Dead City S1 E4 | The Walking Dead Universe

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Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hey, Hey, what is upeveryone? Welcome back to the recap of
the Walking Dead universe. Today,we are covering Dead City. If we
are here, every live Lord,I can't talk today. We are alive
every week to discuss the latest episodes. You can get our recap anytime,
available on most major podcast platforms,so get new and past episodes for free

(00:27):
in the podcast app of your choice, including YouTube. For those of you
joining us live tonight, thanks fortaking time out of your evening to be
here. I am your host,Tamara, and I love a good TV
show and a good book, soif you'd like to reach out to me,
you can find me on Instagram andTwitter, at the recap pods,
and if you're into books, youcan also find me at shelf Addiction.

(00:48):
Good Lord. Joining me is showco host Lisa. Welcome, Lisa,
Hey, Tamara, Hey everyone.My name is Lisa Orban. I am
an author. I am also thefounder Indies United publishing house, and I
love all things pop culture, soif you would like to connect with me
online, you can find me prettymuch everywhere at Indies at Lisa organ Author
or at Indies United pub You're infectingme, look, I blame it on

(01:10):
all the drinks I had this weekend. Maybe I'm so hungover. I don't
know, could be, could be, I don't know. But before we
get going, we want to remindyou that we would love your participation in
this conversation. So if you're listeninglive in the chat, please leave us
a little comment in the comments section. If you're catching this on the replay,
you can still leave comments, oryou can call us by using the
voicemail link in the show notes.So we do want to hear from you,

(01:34):
impossibly include your comments in the episode, so don't forget please like a
subscribe or if you're listening, ifyou are new to the podcast, we
are laid back in our review style, right, Lisa, absolutely, Tambra,
this is a conversation, not adissertation. Yes, no scene by
seeing breakdowns here. We jump arounda lot and of course huge spoiler alert

(01:55):
for everything in this universe through Sunday'sepisode. So if you're cool with that,
this is the place for you.And let's jump into episode four.
So what you think I liked it? You know? Um, I have
to admit though, I'm still notultra excited for this show, but I'm

(02:17):
enjoying it. Does that make sense? Like, I don't hate it,
And again I'm gonna go back withyou do not like Nigan. Those are
facts, okay. So and thefact that at this point they are rebranding
him essentially, M I know,you don't like and I barely like Maggie

(02:39):
anymore nowadays. I'm like, she'sjust getting This character is getting on my
nerves a little bit, you know, honestly, she's getting At this point,
I like Nigan way better than Ilike Maggie. M. It's at
some point you just have to getover it. And I realized Nigan did
a terrible thing. He rutally killedher husband in front of her, And

(03:00):
I get it, all right,But it has been what sixteen years now,
it's been a while, yes,all right, And and the thing
of it is, and I havea feeling that if she was not harboring
so much trauma, baggage, youknow, hatred, I don't even know

(03:23):
that she would be in this predicamentright now. Yeah, I know you
kind of you know, said thatbefore, But I think though this episode,
I have to give her a littlebit of credit because it seemed like
she was gonna, you know,tell Nigan that she took the matches and
what she did until she saw thathe has some he wasn't supposed to have.

(03:45):
He had ganister. So I feellike she was feeling like a little
guilty, you know, a littleI'm gonna tell you something. And she's
like, hold on, you're stilla bitch. I'm not telling you anything.
Yeah, But then he looked ather, he says, don't tell
me. You've never done it.Yeah, you haven't done things that you're
You're right here with me on andyou know, and it's true, and

(04:06):
she shut up. So she's justah. And because he knows he's right
at this point, well, shehasn't killed anybody, you know, she
knows it. His the girl thathe's been taking care of is somewhere on
this island. She knows it atthis point, and she has kept that

(04:27):
from him. Yeah. So youknow, again, we're all doing terrible
things right now. Right, that'sjust and I did honestly, All right,
guys, I gotta let you know. I have a batch of kittens
and they're trying to walk on mycomputer and I'm desperately trying to keep them
away and I'm very sorry. Soso you need a second we need a

(04:48):
third cam, like a kitten camto see the kittens. I mean they're
adorable, don't get me wrong.They're sitting here and they're playing with each
other and they're doing a little rompything. But then they keep romping on
my keyboard. It's when I keeppicking them up and moving them. So
if you hear these like little cliquesor weird noises, I'm not being attacked.

(05:09):
I mean it's they're like three ouncesof fluff, you know, stay
off the keyboard can stay off,I know. And then they're also trying
to eat my my my chords forthe my headphones. So it's it's a
good time by all around. Butanyway, so, uh, what was
I saying? Um, I likedthe flashback scene. M h and because

(05:31):
he's talked about it and and andhe's mentioned I mean this has been a
this has been mentioned before. UMthis and not before. It wasn't specifically
this guy, but it was somethingthat was talked about. UM. But
anyway, Uh, you get tosee kind of the the creation has a

(05:53):
um he has a style, andit seems to style and and it seems
you know, to be pretty mconsistent yep, because what he did to
the girl he then did to thatboy that was in the room that turned
out not to be um or notor herschel. Yeah, but you know,

