March 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Grief is an inevitable and multifaceted part of life that can touch us in many ways, far beyond the loss of a loved one. In this episode, we explore how the principles and tools of recovery can help us find relief from grief by accepting change, embracing emotional growth, and connecting deeply with others. Understanding...
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(00:00):
How can the principles and tools ofrecovery help us find relief from grief?
Welcome to episode 429 of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Brandon,Maureen, Janet, Ray, Alison, and Dorothy.
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you Brandon, Maureen, Janet, Ray, Alison,and Dorothy for your generous contributions.
(00:23):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show,we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
(00:50):
And during this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today and joining me today andproviding the topic for today's discussion is Eric.
Welcome back to the recovery show, Eric.
(01:12):
Good morning, Spencer, for the umteenth, as we said.
42, 43, something like that.
We want to open with a reading that you chose.
the reason I chose this, look, there's no coincidences.
If you believe in that, I certainly do.
just literally two weeks ago after a major event in my life,in the you are not alone morning, 7 30 a. m. daily meeting.
(01:39):
one of the members suggested starting a study group.
Using that book, Opening Our Hearts, TransformingOur Losses, which is really about loss and grief.
As fate would have it.
We've had about four meetings, and it's like every pageis just speaking to me, so I'll start with this one.
(02:01):
This is from pages 98 99, OpeningOur Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.
Relief.
When her husband died, one member wassurprised to feel a profound sense of relief.
It meant I would be free, freerthan I'd been in our life together.
Unquote.
One man was relieved to know that his wife isno longer suffering in the grips of the disease.
(02:26):
A parent shared, quote, I'm not sure my son wouldhave found peace on this earth, but I am grateful he didn't leave behind a wife or a child who would have to go through the pain of his alcoholism.
Many of us are surprised to feelrelief when the alcoholic dies.
Such feelings of relief can often lead us toquestion whether something is wrong with us.
(02:51):
If we feel relief , we wonder.
Does it mean that we are glad the alcoholic is gone.
Those who don't understand the disease of alcoholismmay criticize or misjudge us, assuming our feelings of relief mean we didn't love the alcoholic.
For fear of being perceived as callous, wemight hesitate in admitting our feelings of relief, even to other fellow Al Anon members.
(03:14):
We may worry that our feelings are unique,and that no one will be able to understand us.
If we take the risk to share about what we're feelingwith our sponsor or other Al Anon members, we may find that we're not the only ones to experience these emotions.
Our feelings of relief don't meanwe didn't love the alcoholic.
(03:36):
Perhaps our relief is a sign of ourcompassion for one who is no longer suffering.
Perhaps we're relieved that we ourselves have been set free.
Oh,
Powerful.
Mutual sigh.
Yeah.
and I identify with this feeling of relief.
At the deaths of my parents who had been sufferingfrom dementia, not alcoholism, but that is also a disease that takes our loved ones and changes them.
(04:07):
My father, by the end of hislife, was totally uncommunicative.
He had lost words.
He couldn't form words anymore.
And the thing that I don't know is,what was going on inside him, you know?
My mother, when he died, herfeeling was what's the point anymore?
(04:31):
So I feel like they were both relieved of a burden, relievedof pain, and to be honest, so were we as caregivers.
it doesn't mean I didn't grieve their passing, you know?
So this passage speaks to me about that experience.
how about you, Eric?
(04:53):
Well, we're gonna lean intosomething that's incredibly painful.
Which if this is for me right now, as I texted you,I wasn't sure I could get through this episode today.
My grief is not about death of a loved one.
It's about, forcible detachment.
what I mean by that is, she was arrested fordisturbing the peace, trying to get into my home in the middle of the night, banging on the door, clearly under the influence, and arrested.
(05:22):
The court, put an order of protection on me,that limits her from accessing my property.
She's not permitted to come on the property.
I can still talk to her.
There'll be another hearing with the judge where thismight be modified and it might even be modified sooner.
Which I, again, I am on the fence about.
Because honestly, for the last two weeks,since she's been unable to come here, I've had an enormous amount of relief and serenity.
(05:50):
This is your daughter?
Yeah, my daughter.
My daughter, who I love and adore with all myheart, is, suffering from the grips of not only, self medication, I'm sure, but alcoholism as well, and a lot of depression and suicidal ideations.
This would be a completely different episode if itwere regarding suicide or death, but they all apply.
(06:14):
And it's whatever we lose, maybeit's the loss of our dreams.
We're grieving the loss of our dreams, and that wasa huge topic for me when I first came in, the loss of our dreams and the grief associated with that.
The fairy tale that I had made up and planned for andbuilt my life around and anticipated wasn't meant to be.
(06:36):
I used to call it fractured fairy tales.
So it can also be about someone finding sobriety.
The grief has been relieved, canbe, if someone finds sobriety.
There's lots and lots of ways to look at thistopic, so I thought it might be worth a deeper dive.
Oh sure.
yeah, there's just a lot, there's a lot to it, andthe more I look, the more I see, and you know me, if I'm feeling something that is uncomfortable, as my higher power would say, if I hadn't made you uncomfortable, you wouldn't have moved.
(07:08):
I'm trying to move.
On top of all that, she, came down with a lung infectionon Tuesday morning, and I was called to pick her up, and she was, I don't want to get too graphic, but it was very unpleasant, she had an abscess, it turns out, she's still
in the hospital today, after Tuesday and four or five daysof them running every test node, it appears to be, a lung infection, That is most likely, going to require surgery.
(07:37):
So that'll probably be four to six weeks from now.
The question now is, should I permit her to come home?
And, boy, this is a really tough little seesaw that I'm on.
You know, give up my, relief that I'm, feeling now.
to invite her back home and see how it goes.
So I don't want to go on and on.
We have a lot more to get to, but I justthought I'd throw those things in there.
(08:01):
Yeah.
backstory about why I came to thispowerful suggestion about this topic.
When I've looked at this topic before, and I don'tremember if we've done grief as a topic directly, I certainly have talked about it, in the context of my parents and their ends of their lives, but I don't know if we've done it as a full topic.
(08:27):
I should have looked.
One of the key things that the book Opening OurHearts, Transforming Our Losses, illustrates, Is that grief comes from many different sources and I just want to actually, read the chapter titles, because that helps to clarify that idea.
(08:48):
The chapters are grief as a process, living withthe family disease of alcoholism, loss of the dream, grieving for our childhood, loss in relationships, and Death of a loved one, dealing with our feelings, taking care of ourselves, and spiritual growth from grieving.
So at the beginning it's talking about someof the things that we might be grieving, and I think loss of the dream is a big one.
(09:16):
You get into a relationship with somebody or youhave a child and you have, particular, I'll say expectations, dreams about how that's going to evolve.
Sometimes life doesn't go in the directionthat we think it's going to or we think it ought to and we can grieve that.
It's not until chapter six that we get to death.
(09:38):
The final chapters, seven throughnine are really about how we recover.
. It's a solid book.
Anyway, I could say there was some griefwhen my kids went off to college even.
Like, okay, they're, this is not necessarily true, butit felt oh, we're not going to have them at home anymore.
I grieved when I realized that a hobby that I'd beeninvolved in for, a couple of decades was no longer fulfilling me and that I needed to move on from that.
(10:09):
And I grieved when my parents died, there's been a lotof people in my life that have died by the time you get to almost 70 years old, usually there's some people that have died, that you loved, but it's not just death.
I'll stop now.
but you know this question likewhat griefs have I experienced?
Well, those are a few of them.
Yeah, I don't think it's a mistake that theychose growth from grieving as the last chapter and that's really what we're here for, what our program talks about is growing from things that are uncomfortable and that are painful, AFGO, right?
(10:44):
Another F in growth opportunity.
the order of protection, I've sharedproblems in other episodes with you, but.
In the midst of my ex, the mom, mother of mydaughter's, grips of her and height of her alcoholism, I've had four of those issued by a marshal to her, even while we were still married, and then while we were living together but not married, and probably thereafter, when she had the girls living with her.
(11:13):
I got issued by the court without much effort,but they didn't call it an order of protection.
no
same exact document, a restrainingorder, an order of protection.
It's the exact same document, which is theone I had served to her three, four times.
The fifth time she wasn't able to beserved because she fled to a sober house.
(11:36):
The third version is called relief from abuse.
Those were the ones that I had issued to her.
And that's what we're going to talk about.
how in our program, what tools canwe use to find relief from grief?
I put down a couple of the slogans that Ithink we would do well to carry those around if we're in that position of grief and relief.
(12:01):
I think the ones I put were one day at a time.
PISO, pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Let go and let God, just for today,detachment, one day at a time.
And I wrote, if I don't share it, I'm gonna wear it.
reach out, reason out, talk it out, get it out.
The only way through is out.
You mean the only way out is through?
(12:21):
I'm sorry, the only way how, what did I say?
You said the only way through is out.
The only way out is through.
Yeah, but who said the only way out is through?
Spencer,
I don't know.
click on the link I sent
it's attributed to Robert Frost, but then somebodyelse says, no, it's in Dante's Inferno, part of the Divine Comedy from the 12th century.
(12:46):
Dante looks into hell and he says, there's no way back.
And he says, how did they get out?
And Virgil says, the way out is through.
you go, the only way out is through.
And you've heard it, it's probably one of our readers.
when going through hell, keep going.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And same idea.
Absolutely.
How about that?
(13:08):
You mentioned some things we got right.
we got, shares from some of the listeners.
I think I want to start with this one from Pam.
My name is Pam and I've been inAl Anon for six and a half years.
I've been grieving over the past year as mybeautiful sister passed away in January 2024.
She had problems with drinking on and off foryears, but I was hopeful that the next time that she went into rehab would be her last.
(13:33):
However, that wasn't meant to be.
I have relied heavily on the program tohelp me get through my sadness and anger.
It has been really hard as she and I were really close.
I've attended more meetings this past year, got asubscription to the Forum Magazine, increased my service, and made some new friends through the program.
In addition, my wonderful sponsor and I havebeen working through, on a weekly basis, the book Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.
(13:57):
This book has really helped me so much to validateall of the feelings that I have over losing my sister.
I'm working on finding serenitythrough my grief, one day at a time.
Thank you for your service.
It has been so helpful over the years.
Thank you, Pam, for sharing that.
and again, the book comes up.
(14:18):
There's a lot of heavy sighs during this episode, right?
this is very sigh worthy.
Yeah, no kidding.
I got one, if you don't mind, I'll read on toanother share from Molly F. up here in Connecticut.
She said, when I'm experiencing anticipatorygrief, it is helpful to recognize it for what it is.
(14:39):
This awareness alone is helpful.
