Is Al-Anon Really for Men? A conversation – 437

In the latest episode of The Recovery Show, host Spencer and guest Patrick B delve into the question, “Is Al-Anon really for men?” Both men are Al-Anon members, yet they wonder why the program largely features a predominantly female membership. The episode was recorded aboard a cruise ship following the AA International Convention, where Spencer...

The post Is Al-Anon Really for Men? A conversation – 437 appeared first on The Recovery Show.

Episode Transcript

Spencer (00:00):
I'm sitting here today on our cruise ship with Patrick B. You wrote to me about the question Is Al-Anon for men?

(00:09):
Now we're both men.
We're both an Al-Anon, so feelslike the answer is yes, but I think you have some questions or issues.

Patrick B (00:20):
Hi, I'm Patrick.
Yeah, I wrote you and the question Iposed was, is Al-Anon really for men?

Spencer (00:29):
Really for men?
Okay.

Patrick B (00:31):
Is it really for men?

Spencer (00:33):
Welcome to episode 437 of The Recovery Show.
We are friends and family members ofalcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with theseemingly hopeless problem of addiction.
Understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our ownattitudes, and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

(00:55):
Before we begin, we would like to statethat in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we willshare our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today.

(01:16):
As you heard, Patrick and I had aconversation while on a cruise following the AA International Convention this year.
We did not follow the usual scriptfor a podcast episode, so there will be no lives in recovery segment, no songs and no listener feedback.
Here's our conversation.

Patrick B (01:33):
I'm looking at Al-Anon and I'm seeing 15% men.
And I'm thinking, men are as affectedby other people's drinking as women are.
And the disease of alcoholism affectswomen about as much as it affects men.
I go to several open AA meetingsand I see a good proportion of women at those meetings, so surely they affect some men somewhere.

(02:04):
So I'm questioning why are therenot more men attracted to Al-Anon?

Spencer (02:14):
Good question.
I just want to, share my experience,definitely many of the meetings that I go to or have gone to have more women than men, no question.
One of my home group meetings, I havea couple that I've done service in, so maybe they're both home groups, there's a fair number of men in that meeting.

(02:37):
The meeting really shrunkduring the pandemic.
We went online and some peoplewho had been regulars for whatever reason, did not make that transition.
For a long time there was acore of about six people in that meeting, three of them were men.

(02:57):
Cool.
Since then, we're growing slowly, whichis probably better than growing fast.
I was in a meeting recently,and some people didn't show up.
At one point, and I think somemore people came in after, it was like four guys and one woman.
So.
It can happen, but you're right.
When we look at the membershipsurvey, and I think that's where you're getting that 15% number from,

Patrick B (03:21):
right?

Spencer (03:22):
majority of Al-Anon members are clearly women.
When I listen to somebody likegive an open talk about, oh, I went into my first meeting and it was all these blue-haired ladies.
Right?
Okay.
I don't know if that expression is socommon these days, but in older women and the average age at which people come into Al-Anon from the survey, I think it was like 45, and the average age of people in the program is over 60.

(03:51):
So you also got thatthing going on, right?
So men and younger people.
So why, what do you think?
What's going on here?

Patrick B (04:00):
I know that, and I tell people, I tell newcomers that, that when you're looking for a meeting, if you see at least a quarter men to a third men in a meeting, to me that's kind of a litmus test that means that it's a good meeting.
Hmm.
Because men tend tofind the good meetings.

(04:24):
And go to those, not that women don'thave good meetings, but it's just that it's been my experience that when there's a higher percentage of men, then it generally means that there's a better experience, strength, and hope there.
Now why is that?
That's the question.

(04:44):
We do know that men are differentfrom women in a lot of ways.
And one of the ways we're differentis relationships and relationally.
Women are better at forming relationshipsand talking with each other.
Men don't talk to each other that much.

(05:05):
So if you have a program where itdepends upon talking to other people, and also men, we are programmed to be strong and independent.
And we are the ones to be theleaders and to be the, back in my generation, the John Wayne Kind of guy.

