September 1, 2024 • 67 mins
Step Three states: “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.” We’ll be delving into this step, discussing its essence and sharing personal experiences. Step Three comes after acknowledging the hope for a saner life (Step Two). This step is about making a...
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Spencer (00:01):
Al Anon's third step says, made a decision to turn our will and our life to the care of God, as we understood him.
How do we do this?
Welcome to episode 416 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Jerry,Nancy, Janna, Brian, Ian, and Viola.
They used the donation button on our website.
(00:22):
Thank you, Jerry, Nancy, Janna, Brian, Ann,and Viola for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
(00:43):
So much depends on our own attitudes and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Mary C (00:49):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves, rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
Spencer (01:12):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today and joiningme today, welcome back, Mary.
Mary C (01:17):
Hello!
Spencer (01:19):
Our topic today, as you might have guessed, is step three, which again, says, made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
We're going to be following the, Sectionabout Step 3 in the book How Al Anon Works for Friends and Families of Alcoholics.
(01:41):
Going a paragraph at a time and then eachof us responding with our own experience or understanding of what that paragraph has said to us.
We'll start with the first paragraph.
Mary C (01:53):
In step 2 we came to believe that there was hope for a saner and more serene way of life.
In step 3 we decide to choose that wayof life by turning to a God or Godess.
of our understanding for hope.
I always like to say that this step is the hardeststep because to me this step highlights a lot of the problems that I have as an Al Anon which is I like to do and not reflect as much.
(02:24):
And this step is not an action step.
It's a decision step and there's nothingreally to do except to make a decision.
I don't know if any of your guestshave mentioned the three frogs thing.
Three frogs are on a log.
One decides to jump off.
How many are on the log?
(02:45):
Three, because they only decided they didn't do anything.
Yeah, this is a scary step for me because withoutthe foundation of step two, This step is impossible.
Unless I can believe that there's a higher powerout there that's going to restore me, I can't turn my will and my life over because that would be too scary if I'm not in control of my life, then who is?
(03:13):
Who is this higher power that'sgonna control my life and my will?
Not just my life, but my will too.
Not control it, but that I'm turning it over.
yeah.
Spencer (03:24):
I think, this paragraph really captures the essence of step three in two short sentences, or really one sentence.
We decide to choose that way of life.
Okay, I can go with that.
When I came to this step the first time throughand I was still fairly new in recovery, I had no idea what this God was, is, could be.
(03:50):
But the phrase, choose that way of life.
And what is that way of life?
It's a saner and more serene way of life.
And I wanted that.
I wanted to choose that way of life.
I just didn't understand yet what turning mywill and life over to the care of God meant.
(04:10):
and hopefully that becomes cleareras we proceed through the reading.
I'll take the next paragraph.
Some of us already have a comfortablerelationship with a power greater than ourselves.
Yeah, not me, but the concept of a God or a higherpower can be a difficult one to accept for those of us who have no particular spiritual beliefs and for those who have had negative experiences with religious organizations in the past.
(04:36):
Al Anon is not a religiousprogram, but it is a spiritual one.
Our twelve steps speak of a power greaterthan ourselves and a God of our understanding.
We do not impose a particular image ordefinition of that God or higher power.
Instead, we leave it up to individual members todefine these terms for themselves and define a personal spiritual relationship that allows them to benefit from what our program has to offer.
(05:00):
This paragraph really starts to address this question that Ihad after the first one, which is, I don't know what God is.
How can I turn my will and my life over the care ofsomething that I don't know what it is, you know?, and also, as I, mentioned in the step two episode, I had a negative image of the, let me say American secular God.
(05:31):
the guy with the beard up in the sky judging us,which is the colloquial image of God, and that was not something that I was willing to turn myself over to.
But it says here, we do not imposea particular image or definition.
We leave it up to individual members to define these termsfor themselves, find a personal spiritual relationship.
(05:55):
That gives me the freedom to move ahead withouthaving to accept a package that somebody else has put together, I guess is one way to put it.
So this paragraph gives me a little bit ofhope that maybe I can get through this step.
What does it say for you?
Mary C (06:11):
I also had a pretty complex relationship with my higher power I did believe in a being that was loving, but I also felt that that presence was keeping tabs on me and was going to punish me if I did anything wrong or if I wasn't perfect.
(06:35):
And if I didn't sacrifice myself for thosearound me, like all these beliefs about my higher power that were shaped by others and not by me.
I didn't really have any experience of beinggiven the freedom to decide for myself who my higher power is before I came to Al-Anon.
(07:00):
It was always imposed on meand told to me and taught to me.
And I was just, it Either had toeither believe it or not believe it.
And there was no, as we understood,there was no, as I understand.
And so, I really found it puzzling that you couldhave whatever higher power you wanted in program.
(07:21):
I found that puzzling at beginning.
In the years since I started, I've found thatto be one of the most valuable parts of program.
I love that we don't impose.
our understanding of our higher power on others.
And we give people the freedom tocome to their own understanding.
And I've heard everything fromreality to program, to my meeting.
(07:48):
to, nature and beauty, like so many differentdefinitions of higher power in program.
And I find them all beautiful.
And currently I find no need to convince somebody that,their higher power needs to be one way or another.
I do think that it's important to have a higherpower that is caring because we're turning our will and our lives over to the care of this higher power, and I also think that it can't be us.
(08:18):
It can't be me, because then to me, step three is aboutLetting go and asking for help and turning things over.
So I've tried my way for all these many yearsbefore I started program and it didn't work.
And that's why I come to program.
If I knew how everything was going to, ifI could control my life and to a point that it was manageable, then I don't need help.
(08:43):
I don't need to turn my will and my life over.
But, I do.
I recently had a conversation with somebodywho really didn't like that idea of the higher power not being something within them.
they wanted to define it as somethingwithin themselves, like a higher self, which I get that, that kind of makes sense.
But also then it's still me and I have a hard timeworking this step and the other steps with this concept of the better version of myself or like my ideal self.
(09:14):
Cause to me, it seems like still tobe like, controlling a little bit.
Spencer (09:20):
Why don't you read the next paragraph, which actually contains a lot of what you just said,
Mary C (09:26):
Oh, amazing.
Paragraph three.
Some of us have a very clear andspecific sense of a god or higher power.
Others have no idea who or what this power may be,but try to keep our minds open to the possibility that more information will be revealed in time.
For some, a higher power is thegod of our religious upbringing.
(09:49):
Others prefer to identify a very different god.
One who is more personal, loving, gentle, andbeneficent than the God we knew in the past.
We may find a power greater than ourselves innatural law, universal love, beauty, a mountain, or a thunderstorm, or the many wonders of nature, creativity, and any number of other sources.
(10:14):
Some of us continue to use the collectivewisdom of our Al Anon group as a higher power, noting that wonderful insights and changes take place when we avail ourselves of that wisdom.
The god of our understanding may be male or female, aninanimate object, disembodied spirit, or force of nature.
Spencer (10:36):
Again, this paragraph really speaks to my experience.
there is a little vocabulary lesson in the middle there.
I looked up the word beneficent.
It says, of a person generous or doing good..
All right.
I did not have a God of my religious upbringing.
I grew up in a faith tradition that encourages each personto find their own understanding of what spiritual means to them, what religious means to them, that may include a god.
(11:09):
It may not.
There are atheists in that tradition, and we all get along.
It's pretty amazing.
Good practice for Al Anon, you know.
what this paragraph gave me, gives me, is ineffect permission to say, I don't know what my higher power is, I can't describe my higher power, but I know that it, he, she, they.
(11:44):
is there and will give me guidance if I'mlistening, which I'm not always listening.
that's part of the made a decisionis, Oh yeah, I have to listen.
It also, we have this sentence, some of uscontinue to use the collective wisdom of our group.
(12:04):
That's certainly where I started.
I come to Al Anon.
I hear things in the group meeting.
I, Read the literature, and I started to feel better.
I started to change.
Changes were happening that, I hadn'tbeen able to accomplish on my own.
(12:27):
So right there, just making a decision tocontinue to attend and to listen to the wisdom expressed in the group and in the literature.
Wonderful insights and changes take placewhen we avail ourselves of that wisdom.
And that happened to me.
How about
Mary C (12:43):
Yeah, I love that you put it so simply as taking a step means deciding to continue to come to Al Anon.
Spencer (12:49):
That That is, one way to understand it.
Yes.
Mary C (12:52):
yeah, absolutely.
I'll have to say, I give much greater weight to this step.
And maybe that's why I find this step to be themost difficult, turning my will and my life over.
to me, that sounds so Definitive and, lifechanging and maybe it doesn't have to be that way.
(13:14):
it is a one step at a time thing.
And I have also heard it said that, every time you cometo a meeting, you're practicing steps one, two, and three.
And so in that way, for sure, step three can be assimple as deciding to continue to come to Al Anon,
which I actually did from the veryfirst meeting that I attended.
Yeah, I love how program says, you can be of any religiousfaith or none and you know the last sentence It says the God of our understanding may be male or female an inanimate object Disembodied spirit or force of nature.
(13:47):
It could be basically anything that you wantit to be But the step does say him, right?
A lot of the meetings I go to now actually gives freedom tothe member to use whatever name for God and whatever pronoun that the reader wants to and I have been experimenting with saying her or saying God instead of him or her and I've heard others say them and it's very interesting the
(14:19):
kind of responses I get like sometimes there are memberswho get quite bothered that I did not use the pronoun that was written in the step, and, they pointed out either to me or to the group, they want me to read it the way it's written, which I experience as a little bit controlling.
(14:45):
and, And I know that there's been discussion at the WorldService Conference and it's been voted upon, whether we want to have gender neutral pronouns in the steps.
It doesn't say yes, we've changed the steps, but it saysthat, our understanding may be male or female or neither.
Or both, and, it, it can mean it.
so I do love the freedom that this, paragraph gives us.
(15:06):
And program has led me to a place where I am alsocomfortable with that, I think at the beginning of program, when I started 14 years ago, I would have never dreamt that I would be a person that would read the steps with a her pronoun.
that's where life has taken me.
My understanding of my higher power haschanged a lot in the last 14, 15 years.
(15:27):
And, I do love that program gives me the freedomto do that, to have the understanding of my higher power change and grow as I change and grow and not be fixed to this one specific understanding.
Spencer (15:43):
absolutely.
with the question of what does it taketo change the wording of the steps?