Then I work to remind myself that I need to trustthe process, accept the unknowing of what, when, and how, and instead meet my loved one or myself in the moment with trust, presence, gratitude, and love.
When I think about observing someone at the endof life, or actually passing, I try to think of it as a birthing process to a new form.
(15:04):
That was helpful to me.
I noticed how strong the spiritwas, as if it was fully present.
But the physical body was simply tired, sick, weak, fading.
I also believe that the spirit remains and that I willstill have connection with my loved one who has passed.
What has helped me with my grief is my abilityto communicate with loved ones who have passed.
(15:30):
To ask for signs.
And then notice when I'm hearing, seeing, experiencing.
It's been both subtle and awe inspiring,and has strengthened my faith.
I also believe there are no just,quote, X amount of stages of grief.
To me, grief is like a wave.
It comes and goes.
(15:50):
Sometimes I welcome it, and other times mytendency is to resist, or try to control it.
That awareness reminds me to allow and breathe into it.
Finally, one of the most valuable lessonsI've learned from grief is how it builds compassion and connection with others.
When I experienced the passing of loved ones, I feltas if I had joined a club I didn't want to be part of.
(16:16):
At the same time, I'm grateful to be in that grief club.
Because it is part of life and becausethe compassion does connect us.
Wow.
Thanks, Molly.
yeah.
Thanks, Molly.
And she talks about grief as a wave.
It comes and goes.
In the book, page 14, there's a sectiontitled The Recurring Nature of Grief.
(16:40):
It talks about little things and how littlethings build up and then, suddenly overwhelm us and I've definitely had that experience as well.
The other day I was looking at a photographan old photograph and wondering You know, who are these people in this photograph?
And I realized there is nobody left inmy life that I can ask that question to.
(17:05):
It's just this little upwelling of grief.
I have tried to let myself feel.
When something comes up, just feel itfor however long I need to feel it.
Molly talks about sometimes resisting ortrying to control, and that probably happens.
but what I've found for me is that if I letit come, if I let myself feel it, it usually goes away quicker than if I try to control it.
(17:32):
You know?
What happened to me two weeks ago, right after Irealized that my daughter had been arrested and spent the night in jail, the sergeant, from the police department called and said, is she okay coming home?
and this was the morning afterall this craziness was going on.
(17:52):
And at that moment, I guess I just said, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
she woke up everybody in my six unit complex, andmy landlord called me, and the police were here.
And, 1.
32 in the morning.
She got charged with disturbing thepeace, which is a very serious offense.
I never really Realize how serious that is.
That's a criminal offense.
(18:14):
and I guess I said to the officer in my fog and, confusion,chaotic, unclear thinking, maybe it was clear, maybe it was my higher power doing for me what I couldn't do for myself.
I said, no, I'm not okay with her coming home today.
And so then they went and issued this order of protection.
And then for the next three days, I fellall the way back down the ladder, Spencer.
(18:39):
I went back to step one.
Did I cause this?
Did I contribute to this?
What could I have done differently?
Yeah, I started blaming myself.
I was curled up on the couch for six hours.
in grief, in total grief.
What have I done?
is this punishment?
Is this self care?
It was just a goulash of mixed feelings and emotions.
(19:02):
And finally, one of my best friends in program called me.
She knew what was going on.
She said, get in the car and meet me here.
And we went up to spend four hours at ameditation center here in Connecticut.
and there was a guy, that was here fromAustralia with a guitar and a woman on a keyboard doing chants and mantras and, incense.
(19:29):
There were about 20 people in the room.
and the guy was looking at me a few timesbecause he could see I was in a very bad place.
He walked over to me at one pointand said, Let this shit out.
Don't leave here with what you got inside of you.
Let it go.
Don't drive home with that baggage.
Don't drive out of here with those rocks.
(19:51):
And I let it fucking go, man.
seldom do I mean, I do cry often.
I was blessed and cursed with a huge heart.
That sometimes, feels, like the Grinch, justbursting at the seams sometimes with love.
But other times it feels like a curse.
Why do I have to feel so much, I want totry to live in the middle, and balance these things and that's what we have these tools for.
(20:16):
That's why I reached out.
Someone reached out to me.
I used the program.
I went and I did meditation and prayer.
I felt so much relief the day after that.
those feelings used to do lingerand fester and, arithmetically grow.
When I had no tools, they would get worse and worse untilthey cascaded, as we've said before, like a migraine.
(20:38):
When you feel a headache coming on andyou've suffered from migraines, do something.
Don't just sit there.
In this case, get up, move a muscle, do a reading,call somebody, pick up that thousand pound cell phone, call, reach out, go for a walk, read something, do some prayer and meditation, and ask for help.
So I was in despair and sadness, And what my daughtersaid a few days later, Why did you have to call 9 1 1?
(21:05):
Why didn't you call 2 1 1, which is a welfare check?
She said, Dad, if I'm actingsuicidal, call 2 1 1, not 9 1 1.
She volunteered that.
But the other part of it was she'd left the house,I think, under the influence, driving a car.
So I told her, if you're intoxicated or impairedand get behind the wheel, I'm calling 9 1 1.
(21:27):
If I feel that you're a danger to yourself because you'rehaving suicidal thoughts, yes, I agree, I will call 2 1 1.
And that, that little distinction, it actually helped.
And, if it happens again where I feel that she's in someimmediate peril physically to herself about self harm, of which there have been more than a dozen attempts, thank God, every one of them went down to the wire.
(21:51):
I have another tool and I called 2 1 1 a fewdays later and described everything that was going on and they said we're here if you need us.
If you feel that you need help,we'll dispatch a team to your house.
If she's in danger, we will put her in a car.
So I've learned, I, what do we learn from grief?
there it is.
There's the last chapter.
(22:11):
I just learned another way, instead of, 9 11, there's an alternative, and she has agreed.
It's just amazing.
I found some growth in this.
yeah, that's where I wanted to share that.
I found a page on the FCC website, and it says2 1 1 is available approximately 99 percent of the U. S. population according to 2 1 1 dot org.
(22:37):
Yeah.
They do welfare checks.
I'm going to put those links.
I had a lot of challenges doing publicoutreach for the state of Connecticut.
as an example, someone said, when they called 2 11 because their daughter was overdosing, they kept asking this person, the father, Sir, are you in danger?
And he said, No, my daughter's having an overdose.
(22:58):
She's, I think she's going into some sort of,epileptic or cardiac, some condition here that, and again, they repeated, Sir, are you in danger?
Apparently, they previously, they required aperson that's in danger must make the call.
not the parent or loved one.
I then, after that, went on and called 2 1 1.
(23:19):
I said, I'm not in danger, but I'd like to know, areyou all aware of the program Al Anon and Alateen?
And they hunted, they have to fish,they had to fish around for it.
I said, oh yeah, okay, for friends and family.
I said, could you please talk to whomever it is there at theRed Cross at the 2 1 1 number and try to put that a little further up on the list because the person that's calling in a case that I heard recently was also suffering greatly
(23:47):
at the, the awful feeling of seeing a loved one close todeath or in pain, suffering at the grips in the hands of her addiction or disease or, whatever it is, overdose.
I called back a month later.
I asked the same question.
Within 30 seconds, they said, Yes, we are now recommendingthe loved ones of someone that calls for assistance.
(24:11):
Look up Al Anon for themselves.
How about that?
How cool is that?
so gratifying to hear That
A little while ago you talked about a quotethat a friend had sent and I found this.
it says on funerals, loss, grief, friendship and support.
It's not about knowing what to say.
(24:32):
It's about being there when nobody knows what to say.
The only thing people need to hear is you are not alone.
And that doesn't require words,it just requires your presence.
I've had that experience.
I have on occasion been that person who was just there.
and I've also been the person who was receiving presence.
(24:55):
And, yeah, that is very true.
That is so true that, when a loved one is grieving.
I think I often am like, well, what can I do?
What can I say?
This very clearly gives me one thing that I can do.
It doesn't even require me to say
show up and offer
your shoulder and a hug.
(25:15):
Yup.
that's enough.
I got a voicemail from Pete.
Hello, my name is Pete and I was calling in about thegrief episode and using program tools to get through grief.
I went through a period in my 20s where a whole bunch ofpeople died and I just had no skill sets to deal with it.
And I just kind of suppressed it and things were weird.
(25:36):
I don't even know what I did, honestly,because I was that oblivious to my feelings.
But then this last round was in my 40s.
It was actually in late 2020 is whena bunch of deaths started happening.
And I mean, at a point where I had, I think, three lovedones in three weeks or three, maybe four weeks all died.
it was really rough.
It was a great aunt who we had gotten into hospice and wewere her closest family and my grandmother who had died.
(25:57):
She died from COVID in a home and no one could be there.
And then one of my best friends passed awayunexpectedly after I had tried to get him into the hospital and he just wouldn't go.
and I was probably his best friend and hewas definitely one of my best friends.
I had a lot of guilt because I actually showedup to his house when the paramedics were there.
Someone else had had some concerns as well andgone over there and I found him being almost wheeled out on a stretcher and the guy found him unresponsive and he ended up dying at the hospital and I had to identify him and I was so heavy in my grief and then I had just more deaths after that.
(26:29):
It was rough.
I was not the only one at that periodof time, but it was pretty intense.
I think the thing that was really important that Ilearned in program was really staying in the moment.
And just doing the next right thing.
And that is something I'veabsolutely learned in the program.
It's just do the next right thing, stay in the boat,keep going to program things, just keep showing up.
And eventually I was able to get through the grief.
And I even reached out to people, Ihave a beloved alcoholic in my life.
(26:53):
I love her so much and there's things I trust thecrap out of her with and there's things I don't, and one of the things that she was able to do for me is she would text me and make sure that I had eaten.
Have you eaten?
Have you drank?
Have you done this?
Have you done that?
And she would check on me because she had been throughso much rough stuff and just doing those basic actions.
It was just really interesting becausethere's no way I would have been ever able.
(27:13):
Ever, ever able to trust an alcoholic like that pre programbecause I can trust her in certain ways and I know I can and there's ways I can't trust her, and then I also was able to just get through it one moment at a time and just really
just keep reading the literature and just really reachingout to people and not isolating because that's something I would tend to do is isolate and not take care of myself.
And so I did halt a lot, hungry, angry,lonely, tired, and then grieving.
(27:36):
but yeah, the skill sets that I've learned to program arereally what got me through and I'm really grateful for that.
I still have moments of grief, but Ialso do awareness acceptance action where I'm start becoming aware of the grief.
I know what it feels like in my body now.
And then I can.