(05:28):
It's hard for an Al-Anon to recognizethat we have a problem and have a disease.
It's doubly hard for an Al-Anon manto recognize that we have something.
I wouldn't have gone to Al-Anon.
My story is I tried everything else.
I told my wife that we were going tobe happy when I married her, and she says, well, how do you know that?

(05:53):
And I says, because it's my jobto make you happy, and when I make you happy, I will be happy.
And she says, okay, I'll let you.

Spencer (06:02):
Says the proto Al-Anon here.

Patrick B (06:04):
Yes.

Spencer (06:05):
Oh, if I make you happy, then I'll be happy.

Patrick B (06:07):
And after 10 years, neither one of us was happy, but we both agreed it was my fault.
So I went through a lot of therapy,I went through a lot of other things.
I started out in another program andgot to the point where I said, oh, I can only clean my side of the street and my side of the street's full of potholes.

(06:31):
One time, not a burning bush, but Godspoke to me and said, go to Al-Anon, and I told God that he was crazy.
Because I didn't have, mywife wasn't an alcoholic.
My parents weren't alcoholic,her parents were not alcoholic.
And I said, God, I don't haveany alcoholics in my life.
I don't belong in Al-Anon.
And he quietly said,okay, go do more research.

(06:57):
And still nothing else worked untilI got desperate enough to say, I've gotta try something else.
Nothing else worked.
I tried Al-Anon and every time Iwas sitting in a meeting, someone say, well before Al-Anon, I used to do this and this and this, and I go, oh, I do that and that.

(07:18):
And then someone else wouldsay, oh yeah, before Al-Anon I did that and that and that.
And I go, yeah, I dothat, and that and that.
So every time somebodyspoke, I heard my story.
I knew that I had been raised by amother who was unrecovered Al-Anon, and I inherited the disease from her.

(07:40):
And who affected her?
I have no idea, but there were a lotof family secrets that never came down.
So I knew that I belonged in Al-Anonbecause that's the only thing that got me to where I knew that I needed help.
But why are there not more men in Al-Anon?

(08:02):
Has God not spoken to them?
I don't know.

Spencer (08:06):
I do identify with this feeling that as a man.
I was child in the sixties,came of age in the seventies.
And the prevailing societal messagecertainly was, men have to be strong, men have to be able to do anything.

(08:29):
I had a model in my fatherwho, in my young eyes, could do everything that he put his hands to.
He could fix things.
He could build things.
Looking back, I don't think I got a verygood education in relationships from him.

(08:49):
I see him as a loving father, butI don't think he ever said that.
So I get this message that, thatI'm supposed to be able to do it.
I'm supposed to be able to fix it.
I'm supposed to be ableto make things right.
So then I get in analcoholic relationship.
I get in a relationship with analcoholic, however you wanna look at it.

(09:09):
The relationship eventuallywas very alcoholic.
I'll just say that.
And, I'm supposed to fix it.
And it becomes pretty clear thatI can't fix it, but I keep trying.

Patrick B (09:20):
Right.

Spencer (09:22):
It took me a number of years after the alcoholism became apparent, before I was willing to give Al-Anon on a try.
The first meeting that I went to, andthat was my home group for a long time.
Had some men in it and wasa very healthy meeting.
I don't know what the proportion was.

(09:42):
I wasn't counting heads at that point.

Patrick B (09:44):
Right.

Spencer (09:45):
There were some people in that meeting with decades of recovery.
The meeting, centered on topicsfrom the book, how Al-Anon works.
Was a lead, discussion meeting.
Interestingly, at some point thisquestion about crosstalk came up and the group conscience never made an explicit statement about crosstalk, but there wasn't any.

(10:06):
And I think that was becausewe followed the model of the people who were already there.
You know, share once and shut up.
Also, it was a big meeting.
Before COVID changed everything, and thatmeeting actually split into an online and a in-person meeting after COVID.
There could be 60 to a hundredpeople in that meeting.