My understanding is that it actually takesa super majority of all of the groups.
voting to change.
That the World Service Conferencecannot unilaterally make that change.
(16:03):
As one of our concepts says,
the ultimate authority rests in the groups.
It's a process that very much protects the core texts,
but it also makes it very difficult tomove with changing social understanding of,
Mary C (16:18):
Yes.
Spencer (16:20):
one of the criticisms that I hear from people and, a good friend of mine in the program, who grew up very damaged by the religion of his mother, He says, you know, it's basically a Christian program.
And part of that is things like capital H HIM
Mary C (16:39):
Yes.
Spencer (16:40):
stat.
Mary C (16:41):
It is.
Spencer (16:42):
that does, I think, act as a bar to entry for some people.
Mary C (16:48):
Absolutely.
Spencer (16:49):
I think that's why we have actually these three paragraphs in a row here about our understanding of what higher power or God is.
So I'm going to read paragraph four here.
But regardless of the God we come tounderstand, we are careful to avoid imposing our personal beliefs on one another.
Rather, we respect that each of us has a right to chooseany higher power that seems best suited to us, one to whom we will be willing to turn over our will and our lives.
(17:16):
Now we must make the decision to do just that.
I guess this paragraph makes the transitionfrom, okay, what is this higher power, God, that we're going to be making a decision about?
Transitioning us into that actual decision.
yeah, I think that's what I've got on this paragraph.
Mary C (17:37):
Yeah, paragraph five.
Deciding to turn to a power greater thanourselves for help may seem like a tremendous gamble, but really what do we have to lose?
We know that our old self-reliance anddetermination have led us down again and again.
It only makes sense to try another way.
(17:58):
what do we have to lose?
control right?
Mm-Hmm.
Spencer (18:03):
yeah, I'm reminded of the saying, my best thinking got me here.
My
Mary C (18:09):
Yeah.
Spencer (18:10):
best reliance on myself got me here, got me to this state of unmanageability and desperation.
Mary C (18:18):
Yeah.
Spencer (18:18):
But it's hard.
it's hard to let go.
And.
I am eternally grateful that the wording of the step says,care of, not say control of, it says, if I turn my will and my life actions, what does it mean to turn my life over?
(18:43):
it's really the actions that I take, to the careof this power greater than myself that wants the best for me, as we learned in the previous step, then I can still choose to take it back.
I can still choose to ignore the wisdom, the guidancethat I gain from whatever that higher power God is,
(19:08):
and see how that works out for me,
I think also the word decisionin this step is really important.
As you pointed out with thefrogs, I'm making a decision here.
I still have to take action toactually do that turning over.
Mary C (19:27):
Mm-Hmm.
Spencer (19:27):
That action for me is working the following steps, at least through nine.
Mary C (19:35):
Yes,
Spencer (19:37):
Four through nine are, for me, the steps that I take to actually implement that decision.
And I could stop at any point, but what do I have to lose?
What do I have to lose?
I have to lose, all the unhappiness and fear andresentment and frustration that I currently have.
(19:57):
that's one way to look at it, right?
how about you?
Mary C (20:02):
I was reminded of how attached I was to being right as you were speaking and for me, that is something that I'm definitely deciding to let go of in this step.
I think it was all driven by fear, actually.
if I'm not right, if I'm not perfect, if I don'tknow, if I'm not in control, then, there's this big unknown, then somebody else is going to control my life.
(20:27):
And, my attachment to being right was my unwillingnessto, to have my will be shaped by anybody else, I didn't want my will to be shaped by reality.
That's called denial.
And I didn't want my will to be especiallyshaped by the alcoholic for sure.
(20:54):
Like how dare they not do what Isuggest or advise or make them do.
I do acknowledge that I take this step back a lot,but I also see this step as like a commitment step.
I'm making a decision to turn my will in my life over.
I don't know why, but the image of a marriage comes to mind.
(21:17):
It's probably not that serious, but again,this is why I think this step is the hardest.
yeah.
I also am thinking though, that, my will and myhigher powers will are not mutually exclusive things.
And I have found that, I used to think Oh, whatever Iwanted is automatically not the right thing sometimes.
(21:41):
But that's not true.
sometimes higher power acts throughmy will and makes my will, their will.
it's mysterious, but I found that, more of my, what I wantto do is, the better thing to do, the longer I'm in program.
Spencer (21:59):
Yeah.
Mary C (22:00):
Yeah.
Spencer (22:01):
Which leads us actually into paragraph six.
So we choose differently.
We make a decision, a commitment, there's that word,commitment, a commitment to take all of our concerns and feelings, worries, fears, resentments, loves, dreams, wishes, thoughts, choices, and relationships, in short, our will and our lives, and place them in the care of the God of our understanding.
(22:30):
We don't have to figure anything out.
Know what the results will be, or even feelcomfortable letting go of our efforts to control.
All we need do is make a decision.
By making such a commitment, we stop settingourselves up for the failure we have known in the past when we have tried to manipulate people and events that were beyond our control.
(22:52):
Instead, we make the decision to turn it over.
You've talked to this a little bit.
You have some more thoughts?
Mary C (23:01):
that second sentence is so scary to me.
Because it gets down to the nitty gritty.
I'm taking all of my concerns, feelings, worries,fears, resentments, loves, dreams, wishes.
Thoughts, choices, and relationships.
I'm turning my relationship with my alcoholicover to the care of this higher power.
(23:22):
yeah, it means it all.
It means it all.
And, I think that is what is andwas scary for me about this step.
The flip side is that we're not responsible then, right?
If I'm letting go, if I'm turningthings over, then I'm not responsible.
(23:43):
And ultimately, we learned in program thatwe can't control what other people do.
And so the best thing that we can do is turn themover, to the care of their higher power, not to mine.
It might be similar, but, I love that concept thatwe have in program that, when somebody is doing something that we feel is hurting them, Program tells us, turn them over to their higher power.
(24:09):
Their higher power is caring forthem, much better than I can.
And as a parent, that's scary too.
I have two teenage boys and I don't know whattheir future life is gonna be like, it is scary.
And also calming at the same time, right?
Because I know that I can't control whathappens to them in the ultimate sense.
(24:31):
they could choose to do something with their life that Idon't like, or that might be putting them in harm's way.
But ultimately I can share my wisdom and my experienceand hope with them, but they're in the care of their higher power and I have to trust that their higher power is taking care of them more than I can take
(24:51):
care of them so I think this step helps us AlAnons, especially at the beginning, to really release the care of our loved ones into their higher power.
Because we can't control it.
We can't control it.
Spencer (25:07):
Yeah, boy, that list in the second sentence.
Mary C (25:09):
I know, right?
Spencer (25:10):
As I was reading that, I was like, this keeps going.
a lot of things here.
Mary C (25:15):
So many things.
Choices.
Spencer (25:18):
Choices.
fears, resentments.
Okay.
Worries.
Yeah.
But loves, dreams, wishes,
Mary C (25:25):
those are the hard.
ones to let go
Spencer (25:26):
are hard.
Yeah.
I got, you
Mary C (25:27):
for sure.
Spencer (25:28):
I, I'm at a point in my life where I know that some of the dreams that I had for myself when I was decades younger, are not coming to pass.
I still have some wishes for the next, however long I have.
Also, to some extent, out of my control, although theredefinitely are things that I can do and I'm trying to do to make that as long and as healthy as possible.
(25:53):
Okay.
we stopped setting ourselves up for the failure wehave known in the past when we've tried to manipulate people and events that were beyond our control.
Yeah, I'm on board with that one.
Um, if I can hear that guidance that, Hey, thisthing that's happening that I don't like is actually out of my control, then I don't have to put.
(26:15):
energy into trying to make it different.
and I keep coming back to this one, thatacceptance doesn't mean helplessness.
Acceptance means when I understand that something isoutside of my control, it then gives me the freedom to look at the things that are inside my control.
If somebody is doing something I don'tlike, I can choose not to engage.
Mary C (26:38):
Right.
don't pick up thee rope as they say.
Spencer (26:41):
don't pick up the rope, exactly.
so we make the decision to turn it over.
and at this point, again, we don't have tofigure anything out, know what the results will be, or even feel comfortable letting go.
All we need to do is make a decision.
Mary C (26:57):
Can I share something about, making a decision to let go of our wishes and dreams and loves?
I think what kept me in denial for such a longtime was this hope that my marriage was going to be the kind of marriage that I wanted.
And the fact that I married analcoholic, I wasn't gonna accept that.
(27:18):
and so that got in the way of meaccepting reality for a really long time.
but when I came to program, I learned that denial is partof the disease and I realized that I was the one in denial and that, led to me letting go of these expectations.
(27:39):
And dreams and hopes, wishes that I had for my marriage.
Currently, I actually do have the marriagethat I wanted, and it is with the same person.
he has changed in the last year.
he's been sober for, I don't know, Ithink 12 years or something like that.
He doesn't do any program or anything.
(28:00):
But he went through some healing.
He went through a healing journeylast year and he is changing.
He has changed.
And now we have this marriage that I alwayswanted, that I was holding on to, but it just came at a different time than I wanted.
I really wanted to make him stopdrinking so that he could be present.
And he couldn't be because One, he was analcoholic and two, he had depression and anxiety and he didn't want to be fully alive.
(28:30):
He didn't want to be dead, but hedidn't really want to truly live.
And, in this past year, he hasregained that desire to, to live.
And now I, our marriage is, the one that I've wishedfor and dreamt of, but I had to let it go before it became a reality, and I'm glad that I hung in here.
(28:52):
I think I would have probably quit ifit lasted much longer, but I'm glad that with the help of program, I did hang in.
And, and now I have what I want.
no judgment on anybody that decides that, theydon't want to hang on anymore, that everyone makes their the best decision for themselves.
So this is not a, try to convince anybody tostay in a marriage that they don't want to be in.
(29:15):
but the, my story is that, Some of mywishes and dreams that were on hold for a little bit, eventually they are coming true
Spencer (29:23):
That's wonderful.
Mary C (29:25):
thank
Spencer (29:25):
I remember somebody, I think it was an Al Anon speaker say, if you're in a relationship or any situation that you're not sure you can continue in it forever, Which sort of was my situation, early in recovery, when my wife was still drinking.
You can ask yourself, can I continue with it today?
(29:48):
And when you get to the day that you say,absolutely not, then maybe that's the time to make the decision to break the relationship.
It simplifies the question.
Mary C (30:00):
Yes.
