July 20, 2025 • 66 mins
We are all human, and as such, are imperfect. Step 10 challenges us to recognize when we are imperfect, and to make amends when necessary. Nancy reflects on a recent experience that challenged her long-standing beliefs and provided a profound learning moment. She begins by recounting an incident that occurred while her son was visiting...
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Spencer (00:01):
Step 10 asks us to promptly admit it when we are wrong.
How do we make this workin our life, in practice?
Welcome to episode 436of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought toyou by Pete, Scott and Claire.
They used the donationbutton on our website.
Thank you, Pete, Scott, and Clairefor your generous contributions.
(00:22):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members ofalcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with theseemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our ownattitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Nancy L (00:44):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we willshare our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
Spencer (01:07):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today.
Joining me today is Nancy.
Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Nancy.
And you reminded me that we recordedepisode 377, whether the alcoholic is drinking or not, back in early 2022.
So welcome back.
Nancy L (01:24):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Spencer (01:27):
We are going to open with a reading you have from Hope for Today.
Nancy L (01:32):
Yep, I do.
On page 1 73, June 21st.
Step 10 continued to take personalinventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, reminds me that I have the right to be human.
My sponsor tells me that God made me aperfect human being, not a perfect God.
(01:56):
I certainly do engage regularlyin a wide variety of human behaviors, making mistakes, harming others, and hurting myself.
No matter how long I am in recovery,I'll never progress beyond being human.
However, according to my humancondition, it doesn't mean I have to live with the uncomfortable feelings, such as guilt and shame, which often go along with making human mistakes.
(02:26):
Step 10 invites me to regularlykeep a finger on my spiritual pulse so I can cooperate with God in my spiritual growth and healing.
It says that if I do or say somethingwrong, I can stop, turn around, and do something different now.
Step 10 invites me to growup, be responsible, and make amends all for my own benefits.
(02:53):
I take Step 10 because I wantto be the best me I can be.
Thought for today, when I continueto take personal inventory and amend my wrongs, I can live my life peacefully with God's other children.
This step continues the process,which began with step four, being aware of the things we do and taking corrective measures without delay.
Spencer (03:20):
Thank you.
You sent me an email with a storyabout acting out on step 10.
Maybe we'll start with that.
Nancy L (03:29):
I had written you and said that it's amazing that after being in this program for as many years as I have, which is probably close to 30 years, I continue to come up short at times.
And, as it says in this readingtoday, that I have the right to be human, which hit me tremendously.
(03:53):
That God made me a humanbeing not a perfect God.
And I have to keepreminding myself of that.
No matter how many years, no matterhow much work, no matter how many meetings I go to, I have to be reminded daily that I am, not perfect.
(04:14):
I had a situation where my son, whowas my qualifier, my loved one, was visiting for a couple of days with my husband and I. He was home with my husband, and I was driving the car home.
I was very close to home.
I was coming over the causeway.
My dog was in the front seatand got startled by something and jumped into my lap.
(04:38):
As a result, I swerved.
And the car went into the side of thecauseway not doing any damage to the car, but the tire was absolutely demolished.
I came home, I walked in the houseand I said to my son, oh my God, I can't believe what just happened.
(05:01):
I was driving over the causeway andout of the blue, the tire exploded and I lost control of the car.
It went into the side and I havea horrible flat tire and I'm gonna have to have the car towed.
He came out and he looked at thetire and he said, yeah, you did a great job to the tire, Mom.
Went into my husband and toldhim the exact same story.
(05:25):
Called the tow truck company.
The tow truck company had to come take thecar away and bring it to the tire place.
It was an expensive situation with thecost of the tow truck and the new tire.
And my husband kept saying to me,tell me again how this happened.
Tell me again how this happened.
And I kept insisting that this washow it happened, and that out of the blue, this tire just popped and blew up and caused this flat tire.
(05:57):
The next day when we went topick up the car, he said to the woman at the, tire company, have you ever heard of this before?
And she said, I can'timagine how it happened.
I have never heard this.
It's hard for me to believethat this is how it happened.
So that night.
We're out to dinner, my husband and myson and I, and he confronted me again.
(06:23):
And I got extremely upset.
I was backed up against a wall,Spencer, like you can't believe.
And I came out fightingand I got extremely mad.
I said, you obviously don't believe me.
You think I'm lying.
You didn't even care whetherI was all right or not.
(06:44):
And I went bananas, handled myselfhorribly and went slamming into the bedroom, slammed the door.
About 15 minutes later, hecame in and he looked at me and he said, Nancy, you're lying.
Are you lying?
And I said, yes.
(07:05):
And he said, I knew it.
It just didn't sound right.
I said to him, I am so sorry.
I need to make an amends to you.
I treated this so wrong.
It was so inappropriate.
I was not honest with you.
I was not truthful.
(07:26):
I turned it all on you andSteven and it was 100% my fault.
And he said, why did you do it?
I said, I did it because I didn'twant you to think less of me.
I didn't want you to think that becausethe dog was in the car in the front seat, which you don't like anyway, had jumped on me, I caused this to happen.
(07:51):
I was so concerned how itmade you feel about me.
It brought me up so short.
Because I thought to myself, A,haven't you come far enough that you don't do this, that, that you don't even come close to doing this?
And B, are you not confident enough?
(08:15):
Do you not have enough self worth andconfidence in yourself that you can't say to your husband of all these years?
You know what?
The dog jumped in my lap.
I didn't know what to do.
The car went into the side.
I have a flat tire, not a big deal.
It was very, very upsetting to methat I handled it in that way and he couldn't have cared less about the tire.
(08:42):
What he cared about is that I insistedthat this was how it happened and that I accused him of not believing me.
The good news, the only good news thatcame out of that is that I knew how to make amends, that I didn't continue it, that I had put up with this farce long enough that I said, I owe you an amends.
(09:08):
I owe Steven an amends, and I amextremely sorry for my behavior.
Spencer (09:13):
How did you feel during that day or so when you were still living in the lie.
It was the lie that you're makingamends for eventually, right?
Not the car accident.
Nancy L (09:25):
No, no.
No, as he said, you know,big deal, it's a tire.
You didn't destroy the car.
You're fine.
It's a tire, you know, youcould have easily have told me.
And I said to him, it goesback to feeling less than.
And that is a tremendouscharacter defect of mine.
(09:48):
I run into these situations from time totime where I'm just not able to own up, and realize again, that I'm not perfect and that these things are going to happen.
And he handled it so well in thesense of saying to me, you do 75% for me, and I do probably 25% for you.
(10:13):
You couldn't do anything bad in my eyes.
Which made me feel even worse.
But, no, I didn't feel good about whatI was doing and I wondered for that day, how long I was going to be able to continue this charade and not come clean.
But the longer that I did do that, thelonger I felt backed up against that wall, especially with my son there.
(10:38):
Who is a recovering alcoholic withmental health issues, who has lied more times than you can shake a stick out over the years that he was dealing with substance abuse.
So if anybody would understand, he would.
And when I made the amends to himthe next morning, he said to me, Mom, kind of welcome to my world.
(11:03):
Do you know how many times Ilied to you in my lifetime?
I mean, this is not something that isshockingly new to me, and I'm sorry that you felt that you had to do that.
Spencer (11:16):
One of the things that I know how I would react, having lied about something and then feeling, as you say, backed up against the wall.
I would react with angeras I think you did.
Nancy L (11:31):
Very much so.
Spencer (11:33):
And that speaks to what happens to us when we fall off the program.
Nancy L (11:40):
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (11:41):
After you made your amends to your husband and to your son, what was the change in how you felt?
Nancy L (11:49):
I think like so many times you hear from other people and read in our literature, that was very freeing.
I felt obviously a lot better about it.
I was filled with guilt and shame.
But that was gone and I was so veryappreciative of the fact that my husband and my son didn't come back at me again, which I don't think that they would, but maybe somebody else would.
Spencer (12:19):
Yeah.
Nancy L (12:19):
And bring it all up again.
And why did you do it?
Why did you do it?
I just don't understand why you didit instead saying, okay, it's over.
It's done.
I appreciate what you hadto say and let's move on.
Which was, a relief.
Very much so for me.
I did come back and again, tellthem how much I appreciated that and how much I loved them.
(12:46):
I wanted them to know that.
And that I would certainlystrive not to do that, in any way, shape or form very often.
But every once in a while, aswe all say, this comes out.
The good news is, is that I was ableto recognize it and I was able to admit it, and I was able to say, I am wrong.
(13:10):
At another time in my life beforeprogram, I would've continued this and I would have fought and fought.
To make them understand or to try tomake them understand that they were wrong and that I was right, and how dare they question what I was telling them.
So, I have learned a great deal from that.
(13:34):
But as I said to you in my voicemailto you, it brings me up short when I do something like this after all the years that I have been in program.
Spencer (13:48):
Yeah.
I think the reading that you brought isperfect for that because we're human.
We're not perfect.
Maybe we've been made a perfecthuman being, but part of being human is making mistakes.
Nancy L (14:03):
Yeah.
Spencer (14:04):
I was thinking about times when I had a delay in making amends, or didn't realize that I needed to.
It was a while ago.
I was with a bunch of Al-Anon friends.
We were having some kind of aafternoon gathering picnic thing.
One of the people there waslike, I have to go home because something to do with her kid.
(14:26):
I don't remember the details now.
And I was kind of teasingher about that, saying.
I don't remember exactly what I wassaying, but later, I think later that same day, another friend texted me and said, that felt really inappropriate.
What was up there that didn'tseem like the Spencer that I know.
(14:48):
At that point I said, thankyou for bringing that up.
I'm gonna have to think about this.
I'm going to think aboutwhat happened and why.
This actually was one of the firstexperiences where I really deliberately and explicitly worked the earlier steps on this particular problem.
I spent quite some time thinking aboutwhat was my motivation, what was I trying to do, what feelings was I working from, and one of those that still pops up now and then it still does, is I want people to like me, right?
Nancy L (15:26):
Exactly.
Spencer (15:27):
One of the ways that that comes out for me is this sort of teasing behavior.
Hey, we're really good friends.
So I can say this thing to you thatwould maybe be offensive if I was just saying it to a random person, but since we're such good friends, I can do that.
We were not that good friends.
(15:49):
Okay?
This was an illusion inmy head or something.
I had to think about that, do the whys.
What was I feeling?
What was I trying to accomplish?
What outcome was I looking for?
And after I spent some timedoing inventory on that incident, I wrote an apology.
(16:11):
Trying very hard to not JADE,justify, argue, defend, explain.
I just apologized for the way that Ihad interacted with her that afternoon.
I think I ran it by the friend whobrought it up to me in the first place.
'cause why not get a secondset of eyes on there.
Nancy L (16:33):
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (16:34):
And I sent it and I did not get any response.
And when I saw the person nextat a meeting, we were neutral.
And I felt like I did what I could.
The important part of it for me was,from the point of view of working the principles of the program.
(16:55):
When it was brought to my attentionthat this was not appropriate behavior.
I did take the time to considerwhat was going on, and what form of amends might be appropriate.
And then to act that.
Nancy L (17:11):
Yeah, you said the word motive.
I think that comes into play so many timeswhen we're in a situation like this.
A what is your motive?
What was your motive there?
And B, what were your expectations?
You apologized in a textor whatever to this person.
They didn't respond.
Was your expectation that they were goingto write you back and say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for, getting back to me.
(17:40):
No problem.
I'm so glad you, reached out.
And as a result, not hearingfrom them, were you disappointed.
Spencer (17:49):
I think that I consciously did not set an expectation of any kind of response.