I'll be, accept it, and I start accepting, okay, thisis how I'm feeling, and then I do something about it, and sometimes that's just accepting that it exists, But there's just so much good stuff that the program got me through, and I could go on for days, but I think I've been on for three minutes now, so I will stop talking.
(28:05):
Thank you.
Pete, thank you.
Thank you for sharing the experience you had withyour friend, who just showed up, who asked you Hey, are you doing the minimum to take care of yourself?
Because When we're in deep grief, sometimes we don't, right?
I don't remember to eat.
(28:26):
I don't remember to sleep so thanks for that, Pete.
Why don't I move on to Bruce?
Bruce Tree, my old friend.
I was thinking about and readingabout what you mentioned last night.
I was talking to him about how weird it feels to be ina new place, serenity, and yet still have very strong emotional ties to the troubled person in our lives.
(28:47):
Wanting to help, quote, them in any way we can.
It's a difficult line to walk for me.
My old behavior of trying to do for them things I thoughtwould help them behave the way I wanted them to behave.
It was so much more about having it my way.
Of having my life go along the story I hadwritten in my head and really less about truly helping them in their struggles.
(29:13):
When I realized that epiphany through the helpand the wisdom in the rooms, it felt awful.
I beat myself up for wasting so much of my time, again, itwas about me, and I felt useless to control the disease.
More work in Al-Anon led me tounderstanding that everyone makes choices.
Some work out, some do not.
(29:35):
I make choices, the alcoholic addict makeschoices, and it is about having the understanding and dignity to allow everyone their own choices.
With those choices come consequences.
Which we learn in the program to acceptfor each individual, you, me, them.
Again, lots of meetings, readings, talking withsponsors and friends, and still for me, there are days of grief and, quote, lost time, lost relationships, lost choices, and sadness for these things I believe didn't work out the way I had scripted them to go.
(30:13):
There are also days of magnificent serenity now, ofwhich it feels strange and awkward sometimes, still.
Other times the serenity feels wonderful, like awarm blanket being wrapped around me as I worry less about others, learn to live my life for me, and accept that I am worthy, I am worth it.
(30:34):
And deserve it, Bruce.
Yeah, awesome Bruce, thank you.
Thanks, Bruce.
It felt useless to control their disease.
Everyone makes choices.
Some work out, and some do not.
wow.
Yeah, I think about the time when my son, found himself.
(30:58):
I guess he said yes, so it was not involuntary, but itwas not really a choice for him to end up in a psych ward.
I'm trying to think about the feelings I had.
I think there was almost certainly some anger.
Like, how the hell could you do this kind of anger?
there was fear.
(31:21):
probably there was some explicit grief, butI don't know that I was quite there yet.
The loss of a dream kind of thing.
This could have totally derailed his lifeat the age of, what was he, 19 or 20?
My wife and I had fear that this was asymptom of a developing mental disease.
(31:43):
That, looked like possibly schizophrenia, which forsome reason often comes on around that age in men.
But in the moment, I was able to use my programprinciples to, as I've said before, do for him the things he could not do for himself.
And to leave him to do the things that he needed to do.
(32:05):
for himself.
To make his own choices about his life, going forward.
So, thanks for bringing that back, Bruce.
It brings to me this recognition that oftenfor me intermixed with grief early is anger.
when you get the five stages of grieving and somebody else,I think it was Molly said, it's not really linear like that.
(32:29):
you don't go through denial and then anger andthen, whatever the bargaining and depression and acceptance necessarily in that order.
But often those things are inthere maybe all mixed up together.
And for me, when it became clear that my parentshad dementia, I was like, angry about that.
Like why the hell does this have to happen?
(32:49):
why does it have to happen?
My mother for a good part of her adult life, herfear was that she would get Alzheimer's because her mother had it and there she was, and I could be angry
about that.
What is, Bruce's share bring up for you?
How weird it feels to be in both of those places.
(33:11):
How can I feel happy, relieved, serene, safe?
Yet, I played a role in this, Imade a choice that took me first.
Sometimes that hurts to think, she's hurtingmore than I am, let me love her to death let we love her sober, hug her straight.
(33:32):
As I've often said, doesn't work, man.
I did a tour of, stepping Stones aboutthree weeks ago with a group from YANA.
you were not alone meeting.
We organized a field trip it's such a powerful place.
And there was Lois's desk, the very first edition ofyou Were not alone with a knit cover around it in blue.
(33:53):
And the power of that location is just astonishing.
the little cabin up the hill where Bill W.wrote the book, which is called Wits End.
When, Lois would say, where you going?
He's I'm going to Wits End, I live at Wits End.
I'm at Wits End.
And that's where he wrote the big book, AA.
(34:14):
But I also, recall, the book that she wrote,which is called When Love Is Not Enough.
I have to believe that I can't love my addict straight.
So it's better that I just focus on myself.
Made the best choices I thought I couldmake at the time and then turn it over.
(34:34):
And what happens next?
I don't know.
I guess one of the tools that comes to mindthat you mentioned that I've taken to heart and carry around in my pocket change, is to try to not live in the wreckage of the future.
I don't know what tomorrow's going to be like.
I don't know what this afternoon's going to be like.
I'm going to go see her in the hospital this afternoon.
(34:55):
I know she's hurting and she's in pain.
And she's getting all kinds of things stuffed down hernose and injections and, she's on IV drips for pain and.
Man, it's hard to see, but I know she'sbeing cared for and that's a relief.
I long ago stopped being, counselor,therapist, doctor, crossing guard, chef, I can't do it and I shouldn't be doing it.
(35:21):
I can't force anyone else.
The only way I can push anyone is away, that comes to mind.
I can't force her to eat, I can't forceher to sleep, I can't force her to not do bad things to herself, I can't force that.
So, what I got out of Bruce is how weird it feelsto be in a place of serenity, but still have strong emotional ties to the troubled person in our lives, wanting to help them in any way we can.
(35:48):
Bruce sums it up, he sums it up really
Yeah.
Wow.
Thanks, Bruce.
I want to play this voice memo from Roberta.
Hi Spencer and Eric.
Thank you so much for reaching outand asking for outside input on grief.
It has been 36 days that my father has passed and I becamean orphan because my mother has passed before him and I have never experienced this much sadness and grief and anger.
(36:22):
Boy am I angry.
And I know that I can find relief if I jump intothe program with both feet and just hold my breath and be submerged by everything that I have known for the last 13 years, 13 years new in this program.
(36:42):
And I feel like a newcomer.
My heart is heavy, I burst intotears without knowing really why.
I mean, I do know why.
And then rage.
This rage that fills inside me.
And I know I'm safe when I'm home becausesomebody could say something to me at the grocery store and I might just go off on them.
(37:03):
And I know that's not right.
And I know I can get outside help.
That being said, for me right now, my outside helpis jumping into my program to the best of my ability.
Reaching out to my sponsor, reaching out to programfriends, reading the literature, getting to meetings, doing all I can to help relieve my sadness, my anger, my grief, and know that this too shall pass.
(37:34):
It doesn't have to pass in a flash, I just need tohave better control of my emotions and also live them, know, it's okay to have all these emotions.
I just can't act on the rage and I know that too.
I just wanted to share, that's where I am today.
(37:57):
It's a hard road.
It really is.
And it's okay.
this journey, as bumpy as it is right now, themore I go over it, the smoother the bumps will be.
Just like a path, right?
After a storm.
I believe that's in one of our readings.
So thank you both for opening my heart more tothis process of grief within our fantastic program.
(38:25):
Thank you.
wow, it brings tears to my eyes, listening to her.
She says, it's been 36 days since myfather has passed and I became an orphan.
I guess I'm an orphan, and I think my brother and sisterand I said that to each other when my mother died, you know.
(38:45):
Roberta also talks about things she'sreaching out to for relief, recovery.
It sounds like, she feels like she's in a place that shedoesn't want to be and she can't get herself out of there.
and reaching out to the program,friends and tools, is helping.
Thanks Roberta for, wow, just so powerful.
(39:07):
I want to actually close with an excerpt from pages,50 to 51 I think is approximately where this is in Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.
The more we apply the Al Anon ideas, themore changes we will see in ourselves.
Along with these new and excitingchanges may also come a sense of loss.
(39:28):
Loss of our old selves, our old belief systems, our oldways of living, and sometimes our old relationships.
It may seem strange to grieve for the parts ofourselves that led us to treat ourselves so poorly, but change, even good change, can trigger loss.
Letting go is difficult, even when what we'reletting go of is unhealthy or undesirable.
So quote, through this process of growth, I buried myold ways of thinking and the ways I treated myself.
(39:53):
It felt much like burying old clothes that no longer fit me.
Certain beliefs and behaviors mustdie in order for us to change.
Once we're ready to let go of these aspectsof ourselves, we turn to step seven.
In this step, we humbly ask our higherpower to remove our shortcomings.
Many of us have experienced a feeling ofrelease when we request our higher power's help.
(40:14):
As we let go of our old selves, we make room for the new.
After divorce, one member felt suicidal.
Then I realized it wasn't me, but partof my belief system that needed to die.
Our old coping mechanisms got us through some toughtimes, and for that we can be grateful, but it's also okay to say goodbye to those parts of ourselves.
Al Anon may not be able to give us back everythingwe have lost, but it can restore our sense of hope.
(40:39):
By learning to focus on ourselves, we find that peace andcontentment are possible even in the midst of uncertainty.
As we gain strength and self confidence,we find that we have loosened our grip on the dreams we once held so tightly.
Before long, we realize we're building new dreams.
An excerpt from Al Anon's Just for Todaybookmark reads, Just for today, I will adjust myself to what is, and not try to adjust
(41:04):
everything to my own desires.
We may always feel a certain degreeof sadness for the loss of our dreams.
I can occasionally glance over my shoulder.
It's alright.
It shows me how far I've come and howmuch I don't want to go back there.
We can look back but not stare.
Yep, we did one on hope as well.
(41:24):
Yeah, 40 something episodes, wehave covered a lot of topics.
Earlier I said I wasn't sure if we hadprevious episodes on grief, and I found two.
Episode 386, Loss and Grief, that wasa share I gave at an online meeting.
And 293, my conversation with Lynne, whichwas titled, Grief Can Be a Wonderful Thing.
(41:48):
we picked music, actually, we have a lot of songsthat we picked as possibilities for this episode.
Those will all show up in a Spotify playlist thatwill be linked in the show notes at therecovery.
show slash 429.
But the first one that I think we bothagree this is It's a beautiful song.
(42:08):
It's really hard for me to talk about it without tears.
This is Eric Clapton with Tears in Heaven.