Spencer (30:00):
can I do this forever?
It's, can I do this today?
And it goes right along with our one day ata time slogan, okay, next paragraph seven.
You wanna read that?
Mary C (30:12):
Sure.
It is much easier to turn over aproblem that is relatively unimportant.
Many of us find it easy to surrender the results of atrip to the gas station or what to eat for breakfast.
It can be much harder to let goof the things that really matter.
When trying to make a major decision, take an actionthat will have long term consequences, or trust that we will be cared for in the midst of a crisis.
(30:41):
It is tempting to revert to our old habitsof self reliance, worry, and force of will.
Such matters seem too important to risk.
Likewise, If we have struggled for years to preventthe alcoholic in our lives from drinking, it is no simple task to let go of our efforts and worries.
we may have to remind ourselves again and again thatwe have never been able to control the drinking.
(31:07):
To know the future in advance, To figure out theright decision or to worry our way to serenity.
So we must go somewhere else for help.
The only consistent source of help for matters that arebeyond our control is a power greater than ourselves.
And that is where we decide to turn when we take step three.
Spencer (31:31):
Yeah, I totally agree.
turning over little things.
is often easier than big things.
What's interesting for me is whenI was fairly new in the program.
And the first slogan that I picked up was let go.
Not let go and let god, because I didn't understandthe God thing yet, what it meant for me, but let go.
(31:53):
And I actually started practicingletting go of my wife's drinking.
So I was starting with the big thing,
Mary C (32:02):
Mm hmm.
Spencer (32:03):
but that's what I needed to do.
That is absolutely what I needed to do for my own sanity.
Mary C (32:10):
Yes.
Spencer (32:12):
And I didn't know what I was letting go to.
I was just letting go because leavingthe claw marks wasn't helping me.
Mary C (32:23):
You're getting dragged.
Spencer (32:25):
I was
getting dragged.
Mary C (32:26):
dragged.
Spencer (32:27):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Let go or be dragged.
Yes.
Mary C (32:31):
you heard the, not my pig, not my farm.
And, if you don't want to get dirty,don't be in there with the pig.
Because you're going to wrestle with the pig and get dirty.
I worry so much less now.
Worry wasn't really my big thing beforeprogram, but I did definitely try to control, I told my husband he couldn't drink anymore,
Spencer (32:53):
How'd that work
Mary C (32:54):
it didn't work.
So after program, I told him he could dowhatever he wanted and he continued to drink.
And, my story, after about a year and a half ortwo years in program, I did ask my husband to move out slash kicked him out because he was putting the safety of our kids at risk with his drinking.
(33:15):
And so we were separated for about three months andhe did find sobriety during that period and he moved back in, but it could have easily gone the other way.
and that was the thing with turning my will inmy life over was I was so sure that this was.
The will of my, loving higher power atthe time for me to kick my husband up.
Like it was so crystal clear to me.
(33:37):
And, I think that gave me the strength to do it.
Cause if I had doubts, I couldn't havemade such a, big decision, and one that might have had such huge ramifications.
but yeah, I was talking about worrying and how Ididn't really do it, but I did try to, control a lot of people, especially the alcoholics in my life.
(33:58):
So I shared earlier that my partner has, gone through hishealing journey last year and has been, alleviated from a lot of the depression and anxiety that he has been feeling.
And he actually, he also thinkshe's not an alcoholic anymore.
He's told me that he has a desire to drink.
And he wants to drink occasionally, likefor fun and not because he needed it because that's how he was drinking before.
(34:25):
And I have to say, I'm not worried about it.
And my response to him is, you do whatever you want, babe.
And I really am not worried about it.
I really Just think that he can do what he wantsbecause it's his decision and not mine and any attempts from me to try to meddle and influence his decision, I know is gonna have disastrous consequences
(34:54):
because that's what led me to program.
And so I, maybe I'll be crawling back to this show andreporting what a disaster it was, but he says, that he maybe will drink next year when he has a big milestone birthday.
And I really am just, can I sayreally again, like 50 more times?
(35:15):
I am at peace with it.
He can do whatever he wants.
And, who am I to say that he is.
gonna be a problem drinker or not a problem drinker again.
that's his
life and also I now have the tools to do what I needto do if his drinking starts to bother me again.
(35:36):
But, my spouse has shared with me that thesource of his drinking was his trauma and his pain, and now that he doesn't need it as an escape, he won't be drinking that way anymore.
So who knows?
this
is what
Spencer (35:48):
do the
experiment.
Mary C (35:49):
Yeah, he could do it, and we'll see what happens, but the main thing is that I am not gonna control that.
he can decide for himself without mental,
and other people can have other boundaries.
This is my boundary, right?
Spencer (36:04):
hmm.
Mary C (36:04):
if your boundary is that you absolutely cannot, have an alcoholic, have what you, your loved one or your spouse or whatever, if you can't be around any active drinking, then that's your boundary.
But I think Al Anon has given me enough.
serenity to be like, I can be happy whether thealcoholic is still drinking or not, like really is.
(36:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Spencer (36:31):
I highlighted this phrase, worry our way to serenity.
We may have to remind ourselves again and againthat we've never been able to worry our way to serenity . When I worry, it never ends in serenity.
Why would I think it would?
Mary C (36:48):
Right,
Spencer (36:49):
Oh my god, I saw that and I'm like, that doesn't work.
Now maybe I thought it would
Mary C (36:55):
yeah.
Spencer (36:56):
back in the day.
I, I don't know.
Mary C (36:58):
what about the phrase right before it?
We may have to remind ourselves again and again that wehave never been able to figure out the right decision.
Isn't that a crazy thought?
Spencer (37:10):
Yeah.
Mary C (37:12):
I don't know.
Sometimes my decisions are right.
Sometimes I figured out the right decision,but usually not in relation to alcoholism.
I think we do get decision paralysis at times, as partof the disease of alcoholism because we're so scared that we made the wrong, make the wrong decision, you
Spencer (37:33):
yeah.
Mary C (37:34):
that we are paralyzed by that and we become indecisive.
And the flip side is like making threatsthat we don't intend to carry out.
And I did a shit ton of that.
In my anger, I would decide the next time you drink.
We're getting a divorce or the nexttime you do this, all of this stuff.
And, and I think this step helps us let go ofthat, addiction to making the quote right decision.
(38:00):
and take the next right step, instead oftrying to figure out what one decision is going to fix all of my problems and yours.
Spencer (38:09):
Okay.
Paragraph eight.
We're almost done here.
Mary C (38:11):
All right.
Spencer (38:11):
Whether we have a well defined relationship with God or a vague sense of some intangible force I'm somewhere in that range, yes.
Choosing to turn our will and our lives over to God's caredoesn't automatically make all of our problems disappear.
We have simply made a decision.
But by doing so, we have opened a doorfor help and stepped out of the way.
(38:33):
We can only deepen our commitmentevery time we surrender anew.
Again, we're coming back to, yeah,we've just made the decision.
We still have to implement that decision.
And there's a strong recognition here that we'regoing to step back and step forward and step back and step forward in the last sentence.
Every time we surrender anew.
(38:56):
yeah, this is reality, folks.
Okay.
It's not a one and done thing.
It's something that we continue to practice with time.
And as we practice it, it gets better.
easier, perhaps.
and I don't think I have a whole lotmore to say about this right now.
Mary C (39:14):
Yeah, I don't think so either.
Let's go to paragraph 9.
When we take the third step and make thisdecision, we place ourselves in a position in which, no matter what happens in our lives, we can trust that we will be guided and cared for.
We are no longer in charge.
By placing ourselves in the care of the God of ourunderstanding, we put ourselves in much more capable hands.
(39:41):
Well, that sounds amazing, but I think that's,it's harder to do than just know, right?
we can trust that we will be guided and cared for.
we are no longer in charge.
much more capable hands, likethat's the thing though, right?
We take the step hoping that this God will carefor us better than we can care for ourselves.
(40:03):
But that remains to be determined and maybe there'sa part of our lives that we don't want to turn over because we think we can do a better job.
I do trust this.
I do have this general sense thatI'm going to be okay no matter what.
a lot of people ask me if I'm scared that ifour children will become alcoholics and I do not spend a lot of time worrying about that.
(40:29):
One, because worrying is not going to leadme to serenity, and it's a waste of my time, and I don't like to waste my time and energy.
And two, even if they become addicts or alcoholicsor whatever, happens to them, or me, or my spouse, or anyone I love, in an ultimate sense, I believe in love and that, higher power is taking care of me.
(40:56):
yeah, I do believe that.
I think it helps me become a much easier person to getalong with and be a child of because I have that trust.
I think if I didn't, I would, try to control everythingabout my kids lives and, Try to, make sure that it goes my way, but knowing that they also have a higher power that's taking care of them, helps me to focus on my own life and do more fun things like ceramics and hiking.
Spencer (41:26):
Okay.
we can trust we will be guided and cared for.
And I think one of the understandings.
that came to me as I worked my recovery programwas that although things don't always turn out the way that I want them to, I'm okay.
And I can trust that.
(41:48):
The other thing I was thinking about as we read this,by the time I got to step three, as I was working the steps the first time in program, I already had evidence of some higher power working in my life.
I was losing my rage.
(42:08):
You know what?
Hang on a sec.
I need to get some dates in my head here.
I still have the books.
Okay, so we started step three in October of 02.
In that time period, I had had several experiencesof receiving guidance from a higher power or of things working out in a way that I hadn't expected.
(42:30):
And I was able to use those experiences asevidence of a higher power working in my life.
And that gave me some faith , some trustthat if I made this decision, things would work out for me, at least in the long run.
Mary C (42:50):
Mm
Spencer (42:51):
and I think that, that helped me with this step.
That and the realization that I talked aboutearlier that I don't have to define my higher power in order to believe that I can be cared for.
Mary C (43:04):
Yeah.
Can I tell a story?
Spencer (43:07):
please.
I love stories.
Mary C (43:09):
This was many, many years ago.
I ended up on a flight that I wasn't supposedto on through a series of unfortunate events.
Like, I went to the wrong airport.
I went to the wrong car rental.
Like, everything bad that could havehappened, happened on this trip.
And on the way back, I was on this flightthat I wasn't originally supposed to be on.
(43:31):
For whatever reason, I was just really not bothered by allof these unfortunate events and mistakes that I had made.
And that actually cost me a lot ofmoney, but I wasn't all that bothered.