I knew that I just neededto do what I could to try to clean up my side of the street.
And what they did withthat was theirs, not mine.
So yes, I was a little bit nervousat the next meeting when that person was there and I didn't get anything back then, but it felt like we're okay with each other, and we didn't need to go any further on it.
(18:22):
One of the things thatI find is very helpful.
When I identify a step 10 incident, let'scall it that, when I make a mistake when I'm wrong, is to do a little bit of inventory to really understand what is acting in me that caused that to happen.
Nancy L (18:43):
exactly.
Spencer (18:44):
Which of my character defects was acting up that moment.
Nancy L (18:48):
yeah.
I didn't wanna look foolish.
I didn't want to admit that thedog was on my lap in the front seat, which is probably not the safest thing in the world.
As you said, it's 100% people pleasing.
I didn't want to look any less than who Iwas and who I wanted them to think I was.
(19:12):
That's where I get myself in trouble.
I try so hard to be somebodythat I might not necessarily be as comfortable being, because I think that's what they would like.
Spencer (19:24):
Yes, yes.
Oh my God, yes.
I wrote some thought questions here.
I don't know if these are helpful or not.
A time when doing yourstep ten amends was easy.
We already talked about one whenit was hard and you didn't admit it right away and didn't immediately, as it says in this step, promptly, it says promptly, doesn't it?
Nancy L (19:45):
Right.
Right.
Spencer (19:47):
And, how that felt.
Gratefully, it worked out for you.
In my case, I was pretty prompt, onceI was informed of the thing that I needed to potentially make amends for.
I didn't recognize it at the time, and I'mnot sure that I would have recognized it without this friend pointing it out to me.
Nancy L (20:10):
Interesting.
Spencer (20:11):
you know, because I thought, I was just being friendly,
Nancy L (20:16):
Yep.
But I, I think when yousay when is it easy?
It's never easy.
I'm not sure easy iseven the correct word.
I find that when I am in a meeting,when I am surrounded by my Al-Anon friends, the people in the program, the people who work the program, my son who
(20:37):
works, his program, where I know thatwhen I make an amends, I'm not being judged, I'm not being criticized, I'm not being thought any differently of.
It is easier, if we can use that word.
It's more comfortable to makean amends to people who get it.
(20:59):
Who have been in the same situation, whoare in the same situation, who are sitting there and know me backwards and forwards.
And I can sit in a meeting and look at thepeople around that table and say, what I need to say and feel safe, totally safe.
Spencer (21:18):
yes.
Nancy L (21:19):
I didn't feel safe.
It was my defect, but I didn't feel safebeing honest with my husband and my son.
Because it was more important to me atthat moment that they not think I did something wrong and that it was the tire that blew up and I had no control over it.
Spencer (21:40):
right.
So I am still in the middleof a thing where I'm pretty sure I need to make amends.
I'm not sure.
I think I probably do, but I haven't.
About a week ago I was talking witha neighbor about a local issue.
I was expressing my opinion ofthis local issue very strongly.
(22:04):
Sort of condemning people who wereon the other side of the issue.
Condemning is a very strong word, butthat's effectively what I was doing.
I was saying these people have thismotivation for being on the other side of the issue that I just feel is wrong.
I said, I think this is what theirmotive is and I don't like it.
(22:29):
And I said it probably a little morestrongly that I'm saying it right now.
This conversation was prompted by someyard signs that were across the street.
The next day, I'm walking aroundthe block and I noticed that he has that same sign in his front yard.
And I'm like, oh, geez, did Ieffectively condemn him with those words?
(22:52):
Did I impute a motivationto him that he doesn't have?
And how's he feeling about me?
' cause it's all about me.
Right?
And for several days, every timeI walked past their yard and saw the sign, I had this sort of guilt feeling about what I had said.
I've been thinking about what is anappropriate way to make amends for that.
(23:17):
Because I have my opinion,I expressed my opinion.
I, I'm not gonna go and say,well, I didn't really think that.
I think what I want to do is ask him,so tell me why you have this sign.
What are you feeling?
What are you thinking?
And try to just receive,like we do in a meeting.
Nancy L (23:38):
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (23:40):
To say I'd, I'd like to understand, because obviously I have some feelings about this, but I may be totally misunderstanding other people's motivation on this.
I feel like I should talk to him.
But it's the whole thing.
Like I don't want him to feel badlyof me, so I'm not talking to him, which could help, repair if there's any damage to the relationship.
(24:04):
It's one of those crazyemotional, somewhat fear-based people pleasing things.
Right.
Nancy L (24:09):
Right,
Spencer (24:10):
And it's not comfortable right now.
We've had a couple of neutralinteractions about his daughters watering our plants while we're out of town, and, those have gone just fine.
But I really need to, next time I see'em out on the sidewalk to say, look, I expressed myself pretty strongly about these signs, but I'd really like to understand your point of view on that.
Nancy L (24:34):
Yeah, I think the last time that I was on with you, we talked about the isms of the disease, and I find over and over and over again that when I'm in any kind of a conversation, especially with my son, and I keep it in the "I".
(24:54):
We learn this all the time in the program.
Every time I would say, you need tounderstand this, or you did this, or, you didn't act correctly in this, it drove a wall between the two of us that was very hard to break down.
Keeping it in the "I".
(25:16):
You own your feelings.
Those are your feelings and youown them, and nobody can tell you, you can't feel the way you feel.
So I start so many conversationswith, it's important for you to know how I feel about this.
You may not agree, you may not, feelthe same way that I do, but it's important that I express how I feel.
(25:45):
And I think that that takes the onusoff of them, and I think it frees them to say, wow, they're willing to listen.
They're willing to hearwhat I have to say.
Instead of coming at them.
We're kind of, as you said, meeting themhalfway and saying, help me understand why you're doing what you're doing, or you feel the way you feel because it's important that you know how I feel.
Spencer (26:16):
And that is not, I think, human nature.
For many of us at least, it's notmost people's first choice, right?
Nancy L (26:26):
No, no.
But it's so much healthierand it's less toxic.
And arguments or confrontations,or whatever you wanna call them, can become extremely toxic.
And before you know it, what youoriginally were disagreeing about has escalated to such an entirely different level that you forgot what you even started talking about.
(26:51):
If I'm in a conversation withsomebody, I will say, this is my thoughts, this is my opinion.
This absolutely doesn't have to beyour opinion, but it's important that, I feel that blah, blah, blah.
Then you just see this look onpeople's faces that's like, okay, she's willing to listen to me.
(27:16):
Even if I don't agree with her,she's willing to listen to me because she's not judging me and criticizing me and saying, no, no, no, your opinion isn't the same as mine.
Therefore you're wrong.
This man has a reasonfor whatever he's doing.
And I think as human beings, we owethem the courtesy of hearing them out.
(27:41):
And he may have something to say toyou that you never thought of before, and you would, automatically go, well, I never thought of it that way.
Spencer (27:52):
It's entirely possible.
I think getting back to the step 10 partof it, right now, I have this low level of unease, sort of every time I think about him, like that is hurting me a whole lot more than it's hurting him.
I'm pretty sure.
Nancy L (28:10):
Absolutely.
You are not feeling any more comfortableor that you've come out ahead on this,
Spencer (28:16):
Nope, which is what Step 10 is all about.
It's not only keeping.
As we like to say, our side of the streetclean, but it's also about keeping our emotional set clean in a sense.
That's the beauty andthe power of that step.
Nancy L (28:35):
Spencer, you've been in this program a long time and isn't it interesting that you're struggling with this too?
Spencer (28:44):
I am still human.
I'm still human.
I think it was in the last episode,Pat said, practice makes progress
Nancy L (28:54):
absolutely, I wrote that down.
Spencer (28:56):
and the more I can keep practicing this, the less often I need to do it, you know?
Nancy L (29:05):
yep,
Spencer (29:06):
Or I do it right away.
Nancy L (29:08):
Yes.
I'm a big journaler and I journal a lot,and I have been journaling about this.
It helps me to get it out of myhead and put it down on paper and then be able to go back and look at what I wrote and remember how I felt then and how I feel now.
(29:32):
For me, and again, it's not foreverybody, but for me, I probably have 27, 28 journals that I've written since I started on this journey.
I don't throw them away and I keep thembecause it's important for me to go back and look at where I've been and hope that where I've been is not where I am now.
Spencer (29:55):
I've been hearing a number of people talking about the power of writing and writing by hand.
When I've been able to do that,definitely have experienced that.
Here's a quote from a woman, NaomiShihab Nye, who is, interviewed in On Being, and she said, rarely do you ever hear anyone say, they write things down and feel worse.
Nancy L (30:25):
I 100% agree.
Spencer (30:27):
The thing that I've noticed about writing, and I, I really do think somehow writing by hand is different than typing it into a computer or
Nancy L (30:37):
Yes.
Yes.
Spencer (30:40):
is the train of thought that's being expressed in the writing sometimes goes places that I didn't expect it to.
Nancy L (30:46):
And what does that mean?
Spencer (30:47):
What does that mean?
I see that as my higherpower trying to talk to me.
Nancy L (30:53):
I see.
Spencer (30:55):
The times when I've done the steps, been generally working with paths to recovery and so there's all those questions.
I've always bought a new blankjournal, something with a nice cover and good paper, and write out my answers to those questions in long hand because yes, I did learn how to write script 'cause I'm that old,
Nancy L (31:21):
Mm-hmm.
Me too.
Spencer (31:23):
I feel like there's, there is, there's a real power in doing that.
Nancy L (31:28):
Well, as I said, it makes it real.
You know what I mean?
It's not make believe, you'renot going back and reading it and going, oh, I didn't make that up.
It really happened.
Spencer (31:40):
It makes it real in another sense that, for me, as long as something is only in my head, it has a certain unreality to it.
Nancy L (31:49):
Yes.
Spencer (31:51):
and if I get it out of my head by telling it to another person, by writing it down.
I don't have a good sort of conversationalrelationship with my higher power.
So, writing it down is a way that I canfeel that I am telling it to maybe myself, maybe my higher power, and making it real and then, I can do something with it.
Nancy L (32:18):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (32:19):
I found this when I was working the inventory step, in particular, it's really easy to just sort of something in my head and it goes away and it's gone.
But if I write it down, thenI have to acknowledge it.
Nancy L (32:33):
Exactly, that's the word.
Acknowledge it.
Yep.
I've written letters to my higher power.
I've written letters to my anxiety.
A couple of times.
Literally, We're gonnaget through this together.
We're gonna be friends.
We're not enemies.
Whatever it took, I have written letters.
I've been advised by my sponsor to do thatseveral times, and that is very freeing.
(32:59):
Boy, that works very well for me.
And I'm able to go back andread those over and over again.
I feel a true sense that I'm being heard.
Whether it's by my inner self, whetherit's by my higher power, I don't know.
But it makes it real.
(33:19):
It's not in my head.
It makes it real and it needs to besaid, and it's important enough that it needs to be said and put down on paper.
Spencer (33:29):
Anything you wanna close with here, put a bow on it as a friend of mine would say.
Nancy L (33:35):
As I said to you before, I think these 9, 10, 11 steps, even 12, really, all play into each other so well, and they flow so well.
I feel that if we really, really workthese steps, especially, the nine and 10 and making amends, and really taking our inventory similar to a step four, that we are able to have so much more of a spiritual awakening.
(34:04):
And that is for me, so terribly, terriblyimportant, to have that spiritual awakening, to know that I am not alone, to know that my higher power is walking
with me every single day, every stepof the way, and doesn't get mad at me and doesn't judge me, and doesn't say, oh my God, Nancy, you were so wrong.