(10:29):
So not everybody gets a chance to speak.

Patrick B (10:31):
Right..

Spencer (10:33):
But it was very healthy meeting.
Emphasis on sponsorship, whichmany Al-Anon meetings don't.
I'm grateful that that was themeeting that I found on the recommendation of an AA friend of mine.
It's funny how our higherpower works sometimes.
I called this AA friend and said, youknow, I think I need to go to Al-Anon.
And he said, well, there'sa really good meeting.

(10:54):
It's right across the streetfrom me . It's tonight.
Would you like me to take you andintroduce you to a couple people?
and I said, well, I'llhave to think about that.
Good pre Al-Anon there.
You know, 30 seconds later Icalled him back and said, yes.
It certainly was predominantly women.
But it wasn't all older women.
Let me think.
Okay.
This was 20 something years ago.

(11:15):
I was in my mid forties.
There were a few people thatwere younger than me.
I do live in a college town.
I think that makes a difference.
'cause that's the other thing, right?
The younger people, I mean,during the school year.
September to April, we do geta fair number of younger people coming into the meetings.
During the summer, not so muchbecause they all went away.

Patrick B (11:35):
Right.

Spencer (11:36):
I went, I think, once or maybe twice, to a Men's Al-Anon meeting in town.
I did not find myselfidentifying with that meeting.
You know, I've heard a lot of women inAA say when they're told to stick with the women, like, I don't like women.
I don't know how to get along with women.
Well, I had that problem.
I didn't really know howto get along with men.

(11:57):
I think I felt more comfortablewith the women around me Rather than, a men's meeting.
But I do see a lot of people comein and then they don't come back.
And I don't know if that happensmore for men in the meetings that I'm in than for women.
In, this small meetingthat I'm talking about.
We in the last few months gainedtwo men and two women who are coming pretty regularly, you know.

(12:23):
That feels good.
Is Al-Anon really for men?
What is it about, is there somethinglike that you see in the way the program is structured or something that that also raises that question?

Patrick B (12:36):
Well, the disease of Al-Anon disease of relationships.
Yeah.
it's focusing on learning somebasic concepts about detachment and boundaries, and things like that.
it just, there's a large focus onthe peace and love of the program.

(12:57):
You know, when I go to say a new meeting,I'm immediately looked at suspect of, am I there to 13th step women?
You know, what's mymotive for being there?
And so I'm already under a clouduntil I've proven my point that yes, I am there to recover and to share my experience, strength, and hope.

(13:19):
and it's hard when, my primarylove language is physical touch.
And asking for hugs in a womenpredominant meeting is difficult because a lot of women have negative experiences with men physically.

(13:40):
So, yeah.
my question is, is it for men?
Meaning that Yeah.
it's seems to be more designed for theway a woman is built internally, than the way a man is built internally.
So that would be where Ithink, is it really for men?

(14:01):
I've been to men's only meetings.
And a lot of time, now not every time,because I do belong to a men's only meeting that is focused on the steps.
And every week we do it the next step.
And we're only steps.
Whereas if it's a straight topicmeeting, I have seen men's meetings, degrade into a feeling fest.

(14:25):
I now get to share my feelings and soI'm just going to bring my feelings out.
And I don't take what youlike and leave the rest.
I don't need to take that from listeningto another guy, share his feelings.
Harder for a man to feel accepted,I believe, in an Al-Anon meeting.
You get accepted in an AA meeting ifyou're an alcoholic because everybody is rah rah, you're here, you're finally

(14:52):
breaking through possibly, whereas youdon't get that in an Al-Anon meeting.
I don't get that in an Al-Anonmeeting, let me put it that way.

Spencer (15:00):
One of the things that I see about gender in recovery meetings and in particular in the AA program and the Al-Anon program, and this may be because of the fact that my wife is the primary qualifier in my life.
AA has women's meetings.
There may be men's meetings.
I'm not aware of them, of course.