I ended up sitting next to this person who wasreading a book that clearly indicated to me that she was, like, looking for a higher power.
(43:54):
I think the title of the book was like, I don't know,searching for meaning, I don't know, something spiritual.
I sat next to her.
It was a short flight, like an hour and 15 minutes.
And My higher power, I remember distinctlywas like, tell her that I love her.
And I was like, no.
She's gonna think I'm crazy.
(44:15):
I'm not gonna tell this randomstranger that, God loves them.
I had this back and forth in my head.
With my higher power and of course, they won.
And I like sheepishly told this woman, Hey, I'm really sorryif this sounds really strange or whatever, but I have to tell you that God wants me to tell you that God loves you.
(44:38):
And she immediately grabbed my hand.
And I really feel like that's whatshe needed to hear in that moment.
We had a short little conversation about it.
And, there's nothing really more after that,she went on to another airport, I think.
I didn't keep in contact with her or anything, but that tome illustrates the kind of higher power that I believe in.
(45:04):
the higher power of my understandingis, somebody that loves.
And will go out of their way totell you how much they love you.
And ultimately, that's my understandingof my higher power is love.
And sometimes I do this two way meditation thing.
(45:25):
It's when I write a letter to myself,in the voice of my higher power.
I've only done this a few times because it's sopowerful to me and I get choked up every time I do it because the message I receive from my higher power is always just so gentle and loving and full of understanding and encouragement and support.
(45:45):
I talk to myself as love would talk tomyself and anytime I feel really scared.
or, uncertain of the future, which is, not very oftenright now, but, I'm sure there will be circumstances that come up that will put me in that place.
that's what life does.
(46:06):
but, when I write this letter from love to me,I know that I am being guided and cared for.
You know, for me, even thisprogram, that this program exists.
That there's like people willing to be my sponsorthat there's meetings I get I can go to any time, to me That's proof that there is a loving higher power That's taking care of me because I couldn't have set up
(46:32):
this program to support me, you know with this Familydisease of alcoholism and yet here it is and it's here to help me if I want it So so that's my story.
Spencer (46:43):
Wow.
Wonderful.
Wonderful story.
Let's wrap up this section.
course, we always, come to your songs that you chose.
So what's the first one?
Mary C (46:54):
The first song is lift me up by Rihanna.
This song came to my mind when I thought aboutthe step because the song is very much about asking for help and asking for what I need.
Which is to feel safe
To be lifted up at times to be held down to be kept safe.
Step three is very much about turning my life over to thecare of my higher power, and that involves asking for help.
Spencer (47:29):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
I recently was at a meeting where thetopic was step nine, making amends.
As I thought about, what do I want to share that day?
what am I inspired to share about?
In that meeting we read from the book Paths to Recovery,and it talks about living amends as one form of making amends, where if something happened in the past that you can't change, you can't fix, the only amend, and amend means, to improve, to make better, to fix.
(48:09):
the only real amend I can make is to not do thatharm to somebody else or to the same person again.
That's the way I understand this process of living amends.
You know, when I was yelling at my kids at thetop of my lungs, I can't undo that, but I can make sure I don't do it to them or to anyone else.
Mary C (48:34):
You try?
Spencer (48:35):
can try.
Yeah, I can't necessarily makesure, but I can certainly try.
Most of the harms that I've done,unfortunately, fall into that category.
I
can't fix it.
I can't change it.
I can't change that it happened.
I can admit to it, and that is thedirect amends part of step nine.
Like, yeah, I did this thing.
(48:58):
I'm sorry that I hurt you.
And here's what I'm doing to try to make sure thatit won't happen to you or to somebody else again.
And then I also thought about some of the waysin which I harmed myself, myself and my family.
and in particular financially for many years, we, Iwould say we lived in a sort of a fantasy financial world that, We were always going to have enough money for the things that we wanted and the things that we needed.
(49:37):
That's not true.
In consequence, as you might imagine,we racked up quite a bit of debt,
a large amount of it in the form of creditcard debt, which is the most expensive kind.
So as we were both progressing in recovery, wewere like, we need to do something about this debt, which was close to my annual take home pay.
(50:04):
Like it was a lot.
It was a lot.
We decided that we actually needed to take some money out ofretirement funds to pay that down because the interest and everything on the credit card debt was really significant.
so we did that and we expressed that as, hey,we're making financial amends to ourselves.
(50:24):
We didn't immediately change our spending habits.
We never found ourselves in as deep a holeagain, but it took, I don't know, probably another decade to really get out of the hole.
And the amends that I have to make continuing forward isto make sure that what we are spending is within our means
(50:45):
so that we never get ourselves back into that hole.
Mary C (50:49):
Yeah.
Spencer (50:50):
This also becomes harder, somehow harder, because our income source has changed now that I'm retired.
I don't automatically get a raise every year.
It wasn't automatic, and I think there was oneyear when things were really bad and nobody got a raise, but it had been pretty consistent.
over the last 20 years or something that I'd get atleast close to cost of living raise, if not better.
(51:15):
We're going to have to make that happen ourselves now.
so part of the amends is being more financially responsible.
And I'm glad that, we had some practice over the lastdecade or so of continuing to live within our means,
will, Make it a little easier going forward.
My wife keeps saying, I need to make a budget.
That word budget like triggers a fear response in my head.
It's not a rational fear response, but it's there.
(51:38):
and I have to let go and push throughthat, say, Hey God, give me some help here.
that's a lot more than just what I shared in the meetingbecause, I only get a couple or three minutes to share in a meeting, but, that's something that's on my mind right now.
How about yourself?
How's recovery working in your life?
Mary C (51:55):
recovery is working amazing.
I have the most amazing life.
I actually started saying that I have an amazing life threeor four years ago, and I didn't really fully believe it
I didn't really have what I felt at the time to bequote an amazing life, but I just started saying it.
It's actually true now.
(52:17):
I have an amazing life.
I have a job I like.
I have, my family, my spouse, my kids.
we had a family member actually come into our lives recentlyand she's, adding some, some drama to our life, but like an interesting drama, not like the drama that worries me, she, is somebody that, we've not, I've never met before.
(52:39):
She came back into our lives.
So very exciting.
I'm having hobbies.
I continue to do a lot of service.
Al Anon related, Our delegate came back from WorldService Conference and told us about the new policy that they implemented about group names going forward.
Any new meetings that have the participant type in theirmeeting title are not going to be approved anymore.
(53:05):
So this includes like women's meetings and men's meetings
and LGBTQ plus meetings and ofcourse people of color meetings.
there's a meeting that I started last year calledLet It Begin With Us, Women of the Global Majority, and our registration has been denied, and we appealed that decision, but they're sticking with the denial because of this new policy that says any new meetings cannot have these, things in their meeting names.
(53:36):
so no more, like, Women's MorningLight, or Men's Steps to Serenity.
I don't understand this decision.
I think it was the wrong decision, but apparently that'swhat's going to be applied to groups moving forward.
I do care about Al Anon a lot, even though Idisagree with a lot of the things that You know, things that World Service does and some of the things that are in our service manual or whatever.
(53:58):
But I am still grateful for recovery andI still go to meetings many times a week.
I guess an Al Anon, win is, yeah, not being bothered bymy husband's decision that he's going to drink again.
he seems not in a hurry to do this.
Like he's been saying it for the last, I don'tknow, a few months or something like that.
(54:20):
and, yeah, I am very grateful for my life, my,my beautiful life that I'm able to have because, partly because of what I've learned in programs.
so thank you.
Spencer (54:33):
Thank you.
Looking forward, we're still as we just did,continuing a series of episodes on The Twelve Steps.
in fact, I have a couple more people in, The near futurethat we're also still be talking about step three, because there are so many different experiences with step three.
(54:58):
and our one conversation cannotcapture all those experiences.
I knew that was going to happen coming in.
I think I had two episodes on step one.
we're gonna get through it inthe time that we get through it.
And I'm not rushing, I'm not saying, ohno, this has to be a lockstep, 1, 2, 3, 4.
(55:20):
I'm trying to do them in order though, just becausethat's the way my brain works, I've also got a step 4 episode already scheduled, So we'd love to hear from you.
We welcome your thoughts on the steps or other topics.
You can join our conversation.
Please leave a voicemail or send us anemail with your feedback or your questions and Mary, how can people send us feedback
Mary C (55:43):
You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show or if you prefer you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
(56:04):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope, oryour questions about today's topic of Step 3 or any of our upcoming topics, including the Steps.
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.
If you would like Advanced notice for some of ourtopics so that you can contribute to that topic.
(56:25):
You can sign up for our mailing list by sendingan email to feedback at the recovery dot show.
Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
Spencer (56:35):
Our website is the recovery dot show.
we have all the information about the show, which ismostly the notes for each episode, links to the books that we read from or talked about, videos for the music.
And there's a few links to someother recovery podcasts and websites.
I use Google Voice for the voicemail phone number.
(56:59):
It records at fairly low quality.
It's understandable, but rough.
I try to clean it up a little bit, but if I tryto clean it up too much, then it gets all weird.
And I really feel that for the most part, if you'reable to use your phone to record a voice memo and then email it, you're going to sound a lot better.
(57:20):
it's going to be easier for me to understand you.
It's going to be easier for theperson listening to understand you.
So I really encourage, Record a voice memo andemail it instead of using the phone number.
Now, if the phone number is what you can do, please douse the phone number because we do want to hear from you.
Also, if you can't remember theemail address, it's at the website.
(57:45):
There's a contact page, that has all thatinfo, including some information about being a guest host like Mary is today.
So that's all on the website at therecovery.
show slash contact.
All right.
That's enough calls to action here.
You've got another song for us.
Mary C (58:01):
Yes, the second song that I picked is What Was I Made For by Billie Eilish.
To me, step three is also about my purpose inlife and, Is my purpose to force my will be to be done or to let something bigger, come in?
So in step three, I'm giving my life and my will over.
(58:23):
And there's a line in the song that says,
When did it end?
All the enjoyment.
I'm sad again.
Don't tell my boyfriend.
It's not what he's made for.
I think that line, don't tell myboyfriend it's not what he's made for.
I think that's very Al Anon because it'sno one else's job to make us happy or sad.
but as Al Anons, sometimes we think, Oh,I'd be happy if only so and so did this or stopped doing this, or, our happiness seems to be contingent on another person's behavior.
(58:54):
And, I think.
