Embracing Spiritual Growth Through Step 11 – 438

Step 11 of the 12-step recovery program suggests that we can improve our conscious contact with a higher power through prayer and meditation. Spencer and Sara share personal insights and experiences that highlight the transformative power of this step as part of our spiritual growth in recovery. Understanding Step 11 Our conversation is structured by...

The post Embracing Spiritual Growth Through Step 11 – 438 appeared first on The Recovery Show.

Episode Transcript

Spencer (00:01):
Do you pray?
Do you meditate?
How are you improving yourconscious contact with a power greater than yourself?
Welcome to episode 438of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought toyou by Paula, Lori and Lauren.
They used the donationbutton on our website.
Thank you, Paula, Lori, and Laurenfor your generous contributions.

(00:21):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members ofalcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with theseemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our ownattitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

Sara S (00:40):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will shareour own experiences, the opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something in oursharing today that speaks to your life.

Spencer (01:01):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today.
Joining me today is Sara, and you werehere pretty recently to talk about participation as a key to harmony.
our fourth, concept ofservice on episode 433.
So welcome back.

Sara S (01:17):
Thank you for having me.
I really enjoy these conversations.

Spencer (01:21):
Today we're gonna be talking about step 11, and we'll start with reading from the book how Al-Anon works.
chapter eight, the section onstep 11, which depending what version of the book you have, is on pages 61 to 62 or maybe 62 to 63.
Step 11.
Sought through prayer and meditationto improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us, and the power to carry that out.

(01:49):
Would you like to readthe first paragraph?

Sara S (01:52):
Sure, thanks Spencer.
By the time we had taken the previous10 steps, our own experience is all the proof we need, that some power greater than ourselves is working in our lives.
We have learned that we need neverbe alone or at a loss for what to do because this power is always available to comfort and guide us.
So it is only natural that we wouldwant to take whatever actions we can to consciously improve our relationship with the God of our understanding.

Spencer (02:22):
When I look at this, I see my own experience, all the proof we need, that some power is working in our lives.
That was definitely true for me becausefairly early in starting the Al-Anon program, really within the first year, I started to see some really significant
changes in the way I lived my lifeand the way I reacted to, or didn't react to, things going on around me.

(02:47):
Really significantly in the wayin which I dealt with, I reacted to, I didn't react to, the active alcoholism that I was living with, for a while after I started in Al-Anon.
We learned that we never need to beAl-Anon or at a loss for what to do.
This power is always available.
Here's the thing, like I didn'treach out for comfort and guidance very much, at the beginning, except by reading the literature, going to

(03:16):
meetings, and working the steps . Ibelieve that I definitely got comfort and guidance from those activities.
And that my higher power, if I cansay my higher power, the higher power that I recognize, did speak to me then and continues to speak to me through those sorts of things, other people, literature, the program itself.

(03:40):
So yeah, why wouldn't I want to improvemy relationship with that higher power?
So that's what that firstparagraph is saying to me.
How about you, Sara?

Sara S (03:50):
Thanks Spencer.
yeah, I wish I would have, I guesswe don't want to wish away or change anything that's happened, but this wasn't my experience during the, my first time through the 12 steps nor the second.
and I've alluded to this before inprevious, shows we've done together.
I had a really hard timefinding my own higher power.

(04:12):
So for the first 21 years.
I did the math.
I've been in recovery for 22 years.
For the first 21 years ofrecovery, I struggled to find a God of my understanding.
I did my best.
But looking back, I can see I didn'treally feel the full impact of the program like I have in this previous year.
In the past year, actually,the past year and two months.

(04:34):
But you know, who's counting?
I have truly developed a relationshipwith a God of my understanding, and it has made all the difference.
But now this paragraph does ring truethat, why wouldn't we want to consciously improve our contact with this kind of, higher power in our life that provides the kind of guidance and love and support that my higher power does now.

(04:57):
I remember yearning for relationshipslike this when I would hear it shared in meetings, and I did my best to seek it.
But it makes sense now why I didn'tfeel the connection I wanted, because I was still trying to believe in someone else's version of God.
And to be honest, Ididn't even like that God.

(05:17):
So why would I turn mylife over to that God?
And why would I wanna improve consciouscontact with the higher power I feared?
Didn't trust and certainlydidn't think it was on my side.
But now I do have a God of myunderstanding and it is a delight to speak with my God every day, all the time.
I talk to my higher powerwhenever and wherever.

(05:38):
Recently I was talking with anAlapal about the idea that we only pray when we're in trouble.
I've heard it called foxholeprayers, something like that.
We only pray you're in the trenches.
And that God is mad at you.
We started talking about thatand that's not my experience.
That is not my God.
My God does not get mad at me orpunish me for not communicating.

(05:59):
My God is always there.
We have a great relationshipand I usually talk to my higher power every day, but do I forget?
You bet.
Sometimes I do.
Life life's and I go on vacation or Iwake up late and fall out of my routine.
But when I remember to sitdown and take quiet time, I know my higher power is there.

(06:20):
I know my higher power ishappy to see me, happy to hear from me, and happy to help me.
So now when I read, it's only naturalthat we would want to take whatever actions we can to consciously improve our relationship with a God of understanding.
I couldn't agree more.
this, I'm so relieved that I actually canhear these kinds of shares and read this kind of reading and now it applies to me.

(06:46):
So it, I got there.
It was a very circuitousroute, but I'm now there.

Spencer (06:52):
I'll continue with the next paragraph.
Prayer and meditation are the vehicleswe use for spiritual communication, but the terms, prayer and meditation mean different things to different people, and we are encouraged to interpret them in any way that works for us.
Perhaps we repeat the prayersof a particular religion, write letters to God in our own words, or simply ask a higher power for help.

(07:16):
We might set aside a half hour of quiettime and listen to our thoughts or concentrate on a pleasant image or clear our minds and focus on deep breathing.
Prayer and meditation take manydifferent forms, but they all have a common goal: to put us in better and more conscious touch with the God of our understanding, the proven source of strength, love and hope in our lives.

(07:39):
Many of us find it important to set asidetime every day to tap into this source.
What do you read in thissecond paragraph in your life?

Sara S (07:50):
For me, the word prayer had really a lot attached to it for me, because of my upbringing in organized religion.
And that word had too manyrules and too many musts for me.
like a script of what I hadto do, how I had to do it.
Like I had to be on my knees.
So I gravitated toward the wordmeditation because it felt free to me.

(08:13):
I didn't really have anythingassociated with that word.
And as earlier mentioned, for thefirst two decades, I didn't give myself permission to create my own concept of a higher power, but I still found peace in meditation.
I think it helped me because itwas a choice and I wanted to do it.
I wasn't being told to do it.

(08:33):
What I would do is justmostly sit in silence.
I don't think I was consciously eventrying to connect with anything.
I just recognized I felt better whenI slowed down and tried to listen for something besides the voices in my head.
Now that I know that, I have adifferent relationship, prayer or meditation, either one, I don't have a problem with either, either word.