(06:14):
there was there was fear in Maggie'seyes. She was like, oh
my god, she thought she wasgonna be fainting on the floor. I'm
sure. Oh yeah. And apparentlyall those rooms had things that were not
good in it because some of thelooks. They didn't show the rooms except
for like the like the blood onone and stuff like that, but there
were everyone was getting an eyeful anduh, you know, and I will

(06:42):
say they got in there remarkably easy. Yeah. Um, I mean we
knew by the end of it itwas purpose Yeah, like it was too
almost too easy. It's almost likethey should have known it was too easy.
Yeah. But I'm like, theyknow that he escaped, and any

(07:02):
rational person who you know, especiallysomeone who's as bloodthirsty as him, but
wanted to know how he escaped,and they he would have scoured that whole
place looking for the escape route.Um. The fact that it was open
and untended should have been a hugered flag. Yeah, they just pushed

(07:25):
themselves right in there, like brandyay, because Honestly, at first,
I thought that they were still kindof in like the subway and like the
subsub subway system, until they startedlooking in those rooms and I'm like,
okay, Yeah, that was ascene kind of flipped over really quickly,
and I thought I had missed something. But I'm like, I'm not going

(07:46):
back now. Yeah, no,because they were they were walking through the
tunnels. They were dead on theground, and apparently they're tired, um
because one guy kind of or theone zombie gotta lifted his head and then
dropped it back. Um. Butthen yeah, I'm like, that's weird
that there'd be electricity down on thetunnels. I'm like, well, then

(08:09):
maybe I thought, well, maybeit's a part of the stadium, you
know, or something, And thenI realized they were in the stadium,
and I'm like, huh, that'sodd. Yeah, definitely. So yeah,
I right after, when you know, when I realized, you know,
that they were in there, Iwas like, this is weird,
And if I were them, Iwould be feeling a lot more cautious and

(08:31):
a lot less optimistic. Yeah,I agree, I agree. Um,
But to go back to your originalstatement, that opening scene, it was
kind of fun to see Simon again. Yeah, yeah, we got a
problem and it was and I honestly, until they brought it back, I
forgot almost every scene with him init. He is like eating something.

(08:56):
You didn't you realize that now?Yeah, He's always got I mean,
he's always like picking up like littlebits of things. It's it's not like
a meal or anything, but itseems like he always had like I don't
know, like I don't know,like snacks. And there's another character that
does that, that's always eating.But well, I mean I could Iron

(09:20):
Man, you know, from YEAcouple characters said do that Now that I
think about it, like yeah,eating but m hm and um, so
as soon as I said, like, oh god, I've forgotten all about
that. It was one of thoseweird little things I always noticed about it.
He always had always had snacks.I'm like, man, apparently in
the in the Apocalypse, I needto hang out with him because he's got
snacks, you know, good stuff, probably snacks, and I love snacks.

(09:46):
Okay, I won't live off ofsnacks like I'm living off of snacks.
Okay, Um, but anyway,but yeah, I mean, but
yeah, when they had that flashbackI mean, you can see Egan was
just horrified. Yea, and heeven said really fast because he told her,

(10:07):
let I told you to let hergo. Well, she knew something
I said to let her go.And then you know that there were you
know, we don't we don't dothis. There's a line with kids,
mum, would you and I havetalked about it, but I think that
is actually the very first time itwas ever stated explicitly. It was always
implied, but this is the firsttime we ever explicitly heard any of his

(10:31):
lieutenants say this is not allowed,right, So you know, I thought
that was kind of interesting. Andum, and again even when if you
go back and you watch the oldepisodes, you can see that it's implied
there. Whenever dealing with kids,his demeanor changes, Right, he has

(10:52):
a much more tolerable personality when itcomes to the kids. He does yeah,
so and and weirdly, you know, it was kind of a little
bit reflected in the scene with theCroatian and and that kid in the in
the studio. He's terrified of him. Yeah, and he has almost that
same I don't want to call itbenevolence. You know that had towards the

(11:20):
kids that the kat I don't know, prod. I guess they he really
I almost feel like he admires Megan. Oh yeah, oh yeah you think.
Yeah. And he's definitely mimicking someof his stuff, right yeah,
well, you know the way thathe was, how he was treating that
kid, and there's there's other littlethings that you know, um, you

(11:46):
know, it's almost like he's likeNigan was big daddy to him, you
know what I mean, Yeah,he saved him right basically. Um so,
even though they had this fallen out, he's all like, hey,
okay, first, can I justsay the way that this character was saying
Nigan's name, I'm like, why'she saying his name like that? I'm

(12:09):
like, I know it's the accent, but it just I was so distracted
by the sing song anyway that hewas calling Nigan's voice, and it's like
the accent was like on the eand then it was like Nigan. I'm
like, oh, it's so distracting. But anyway, I'm like he is

(12:30):
totally like in love with that guy. For a better term. He was
so exciting. Yeah, he waslike welcome back, hey buddy, Hey,
But yeah, I know, yeah, I know, you shot my
ear up, but I have anotherone, so it's fine, it's fine.
I'm like, oh my gosh.And you know, and this guy
is actually crazy nuts enough honestly thathe probably really actually doesn't feel terrible terrible