Al Anon helps me take my life back,
my power and my control, back to my own life,which is the only place that it belongs.
Also, it helps me gain a senseof agency over my life, you know?
When I stop making my life be about otherpeople's life, then I have space, actually.
(59:17):
You know, create the life that I want for myself.
Spencer (59:21):
I've heard the saying that happiness is an inside job.
This song, if you have not watched therecording of her performance at the Grammys, I highly recommend that particular performance.
It's for me, was extremely moving.
Mary C (59:40):
Yeah.
She sings it so ethereal and her voiceis like really perfect for this song.
Spencer (59:54):
We got a couple of messages this week.
Calina wrote, Hi Spencer.
Your podcast got me through some very, very dark days.
When you say the seemingly impossible problemof alcoholism, I know I am in the right place.
I have found many episodes helpful when I struggledto process how my dad went from having a job, a home, and a family, to being bedbound, covered in bedsores in a rented apartment halfway around the world after he left to start a new life.
(01:00:24):
My dad has now passed and I am no longer living thecrazy life and I have stopped going to Al Anon but the pain remains and will be part of my life forever.
Thank you for your service, it is appreciated.
Calina.
Thank you for writing Calina
and if the pain remains you might findsome relief attending Al Anon meetings
(01:00:46):
in any case, I am grateful to hear that thework that I put into the podcast has helped.
Got an anonymous voicemail.
Anon (01:00:56):
Hi Spencer, I'm sharing anonymously.
I wanted to say that for years, the podcast has been awonderful, comforting, and brilliant resource for recovery.
Before I entered recovery, I listened to your podcastand it would encourage me to go to meetings and it would encourage me to perhaps begin working the steps.
(01:01:23):
I should start by saying I'm an active member, a gratefulmember of Esanon, and I do remember that there was at least one podcast where you and a guest spoke about S.
A.
and S.
A.
N.
O.
That podcast helped me to feel seen and I wouldlove to be a guest on the podcast to discuss S.
(01:01:47):
A.
N.
O.
N.
and the S.
A.
N.
O.
N.
program of recovery, which is of course rooted in AA.
It's the same program.
I also wanted to share that when I entered recovery,My sponsor and my grand sponsor helped me understand that working a program is different than going to a meeting or listening to a podcast or maybe reading some
(01:02:12):
literature, that there are four parts of it that areessential and just like the four legs on a table if one of these legs falls apart, the table falls over and I've known noticed that many times in my years of recovery.
The four legs of the table are, of course,ones that you know and practice, Spencer.
(01:02:35):
but if you're like me, one of these tendsto go and things tend to, to fall apart.
The four parts are going to meetings.
The second one, in no particular order,is working the steps with a sponsor.
The third would be prayer and meditation.
And the fourth would be fellowship.
I also wanted to share The last couple of episodes havereminded me of how vital and important fellowship and sharing, but fellowship itself, like sharing outside of meetings, helped me in my recovery and also protected me in a situation where I was completely unsafe.
(01:03:14):
One of the things that helped me in early recovery infellowship was to reveal to me that My qualifier at the time was in fact mentally ill and it wasn't for me to say whether the person was mentally ill and it wasn't for anyone else of course to say but it was just in fellowship.
(01:03:35):
It helped me know that my qualifier was not wrestling justwith addiction but was in fact wrestling with progressive mental illness and that violence and also, financial peril had become a part of, the story of this person's addiction.
(01:03:56):
Another thing that, that helped me in fellowship,was recognizing that the person who was my qualifier, was in fact not the only qualifier in my life, of course, as many of us find out, but that my own father was my original and first qualifier, that he had.
The disease of sex addiction and thathe also had the disease of alcoholism.
(01:04:19):
And in my years of recovery, my father, seeingmy own recovery, came to believe that a power greater than himself could restore him to sanity.
I didn't expect this to happen, but Ijust became emotional, realizing that.
And, yeah, my father, at this point, has,put together years of sobriety in aa.
(01:04:42):
And, I have also had some activity in theAl-Anon program, as well as, my S Anon program.
I thank you so much for your podcast andfor providing a venue for such incredible speakers, such deep and profound recovery.
(01:05:03):
and I am very grateful to you.
Very grateful for the shares.
Very grateful.
for the sharing the lyrics and and all of these ideasabout recovery that are so very valuable and so rooted in sanity, so rooted in serenity, so rooted in a commitment to recovery and a commitment to actually working a program.
(01:05:29):
Leaving you with so much respect andso much gratitude for your service.
Thank you, Spencer.
Spencer (01:05:33):
Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, and hope.
Especially, thank you for the metaphor of the four legs ofthe table, as it applies to working a program of recovery.
I'm looking forward to doing a full episodewith you as a guest, as you suggest.
Mary, I want to thank you so much for coming on and,and having this deep conversation about our experiences with step three, with turning our will and our lives over to the care of our higher power who cares for us.
(01:06:03):
Thank you.
Mary C (01:06:04):
Thank you for having me on.
It was a joy to speak with you.
Spencer (01:06:07):
chose the last song.
Which is one we've used before in thepodcast, Sweet Surrender by Sarah McLachlan.
And you can listen to this one andall of the music at therecovery.
show slash 416.
The couple of lines that stand outfor me is the line near the beginning.
(01:06:28):
The life I've left behind me is a cold room.
Um, well, yeah.
What more can I say?
And then the chorus repeats, Sweetsurrender is all that I have to give.
And then in parentheses in the lyrics it says, Who are you?
And I'm just like, I'm surrendering.
(01:06:49):
And this is my experience, too.
I don't really know who I'm surrenderingto, but I'm surrendering in step three.
Thank you for listening and please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them, too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
(01:07:14):
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
Al Anon's third step says, made a decision to turn our will and our life to the care of God, as we understood him.
How do we do this?
Welcome to episode 416 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Jerry,Nancy, Janna, Brian, Ian, and Viola.
They used the donation button on our website.
(00:22):
Thank you, Jerry, Nancy, Janna, Brian, Ann,and Viola for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
(00:43):
So much depends on our own attitudes and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Mary C (00:49):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves, rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
Spencer (01:12):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today and joiningme today, welcome back, Mary.
Mary C (01:17):
Hello!
Spencer (01:19):
Our topic today, as you might have guessed, is step three, which again, says, made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
We're going to be following the, Sectionabout Step 3 in the book How Al Anon Works for Friends and Families of Alcoholics.
(01:41):
Going a paragraph at a time and then eachof us responding with our own experience or understanding of what that paragraph has said to us.
We'll start with the first paragraph.
Mary C (01:53):
In step 2 we came to believe that there was hope for a saner and more serene way of life.
In step 3 we decide to choose that wayof life by turning to a God or Godess.
of our understanding for hope.
I always like to say that this step is the hardeststep because to me this step highlights a lot of the problems that I have as an Al Anon which is I like to do and not reflect as much.
(02:24):
And this step is not an action step.
It's a decision step and there's nothingreally to do except to make a decision.
I don't know if any of your guestshave mentioned the three frogs thing.
Three frogs are on a log.
One decides to jump off.
How many are on the log?
(02:45):
Three, because they only decided they didn't do anything.
Yeah, this is a scary step for me because withoutthe foundation of step two, This step is impossible.
Unless I can believe that there's a higher powerout there that's going to restore me, I can't turn my will and my life over because that would be too scary if I'm not in control of my life, then who is?
(03:13):
Who is this higher power that'sgonna control my life and my will?
Not just my life, but my will too.
Not control it, but that I'm turning it over.
yeah.
Spencer (03:24):
I think, this paragraph really captures the essence of step three in two short sentences, or really one sentence.
We decide to choose that way of life.
Okay, I can go with that.
When I came to this step the first time throughand I was still fairly new in recovery, I had no idea what this God was, is, could be.
(03:50):
But the phrase, choose that way of life.
And what is that way of life?
It's a saner and more serene way of life.
And I wanted that.
I wanted to choose that way of life.
I just didn't understand yet what turning mywill and life over to the care of God meant.
(04:10):
and hopefully that becomes cleareras we proceed through the reading.
I'll take the next paragraph.
Some of us already have a comfortablerelationship with a power greater than ourselves.
Yeah, not me, but the concept of a God or a higherpower can be a difficult one to accept for those of us who have no particular spiritual beliefs and for those who have had negative experiences with religious organizations in the past.
(04:36):
Al Anon is not a religiousprogram, but it is a spiritual one.
Our twelve steps speak of a power greaterthan ourselves and a God of our understanding.
We do not impose a particular image ordefinition of that God or higher power.
Instead, we leave it up to individual members todefine these terms for themselves and define a personal spiritual relationship that allows them to benefit from what our program has to offer.
(05:00):
This paragraph really starts to address this question that Ihad after the first one, which is, I don't know what God is.
How can I turn my will and my life over the care ofsomething that I don't know what it is, you know?, and also, as I, mentioned in the step two episode, I had a negative image of the, let me say American secular God.
(05:31):
the guy with the beard up in the sky judging us,which is the colloquial image of God, and that was not something that I was willing to turn myself over to.
But it says here, we do not imposea particular image or definition.
We leave it up to individual members to define these termsfor themselves, find a personal spiritual relationship.
(05:55):
That gives me the freedom to move ahead withouthaving to accept a package that somebody else has put together, I guess is one way to put it.
So this paragraph gives me a little bit ofhope that maybe I can get through this step.
What does it say for you?
Mary C (06:11):
I also had a pretty complex relationship with my higher power I did believe in a being that was loving, but I also felt that that presence was keeping tabs on me and was going to punish me if I did anything wrong or if I wasn't perfect.
(06:35):
And if I didn't sacrifice myself for thosearound me, like all these beliefs about my higher power that were shaped by others and not by me.
I didn't really have any experience of beinggiven the freedom to decide for myself who my higher power is before I came to Al-Anon.
(07:00):
It was always imposed on meand told to me and taught to me.
And I was just, it Either had toeither believe it or not believe it.
And there was no, as we understood,there was no, as I understand.
And so, I really found it puzzling that you couldhave whatever higher power you wanted in program.
(07:21):
I found that puzzling at beginning.
In the years since I started, I've found thatto be one of the most valuable parts of program.
I love that we don't impose.
our understanding of our higher power on others.
And we give people the freedom tocome to their own understanding.
And I've heard everything fromreality to program, to my meeting.
(07:48):
to, nature and beauty, like so many differentdefinitions of higher power in program.
And I find them all beautiful.