(34:28):
But gently nudges me into doingwhat is the right thing to do.
Spencer (34:34):
Wow.
Thank you for that.
You brought some music.
Nancy L (34:39):
Yep.
The first song I picked was,A Better Man by Taylor Swift.
Some of the words really spoke to me.
It says, I know I'm probably betteroff on my own, than loving a man who didn't know what he had when he had it.
And I see the permanentdamage you do to me.
(35:00):
Never again.
I just wish I couldforget when it was magic.
But your jealousy, oh, I can hear it now.
Talking down to me like I'd alwaysbe around, push my love away, like it was some kind of loaded gun.
Oh, you never thought I'd run.
(35:22):
Which is really kind of ametaphor for recovery and finding peace, especially after turmoil.
Moving forward, and healing.
I felt that this song, those couple oflyrics and those phrases, spoke to that.
Spencer (35:48):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we been experiencingrecovery recently?
Well, there's a bunch of thingsgoing on in Al-Anon as a whole.
I don't know how much you've beenaware of this, but in 2024, the World Service Conference made a decision about policy for naming groups.
(36:13):
That group names should not includeidentifiers such as men or women or LGBT, people of color, parents, children, because they felt that would discourage people from attending a meeting.
(36:33):
And our third tradition says theonly requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.
They said, this is what we think.
We're gonna establish this policy.
The World Service Office took thatand ran a little further with it than the conference had intended, and said existing meetings are gonna need to change their names also.
(36:57):
I don't know how things have been inyour meetings, but in a couple of my meetings, people really did not like this.
Apparently those were not the only people,because at this year's World Service Conference in 2025, they apparently talked about this issue on all four days.
Nancy L (37:19):
Wow.
Spencer (37:20):
They came out with a statement that says, okay, we're gonna rescind this policy for now and we wanna hear from you.
Our delegate brought this documentback to the area assembly, gave it to all of the group representatives with the hope that groups would be able
(37:41):
to talk about this issue, probablyduring their business meeting, during their group conscience meeting.
Then give feedback back, to the delegatewho can bring it back to the World Service Conference next year, so that hopefully they can make a policy that is more in line with how the people in the groups are feeling about this.
Nancy L (38:03):
Wow.
Is the first I'm hearing about this.
Absolutely the first.
Spencer (38:08):
Yeah, if you're not involved in the activities of Al-Anon at the district, area and world service level, you might not have been aware of this, until you tried to start a meeting that you called it Women's Morning Serenity,
Nancy L (38:25):
I
Spencer (38:25):
and they would say, sorry, you can't use the word women in the name of your group.
Well now they're not gonnado that, at least for a year.
Nancy L (38:33):
Okay.
Spencer (38:34):
You might ask your group representative, like, have you heard about this yet?
Nancy L (38:38):
Yes, I will.
Absolutely.
'cause I'm there every week and wehave group conscience, and we have business meetings, and we have a group rep and nothing has ever come up.
Spencer (38:48):
Yeah.
Well, some people, either they don'tknow about it or they think it's fine.
Which, you know, that'swhat we need to figure out.
When we look at the structure of Al-Anon,the first concept of service says that the ultimate authority rests with the groups.
It's this sort of inverted pyramidstructure with the, the groups at the top, and it gets smaller and smaller until you get down to the World Service office at the bottom.
(39:15):
So that's something I'vebeen thinking about recently.
And they wrote up a really nicedocument, to ask people for feedback.
It's questions for discussion.
Tradition three.
The relatives of alcoholics whengathered together for mutual aid may call themselves an Al-Anon family group, provided that as a group, they have no other affiliation.
The only requirement for membershipis that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.
(39:39):
And then the question that they put withthat is, do identifiers such as men, women, parents, et cetera in group names.
Uphold this tradition.
Why or why not?
Wide open question.
But there's also tradition four.
Every group should be autonomousexcept in matters affecting another group or Al-Anon or AA as a whole.
(40:00):
And the question that they giveus is, how do identifiers in group names affect Al-Anon as a whole?
Or do they?
I got this because I was a group rep andapparently I'm still on the mailing list.
Nancy L (40:12):
I see.
I see.
Spencer (40:13):
But I had heard about the policy change from friends who were really unhappy with it.
Anyway, so that's onething that's been going on.
Al-Anon related , but I didn't tendto really talk that long about it.
The other day our meeting topic wassteps eight and nine, which is a meeting where we're kind of doing a book study on how Al-Anon works.
(40:34):
We'll read a section of the bookand then we'll share on that.
This time we went, through steps eightand nine in the chapter on the 12 steps.
I had just been talking about stepseight and nine and 10 in the podcast.
And so, I brought someof what I had learned.
Into my share in the meeting, you know?
And I thought, well, this is nice.
(40:55):
Often it goes the other way.
Something happens in a meeting,I bring it to the podcast.
Well, now something happened to thepodcast and I brought it to the meeting.
And finally, I have a service positionin one of my meetings, which is I'm one of the two people that has a key to the, building that we meet in to open it up for the meeting.
And I'm gonna be away for several weeks.
And so, really had to make sure to reachout and say, this is what's happening.
(41:20):
I'm gonna be gone.
I am hoping that the other person whohas a key is able to open the church on those days, or I could leave my key with somebody else in case he can't do it.
He almost immediately wrote backand said, I got you covered.
I did that well ahead to give peopletime to think about it and to be able to make arrangements if I needed to.
(41:41):
That's something I've learnedsomehow in program is like, you can't just let things happen sometimes,
Nancy L (41:48):
It's funny, a couple of weeks ago when this situation happened that I talked about before, I went to my meeting on a Monday morning and nobody had signed up to lead, which is unusual.
And, somebody said to me, Nancy,you're sitting right there at the front of the room, you lead.
It was so interesting, Spencer,because that was exactly where I needed to be that day.
(42:14):
It was like God said to me, sitin that seat, open your mouth.
And it's important that you tellwhat's on your mind today and lead.
And it was very cathartic for me.
It was exactly as I said, the righttime and the right place to do that.
(42:35):
Sometimes you pass the calendar aroundand you sign up for a certain date and you work to, what is my topic gonna be?
And, you know, plan for it and all.
And then there's times when you really hadno preparation , and you sit there after you've done your lead and topic and say, that came out better than when I planned for it, you know, for a couple of hours.
(43:00):
So I think sometimes it works both ways.
And I think that God verymuch has a role in that.
You know, that, that he's got yourback and he's, he's watching out for for what direction you're going in.
Spencer (43:13):
Well, how is recovery working in your life these days?
Nancy L (43:17):
I'm in a, in a tough position right now.
We are in Florida, almost all the time.
Always lived in Connecticut,sold our home in Connecticut.
When we come up for the summer,for about the last 12 years we've rented, a home and it's always, you know, worked out really pretty well.
(43:39):
We see some friends, we have onedaughter who still lives up here and it's been a nice change and a nice change of pace for us.
This year, we rented a different home.
We arrived here probably 10 daysago and the house isn't even close to what we were expecting.
(44:02):
I honestly thought we had walked in thewrong house the night we got here, that's how different it was from the pictures.
We are extremely unhappy.
And not comfortable.
And there's not a whole lot wecan do about it other than leave because you can't change the house.
It is what it is.
(44:22):
And when we talked to the owner about,some of our concerns, her answer was, I didn't promise you the Four Seasons.
For the kind of money that you pay forrenting a home up in Fairfield County, in Connecticut, in Greenwich, you know, both of my husband and I looked at each other and said, we're just not comfortable.
(44:48):
We don't need to do this.
Why are we trying to be heroes?
We're gonna turn around within acouple of weeks and go back to Florida.
it's unfortunate.
I admit that I am set in my ways.
I like my creature comforts.
(45:09):
I don't love change.
And I simply, realize this is not whereI can spend the rest of the summer.
What happened was, the same feelingscame up with, I should have come up here and looked at the house.
(45:30):
I shouldn't have relied on the realtor.
Did I not do as a good ajob in finding this house?
Is my husband not gonna be happy?
Is he going to say, why didn'tyou look at this house closer?
It always comes back to those samefeelings of you didn't do it right.
(45:53):
In all the years that we've been doingthis, it's worked out beautifully.
And I have done a great dealof work to get these homes.
This year I relied on this woman.
And she assured me that thehouse was this and this and this.
And I said, great.
And it isn't this and this and this.
The difference is that myhusband is 100% on the same page.
(46:15):
Agrees with me.
Is very sensitive to the fact that I'm nothappy, and he's not a whole lot happier.
So we're making this decision together,but I used my program to be able to say to him, this is how I feel.
And I have to tell you, I'mjust not feeling comfortable.
(46:39):
And, I think we need to make a decision.
This is a blip.
It's not life or death.
Somebody's not sick.
It's not a situation like that.
It's simply a situation where we didn'tdo our due diligence the way we should have, and we need to, turn around and go back home and figure out, plan B.
(47:04):
But I had to use my program very, veryhard to assure myself that it wasn't my fault that I didn't do anything wrong.
It simply is what it is.
And that we have choices.
We're not locked in.
We may lose some money,but we're not locked in.
(47:26):
And thank God that we can do that.
That was definitely my program, myrecovery, my praying, my talking to God and saying, your will not mine.
Help me feel better about this.
Help me get through not aspleasant a day as I would like.
(47:50):
It's been very, very tough.
I hate to say I am too old to dothis, but I'm too old to do this.
I am not 40 years oldand saying so big deal.
You know, I'll deal with it.
Spencer (48:02):
I think one of the things that Al-Anon helps us to recognize is when we actually do need to do something.
When something is notin our best interest.
Nancy L (48:13):
Right,
Spencer (48:14):
And I hear that from you.
Nancy L (48:16):
Somebody told me something a couple of weeks ago that has stuck in my mind like you cannot believe.
Apparently, they were at a church sermonand the priest said, when is your enough?
When is your enough?
Whether it's a change in a positionat work, a relationship, a move, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be materialistic or financial.
(48:47):
When is your enough?
I said to my husband, Ihave reached my enough.
I didn't wanna necessarilydo this in the first place.
I had hesitations about doing it.
I was perfectly happy to stay wherewe were and realize that we were no longer interested in making all the arrangements to come up here, shipping cars, bringing everything.
(49:12):
And, I said to him, Ihave reached my enough.
I should have probably listenedto myself more so, but I didn't.
But I sure am now.
Spencer (49:22):
Yeah.
And not too late.
Nancy L (49:25):
No, not too late.
Spencer (49:28):
You didn't sit there in discomfort and build up a resentment for the whole summer.
Nancy L (49:33):
No, no, no.
And that's, that's program talking.
That's program talking.
Spencer (49:39):
Well, I'm looking forward in the podcast.
I don't know exactly whenthis episode's gonna get out.
On Saturday we're flying to the WestCoast, to visit with a friend, and then going to the AA International Convention in Vancouver, and then we're going on an Alaska cruise.
I have this thought in my head that Ican actually do this while I'm traveling.
(50:00):
We'll see how that works out.
Nancy L (50:01):
Yeah.
Spencer (50:02):
Future Spencer here.
I did do some editing while I wastraveling, sitting on the balcony of our cruise ship, but I am now home and finishing this episode, so that's how that worked out.
We're definitely already scheduledto talk about steps 11 and 12.
I actually have two people to talkabout step 12 because it's got so much in it, we can do that.
(50:27):
Those will be coming.
We always welcome your thoughts.
Please join our conversation here.
Leave us a voicemail or send us an emailwith your feedback or your questions.
And Nancy, how can people sendus feedback and questions?
Nancy L (50:41):
You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5.
You can also use the voicemailbutton on the website to join the conversation from your computer.