(08:55):
I also use the word talk becausefor me, that's what it is.
A sponsee was asking me, how do you do it?
And I was like, sometimes I wake upin the morning and before I get outta bed, I'm just like, good morning and, just have a few gratitudes.
I often remember, want to.
Not get so irritated at red lights whenI'm stopped at a red light and I heard the idea, just, have three gratitudes or at least three is a good number.

(09:21):
It's not very many.
And what usually happens, if I rememberto do that and talk to my higher power and let them know what I'm grateful for is I forget that I'm even at a red light.
And then it goes on muchlonger than three items.
'cause that kind of redirects myentire focus while I'm in traffic.
And it's just a really nice wayto connect with a higher power.

(09:44):
yeah.
So how about you Spencer?
How has that hit you?

Spencer (09:47):
I'm with you on the word prayer.
That had a specific connotation for me.
The faith tradition, the religionin which I was raised from I think about fourth grade on, did not have formal prayer as part of its practice.
and so the association I had with thatword, I think there were two things.

(10:08):
One is the, please God, can I have a ponytype of prayer that a child might issue.
Hey, if there's a God out there,I really want this thing, can you make that happen for me please?
Thank you.
I went to Boy Scout Camp.
I was, I don't know, 15 or 16 yearsold, and they asked us to recite the Lord's Prayer, probably before meals.

(10:35):
They said we're gonna recitethe Lord's Prayer, substituting some other word for trespasses.
And I had no clue what they meant becauseI had never heard that prayer before.
So that tells you how much associationI had with prayer as a young person.
That continued wellinto my adulthood really.

(10:55):
I think the first prayer that I ran into,and I ran into it when I came to Al-Anon at the age of 46, was the Serenity Prayer.
I might've heard it before,but I never took it in.
That was the first prayerthat I actively used.
I remember a friend in a meeting oncesaying, sometimes I need to say the Serenity Prayer, like once a minute.

(11:19):
This person worked in a very highstress occupation and sometimes that's what they needed to do.
And I thought, oh, okay, so I can use thiswhenever I feel like I need it, not just when we're opening or closing a meeting.
That was the first time I reallystarted to use prayer in a sort of asking for help mode.

(11:41):
Like, you know, grant mesome serenity, please.
Grant me some courage, please.
Help me figure out which is which.
I think I had been exposedto meditation earlier.
It was not something I ever feltI was very practiced at because, I didn't practice it mostly.
And it was the clear your mind of allthoughts, kind of meditation, which just is really hard for me at least.

Sara S (12:08):
Impossible for me.

Spencer (12:10):
Yeah.
What I started to understand as Iwas in Al-Anon for longer, was that.
There's another reading thatsays, prayer is talking to God.
Meditation is listening.
That if I'm gonna listen, the main thingI have to do is make myself ready to listen, put myself in that state of mind.

(12:33):
I love what a friend of mine said.
She said, I think God is talkingto me all the time, but when I'm in a meeting, I'm actually listening.
I tend to hear the things that Ineed to hear from God out of other people's mouths in a meeting.
I thought, yeah, that is true.
it's about intention.
It's not about a particular practice.

(12:53):
I can have that intentionanywhere, anytime.
and I actually got to practicesome of that this morning.
I was getting my hair recolored,and that involves a lot of sitting and doing nothing while, the color's being painted on.
And then it's sitting there fora while to soak in and all that.
What I found was interesting, and I'venoticed this in some other contexts, was that as I was sitting there and just kind of letting whatever's going on around me, flow in, I didn't hear any, profound messages.

(13:25):
But, every now and then I would noticethat my hands had tensed up, and I had to take a breath and consciously relax them.
That attention to what mybody is doing is part of.
meditative practices that I have learned.
A lot of meditations, guidedmeditations start out with relax your toes, relax your feet, et cetera.

(13:51):
I have to keep coming back to that.
I practice that in thedentist's chair too.
I can almost remove myself what'sgoing on inside my mouth by going into this sort of meditative state of mind.
The same thing happens, I will suddenlynotice that I'm clenching my hands, which are, down in my lap, and I have to actually exhale and let go, relax.

(14:13):
and when I do that, italso relaxes my jaw.
Which is kind of important whenthe dentist's in there with whatever they're in there with.
I really feel like that's somethingthat I've learned isn't quite the word I want here, but definitely have gotten better at, after I started trying to practice meditation for recovery.

(14:34):
So it, it shows up inall areas of my life now.
, I don't necessarily put that labelon it, of prayer, meditation.
When I consciously take somethingthat is worrying me, bothering me on my mind and consciously set it aside, give it to God, let go and let God, that's a form of prayer.

(14:57):
It's sort of like, Hey,God, okay, this is yours.
whatever outcome you figureis best for it, let me know, because I'm letting go of it.
I just have these moments whenI'm consciously not putting other stuff into my head.
And that's a hard one for me.

(15:19):
I have a phone that is full ofpodcasts, so if I'm, say, walking in the woods, I can have a podcast in my ears or I can make a conscious decision to be fully in the woods.
Which, it is some form of consciousish contact, I think, because my higher power certainly includes nature, and all living things.

(15:51):
We were at the AA InternationalConvention in Vancouver a few weeks ago.
Which was a wonderfulexperience, really amazing.
Being in an arena with 35,000 people,all saying the Serenity Prayer.
if that has never happened to you.
Wow.
it never, it had neverhappened to me before.

Sara S (16:10):
It sounds incredible.

Spencer (16:12):
One of the workshops that we went to was an Al-Anon workshop titled, conscious Contact or something like that, and I was like, I want to go to this because this is a thing that I'm still trying to figure out what it means for me.
It actually was a meeting format.
I think somebody did a short lead andthen invited those of us who were sitting in there to, share if we wanted to.

(16:36):
And I had to think about that, becauseas I'm saying, I feel like maybe I'm not so good at this conscious contact thing.
I did share and I shared about unconsciouscontact and semi-conscious contact, sort of what I've been saying here.
It really let me see that I am practicingthis step, just not in the stereotypical way that some social programming inside me tells me, I quote should be practicing it, if that makes sense.

Sara S (17:05):
Yeah, actually I had a bit more as you were sharing things that popped up that I, resonated with.
on meditation, as I previouslymentioned, I had these two decades where I was pretty fenced in by my beliefs that I subscribed to this religion.
I had a hard time breaking away.
But I do remember, in meditationit has this new age, fufu idea.

(17:30):
Like that's how I saw itas, oh, you can't do that.
That's like for hippies and weirdos.
So I started to try andlike venture out slowly.
I can see this now as I lookback in almost 20 years, and it was pretty early in recovery.
but I started to try andgive meditation a chance.
And I remember telling mychildren, I would share with them whatever I was learning, in a way that was geared for children.

(17:55):
And meditation was one of them.
So I was telling them, yeah, Itried meditation and one of my kids eyes got really big and they said, do you come off the ground?
And I was like, no, that's levitatingand I don't levitate when I meditate.
But just to give you an idea of kindof the structure of what the belief system was that we were around and then, you know, I've been thinking like, why did I stick to this for 20 years when I really didn't have this connection?