(12:54):
about losing this ear because he kindof embraces islands as a response. Yeah,
he probably thought it was acceptable,acceptable loss. I have another one.
Well, and that just happened.You know. Nigan was upset,
and so he took it out onhim violently, and that's something he understands,
Yeah, because he does it withhis people exactly, you know,

(13:16):
So I don't think he thought honestly, I don't think he took it personally.
Yeah he didn't. It doesn't seemlike he did, you know.
And and so he thought, oh, you know what I need to do
now is um go out and showNigan that I can build the sanctuary.
And after that brief interaction, I'mbeginning to wonder if um he went looking

(13:43):
for Nigan and that's when he foundthe widow, you know, when he
found Meg Maggie, I don't know. Well, so we knew that he
had been catching up. You know, he's been like listening to what's going
on with Nigan in them right,right? So he's like, yeah,
I heard about what happened in sohe's definitely and he's like, you're still
helping the widow, So he's kindof been in tune with what's going on.

(14:07):
You're still the ground sort of thing. But yeah, I don't know
if he was exactly looking for him, you know, I think he was
surprised to see that he was stillhelping quote unquote the widow, right,
And so, like I said,I think it was more along the lines
of I think Nigan really wasn't whilehe was out doing other things. I

(14:28):
think he was looking for Nigan andand trying to find out because he is
so proud of what he has made. I think he's been trying to find
Nigan so that he could bring himthere and show him what he's done.
That is so whack, because hewas just you know, I you know,
I've been trying to keep up withyou, and you know, blah

(14:48):
blah blah blah. I'm so happyyou here. I wanted you to come
here and see all these things andlook at what I've done, and we
can turn the whole island into oursanctuary. And so I really think he
thought when Megan showed up, itwas welcome, welcome brother, he said,

(15:09):
Yeah, although I am distinctly afterthat final scene, I'm distinctly getting
the feeling that the Croad isn't evenin charge. Like he might be the
muscle, but he's not in charge. Yeah there's a woman, Yeah there
is a woman. Um, andyou know, I'm trying to figure out
are they gonna Are they trying toblow up that stadium because I know that

(15:33):
you know, there's there's methane andstuff, and they had all those cars
lined up, and honestly, Idon't even know why they did that.
Um, I mean, they couldhave just as easily gotten rid of these
people without losing their stadium. Yeah, there don't. I don't know if
they I mean, because technically thewalkers could come in there and then they
still would be kind of an ayou know, area just around right there

(15:56):
in close. So maybe they didthat on parts to like blow open the
you know, sections of the arenaor whatever, like a walk in.
It seems like an awful ways tokill what essentially five people. It does
seem kind of extreme. I thoughtthe same thing. I'm like, why
are you putting off explosives that bringmore of them to you with all the

(16:19):
noise? Yeah, because honestly theyreally had enough there in their own little
enclosure. They could have just letthose guys lose M and sealed the doors.
Yeah. I don't know, maybethey'll explain that a little bit.
I mean it was pretty flashy forthe scene as it was. You know,

(16:40):
like you said, it was likefive ish people, right, yeah,
I mean aside from Baggy and Diga, there's there was that uh what's
her name, uh name, yeahname, Mandy said it. Nope,
I know it's not that I'm gonnathink of it. Karina's gonna tell us

(17:04):
here to say, come to me, and yeah, Karane is gonna tell
us. Karani is gonna tell usbecause she's on it. Man, she's
good with names. Um. Itry to remember her name, and all
I get is, you know,you know, the little the MoMA number
five songs. That's what I gotgoing through anyway. So Jenny, Jenny,
thank you, Karina, you arethank you rock um So anyway,

(17:29):
um, So, aside from likeMaggie Nigan and Jenny, I mean there's
like five people they blew up anentire stadium, that their entire you know,
set up there to to kill fivepeople and not even watch the show.
Yeah, it seems weird. AndI mean that was a lot of
you know, fuel as well.They left it all behind us. I

(17:52):
mean you saw the cars taking up, but they weren't hauling fuel or anything
out of there. Yeah, Somaybe that's not maybe that's not their main
spot. Maybe that was just aquote like an outpost or something. Yeah.
Well, and there's also the factthat, um, you know,
the creation doesn't seem particularly concerned aboutthe fact that he's just turned the stadium

(18:15):
into a giant bomb. You know, he's you know, he's tickled,
he's running around, he's doing stuff. I mean, I guess he might
be in control of when the finalone goes off, but I don't know.
It's the whole thing was just kindof weird. It was kind of
weird, um and weirdly while watchingit, I really really enjoyed it,

(18:37):
all right, I really enjoyed thisepisode. I thought it was good.
I Mean, we had this,you know, the Harmonica story, you
she buried it in the buried itdeep, you know, and and the
flashback and and and and the wholeeverything going on. I really enjoyed it.
It's just the idea of blowing upthat whole thing to just kill a

(19:02):
handful of people just seems a littleI mean, honestly, they had enough
people to be another reason, right, Yeah, Because honestly, they could
have just been all hanging out upwith the bleachers with bow and arrows and
these guys could have run in andthey could have shot them all. Hmmm.
I mean legitimately, even if theycame in with twenty people, they