(51:02):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, andhope, or your questions about today's topic of practicing Step 10 or any of our upcoming topics, including step 11 and 12.
If you have a topic you'd like usto talk about, please let us know.
If you would like advanced notice forsome of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery show.
Spencer (51:32):
I had an email recently from somebody who wanted to join the mailing list, and I did my normal thing with Google Groups to add them to the mailing list.
And then they emailed me a little whilelater and said, did it actually happen?
I don't see anything.
So I don't know what's going on there.
Google's supposed to send you a noticethat says you've been added to the group.
(51:57):
I tried that with anotheremail address of my own.
I didn't get any notice, soI don't know what's going on.
And the email list is sporadic, it's notlike I send something out every week.
So if you have asked to be on theemail list and you're not sure, ask again because I can look and see if you're on the list.
That's pretty easy and, and let you know.
(52:19):
Yes, you are.
Just haven't sent out anything recently.
Our website is the Recovery Show andwe have information about the show there, which is mostly the notes for each episode, wherein you will find links to the books that we read from, or mentioned, videos for the music.
(52:40):
Also there's some links to otherrecovery, podcasts and websites.
Nancy, you picked another song.
What is it?
Nancy L (52:47):
My favorite group, rascal Flats, Bless the Broken Road.
I think about the years Ispent just passing through.
I'd like to have the time I lostand give it back to you, but you just smile and take my hand.
You've been there.
You understand?
It's all part of a granderplan that is coming true.
(53:11):
God bless the broken roadthat led me straight to you.
I think this leads into a lot ofwhat we've talked about, finding hope and purpose, especially after some difficult times, some times where
we're not quite as sure as others andsuggesting that past struggles lead to a better future and a better road ahead.
Spencer (53:41):
Let's hear what you have to say.
Allen writes, I just discoveredthe show after running through all of Tim M from London's podcasts.
I really enjoyed the first fewrecent episodes I sampled, so I started at the beginning and I've worked through the first 25 or so.
I find the discussionshelpful in many ways.
I've been in Al-Anon for just over threeyears and am now just starting the steps.
(54:04):
Your wisdom and examples of howyou have approached issues and how you use Al-Anon in your lives are instructive and inspiring.
I'm amazed that you have produced somany episodes and I wish you the best.
Allen S.
Thank you for writing Allen.
And yeah, I, I'm kind of amazed howmany episodes we've produced as well.
Robin, writes.
(54:24):
Spencer, thank you for all the effortyou put into each of your conversations.
I am a devoted Al-Anonmember of a parent group.
Each night, your kind wisdom hashelped me navigate the recent loss of my husband, disappointments with my qualifier and navigating a new way forward, letting go and letting God.
Could you do a session with your wonderfulcolleagues on that particular slogan?
(54:47):
I find page 2 0 3, July 21st, in Courageto Change, particularly meaningful.
With much gratitude, Robin.
That's a lovely idea, Robin, and if youare listening and you are interested in doing an episode on this slogan, letting go and letting God, let me know and we'll set up a time to record.
(55:09):
Maureen wrote, hi Spencer.
First thank you for your service.
I started the Al-Anonprogram last October.
Our adult son suffers from multiplemental health conditions, bipolar, borderline traits, A DHD, and multiple addictions, weed, cocaine, and prescribed benzodiazepines.
My son became homeless last September,but for the last two months is serious about his sobriety and went to rehab.
(55:35):
Unfortunately, he becamemanic a few weeks later.
They asked us to pick him upuntil this is under control.
We have taken him into our home andare committed to keep him off the streets as long as he remains sober.
The psychiatrists say he is not sickenough to warrant hospitalization and the residential rehab say he is not mentally stable enough for them.
The problem is that his behavioris still causing us chaos.
(55:59):
We are using the program tools to cope,but a show specifically addressing severe mental illness while supporting your loved one's recovery, specifically keeping him safe from all the trauma he experienced being homeless, would be appreciated.
Thanks, Maureen from Montreal.
I feel like there must be at leastone episode, that's not exactly the same situation, but that shares some experience living with, dealing with, however you wanna put it.
(56:23):
A loved one with mentalillness and addiction.
But , I'm not remembering if therewas one and which one it would be.
As with many of the requests Iget, this is not something that I have direct experience with.
And so I really need the help ofsomebody who has navigated this sort of situation to co-host with me, if we're going to address this topic.
(56:47):
Again, contact me feedback at therecovery show and we can go forward.
Jackie writes, hi Spencer.
I've been listening to you since2019 when I knew I needed help, but didn't really know where to start.
My husband's drinking was out ofcontrol and my life was unmanageable.
Listening to you brought clarity and hope.
(57:07):
Then in 2020 when everything shut down,my husband decided he needed rehab.
Yay.
But that left me home alone,isolated with our four children.
I listened more.
Then after being gone for twoand a half months, he came home and drank three weeks later.
I was crushed.
I was so lost.
I looked into meetings,but everything was online.
I ended up contacting a churchmember that had moved eight hours away that I knew had done Al-Anon.
(57:32):
I asked if she would sponsor me andshe said yes, but only temporarily.
We are now on year five and going strong.
After I was in the program for threeyears, I was at an online meeting and came across a woman asking for help.
We started chatting andI became her sponsor.
I live in California andshe is on the east coast.
We have been working togetherfor two years, and it works.
(57:53):
It's essential we follow the steps, but weare flexible in our time together and how we work our program into our busy lives.
I would be open to discussing thismore if there are questions you have.
Thank you Jackie.
C
Thanks for writing with that experiencein remote sponsoring, I guess in both directions, so thanks for sharing.
Marcelle writes, dear Spencer and Company,first of all, thank you for this podcast.
(58:18):
I know you know, but you'redeeply helping so many.
I am so grateful for you.
I wrote a few months ago about arequest for an episode on dating.
When listening to episode 4 21, about stepfive, there was a voicemail from someone who asked for an episode on dating.
Because you are in a long-termrelationship that survived recovery, you said that you don't have much input.
(58:39):
This I understand.
But I ended a long-termrelationship due to addiction.
Have been in Al-Anon fora year and a few months.
My sponsor suggested that I notconsider dating for at least a year.
This seems very sane and even though I'mover a year in the program and working it fully, I feel my picker is broken.
And so not wanting to try to date, thereis no one in my life I want to date yet, but there was someone I had been attracted to for three years since we met
(59:05):
and since I was in my marriage, I avoidedthat person because it was so strange to be attracted to someone not my husband.
That had never happened inthe 25 years we were together.
So we spent some time togetherover the course of the next week, and while it awakened me to being a woman again, it was super fun.
We ended up just ghosting eachother, letting it just go.
(59:26):
We didn't talk about it.
It just felt right, and my sponsorwas glad I didn't pursue this as I was only about nine months in the program.
I was able to recognize that datingtoo soon could derail my program.
Lucky this dalliance didnot derail my program.
It helped me to realize that he was not mypeople, that's in quotes, and that I had a pattern of choosing romantic partners or spouses that were not my people.
(59:49):
So dating is a good topic.
I feel like I may not have much to offeras I'm only 15 months in the program.
I have not started datingand have no desire to either.
But I would love to hear frommore veteran Al-Anon-ers.
Thanks for all you do, Marcelle.
I got a couple of emails from Mary.
The first one she writes, your podcasthas brought me back to Al-Anon.
(01:00:11):
Thank you.
A true lifesaver.
I'm making my way through theepisodes, and I'd like to share something in response to episode 41.
Vulnerability.
Yes.
As Brene Brown points out,vulnerability can be an act of courage.
It can also be an act of self harm whenwe open ourselves up to someone who has repeatedly harmed us, pointed out our faults, our mistakes, our weaknesses.
(01:00:32):
We will be again andagain and again, hurt.
So I will offer this, we don't oweanyone, especially someone who has repeatedly harmed us, our vulnerability.
Protecting ourselves from thesepeople as an act of self-care.
Thank you.
And I'll keep coming back Mary,and thank you Mary, for pointing out that what should be but is not always obvious, thing.
(01:00:57):
When choosing to be vulnerable, it'sreally important to also consider safety.
thanks.
And then she wrote, again, I justlistened to episode 42, living Rich, Full Lives in Recovery.
And I'd like to offer this alist of simple things that are available to us from Lincoln in the Bardo by george Saunders.
(01:01:19):
So this is a list of simple things.
The text will be in the transcript,which will be in the show notes at the recovery show slash 4 36.
A Gaggle of children trudgingthrough a side-blown December flurry.
A friendly match-share beneathsome collision tilted streetlight.
A frozen clock, bird-visitedwithin its high tower
(01:01:42):
cold water from a tin jug
toweling off, one's clingingshirt post-June rain.
Someone's kind wishes for you,
someone remembering to write,
someone noticing that youare not at all at ease.
A hedge top underhand as you fleelate to some chalk-and-woodfire smelling schoolhouse
(01:02:06):
geese above.
Clover below
the sound of one's own breath when winded
the way a moistness in the eyewill blur a field of stars,
the sore place on the shouldera resting toboggan makes
writing one's beloved's name upon afrosted window with a gloved finger
(01:02:27):
tying a shoe,
tying a knot on a package,
a hand on yours.
The end of the day,
the beginning of the day,
the feeling that therewill always be a day ahead.
Loon-call in the dark
calf-cramp in the spring
neck-rub in the parlor
milk-sip at end of day.
(01:02:50):
Thanks for that, Mary.
That's a nice list.
I did manage to meet a fewof you at the AA convention.
Kathy left this voicemailabout our brief meetup.
Kathy (01:03:02):
Hi Spencer, it's Kathy.
I am leaving some feedback for youcoming over and acknowledging who you were with me at the convention.
It was so nice to see you in personafter listening to you for so many years.
I just wanted you to know how muchI appreciated it and how much it filled my heart, and after all, it was the language of the heart.
(01:03:27):
Okay, thank you.
Bye bye.
Spencer (01:03:29):
Letizia wrote, hi Spencer.
Glad we got a brief conscious contact tomeet one another while at the convention.
Hope you and your wife had a lovelyvisit and enjoyed the convention.
Loved the city.
We got lucky with greatweather during that week.
And Letizia, you're absolutelyright, the weather was great.
She put conscious contact inquotes because we met at a Al-Anon session about conscious contact.
(01:03:56):
I can't necessarily rememberall of you that I met.
It was really great to have, in somecases just a brief meet and other cases, a more extended conversation about things we had in common.
The next opportunity for meetingup with some of you would be at the Kentucky State Al-Anon convention, the weekend of September 27th.
(01:04:19):
I will be speaking that day.
We got a review on Apple Podcasts titledLike A Meeting At Your Fingertips.
I just discovered this podcast.
After listening to a few recent episodes,I went back and started at the beginning.
Great topics well presentedby thoughtful people.
A lot of Al-Anon wisdomin action in their shares.
Well, thank you for that review.
(01:04:40):
And that is it for this episode.
Nancy, I want to thank youfor joining me today for our conversation about practicing Step 10 and some of the difficulties that have arisen for us at times.
Nancy L (01:04:55):
Thank you.
I loved talking with youand being on your podcast.
I listen to it every chanceI get, I'm totally up to date on all of your episodes.
So you are very much apart of my daily life.
Spencer (01:05:09):
Thank you.
And I picked the third song, the songis, I Was Wrong by Chris Stapleton.
And again, you can listen to all threesongs at the recovery show slash 4 3 6.
I just picked up the opening lyrics here.
I've been thinking about my thoughtlesswords and I know just how much they must have hurt and I take it back, won't you let me take it back.
