September 28, 2025 • 14 mins
Marcy Sagel is based in Baltimore, Maryland where she runs MSA Interiors. Her firm specializes in design of multi-family apartment projects nationwide. She is working at a very high level with some of the most notable developers in the nation. To connect with Marcy, visit https://msainteriors.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Real Estate Espressal podcast, your morning
shot of what's new in the world of real estate investing.
I'm your host, Victor Minash. This is the weekend edition
where we interview notable people from the world of real
estate investing. Today is no exception.
We have a great guest all the way from Baltimore, MD.
Welcome to the show, Marcy Sagel.
Victor, thank you so much for having me.
Well, Marcy, great to have you here.
(00:23):
You come from the world of interior design and I'm excited
to have this conversation. We've only had a few interior
designers on the show, but maybebefore we do, perhaps give a
little bit of your back story and how you got to this point in
your journey. Sure, specialized in interior
design. Wasn't quite sure at the
beginning whether I wanted to doresidential or commercial.
(00:43):
And I had a client who I was helping fit out a multi family
cabinetry and he asked me if I would do the design for his
multifamily jobs. And he was heading up a very
large public company and that was sort of the kickoff for us
working in the multifamily arena.
(01:04):
And I grew my business from there.
And he was an incredible mentor to me.
Not only was he running the company, but he was also an
architect. So we worked side by side and
grew a lot of their multifamily portfolio all through West
Coast, all the way over through the United States and into
Canada. He really helped to see things
in a different way and it pushedus into the multifamily arena
(01:28):
and we've been doing multifamilyever since.
I love it. Well, we too are developers of
multifamily and we do have our own in house interior design
group. And I can tell you from first
hand experience, we're going to have an interesting conversation
about this because there's so many different parts of the
scope that could be either delegated to the architect or
(01:50):
often case better to the interior designer to drive the
design early in the in the design process.
We try to start out when we do akick off, we try to give a scope
list to the architect and the interior designers and typically
it's in our contract with the developer right away.
We do a lot more than a lot of most, I would say most interior
(02:11):
design firms do. So we're doing a lot of not only
the initial space planning because we're usually brought in
very, very early. So we work on the space planning
and amenity selections. And then we also do the
elevations and we work in Revit,which is I'd say 98% of what we
(02:34):
do is Revit and we work in whatever year Revit a model that
the architect is working in. And we do our own in house
renderings, which is also very unusual.
And and then while we're doing all of those different scope
things at the end, we also are the we select the FF and E, we
(02:54):
purchase the FF and E and art aswell as any of the accessories.
And the whole team that worked on the job is actually there on
the job site for the installation.
So you're getting the same team throughout from beginning to
actually finished installation? I love it.
And and that really is a very full service offering.
We often find that an interior designer will simply focus on
(03:18):
maybe one part of the scope. They'll say, all right, I'm
going to work on the unit interiors or the common areas or
the amenities. But then, you know, when it
comes time to sourcing and then in particular overseeing the
installation, the wheels come off the bus.
Yeah, and we've seen this so many times, and we always say,
you know, the planning from the beginning is where you're going
(03:40):
to get the best outcome. We try to be very thorough,
engaging with all of our developers to make sure that
everyone's on the same page froma marketing standpoint.
Whether that means bringing the branding group in right away,
focusing on who that target audience is, looking at all of
our competitors in the area, making sure that we're doing
something different and unique that is to the audience exactly
(04:02):
that the developer wants it to be.
And then we take that focus and we really try to have, you know,
something more unique and different.
But also obviously construction costs have gone up.
We've got all kinds of other outside costs that have gone up.
And So what we try to do is we always work to a budget and we
stick to that budget no matter what.
(04:24):
So that is very, very different for designers to do.
So we know that developers are on a very strict budget and with
the construction costs that havegone up all of the cost all the
way around, we have to focus in on and being able to value
engineer right from the beginning.
So when we're picking finishes, our whole team will put the
pricing, what we call the, the purchase pricing, the contract,
(04:47):
the GC pricing on the back of the actual item.
So while the developer is selecting materials as a, as a
group, we're picking them and wegive them lots of options.
They know right away they can decide between two or three
different items because they we can tell them the price right
away. So if they're looking at a floor
or they're looking at a tile, wecan say this is $1.25 versus 250
(05:12):
so that you can instantly see where you're saving the money
and make a decision right on thespot.
I like it so much. I really want to go with the 250
tile. This is going to give it a lot
of, you know, like sort of bang for the buck.