(19:22):
have the high ground and if you'reaccurate with a bow, I mean,
they could have just killed everyone asas they rushed into the stadium. Yes,
yeah, I don't know. Idid like how they killed, you
know, the walkers through the fence. That was kind of reminiscent of another
season I think it was first seasonor second season when they were killing them
through the fence at the prison.I'm like, oh, is that a

(19:47):
callback? Was that on purpose oris it just a coincidence. Well,
they've done it a couple of differenttimes. It first season they did it
a little bit, and that wasa lot of their counters at first is
they had like those chain link fencesbetween them and they were like pumping a
mistakes um and then they did itduring the prison and later on in another

(20:11):
later season they were doing that alot too. I just don't remember where
um or maybe that was Fear theWalking Dead. I don't remember now anyway,
but you know it was. Imean, I found and we have
absolutely no idea where herschel is atall. No there. I think he's

(20:32):
being kept somewhere else completely, He'snot even there, yep. I have
a feeling, you're right, yeah. And and honestly, knowing Maggie as
we know Maggie, I am almostshocked that she didn't break off from the
others and to keep looking for herschel, you know, I think she probably

(20:56):
suspected Honestly, I think she probablysuspect did that he's not there. They
looked through all those doors, youknow, they went through all of that,
and then of course all the herdsstarted coming. They all came in
that she didn't have a choice.But of course then when she saw you
know, Jenny, she's like chasingher little ass down, like Jenny,

(21:18):
Jenny come back, you know.So she I mean, I think she
still has her eye on the prize, which is her son. But I
think for once, she isn't thinkingin a reactive way. Yeah. I
just don't think she thinks he's there. I mean, and they're trying to
escape now, so she knows she'sgot to make another attempt, right.

(21:40):
Yeah. Did you see the previewsfor next week? No? I did
not. Oh my god, Okay, w t F. I don't know
what was in what is down inthe sewers, but it looks like someone
so a couple of Walkers gave hertogether to make him look like a giant

(22:00):
spider. You. I don't know, a new one. I don't know
what is going on. I don'tknow if maybe these bodies have merged together,
they've you know, liquified into eachother, or what is going on.
But that thing reared up and Iwent, oh, hiding and stuff.

(22:22):
I can't imagine anyone has the abilityor time to, you know,
start sewing walker's bodies together. Idon't know, something scientific or maybe as
a result of him, you know, liquefying stuff. I don't know.
I don't know. I mean,if anyone out there listening has any idea
what that thing is and wants tospeculate, I am open to suggestions because

(22:48):
all I was horrified, what isthat thing going on? I need to
watch the preview because I'm like,I don't know, I just I just
watch it, watched the little clipat the end, and then not turn
it off. I don't even hangaround and watch the preview. Yeah,
so yeah it was weird. Soanyway, so Maggie's gonna confront that thing

(23:11):
whatever next week. But but yeah, so and then we've got Nigan with
the Marshall. Oh my god,I wonder if the Marshal caught the comment
about you know, still hanging outwith the widow. I wonder if he
if he even caught onto that comment. Well, I'm sure he did.

(23:34):
I mean he said he admitted tohim right away, like when he showed
up. Okay, so when hesaid I've got what you're looking for and
he throws Percy's ass down there orwhatever his name is, he says,
you know, oh that's you know, he's I think he was shocked.
I think he was hoping it wouldbe hershal but it wasn't. And he's
like, look, I'm here forthe kid. He didn't even try to

(23:56):
like bullshit him about it. Yeah, I'm here for the kid. I'm
here for the kid. Yeah,for the kid. Yeah, for herschel
Oh you're so so hanging out withthe widow. How's that working out for
you? Very well? Right?And but for the Marshall, I mean
again, he has the story ofMaggie, that that Nigan killed Maggie's husband,

(24:21):
but he won. He doesn't knowthat that's who Maggie is. And
you know, so she is again, she's She's a bedtime story to him,
and right now he is chasing abedtime story. Yeah, essentially,
and so and then Nigan saves him. Oh my god, he saves him.

(24:47):
And then the guy wait, theguy likes what is that that he
shot into his leg? What wasthat? Oh it's one of those um
um Oh it's there for fishing,fishing cook. So I'm like, oh
my god, he's pulling that thingout his leg. I'm like, oh
my god. I feel for him. And I'm like, oh, great,
Deacon saved him. Now he's gonnahelp him return the favor. And

(25:11):
hell no, hell no, hellno. That guy tries to arrest him,
like are you serious, and hecites the sat statute even yes,
okay him fall I know he'd feellike, I should just let you fall,
man, I know, because ifhe had let him fall, he
probably could have gotten herschel from ormaybe not gotten herschel, but at least
gotten closer to finding out where herschelis or what's going on, you know,

(25:34):
because again, the he was,the crowd was willing with open arms
to welcome Nigan back. And ifhe hadn't toss the marshal into the mix,
you know and screwed up everything.Um and and again, I mean,
and Nigan could have let let himgo, but he chose not to.