(18:23):
But you were talking about cleansingyour fists and I recognized that, in myself, back in those early years.
And I didn't recognize it.
I didn't put two and twotogether until right now.
I used to go to those meetings and Iwould feel like how your body feels when the heat comes on, when you come in from the cold and you finally fully relax and you're not cold anymore.

(18:46):
And I think it was, that connectionwith my higher power that I was able to feel in the meetings because everything would relax.
like you're saying.
I also hold my breath when I amnervous or have something in my mind.
It's almost like unzipping a vestthat's tight and your body just relaxes.
That's what happened for me.

(19:07):
And I think that is what keptme going all these 20 years.
Because at the time I lived in alocation where there were a lot of meetings and I. I actually did 90 in 90, and now that I look back, I think
that's why I did, because that was theone place I could feel that feeling, not knowing it was my connection with my higher power, but my body knew.

(19:31):
So it was very, it's apowerful realization.
I can feel my voicebreaking, truly right now.
So yeah, pretty amazing.

Spencer (19:42):
I will read the third and last paragraph in this section, and we may have some other readings that take us a little further, but we'll start here.
In the past, most of us said franticprayers in the hope that God would do our will and give us what we wanted.
But our experience has shownus that our will often gets us in trouble and generally leads to disappointment in the end.

(20:04):
Most of us have learned the hard waythat the only will worth pursuing, the only guidance worth praying for is knowledge of the will of God.
Only God knows what isbest for all concerned.
So our efforts to strengthen our spirituallives focus on seeking only God's will and the power to carry that out.
For no matter how weak or uncertainwe may feel, tremendous power is available to us when we turn to the source of unlimited power.

(20:31):
With such spiritual help we can accomplishpreviously unimaginable goals, even the goal of living happy and gratifying lives.

Sara S (20:39):
Yeah,

Spencer (20:41):
Something that was really helpful to me, and it is not conference approved literature, but this is not an Al-Anon meeting, is a book by the author Anne Lamott, titled Help, Thanks, Wow
I've talked about it before, probablyback when I was reading it some years ago.

(21:02):
Notice that two of those clearly arenot asking for God to do anything,
Thanks.
Is expressing gratitude.
and you talked about the power of makinga list of things you're grateful for.
I certainly have experienced that myself.
I have often used the gratitude list asa tool for going to sleep when my monkey mind was going nuts and the hamster was running as fast as he could in the wheel.

Sara S (21:29):
Yeah, I've done that with the alphabet

Spencer (21:32):
I never got to the end.

Sara S (21:34):
No, about G. Probably I'm asleep.

Spencer (21:37):
And that is thanks.
That is the thanks prayer.
Wow for me is embodied in, to alarge extent experiencing nature.
I talked about walking in the woods.
Out in the middle of a wooded area,away from the roads, away from the highways, and experiencing the plants and animals around me, and the almost complete lack of human made noise.

(22:06):
There's, a nature area that Iwas walking in that actually is not too far away from a highway.
But when I got in there with thetrees and the leaves deadening the sound, and then maybe down in a Dell.
The traffic noise isalmost completely gone.
And what I hear is the, the cicadasgoing and the birds going, caw and tweet and whatever noises they're making, and I can just immerse myself in that.

(22:40):
Maybe you've heard theterm forest bathing.
That's what it feels like to me.

Sara S (22:44):
I lLike that term.
never heard that.

Spencer (22:46):
I think it comes from Japan, is what I've heard, but I certainly have picked it up because it is something that really helps me to let go of the tensions and the worries of daily life.
So that's the Wow prayer I mean, a sunset.
Sometimes I just step outside for a momentand I look to the west and I'm like.

(23:08):
Wow.
Wow.
Just amazing.
we took this, Alaskan cruise afterthe AA convention 'cause it was in Vancouver, so it's a good starting point for an Alaskan cruise.
One day it had been rainingpretty much all day.
And I happened to step outside rightaround sunset and there's this gorgeous orange and pink coloring the bottoms of the clouds as the sun just barely peeked through.

(23:37):
What more can I say?
wow.
The help prayer is a little harder,but to me, the Serenity Prayer is one of my main help prayers.
Sometimes I might just be like,I don't know how to do this.
I don't know what to do with this.
Help, help me figure out what to do,show me what I need to know and what I need to do and what I don't need to do.

(23:57):
'cause that's just as important.
What do I need to notdo in this situation?
So yeah, just some thoughts on,reaching out to that power greater than me for support, guidance, comfort.
And some of the waysthat I experienced that.
Because when I think about.
How do I reach out?

(24:19):
I'm still like, I feel likeI'm not doing it right.
Okay.
And I know the program tells me thereis no right or wrong way, but somehow I have this programming that says, no, you have to do this one thing.
So when I think about how I experience it,then I realize that yeah, I am doing it.

Sara S (24:36):
Yeah, that indoctrinated things, we are fed to culturally, however, wherever we are raised.
Just all the things that, that gointo forming us when we're very young.
Those are hard voices tochange or habits to break.
And I can remember that.
I was raised in a. A religion thattaught us you just pray harder, and then you'll get what you want.

(24:57):
I remember those fervent prayers, begging,crying, pleading for certain outcomes.
I just thought, if I pray hard enough,I'll get like stars for the intensity of my prayer, and then it didn't come true.
And what's the message there?
I didn't pray hard enough.
I'm not a favorite in thishigher powers vision of what, I'm not doing it good enough.

(25:20):
So that way of thinking and prayingreally contributed to a pretty toxic relationship with me and the idea of a higher power I had at that time.
But as stated earlier, I just didn'thave the courage to change it right away.
It took time.
And now I really don't even havethe words to fully express how the shift to a higher power that I love and trust has impacted my serenity, my happiness, my ability to accept whatever, if I label it good or bad?

(25:52):
I know that eventually I willunderstand and I don't need to fervently pray for my will.
When I started, Al-Anon, most ofmy relationships were really in disarray, both family and friends.
Just a lot of gossip,triangulation, competition.
It just wasn't healthy.

(26:13):
But today, I genuinely feel a lovefor every person in my family.
And this doesn't mean that everything'sperfect because it's not, or that even everyone gets along.
But what it means for me isI'm in full acceptance of who they are and how things are.
And I'm not trying to change anything.
I'm at peace.
So when I read thatline in that paragraph.

(26:36):
With such spiritual help we canaccomplish previously unimaginable goals.
Even the goal of living happy andgratifying lives, it hits me with full force because things have changed and things haven't changed, but my perception has changed and that's made all the difference.
I remember you kind of alluding to,but wow, step four must have been hard if you didn't have a higher power or a connection with one you trusted.

(27:03):
And I've really pondered that and forme, I have to have a higher power.
One that I am willing to turn mywill and the care of my life over.
Also that I'm willing to telleverything in my inventory to.
I haven't done the steps since I'vehad this connection because I've been working on the traditions and concepts.
So I'll do the steps nextyear and I'm very excited to, do them with this new God.

(27:28):
Because it has to be a God I actuallylike if I'm going to a turn over my will care of my life, tell 'em everything about myself, and then continually want to make contact with that source.
yeah, it just makes total sense to menow why I've struggled in many areas.
I just, yesterday, my parentslive close to me and that was really relationships that were just fraught with mixed emotions.