And currently I find no need to convince somebody that,their higher power needs to be one way or another.
I do think that it's important to have a higherpower that is caring because we're turning our will and our lives over to the care of this higher power, and I also think that it can't be us.
(08:18):
It can't be me, because then to me, step three is aboutLetting go and asking for help and turning things over.
So I've tried my way for all these many yearsbefore I started program and it didn't work.
And that's why I come to program.
If I knew how everything was going to, ifI could control my life and to a point that it was manageable, then I don't need help.
(08:43):
I don't need to turn my will and my life over.
But, I do.
I recently had a conversation with somebodywho really didn't like that idea of the higher power not being something within them.
they wanted to define it as somethingwithin themselves, like a higher self, which I get that, that kind of makes sense.
But also then it's still me and I have a hard timeworking this step and the other steps with this concept of the better version of myself or like my ideal self.
(09:14):
Cause to me, it seems like still tobe like, controlling a little bit.
Spencer (09:20):
Why don't you read the next paragraph, which actually contains a lot of what you just said,
Mary C (09:26):
Oh, amazing.
Paragraph three.
Some of us have a very clear andspecific sense of a god or higher power.
Others have no idea who or what this power may be,but try to keep our minds open to the possibility that more information will be revealed in time.
For some, a higher power is thegod of our religious upbringing.
(09:49):
Others prefer to identify a very different god.
One who is more personal, loving, gentle, andbeneficent than the God we knew in the past.
We may find a power greater than ourselves innatural law, universal love, beauty, a mountain, or a thunderstorm, or the many wonders of nature, creativity, and any number of other sources.
(10:14):
Some of us continue to use the collectivewisdom of our Al Anon group as a higher power, noting that wonderful insights and changes take place when we avail ourselves of that wisdom.
The god of our understanding may be male or female, aninanimate object, disembodied spirit, or force of nature.
Spencer (10:36):
Again, this paragraph really speaks to my experience.
there is a little vocabulary lesson in the middle there.
I looked up the word beneficent.
It says, of a person generous or doing good..
All right.
I did not have a God of my religious upbringing.
I grew up in a faith tradition that encourages each personto find their own understanding of what spiritual means to them, what religious means to them, that may include a god.
(11:09):
It may not.
There are atheists in that tradition, and we all get along.
It's pretty amazing.
Good practice for Al Anon, you know.
what this paragraph gave me, gives me, is ineffect permission to say, I don't know what my higher power is, I can't describe my higher power, but I know that it, he, she, they.
(11:44):
is there and will give me guidance if I'mlistening, which I'm not always listening.
that's part of the made a decisionis, Oh yeah, I have to listen.
It also, we have this sentence, some of uscontinue to use the collective wisdom of our group.
(12:04):
That's certainly where I started.
I come to Al Anon.
I hear things in the group meeting.
I, Read the literature, and I started to feel better.
I started to change.
Changes were happening that, I hadn'tbeen able to accomplish on my own.
(12:27):
So right there, just making a decision tocontinue to attend and to listen to the wisdom expressed in the group and in the literature.
Wonderful insights and changes take placewhen we avail ourselves of that wisdom.
And that happened to me.
How about
Mary C (12:43):
Yeah, I love that you put it so simply as taking a step means deciding to continue to come to Al Anon.
Spencer (12:49):
That That is, one way to understand it.
Yes.
Mary C (12:52):
yeah, absolutely.
I'll have to say, I give much greater weight to this step.
And maybe that's why I find this step to be themost difficult, turning my will and my life over.
to me, that sounds so Definitive and, lifechanging and maybe it doesn't have to be that way.
(13:14):
it is a one step at a time thing.
And I have also heard it said that, every time you cometo a meeting, you're practicing steps one, two, and three.
And so in that way, for sure, step three can be assimple as deciding to continue to come to Al Anon,
which I actually did from the veryfirst meeting that I attended.
Yeah, I love how program says, you can be of any religiousfaith or none and you know the last sentence It says the God of our understanding may be male or female an inanimate object Disembodied spirit or force of nature.
(13:47):
It could be basically anything that you wantit to be But the step does say him, right?
A lot of the meetings I go to now actually gives freedom tothe member to use whatever name for God and whatever pronoun that the reader wants to and I have been experimenting with saying her or saying God instead of him or her and I've heard others say them and it's very interesting the
(14:19):
kind of responses I get like sometimes there are memberswho get quite bothered that I did not use the pronoun that was written in the step, and, they pointed out either to me or to the group, they want me to read it the way it's written, which I experience as a little bit controlling.
(14:45):
and, And I know that there's been discussion at the WorldService Conference and it's been voted upon, whether we want to have gender neutral pronouns in the steps.
It doesn't say yes, we've changed the steps, but it saysthat, our understanding may be male or female or neither.
Or both, and, it, it can mean it.
so I do love the freedom that this, paragraph gives us.
(15:06):
And program has led me to a place where I am alsocomfortable with that, I think at the beginning of program, when I started 14 years ago, I would have never dreamt that I would be a person that would read the steps with a her pronoun.
that's where life has taken me.
My understanding of my higher power haschanged a lot in the last 14, 15 years.
(15:27):
And, I do love that program gives me the freedomto do that, to have the understanding of my higher power change and grow as I change and grow and not be fixed to this one specific understanding.
Spencer (15:43):
absolutely.
with the question of what does it taketo change the wording of the steps?
My understanding is that it actually takesa super majority of all of the groups.
voting to change.
That the World Service Conferencecannot unilaterally make that change.
(16:03):
As one of our concepts says,
the ultimate authority rests in the groups.
It's a process that very much protects the core texts,
but it also makes it very difficult tomove with changing social understanding of,
Mary C (16:18):
Yes.
Spencer (16:20):
one of the criticisms that I hear from people and, a good friend of mine in the program, who grew up very damaged by the religion of his mother, He says, you know, it's basically a Christian program.
And part of that is things like capital H HIM
Mary C (16:39):
Yes.
Spencer (16:40):
stat.
Mary C (16:41):
It is.
Spencer (16:42):
that does, I think, act as a bar to entry for some people.
Mary C (16:48):
Absolutely.
Spencer (16:49):
I think that's why we have actually these three paragraphs in a row here about our understanding of what higher power or God is.
So I'm going to read paragraph four here.
But regardless of the God we come tounderstand, we are careful to avoid imposing our personal beliefs on one another.
Rather, we respect that each of us has a right to chooseany higher power that seems best suited to us, one to whom we will be willing to turn over our will and our lives.
(17:16):
Now we must make the decision to do just that.
I guess this paragraph makes the transitionfrom, okay, what is this higher power, God, that we're going to be making a decision about?
Transitioning us into that actual decision.
yeah, I think that's what I've got on this paragraph.
Mary C (17:37):
Yeah, paragraph five.
Deciding to turn to a power greater thanourselves for help may seem like a tremendous gamble, but really what do we have to lose?
We know that our old self-reliance anddetermination have led us down again and again.
It only makes sense to try another way.
(17:58):
what do we have to lose?
control right?
Mm-Hmm.
Spencer (18:03):
yeah, I'm reminded of the saying, my best thinking got me here.
My
Mary C (18:09):
Yeah.
Spencer (18:10):
best reliance on myself got me here, got me to this state of unmanageability and desperation.
Mary C (18:18):
Yeah.
Spencer (18:18):
But it's hard.
it's hard to let go.
And.
I am eternally grateful that the wording of the step says,care of, not say control of, it says, if I turn my will and my life actions, what does it mean to turn my life over?
(18:43):
it's really the actions that I take, to the careof this power greater than myself that wants the best for me, as we learned in the previous step, then I can still choose to take it back.
I can still choose to ignore the wisdom, the guidancethat I gain from whatever that higher power God is,
(19:08):
and see how that works out for me,
I think also the word decisionin this step is really important.
As you pointed out with thefrogs, I'm making a decision here.
I still have to take action toactually do that turning over.
Mary C (19:27):
Mm-Hmm.
Spencer (19:27):
That action for me is working the following steps, at least through nine.
Mary C (19:35):
Yes,
Spencer (19:37):
Four through nine are, for me, the steps that I take to actually implement that decision.
And I could stop at any point, but what do I have to lose?
What do I have to lose?
I have to lose, all the unhappiness and fear andresentment and frustration that I currently have.
(19:57):
that's one way to look at it, right?
how about you?
Mary C (20:02):
I was reminded of how attached I was to being right as you were speaking and for me, that is something that I'm definitely deciding to let go of in this step.
I think it was all driven by fear, actually.
if I'm not right, if I'm not perfect, if I don'tknow, if I'm not in control, then, there's this big unknown, then somebody else is going to control my life.
(20:27):
And, my attachment to being right was my unwillingnessto, to have my will be shaped by anybody else, I didn't want my will to be shaped by reality.
That's called denial.
And I didn't want my will to be especiallyshaped by the alcoholic for sure.
(20:54):
Like how dare they not do what Isuggest or advise or make them do.
I do acknowledge that I take this step back a lot,but I also see this step as like a commitment step.
I'm making a decision to turn my will in my life over.
I don't know why, but the image of a marriage comes to mind.
(21:17):
It's probably not that serious, but again,this is why I think this step is the hardest.
yeah.
I also am thinking though, that, my will and myhigher powers will are not mutually exclusive things.
And I have found that, I used to think Oh, whatever Iwanted is automatically not the right thing sometimes.
(21:41):
But that's not true.
sometimes higher power acts throughmy will and makes my will, their will.
it's mysterious, but I found that, more of my, what I wantto do is, the better thing to do, the longer I'm in program.
Spencer (21:59):
Yeah.
Mary C (22:00):
Yeah.
Spencer (22:01):
Which leads us actually into paragraph six.
So we choose differently.
We make a decision, a commitment, there's that word,commitment, a commitment to take all of our concerns and feelings, worries, fears, resentments, loves, dreams, wishes, thoughts, choices, and relationships, in short, our will and our lives, and place them in the care of the God of our understanding.
(22:30):
We don't have to figure anything out.
Know what the results will be, or even feelcomfortable letting go of our efforts to control.
All we need do is make a decision.
By making such a commitment, we stop settingourselves up for the failure we have known in the past when we have tried to manipulate people and events that were beyond our control.
(22:52):
Instead, we make the decision to turn it over.
You've talked to this a little bit.
You have some more thoughts?
Mary C (23:01):
that second sentence is so scary to me.