(01:05:34):
Maybe we need a little bit more thantaking it back sometimes, but it really expresses that I know I was wrong.
What do I need to do to make it right?
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
(01:05:55):
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
Step 10 asks us to promptly admit it when we are wrong.
How do we make this workin our life, in practice?
Welcome to episode 436of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought toyou by Pete, Scott and Claire.
They used the donationbutton on our website.
Thank you, Pete, Scott, and Clairefor your generous contributions.
(00:22):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members ofalcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with theseemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our ownattitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Nancy L (00:44):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we willshare our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
Spencer (01:07):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today.
Joining me today is Nancy.
Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Nancy.
And you reminded me that we recordedepisode 377, whether the alcoholic is drinking or not, back in early 2022.
So welcome back.
Nancy L (01:24):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Spencer (01:27):
We are going to open with a reading you have from Hope for Today.
Nancy L (01:32):
Yep, I do.
On page 1 73, June 21st.
Step 10 continued to take personalinventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it, reminds me that I have the right to be human.
My sponsor tells me that God made me aperfect human being, not a perfect God.
(01:56):
I certainly do engage regularlyin a wide variety of human behaviors, making mistakes, harming others, and hurting myself.
No matter how long I am in recovery,I'll never progress beyond being human.
However, according to my humancondition, it doesn't mean I have to live with the uncomfortable feelings, such as guilt and shame, which often go along with making human mistakes.
(02:26):
Step 10 invites me to regularlykeep a finger on my spiritual pulse so I can cooperate with God in my spiritual growth and healing.
It says that if I do or say somethingwrong, I can stop, turn around, and do something different now.
Step 10 invites me to growup, be responsible, and make amends all for my own benefits.
(02:53):
I take Step 10 because I wantto be the best me I can be.
Thought for today, when I continueto take personal inventory and amend my wrongs, I can live my life peacefully with God's other children.
This step continues the process,which began with step four, being aware of the things we do and taking corrective measures without delay.
Spencer (03:20):
Thank you.
You sent me an email with a storyabout acting out on step 10.
Maybe we'll start with that.
Nancy L (03:29):
I had written you and said that it's amazing that after being in this program for as many years as I have, which is probably close to 30 years, I continue to come up short at times.
And, as it says in this readingtoday, that I have the right to be human, which hit me tremendously.
(03:53):
That God made me a humanbeing not a perfect God.
And I have to keepreminding myself of that.
No matter how many years, no matterhow much work, no matter how many meetings I go to, I have to be reminded daily that I am, not perfect.
(04:14):
I had a situation where my son, whowas my qualifier, my loved one, was visiting for a couple of days with my husband and I. He was home with my husband, and I was driving the car home.
I was very close to home.
I was coming over the causeway.
My dog was in the front seatand got startled by something and jumped into my lap.
(04:38):
As a result, I swerved.
And the car went into the side of thecauseway not doing any damage to the car, but the tire was absolutely demolished.
I came home, I walked in the houseand I said to my son, oh my God, I can't believe what just happened.
(05:01):
I was driving over the causeway andout of the blue, the tire exploded and I lost control of the car.
It went into the side and I havea horrible flat tire and I'm gonna have to have the car towed.
He came out and he looked at thetire and he said, yeah, you did a great job to the tire, Mom.
Went into my husband and toldhim the exact same story.
(05:25):
Called the tow truck company.
The tow truck company had to come take thecar away and bring it to the tire place.
It was an expensive situation with thecost of the tow truck and the new tire.
And my husband kept saying to me,tell me again how this happened.
Tell me again how this happened.
And I kept insisting that this washow it happened, and that out of the blue, this tire just popped and blew up and caused this flat tire.
(05:57):
The next day when we went topick up the car, he said to the woman at the, tire company, have you ever heard of this before?
And she said, I can'timagine how it happened.
I have never heard this.
It's hard for me to believethat this is how it happened.
So that night.
We're out to dinner, my husband and myson and I, and he confronted me again.
(06:23):
And I got extremely upset.
I was backed up against a wall,Spencer, like you can't believe.
And I came out fightingand I got extremely mad.
I said, you obviously don't believe me.
You think I'm lying.
You didn't even care whetherI was all right or not.
(06:44):
And I went bananas, handled myselfhorribly and went slamming into the bedroom, slammed the door.
About 15 minutes later, hecame in and he looked at me and he said, Nancy, you're lying.
Are you lying?
And I said, yes.
(07:05):
And he said, I knew it.
It just didn't sound right.
I said to him, I am so sorry.
I need to make an amends to you.
I treated this so wrong.
It was so inappropriate.
I was not honest with you.
I was not truthful.
(07:26):
I turned it all on you andSteven and it was 100% my fault.
And he said, why did you do it?
I said, I did it because I didn'twant you to think less of me.
I didn't want you to think that becausethe dog was in the car in the front seat, which you don't like anyway, had jumped on me, I caused this to happen.
(07:51):
I was so concerned how itmade you feel about me.
It brought me up so short.
Because I thought to myself, A,haven't you come far enough that you don't do this, that, that you don't even come close to doing this?
And B, are you not confident enough?
(08:15):
Do you not have enough self worth andconfidence in yourself that you can't say to your husband of all these years?
You know what?
The dog jumped in my lap.
I didn't know what to do.
The car went into the side.
I have a flat tire, not a big deal.
It was very, very upsetting to methat I handled it in that way and he couldn't have cared less about the tire.
(08:42):
What he cared about is that I insistedthat this was how it happened and that I accused him of not believing me.
The good news, the only good news thatcame out of that is that I knew how to make amends, that I didn't continue it, that I had put up with this farce long enough that I said, I owe you an amends.
(09:08):
I owe Steven an amends, and I amextremely sorry for my behavior.
Spencer (09:13):
How did you feel during that day or so when you were still living in the lie.
It was the lie that you're makingamends for eventually, right?
Not the car accident.
Nancy L (09:25):
No, no.
No, as he said, you know,big deal, it's a tire.
You didn't destroy the car.
You're fine.
It's a tire, you know, youcould have easily have told me.
And I said to him, it goesback to feeling less than.
And that is a tremendouscharacter defect of mine.
(09:48):
I run into these situations from time totime where I'm just not able to own up, and realize again, that I'm not perfect and that these things are going to happen.
And he handled it so well in thesense of saying to me, you do 75% for me, and I do probably 25% for you.
(10:13):
You couldn't do anything bad in my eyes.
Which made me feel even worse.
But, no, I didn't feel good about whatI was doing and I wondered for that day, how long I was going to be able to continue this charade and not come clean.
But the longer that I did do that, thelonger I felt backed up against that wall, especially with my son there.
(10:38):
Who is a recovering alcoholic withmental health issues, who has lied more times than you can shake a stick out over the years that he was dealing with substance abuse.
So if anybody would understand, he would.
And when I made the amends to himthe next morning, he said to me, Mom, kind of welcome to my world.
(11:03):
Do you know how many times Ilied to you in my lifetime?
I mean, this is not something that isshockingly new to me, and I'm sorry that you felt that you had to do that.
Spencer (11:16):
One of the things that I know how I would react, having lied about something and then feeling, as you say, backed up against the wall.
I would react with angeras I think you did.
Nancy L (11:31):
Very much so.
Spencer (11:33):
And that speaks to what happens to us when we fall off the program.
Nancy L (11:40):
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (11:41):
After you made your amends to your husband and to your son, what was the change in how you felt?
Nancy L (11:49):
I think like so many times you hear from other people and read in our literature, that was very freeing.
I felt obviously a lot better about it.
I was filled with guilt and shame.
But that was gone and I was so veryappreciative of the fact that my husband and my son didn't come back at me again, which I don't think that they would, but maybe somebody else would.
Spencer (12:19):
Yeah.
Nancy L (12:19):
And bring it all up again.
And why did you do it?
Why did you do it?
I just don't understand why you didit instead saying, okay, it's over.
It's done.
I appreciate what you hadto say and let's move on.
Which was, a relief.
Very much so for me.
I did come back and again, tellthem how much I appreciated that and how much I loved them.
(12:46):
I wanted them to know that.
And that I would certainlystrive not to do that, in any way, shape or form very often.
But every once in a while, aswe all say, this comes out.
The good news is, is that I was ableto recognize it and I was able to admit it, and I was able to say, I am wrong.
(13:10):
At another time in my life beforeprogram, I would've continued this and I would have fought and fought.
To make them understand or to try tomake them understand that they were wrong and that I was right, and how dare they question what I was telling them.
So, I have learned a great deal from that.
(13:34):
But as I said to you in my voicemailto you, it brings me up short when I do something like this after all the years that I have been in program.
Spencer (13:48):
Yeah.
I think the reading that you brought isperfect for that because we're human.
We're not perfect.
Maybe we've been made a perfecthuman being, but part of being human is making mistakes.
Nancy L (14:03):
Yeah.
Spencer (14:04):
I was thinking about times when I had a delay in making amends, or didn't realize that I needed to.
It was a while ago.
I was with a bunch of Al-Anon friends.
We were having some kind of aafternoon gathering picnic thing.
One of the people there waslike, I have to go home because something to do with her kid.
(14:26):
I don't remember the details now.
And I was kind of teasingher about that, saying.
I don't remember exactly what I wassaying, but later, I think later that same day, another friend texted me and said, that felt really inappropriate.
What was up there that didn'tseem like the Spencer that I know.
(14:48):
At that point I said, thankyou for bringing that up.
I'm gonna have to think about this.
I'm going to think aboutwhat happened and why.
This actually was one of the firstexperiences where I really deliberately and explicitly worked the earlier steps on this particular problem.
I spent quite some time thinking aboutwhat was my motivation, what was I trying to do, what feelings was I working from, and one of those that still pops up now and then it still does, is I want people to like me, right?
Nancy L (15:26):
Exactly.
Spencer (15:27):
One of the ways that that comes out for me is this sort of teasing behavior.
Hey, we're really good friends.
So I can say this thing to you thatwould maybe be offensive if I was just saying it to a random person, but since we're such good friends, I can do that.
We were not that good friends.
(15:49):
Okay?
This was an illusion inmy head or something.
I had to think about that, do the whys.
What was I feeling?
What was I trying to accomplish?
What outcome was I looking for?
And after I spent some timedoing inventory on that incident, I wrote an apology.
(16:11):
Trying very hard to not JADE,justify, argue, defend, explain.
I just apologized for the way that Ihad interacted with her that afternoon.
I think I ran it by the friend whobrought it up to me in the first place.
'cause why not get a secondset of eyes on there.
Nancy L (16:33):
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (16:34):
And I sent it and I did not get any response.
And when I saw the person nextat a meeting, we were neutral.
And I felt like I did what I could.
The important part of it for me was,from the point of view of working the principles of the program.
(16:55):
When it was brought to my attentionthat this was not appropriate behavior.
I did take the time to considerwhat was going on, and what form of amends might be appropriate.
And then to act that.
Nancy L (17:11):
Yeah, you said the word motive.
I think that comes into play so many timeswhen we're in a situation like this.
A what is your motive?
What was your motive there?
And B, what were your expectations?
You apologized in a textor whatever to this person.
They didn't respond.
Was your expectation that they were goingto write you back and say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for, getting back to me.
(17:40):
No problem.
I'm so glad you, reached out.
And as a result, not hearingfrom them, were you disappointed.
Spencer (17:49):
I think that I consciously did not set an expectation of any kind of response.
I knew that I just neededto do what I could to try to clean up my side of the street.
And what they did withthat was theirs, not mine.
So yes, I was a little bit nervousat the next meeting when that person was there and I didn't get anything back then, but it felt like we're okay with each other, and we didn't need to go any further on it.
