my hands in?
And I thought you know what mynext mission is to be?
To talk about the profession,to tell the hard truths that
need to be told, because I can.
Now I want to offer myabilities to talk to groups.

(45:20):
I want to provide consultingservices and investigative
services and I want to be of anassistance to agencies because
they're so short staffed rightnow.
I want to be of an assistanceto agencies because they're so
short-staffed right now.
I want to be able to helpofficers learn from my
experiences and command staffslearn from my experiences, and
not because I was so successfulor because I always did the
right thing.
I want them to learn from myscrew-ups, from the mistakes I

(45:42):
made, from the mistakes mydepartment made.
So they learn from that.
So look at going into thattraining aspect.
Going into the consulting hashelped me transition because it
allows me to still have justenough of my teeth in the game.
But I now have the freedom thatsomebody comes with a big pile
of stinky poo poo and say, hey,you know what we're working on,

(46:04):
that I can look at it and go.
You know what this officer isbeing railroaded.
I really don't want my hands inthat.
Or that is a mess that tookyour department 60 years to fix
or get to and now you want toput a window dressing on it.
You guys can deal with that.
But also I wanted to get myword out there a little bit.

(46:26):
So I republished a book I wroteand I also have written some
articles about leadership, lawenforcement and being able to
transition that way and have myhands in a couple other ways has
in uniform almost every day.
I read all about lawenforcement.
I was cop to the.
I was cop centric, I was, andguys looked at me and told me

(46:53):
you know what?
You're never going to retireand I always knew that at age 50
, I was going to retire.
Because of my back.
I didn't expect to retire at 47, but it happens.
But now I have them coming tome going.
I never expected that you'dhandle retirement so well.
We always thought that you'd bebegging and you'd have such a
hard time getting out of the job.

(47:14):
You're handling it wonderful.
How did you do it?
Because early on, when I knew Icouldn't come back, I identified
what my next mission was.
I said I want to do this.
I said I want to do this and Idon't want to do it because I
want to make a million dollars.
I want to do this, I want to dothis.
I want to do it because I stillenjoy law enforcement.
I want to do it because I couldbe of help and I want to do it

(47:34):
because there are a lot ofpeople like me and you that see
what's happened to the job rightnow and we love the job so much
.
We want to fix the issues thatare going on.
That often when you're still inthe job, you're handcuffed to
be able to do so.
Let's have these hardconversations, and I figured I
could get these hardconversations going more as

(47:54):
being the outside elderstatesman talking and saying,
hey, these are the issues whereI screwed up on.
I don't want you to screw up on, let's talk about it.
So that has helped quite a bit.
Also, I just made sure I'vetaken time for myself with the
walks to clear my head, that Ispend time gardening, I I do

(48:17):
things that I didn't have timeto do before, to give myself
purpose and to give myself thatleeway.
So what it's time, let me getmy head out of the game a little
bit and do things I didn't havea chance to do before, and that
helps help dramatically as Itransitioned into my after-comp
life.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
You know, if, without a mission, that's when we see
people start self-destruct,that's when we're like, okay,
you know, let's numb this loss,the loss of brotherhood,
sisterhood, and then you knowyou start the drinking, the
drugs, the self-destruction, anda lot of people go down that
path.
That's one thing I always tryto bring up in these
conversations is that pivot intothe next thing is to start

(48:57):
thinking about your next mission.
Now, you knew you were injured.
You know you might have to goout at a certain time, but then,
unexpected, moving out, youknow you really have to
accelerate that mission.
But I tell everybody out there,if you were in for two, three,
five, 10, a hundred years orwhatever, not a hundred years
but you know that you have to.

(49:17):
You have to have an out.
You have to have something elselined up, not necessarily like
a.
I mean, we're not talking jobsor you're.
We're talking about justsomething that's going to give
you a sense of purpose, becauseif you don't, you're going to
get to certain dark areas and weknow in this job and we know
just in life in general, thatyou can get down into a dark

(49:38):
spiral area pretty quick.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Oh, yes, you can.
I mean with the things we'veseen in our lives and the things
that we've seen then on the job.
We've seen the worst of theworst, we've dealt with the
worst of the worst, and thenalways, though, when you're on
the job, you have people thatyou could talk to.
You have people, you have yourB partner you've gone through
the situation with.
You have your fellow agents,officers at another agency that

(50:02):
were on the scene with you.
You have those people thatyou're built in support.
Well, then you walk out thedoor one day and you don't see
the same guys four times a week.
You're not spending 12 hours aday with these people.
You're not having breakfast andlunch with these people every
day.
You're not sitting down andtalking to the same people at
the desks BSing every day.
All of a sudden, you sit theregoing well, you know what.

(50:24):
My wife's at work and I'msitting at home and it's me and
the cat and I'm staring at awall.
What am I going to do?
You have to start thinkingabout this and you have to start
identifying things early.
I used to tell one of thesergeants who was under my
supervision when I was alieutenant and a captain.
When you're in your positionnow, look at the people around
you and one day, when you, ifyou decide to move up, try to

(50:47):
pick the people you want to beon your staff, be on your team.
Well, I also would say, now,when you're doing the job, take
a look and see if the job endedtomorrow, what would you want to
do?
And then also think when thiscareer does end, at 50, 55,
whatever age, what do I want todo?