Because it gets down to the nitty gritty.
I'm taking all of my concerns, feelings, worries,fears, resentments, loves, dreams, wishes.
Thoughts, choices, and relationships.
I'm turning my relationship with my alcoholicover to the care of this higher power.
(23:22):
yeah, it means it all.
It means it all.
And, I think that is what is andwas scary for me about this step.
The flip side is that we're not responsible then, right?
If I'm letting go, if I'm turningthings over, then I'm not responsible.
(23:43):
And ultimately, we learned in program thatwe can't control what other people do.
And so the best thing that we can do is turn themover, to the care of their higher power, not to mine.
It might be similar, but, I love that concept thatwe have in program that, when somebody is doing something that we feel is hurting them, Program tells us, turn them over to their higher power.
(24:09):
Their higher power is caring forthem, much better than I can.
And as a parent, that's scary too.
I have two teenage boys and I don't know whattheir future life is gonna be like, it is scary.
And also calming at the same time, right?
Because I know that I can't control whathappens to them in the ultimate sense.
(24:31):
they could choose to do something with their life that Idon't like, or that might be putting them in harm's way.
But ultimately I can share my wisdom and my experienceand hope with them, but they're in the care of their higher power and I have to trust that their higher power is taking care of them more than I can take
(24:51):
care of them so I think this step helps us AlAnons, especially at the beginning, to really release the care of our loved ones into their higher power.
Because we can't control it.
We can't control it.
Spencer (25:07):
Yeah, boy, that list in the second sentence.
Mary C (25:09):
I know, right?
Spencer (25:10):
As I was reading that, I was like, this keeps going.
a lot of things here.
Mary C (25:15):
So many things.
Choices.
Spencer (25:18):
Choices.
fears, resentments.
Okay.
Worries.
Yeah.
But loves, dreams, wishes,
Mary C (25:25):
those are the hard.
ones to let go
Spencer (25:26):
are hard.
Yeah.
I got, you
Mary C (25:27):
for sure.
Spencer (25:28):
I, I'm at a point in my life where I know that some of the dreams that I had for myself when I was decades younger, are not coming to pass.
I still have some wishes for the next, however long I have.
Also, to some extent, out of my control, although theredefinitely are things that I can do and I'm trying to do to make that as long and as healthy as possible.
(25:53):
Okay.
we stopped setting ourselves up for the failure wehave known in the past when we've tried to manipulate people and events that were beyond our control.
Yeah, I'm on board with that one.
Um, if I can hear that guidance that, Hey, thisthing that's happening that I don't like is actually out of my control, then I don't have to put.
(26:15):
energy into trying to make it different.
and I keep coming back to this one, thatacceptance doesn't mean helplessness.
Acceptance means when I understand that something isoutside of my control, it then gives me the freedom to look at the things that are inside my control.
If somebody is doing something I don'tlike, I can choose not to engage.
Mary C (26:38):
Right.
don't pick up thee rope as they say.
Spencer (26:41):
don't pick up the rope, exactly.
so we make the decision to turn it over.
and at this point, again, we don't have tofigure anything out, know what the results will be, or even feel comfortable letting go.
All we need to do is make a decision.
Mary C (26:57):
Can I share something about, making a decision to let go of our wishes and dreams and loves?
I think what kept me in denial for such a longtime was this hope that my marriage was going to be the kind of marriage that I wanted.
And the fact that I married analcoholic, I wasn't gonna accept that.
(27:18):
and so that got in the way of meaccepting reality for a really long time.
but when I came to program, I learned that denial is partof the disease and I realized that I was the one in denial and that, led to me letting go of these expectations.
(27:39):
And dreams and hopes, wishes that I had for my marriage.
Currently, I actually do have the marriagethat I wanted, and it is with the same person.
he has changed in the last year.
he's been sober for, I don't know, Ithink 12 years or something like that.
He doesn't do any program or anything.
(28:00):
But he went through some healing.
He went through a healing journeylast year and he is changing.
He has changed.
And now we have this marriage that I alwayswanted, that I was holding on to, but it just came at a different time than I wanted.
I really wanted to make him stopdrinking so that he could be present.
And he couldn't be because One, he was analcoholic and two, he had depression and anxiety and he didn't want to be fully alive.
(28:30):
He didn't want to be dead, but hedidn't really want to truly live.
And, in this past year, he hasregained that desire to, to live.
And now I, our marriage is, the one that I've wishedfor and dreamt of, but I had to let it go before it became a reality, and I'm glad that I hung in here.
(28:52):
I think I would have probably quit ifit lasted much longer, but I'm glad that with the help of program, I did hang in.
And, and now I have what I want.
no judgment on anybody that decides that, theydon't want to hang on anymore, that everyone makes their the best decision for themselves.
So this is not a, try to convince anybody tostay in a marriage that they don't want to be in.
(29:15):
but the, my story is that, Some of mywishes and dreams that were on hold for a little bit, eventually they are coming true
Spencer (29:23):
That's wonderful.
Mary C (29:25):
thank
Spencer (29:25):
I remember somebody, I think it was an Al Anon speaker say, if you're in a relationship or any situation that you're not sure you can continue in it forever, Which sort of was my situation, early in recovery, when my wife was still drinking.
You can ask yourself, can I continue with it today?
(29:48):
And when you get to the day that you say,absolutely not, then maybe that's the time to make the decision to break the relationship.
It simplifies the question.
Mary C (30:00):
Yes.
Spencer (30:00):
can I do this forever?
It's, can I do this today?
And it goes right along with our one day ata time slogan, okay, next paragraph seven.
You wanna read that?
Mary C (30:12):
Sure.
It is much easier to turn over aproblem that is relatively unimportant.
Many of us find it easy to surrender the results of atrip to the gas station or what to eat for breakfast.
It can be much harder to let goof the things that really matter.
When trying to make a major decision, take an actionthat will have long term consequences, or trust that we will be cared for in the midst of a crisis.
(30:41):
It is tempting to revert to our old habitsof self reliance, worry, and force of will.
Such matters seem too important to risk.
Likewise, If we have struggled for years to preventthe alcoholic in our lives from drinking, it is no simple task to let go of our efforts and worries.
we may have to remind ourselves again and again thatwe have never been able to control the drinking.
(31:07):
To know the future in advance, To figure out theright decision or to worry our way to serenity.
So we must go somewhere else for help.
The only consistent source of help for matters that arebeyond our control is a power greater than ourselves.
And that is where we decide to turn when we take step three.
Spencer (31:31):
Yeah, I totally agree.
turning over little things.
is often easier than big things.
What's interesting for me is whenI was fairly new in the program.
And the first slogan that I picked up was let go.
Not let go and let god, because I didn't understandthe God thing yet, what it meant for me, but let go.
(31:53):
And I actually started practicingletting go of my wife's drinking.
So I was starting with the big thing,
Mary C (32:02):
Mm hmm.
Spencer (32:03):
but that's what I needed to do.
That is absolutely what I needed to do for my own sanity.
Mary C (32:10):
Yes.
Spencer (32:12):
And I didn't know what I was letting go to.
I was just letting go because leavingthe claw marks wasn't helping me.
Mary C (32:23):
You're getting dragged.
Spencer (32:25):
I was
getting dragged.
Mary C (32:26):
dragged.
Spencer (32:27):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Let go or be dragged.
Yes.
Mary C (32:31):
you heard the, not my pig, not my farm.
And, if you don't want to get dirty,don't be in there with the pig.
Because you're going to wrestle with the pig and get dirty.
I worry so much less now.
Worry wasn't really my big thing beforeprogram, but I did definitely try to control, I told my husband he couldn't drink anymore,
Spencer (32:53):
How'd that work
Mary C (32:54):
it didn't work.
So after program, I told him he could dowhatever he wanted and he continued to drink.
And, my story, after about a year and a half ortwo years in program, I did ask my husband to move out slash kicked him out because he was putting the safety of our kids at risk with his drinking.
(33:15):
And so we were separated for about three months andhe did find sobriety during that period and he moved back in, but it could have easily gone the other way.
and that was the thing with turning my will inmy life over was I was so sure that this was.
The will of my, loving higher power atthe time for me to kick my husband up.
Like it was so crystal clear to me.
(33:37):
And, I think that gave me the strength to do it.
Cause if I had doubts, I couldn't havemade such a, big decision, and one that might have had such huge ramifications.
but yeah, I was talking about worrying and how Ididn't really do it, but I did try to, control a lot of people, especially the alcoholics in my life.
(33:58):
So I shared earlier that my partner has, gone through hishealing journey last year and has been, alleviated from a lot of the depression and anxiety that he has been feeling.
And he actually, he also thinkshe's not an alcoholic anymore.
He's told me that he has a desire to drink.
And he wants to drink occasionally, likefor fun and not because he needed it because that's how he was drinking before.
(34:25):
And I have to say, I'm not worried about it.
And my response to him is, you do whatever you want, babe.
And I really am not worried about it.
I really Just think that he can do what he wantsbecause it's his decision and not mine and any attempts from me to try to meddle and influence his decision, I know is gonna have disastrous consequences
(34:54):
because that's what led me to program.
And so I, maybe I'll be crawling back to this show andreporting what a disaster it was, but he says, that he maybe will drink next year when he has a big milestone birthday.
And I really am just, can I sayreally again, like 50 more times?
(35:15):
I am at peace with it.
He can do whatever he wants.
And, who am I to say that he is.
gonna be a problem drinker or not a problem drinker again.
that's his
life and also I now have the tools to do what I needto do if his drinking starts to bother me again.
(35:36):
But, my spouse has shared with me that thesource of his drinking was his trauma and his pain, and now that he doesn't need it as an escape, he won't be drinking that way anymore.
So who knows?
this
is what
Spencer (35:48):
do the
experiment.
Mary C (35:49):
Yeah, he could do it, and we'll see what happens, but the main thing is that I am not gonna control that.
he can decide for himself without mental,
and other people can have other boundaries.
This is my boundary, right?
Spencer (36:04):
hmm.
Mary C (36:04):
if your boundary is that you absolutely cannot, have an alcoholic, have what you, your loved one or your spouse or whatever, if you can't be around any active drinking, then that's your boundary.
But I think Al Anon has given me enough.
serenity to be like, I can be happy whether thealcoholic is still drinking or not, like really is.
(36:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Spencer (36:31):
I highlighted this phrase, worry our way to serenity.