This is a song that he wrote following the death ofhis four year old son who fell from a window of a 53rd floor, New York apartment of his mother's friend.
just a tragedy, and he turnedit into a really beautiful song.
(42:35):
I'll just quote a little bit from the lyrics here.
Time can bring you down, time can bend your knees,time can break your heart, have you begging, please.
Beyond the door, there's peace, I'm sure, and I know.
There'll be no more tears in heaven, but he's not there yet.
(42:55):
No more tears in heaven.
What a relief.
In this section of the podcast.
We talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
Eric, I think you've already expressed a lot of that.
(43:15):
what's going on in, in your life,in your recovery life recently.
Thinking for me, I talked in a recent episode about howI'm figuring out what is right for me in retirement, what activities, I want to be doing, et cetera, And this week I took the first step in restarting
(43:37):
one of those things, which is, taking care of myphysical body by, going to the gym and, doing some weightlifting and balance exercises that my body needs.
I was talking to a friend recently about aging and musclemass, and we both know that as we age, we lose muscle mass and that, for somebody at my stage of life, maybe it's not about creating new muscles, or not building my muscles up, but just keeping what I've got, maintaining it.
(44:08):
And that I think is a goal I can get behind.
Tuesday I went into the gym.
I met with my trainer who I hadn't seensince mid November before my surgery.
He walked me through some of the exercises thatI had been doing, evaluating where I am and, the good news is that I haven't backslid too much.
(44:31):
My performance has declined and I need to buildthat back up and the reason that I started with him was to get that sort of assessment level.
For him to say, okay, this is where you were, this iswhere you are, this is what I want you to be doing.
And then I went again.
on Friday, I'll be planning to go in Monday or Tuesday andthen I'll see him again on Thursday and then he's moving on to a new job and I'm going to have to get a new trainer.
(44:54):
I'm a member of the YMCA and they sell trainer sessions.
You can buy individual sessions, you can buyfour at a time, or I think you can buy more.
You get a little bit of a discount for buying four.
While I was there on Tuesday, I bought another fourpack, as I put it, because that commits me and I know that sometimes I need those external commitments.
(45:15):
So I don't know who I'm going to get as a new trainer . ButI know that I will have one and I'm committed to going.
An amazing part of recovery has been getting to knowmyself better and knowing that, yeah, I need commitment.
I need an external push sometimes to get things done.
(45:36):
And that shows up here.
You were like, Hey, Spence, I want todo this episode on grief and relief.
And I was like, that sounds like a great idea.
And then I sat on it for, I don't know, acouple of weeks, maybe not quite that long.
And then I said to myself earlier thisweek, I said, no, we need to do this.
we need to do it soon, and so I sent outan email to the group asking for shares, which we got, and asked you to schedule a
(45:59):
time, and here we Um, so those
external commitments really helped me to, to keep going.
So I think that's what I got for right now.
You want to add anything?
Yeah.
What I'd like to add is what I've done.
That has changed during this period of time ofserenity, but also grief, is tried to overcome that grief by doing more of the things I love.
(46:22):
So I've upped my meditation.
I've started going to these retreats.
I've upped my prayer.
I'm considering doing a trip withOutward Bound to hike Joshua Tree out in California, or sea kayaking down in Florida.
I went to a community theater in my localarea last week, which came to learn is one of the most active in the country.
(46:43):
I just happened to move about a month and a half ago.
And I'm finding all these interesting things thatare available to me that are so close now.
And it was opening night of Mystic Pizza,the movie, which made Julia Roberts famous.
And it was not an empty seat in thehouse, And, it was incredibly fun.
I'm having dinner with friends more, I'mgetting out, I'm going to go skiing on Monday.
(47:04):
We're doing a drum circle here locally in anoutdoor teepee with a fire pit the first Friday in March, I'm having a Super Bowl party tomorrow.
So I think I'm embracing for the moment, live and let live.
You know, my daughter has herown higher power and it's not me.
so I am trying to enjoy the life I have, with theloved ones that are near me and those that are around me and myself by doing things that I love.
(47:31):
And I certainly love cooking.
Having people over and going to live events.
So, that's what I'm doing.
Sounds like fun.
All right.
We always look forward to what's coming up in thepodcast and we've been off of our steps episodes for a little while, but we'll be coming back.
We still have steps eight through 12 to go.
And as always, we welcome your thoughts.
(47:54):
Please join our conversation, leave a voicemail or send usan email with your feedback, your questions, your shares.
Eric, how can people send us feedback?
You can send a voice memo or emailto feedback at the recovery show.
Or If you prefer, you can call andleave us a voicemail 734 707 8795.
(48:14):
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength and hope.
Of your questions about today's topic of grief and reliefor any of our upcoming topics, including steps 8 through 12.
If you have a topic you'd like usto talk about, please let us know.
If you would like advanced notice for some of ourtopics so that you can contribute to the topic, you can sign up for our mailing list, by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show, put quote email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
(48:46):
And as you might've guessed, our website is therecovery.
show, or there's other aliases that alsowork, where we have all information about the show, which is mostly notes for each episode.
Notes for this episode, of course,can be found at therecovery.
show slash 429.
There will be links to the books that we readfrom, the podcast episodes that we mentioned, other websites that came up during our conversation, and videos for the music, right on that page at the recovery dot show/429 I have also started adding a transcript of the episode into the show notes.
(49:28):
It's in a little collapsible box.
you have to click on the littletriangle icon to, expand it out.
They tend to be large.
Eric, you found this song called BeautifulBrokenness, by a duo called StoweGood.
What do you want to say about this song?
as opposed to in the past this oneI did very little preparation on.
(49:51):
I only spent yesterday for a few hours, I'm busy withwork, I'm busy with trying to manage my daughter, a little bit of help for her, not manage, but supply some comfort by running things down to the hospital.
She's there for much longer than she thought she would be.
Anyway, I just stumbled on it yesterdayafternoon, as you and I were talking about doing this today, I saw this, it just, wow, it looks like a room full of women from our program.
(50:18):
And they're all speaking about thissubject, and here are some of the verses.
Beautiful brokenness, love will always win.
Beautiful brokenness, that's how the light gets in.
From the shattered pieces of a lifetime tattered andtorn, something lovely rises up, and I've been reborn.
Day by day I wake to someone I have never seen, who'dhave guessed that I could ever love someone like me.
(50:45):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Now it's time to hear from you.
Janice writes, Hi Spencer, I'm a longtimelistener and love The Recovery Show.
I listened to number 428 today on my walk.
(51:07):
Heather mentioned she lives in LA, as do I, and thatshe attends an in person ACA meeting once a week.
I wonder if she would mind sharing the name, date,and location of the meeting so I can find it.
I am an Al Anon, and I relate strongly to ACA issues.
I grew up in an alcoholic family.
My dad was my first alcoholic.
(51:27):
Through my work in Al Anon, I have come to identifythat I have an inner child that I call Little Janice, and she is healing as I work my program.
I would really like to check out ACAmeetings so I can perhaps get into that, too.
By the way, I live in the Hollywood Hills, and whenHeather mentioned the fires, I related to that, too.
I'm glad she is okay.
(51:47):
Thanks for letting me know any information.
This was an awesome episode.
I love them all.
Warm regards, Janice.
And I did forward Janice's contact information to Heather.
I believe they got in touch.
You know, when I do that handoff, I don't generallyask to let me know whether that's happened.
And then Heather wrote, Spencer, I justfound time to listen to 427 with Misty.
(52:11):
It's amazing.
I am hearing so much that I need.
I would love to connect with herto have additional conversation.
Would you please forward my contact info?
Again, I'm so grateful that you entertained this question.
I know that many of us are supported by sharingexperience, strength, and hope on this topic.
Take care, friend.
Signed, Heather.
(52:31):
I forwarded Heather's contact information to Mistyand I hope that they have been able to get in touch.
You know, this is something that.
It just amazes me that it happens.
Heather asked the question.
Misty responded with her experience,strength, and hope as did others.
And Heather now is Oh, I love what Misty had to say.
(52:55):
I hear so much that I need and wants toconnect, what an amazing thing to happen just by me hosting this little podcast.
Janet sent an email addressed to Spencer and Eric.
She writes, Spencer and Eric, you have gotme through many nights when I cannot sleep.
When the demons have taken over my thoughts.
Thank you for giving me a go to and helping me to sleep.
(53:16):
Instead, I've drawn strength fromyour wisdom and exploration.
Thank you, Janet, for writingand also for supporting the show.
thank you Janet.
Eric, I want to thank you for the topic and forjoining me today for this conversation about grief and relief, and I just want to wish you all the relief that you can find as you, find it.
(53:42):
Thank you Spencer.
It's always helpful for me to do these with you.
I hope that someone out there can find somethingfrom my share that speaks to their life as we say, this is certainly speaking to mine right now.
I really appreciate your work, as always, inrecovery, and I wish you, as well, peace and serenity.
(54:02):
Thank you for everything you've contributed.
You know, we joke about how many episodesyou've been in, but it's about 10 percent of the total, which is more than anybody except me.
The last song that I'm going to talk about here, and like Isaid, there will be a playlist with a bunch of other songs.
This is from Warren Zevon.
One of my kids was a real WarrenZevon fan when they were a teenager.
(54:23):
This song is called Keep Me in Your Heart.
And it's from his album The Wind, which is thealbum that he decided he needed to make, when he found that he was dying of incurable lung cancer.
Knowing that puts a little extraemotional weight on this song for me.
(54:43):
One that I didn't pick, but which will be in theplaylist, is actually a Bob Dylan song, Knocking on Heaven's Door, because he was knocking on heaven's door.
But this song, Keep Me in Your Heart.
Here's some lyrics.
Shadows are falling and I'm running out of breath.
Keep me in your heart for a while.
If I leave you, it doesn't mean I love you any less.
(55:05):
Keep me in your heart for a while.
God, I don't think I can get through this without crying.
When you get up in the morning and you see thatcrazy sun, keep me in your heart for a while.
There's a train leaving nightlycalled when all is said and done.
keep me in your heart, for a while.
And the chorus is just keep me in your heart for a while.
(55:27):
Here's somebody who knows he's leaving.
But is saying if I keep him in my heart or if I keepany of my loved ones in my heart, they're still with me, even though they're physically gone from this world.
They're still with me in my heart.
Always.
I'll throw one more in here.
Speaking about songs that make mebreak completely down with love.
(55:50):
It's When I Look to the Sky by Train and I recordedit myself, with background music in my guitar and played it at my mother's memorial service.
It says, when I look to the sky,something tells me you're here with me.
The rest of the lyrics, I can'tread them, I'll start weeping.
(56:11):
Feel free to add that one, it's quite an astonishing song.