(25:56):
And you would think that that Marshallwould have been I don't just a
tad more appreciative of the fact thathe didn't let him plummet to his death.
Okay, Like, dude, canwe at least escape here? Yeah?
Whor you're talking about arresting me?Can we get out first? I'm
saying, you know, whack,Like he is so stupid. I'm like,

(26:19):
that's not that's not going to helpanybody. No prioritse priorits yeah,
all right, and the priority atthis point is not arresting Nig and the
priority is getting out of there alive. You know. Um, he's stupid,
I hate to say that, butI'll come around this. I'm hopeful
that he might not stay stupid.This guy. I mean, it's not

(26:41):
even that I don't want to saythat he's rigid and he's he has dedicated
his life to the idea of lawand order and that will save us,
despite like want to does he nothave any sense of self preservation? Like
I have no idea that comes first? I know. And and he could

(27:03):
see that. I mean, hecould watch the interaction between the two of
them rapidly changed the minute that Negansaved him, And so Neigan kind of
gave up his chance to define Herschelthe easy way. Now we're down to
fighting Herschel the hard way, youknow, Yeah, Because I mean,

(27:26):
if he was thinking, he probablycould have acted like he was gonna befriend
him again and got some information thatway. But I don't know. Now
he knows he's running, you know, hiding from him. It's so although

(27:48):
I do give Nigan some credit becausethe way he kind of alerted him that
he was there with the whistle andhe's like, did you hear that?
Yeah, it was like, ohmy gosh, that was kind of creepy.
I liked it. You know,honestly, I was almost waiting,
um for Jenny to respond with thatwhistle m because you remember, because they

(28:08):
made a big deal of that oneof the flashbacks teaching her that whistle.
Well, I don't think she was. Yeah, you know, she was
back where Maggie was with the carsin the car park area, I guess.
Yeah, But Nigga wasn't that farbehind, because remember Maggie was supposed
to be getting a car, andif Jenny hadn't arrived and run off,

(28:36):
that's where she would have been inthat car. Although she did find it
odd that you know, when shegot in there was a hardy keys in
the car, so they were allready to go. Yeah, I mean,
so cocky that they just leave thekeys in the cars. Yeah.
But again, I mean she thefact of how dead that place was.
Um, so my guess is ishe'd already sent off a lot of the

(28:59):
people prior to their arrival. Butagain, I don't understand why you abandoned
an entire place like that, andthat place was huge and well situated and
had a lot of fuel to basicallyjust killed five people. It does sound
dumb when you think about it,Like that it doesn't seem like the best

(29:22):
use of the building, or ofthe explosives or any exactly. And now
again we haven't seen it explode yet, so maybe he wasn't looking for total
annihilate annihilation. No, we justsaw it like it was two entrances.
Wasn't just two explosions we saw.Well, I assume that there were more

(29:42):
because they streamed in from every entrance. So I think they blew the doors
on all the all the stadium doors. But again, you know, it's
you know, kind of it's alittle like you know, lighting a match
with a blowtort or with a flamethrowerkind of reaction. Yeah, but they

(30:10):
maybe they want to be abandon placeanyway. But I mean it had power,
electricity, you know, decent house, you know, decent quarters to
live in at least from what wesaw, plenty of space, had their
entertainment. Um. So yeah,I don't know, it's just because I'm
pretty sure that he could kill fivepeople easily. Oh, definitely, definitely.

(30:34):
If they were coming in with anarmy, then that would be one
thing. You know, if theywere coming in with a horde of people,
you know, they're one hundred ormore people or whatever. Okay,
fine, you know, making ayou know, strategic retreat. Fine,
but five people, which is whyI think the plan will come out.

(30:56):
Right, whoever's idea that was,it's going to come out if it worked
or didn't what they were trying toachieve. I think next episode maybe will
learn some more because that does seemlike a huge throwaway to not have any
kind of you know, reasoning behindit, like m that seems dumb.
I think they're trying to give ussomething. Maybe the woman that we meet

(31:17):
at the end will ask him aboutthe plan or something I don't know,
well in something, And they havecommunication obviously because he's talking to her on
Milwaukee, um and look, andhe really is trying to take over the
entire island because the group that MaggieNiganvald fell into had said that he has

(31:41):
been collecting everyone either join him oryou die, um and and so he
really is trying to to retake thecity. And he's not even particularly upset
about the dead because you know,people are right. He's fine with it.

(32:02):
He's fine with it. He doesn'twant to use them all up so
quickly, I think, So,you know, he's not particularly concerned about
the dead. No, mm,I don't know. And you know,
I think overall these episodes seem reallysimplistic to me as far as the story,

(32:24):
Like, yeah, see, wesaw several different things happening in this
episode, but it's not like it. Maybe it just has to do with
a smaller cast. I don't know, but it seems like there's not a
lot of like digging to do,like in motivations and things like that,

(32:45):
because what I mean part of itis is Maggie and Egan are clearly established
characters. M Okay, we knoweverything about the two of these these guys.
Okay, they have a mission,fine herschel is it? Um?
Now that Jenny is there, everyoneis in the same you know, as

(33:06):
far as the main characters that we'vestarted with in this season, um,
which is Jenny and Nigan and Maggie. There's no side quests yea there um
And there's no other group that we'reyou know, aside from that one episode
where we briefly did you know,the back and forth between Maggie and Nigan

(33:27):
and Jenny, But again, they'reall in the same place now, so
there's no side quests, there's noum there's no other group that we're really
concerned with, because the group thatthey fell in with are now following Maggie
and nigan Um and the the UmCroatian. I mean, he's just he's