Patrick B (15:21):
Right.

Spencer (15:21):
Al-Anon has men's meetings and I know there exist women's meetings.
In Alcoholics Anonymous, certainlyin the early days it was all men.
Right?
And like, do we let this woman in?
What?
Women are alcoholics too.
I think also one of the reasonsthat there's women's meetings is, you know, because of 13 stepping.

(15:46):
Mm-hmm.
but also, and I hear this from my wife,that men can dominate conversation, can dominate the exchange of ideas and, and experience strength and hope.
And that she feels she, she needs to bein a meeting where that's not happening.
When I look at the levels inAl-Anon above the meeting, and I have some small experience there, having been a group rep for a while.

(16:13):
Many of the group reps are women.
And thus when I go to Area Assembly, mostof the people at Area Assembly are women.
The last two delegates frommy area have been women.
Most of the officers atthe area level are women.
why is that?
You know?

Patrick B (16:31):
Right.

Spencer (16:32):
is it that in our society, women traditionally have more time available to do that kind of thing?

Patrick B (16:40):
Mm-hmm.

Spencer (16:41):
It's all very confusing to me.

Patrick B (16:44):
yeah, I agree.
In my area, in Georgia, let's see,the last, I think four delegates have been women and I think I can only name one that was a male.
Many years ago I would say90% of our trusted servants at the area level are women.

(17:06):
What also brought this to mind waslistening to your podcast and then other people that you've had on your podcast.
I started listening toAdult children podcasts.
And realized that there might besomething in that program for me.
I've started to going to ACA meetings.

(17:27):
And there are more men.
It's almost 50%.

Spencer (17:31):
Really?

Patrick B (17:32):
Yes.
I go to an in-person meeting andit's at least 50% men, if not more.
The women there seem more accepting,but they also have stronger boundaries.
They don't hug, much to mychagrin, but, that's the way it is.
So that's what got me thinkingwas why in a CA, which is a very similar kind of issues,

Spencer (17:58):
right.

Patrick B (17:59):
than Al-Anon.
Yeah.
Um, and it was started byAlateens that aged out.

Spencer (18:05):
Yeah.
And the primary one, whose nameI can't bring to mind was a guy.

Patrick B (18:11):
Right.

Spencer (18:12):
That's interesting.
I hadn't thought about it.
So now I'm thinking, well,okay, like equal numbers of men and women have parents.

Patrick B (18:20):
Right.
, Spencer: it's equally likely for a daughter or a son to have an alcoholic parent.
So the incoming populationseems more balanced.
You said earlier that you, you thinkthat there's equal numbers of male and female alcoholics, and maybe the statistics that I've seen are old.

(18:41):
But my understanding was that there'san inherited alcoholism tendency that shows up more in men than in women.
And so there is some skew inthe population that succumb.
It might be 60 40 or something.
Right.

Spencer (18:58):
Then you say, well, okay, who are friends and family of those alcoholics?
And even if you say who's married toan alcoholic, you might expect to still see, you know, the same number of men in Al-Anon that are married to women who are
alcoholics and women in Al-Anon who aremarried to men who are alcoholics, leaving out the children of, and parents of.

(19:22):
And there's parents, right?
I mean, one child becomes an alcoholic.
Both parents are affected,

Patrick B (19:28):
right?

Spencer (19:28):
Why are they not both coming to Al-Anon,

Patrick B (19:30):
right?

Spencer (19:31):
I saw that with some friends of mine in program, when their son was like going crazy into his alcoholism as a teenager, they both started coming.
Only the woman kept coming.
I don't know why.
You know, I don't talkto people who don't come.
I don't know why they didn't come.
Right.

Patrick B (19:48):
Right.