We might have four on the web page this time.
Again, thank you Thank you, Eric.
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
(56:33):
If we did not talk about a problem you werefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
How can the principles and tools ofrecovery help us find relief from grief?
Welcome to episode 429 of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Brandon,Maureen, Janet, Ray, Alison, and Dorothy.
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you Brandon, Maureen, Janet, Ray, Alison,and Dorothy for your generous contributions.
(00:23):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show,we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
(00:50):
And during this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today and joining me today andproviding the topic for today's discussion is Eric.
Welcome back to the recovery show, Eric.
(01:12):
Good morning, Spencer, for the umteenth, as we said.
42, 43, something like that.
We want to open with a reading that you chose.
the reason I chose this, look, there's no coincidences.
If you believe in that, I certainly do.
just literally two weeks ago after a major event in my life,in the you are not alone morning, 7 30 a. m. daily meeting.
(01:39):
one of the members suggested starting a study group.
Using that book, Opening Our Hearts, TransformingOur Losses, which is really about loss and grief.
As fate would have it.
We've had about four meetings, and it's like every pageis just speaking to me, so I'll start with this one.
(02:01):
This is from pages 98 99, OpeningOur Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.
Relief.
When her husband died, one member wassurprised to feel a profound sense of relief.
It meant I would be free, freerthan I'd been in our life together.
Unquote.
One man was relieved to know that his wife isno longer suffering in the grips of the disease.
(02:26):
A parent shared, quote, I'm not sure my son wouldhave found peace on this earth, but I am grateful he didn't leave behind a wife or a child who would have to go through the pain of his alcoholism.
Many of us are surprised to feelrelief when the alcoholic dies.
Such feelings of relief can often lead us toquestion whether something is wrong with us.
(02:51):
If we feel relief , we wonder.
Does it mean that we are glad the alcoholic is gone.
Those who don't understand the disease of alcoholismmay criticize or misjudge us, assuming our feelings of relief mean we didn't love the alcoholic.
For fear of being perceived as callous, wemight hesitate in admitting our feelings of relief, even to other fellow Al Anon members.
(03:14):
We may worry that our feelings are unique,and that no one will be able to understand us.
If we take the risk to share about what we're feelingwith our sponsor or other Al Anon members, we may find that we're not the only ones to experience these emotions.
Our feelings of relief don't meanwe didn't love the alcoholic.
(03:36):
Perhaps our relief is a sign of ourcompassion for one who is no longer suffering.
Perhaps we're relieved that we ourselves have been set free.
Oh,
Powerful.
Mutual sigh.
Yeah.
and I identify with this feeling of relief.
At the deaths of my parents who had been sufferingfrom dementia, not alcoholism, but that is also a disease that takes our loved ones and changes them.
(04:07):
My father, by the end of hislife, was totally uncommunicative.
He had lost words.
He couldn't form words anymore.
And the thing that I don't know is,what was going on inside him, you know?
My mother, when he died, herfeeling was what's the point anymore?
(04:31):
So I feel like they were both relieved of a burden, relievedof pain, and to be honest, so were we as caregivers.
it doesn't mean I didn't grieve their passing, you know?
So this passage speaks to me about that experience.
how about you, Eric?
(04:53):
Well, we're gonna lean intosomething that's incredibly painful.
Which if this is for me right now, as I texted you,I wasn't sure I could get through this episode today.
My grief is not about death of a loved one.
It's about, forcible detachment.
what I mean by that is, she was arrested fordisturbing the peace, trying to get into my home in the middle of the night, banging on the door, clearly under the influence, and arrested.
(05:22):
The court, put an order of protection on me,that limits her from accessing my property.
She's not permitted to come on the property.
I can still talk to her.
There'll be another hearing with the judge where thismight be modified and it might even be modified sooner.
Which I, again, I am on the fence about.
Because honestly, for the last two weeks,since she's been unable to come here, I've had an enormous amount of relief and serenity.
(05:50):
This is your daughter?
Yeah, my daughter.
My daughter, who I love and adore with all myheart, is, suffering from the grips of not only, self medication, I'm sure, but alcoholism as well, and a lot of depression and suicidal ideations.
This would be a completely different episode if itwere regarding suicide or death, but they all apply.
(06:14):
And it's whatever we lose, maybeit's the loss of our dreams.
We're grieving the loss of our dreams, and that wasa huge topic for me when I first came in, the loss of our dreams and the grief associated with that.
The fairy tale that I had made up and planned for andbuilt my life around and anticipated wasn't meant to be.
(06:36):
I used to call it fractured fairy tales.
So it can also be about someone finding sobriety.
The grief has been relieved, canbe, if someone finds sobriety.
There's lots and lots of ways to look at thistopic, so I thought it might be worth a deeper dive.
Oh sure.
yeah, there's just a lot, there's a lot to it, andthe more I look, the more I see, and you know me, if I'm feeling something that is uncomfortable, as my higher power would say, if I hadn't made you uncomfortable, you wouldn't have moved.
(07:08):
I'm trying to move.
On top of all that, she, came down with a lung infectionon Tuesday morning, and I was called to pick her up, and she was, I don't want to get too graphic, but it was very unpleasant, she had an abscess, it turns out, she's still
in the hospital today, after Tuesday and four or five daysof them running every test node, it appears to be, a lung infection, That is most likely, going to require surgery.
(07:37):
So that'll probably be four to six weeks from now.
The question now is, should I permit her to come home?
And, boy, this is a really tough little seesaw that I'm on.
You know, give up my, relief that I'm, feeling now.
to invite her back home and see how it goes.
So I don't want to go on and on.
We have a lot more to get to, but I justthought I'd throw those things in there.
(08:01):
Yeah.
backstory about why I came to thispowerful suggestion about this topic.
When I've looked at this topic before, and I don'tremember if we've done grief as a topic directly, I certainly have talked about it, in the context of my parents and their ends of their lives, but I don't know if we've done it as a full topic.
(08:27):
I should have looked.
One of the key things that the book Opening OurHearts, Transforming Our Losses, illustrates, Is that grief comes from many different sources and I just want to actually, read the chapter titles, because that helps to clarify that idea.
(08:48):
The chapters are grief as a process, living withthe family disease of alcoholism, loss of the dream, grieving for our childhood, loss in relationships, and Death of a loved one, dealing with our feelings, taking care of ourselves, and spiritual growth from grieving.
So at the beginning it's talking about someof the things that we might be grieving, and I think loss of the dream is a big one.
(09:16):
You get into a relationship with somebody or youhave a child and you have, particular, I'll say expectations, dreams about how that's going to evolve.
Sometimes life doesn't go in the directionthat we think it's going to or we think it ought to and we can grieve that.
It's not until chapter six that we get to death.
(09:38):
The final chapters, seven throughnine are really about how we recover.
. It's a solid book.
Anyway, I could say there was some griefwhen my kids went off to college even.
Like, okay, they're, this is not necessarily true, butit felt oh, we're not going to have them at home anymore.
I grieved when I realized that a hobby that I'd beeninvolved in for, a couple of decades was no longer fulfilling me and that I needed to move on from that.
(10:09):
And I grieved when my parents died, there's been a lotof people in my life that have died by the time you get to almost 70 years old, usually there's some people that have died, that you loved, but it's not just death.
I'll stop now.
but you know this question likewhat griefs have I experienced?
Well, those are a few of them.
Yeah, I don't think it's a mistake that theychose growth from grieving as the last chapter and that's really what we're here for, what our program talks about is growing from things that are uncomfortable and that are painful, AFGO, right?
(10:44):
Another F in growth opportunity.
the order of protection, I've sharedproblems in other episodes with you, but.
In the midst of my ex, the mom, mother of mydaughter's, grips of her and height of her alcoholism, I've had four of those issued by a marshal to her, even while we were still married, and then while we were living together but not married, and probably thereafter, when she had the girls living with her.
(11:13):
I got issued by the court without much effort,but they didn't call it an order of protection.
no
same exact document, a restrainingorder, an order of protection.
It's the exact same document, which is theone I had served to her three, four times.
The fifth time she wasn't able to beserved because she fled to a sober house.
(11:36):
The third version is called relief from abuse.
Those were the ones that I had issued to her.
And that's what we're going to talk about.
how in our program, what tools canwe use to find relief from grief?
I put down a couple of the slogans that Ithink we would do well to carry those around if we're in that position of grief and relief.
(12:01):
I think the ones I put were one day at a time.
PISO, pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Let go and let God, just for today,detachment, one day at a time.
And I wrote, if I don't share it, I'm gonna wear it.
reach out, reason out, talk it out, get it out.
The only way through is out.
You mean the only way out is through?
(12:21):
I'm sorry, the only way how, what did I say?
You said the only way through is out.
The only way out is through.
Yeah, but who said the only way out is through?
Spencer,
I don't know.
click on the link I sent
it's attributed to Robert Frost, but then somebodyelse says, no, it's in Dante's Inferno, part of the Divine Comedy from the 12th century.
(12:46):
Dante looks into hell and he says, there's no way back.
And he says, how did they get out?
And Virgil says, the way out is through.
you go, the only way out is through.
And you've heard it, it's probably one of our readers.
when going through hell, keep going.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And same idea.
Absolutely.
How about that?
(13:08):
You mentioned some things we got right.
we got, shares from some of the listeners.
I think I want to start with this one from Pam.
My name is Pam and I've been inAl Anon for six and a half years.
I've been grieving over the past year as mybeautiful sister passed away in January 2024.
She had problems with drinking on and off foryears, but I was hopeful that the next time that she went into rehab would be her last.
(13:33):
However, that wasn't meant to be.
I have relied heavily on the program tohelp me get through my sadness and anger.
It has been really hard as she and I were really close.
I've attended more meetings this past year, got asubscription to the Forum Magazine, increased my service, and made some new friends through the program.
In addition, my wonderful sponsor and I havebeen working through, on a weekly basis, the book Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.
(13:57):
This book has really helped me so much to validateall of the feelings that I have over losing my sister.
I'm working on finding serenitythrough my grief, one day at a time.
Thank you for your service.
It has been so helpful over the years.
Thank you, Pam, for sharing that.
and again, the book comes up.
(14:18):
There's a lot of heavy sighs during this episode, right?
this is very sigh worthy.
Yeah, no kidding.
I got one, if you don't mind, I'll read on toanother share from Molly F. up here in Connecticut.
She said, when I'm experiencing anticipatorygrief, it is helpful to recognize it for what it is.
(14:39):
This awareness alone is helpful.
Then I work to remind myself that I need to trustthe process, accept the unknowing of what, when, and how, and instead meet my loved one or myself in the moment with trust, presence, gratitude, and love.