(18:22):
One of the things thatI find is very helpful.
When I identify a step 10 incident, let'scall it that, when I make a mistake when I'm wrong, is to do a little bit of inventory to really understand what is acting in me that caused that to happen.
Nancy L (18:43):
exactly.
Spencer (18:44):
Which of my character defects was acting up that moment.
Nancy L (18:48):
yeah.
I didn't wanna look foolish.
I didn't want to admit that thedog was on my lap in the front seat, which is probably not the safest thing in the world.
As you said, it's 100% people pleasing.
I didn't want to look any less than who Iwas and who I wanted them to think I was.
(19:12):
That's where I get myself in trouble.
I try so hard to be somebodythat I might not necessarily be as comfortable being, because I think that's what they would like.
Spencer (19:24):
Yes, yes.
Oh my God, yes.
I wrote some thought questions here.
I don't know if these are helpful or not.
A time when doing yourstep ten amends was easy.
We already talked about one whenit was hard and you didn't admit it right away and didn't immediately, as it says in this step, promptly, it says promptly, doesn't it?
Nancy L (19:45):
Right.
Right.
Spencer (19:47):
And, how that felt.
Gratefully, it worked out for you.
In my case, I was pretty prompt, onceI was informed of the thing that I needed to potentially make amends for.
I didn't recognize it at the time, and I'mnot sure that I would have recognized it without this friend pointing it out to me.
Nancy L (20:10):
Interesting.
Spencer (20:11):
you know, because I thought, I was just being friendly,
Nancy L (20:16):
Yep.
But I, I think when yousay when is it easy?
It's never easy.
I'm not sure easy iseven the correct word.
I find that when I am in a meeting,when I am surrounded by my Al-Anon friends, the people in the program, the people who work the program, my son who
(20:37):
works, his program, where I know thatwhen I make an amends, I'm not being judged, I'm not being criticized, I'm not being thought any differently of.
It is easier, if we can use that word.
It's more comfortable to makean amends to people who get it.
(20:59):
Who have been in the same situation, whoare in the same situation, who are sitting there and know me backwards and forwards.
And I can sit in a meeting and look at thepeople around that table and say, what I need to say and feel safe, totally safe.
Spencer (21:18):
yes.
Nancy L (21:19):
I didn't feel safe.
It was my defect, but I didn't feel safebeing honest with my husband and my son.
Because it was more important to me atthat moment that they not think I did something wrong and that it was the tire that blew up and I had no control over it.
Spencer (21:40):
right.
So I am still in the middleof a thing where I'm pretty sure I need to make amends.
I'm not sure.
I think I probably do, but I haven't.
About a week ago I was talking witha neighbor about a local issue.
I was expressing my opinion ofthis local issue very strongly.
(22:04):
Sort of condemning people who wereon the other side of the issue.
Condemning is a very strong word, butthat's effectively what I was doing.
I was saying these people have thismotivation for being on the other side of the issue that I just feel is wrong.
I said, I think this is what theirmotive is and I don't like it.
(22:29):
And I said it probably a little morestrongly that I'm saying it right now.
This conversation was prompted by someyard signs that were across the street.
The next day, I'm walking aroundthe block and I noticed that he has that same sign in his front yard.
And I'm like, oh, geez, did Ieffectively condemn him with those words?
(22:52):
Did I impute a motivationto him that he doesn't have?
And how's he feeling about me?
' cause it's all about me.
Right?
And for several days, every timeI walked past their yard and saw the sign, I had this sort of guilt feeling about what I had said.
I've been thinking about what is anappropriate way to make amends for that.
(23:17):
Because I have my opinion,I expressed my opinion.
I, I'm not gonna go and say,well, I didn't really think that.
I think what I want to do is ask him,so tell me why you have this sign.
What are you feeling?
What are you thinking?
And try to just receive,like we do in a meeting.
Nancy L (23:38):
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (23:40):
To say I'd, I'd like to understand, because obviously I have some feelings about this, but I may be totally misunderstanding other people's motivation on this.
I feel like I should talk to him.
But it's the whole thing.
Like I don't want him to feel badlyof me, so I'm not talking to him, which could help, repair if there's any damage to the relationship.
(24:04):
It's one of those crazyemotional, somewhat fear-based people pleasing things.
Right.
Nancy L (24:09):
Right,
Spencer (24:10):
And it's not comfortable right now.
We've had a couple of neutralinteractions about his daughters watering our plants while we're out of town, and, those have gone just fine.
But I really need to, next time I see'em out on the sidewalk to say, look, I expressed myself pretty strongly about these signs, but I'd really like to understand your point of view on that.
Nancy L (24:34):
Yeah, I think the last time that I was on with you, we talked about the isms of the disease, and I find over and over and over again that when I'm in any kind of a conversation, especially with my son, and I keep it in the "I".
(24:54):
We learn this all the time in the program.
Every time I would say, you need tounderstand this, or you did this, or, you didn't act correctly in this, it drove a wall between the two of us that was very hard to break down.
Keeping it in the "I".
(25:16):
You own your feelings.
Those are your feelings and youown them, and nobody can tell you, you can't feel the way you feel.
So I start so many conversationswith, it's important for you to know how I feel about this.
You may not agree, you may not, feelthe same way that I do, but it's important that I express how I feel.
(25:45):
And I think that that takes the onusoff of them, and I think it frees them to say, wow, they're willing to listen.
They're willing to hearwhat I have to say.
Instead of coming at them.
We're kind of, as you said, meeting themhalfway and saying, help me understand why you're doing what you're doing, or you feel the way you feel because it's important that you know how I feel.
Spencer (26:16):
And that is not, I think, human nature.
For many of us at least, it's notmost people's first choice, right?
Nancy L (26:26):
No, no.
But it's so much healthierand it's less toxic.
And arguments or confrontations,or whatever you wanna call them, can become extremely toxic.
And before you know it, what youoriginally were disagreeing about has escalated to such an entirely different level that you forgot what you even started talking about.
(26:51):
If I'm in a conversation withsomebody, I will say, this is my thoughts, this is my opinion.
This absolutely doesn't have to beyour opinion, but it's important that, I feel that blah, blah, blah.
Then you just see this look onpeople's faces that's like, okay, she's willing to listen to me.
(27:16):
Even if I don't agree with her,she's willing to listen to me because she's not judging me and criticizing me and saying, no, no, no, your opinion isn't the same as mine.
Therefore you're wrong.
This man has a reasonfor whatever he's doing.
And I think as human beings, we owethem the courtesy of hearing them out.
(27:41):
And he may have something to say toyou that you never thought of before, and you would, automatically go, well, I never thought of it that way.
Spencer (27:52):
It's entirely possible.
I think getting back to the step 10 partof it, right now, I have this low level of unease, sort of every time I think about him, like that is hurting me a whole lot more than it's hurting him.
I'm pretty sure.
Nancy L (28:10):
Absolutely.
You are not feeling any more comfortableor that you've come out ahead on this,
Spencer (28:16):
Nope, which is what Step 10 is all about.
It's not only keeping.
As we like to say, our side of the streetclean, but it's also about keeping our emotional set clean in a sense.
That's the beauty andthe power of that step.
Nancy L (28:35):
Spencer, you've been in this program a long time and isn't it interesting that you're struggling with this too?
Spencer (28:44):
I am still human.
I'm still human.
I think it was in the last episode,Pat said, practice makes progress
Nancy L (28:54):
absolutely, I wrote that down.
Spencer (28:56):
and the more I can keep practicing this, the less often I need to do it, you know?
Nancy L (29:05):
yep,
Spencer (29:06):
Or I do it right away.
Nancy L (29:08):
Yes.
I'm a big journaler and I journal a lot,and I have been journaling about this.
It helps me to get it out of myhead and put it down on paper and then be able to go back and look at what I wrote and remember how I felt then and how I feel now.
(29:32):
For me, and again, it's not foreverybody, but for me, I probably have 27, 28 journals that I've written since I started on this journey.
I don't throw them away and I keep thembecause it's important for me to go back and look at where I've been and hope that where I've been is not where I am now.
Spencer (29:55):
I've been hearing a number of people talking about the power of writing and writing by hand.
When I've been able to do that,definitely have experienced that.
Here's a quote from a woman, NaomiShihab Nye, who is, interviewed in On Being, and she said, rarely do you ever hear anyone say, they write things down and feel worse.
Nancy L (30:25):
I 100% agree.
Spencer (30:27):
The thing that I've noticed about writing, and I, I really do think somehow writing by hand is different than typing it into a computer or
Nancy L (30:37):
Yes.
Yes.
Spencer (30:40):
is the train of thought that's being expressed in the writing sometimes goes places that I didn't expect it to.
Nancy L (30:46):
And what does that mean?
Spencer (30:47):
What does that mean?
I see that as my higherpower trying to talk to me.
Nancy L (30:53):
I see.
Spencer (30:55):
The times when I've done the steps, been generally working with paths to recovery and so there's all those questions.
I've always bought a new blankjournal, something with a nice cover and good paper, and write out my answers to those questions in long hand because yes, I did learn how to write script 'cause I'm that old,
Nancy L (31:21):
Mm-hmm.
Me too.
Spencer (31:23):
I feel like there's, there is, there's a real power in doing that.
Nancy L (31:28):
Well, as I said, it makes it real.
You know what I mean?
It's not make believe, you'renot going back and reading it and going, oh, I didn't make that up.
It really happened.
Spencer (31:40):
It makes it real in another sense that, for me, as long as something is only in my head, it has a certain unreality to it.
Nancy L (31:49):
Yes.
Spencer (31:51):
and if I get it out of my head by telling it to another person, by writing it down.
I don't have a good sort of conversationalrelationship with my higher power.
So, writing it down is a way that I canfeel that I am telling it to maybe myself, maybe my higher power, and making it real and then, I can do something with it.
Nancy L (32:18):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Spencer (32:19):
I found this when I was working the inventory step, in particular, it's really easy to just sort of something in my head and it goes away and it's gone.
But if I write it down, thenI have to acknowledge it.
Nancy L (32:33):
Exactly, that's the word.
Acknowledge it.
Yep.
I've written letters to my higher power.
I've written letters to my anxiety.
A couple of times.
Literally, We're gonnaget through this together.
We're gonna be friends.
We're not enemies.
Whatever it took, I have written letters.
I've been advised by my sponsor to do thatseveral times, and that is very freeing.
(32:59):
Boy, that works very well for me.
And I'm able to go back andread those over and over again.
I feel a true sense that I'm being heard.
Whether it's by my inner self, whetherit's by my higher power, I don't know.
But it makes it real.
(33:19):
It's not in my head.
It makes it real and it needs to besaid, and it's important enough that it needs to be said and put down on paper.
Spencer (33:29):
Anything you wanna close with here, put a bow on it as a friend of mine would say.
Nancy L (33:35):
As I said to you before, I think these 9, 10, 11 steps, even 12, really, all play into each other so well, and they flow so well.
I feel that if we really, really workthese steps, especially, the nine and 10 and making amends, and really taking our inventory similar to a step four, that we are able to have so much more of a spiritual awakening.
(34:04):
And that is for me, so terribly, terriblyimportant, to have that spiritual awakening, to know that I am not alone, to know that my higher power is walking
with me every single day, every stepof the way, and doesn't get mad at me and doesn't judge me, and doesn't say, oh my God, Nancy, you were so wrong.
(34:28):
But gently nudges me into doingwhat is the right thing to do.
Spencer (34:34):
Wow.
Thank you for that.
You brought some music.
Nancy L (34:39):
Yep.