(33:51):
there. So yeah, so you'reright. I agree with all the things
you're saying. That's exactly right.But I think that is not agreeing with
me or something. I feel likewhat I'm seeing is good, but just
something is missing, something like Ifeel no connection to Death City. They

(34:15):
could say, guess what our studio, you know, got ransacked in our
film for the last two are gone. We can't do we can't air them.
I'd be like, well, Iguess we won't find out what happened.
I mean, it's not like I'mjust not vested in Dead City and
we've only got what two more episodesto go. I just feel like it's
missing the it's factor that draws meto a show. I will say that

(34:42):
this is compared to particularly last seasonof like Fear the Walking Dead or the
Not this last season, but theseason before that. These are better written
episodes there. But again, wedon't have you know, we don't have

(35:02):
a large and I'm glad that wedon't have a really large cast of characters,
because again, it was getting alittle out of hand. There was
all these people on all these differentshows, and we lose track of people.
Well, it's not the big cast. Okay, So now that you
said it, maybe maybe it's thatI don't care about any of these characters.

(35:24):
Yeah. I mean again, Maggieis not. Since she has come
back, she has not been alikable character. Honestly, if if we
had just been introduced to to Maggiethis past season and had no prior connection
with her, um, I don'tthink we'd like her at all. Honestly.

(35:49):
She is bitter and she's broken,and even her own son is like,
God, just do for me.She's flat. That's her. That's
the character's problem. She's flat.Right. We know her deal and we
accept it, right, we're notcriticizing it. But she needs to show

(36:10):
more dimension. Her character is morethan just angry, more than just a
scared mom. And I think thatis part of what's missing with Maggie's character,
is that there's nothing else. Yeah, because they haven't because really they
you know, she left the showwhen you know after you know she basically

(36:32):
killed Rick or thought she killed rickUm because that whole blowing up the bridge
and that whole thing was was Maggie. Her hurt, her anger, her
need for vengeance is what caused thatbridge to collapse and in rick to be
washed away, and the collapse ofthe community, all those communities, you

(36:57):
know, working together for a while. It was her. She was the
main antagonist and the reason why youknow, there was the fight between you
know, the fight between Darryl andRake and and everything else. It was
her. She was a protagonist andshe's never let it go. Yeah,
And so she left shortly thereafter,you know, with herschel and she's been

(37:22):
gone. And again, I alsoknow this was you know, contract disputes
and stuff on the real side ofthings. But when they brought her character
back, she had not grown.You know what, I'm gonna say this,
and I know it's gonna be avery the fans of Nigan will Um

(37:45):
probably hate me for this, butI halfway feel like I might have enjoyed
this a little more had let's say, you know, again, it's been
sixteen years or whatever however long it'sbeen, so like, let's just throw
out there for ships and get goals, Like let's say that Maggie met someone,
fell in love and got remarried andher and her spouse are looking for

(38:07):
her shoal, Yeah, because thenwe would see different sides of Maggie even
just that, you know what Imean. So but with her parent with
Nigan, all we see as angerand fairly, I think we can't expect
a whole lot more out of them. They're not going to turn around and

(38:28):
be best friends after right, ButI think the big thing is is again,
Maggie has not changed in all thistime. She is still the angry,
bitter, resentful, brittle person shewas when she left the show,
you know, um, back whenherschell was a baby. Yeah, Nigan

(38:54):
has actually as a character has changedand grown and you know, added to
his repertoire. He's a much moredeveloped character at this point. But the
problem is is like you don't likeNigan. I like him as a bad
guy. And so it's there's thisand there's probably some frustration on your side,

(39:17):
my side, and everything else,because at this point in Maggie's story,
she could still be sad okay overwhat she's lost, but she should
have moved on. Everyone has lostsomeone and people have lost people, you
know, loved ones in horrific waysin this entire universe, and they have

(39:40):
not held it close and refused tolet it go, you know, which
is all the reason why if theywould show her moving on in a relationship,
they could on paper force that characterto evolve, well even if you
know, the thing of it isis they don't even have to put her
in a relationship. They could justhave her move on where he's a sad

(40:02):
memory, but not not her.Glenn dying is her only more in keeping
Herschel alive, is her only motivatingforce. It's what makes her do everything
that she does, isolating Hilltop walkingor first walking away from Hilltop, then
coming back and then you know,isolating them again. You know, it's

(40:28):
every with every power problem, withevery issue that we have, it all
comes back to Maggie is a bitterand broken woman and refuses to be anything
else, or the writers are refusingto let her be anything else, and
it's you know, yeah, yeah, we get it. Glenn died,
but a lot of people have diedin horrible ways on this show, I

(40:51):
know. But I think the onething that is keeping me from completely you
know, taking beating up Maggie's characteron this stance is the fact that she
has to actually work with her husband'skiller. Right. Yeah, So even
if you just that's also a choicethat she made. She could have gone
and done this on with anybody else, right, But she could have gone,

(41:14):
She could have gone and gotten Carol. She could have. But she
knew that Nigan knew him, hewas in his bunch, he knows how
to deal with him, he knowswhere his weak spots are. But she
could have found someone else that wasat the sanctuary, you know, that
could have given her some insights.And honestly, I really don't think she