So those are the different things that we kind of bring
value to. We know materials incredibly
well, so knowing your materials helps you to stay within budget
(05:33):
and fulfill that throughout the entire part of the job, right
from the beginning when we're getting those costs from the
different GCS that are bidding the jobs.
One of the things that we've often seen has not impacted us
directly, but we've managed to steer clear of it, is that
sometimes some interior designers have relationships
with suppliers and that ends up actually inflating the cost.
(05:56):
Whether there's a kickback happening in that process or a
Commission, however you want to phrase it, that can often drive
the interior design in the wrongdirection.
How do you protect the developerin in that?
So everyone in my office signs an agreement.
Everyone from every level because I think it's super
(06:16):
important that even if you do have relationships and you
prefer certain products over others, what I will say is we
won't use a product that hasn't been tried and true because the
place to try it is not in a multi family.
It's too expensive. The outcome of something bad is
too extreme. So we use things that are very,
very tried and true. We work with every product.
(06:37):
I've worked with a lot of manufacturers to help them
develop their product lines for North America, mostly for the
multifamily price point. So every one of my companies
signs an agreement. There are no kickbacks for us.
We don't work that way. However, I do know that
different plumbers and electricians and different
people through the GC may work that way.
(06:59):
So typically what we do to protect that is when would they
get the pricing back? If they say something's really
out of line or the pricing's toohigh and they need to VE it, I'm
like, well, what is the cost persquare foot price?
OK, Because that'll instantly tell me that a flooring sub
might be trying to sub out the product because they may be
(07:21):
making more money on a differentproduct.
But it dramatically changes the look and value of what we're
trying to give the developer. So we literally walk through the
whole process with the developerand the GC, making sure that our
products are held because that'swhat we all chose as a team.
And so the team, meaning the developer, the architect,
(07:41):
everyone's been involved in the decision making and we've chosen
it based on what we know to be 100% true is the price.
And that price we make all of our vendors give us what that
purchase price is from the GC. So we're, we're right in line
with where we need to be knowingthat they are marking it up
because they have that agreementwith the developer, but we're
(08:03):
not supposed to be getting anything from it, nor is anybody
else. So that there's not multiple
layers of markup. We're very transparent with all
of our markup and including furniture and we are buying
wholesale and we have been buying wholesale for a very long
period of time and have established the relationships
with many thousands of vendors. We want to see things held.
(08:25):
We see it in the majority of plumbing, electrical and
flooring or tile. Those are where we see a lot of
the the Subs or contractors wantto sub it out for something
else. And we really stick to holding
it. And we have relationships with
our developers and with the GCS and we tell them straight up,
(08:46):
you can't change that unless we all agree to it.
And the whole team is understanding why we're changing
that product out. One of the things that's we've
certainly as costs have increased, I know within our
company we've started to look attapping broader global supply
chains for all kinds of different products.
Some of the most beautiful tile we've seen at the best price
(09:08):
actually today is coming from Turkey.
And yet the current environment has made even making those
commitments a lot more challenging.
What's going to happen with is this going to get tariffed?
Is the tariff going to be a known quantity or is it going to
change in an hour? All of those sorts of things.
How has that affected your sourcing strategy?
So it's a, it's a great question.
So we have obviously vendors from all over the world.
(09:31):
We always have and we always will.
And so there are certain products that we select from
that can be ordered directly from that country.
And it's less, it's expensive when we order it directly and
give it enough time to come in overseas if there's a vendor or
let's say a sub waits too long. And we give them the time frame
(09:53):
that they need in order to get that price point.
So we're very clear when we submit our documents that that's
the time frame that you need. And so we tell the vendor once
the job starts, if you do not get an order in, we need to know
about it. So we can contact the GC and
subsequently the developer to make sure that they're following
(10:14):
that guideline of time frame. But in addition to that, a lot
of our larger companies that we purchase from have gotten many
different suppliers to supply them different types of products
that can either cut out the tariff or go into a country
where it's a less tariff to be manufactured.
(10:35):
A lot of them have sort of movedmanufacturing facilities to some
of those tariff countries that are less at this point.
And like I said, we do import and bring them in from pretty
much every country. I love it.
Now, one of the things that we often see when it comes to
making some of these early design decisions is the whole
question of choosing a particular design element,
(10:57):
because that design element is somehow going to add a certain
richness. But you might very quickly draw
the conclusion, oh, we can't afford that.