(27:55):
And I just love my parents so much now.
I can hardly wait to gosee them this Friday.
the communications, it just flows.
And all of this came, I know from buildinga real relationship with my higher power and asking daily, and not in prayer, meditation, but just my mindset is I

(28:17):
know I don't know what's best, but Iknow there's a power that does, and I can relax and let that take its course.
But then I have a relationshipwith another family member that's still really, there's not a lot of communication and I'm okay with that too.
I know it is what it needs to beand it will go where it needs to go.

Spencer (28:38):
The last sentence.
We can accomplish previouslyunimaginable goals, even the goal of living happy and gratifying lives.
So I had these evidences of a powergreater than myself that could restore me to sanity working in my life.
I had those evidences fairlyearly, because of exactly this sort of thing, accomplishing previously unimaginable goals, such as not being angry all the time.

(29:07):
Such as being able to have some serenity,some peace of mind, some happiness and joy while there was still active alcoholism creating chaos in my life.
I just could not haveimagined that was possible.
That's really where I came toa real acceptance of step two.

(29:30):
And an understanding that if I gave mywill and my life to the care of this power, that I couldn't describe, that was bringing about these amazing changes, that I really ought to do that, and I could.
I mean, step three says, made a decision.
Okay.
But the action implied by thatdecision took a lot longer for me.

(29:52):
One of the actions that I had totake, in order to turn my will and my life over to the care of this power greater than myself, was to do the steps, to do the rest of the steps.
You get to step six and you gottahave some faith in this power.
And again, that six and seven faithwas reciprocated, when I saw character defects being lessened or removed.

(30:17):
Not through my concerted effort,but through my asking for that help.
They didn't necessarily go right away.
They didn't necessarily go when Iwanted them to, but they did go.
It's, what's the term?
It's a virtuous cycle, right?
I put some faith that there isa power greater than me that can help return me to sanity, that can guide me to having a better life.

(30:43):
And I see evidence that that's working,which increases my faith, that it works.
I know faith is trust without proof.
But I'm sorry, somehow I need notnecessarily proof, I need evidence.
That's just the way, I work.
but yes.
Previously unimaginable goals.
Absolutely has happened.

Sara S (31:03):
When you were sharing about step six, about having those character defects removed.
Another thing that just cameto mind is I think sometimes they're also just transformed.
Like sometimes the tool we're usingbecause we're using it in the wrong way, it is a defect, because I've had a lot of people struggle with, I don't like that phraseology, and I was like, well, maybe think of it as transformation.

(31:26):
You know, they just helps you use itat the correct time in the right way.
And then, you do get to have theseunimaginable goals come to fruition.

Spencer (31:36):
Yeah,
You brought a couple of otherreadings and I'd like to start with this one because it connects a lot to something I said earlier.
This is from Survivalto Recovery, page 2 27.
Meditation can be described asconcentrated quiet, taking time from the most hectic schedule to relax, breathe, focus and listen can yield serenity and peace for any decision we face.

(32:05):
Meditation is not necessarilymystical or complicated.
Rather, it allows us to still the manyvoices in our head, some refer to them as the committee, long enough for a higher voice to whisper quietly to our minds.
I just love that concentrated quietand very simple directions here, okay.

(32:27):
Relax, focus, and listen.

Sara S (32:31):
And I think it's important to bring up, because I think so many people shy away from meditation specifically for what's mentioned in here.

Spencer (32:40):
Yeah.
Mystical or complicated.
Can you levitate?
Wait, no.

Sara S (32:44):
Yeah.
Do you come off the ground?
I think there's a lot of, justmystery surrounding that word.
A lot of people just put itoff as abnormal behavior.
And I think so many people don't thinkthey're doing it right or they're afraid of doing it or they have to do it cross legged, and I disagree.
I agree more with what you shared earlier,which is why I included this snippet from Survival to recovery is, your body knows.

(33:11):
It's when you relax, yourjaw's not clenched anymore.
the voices quiet down in your brain.
I think it happens when we go to meetings,it's a kind of a form of meditation.
We're sitting there, we'requietly listening to other people.
And I've heard that a lot in meetingswhere people will say, you know, I heard my higher power through a share.
That sounds like meditation to me.

Spencer (33:32):
Absolutely.
And yes, just let's bringthat out and make it explicit.
Sitting in a meeting, listening to otherpeople share is a form of meditation.
Because you are listening for the voice ofyour higher power, whether you recognize it or not, that's what's happening.

Sara S (33:51):
I completely agree.
I think exactly now, lookingback, what I felt in all those meetings, but didn't have the word for it, was I was meditating.
I was hearing from my higher power andit felt so good, which is what drove me to go to meetings and meetings because I wanted that feeling.

Spencer (34:10):
Mm-hmm.
You wanna read this sectionfrom Hope for Today?
April 28th, page 119.

Sara S (34:18):
Yeah.
I resisted the suggestion in step 11 topray only for knowledge of his will for us, and the power to carry that out.
Surely I wasn't meant totake this idea literally.
I had what I thought werelegitimate needs, desires, and concerns, hadn't I, every right to take them to my higher power.
I continued to do just that, andslowly over time a pattern emerged.

(34:42):
Praying for my will to be done, oftenled me to pain, trouble, and confusion.
I finally understood one day, as Iwas playing with my little dog, he was begging persistently to go outside.
He really, really wanted to go outdoors,just like I applied for my higher power to grant me something I really, really want.
However, some construction wasgoing on near my home and I knew my dog could easily get hurt.

(35:07):
My answer to his begging was no.
There was no way in his limitedunderstanding for him to comprehend the reason behind my decision.
So it is with my higher power inme, God sees the whole picture, whereas my knowledge of what is best for me is based on my fluctuating perceptions of my tiny world.
I love that.
another thing I think of is, when youhave a small child and you're in charge of feeding them when they're little and they want, a candy bar and that's all they want for lunch is a candy bar.

(35:37):
And you have to explain you're not gonnagive that to them, that's not healthy.
But they don't understand.
And that's how I see myself with myhigher power when I want to force my will or what I think is best.
I often want the Snickers and notthe plate of nutritious food, but in the end, the nutritious food's gonna serve me a whole lot better.

Spencer (35:58):
Yeah, I do have this experience with my dog.
There's the one where hereally wants to go out.
I let him out and hediscovers it's raining.
He comes back in and looks at melike, can't you make it stop raining?
I remember the last time this happened,he got his body outside the door, turned around and came back in.
And then five minutes laterhe is like, okay, really?
Yes, I need to go outeven though it's raining.

(36:21):
and sometimes that happens in my life.
something comes up that I don't like,I don't want it to be happening.
And I try to avoid it.
And then I realize, no,this is what's happening.
It's not quite the same thing,but it feels very similar to me.
This acceptance of what is is, ispart of letting go of my control, my desire to control every aspect of my life, I guess is the way to look at it.

(36:47):
And if I'm letting go ofcontrolling things, then you know, where am I letting go to?