Spencer (19:49):
That one actually is like a really good question for me.
And it's not always the case.
There definitely couples who both come.
But it seems like frequently if onlyone of them comes, it's the mother.
That brings us around to aquestion that I don't really feel qualified to solve or answer.
Which is if there's something inherentin the way Al-Anon is structured in the way our literature is written, in the way we structure our meetings, in the way we behave in our meetings.

(20:20):
In the way we attract rather than promote.
Is there something we could do tohelp Al-Anon be more welcoming to men?

Patrick B (20:28):
Mm-hmm.

Spencer (20:30):
Because that, to me, is something, the only thing, that we could do to reach out to those men out there who are suffering as the husband, child, parent, friend,
of an alcoholic and are not coming becausethey don't think Al-Anon is for them.
I mean, I didn't come for a long time'cause I didn't know about it, and then I didn't come for a long time because I didn't think I needed it.

(20:54):
And I've heard thatfrom both men and women.
So that's not unique.

Patrick B (20:57):
Right.
It's the disease that tellsyou, you don't have it.
On both sides
. Spencer: Do You have thoughts on, on what Al-Anon could do?
I'm not even gonna say what we could do.
But if, if Al-Anon wanted to dosomething, we could be part of it.
Right.
what Al-Anon could do tobe not just more welcoming.

(21:19):
In my church congregation, centralvalues, that we work towards is what we're calling radical welcome, which means not only do you say hi, welcome,
glad to see you keep coming back, butactually take some time to understand the people that are coming in.
Be willing to be changed bythe people who are coming in.

(21:41):
Mm.

Spencer (21:41):
If you want to bring in people who are not just like you, you can't expect them to change, to be just like you.

Patrick B (21:51):
Right.

Spencer (21:52):
You gotta be willing to move a little bit, at least a little bit, in their direction, too.
I wonder if there's something in theway that a lot of Al-Anon meetings at least, are structured or who's there.
Is there something there that iscausing people who come in to say, well, I'm not like these people.

(22:14):
I'm not gonna feel at homehere, so I'm gonna go away.
That kind of informs my thinkingabout what might Al-Anon do to be more radically welcoming?

Patrick B (22:26):
Right.
You know, I have been pondering this fora few months and I've asked a couple of guys to say, yeah, you know, why does it seem like we don't have, and one guy, and now this is a sample of one.
So may or may not be true, but hesaid, he's an author and he had written an article or two for the forum.

Spencer (22:48):
Mm-hmm.

Patrick B (22:49):
And he said.
That his male voice of that articlegot neutered out of the article.

Spencer (22:58):
Interesting.

Patrick B (22:59):
So he vowed never to write another article for the forum because it, it had been so edited, that he thought it was not really what he said?
So I don't know how much.
Wow.

Spencer (23:12):
Okay.
Yeah.
That's extreme.

Patrick B (23:15):
Yes.
You know, the big book is notconference approved literature, but many Al-Anons use it and many men use it, because they find it useful.
Yes, it's from the alcoholic'sperspective, but that doesn't mean it's not useful for fighting our disease.
And there is the little known fact thatTo Wives and The Family Afterwards, chapters eight and nine are actually conference approved literature.

(23:44):
It is recommended not to be used becauseit's from the alcoholic's perspective.
Right.
And it's not from our perspective?
But it is in the male voice.

Spencer (23:55):
I could certainly see if, anybody feels shut down, not able to fully share their own experience, strength, and hope and in their own voice,

Patrick B (24:04):
right?

Spencer (24:05):
Turning that around, what if his article in his voice had been read by somebody who then was more able to identify with it because they were a man, and they, they were like, oh, there are guys out there who have this experience.
And I can identify with that.
This guy found help and maybe I can too.

(24:27):
I think there's a dangerin homogenization.

Patrick B (24:30):
Yeah.
Right.

Spencer (24:31):
Which is sort of what happened in his experience,

Patrick B (24:34):
right?

Spencer (24:35):
When you homogenize it, when you degender it, you potentially speak to more people, but you take out the personality of the person who's speaking.
And I think that is dangerous.
Here's an example.
In one of my meetings, we're readingthe stories in how Al-Anon works.
We got to a story that was aboutthe experience of a war veteran who felt that Al-Anon saved his life, literally saved his life.