Whereas perhaps a different approach, more of a holistic,
more of a global approach might change the thinking.
How do you integrate some of these conflicting constraints?
So when we're working, we're we're making it a process to
(11:20):
work with the developer that as we're working through each of
the designs, we're also rendering it So the clients can
really visually see what exactlyit is that we're trying to show
them. And they're not trying to guess
at it. We're actually rendering it.
And the renderings are so close that, but they literally match
almost exactly when it's a finished product.
(11:42):
So you can really see how much that added extra cost is sort of
maybe adding to the value of that particular room.
And if we're on a certain budget, like I said before,
we're going to maybe lower the cost in some areas and add that
little sort of pop where we feellike it's more important and
more of an interest to the room and space.
(12:02):
So that's typically how we do itto kind of average out the
dollars. Often times amenities are, let's
say optional. Then in some cases they're
actually mandated by the zoning.How do you how do you value
engineer those? Yeah.
So we work with the management team to actually that's been
(12:25):
assigned to the project once it turns over and they it could be
anything from a large national company like a Grey Star to a
more regional management companyor to a self management company.
We have a lot of groups of developers that manage projects
themselves. They have their own team of
management people. So we kind of talk about that
(12:47):
there from beginning, like how many offices do you need for
leasing and what amount of desksdo you need?
And are you, you're going to have a touchdown area, Are you
going to have a concierge desk or no concierge desk?
What kind of packaging system are you going to have?
What kind of mail system are yougoing to have?
All of these questions we answerupfront with the management team
(13:08):
and the ownership team to make sure that we're developing and
designing the project as it's moving through the process of
figuring out what these amenities are that are going to
be a permanent amenity in that particular space.
I love it. Well, Marcy, if folks want to
connect, if they want to learn more, what's the best way?
We are best to be reached at msainteriors.com.
(13:31):
We will respond to you immediately if you have any
questions and we're happy to answer any questions on product,
on amenities or any types of units.
We do a lot of new direction forunits as well.
It's one of our specialties. We redline a lot of units from
architects and we help to get the cost down by making those
(13:53):
little tweaks and changes in thein the units themselves as well.
Terrific. Well Marcy, great to connect.
And for the listeners at home, you definitely want to connect
with marcy@msainteriors.com. The links will be in the show
notes. And in the meantime, have an
awesome rest of your weekend. Go make some great things happen
and we'll talk to you again tomorrow.
Welcome to the Real Estate Espressal podcast, your morning
shot of what's new in the world of real estate investing.
I'm your host, Victor Minash. This is the weekend edition
where we interview notable people from the world of real
estate investing. Today is no exception.
We have a great guest all the way from Baltimore, MD.
Welcome to the show, Marcy Sagel.
Victor, thank you so much for having me.
Well, Marcy, great to have you here.
(00:23):
You come from the world of interior design and I'm excited
to have this conversation. We've only had a few interior
designers on the show, but maybebefore we do, perhaps give a
little bit of your back story and how you got to this point in
your journey. Sure, specialized in interior
design. Wasn't quite sure at the
beginning whether I wanted to doresidential or commercial.
(00:43):
And I had a client who I was helping fit out a multi family
cabinetry and he asked me if I would do the design for his
multifamily jobs. And he was heading up a very
large public company and that was sort of the kickoff for us
working in the multifamily arena.
(01:04):
And I grew my business from there.
And he was an incredible mentor to me.
Not only was he running the company, but he was also an
architect. So we worked side by side and
grew a lot of their multifamily portfolio all through West
Coast, all the way over through the United States and into
Canada. He really helped to see things
in a different way and it pushedus into the multifamily arena
(01:28):
and we've been doing multifamilyever since.
I love it. Well, we too are developers of
multifamily and we do have our own in house interior design
group. And I can tell you from first
hand experience, we're going to have an interesting conversation
about this because there's so many different parts of the
scope that could be either delegated to the architect or
(01:50):
often case better to the interior designer to drive the
design early in the in the design process.
We try to start out when we do akick off, we try to give a scope
list to the architect and the interior designers and typically
it's in our contract with the developer right away.
We do a lot more than a lot of most, I would say most interior
(02:11):
design firms do. So we're doing a lot of not only
the initial space planning because we're usually brought in
very, very early. So we work on the space planning
and amenity selections. And then we also do the
elevations and we work in Revit,which is I'd say 98% of what we
(02:34):
do is Revit and we work in whatever year Revit a model that
the architect is working in. And we do our own in house
renderings, which is also very unusual.