When I think about observing someone at the endof life, or actually passing, I try to think of it as a birthing process to a new form.
(15:04):
That was helpful to me.
I noticed how strong the spiritwas, as if it was fully present.
But the physical body was simply tired, sick, weak, fading.
I also believe that the spirit remains and that I willstill have connection with my loved one who has passed.
What has helped me with my grief is my abilityto communicate with loved ones who have passed.
(15:30):
To ask for signs.
And then notice when I'm hearing, seeing, experiencing.
It's been both subtle and awe inspiring,and has strengthened my faith.
I also believe there are no just,quote, X amount of stages of grief.
To me, grief is like a wave.
It comes and goes.
(15:50):
Sometimes I welcome it, and other times mytendency is to resist, or try to control it.
That awareness reminds me to allow and breathe into it.
Finally, one of the most valuable lessonsI've learned from grief is how it builds compassion and connection with others.
When I experienced the passing of loved ones, I feltas if I had joined a club I didn't want to be part of.
(16:16):
At the same time, I'm grateful to be in that grief club.
Because it is part of life and becausethe compassion does connect us.
Wow.
Thanks, Molly.
yeah.
Thanks, Molly.
And she talks about grief as a wave.
It comes and goes.
In the book, page 14, there's a sectiontitled The Recurring Nature of Grief.
(16:40):
It talks about little things and how littlethings build up and then, suddenly overwhelm us and I've definitely had that experience as well.
The other day I was looking at a photographan old photograph and wondering You know, who are these people in this photograph?
And I realized there is nobody left inmy life that I can ask that question to.
(17:05):
It's just this little upwelling of grief.
I have tried to let myself feel.
When something comes up, just feel itfor however long I need to feel it.
Molly talks about sometimes resisting ortrying to control, and that probably happens.
but what I've found for me is that if I letit come, if I let myself feel it, it usually goes away quicker than if I try to control it.
(17:32):
You know?
What happened to me two weeks ago, right after Irealized that my daughter had been arrested and spent the night in jail, the sergeant, from the police department called and said, is she okay coming home?
and this was the morning afterall this craziness was going on.
(17:52):
And at that moment, I guess I just said, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
she woke up everybody in my six unit complex, andmy landlord called me, and the police were here.
And, 1.
32 in the morning.
She got charged with disturbing thepeace, which is a very serious offense.
I never really Realize how serious that is.
That's a criminal offense.
(18:14):
and I guess I said to the officer in my fog and, confusion,chaotic, unclear thinking, maybe it was clear, maybe it was my higher power doing for me what I couldn't do for myself.
I said, no, I'm not okay with her coming home today.
And so then they went and issued this order of protection.
And then for the next three days, I fellall the way back down the ladder, Spencer.
(18:39):
I went back to step one.
Did I cause this?
Did I contribute to this?
What could I have done differently?
Yeah, I started blaming myself.
I was curled up on the couch for six hours.
in grief, in total grief.
What have I done?
is this punishment?
Is this self care?
It was just a goulash of mixed feelings and emotions.
(19:02):
And finally, one of my best friends in program called me.
She knew what was going on.
She said, get in the car and meet me here.
And we went up to spend four hours at ameditation center here in Connecticut.
and there was a guy, that was here fromAustralia with a guitar and a woman on a keyboard doing chants and mantras and, incense.
(19:29):
There were about 20 people in the room.
and the guy was looking at me a few timesbecause he could see I was in a very bad place.
He walked over to me at one pointand said, Let this shit out.
Don't leave here with what you got inside of you.
Let it go.
Don't drive home with that baggage.
Don't drive out of here with those rocks.
(19:51):
And I let it fucking go, man.
seldom do I mean, I do cry often.
I was blessed and cursed with a huge heart.
That sometimes, feels, like the Grinch, justbursting at the seams sometimes with love.
But other times it feels like a curse.
Why do I have to feel so much, I want totry to live in the middle, and balance these things and that's what we have these tools for.
(20:16):
That's why I reached out.
Someone reached out to me.
I used the program.
I went and I did meditation and prayer.
I felt so much relief the day after that.
those feelings used to do lingerand fester and, arithmetically grow.
When I had no tools, they would get worse and worse untilthey cascaded, as we've said before, like a migraine.
(20:38):
When you feel a headache coming on andyou've suffered from migraines, do something.
Don't just sit there.
In this case, get up, move a muscle, do a reading,call somebody, pick up that thousand pound cell phone, call, reach out, go for a walk, read something, do some prayer and meditation, and ask for help.
So I was in despair and sadness, And what my daughtersaid a few days later, Why did you have to call 9 1 1?
(21:05):
Why didn't you call 2 1 1, which is a welfare check?
She said, Dad, if I'm actingsuicidal, call 2 1 1, not 9 1 1.
She volunteered that.
But the other part of it was she'd left the house,I think, under the influence, driving a car.
So I told her, if you're intoxicated or impairedand get behind the wheel, I'm calling 9 1 1.
(21:27):
If I feel that you're a danger to yourself because you'rehaving suicidal thoughts, yes, I agree, I will call 2 1 1.
And that, that little distinction, it actually helped.
And, if it happens again where I feel that she's in someimmediate peril physically to herself about self harm, of which there have been more than a dozen attempts, thank God, every one of them went down to the wire.
(21:51):
I have another tool and I called 2 1 1 a fewdays later and described everything that was going on and they said we're here if you need us.
If you feel that you need help,we'll dispatch a team to your house.
If she's in danger, we will put her in a car.
So I've learned, I, what do we learn from grief?
there it is.
There's the last chapter.
(22:11):
I just learned another way, instead of, 9 11, there's an alternative, and she has agreed.
It's just amazing.
I found some growth in this.
yeah, that's where I wanted to share that.
I found a page on the FCC website, and it says2 1 1 is available approximately 99 percent of the U. S. population according to 2 1 1 dot org.
(22:37):
Yeah.
They do welfare checks.
I'm going to put those links.
I had a lot of challenges doing publicoutreach for the state of Connecticut.
as an example, someone said, when they called 2 11 because their daughter was overdosing, they kept asking this person, the father, Sir, are you in danger?
And he said, No, my daughter's having an overdose.
(22:58):
She's, I think she's going into some sort of,epileptic or cardiac, some condition here that, and again, they repeated, Sir, are you in danger?
Apparently, they previously, they required aperson that's in danger must make the call.
not the parent or loved one.
I then, after that, went on and called 2 1 1.
(23:19):
I said, I'm not in danger, but I'd like to know, areyou all aware of the program Al Anon and Alateen?
And they hunted, they have to fish,they had to fish around for it.
I said, oh yeah, okay, for friends and family.
I said, could you please talk to whomever it is there at theRed Cross at the 2 1 1 number and try to put that a little further up on the list because the person that's calling in a case that I heard recently was also suffering greatly
(23:47):
at the, the awful feeling of seeing a loved one close todeath or in pain, suffering at the grips in the hands of her addiction or disease or, whatever it is, overdose.
I called back a month later.
I asked the same question.
Within 30 seconds, they said, Yes, we are now recommendingthe loved ones of someone that calls for assistance.
(24:11):
Look up Al Anon for themselves.
How about that?
How cool is that?
so gratifying to hear That
A little while ago you talked about a quotethat a friend had sent and I found this.
it says on funerals, loss, grief, friendship and support.
It's not about knowing what to say.
(24:32):
It's about being there when nobody knows what to say.
The only thing people need to hear is you are not alone.
And that doesn't require words,it just requires your presence.
I've had that experience.
I have on occasion been that person who was just there.
and I've also been the person who was receiving presence.
(24:55):
And, yeah, that is very true.
That is so true that, when a loved one is grieving.
I think I often am like, well, what can I do?
What can I say?
This very clearly gives me one thing that I can do.
It doesn't even require me to say
show up and offer
your shoulder and a hug.
(25:15):
Yup.
that's enough.
I got a voicemail from Pete.
Hello, my name is Pete and I was calling in about thegrief episode and using program tools to get through grief.
I went through a period in my 20s where a whole bunch ofpeople died and I just had no skill sets to deal with it.
And I just kind of suppressed it and things were weird.
(25:36):
I don't even know what I did, honestly,because I was that oblivious to my feelings.
But then this last round was in my 40s.
It was actually in late 2020 is whena bunch of deaths started happening.
And I mean, at a point where I had, I think, three lovedones in three weeks or three, maybe four weeks all died.
it was really rough.
It was a great aunt who we had gotten into hospice and wewere her closest family and my grandmother who had died.
(25:57):
She died from COVID in a home and no one could be there.
And then one of my best friends passed awayunexpectedly after I had tried to get him into the hospital and he just wouldn't go.
and I was probably his best friend and hewas definitely one of my best friends.
I had a lot of guilt because I actually showedup to his house when the paramedics were there.
Someone else had had some concerns as well andgone over there and I found him being almost wheeled out on a stretcher and the guy found him unresponsive and he ended up dying at the hospital and I had to identify him and I was so heavy in my grief and then I had just more deaths after that.
(26:29):
It was rough.
I was not the only one at that periodof time, but it was pretty intense.
I think the thing that was really important that Ilearned in program was really staying in the moment.
And just doing the next right thing.
And that is something I'veabsolutely learned in the program.
It's just do the next right thing, stay in the boat,keep going to program things, just keep showing up.
And eventually I was able to get through the grief.
And I even reached out to people, Ihave a beloved alcoholic in my life.
(26:53):
I love her so much and there's things I trust thecrap out of her with and there's things I don't, and one of the things that she was able to do for me is she would text me and make sure that I had eaten.
Have you eaten?
Have you drank?
Have you done this?
Have you done that?
And she would check on me because she had been throughso much rough stuff and just doing those basic actions.
It was just really interesting becausethere's no way I would have been ever able.
(27:13):
Ever, ever able to trust an alcoholic like that pre programbecause I can trust her in certain ways and I know I can and there's ways I can't trust her, and then I also was able to just get through it one moment at a time and just really
just keep reading the literature and just really reachingout to people and not isolating because that's something I would tend to do is isolate and not take care of myself.
And so I did halt a lot, hungry, angry,lonely, tired, and then grieving.
(27:36):
but yeah, the skill sets that I've learned to program arereally what got me through and I'm really grateful for that.
I still have moments of grief, but Ialso do awareness acceptance action where I'm start becoming aware of the grief.
I know what it feels like in my body now.
And then I can.
I'll be, accept it, and I start accepting, okay, thisis how I'm feeling, and then I do something about it, and sometimes that's just accepting that it exists, But there's just so much good stuff that the program got me through, and I could go on for days, but I think I've been on for three minutes now, so I will stop talking.