(25:03):
He was gonna kill himself, and hewent to an Al-Anon meeting instead.
And my first reaction to thatnotice I said reaction, right?
One of the things we try to learn inrecoveries, respond rather than react.
My first reaction was I don'tidentify with this guy's experience.
He was a Vietnam War vet. He had PTSD thatwas causing all kinds of crap in his life.

(25:27):
And on top of that, Ithink alcoholic father.
I had to take a moment, and I had to lookat the feelings underneath the experiences and the actions that say, well, I identify with this feeling of despair and fear.
I can identify with those feelings.
Somebody who had a similar experienceto that man would probably, much more strongly identify with the whole story.

(25:55):
I had to say what partsof this to identify?
Because there's that whole thing about,you know, don't compare, identify.
Right?

Patrick B (26:01):
Right.

Spencer (26:01):
Don't find your differences.
Find your points of similarity.
And I tried to do that.
.At another meeting, we read a story by an Alateen, and that one also was hard for me to identify with because I don't have that direct experience.
That was hard to do in theAlateen story also for me.
Right.
'cause that's not my experience.

(26:24):
You know, I grew up in a home witha probably adult child mother.
I know that the male side of her familyhas a alcoholic lineage in her brother and his son, both self-admitted.
And so I you know, wonderabout my grandfather.
What I do know is that she had awhole bunch of adult child behaviors.

(26:47):
a lot of codependency.
Mm-hmm.
I learned my codependencyhonestly, at my mother's knee.
So, you know, I've got that, but Idon't have the experience of living with active alcoholism until I was an adult.
I'm off topic here, but those two storieswere powerful because of the reality of the experience that was described.

(27:08):
I feel like if you tried to take thatand generalize it, the story would lose a lot of its power and yeah.
So there's how many stories?
There's like 40 stories or something?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
You got room there to have some outliers.

Patrick B (27:24):
Right?

Spencer (27:26):
One person out of a hundred is gonna identify well.
And maybe that person doesn't identifywith any of the other stories.
The stories about the nun and the gay manand, you know, all of those other stories.
Those are in that book.
And that book was written inthe early nineties, right?
It was published like 95 or something.
It was, you know, the Al-Anon textbookwhen I came into the program in 2002.

(27:48):
So it took me a while to realize thatthere, there was what, 40 something years of Al-Anon where that book didn't exist.

Patrick B (27:57):
Right.

Spencer (27:58):
The stories in there speak in a voice that I can hear also because it's, it's mid nineties language.
It's not 1935 language.

Patrick B (28:06):
Right.

Spencer (28:07):
The forum comes out every month.
We should have some stories over here.
You can't see me, sorry.
Podcast listener.
Some stories over here and somestories over there and, and, and some right here in the middle.
You know, and I'm moving my handsaround and, and Patrick is nodding.
You know, I haven't read enough of theForum to see a pattern there and it, it is probably really subtle and you won't see it unless like you knew what happened.

Patrick B (28:32):
And this was many years ago.
Yeah.
So I don't know how current may, maybe,

Spencer (28:36):
maybe the editorial.
Yeah.
Uh, I, I do have the experience ofreading in one of the daily readers.
I was hearing it in a femalevoice until I got to a point where suddenly the gender of the writer became clear and it was a man.
I was like, well, that's interesting.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that says, my stereotypicalview of an Al-Anon member is a woman.

(28:58):
Even though I'm a man mm-hmm.
Even though I know a bunch of menin, in Al-Anon, that's still my stereotypical view of who's in Al-Anon.
And maybe I should be writing for theforum so I can put a male voice in there.
I don't know.
I put my energy into a podcast instead.
Right.
For what it's worth.

Patrick B (29:16):
I did think of something that meetings can do because most people don't realize that WSO puts out a men's welcomer packet.
item number K 23.