And and then while we're doing all of those different scope
things at the end, we also are the we select the FF and E, we
(02:54):
purchase the FF and E and art aswell as any of the accessories.
And the whole team that worked on the job is actually there on
the job site for the installation.
So you're getting the same team throughout from beginning to
actually finished installation? I love it.
And and that really is a very full service offering.
We often find that an interior designer will simply focus on
(03:18):
maybe one part of the scope. They'll say, all right, I'm
going to work on the unit interiors or the common areas or
the amenities. But then, you know, when it
comes time to sourcing and then in particular overseeing the
installation, the wheels come off the bus.
Yeah, and we've seen this so many times, and we always say,
you know, the planning from the beginning is where you're going
(03:40):
to get the best outcome. We try to be very thorough,
engaging with all of our developers to make sure that
everyone's on the same page froma marketing standpoint.
Whether that means bringing the branding group in right away,
focusing on who that target audience is, looking at all of
our competitors in the area, making sure that we're doing
something different and unique that is to the audience exactly
(04:02):
that the developer wants it to be.
And then we take that focus and we really try to have, you know,
something more unique and different.
But also obviously construction costs have gone up.
We've got all kinds of other outside costs that have gone up.
And So what we try to do is we always work to a budget and we
stick to that budget no matter what.
(04:24):
So that is very, very different for designers to do.
So we know that developers are on a very strict budget and with
the construction costs that havegone up all of the cost all the
way around, we have to focus in on and being able to value
engineer right from the beginning.
So when we're picking finishes, our whole team will put the
pricing, what we call the, the purchase pricing, the contract,
(04:47):
the GC pricing on the back of the actual item.
So while the developer is selecting materials as a, as a
group, we're picking them and wegive them lots of options.
They know right away they can decide between two or three
different items because they we can tell them the price right
away. So if they're looking at a floor
or they're looking at a tile, wecan say this is $1.25 versus 250
(05:12):
so that you can instantly see where you're saving the money
and make a decision right on thespot.
I like it so much. I really want to go with the 250
tile. This is going to give it a lot
of, you know, like sort of bang for the buck.
So those are the different things that we kind of bring
value to. We know materials incredibly
well, so knowing your materials helps you to stay within budget
(05:33):
and fulfill that throughout the entire part of the job, right
from the beginning when we're getting those costs from the
different GCS that are bidding the jobs.
One of the things that we've often seen has not impacted us
directly, but we've managed to steer clear of it, is that
sometimes some interior designers have relationships
with suppliers and that ends up actually inflating the cost.
(05:56):
Whether there's a kickback happening in that process or a
Commission, however you want to phrase it, that can often drive
the interior design in the wrongdirection.
How do you protect the developerin in that?
So everyone in my office signs an agreement.
Everyone from every level because I think it's super
(06:16):
important that even if you do have relationships and you
prefer certain products over others, what I will say is we
won't use a product that hasn't been tried and true because the
place to try it is not in a multi family.
It's too expensive. The outcome of something bad is
too extreme. So we use things that are very,
very tried and true. We work with every product.
(06:37):
I've worked with a lot of manufacturers to help them
develop their product lines for North America, mostly for the
multifamily price point. So every one of my companies
signs an agreement. There are no kickbacks for us.
We don't work that way. However, I do know that
different plumbers and electricians and different
people through the GC may work that way.
(06:59):
So typically what we do to protect that is when would they
get the pricing back? If they say something's really
out of line or the pricing's toohigh and they need to VE it, I'm
like, well, what is the cost persquare foot price?
OK, Because that'll instantly tell me that a flooring sub
might be trying to sub out the product because they may be
(07:21):
making more money on a differentproduct.
But it dramatically changes the look and value of what we're
trying to give the developer. So we literally walk through the
whole process with the developerand the GC, making sure that our
products are held because that'swhat we all chose as a team.
And so the team, meaning the developer, the architect,
(07:41):
everyone's been involved in the decision making and we've chosen
it based on what we know to be 100% true is the price.
And that price we make all of our vendors give us what that
purchase price is from the GC. So we're, we're right in line
with where we need to be knowingthat they are marking it up
because they have that agreementwith the developer, but we're
(08:03):
not supposed to be getting anything from it, nor is anybody
else. So that there's not multiple
layers of markup. We're very transparent with all
of our markup and including furniture and we are buying
wholesale and we have been buying wholesale for a very long
period of time and have established the relationships
with many thousands of vendors. We want to see things held.