Sara S (36:52):
I think that makes perfect sense.
And I have, one that I often think of,it's like to me, that my higher power is, something's being cooked in the oven, like whatever cupcakes, cake or cookies.
And my higher power is go play andI will call you when this is done.
So I have the option.
I can either wait for whatever itis I want to materialize, i.e., Cookies or cupcakes, or I can go out and play, in, in a yard.

(37:18):
We'll say if this is a, where you'rea small child, or I can just sit there and moan around the kitchen and just keep watching the oven and why isn't done keep checking it.
How much longer until they're done?
either way, the same result's goingto happen in X amount of time and my higher power's given me an option.
You can sit here and befrustrated that it's not right now that you have your cookies.

(37:41):
Or you can go outside and play withyour friends, swing in the swings, play in the yard, and trust that I will call you when they are done.
And then you can come inand enjoy them as well.
And I just don't wanna wait.
I want it now.
So as we're describing, we have to trust,I have to trust that there is a higher power who has my best interests at heart.

(38:05):
And just like you do with yourdog, you're not doing that purposefully to make your dog wait.
You know that not a good time andwe'll go out when it is a good time.

Spencer (38:14):
you can't get out of the car right now.
There's a car coming on this side.
He doesn't know, um, why he's on aleash all the time because there's so many hazards that he doesn't know.

Sara S (38:26):
That's a very good line.
Like we don't know thehazards that are out there.
Just like your dog doesn't knowwhat hazards are, but you do because you can see the whole picture, just like our higher powers do.
'cause they can see the whole picture.

Spencer (38:40):
Yeah.
Talking about waitingfor things to happen.
I planted a couple of melon plantsthis spring, cantaloupe of some sort.
We've not had real good luck withcantaloupe in the past few years, so I'm always a little anxious about them.
The plant is going nuts.
I planted them inside a cage sothat the squirrels and whatever couldn't get into them and eat the melons, which also has happened.

(39:05):
But this plant was being soexuberant, I had to take the lid off and it's just going crazy.
I got this waterfall of a melon planthappening from this planter on my deck.
I keep looking, like,are there little melons?
There's flowers?
are there little melons happening yet?
Are the little melons happening?
Are the little melons happening?
Every time I'd walk by, I'd look in,see if I could spot little melons.

(39:28):
One day I looked in andthere's softball sized melons.
Okay.
that didn't happen because I waschecking every day, you know what I mean?
They were growing slowly, andthey revealed themselves to me.
And then just yesterday, I foundone that is almost full sized.
And it's starting to develop the sortof reticulation, the netting on the outside, that you see on a cantaloupe.

(39:51):
And maybe it's starting tochange color from green.
It's hanging right there in front of me.
It just was covered up by some leaves.
And all of my looking and allof my peering and all of my trying to push things aside to see if I could spot another one.
I did not see this thing for allthe time it was growing to six inches or whatever size it is now.

(40:13):
And that happens withlots of things in my life.
Like all of a sudden I'm awareof them, and they've been there, growing, in some sense.

Sara S (40:22):
That's a great analogy.

Spencer (40:23):
now I'm ready to see them.
Now they reveal themselves to me.
That's another aspect of faith, I guess.
I have faith that I'll have cantaloupe.
I would try to wrap up here by justrepeating my, discovery, if you will, about this step, which is that I had to, and I continue to have to

(40:45):
let go of expectations about whatprayer and meditation look like, and instead recognize how those things are happening in my life.
And how they have improved myconscious contact with my higher power.
How about you?

Sara S (41:03):
I think my takeaway from our discussion and just thinking about everything we've said and read and shared, is don't make it so hard, Sara.
just don't make it so hard.
You don't have to.
You've got this amazing higherpower who's looking out for you.
Let it go, flow.
Just live on.

(41:24):
That's my takeaway.
I think I'm experiencing that.
The last three weeks of my life havejust been transformational, because I have been experiencing that.
I don't need to get upand make all these plans.
I can just connect with my higher powerand the days come and go pretty well.

Spencer (41:43):
After a short break, we will continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.
I asked you to pick music.
You came through.
What's the first one?

Sara S (41:54):
The first one is One Love by Bob Marley and the Wailers.
The reason I chose this song isit just really encapsulates what I just said is, don't make it so hard.
Let's work together.
I don't have to plot and plan and, get outthere and address people who have hurt me.

(42:15):
I just can let things, A lot of thingscan slide, how important is it really?
Some things are, but 99% of whatused to really trouble me is not.
I like all the lyrics, but the onesthat repeat themselves, that really resonate with me is one love, one heart, let's get together and feel all right.

(42:37):
Further on.
It says, let's get together and feel allright, give thanks and praise to the Lord.
And I will feel all right.
I just wanna put out therethat I would say higher power.
I did have problem with, the wordGod or that this is religious.
So when I hear this song, I justthink of it as my higher power communicating with my higher power,

Spencer (43:00):
And I'd like to note that we will have videos for all three of your songs on the website at the recovery show slash 4 3 8.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?

(43:23):
So, this week, and less intenselyfor several months, I've been preparing for a party that I'm hosting to celebrate my 70th birthday.

Sara S (43:34):
happy birthday.

Spencer (43:35):
Which kind of blows my mind.
Like, how can I be 70?
I don't feel 70.
Or maybe this is what 70 feels like.
I don't know.
There's a whole bunch ofthings that have to be done.
And they're getting done.
I ordered cakes.
I ordered some catering.
But the thing that is currently the moststressful for me, I guess, is preparing, a video montage of photographs and short video clips of 70 years of my life.

(44:05):
A lot of the people that are coming,they may have known me for a few years, they may have known me for a few decades.
My brother and sister will be there.
They're both younger, so therewon't be anybody there who's known me my whole life except me.
So, you know, what is one of thethings you do at a party like that or you do at a memorial service?
Let's do it while I'm still alive.
Thank you very much.

Sara S (44:25):
I was just gonna say that's a great idea.

Spencer (44:28):
So I'm, I'm putting this thing together and I'm trying to dig out photographs and movies that my father took when I was younger, the movies, he then transferred them to DVDs, which are somewhere in the house.
I found, this is my father, my goodness.
he has been a photographerpretty much all his life.

(44:50):
I think he said he got his first camerawhen he was five or six years old.
He had a movie camera in college,so I don't know exactly when he got that 16 millimeter movie camera.
And, he has film of my mother carryingme from the hospital to the car

Sara S (45:09):
Oh wow.

Spencer (45:11):
I think at that time they kept 'em in the hospital for a few days.
So I might've been two or three days old.
I didn't even know that existed, untilI went looking to see what he had and he had this file, said Spencer's first year.
I'm finding some real gold and I'msure there's more of this gold out there and you know what's gonna happen.

(45:32):
Of course, I'm gonna hook this up toa TV in the party space that we're renting and it's just gonna be playing and people will be glancing at it.
Nobody's gonna probably watch itall the way through, so I know I'm like stressing too much.
Okay.
And what I thought about was what Al-Anonslogans am I using to know that whatever I am able to do with this, it's enough.