Spencer (29:29):
Which you happen to have one right here.

Patrick B (29:31):
I happen to pick one up from our LDC and it contains a number of brochures starting with al-Anon is for Men.
You know, I don't know any of my meetings,carry this in their literature and buy this packet as a man's newcomer packet.
Okay?

(29:51):
So

Spencer (29:51):
it starts with Al-Anon is for men.
Then we have information for the newcomer.
Does she drink too much from menabout the women in their lives?
That's a pamphlet.
P 62, A Guide for theFamily of the Alcoholic.
Okay.
Purpose and suggestions.
I don't think I've seen this one?
So you love an alcoholic.
I, I'm pretty sure I've seen that one.

(30:13):
Understanding ourselves and a alcoholism.
Al-Anon spoken here.
Of course, Alateens sharewith adults in their lives.
Just in case you're young.
The just for today bookmarkand Getting Started, Welcome to your first Al-Anon meeting.
But Al-Anon is for men,right there on top.
This is P one, like thevery first pamphlet.

(30:35):
Al-Anon is for men.
Yes.
Al-Anon is for men.
These are the headings.
Al-Anon is for familiesand friends of alcoholics.
Yep.
Okay.
A man's point of view.
Caught in a bind.
Many men feel that one of our primaryroles is to keep our lives and our jobs under control, to be sure that our family is well provided for.

(30:55):
Yet alcoholism seems to destroy ourability to stay in charge of our lives.
And I would add to that,parenthetically, this is me, not the pamphlet and everybody else's.
I needed to control everybody's lives.
Right?
It's up to us.
A sense of belonging.
Yeah.
Cool.
P one.
Okay.

Patrick B (31:15):
So it's K 23.
I don't remember the price thatWSO is charging for them now.
But contact your local literaturedistribution center and see if they have them and have them available at your meeting for when a man shows up as a newcomer.

Spencer (31:32):
I'm gonna go back home and I'm going to make sure that both of the meetings that I regularly attend order some of these and that we hand them out.
Well, if you're listening and you'rea man or you know a man who, no, I'm not gonna tell you to bring your man to Al-Anon, but you know, because we know how well that works.

Patrick B (31:52):
Right.

Spencer (31:52):
Uh, And you're not sure, Al-Anon has worked.
For me, it has obviouslyworked for Patrick.
I know a number of other men includingmy friend Eric, who's been on the podcast a bunch of times, who really have benefited from Al-Anon.
So for us as men, Al-Anon is for us.

(32:12):
You need to decide if it's for you, butdon't give up before you really understand what it's about and how it can help.

Patrick B (32:20):
And don't leave before the miracle,

Spencer (32:22):
whatever that miracle might be.

Patrick B (32:24):
Exactly.

Spencer (32:25):
I had a number of miracles , in recovery.
Starting with removal of rage.
Being able to deeply and honestlydecide to stay in relationship with my still drinking alcoholic wife.
She got sober.
That is not an Al-Anon miracle.
The fact that I didn't push her intoit, I think is an Al-Anon miracle.

(32:46):
Mm-hmm.
So stick around for themiracles 'cause they do happen.
Thanks Patrick.
It's, it's been uh, great sitting here.
The two purple haired guys on the ship.
Thank you Patrick, both for bringingup this topic, for being willing to sit here with me while we're, well, I mean, it's a cruising day, so there's not a whole lot else to do.
Anyway,

Patrick B (33:06):
we're at sea for the whole day.
Thank you, Spencer, for having me.
I'm honored that you had me on.

Spencer (33:13):
So what is your experience?
Why do you think there arenot more men in Al-Anon?
What might you or I do to encourage mento, as I've heard said, come all the way in, sit all the way down and stay.
The show notes at the Recovery Show slash4 3 7 will include a link to the men's newcomer packet that Patrick mentioned, from the Al-Anon online bookstore.

(33:40):
Thank you for listening andplease keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.