(08:25):
We see it in the majority of plumbing, electrical and
flooring or tile. Those are where we see a lot of
the the Subs or contractors wantto sub it out for something
else. And we really stick to holding
it. And we have relationships with
our developers and with the GCS and we tell them straight up,
(08:46):
you can't change that unless we all agree to it.
And the whole team is understanding why we're changing
that product out. One of the things that's we've
certainly as costs have increased, I know within our
company we've started to look attapping broader global supply
chains for all kinds of different products.
Some of the most beautiful tile we've seen at the best price
(09:08):
actually today is coming from Turkey.
And yet the current environment has made even making those
commitments a lot more challenging.
What's going to happen with is this going to get tariffed?
Is the tariff going to be a known quantity or is it going to
change in an hour? All of those sorts of things.
How has that affected your sourcing strategy?
So it's a, it's a great question.
So we have obviously vendors from all over the world.
(09:31):
We always have and we always will.
And so there are certain products that we select from
that can be ordered directly from that country.
And it's less, it's expensive when we order it directly and
give it enough time to come in overseas if there's a vendor or
let's say a sub waits too long. And we give them the time frame
(09:53):
that they need in order to get that price point.
So we're very clear when we submit our documents that that's
the time frame that you need. And so we tell the vendor once
the job starts, if you do not get an order in, we need to know
about it. So we can contact the GC and
subsequently the developer to make sure that they're following
(10:14):
that guideline of time frame. But in addition to that, a lot
of our larger companies that we purchase from have gotten many
different suppliers to supply them different types of products
that can either cut out the tariff or go into a country
where it's a less tariff to be manufactured.
(10:35):
A lot of them have sort of movedmanufacturing facilities to some
of those tariff countries that are less at this point.
And like I said, we do import and bring them in from pretty
much every country. I love it.
Now, one of the things that we often see when it comes to
making some of these early design decisions is the whole
question of choosing a particular design element,
(10:57):
because that design element is somehow going to add a certain
richness. But you might very quickly draw
the conclusion, oh, we can't afford that.
Whereas perhaps a different approach, more of a holistic,
more of a global approach might change the thinking.
How do you integrate some of these conflicting constraints?
So when we're working, we're we're making it a process to
(11:20):
work with the developer that as we're working through each of
the designs, we're also rendering it So the clients can
really visually see what exactlyit is that we're trying to show
them. And they're not trying to guess
at it. We're actually rendering it.
And the renderings are so close that, but they literally match
almost exactly when it's a finished product.
(11:42):
So you can really see how much that added extra cost is sort of
maybe adding to the value of that particular room.
And if we're on a certain budget, like I said before,
we're going to maybe lower the cost in some areas and add that
little sort of pop where we feellike it's more important and
more of an interest to the room and space.
(12:02):
So that's typically how we do itto kind of average out the
dollars. Often times amenities are, let's
say optional. Then in some cases they're
actually mandated by the zoning.How do you how do you value
engineer those? Yeah.
So we work with the management team to actually that's been
(12:25):
assigned to the project once it turns over and they it could be
anything from a large national company like a Grey Star to a
more regional management companyor to a self management company.
We have a lot of groups of developers that manage projects
themselves. They have their own team of
management people. So we kind of talk about that
(12:47):
there from beginning, like how many offices do you need for
leasing and what amount of desksdo you need?
And are you, you're going to have a touchdown area, Are you
going to have a concierge desk or no concierge desk?
What kind of packaging system are you going to have?
What kind of mail system are yougoing to have?
All of these questions we answerupfront with the management team
(13:08):
and the ownership team to make sure that we're developing and
designing the project as it's moving through the process of
figuring out what these amenities are that are going to
be a permanent amenity in that particular space.
I love it. Well, Marcy, if folks want to
connect, if they want to learn more, what's the best way?
We are best to be reached at msainteriors.com.
(13:31):
We will respond to you immediately if you have any
questions and we're happy to answer any questions on product,
on amenities or any types of units.
We do a lot of new direction forunits as well.
It's one of our specialties. We redline a lot of units from
architects and we help to get the cost down by making those
(13:53):
little tweaks and changes in thein the units themselves as well.
Terrific. Well Marcy, great to connect.
And for the listeners at home, you definitely want to connect
with marcy@msainteriors.com. The links will be in the show
notes. And in the meantime, have an
awesome rest of your weekend. Go make some great things happen
and we'll talk to you again tomorrow.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!