The first song I picked was,A Better Man by Taylor Swift.
Some of the words really spoke to me.
It says, I know I'm probably betteroff on my own, than loving a man who didn't know what he had when he had it.
And I see the permanentdamage you do to me.
(35:00):
Never again.
I just wish I couldforget when it was magic.
But your jealousy, oh, I can hear it now.
Talking down to me like I'd alwaysbe around, push my love away, like it was some kind of loaded gun.
Oh, you never thought I'd run.
(35:22):
Which is really kind of ametaphor for recovery and finding peace, especially after turmoil.
Moving forward, and healing.
I felt that this song, those couple oflyrics and those phrases, spoke to that.
Spencer (35:48):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we been experiencingrecovery recently?
Well, there's a bunch of thingsgoing on in Al-Anon as a whole.
I don't know how much you've beenaware of this, but in 2024, the World Service Conference made a decision about policy for naming groups.
(36:13):
That group names should not includeidentifiers such as men or women or LGBT, people of color, parents, children, because they felt that would discourage people from attending a meeting.
(36:33):
And our third tradition says theonly requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.
They said, this is what we think.
We're gonna establish this policy.
The World Service Office took thatand ran a little further with it than the conference had intended, and said existing meetings are gonna need to change their names also.
(36:57):
I don't know how things have been inyour meetings, but in a couple of my meetings, people really did not like this.
Apparently those were not the only people,because at this year's World Service Conference in 2025, they apparently talked about this issue on all four days.
Nancy L (37:19):
Wow.
Spencer (37:20):
They came out with a statement that says, okay, we're gonna rescind this policy for now and we wanna hear from you.
Our delegate brought this documentback to the area assembly, gave it to all of the group representatives with the hope that groups would be able
(37:41):
to talk about this issue, probablyduring their business meeting, during their group conscience meeting.
Then give feedback back, to the delegatewho can bring it back to the World Service Conference next year, so that hopefully they can make a policy that is more in line with how the people in the groups are feeling about this.
Nancy L (38:03):
Wow.
Is the first I'm hearing about this.
Absolutely the first.
Spencer (38:08):
Yeah, if you're not involved in the activities of Al-Anon at the district, area and world service level, you might not have been aware of this, until you tried to start a meeting that you called it Women's Morning Serenity,
Nancy L (38:25):
I
Spencer (38:25):
and they would say, sorry, you can't use the word women in the name of your group.
Well now they're not gonnado that, at least for a year.
Nancy L (38:33):
Okay.
Spencer (38:34):
You might ask your group representative, like, have you heard about this yet?
Nancy L (38:38):
Yes, I will.
Absolutely.
'cause I'm there every week and wehave group conscience, and we have business meetings, and we have a group rep and nothing has ever come up.
Spencer (38:48):
Yeah.
Well, some people, either they don'tknow about it or they think it's fine.
Which, you know, that'swhat we need to figure out.
When we look at the structure of Al-Anon,the first concept of service says that the ultimate authority rests with the groups.
It's this sort of inverted pyramidstructure with the, the groups at the top, and it gets smaller and smaller until you get down to the World Service office at the bottom.
(39:15):
So that's something I'vebeen thinking about recently.
And they wrote up a really nicedocument, to ask people for feedback.
It's questions for discussion.
Tradition three.
The relatives of alcoholics whengathered together for mutual aid may call themselves an Al-Anon family group, provided that as a group, they have no other affiliation.
The only requirement for membershipis that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.
(39:39):
And then the question that they put withthat is, do identifiers such as men, women, parents, et cetera in group names.
Uphold this tradition.
Why or why not?
Wide open question.
But there's also tradition four.
Every group should be autonomousexcept in matters affecting another group or Al-Anon or AA as a whole.
(40:00):
And the question that they giveus is, how do identifiers in group names affect Al-Anon as a whole?
Or do they?
I got this because I was a group rep andapparently I'm still on the mailing list.
Nancy L (40:12):
I see.
I see.
Spencer (40:13):
But I had heard about the policy change from friends who were really unhappy with it.
Anyway, so that's onething that's been going on.
Al-Anon related , but I didn't tendto really talk that long about it.
The other day our meeting topic wassteps eight and nine, which is a meeting where we're kind of doing a book study on how Al-Anon works.
(40:34):
We'll read a section of the bookand then we'll share on that.
This time we went, through steps eightand nine in the chapter on the 12 steps.
I had just been talking about stepseight and nine and 10 in the podcast.
And so, I brought someof what I had learned.
Into my share in the meeting, you know?
And I thought, well, this is nice.
(40:55):
Often it goes the other way.
Something happens in a meeting,I bring it to the podcast.
Well, now something happened to thepodcast and I brought it to the meeting.
And finally, I have a service positionin one of my meetings, which is I'm one of the two people that has a key to the, building that we meet in to open it up for the meeting.
And I'm gonna be away for several weeks.
And so, really had to make sure to reachout and say, this is what's happening.
(41:20):
I'm gonna be gone.
I am hoping that the other person whohas a key is able to open the church on those days, or I could leave my key with somebody else in case he can't do it.
He almost immediately wrote backand said, I got you covered.
I did that well ahead to give peopletime to think about it and to be able to make arrangements if I needed to.
(41:41):
That's something I've learnedsomehow in program is like, you can't just let things happen sometimes,
Nancy L (41:48):
It's funny, a couple of weeks ago when this situation happened that I talked about before, I went to my meeting on a Monday morning and nobody had signed up to lead, which is unusual.
And, somebody said to me, Nancy,you're sitting right there at the front of the room, you lead.
It was so interesting, Spencer,because that was exactly where I needed to be that day.
(42:14):
It was like God said to me, sitin that seat, open your mouth.
And it's important that you tellwhat's on your mind today and lead.
And it was very cathartic for me.
It was exactly as I said, the righttime and the right place to do that.
(42:35):
Sometimes you pass the calendar aroundand you sign up for a certain date and you work to, what is my topic gonna be?
And, you know, plan for it and all.
And then there's times when you really hadno preparation , and you sit there after you've done your lead and topic and say, that came out better than when I planned for it, you know, for a couple of hours.
(43:00):
So I think sometimes it works both ways.
And I think that God verymuch has a role in that.
You know, that, that he's got yourback and he's, he's watching out for for what direction you're going in.
Spencer (43:13):
Well, how is recovery working in your life these days?
Nancy L (43:17):
I'm in a, in a tough position right now.
We are in Florida, almost all the time.
Always lived in Connecticut,sold our home in Connecticut.
When we come up for the summer,for about the last 12 years we've rented, a home and it's always, you know, worked out really pretty well.
(43:39):
We see some friends, we have onedaughter who still lives up here and it's been a nice change and a nice change of pace for us.
This year, we rented a different home.
We arrived here probably 10 daysago and the house isn't even close to what we were expecting.
(44:02):
I honestly thought we had walked in thewrong house the night we got here, that's how different it was from the pictures.
We are extremely unhappy.
And not comfortable.
And there's not a whole lot wecan do about it other than leave because you can't change the house.
It is what it is.
(44:22):
And when we talked to the owner about,some of our concerns, her answer was, I didn't promise you the Four Seasons.
For the kind of money that you pay forrenting a home up in Fairfield County, in Connecticut, in Greenwich, you know, both of my husband and I looked at each other and said, we're just not comfortable.
(44:48):
We don't need to do this.
Why are we trying to be heroes?
We're gonna turn around within acouple of weeks and go back to Florida.
it's unfortunate.
I admit that I am set in my ways.
I like my creature comforts.
(45:09):
I don't love change.
And I simply, realize this is not whereI can spend the rest of the summer.
What happened was, the same feelingscame up with, I should have come up here and looked at the house.
(45:30):
I shouldn't have relied on the realtor.
Did I not do as a good ajob in finding this house?
Is my husband not gonna be happy?
Is he going to say, why didn'tyou look at this house closer?
It always comes back to those samefeelings of you didn't do it right.
(45:53):
In all the years that we've been doingthis, it's worked out beautifully.
And I have done a great dealof work to get these homes.
This year I relied on this woman.
And she assured me that thehouse was this and this and this.
And I said, great.
And it isn't this and this and this.
The difference is that myhusband is 100% on the same page.
(46:15):
Agrees with me.
Is very sensitive to the fact that I'm nothappy, and he's not a whole lot happier.
So we're making this decision together,but I used my program to be able to say to him, this is how I feel.
And I have to tell you, I'mjust not feeling comfortable.
(46:39):
And, I think we need to make a decision.
This is a blip.
It's not life or death.
Somebody's not sick.
It's not a situation like that.
It's simply a situation where we didn'tdo our due diligence the way we should have, and we need to, turn around and go back home and figure out, plan B.
(47:04):
But I had to use my program very, veryhard to assure myself that it wasn't my fault that I didn't do anything wrong.
It simply is what it is.
And that we have choices.
We're not locked in.
We may lose some money,but we're not locked in.
(47:26):
And thank God that we can do that.
That was definitely my program, myrecovery, my praying, my talking to God and saying, your will not mine.
Help me feel better about this.
Help me get through not aspleasant a day as I would like.
(47:50):
It's been very, very tough.
I hate to say I am too old to dothis, but I'm too old to do this.
I am not 40 years oldand saying so big deal.
You know, I'll deal with it.
Spencer (48:02):
I think one of the things that Al-Anon helps us to recognize is when we actually do need to do something.
When something is notin our best interest.
Nancy L (48:13):
Right,
Spencer (48:14):
And I hear that from you.
Nancy L (48:16):
Somebody told me something a couple of weeks ago that has stuck in my mind like you cannot believe.
Apparently, they were at a church sermonand the priest said, when is your enough?
When is your enough?
Whether it's a change in a positionat work, a relationship, a move, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be materialistic or financial.
(48:47):
When is your enough?
I said to my husband, Ihave reached my enough.
I didn't wanna necessarilydo this in the first place.
I had hesitations about doing it.
I was perfectly happy to stay wherewe were and realize that we were no longer interested in making all the arrangements to come up here, shipping cars, bringing everything.
(49:12):
And, I said to him, Ihave reached my enough.
I should have probably listenedto myself more so, but I didn't.
But I sure am now.
Spencer (49:22):
Yeah.
And not too late.
Nancy L (49:25):
No, not too late.
Spencer (49:28):
You didn't sit there in discomfort and build up a resentment for the whole summer.
Nancy L (49:33):
No, no, no.
And that's, that's program talking.
That's program talking.
Spencer (49:39):
Well, I'm looking forward in the podcast.
I don't know exactly whenthis episode's gonna get out.
On Saturday we're flying to the WestCoast, to visit with a friend, and then going to the AA International Convention in Vancouver, and then we're going on an Alaska cruise.
I have this thought in my head that Ican actually do this while I'm traveling.
(50:00):
We'll see how that works out.
Nancy L (50:01):
Yeah.
Spencer (50:02):
Future Spencer here.
I did do some editing while I wastraveling, sitting on the balcony of our cruise ship, but I am now home and finishing this episode, so that's how that worked out.
We're definitely already scheduledto talk about steps 11 and 12.
I actually have two people to talkabout step 12 because it's got so much in it, we can do that.
(50:27):
Those will be coming.
We always welcome your thoughts.
Please join our conversation here.
Leave us a voicemail or send us an emailwith your feedback or your questions.
And Nancy, how can people sendus feedback and questions?
Nancy L (50:41):
You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5.
You can also use the voicemailbutton on the website to join the conversation from your computer.
(51:02):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, andhope, or your questions about today's topic of practicing Step 10 or any of our upcoming topics, including step 11 and 12.