(28:05):
Thank you.
Pete, thank you.
Thank you for sharing the experience you had withyour friend, who just showed up, who asked you Hey, are you doing the minimum to take care of yourself?
Because When we're in deep grief, sometimes we don't, right?
I don't remember to eat.
(28:26):
I don't remember to sleep so thanks for that, Pete.
Why don't I move on to Bruce?
Bruce Tree, my old friend.
I was thinking about and readingabout what you mentioned last night.
I was talking to him about how weird it feels to be ina new place, serenity, and yet still have very strong emotional ties to the troubled person in our lives.
(28:47):
Wanting to help, quote, them in any way we can.
It's a difficult line to walk for me.
My old behavior of trying to do for them things I thoughtwould help them behave the way I wanted them to behave.
It was so much more about having it my way.
Of having my life go along the story I hadwritten in my head and really less about truly helping them in their struggles.
(29:13):
When I realized that epiphany through the helpand the wisdom in the rooms, it felt awful.
I beat myself up for wasting so much of my time, again, itwas about me, and I felt useless to control the disease.
More work in Al-Anon led me tounderstanding that everyone makes choices.
Some work out, some do not.
(29:35):
I make choices, the alcoholic addict makeschoices, and it is about having the understanding and dignity to allow everyone their own choices.
With those choices come consequences.
Which we learn in the program to acceptfor each individual, you, me, them.
Again, lots of meetings, readings, talking withsponsors and friends, and still for me, there are days of grief and, quote, lost time, lost relationships, lost choices, and sadness for these things I believe didn't work out the way I had scripted them to go.
(30:13):
There are also days of magnificent serenity now, ofwhich it feels strange and awkward sometimes, still.
Other times the serenity feels wonderful, like awarm blanket being wrapped around me as I worry less about others, learn to live my life for me, and accept that I am worthy, I am worth it.
(30:34):
And deserve it, Bruce.
Yeah, awesome Bruce, thank you.
Thanks, Bruce.
It felt useless to control their disease.
Everyone makes choices.
Some work out, and some do not.
wow.
Yeah, I think about the time when my son, found himself.
(30:58):
I guess he said yes, so it was not involuntary, but itwas not really a choice for him to end up in a psych ward.
I'm trying to think about the feelings I had.
I think there was almost certainly some anger.
Like, how the hell could you do this kind of anger?
there was fear.
(31:21):
probably there was some explicit grief, butI don't know that I was quite there yet.
The loss of a dream kind of thing.
This could have totally derailed his lifeat the age of, what was he, 19 or 20?
My wife and I had fear that this was asymptom of a developing mental disease.
(31:43):
That, looked like possibly schizophrenia, which forsome reason often comes on around that age in men.
But in the moment, I was able to use my programprinciples to, as I've said before, do for him the things he could not do for himself.
And to leave him to do the things that he needed to do.
(32:05):
for himself.
To make his own choices about his life, going forward.
So, thanks for bringing that back, Bruce.
It brings to me this recognition that oftenfor me intermixed with grief early is anger.
when you get the five stages of grieving and somebody else,I think it was Molly said, it's not really linear like that.
(32:29):
you don't go through denial and then anger andthen, whatever the bargaining and depression and acceptance necessarily in that order.
But often those things are inthere maybe all mixed up together.
And for me, when it became clear that my parentshad dementia, I was like, angry about that.
Like why the hell does this have to happen?
(32:49):
why does it have to happen?
My mother for a good part of her adult life, herfear was that she would get Alzheimer's because her mother had it and there she was, and I could be angry
about that.
What is, Bruce's share bring up for you?
How weird it feels to be in both of those places.
(33:11):
How can I feel happy, relieved, serene, safe?
Yet, I played a role in this, Imade a choice that took me first.
Sometimes that hurts to think, she's hurtingmore than I am, let me love her to death let we love her sober, hug her straight.
(33:32):
As I've often said, doesn't work, man.
I did a tour of, stepping Stones aboutthree weeks ago with a group from YANA.
you were not alone meeting.
We organized a field trip it's such a powerful place.
And there was Lois's desk, the very first edition ofyou Were not alone with a knit cover around it in blue.
(33:53):
And the power of that location is just astonishing.
the little cabin up the hill where Bill W.wrote the book, which is called Wits End.
When, Lois would say, where you going?
He's I'm going to Wits End, I live at Wits End.
I'm at Wits End.
And that's where he wrote the big book, AA.
(34:14):
But I also, recall, the book that she wrote,which is called When Love Is Not Enough.
I have to believe that I can't love my addict straight.
So it's better that I just focus on myself.
Made the best choices I thought I couldmake at the time and then turn it over.
(34:34):
And what happens next?
I don't know.
I guess one of the tools that comes to mindthat you mentioned that I've taken to heart and carry around in my pocket change, is to try to not live in the wreckage of the future.
I don't know what tomorrow's going to be like.
I don't know what this afternoon's going to be like.
I'm going to go see her in the hospital this afternoon.
(34:55):
I know she's hurting and she's in pain.
And she's getting all kinds of things stuffed down hernose and injections and, she's on IV drips for pain and.
Man, it's hard to see, but I know she'sbeing cared for and that's a relief.
I long ago stopped being, counselor,therapist, doctor, crossing guard, chef, I can't do it and I shouldn't be doing it.
(35:21):
I can't force anyone else.
The only way I can push anyone is away, that comes to mind.
I can't force her to eat, I can't forceher to sleep, I can't force her to not do bad things to herself, I can't force that.
So, what I got out of Bruce is how weird it feelsto be in a place of serenity, but still have strong emotional ties to the troubled person in our lives, wanting to help them in any way we can.
(35:48):
Bruce sums it up, he sums it up really
Yeah.
Wow.
Thanks, Bruce.
I want to play this voice memo from Roberta.
Hi Spencer and Eric.
Thank you so much for reaching outand asking for outside input on grief.
It has been 36 days that my father has passed and I becamean orphan because my mother has passed before him and I have never experienced this much sadness and grief and anger.
(36:22):
Boy am I angry.
And I know that I can find relief if I jump intothe program with both feet and just hold my breath and be submerged by everything that I have known for the last 13 years, 13 years new in this program.
(36:42):
And I feel like a newcomer.
My heart is heavy, I burst intotears without knowing really why.
I mean, I do know why.
And then rage.
This rage that fills inside me.
And I know I'm safe when I'm home becausesomebody could say something to me at the grocery store and I might just go off on them.
(37:03):
And I know that's not right.
And I know I can get outside help.
That being said, for me right now, my outside helpis jumping into my program to the best of my ability.
Reaching out to my sponsor, reaching out to programfriends, reading the literature, getting to meetings, doing all I can to help relieve my sadness, my anger, my grief, and know that this too shall pass.
(37:34):
It doesn't have to pass in a flash, I just need tohave better control of my emotions and also live them, know, it's okay to have all these emotions.
I just can't act on the rage and I know that too.
I just wanted to share, that's where I am today.
(37:57):
It's a hard road.
It really is.
And it's okay.
this journey, as bumpy as it is right now, themore I go over it, the smoother the bumps will be.
Just like a path, right?
After a storm.
I believe that's in one of our readings.
So thank you both for opening my heart more tothis process of grief within our fantastic program.
(38:25):
Thank you.
wow, it brings tears to my eyes, listening to her.
She says, it's been 36 days since myfather has passed and I became an orphan.
I guess I'm an orphan, and I think my brother and sisterand I said that to each other when my mother died, you know.
(38:45):
Roberta also talks about things she'sreaching out to for relief, recovery.
It sounds like, she feels like she's in a place that shedoesn't want to be and she can't get herself out of there.
and reaching out to the program,friends and tools, is helping.
Thanks Roberta for, wow, just so powerful.
(39:07):
I want to actually close with an excerpt from pages,50 to 51 I think is approximately where this is in Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.
The more we apply the Al Anon ideas, themore changes we will see in ourselves.
Along with these new and excitingchanges may also come a sense of loss.
(39:28):
Loss of our old selves, our old belief systems, our oldways of living, and sometimes our old relationships.
It may seem strange to grieve for the parts ofourselves that led us to treat ourselves so poorly, but change, even good change, can trigger loss.
Letting go is difficult, even when what we'reletting go of is unhealthy or undesirable.
So quote, through this process of growth, I buried myold ways of thinking and the ways I treated myself.
(39:53):
It felt much like burying old clothes that no longer fit me.
Certain beliefs and behaviors mustdie in order for us to change.
Once we're ready to let go of these aspectsof ourselves, we turn to step seven.
In this step, we humbly ask our higherpower to remove our shortcomings.
Many of us have experienced a feeling ofrelease when we request our higher power's help.
(40:14):
As we let go of our old selves, we make room for the new.
After divorce, one member felt suicidal.
Then I realized it wasn't me, but partof my belief system that needed to die.
Our old coping mechanisms got us through some toughtimes, and for that we can be grateful, but it's also okay to say goodbye to those parts of ourselves.
Al Anon may not be able to give us back everythingwe have lost, but it can restore our sense of hope.
(40:39):
By learning to focus on ourselves, we find that peace andcontentment are possible even in the midst of uncertainty.
As we gain strength and self confidence,we find that we have loosened our grip on the dreams we once held so tightly.
Before long, we realize we're building new dreams.
An excerpt from Al Anon's Just for Todaybookmark reads, Just for today, I will adjust myself to what is, and not try to adjust
(41:04):
everything to my own desires.
We may always feel a certain degreeof sadness for the loss of our dreams.
I can occasionally glance over my shoulder.
It's alright.
It shows me how far I've come and howmuch I don't want to go back there.
We can look back but not stare.
Yep, we did one on hope as well.
(41:24):
Yeah, 40 something episodes, wehave covered a lot of topics.
Earlier I said I wasn't sure if we hadprevious episodes on grief, and I found two.
Episode 386, Loss and Grief, that wasa share I gave at an online meeting.
And 293, my conversation with Lynne, whichwas titled, Grief Can Be a Wonderful Thing.
(41:48):
we picked music, actually, we have a lot of songsthat we picked as possibilities for this episode.
Those will all show up in a Spotify playlist thatwill be linked in the show notes at therecovery.
show slash 429.
But the first one that I think we bothagree this is It's a beautiful song.
(42:08):
It's really hard for me to talk about it without tears.
This is Eric Clapton with Tears in Heaven.
This is a song that he wrote following the death ofhis four year old son who fell from a window of a 53rd floor, New York apartment of his mother's friend.
just a tragedy, and he turnedit into a really beautiful song.
(42:35):
I'll just quote a little bit from the lyrics here.