(41:35):
really needed that kind of for thisparticular mission. I really don't think that
kind of insight was really that importantunless she was planning and just offering him
up on a silver platter to exchangefor her son. Yeah, I don't
know. Maybe that was her plan. You know, I'm gonna get you
here and I'm gonna trade you.Yeah, and if that was it,

(41:58):
But again, she can be better, but she has put herself in this
position. Yeah, And she canbe mad at Neigan all she wants to
be, but he did not chooseto be there. She tracked him down
he did, all right, ButI'm a firm believer that two things can
be true. You can need thisguy for your to meet your ends and

(42:22):
still hate his guts. Yeah,and I do think that. I do
think it's a failing of the writers. Like the writers can they can maneuver
around this if they wanted to.They can give Maggie more if they wanted
to. You know, at theat the end of The Walking Dead,
when Maggie and Negan had their talkand she's like, I can let this

(42:45):
go, but I cannot forgive you. All right, I'm cool with that.
That is a good mature response.Yes, all right, I'm acknowledging
that you are not the same sadistics ob that killed my husband. I
don't like you, I don't wantto be around you, but I can
accept your existence. But in thisshow, she has backslid. She went

(43:10):
and she pursued him to find himand brought him into this. And here's
the thing. She is asking himto put his life on the line to
save her son. Well, here'sthe thing. By her saying she's letting
it go for in her by herown definition, means she's not going to
keep trying to kill him. That'sall that means. I'm gonna let it

(43:31):
go. I'm not gonna try tokill you anymore. Well, yeah,
and I get that, But likeI said, this where Maggie is right
now, and I don't expect herto be best buds with him, all
right, but she is holding somuch anger in at this point, and

(43:53):
it's just bubbling around the edges ofher m for a situation she's put herself
in. And again, we stilldon't know why the Croatian took herschel.
He says these were a hostage butthat really still yeah? Yeah, well

(44:15):
is it the grain like we said, I mean, you kind of mentioned
the Grain Tower from the other episode, So is it for that or is
like you said you mentioned the otherepisode, is Maggie lying about what really
is going on? Yeah? Becausethe thing of it is, if you're
being taken as a hostage, Um, generally that means that you're pretty much

(44:38):
safe, at least for the timebeing. Because if they've taken you to
get compliance, that means that youhave to prove that they're still alive.
Yeah. Um, so a deadherschel is worthless as a hostage. True,
And so there again there there.There's got to be something else going

(45:00):
on here. There has to be, because everything is not adding up,
and even her anger at Niagan andeverything else. Again, I'm kind of
wondering if maybe the Croatian came lookingfor him and found Maggie instead and you

(45:21):
know, just decided to play withher. I don't know. I think
finding out who this woman is goingto be a game changer as far as
the plot and like ting to fillin some of the holes. I think,
yeah, but it it But you'reright, part of the what the
show is missing is Maggie is avery two dimensional, flat character right now.

(45:46):
She has no nuance to her.Um, she has no depth.
She's just a walking ball of rageand that's all she is. That's that
gets old old. You need moreexactly. Um. You know, there
are these small moments, like whatshe was talking about burying the harmonica was

(46:07):
was kind of cute, But forthe most part, again, I mean,
she's she's angry, she's mistrustful,she's and that's her default personality period.
Anyway. It's not just Nigan doingthis to her. She is like
this with everyone all the time now, and I think that's part of the
reason why we can't really warm upto her character because for a while there

(46:32):
they were after you know, upto Glenn's death, and even after Glenn's
death, you know, they gaveher a lot more nuance and they've taken
all that from her and they've justleft her with this shove a character.
Um, Because I mean, ifyou go back, you guys and listen
to some of the older episodes,I defend Maggie when everybody is like,

(46:58):
wow, Wow, Maggie Fish,Who does she get over it? Why
she move on? I'm like,fought for her stance right right now,
It's like I still feel that way, but I feel like you can do
more right. You know, ayear after it happened, absolutely she had
every right to feel, you know, that loss, that pain. It
was a year, you know,But now we're talking sixteen years and to

(47:22):
the point where her own son isresentful of her and and the fact that
she has drugged him from unsafe placeto unsafe place his entire life, because
she is trying to run from actuallycoming to terms with Glenn's death. And

(47:45):
it's not just that, you know, I mean, because it's not.
It's because she's still like this evenwhen Nigan isn't around. You know,
she is still this distrustful. Imean when she went back and asked for
the Alexandria's help, she was stillangry and mistrustful of them. So like,
let me give you a different characterfor perspective. And I think I

(48:07):
might have mentioned her before, butthink about Michellan's character. Yeah, she
thought her husband was dead, yeah, for a while, and she didn't
like and yes it wasn't someone thatshe knew per se that just straight up
murdered him, like you know,yes, the circumstances were different, but
dead is dead, and she managedto be warm and carrying towards her children,

(48:32):
right. You know what, Imay need to forgive the person that
caused the death. Yeah, andthat was Maggie. Yes, so we
know that you can. And likeI said, I give Maggie Moore,
you know, all the props andbeing as mad as she wants to be.
But my goodness, the writers needto give her something else. She