(51:08):
And start segueing you in yourmind that way, because that will
give you a mission to continueon.
Because, unfortunately, we allknow those cops, we all know
those soldiers, and once you getout, you sit in a room and you
drink all day.
You don't do anything, youstart living on memories and
your mind starts going numb.

(51:28):
And that's where the drinkinghappens.
Like you said, that's where thedrugs happen, but that's also
where the mental facilitiesstart breaking down.
I mean I've known people thatretired after being cops for
long periods of time, thatwithin four years had dementia
because they were no longermentally stimulated.
And I mean I learned that along time ago that you have to

(51:50):
start.
Keep your mind going for whatthe next challenge is.
I remember talking to my dadwhen he told me during his
career he always figured what amI going to do next?
And then he was lucky that hewas able.
When he retired he wanted towork at a golf course and he did
that for a long time and heenjoyed that and him and my mom
did a whole lot of traveling andnow he's going to be.
He's been retired 30 years.

(52:14):
He was a cop for 32.
He's been retired for 30s.
I've been loving every momentof it.
And then also I remember talkingto my uncle who was uh with the
, was in the army.
World war ii, 80, 82nd infantrydivision saw combat in saipan
and okinawa, or actually 83rdinfantry division, and he told
me what got him through the warwas thinking what am I going to
do after the army?
What am I going to do next?

(52:36):
What am I going to do?
I'm going to play baseball fora while.
I'm going to go back to school.
I'm going to get inconstruction.
He goes.
That made the firefights goaway a lot quicker.
That made the terrors ofsitting in a foxhole in the
middle of the jungle somewherehearing people, hearing the
japanese and broken englishscream things about what they're
going to do to us.
That takes things that madethings break go away a little
bit easier and he goes.

(52:57):
When I left, it was hard.
It was not as hard to look downand go.
Well, my e6 stripes are gone,but guess what?
I'm just going on to the nextmission.
So it's learning that at anearly age and then telling
people about it.
And that's where it's veryimportant that podcasts like
yours exist, because you'regenerating those discussions,
you're making people think aboutthat and I know when I started

(53:20):
in 1996, we weren't having theseconversations, we were not
talking about it.
I mean, and even prior to thatwe weren't talking about it.
We need to address these issuesearly on and tell people early
on to have these game plans sothey can develop them as they go
through the career.
So when that door crashes andthe door closes for everyone,

(53:41):
the job ends for everyone andthe hard truth is, once you walk
out the door a day later,somebody's going to be in that
position you were in.
That's just nature of the beast.
That has to happen.
It's not a personal thing, butbe ready for that and we need to
prepare people for that at thebeginning of the career, not at
the end of the career yeah,you're, you really are just a

(54:01):
number and it doesn't matter ifyou were the, the best leader in
the world.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Uh, people are going to remember the really really
good leaders, everybody, always.
They remember the really shittyones even more now.
They always remember that.
So, at the end of the day, youknow, to recap, like what we
talked about today, it was likewe did bitch a lot about
leadership and about toxicleadership, but the thing is, at
the end of the day, those toxicleaders, their legacy is going
to be shit.

(54:27):
So you could think you're thebest thing since sliced bread,
but at the end of the day, whenyou retire and you move on to
whatever your next career is,and if maybe that doesn't work
out, everybody always going toremember you as a shit leader.
So that's just a word ofcaution.
That, if you see, if you everlook in the mirror and you go
huh, yeah, well, and that's theother thing too is like the shit

(54:51):
leaders never haveself-reflection, never, it's,
they're narcissists.
So it's just, it's one of thosethings.
But remember like legacy is thething, and if you are a
proactive leader, if you are asolid leader, people are going
to remember your legacy as beingwow, that dude was pretty solid
, yeah, and that that's onething you want to leave.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Yes, you want to have that mindset, because when
you're a solid leader, they'regoing to remember that person's
solid, but also you're going tohave the reach outs later on.
Hey, just checking in on you howyou doing.
Thank you for this.
I remember when somebody waspromoted to sergeant I got a
message from them hey, thank youvery much for all the time you
spent with me.
That meant everything to mebecause the guy was a good cop.

(55:30):
I worked with him a lot on alot of different things and he
was a good man too and he gotthe job.
And it's just, I don't know howoften I lay to bed at night
thinking about my mistakes or Icould have done better here, and
I was upset about that, andthen I talked to other people go
oh, no I never lose sleepbecause I think I'm always right
.
You're like what?