(46:00):
In the script for the podcastat the beginning and the end.
It says, remember, itdoesn't have to be perfect.
And that's not an Al-Anonslogan, although it should be, you know, it really should be.
I pulled out the book and lookedat the slogans and, Keep It Simple.
Okay?
I don't have toovercomplicate this process.
What I find is what I find, I've alreadygot 50 or 60 photos and a couple of video clips like that one that I told you about.

(46:28):
Easy does it.
Okay.
Again, don't stress on it.
Don't worry about how to get everythingbecause I'm not gonna get every, if I had every, a friend of mine said, if you had one minute for every of your 70 years, it would be over an hour long.
I'm like, yeah, that's not happening.
I want it to go around a few times.
So if you miss something thefirst time, maybe you see it the second or third or fourth time.

(46:51):
so easy does it, don't overcomplicate it.
You said don't overcomplicate it.
Yeah, when you said that, I'm like, yes.
Yes.
And how important is it?
Okay.
How important is it?
Like I said, this is gonna be sortof background to the gathering.
When I think ahead to the party, whichstarts at six, probably most people will be gone by nine, maybe sooner.

(47:18):
I won't probably even get a chanceto have significant conversation with everybody who comes.
Okay.
What's important is that we're gatheringfor a purpose, celebrating a life, happens to be mine, but it could be somebody else's, with people that I know and love.
and whatever amount of time I'mable to spend with everybody who's there, has to be the right amount.

(47:46):
Those are all things that Ilearned in recovery to apply to, as step 12 has it, all my affairs.
And the next episode, bythe way, will be on step 12.
Which is one of the reasons that I includethis segment in the podcast because we get to, to look every episode at how we're using these principles in our affairs.

(48:07):
How are we experiencingrecovery in our lives?
So how are you experiencerecovery in your life, Sara?

Sara S (48:13):
It's been truly, I just don't even have the words other than transformational.
I've really come to value the practiceof putting pen to paper , or in my instance, fingers to keyboards, 'cause I like to do it on the computer.
There's just something reallypowerful about writing, journaling, deep sea diving versus snorkeling.

(48:34):
The 10th step, has got me there.
just that practice of unearthingwhat's really driving the issues.
And I just had a huge realization withinthe last four days probably that a lot of my outward behaviors, my thought processes depend on who I'm letting drive.
What do I mean by that?

(48:55):
I believe I have different selfs, right?
Like my tired self, my lonely self, myangry self, God help me, my teenager self.
But I've also decided, al-Anon hasgiven me my wise old self, the person who isn't ruled by any of that kind of anger, fear, loneliness, compulsion.

(49:17):
It's what Al-Anon teaches me.
It's what I get from a higher power.
It's when I'm connected to that higherpower is when my wise old self is driving.
I thought about that.
When I used to go to family functions,I would be so nervous and I would feel like I gotta have my exit route planned.
I have to know like three statements I'mgonna say to get out of this situation.

(49:37):
I gotta tell her my boundaries.
And I think that was okay at thetime because I was learning new tools and I needed that kind of backup 'cause I just didn't have the tools.
But also who was driving?
Fear was driving.
That, that was fear.
If I do things where I become the victim,then I'm letting my lonely self drive.

(50:00):
When I'm acting compulsive andimpulsive and doing all these things, that's usually my teenager.
So now when I stay connected to my higherpower and my wise old self is driving, I don't have to go in armed and armored.
Because I know I can rely onthat person, that part of me, to get me out there safely.

(50:24):
I have the skills.
I have a program.
I know how to detachwith a hug and a smile.
I know how to gracefully state aboundary without being offensive, because there's been lots of practice.
But also because I'm doing thiswriting, I'm doing this daily contact with my higher power.

(50:47):
So today, at least for today,my old self is driving.
And when she's behind the wheel,I feel like it's my grandma, you think of all the older people that you look up to for wisdom.
They're not compulsive.
How important is it?
A lot has registered as they age.
So that's been my bigaha, is I can trust myself.

(51:09):
I just entered into a new relationship.
There's lots of excitement, butthere's also like, oh, what if I don't like him when we meet?
Or what if I like him too much?
And I was starting to go,all these kind of get crazy.
I'm like, no, you're okay.
Because your wise old self is driving.
Stay connected to your higher power, doyour writing, and you will intuitively know what to do in any given situation.

(51:32):
So long as I've got those boxes checkedthat I'm not forcing my will, I'm not trying to manipulate an outcome.
I'm just, as I've said, goingwith the flow and trusting that my higher power is there to guide me.

Spencer (51:47):
Thank you for that.
What's coming next on the podcast?
I already said step 12.
I actually have two episodes planned forstep 12, from different aspects of it.
We welcome your thoughts.
You can join our conversation.
If you're thinking about sharingsomething on step 12, think about this.

(52:08):
Have you had a spiritual awakening?
Step 12 says, we will, ifwe've done the other steps, how are you carrying the message?
I think you can do that.
Even if you're not up to step 12.
How are you practicing theseprinciples in your life?
Again, I think that's something that wecan do as soon as we start understanding, wait a minute, what are these principles?

(52:29):
What do you think these principles are?
So leave us a voicemail or send us anemail with your experience, strength, and help your feedback, your questions.
And Sara, how can people do that?

Sara S (52:40):
You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show.
Or if you prefer, you can call and leaveus a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5.
You can also use the voicemailbutton on the website to join the conversation from your computer.

(53:04):
We would love to hear from you,share your experience, strength, and hope, or your questions about today's topic of step 11 or of the upcoming topics, including step 12.
Also, if you have a topic you'dlike us to talk about, let us know.
If you would like advanced notice forsome of the upcoming topics, so that you can contribute to that topic.

(53:26):
You can sign up for our mailinglist by sending an email.
To feedback at the recovery dot show,and if you put email in the subject line, that makes it a lot easier to spot.
Spencer, where can our listeners findout more about the recovery show?

Spencer (53:42):
that is our website, which is, if you haven't already guessed, it's the Recovery dot Show, where we have information about the show, which is mostly the notes for each episode.
Those notes now from, I forgetwhich episode I started doing this sometime in the last maybe 10 episodes, maybe not quite that many.

(54:02):
Now has transcripts embeddedright in the notes, in a section you have to expand to read them.
there will be links to the booksthat we read from, or talked about, videos for the music that we chose.
And also there you can findlinks to a couple of other recovery podcasts and websites.
We'll take, a short break before divinginto the mailbag and our second musical selection, which is available on the website at the recovery show slash 4 3 8.

Sara S (54:31):
My second song is, Life is Better With You by Michael Franti.
and this, I think, since it's so new forme to have this relationship with a higher power, these lyrics, really, mean a lot to me when I align it with my higher power.
And some of the lyricsthat really hit me are:
Some days are better than other days,but these days, life is better with you.

(54:56):
Whoa, I'm not afraid to be alone.
But being alone is better with you.
Life is better with you.
And then it continues with the chorus.
Whoa, whoa.
Life is better with you.
And that's just how I feel.
I used to be so afraid to be alone.
I think I was grasping for relationshipsbecause of that with either romantic people or otherwise, just friends.

(55:19):
And it's been amazing to know Idon't have to experience any of that because as long as I have a higher power, I'm really not alone.