(48:54):
needs more like she used to have, right, she used to have more
nuanced you know, yeah, andnow she doesn't. And maybe that's part
of I think that's probably a goodpart of the problem because it's not like,
we have a lot of cast toblame it on, right, I
mean, and you know her hercharacter is just like I said, she's
just a walking ball of rage.That that's it. That's all there is

(49:15):
to Maggie at this point. Yeah, you're not even really seeing tender moments
between like her and herschel or youknow, even the story she tells about
burying the harmonica. You know,what she's talked about is her frustration that
herschel wasn't going to sleep. Yes, you know, her frustration with them

(49:37):
being out in the wild and notbeing able to sleep in this situation in
YadA YadA. You know, itwasn't This wasn't a Nigan showed more compassion
for the dead girl he didn't knowwho had been tortured to death the Maggie
showed towards her son when talking abouthim as a baby. Yes, and

(50:00):
that and I honestly think that's it. That's probably what you're feeling and I'm
feeling, and Karina and everyone else, Um, it's that that lack of
her having anything she has. Imean, she's just a hollowed out core
of a character who's just sustained onun rage and regret, and you know

(50:22):
what else? I feel like,I feel like and I could be wrong.
I know there is someone in thisWatcher universe that watches this show who
has seen it and probably counted thewords per character. I feel like Maggie
says a lot less than Nigan does. She's a lot less lines, a

(50:43):
lot less words. She's just sittingaround looking disgruntled. You know. Yeah,
well, even when he tries toengage with her, she just kind
of stares at him. When otherpeople try to engage with her, she
kind of just stares at him.Yeah, So yeah, I mean they're
really they're not. You know,when she talks about getting her son back,

(51:05):
there is no you're not seeing love, you're seeing desperation. You're not
seeing you know that. She hasn'tsaid a a single tender thing to actually
even engage other people to feel herher pain. I think they're trying to

(51:30):
show us and not tell us.But the reason it fails is because what
they're showing us isn't that heartfelt,right, so it doesn't follow through.
So I don't know, I didn'tfeel like they're doing that though they want
to show in that tale, butit's just failing well, because at this
point, what we've what they've reallydone, is they've given Nigan the character

(51:53):
development that they should have given toMaggie. You know, Nigan has done
terrible things. He is on ahis little redemption path. Um. It's
not that he hasn't still done terriblethings. He has, but because he
talks and you know, he's sharingthese he's sharing small intimate moments with Maggie,

(52:17):
with with other characters, and he'smaking those connections that she is just
completely keeping herself apart from she's standing. I mean, she's in a room
full of people and she's standing alone. A good example would be at the
table when they were doing that thatreminiscent chant thing. Even Nigan participated.

(52:43):
You know, he kind of lookedaround and looked a little out at the
whole thing, but he's like,all right, oh, I'll play along.
Yeah, And she kind of reachedfor that picture from um from herschel
but that was it. She stillkept herself apart from everyone else. And

(53:04):
and I think that's you know,We've had one time when when she was
talking to Nigan and she was sayingthat, you know, she hasn't been
close to a lot of people,but every one of them fit in that
little container. And that is aboutthe only time, and in all of
these episodes that we've had this momentof human compassion from her, and yet

(53:27):
we've had dozens from Nigan. Yeah, and short changed Maggie. I feel
like maybe this show was supposed tobe the Nigan show and it couldn't.
I guess they thought this would bethe best pairing. I don't know,
but it kind of feels like thata little bit, because like we,

(53:50):
like you said, you pointed out, he's getting all the character development,
he's getting everything, and Maggie's justchilling looking mean, yeah, oh she's
She's not chilling. She's over theresimmering, simmering, because that's it.
I mean, you know, evenwhen they melt that group of people like
oh we were we're on our wayto Canada, and he's just looking at

(54:13):
her. Really, you know,what you want to do is try to
elicit some you know, care andconcern from these people by saying my son
was kidnapped and I'm trying to goafter him. When Maggie sees Jenny and
she gets her, and you know, yes, they're fighting for a little
while, but there's a couple ofseconds she could ask her some question,
what are you doing here? Blahblah blah. She says nothing. She

(54:37):
just keeps eyeballing the girl like it'sso weird. It's weird. I mean
she does go back for so kudosfor that, she does do that,
but she's not speaking to her.Yeah you know, so yeah. I
mean again, Maggie has had they'vehad the opportunity to have Maggie be less

(54:59):
than hostile, and they're not givingher those moments, and it's making her,
you know, it makes her charactervery unlikable. And in a situation
like this, Maggie should be thesympathetic one. She's the mother, she's
the one that you know, she'slost her husband, she's lost her son.

(55:21):
You know, she's trying to gethim back. She should be the
sympathetic character, and instead it Nanis becoming the sympathetic character, although he's
still he is. I mean,the fans in general love Nigan, they
do. They love that character todeath, but I still see major flaws
with him, even though they aretrying their best to send him on this

(55:45):
you know, Redemption Parade. Youknow, they're doing their best, but
in doing that. I'm also findingseveral flaws like red flags as well.
Oh, I mean, like Isaid, I mean, Nigan is no
different now than he was back atthe start of the pandemic because Nigan puts

(56:08):
on a facade that is useful tohim