(55:51):
I mean?
I made calls that I back up tothis day that I know hurt people
because they didn't like it, orpeople got punished because
they needed to get punished andI like the person but it had to
be done.
But it's like then you havepeople that go.
I know, you know, I have noproblems with any of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
I never had an issue making a decision.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Well, guess what?
Then you weren't making thehard decisions, then you weren't
looking going.
You know what?
Does this person continue toget employed here, or does this
person not?
Did I make the right call inthat tactical situation, or
could we have done better?
Did I put my people at risk?
Well, you know what you have tothink about, but if you do

(56:33):
things for the right reason atthe right time, you're always
going to have oh my God.
But you'll have the peoplelater on reaching out to you,
talking to you, chatting withyou.
I mean, I'm in a little chatgroup of two active cops and
myself and another retired copand we're constantly talking and
they still accept us because wewere authentic.
We never claimed to be thegreatest.

(56:54):
We made our fair mistakes, wescrewed up, and I take great
pride in seeing the successthese other two have had since
I've gone and it's like, yeah,that's what I like.
And they still acknowledge theywouldn't be giving us crap if
they didn't like us and the badleaders just disappear.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
If somebody's not busting you and you know having
jokes with you, because I do thesame thing we have I have like
two or three different groupchats going on at one time with
people I work with throughoutthe years and it's like if
you're not busting each otherevery day, or just here and
there, then there's somethingwrong.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
So let me ask you the last question, and I've started
doing this a while ago what isthe best piece of advice that
you have ever gotten?
You have ever gotten, and why?

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Best piece of advice I ever gotten was be careful who
you associate yourself with,and why.
Because I was told that earlyon in my career and it was told
to me by a captain who I hadgreat respect for, and he told
me that because a lot of copsget segued with hanging out with
just the fun guys and bespending time with a lot of the

(58:07):
people that look like they'rethey the outgoing, the laughing,
they, they're moving around,they're doing all these things,
but then, as you like, laterlook on, you go oh they were
kind of doing things a littleshady, or they were.
They were cutting corners hereor their reputations were not
all that good amongst theirpeers, let alone anybody else,

(58:29):
and they were constantly pushingthe limits, but pushing the
limits of seeing what they couldget away with to do the least
amount of work as possible.
So I took that and I learnedfrom that and I said you know
what?
I always want to beapproachable to everyone, I want
to have good relations witheverybody.
But I got to make sure I realizeI pick and choose.

(58:49):
I pick very carefully thepeople I really wanted to have
as trusted advisors and trustedfriends in the job and I've
taken that as part of my ownlife core.
I'm very selective of who myfriends are, because I've seen
people go and I think they'reone thing and they turn out to
be something else.
So I learned that a long timeago from a wise captain and it

(59:12):
stayed with me forever becauseit has helped me get out of jams
before I was ever in them,because I avoided putting my
foot into the water.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
That's actually great advice.
Hey, you know I forgot to askwhat is your book and how can
people find it.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
My book is Leadership in Law Enforcement 10 Key
Traits of what Law EnforcementAgencies Could Do to Develop
these in the Future Leaders.
You can find it on Amazon andyou can find it on my website,
wwwcode3consultingcom.
There's a section that saysorder book.
It basically takes 10 core keytraits of leadership from

(59:51):
selflessness, mentorship,decision-making, education,
presence, fairness, embracingchange, having the strength to
challenge, communication, teambuilding, interpersonal skills,
and it uses the experiences of31 notable law enforcement
leaders from departments acrossthe country, big and small, to

(01:00:14):
nail home the importance of eachtrait.
And then it also gives words ofadvice how, as a leader, you
can develop them better inyourself but could also then
enhance and develop your futureleaders.
I's been.
I got very lucky.
I have a lot of people havetold me they like it.
Thankfully, I never.
I didn't want to write somethingthat nobody would like, and

(01:00:37):
some agencies are using it aspart of their leadership
development programs.
It has been used as the conceptof talks I've given to the FBI
Command College.
I've presented this informationto the International Chiefs of
Police and the book has alsobeen endorsed by leaders such as
General Petraeus, former ChiefStephen Sund of the US Capitol

(01:00:59):
Police, from Matt Eversman ofthe I believe it was Third
Rangers, most famous for Battleof Montevichu has been endorsed
also by Sergeant First ClassSammy Davis, a Medal of Honor
recipient from Vietnam, as wellas notable police leaders Randy
Sutton from the Las VegasMetropolitan Police Department,

(01:01:21):
jim Dudley, who was a DeputyChief of San Francisco PD, and
several others that have foundthe leadership concepts in there
solid and clean and important.
So I tell people you know what?
I'm not an expert on the job.
I want people to learn from themistakes I did, but let's take
the lessons of the great leaders, put it forward and learn from

(01:01:42):
them, learn from our history andjust truly embrace our
leadership and embrace the jobso we do better and we encourage
the next generation to dobetter than what we were.
And it's about 240 pages andit's written by a cop for

(01:02:04):
regular people.
It's not written in some hightoo academia or anything like
that.
It's written for people to go.
Let's pick up the book andlet's bring it out in the field
and let's make it work.
And here it is.
It's a good book and Iencourage anybody to check it
out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Awesome.
Well, I appreciate you, Bill.
Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure and an honorto be on the show.