Spencer (55:29):
I'm gonna add a song here.
this is a song I've been wanting touse on the podcast for a while, and I think this is a good place to use it.
The song is titled GodPerson, it's by Madi Diaz.
Here's a few of the lyrics,
back row of the room.
I show up alone.
I come here to watch other peopleknow what I can only guess at 'cause I'm never sure, and I don't like commitment if there's something more.

(55:53):
Just that opening, verse I think capturesfor me, like the initial experience of coming to an Al-Anon meeting, of hearing the experience of other people about things that maybe I've never thought of or I'm having trouble believing.
and I don't like commitment.

(56:13):
The chorus.
I'm not a God person.
but I'm never not searching, lookingat the sky, staring at the ocean.
If there's something toknow, then I wanna know it.
I wanna hold it.
I wanna feel it.
Maybe I can't say thatI'm not a God person.
When I heard that song, it really capturedmy experience with, as some people of my acquaintance call it the G word.

(56:43):
For years and years and years, I was nota person who used that word at all, who had a meaning in my life for that word.
But I'm never not searching.
Maybe I can't say that I'mnot a God person, you know?
It's like, how do I experiencethis, in my life now.

Sara S (57:02):
Yeah, that resonates with me.
It really does.

Spencer (57:13):
I love hearing from you.
I got a letter from Drew who writes,Hello, I only found your show last Friday.
Thank you so much for doing this.
I have enjoyed the several episodes Ihave listened to so far and plan to attend my first Al-Anon meeting this Thursday.
It recently became known to me thatmy 19-year-old son is an alcoholic and addicted to opioids as well.

(57:35):
There has been a history ofsubstance abuse for four years now, but I don't think either of us realize the extent until recently.
He did not complete high schooland has bounced around in living situations for three years now having many jobs, but most less than a month with long periods of not working.
He did say he wanted to get sober andmade it four days, but then an episode happened and he was admitted on a 72 hour psych hold for suicidal threats, third time this year, while under the influence.

(58:03):
I'm also reading the book Unhooked andtrying to gather all the information I can as this is new territory for me.
I am struggling most with how to helphim and what boundaries to set up.
I don't feel he can live with me at thispoint with how untrustworthy he has been.
I have his two younger siblings 50% of thetime, and I don't feel comfortable anymore with him at my house when I'm not there.

(58:24):
He's currently in a short term optionat his girlfriend's mom's apartment.
This is the last short termoption he has not expended.
But how is he going torecover without a stable home?
I don't wanna make this too long,but I was wondering if there are certain episodes or books you would recommend for my situation.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

(58:45):
I wrote back to Drew withsome episode suggestions.
In particular, episode 3 95, therelationship between mother and Son, A Son's Addiction Number 3 55.
Debra C. Hands Off pays off Number3 22, Parents of Teen Alcoholics and addicts Number 2 54 and the episode 65 titled Hope Includes a conversation with a mother of an addict.

(59:14):
You can find each of these episodes onthe website by going to the recovery show slash the number of the episode.
I always recommend the book HowAl-Anon works, which is available from many booksellers, also at Al-Anon meetings and from the Al-Anon online bookstore at Al-Anon dot org.
Look under members and literaturein the menu at the top.

(59:38):
As to what boundaries to set up,that is always a hard question and something that you really have to answer for yourself, unfortunately.
I do agree that I would not feel safewith such a person being in a home with two younger siblings unsupervised.

(01:00:00):
I totally agree on that one.
And how is he going torecover without a stable home?
I have listened to hundreds,at least, of AA speaker talks.
It seems that sometimes it requiresnot having a stable home to bring a person to wanting, really wanting and following through on finding recovery.

(01:00:23):
May or may not be the case for your son.
I don't know.
A listener wrote, dear Spencer, Ijust listened to podcast number 4 28 and could hardly believe my ears.
My story is so similar to Heather's.
My family completely fellapart five years ago.
I've had very little contactwith my siblings since then.
I have felt a painful voidsince then, even though the choice to disconnect was mine.

(01:00:48):
I have been disconnected from mymother for approximately a year.
She's 91 years old, and I knowthat her health is failing.
I've recently had a desire toreconnect with her, but because of the behaviors that are so similar to what Heather described with her mother, I am fearful about doing so.
I wondered if it would be possible foryou to forward this email onto Heather.
I would love to talk more with herabout her experience, strength, and hope in regards to this situation.

(01:01:12):
And I did forward her email to Heather,and Heather said she would get in touch and I'm out of the way, so I assume that happened, but I don't know.
We've got some responses to the episode.
Is Al-Anon really for men?
Bill D writes to Patrick and me.
Hi Patrick.
Thank you for sharing this podcast.

(01:01:34):
As I listened to you and I wishSpencer had allowed more time for you to speak, I wondered whether it is the relational aspect of Al-Anon that makes it inherently more feminized.
I think you did an excellent synopsisof the anonymous author's opinion, especially emphasizing, correctly from a scientific perspective, that it was n equals one and therefore not necessarily representative of other men's opinions.

(01:01:56):
I really liked youreditorial term neutered out.
I like the fact that you and Spencernever arrived at a definitive answer to the question, which leaves the question open for discussion.
It is still somewhat of a mystery to meregarding the prevalence rates of DSM dash five dash TR alcohol use disorder.
A term that neither I nor the WorldHealth Organization likes, because most of us in the field prefer ICD 10 and ICD 11, distinction between alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence.

(01:02:27):
It is about 60% men and 40% women.
However, because of the interactiveeffects of testosterone and other factors, male alcoholics certainly contribute to the greatest amounts of alcohol related violence.
On the other hand, women seem to havewhat in the clinical literature is referred to as a telescoping phenomenon in which they progress faster between the first drink and first drunk, first

(01:02:50):
drink and entrance into a treatmentprogram, and especially a faster progression of alcohol related medical problems such as cirrhosis and cancer.
Men who have alcoholic fathers alsoseem to have a more severe variant of alcohol dependence, giving rise to the concept of gamma alcoholism.
This is one of Jellinek's fivetypes of alcoholism, although most researchers do not find much evidence of these discreet types.

(01:03:16):
In the US, gamma alcoholism has alsobeen referred to as AA alcoholism because its typology is similar to the stories in the big book of AA.
I strongly agree with your statementthat it is easier to be accepted at an AA meeting than at an Al-Anon meeting.
A woman in Al-Anon told me a few years agothat she quit coming to Al-Anon because, quote, there's no compassion there.

(01:03:38):
End quote.
I was initially defensive,but before I even spoke, I realized that I agreed with her.
I've been to many open AA meetings wherethere seems to be much more compassion.
Even AA jokes talk about anAl-Anon relapse involving five minutes of compassion.
I also reflected on the fact thata few hours ago I declined being a speaker at an Al-Anon workshop.

(01:03:59):
My first reaction was that speakingat the workshop, there would be mostly women, and that I would probably inadvertently say something that was objectionable to someone.
It may be more my fear thananything else, but I never hesitate to speak at regular meetings.
Thanks, bill for your, your feedbackon that and your deeper dive into, what the medical profession understands about alcoholism and, adding some of your own personal experience.