If you have a topic you'd like usto talk about, please let us know.
If you would like advanced notice forsome of our topics so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at the recovery show.
Spencer (51:32):
I had an email recently from somebody who wanted to join the mailing list, and I did my normal thing with Google Groups to add them to the mailing list.
And then they emailed me a little whilelater and said, did it actually happen?
I don't see anything.
So I don't know what's going on there.
Google's supposed to send you a noticethat says you've been added to the group.
(51:57):
I tried that with anotheremail address of my own.
I didn't get any notice, soI don't know what's going on.
And the email list is sporadic, it's notlike I send something out every week.
So if you have asked to be on theemail list and you're not sure, ask again because I can look and see if you're on the list.
That's pretty easy and, and let you know.
(52:19):
Yes, you are.
Just haven't sent out anything recently.
Our website is the Recovery Show andwe have information about the show there, which is mostly the notes for each episode, wherein you will find links to the books that we read from, or mentioned, videos for the music.
(52:40):
Also there's some links to otherrecovery, podcasts and websites.
Nancy, you picked another song.
What is it?
Nancy L (52:47):
My favorite group, rascal Flats, Bless the Broken Road.
I think about the years Ispent just passing through.
I'd like to have the time I lostand give it back to you, but you just smile and take my hand.
You've been there.
You understand?
It's all part of a granderplan that is coming true.
(53:11):
God bless the broken roadthat led me straight to you.
I think this leads into a lot ofwhat we've talked about, finding hope and purpose, especially after some difficult times, some times where
we're not quite as sure as others andsuggesting that past struggles lead to a better future and a better road ahead.
Spencer (53:41):
Let's hear what you have to say.
Allen writes, I just discoveredthe show after running through all of Tim M from London's podcasts.
I really enjoyed the first fewrecent episodes I sampled, so I started at the beginning and I've worked through the first 25 or so.
I find the discussionshelpful in many ways.
I've been in Al-Anon for just over threeyears and am now just starting the steps.
(54:04):
Your wisdom and examples of howyou have approached issues and how you use Al-Anon in your lives are instructive and inspiring.
I'm amazed that you have produced somany episodes and I wish you the best.
Allen S.
Thank you for writing Allen.
And yeah, I, I'm kind of amazed howmany episodes we've produced as well.
Robin, writes.
(54:24):
Spencer, thank you for all the effortyou put into each of your conversations.
I am a devoted Al-Anonmember of a parent group.
Each night, your kind wisdom hashelped me navigate the recent loss of my husband, disappointments with my qualifier and navigating a new way forward, letting go and letting God.
Could you do a session with your wonderfulcolleagues on that particular slogan?
(54:47):
I find page 2 0 3, July 21st, in Courageto Change, particularly meaningful.
With much gratitude, Robin.
That's a lovely idea, Robin, and if youare listening and you are interested in doing an episode on this slogan, letting go and letting God, let me know and we'll set up a time to record.
(55:09):
Maureen wrote, hi Spencer.
First thank you for your service.
I started the Al-Anonprogram last October.
Our adult son suffers from multiplemental health conditions, bipolar, borderline traits, A DHD, and multiple addictions, weed, cocaine, and prescribed benzodiazepines.
My son became homeless last September,but for the last two months is serious about his sobriety and went to rehab.
(55:35):
Unfortunately, he becamemanic a few weeks later.
They asked us to pick him upuntil this is under control.
We have taken him into our home andare committed to keep him off the streets as long as he remains sober.
The psychiatrists say he is not sickenough to warrant hospitalization and the residential rehab say he is not mentally stable enough for them.
The problem is that his behavioris still causing us chaos.
(55:59):
We are using the program tools to cope,but a show specifically addressing severe mental illness while supporting your loved one's recovery, specifically keeping him safe from all the trauma he experienced being homeless, would be appreciated.
Thanks, Maureen from Montreal.
I feel like there must be at leastone episode, that's not exactly the same situation, but that shares some experience living with, dealing with, however you wanna put it.
(56:23):
A loved one with mentalillness and addiction.
But , I'm not remembering if therewas one and which one it would be.
As with many of the requests Iget, this is not something that I have direct experience with.
And so I really need the help ofsomebody who has navigated this sort of situation to co-host with me, if we're going to address this topic.
(56:47):
Again, contact me feedback at therecovery show and we can go forward.
Jackie writes, hi Spencer.
I've been listening to you since2019 when I knew I needed help, but didn't really know where to start.
My husband's drinking was out ofcontrol and my life was unmanageable.
Listening to you brought clarity and hope.
(57:07):
Then in 2020 when everything shut down,my husband decided he needed rehab.
Yay.
But that left me home alone,isolated with our four children.
I listened more.
Then after being gone for twoand a half months, he came home and drank three weeks later.
I was crushed.
I was so lost.
I looked into meetings,but everything was online.
I ended up contacting a churchmember that had moved eight hours away that I knew had done Al-Anon.
(57:32):
I asked if she would sponsor me andshe said yes, but only temporarily.
We are now on year five and going strong.
After I was in the program for threeyears, I was at an online meeting and came across a woman asking for help.
We started chatting andI became her sponsor.
I live in California andshe is on the east coast.
We have been working togetherfor two years, and it works.
(57:53):
It's essential we follow the steps, but weare flexible in our time together and how we work our program into our busy lives.
I would be open to discussing thismore if there are questions you have.
Thank you Jackie.
C
Thanks for writing with that experiencein remote sponsoring, I guess in both directions, so thanks for sharing.
Marcelle writes, dear Spencer and Company,first of all, thank you for this podcast.
(58:18):
I know you know, but you'redeeply helping so many.
I am so grateful for you.
I wrote a few months ago about arequest for an episode on dating.
When listening to episode 4 21, about stepfive, there was a voicemail from someone who asked for an episode on dating.
Because you are in a long-termrelationship that survived recovery, you said that you don't have much input.
(58:39):
This I understand.
But I ended a long-termrelationship due to addiction.
Have been in Al-Anon fora year and a few months.
My sponsor suggested that I notconsider dating for at least a year.
This seems very sane and even though I'mover a year in the program and working it fully, I feel my picker is broken.
And so not wanting to try to date, thereis no one in my life I want to date yet, but there was someone I had been attracted to for three years since we met
(59:05):
and since I was in my marriage, I avoidedthat person because it was so strange to be attracted to someone not my husband.
That had never happened inthe 25 years we were together.
So we spent some time togetherover the course of the next week, and while it awakened me to being a woman again, it was super fun.
We ended up just ghosting eachother, letting it just go.
(59:26):
We didn't talk about it.
It just felt right, and my sponsorwas glad I didn't pursue this as I was only about nine months in the program.
I was able to recognize that datingtoo soon could derail my program.
Lucky this dalliance didnot derail my program.
It helped me to realize that he was not mypeople, that's in quotes, and that I had a pattern of choosing romantic partners or spouses that were not my people.
(59:49):
So dating is a good topic.
I feel like I may not have much to offeras I'm only 15 months in the program.
I have not started datingand have no desire to either.
But I would love to hear frommore veteran Al-Anon-ers.
Thanks for all you do, Marcelle.
I got a couple of emails from Mary.
The first one she writes, your podcasthas brought me back to Al-Anon.
(01:00:11):
Thank you.
A true lifesaver.
I'm making my way through theepisodes, and I'd like to share something in response to episode 41.
Vulnerability.
Yes.
As Brene Brown points out,vulnerability can be an act of courage.
It can also be an act of self harm whenwe open ourselves up to someone who has repeatedly harmed us, pointed out our faults, our mistakes, our weaknesses.
(01:00:32):
We will be again andagain and again, hurt.
So I will offer this, we don't oweanyone, especially someone who has repeatedly harmed us, our vulnerability.
Protecting ourselves from thesepeople as an act of self-care.
Thank you.
And I'll keep coming back Mary,and thank you Mary, for pointing out that what should be but is not always obvious, thing.
(01:00:57):
When choosing to be vulnerable, it'sreally important to also consider safety.
thanks.
And then she wrote, again, I justlistened to episode 42, living Rich, Full Lives in Recovery.
And I'd like to offer this alist of simple things that are available to us from Lincoln in the Bardo by george Saunders.
(01:01:19):
So this is a list of simple things.
The text will be in the transcript,which will be in the show notes at the recovery show slash 4 36.
A Gaggle of children trudgingthrough a side-blown December flurry.
A friendly match-share beneathsome collision tilted streetlight.
A frozen clock, bird-visitedwithin its high tower
(01:01:42):
cold water from a tin jug
toweling off, one's clingingshirt post-June rain.
Someone's kind wishes for you,
someone remembering to write,
someone noticing that youare not at all at ease.
A hedge top underhand as you fleelate to some chalk-and-woodfire smelling schoolhouse
(01:02:06):
geese above.
Clover below
the sound of one's own breath when winded
the way a moistness in the eyewill blur a field of stars,
the sore place on the shouldera resting toboggan makes
writing one's beloved's name upon afrosted window with a gloved finger
(01:02:27):
tying a shoe,
tying a knot on a package,
a hand on yours.
The end of the day,
the beginning of the day,
the feeling that therewill always be a day ahead.
Loon-call in the dark
calf-cramp in the spring
neck-rub in the parlor
milk-sip at end of day.
(01:02:50):
Thanks for that, Mary.
That's a nice list.
I did manage to meet a fewof you at the AA convention.
Kathy left this voicemailabout our brief meetup.
Kathy (01:03:02):
Hi Spencer, it's Kathy.
I am leaving some feedback for youcoming over and acknowledging who you were with me at the convention.
It was so nice to see you in personafter listening to you for so many years.
I just wanted you to know how muchI appreciated it and how much it filled my heart, and after all, it was the language of the heart.
(01:03:27):
Okay, thank you.
Bye bye.
Spencer (01:03:29):
Letizia wrote, hi Spencer.
Glad we got a brief conscious contact tomeet one another while at the convention.
Hope you and your wife had a lovelyvisit and enjoyed the convention.
Loved the city.
We got lucky with greatweather during that week.
And Letizia, you're absolutelyright, the weather was great.
She put conscious contact inquotes because we met at a Al-Anon session about conscious contact.
(01:03:56):
I can't necessarily rememberall of you that I met.
It was really great to have, in somecases just a brief meet and other cases, a more extended conversation about things we had in common.
The next opportunity for meetingup with some of you would be at the Kentucky State Al-Anon convention, the weekend of September 27th.
(01:04:19):
I will be speaking that day.
We got a review on Apple Podcasts titledLike A Meeting At Your Fingertips.
I just discovered this podcast.
After listening to a few recent episodes,I went back and started at the beginning.
Great topics well presentedby thoughtful people.
A lot of Al-Anon wisdomin action in their shares.
Well, thank you for that review.
(01:04:40):
And that is it for this episode.
Nancy, I want to thank youfor joining me today for our conversation about practicing Step 10 and some of the difficulties that have arisen for us at times.
Nancy L (01:04:55):
Thank you.
I loved talking with youand being on your podcast.
I listen to it every chanceI get, I'm totally up to date on all of your episodes.
So you are very much apart of my daily life.
Spencer (01:05:09):
Thank you.
And I picked the third song, the songis, I Was Wrong by Chris Stapleton.
And again, you can listen to all threesongs at the recovery show slash 4 3 6.
I just picked up the opening lyrics here.
I've been thinking about my thoughtlesswords and I know just how much they must have hurt and I take it back, won't you let me take it back.
(01:05:34):
Maybe we need a little bit more thantaking it back sometimes, but it really expresses that I know I was wrong.
What do I need to do to make it right?
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
(01:05:55):
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
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