Time can bring you down, time can bend your knees,time can break your heart, have you begging, please.
Beyond the door, there's peace, I'm sure, and I know.
There'll be no more tears in heaven, but he's not there yet.
(42:55):
No more tears in heaven.
What a relief.
In this section of the podcast.
We talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
Eric, I think you've already expressed a lot of that.
(43:15):
what's going on in, in your life,in your recovery life recently.
Thinking for me, I talked in a recent episode about howI'm figuring out what is right for me in retirement, what activities, I want to be doing, et cetera, And this week I took the first step in restarting
(43:37):
one of those things, which is, taking care of myphysical body by, going to the gym and, doing some weightlifting and balance exercises that my body needs.
I was talking to a friend recently about aging and musclemass, and we both know that as we age, we lose muscle mass and that, for somebody at my stage of life, maybe it's not about creating new muscles, or not building my muscles up, but just keeping what I've got, maintaining it.
(44:08):
And that I think is a goal I can get behind.
Tuesday I went into the gym.
I met with my trainer who I hadn't seensince mid November before my surgery.
He walked me through some of the exercises thatI had been doing, evaluating where I am and, the good news is that I haven't backslid too much.
(44:31):
My performance has declined and I need to buildthat back up and the reason that I started with him was to get that sort of assessment level.
For him to say, okay, this is where you were, this iswhere you are, this is what I want you to be doing.
And then I went again.
on Friday, I'll be planning to go in Monday or Tuesday andthen I'll see him again on Thursday and then he's moving on to a new job and I'm going to have to get a new trainer.
(44:54):
I'm a member of the YMCA and they sell trainer sessions.
You can buy individual sessions, you can buyfour at a time, or I think you can buy more.
You get a little bit of a discount for buying four.
While I was there on Tuesday, I bought another fourpack, as I put it, because that commits me and I know that sometimes I need those external commitments.
(45:15):
So I don't know who I'm going to get as a new trainer . ButI know that I will have one and I'm committed to going.
An amazing part of recovery has been getting to knowmyself better and knowing that, yeah, I need commitment.
I need an external push sometimes to get things done.
(45:36):
And that shows up here.
You were like, Hey, Spence, I want todo this episode on grief and relief.
And I was like, that sounds like a great idea.
And then I sat on it for, I don't know, acouple of weeks, maybe not quite that long.
And then I said to myself earlier thisweek, I said, no, we need to do this.
we need to do it soon, and so I sent outan email to the group asking for shares, which we got, and asked you to schedule a
(45:59):
time, and here we Um, so those
external commitments really helped me to, to keep going.
So I think that's what I got for right now.
You want to add anything?
Yeah.
What I'd like to add is what I've done.
That has changed during this period of time ofserenity, but also grief, is tried to overcome that grief by doing more of the things I love.
(46:22):
So I've upped my meditation.
I've started going to these retreats.
I've upped my prayer.
I'm considering doing a trip withOutward Bound to hike Joshua Tree out in California, or sea kayaking down in Florida.
I went to a community theater in my localarea last week, which came to learn is one of the most active in the country.
(46:43):
I just happened to move about a month and a half ago.
And I'm finding all these interesting things thatare available to me that are so close now.
And it was opening night of Mystic Pizza,the movie, which made Julia Roberts famous.
And it was not an empty seat in thehouse, And, it was incredibly fun.
I'm having dinner with friends more, I'mgetting out, I'm going to go skiing on Monday.
(47:04):
We're doing a drum circle here locally in anoutdoor teepee with a fire pit the first Friday in March, I'm having a Super Bowl party tomorrow.
So I think I'm embracing for the moment, live and let live.
You know, my daughter has herown higher power and it's not me.
so I am trying to enjoy the life I have, with theloved ones that are near me and those that are around me and myself by doing things that I love.
(47:31):
And I certainly love cooking.
Having people over and going to live events.
So, that's what I'm doing.
Sounds like fun.
All right.
We always look forward to what's coming up in thepodcast and we've been off of our steps episodes for a little while, but we'll be coming back.
We still have steps eight through 12 to go.
And as always, we welcome your thoughts.
(47:54):
Please join our conversation, leave a voicemail or send usan email with your feedback, your questions, your shares.
Eric, how can people send us feedback?
You can send a voice memo or emailto feedback at the recovery show.
Or If you prefer, you can call andleave us a voicemail 734 707 8795.
(48:14):
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength and hope.
Of your questions about today's topic of grief and reliefor any of our upcoming topics, including steps 8 through 12.
If you have a topic you'd like usto talk about, please let us know.
If you would like advanced notice for some of ourtopics so that you can contribute to the topic, you can sign up for our mailing list, by sending an email to feedback at the recovery dot show, put quote email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
(48:46):
And as you might've guessed, our website is therecovery.
show, or there's other aliases that alsowork, where we have all information about the show, which is mostly notes for each episode.
Notes for this episode, of course,can be found at therecovery.
show slash 429.
There will be links to the books that we readfrom, the podcast episodes that we mentioned, other websites that came up during our conversation, and videos for the music, right on that page at the recovery dot show/429 I have also started adding a transcript of the episode into the show notes.
(49:28):
It's in a little collapsible box.
you have to click on the littletriangle icon to, expand it out.
They tend to be large.
Eric, you found this song called BeautifulBrokenness, by a duo called StoweGood.
What do you want to say about this song?
as opposed to in the past this oneI did very little preparation on.
(49:51):
I only spent yesterday for a few hours, I'm busy withwork, I'm busy with trying to manage my daughter, a little bit of help for her, not manage, but supply some comfort by running things down to the hospital.
She's there for much longer than she thought she would be.
Anyway, I just stumbled on it yesterdayafternoon, as you and I were talking about doing this today, I saw this, it just, wow, it looks like a room full of women from our program.
(50:18):
And they're all speaking about thissubject, and here are some of the verses.
Beautiful brokenness, love will always win.
Beautiful brokenness, that's how the light gets in.
From the shattered pieces of a lifetime tattered andtorn, something lovely rises up, and I've been reborn.
Day by day I wake to someone I have never seen, who'dhave guessed that I could ever love someone like me.
(50:45):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Now it's time to hear from you.
Janice writes, Hi Spencer, I'm a longtimelistener and love The Recovery Show.
I listened to number 428 today on my walk.
(51:07):
Heather mentioned she lives in LA, as do I, and thatshe attends an in person ACA meeting once a week.
I wonder if she would mind sharing the name, date,and location of the meeting so I can find it.
I am an Al Anon, and I relate strongly to ACA issues.
I grew up in an alcoholic family.
My dad was my first alcoholic.
(51:27):
Through my work in Al Anon, I have come to identifythat I have an inner child that I call Little Janice, and she is healing as I work my program.
I would really like to check out ACAmeetings so I can perhaps get into that, too.
By the way, I live in the Hollywood Hills, and whenHeather mentioned the fires, I related to that, too.
I'm glad she is okay.
(51:47):
Thanks for letting me know any information.
This was an awesome episode.
I love them all.
Warm regards, Janice.
And I did forward Janice's contact information to Heather.
I believe they got in touch.
You know, when I do that handoff, I don't generallyask to let me know whether that's happened.
And then Heather wrote, Spencer, I justfound time to listen to 427 with Misty.
(52:11):
It's amazing.
I am hearing so much that I need.
I would love to connect with herto have additional conversation.
Would you please forward my contact info?
Again, I'm so grateful that you entertained this question.
I know that many of us are supported by sharingexperience, strength, and hope on this topic.
Take care, friend.
Signed, Heather.
(52:31):
I forwarded Heather's contact information to Mistyand I hope that they have been able to get in touch.
You know, this is something that.
It just amazes me that it happens.
Heather asked the question.
Misty responded with her experience,strength, and hope as did others.
And Heather now is Oh, I love what Misty had to say.
(52:55):
I hear so much that I need and wants toconnect, what an amazing thing to happen just by me hosting this little podcast.
Janet sent an email addressed to Spencer and Eric.
She writes, Spencer and Eric, you have gotme through many nights when I cannot sleep.
When the demons have taken over my thoughts.
Thank you for giving me a go to and helping me to sleep.
(53:16):
Instead, I've drawn strength fromyour wisdom and exploration.
Thank you, Janet, for writingand also for supporting the show.
thank you Janet.
Eric, I want to thank you for the topic and forjoining me today for this conversation about grief and relief, and I just want to wish you all the relief that you can find as you, find it.
(53:42):
Thank you Spencer.
It's always helpful for me to do these with you.
I hope that someone out there can find somethingfrom my share that speaks to their life as we say, this is certainly speaking to mine right now.
I really appreciate your work, as always, inrecovery, and I wish you, as well, peace and serenity.
(54:02):
Thank you for everything you've contributed.
You know, we joke about how many episodesyou've been in, but it's about 10 percent of the total, which is more than anybody except me.
The last song that I'm going to talk about here, and like Isaid, there will be a playlist with a bunch of other songs.
This is from Warren Zevon.
One of my kids was a real WarrenZevon fan when they were a teenager.
(54:23):
This song is called Keep Me in Your Heart.
And it's from his album The Wind, which is thealbum that he decided he needed to make, when he found that he was dying of incurable lung cancer.
Knowing that puts a little extraemotional weight on this song for me.
(54:43):
One that I didn't pick, but which will be in theplaylist, is actually a Bob Dylan song, Knocking on Heaven's Door, because he was knocking on heaven's door.
But this song, Keep Me in Your Heart.
Here's some lyrics.
Shadows are falling and I'm running out of breath.
Keep me in your heart for a while.
If I leave you, it doesn't mean I love you any less.
(55:05):
Keep me in your heart for a while.
God, I don't think I can get through this without crying.
When you get up in the morning and you see thatcrazy sun, keep me in your heart for a while.
There's a train leaving nightlycalled when all is said and done.
keep me in your heart, for a while.
And the chorus is just keep me in your heart for a while.
(55:27):
Here's somebody who knows he's leaving.
But is saying if I keep him in my heart or if I keepany of my loved ones in my heart, they're still with me, even though they're physically gone from this world.
They're still with me in my heart.
Always.
I'll throw one more in here.
Speaking about songs that make mebreak completely down with love.
(55:50):
It's When I Look to the Sky by Train and I recordedit myself, with background music in my guitar and played it at my mother's memorial service.
It says, when I look to the sky,something tells me you're here with me.
The rest of the lyrics, I can'tread them, I'll start weeping.
(56:11):
Feel free to add that one, it's quite an astonishing song.
We might have four on the web page this time.
Again, thank you Thank you, Eric.
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
(56:33):
If we did not talk about a problem you werefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
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