(01:04:28):
Also, got a letter from Stacey who writes,
hi Spencer.
I'm a longstanding member of Al-Anon,19 years, who is married to a male member of Al-Anon, and I recently listened to your conversation with Patrick, who's also a personal friend.
I have some feedback about the episode.
It treats Al-Anon inisolation from a larger issue.
Here's my response.

(01:04:49):
Across the board, women are more likelythan men to seek support, whether through therapy, medical care, or spiritual community, though some of these patterns are beginning to shift.
In the realm of mental health,women consistently seek treatment at significantly higher rates than men.
As of 2019, 24.7% of women receivedsome form of mental health care, therapy, medication or both, compared to just 13.4% of men.

(01:05:16):
And Spencer here doing some math.
That's almost twice therate, women over men.
By 2022, that gap persisted with roughly27 to 28% of women and 13 to 16% of men receiving mental health care.
Even among those diagnosed with mentalillness, only 40% of men received care compared to 52% of women.

(01:05:40):
These disparities reflect ongoingstigma and cultural expectations that discourage men from expressing vulnerability or seeking help.
The gender gap is also clearin general medical care.
Studies show that women are about 33%more likely than men to seek outpatient medical services, and men are three times more likely to have gone an entire year without seeing a doctor.

(01:06:01):
Women engage more frequently inpreventive care and routine checkups, contributing to better early detection and outcomes, while, men often delay care until conditions become acute.
When it comes to spiritual engagement,the numbers are more nuanced.
Historically, women have attendedchurch more frequently than men, with global Christian attendance showing 53% of women attending weekly compared to 46% of men, in the US that pattern held for decades until recently.

(01:06:29):
According to a 2024 Barna study,for the first time in modern history, 30% of American men reported weekly church attendance, slightly surpassing 27% of women.
This may reflect broader socialshifts, generational change, or the appeal of certain church communities to specific male identity narratives.

(01:06:49):
In summary, bullet points here.
One.
Women are significantly more likelyto seek therapy and medical care.
Two.
Women have traditionallybeen more involved in church, though US trends are shifting.
Three.
Men consistently underutilized supportsystems, emotional, physical, and sometimes spiritual due to cultural norms that associate help seeking with weakness.

(01:07:13):
The gap isn't just aboutbehavior, it's about permission.
Who gets to ask for help?
Who gets to be seen as vulnerableand what kinds of discomfort we're taught to endure in silence?
Understanding these patterns isn't aboutblame, it's about awareness, because healing in any form requires access, and access begins with acknowledgement.
I found your comments about men beingleaders, extremely dated and inaccurate.

(01:07:37):
I was a female CEO for 35years in a men's industry.
Women lead where they feel they canand have had to put themselves out there through enormous resistance, shaming, and outright sexism from men in leadership roles.
We got a thicker skinand stayed the course.
Is Al-Anon for men?
Sure, just like CEOship is for women.
But men need to give each otherpermission to avail themselves of it and stop blaming the institution and women for not being like them.

(01:08:02):
Show up.
Take what you like, leave the restand do the work on any resentments.
Women have done it for yearsand ultimately it works.
PS. I know over 50% of my sponseeshave been sexually assaulted, most often raped by male family members or members of the clergy.
Men might want to keep that in mindwhen women are not so keen to hug them.

(01:08:23):
It isn't about the man,it's about their history.
Maybe have some compassion forwhat they have experienced.
Most men in Al-Anon.
Give me a quick, no bodytouching hug for that reason.
Stacey.
I wrote back to Stacey.
I said thank you for your thoughtfulresponse to our conversation, and in particular for broadening the scope.
I will note that the 2024 Al-Anonmembership survey reports 11% male, which is significantly lower than the numbers for therapy or church attendance.

(01:08:50):
For what that's worth, given thatparticipation in the survey was self-selected and not random.
Clearly Patrick's and my experienceand our language is colored by our generational upbringing.
I was born in the mid fiftiesand I believe Patrick's a little bit older than me.
I'm not positive.
I would be interested to hearfrom younger men on this topic.

(01:09:10):
As a side note, maybe, one of my meetingshas recently gained several male members, to the point where one time, all of the in-person attendees were men.
There was a woman online.
And a woman walked into the rooma little bit late, I think it was her first time at that meeting.
And she said, is this a men's meeting?

(01:09:30):
And we said, no, it's not.
And it just happens tobe mostly men right now.
You're welcome.
please come in.
But, I think that speaks to an expectationthat Al-Anon tends to be mostly women.
If I walked into an Al-Anon meeting,it was all women, I wouldn't say, oh, is this a women's meeting?
That particular demographic would bemeeting my assumptive understanding.

(01:09:53):
It was kind of funny.
and I'm also encouraged that thatparticular meeting, since the pandemic has been probably about 50% men.
It was a small meeting, and as we'regrowing, we seem to be growing with more men than women, which is interesting.
I don't know what it means.
I also got an anonymous voicemailfrom a man who is encouraging me to do a sort of a part two episode, tentatively titled Al-Anon is for Men.

(01:10:24):
And he offered to participate in it.
I'll probably be working on puttingthat together in the next few months.
I got a review in Apple Podcasttitled A great resource.
I have been listening to the RecoveryShow podcast for years now, and appreciate it as another resource for my recovery.
I print the business cardsavailable on the website and share them outside of meetings with my sponsees and other Al-Anon members.

(01:10:49):
Thank you to all her participate inthe podcast from Janice in Colorado.
And yeah, I haven't mentioned the businesscards, which are an excellent way to, to share the podcast with friends.
You could print it out on a normalsheet of paper and just cut it up.
Or, if you happen to be printing businesscards on your printer for other reasons, it is designed for Avery 88 71 business card stock I need to update those.

(01:11:14):
They have some outdated information.
The basic information about thepodcast is still good though.
So thanks Janice for me mentioningthat and reminding me of them.
And that's it for today.
Talk to you again soon.
Sara, thank you so much for joining metoday for our conversation about step 11.
it has really opened up some thoughtsfor me and, hopefully for you as well.

Sara S (01:11:39):
Yes, thank you, Spencer.
I always enjoy, our conversations.

Spencer (01:11:43):
And you got one more song for us.

Sara S (01:11:46):
I do, imagine by John Lennon, not a new one, I'm sure for many people.
But this encapsulates for me, not onlyconnection and contact with my higher power, but also what Al-Anon has meant to me and what I feel in Al-Anon actually.
specifically these lyrics.

(01:12:06):
Imagine all the people living for today.
Imagine all the people livinglife in peace , imagine all the people sharing all the world.
You may say I'm a dreamer,but I'm not the only one.
I hope someday you will join usand the world will live as one.
And to me that's, it's apie in the sky type of song.

(01:12:29):
I understand that.
But that has really beenmy experience in Al-Anon.
I do feel like I learned howto live as one there with the steps, traditions, and concepts.
And just a plug for thetraditions and concepts.
I overlooked those monumentallyin my first 20 years and they've made all the difference for me.

(01:12:52):
This whole program reallydelivers the life I want to live.

Spencer (01:13:01):
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you'refacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.