We may have to remind ourselves again and againthat we've never been able to worry our way to serenity . When I worry, it never ends in serenity.
Why would I think it would?
Mary C (36:48):
Right,
Spencer (36:49):
Oh my god, I saw that and I'm like, that doesn't work.
Now maybe I thought it would
Mary C (36:55):
yeah.
Spencer (36:56):
back in the day.
I, I don't know.
Mary C (36:58):
what about the phrase right before it?
We may have to remind ourselves again and again that wehave never been able to figure out the right decision.
Isn't that a crazy thought?
Spencer (37:10):
Yeah.
Mary C (37:12):
I don't know.
Sometimes my decisions are right.
Sometimes I figured out the right decision,but usually not in relation to alcoholism.
I think we do get decision paralysis at times, as partof the disease of alcoholism because we're so scared that we made the wrong, make the wrong decision, you
Spencer (37:33):
yeah.
Mary C (37:34):
that we are paralyzed by that and we become indecisive.
And the flip side is like making threatsthat we don't intend to carry out.
And I did a shit ton of that.
In my anger, I would decide the next time you drink.
We're getting a divorce or the nexttime you do this, all of this stuff.
And, and I think this step helps us let go ofthat, addiction to making the quote right decision.
(38:00):
and take the next right step, instead oftrying to figure out what one decision is going to fix all of my problems and yours.
Spencer (38:09):
Okay.
Paragraph eight.
We're almost done here.
Mary C (38:11):
All right.
Spencer (38:11):
Whether we have a well defined relationship with God or a vague sense of some intangible force I'm somewhere in that range, yes.
Choosing to turn our will and our lives over to God's caredoesn't automatically make all of our problems disappear.
We have simply made a decision.
But by doing so, we have opened a doorfor help and stepped out of the way.
(38:33):
We can only deepen our commitmentevery time we surrender anew.
Again, we're coming back to, yeah,we've just made the decision.
We still have to implement that decision.
And there's a strong recognition here that we'regoing to step back and step forward and step back and step forward in the last sentence.
Every time we surrender anew.
(38:56):
yeah, this is reality, folks.
Okay.
It's not a one and done thing.
It's something that we continue to practice with time.
And as we practice it, it gets better.
easier, perhaps.
and I don't think I have a whole lotmore to say about this right now.
Mary C (39:14):
Yeah, I don't think so either.
Let's go to paragraph 9.
When we take the third step and make thisdecision, we place ourselves in a position in which, no matter what happens in our lives, we can trust that we will be guided and cared for.
We are no longer in charge.
By placing ourselves in the care of the God of ourunderstanding, we put ourselves in much more capable hands.
(39:41):
Well, that sounds amazing, but I think that's,it's harder to do than just know, right?
we can trust that we will be guided and cared for.
we are no longer in charge.
much more capable hands, likethat's the thing though, right?
We take the step hoping that this God will carefor us better than we can care for ourselves.
(40:03):
But that remains to be determined and maybe there'sa part of our lives that we don't want to turn over because we think we can do a better job.
I do trust this.
I do have this general sense thatI'm going to be okay no matter what.
a lot of people ask me if I'm scared that ifour children will become alcoholics and I do not spend a lot of time worrying about that.
(40:29):
One, because worrying is not going to leadme to serenity, and it's a waste of my time, and I don't like to waste my time and energy.
And two, even if they become addicts or alcoholicsor whatever, happens to them, or me, or my spouse, or anyone I love, in an ultimate sense, I believe in love and that, higher power is taking care of me.
(40:56):
yeah, I do believe that.
I think it helps me become a much easier person to getalong with and be a child of because I have that trust.
I think if I didn't, I would, try to control everythingabout my kids lives and, Try to, make sure that it goes my way, but knowing that they also have a higher power that's taking care of them, helps me to focus on my own life and do more fun things like ceramics and hiking.
Spencer (41:26):
Okay.
we can trust we will be guided and cared for.
And I think one of the understandings.
that came to me as I worked my recovery programwas that although things don't always turn out the way that I want them to, I'm okay.
And I can trust that.
(41:48):
The other thing I was thinking about as we read this,by the time I got to step three, as I was working the steps the first time in program, I already had evidence of some higher power working in my life.
I was losing my rage.
(42:08):
You know what?
Hang on a sec.
I need to get some dates in my head here.
I still have the books.
Okay, so we started step three in October of 02.
In that time period, I had had several experiencesof receiving guidance from a higher power or of things working out in a way that I hadn't expected.
(42:30):
And I was able to use those experiences asevidence of a higher power working in my life.
And that gave me some faith , some trustthat if I made this decision, things would work out for me, at least in the long run.
Mary C (42:50):
Mm
Spencer (42:51):
and I think that, that helped me with this step.
That and the realization that I talked aboutearlier that I don't have to define my higher power in order to believe that I can be cared for.
Mary C (43:04):
Yeah.
Can I tell a story?
Spencer (43:07):
please.
I love stories.
Mary C (43:09):
This was many, many years ago.
I ended up on a flight that I wasn't supposedto on through a series of unfortunate events.
Like, I went to the wrong airport.
I went to the wrong car rental.
Like, everything bad that could havehappened, happened on this trip.
And on the way back, I was on this flightthat I wasn't originally supposed to be on.
(43:31):
For whatever reason, I was just really not bothered by allof these unfortunate events and mistakes that I had made.
And that actually cost me a lot ofmoney, but I wasn't all that bothered.
I ended up sitting next to this person who wasreading a book that clearly indicated to me that she was, like, looking for a higher power.
(43:54):
I think the title of the book was like, I don't know,searching for meaning, I don't know, something spiritual.
I sat next to her.
It was a short flight, like an hour and 15 minutes.
And My higher power, I remember distinctlywas like, tell her that I love her.
And I was like, no.
She's gonna think I'm crazy.
(44:15):
I'm not gonna tell this randomstranger that, God loves them.
I had this back and forth in my head.
With my higher power and of course, they won.
And I like sheepishly told this woman, Hey, I'm really sorryif this sounds really strange or whatever, but I have to tell you that God wants me to tell you that God loves you.
(44:38):
And she immediately grabbed my hand.
And I really feel like that's whatshe needed to hear in that moment.
We had a short little conversation about it.
And, there's nothing really more after that,she went on to another airport, I think.
I didn't keep in contact with her or anything, but that tome illustrates the kind of higher power that I believe in.
(45:04):
the higher power of my understandingis, somebody that loves.
And will go out of their way totell you how much they love you.
And ultimately, that's my understandingof my higher power is love.
And sometimes I do this two way meditation thing.
(45:25):
It's when I write a letter to myself,in the voice of my higher power.
I've only done this a few times because it's sopowerful to me and I get choked up every time I do it because the message I receive from my higher power is always just so gentle and loving and full of understanding and encouragement and support.
(45:45):
I talk to myself as love would talk tomyself and anytime I feel really scared.
or, uncertain of the future, which is, not very oftenright now, but, I'm sure there will be circumstances that come up that will put me in that place.
that's what life does.
(46:06):
but, when I write this letter from love to me,I know that I am being guided and cared for.
You know, for me, even thisprogram, that this program exists.
That there's like people willing to be my sponsorthat there's meetings I get I can go to any time, to me That's proof that there is a loving higher power That's taking care of me because I couldn't have set up
(46:32):
this program to support me, you know with this Familydisease of alcoholism and yet here it is and it's here to help me if I want it So so that's my story.
Spencer (46:43):
Wow.
Wonderful.
Wonderful story.
Let's wrap up this section.
course, we always, come to your songs that you chose.
So what's the first one?
Mary C (46:54):
The first song is lift me up by Rihanna.
This song came to my mind when I thought aboutthe step because the song is very much about asking for help and asking for what I need.
Which is to feel safe
To be lifted up at times to be held down to be kept safe.
Step three is very much about turning my life over to thecare of my higher power, and that involves asking for help.
Spencer (47:29):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
I recently was at a meeting where thetopic was step nine, making amends.
As I thought about, what do I want to share that day?
what am I inspired to share about?
In that meeting we read from the book Paths to Recovery,and it talks about living amends as one form of making amends, where if something happened in the past that you can't change, you can't fix, the only amend, and amend means, to improve, to make better, to fix.
(48:09):
the only real amend I can make is to not do thatharm to somebody else or to the same person again.
That's the way I understand this process of living amends.
You know, when I was yelling at my kids at thetop of my lungs, I can't undo that, but I can make sure I don't do it to them or to anyone else.
Mary C (48:34):
You try?
Spencer (48:35):
can try.
Yeah, I can't necessarily makesure, but I can certainly try.
Most of the harms that I've done,unfortunately, fall into that category.
I
can't fix it.
I can't change it.
I can't change that it happened.
I can admit to it, and that is thedirect amends part of step nine.
Like, yeah, I did this thing.
(48:58):
I'm sorry that I hurt you.
And here's what I'm doing to try to make sure thatit won't happen to you or to somebody else again.
And then I also thought about some of the waysin which I harmed myself, myself and my family.
and in particular financially for many years, we, Iwould say we lived in a sort of a fantasy financial world that, We were always going to have enough money for the things that we wanted and the things that we needed.
(49:37):
That's not true.
In consequence, as you might imagine,we racked up quite a bit of debt,
a large amount of it in the form of creditcard debt, which is the most expensive kind.
So as we were both progressing in recovery, wewere like, we need to do something about this debt, which was close to my annual take home pay.
(50:04):
Like it was a lot.
It was a lot.
We decided that we actually needed to take some money out ofretirement funds to pay that down because the interest and everything on the credit card debt was really significant.
so we did that and we expressed that as, hey,we're making financial amends to ourselves.
(50:24):
We didn't immediately change our spending habits.
We never found ourselves in as deep a holeagain, but it took, I don't know, probably another decade to really get out of the hole.
And the amends that I have to make continuing forward isto make sure that what we are spending is within our means
(50:45):
so that we never get ourselves back into that hole.
Mary C (50:49):
Yeah.
Spencer (50:50):
This also becomes harder, somehow harder, because our income source has changed now that I'm retired.
I don't automatically get a raise every year.
It wasn't automatic, and I think there was oneyear when things were really bad and nobody got a raise, but it had been pretty consistent.
over the last 20 years or something that I'd get atleast close to cost of living raise, if not better.
(51:15):
We're going to have to make that happen ourselves now.
so part of the amends is being more financially responsible.
And I'm glad that, we had some practice over the lastdecade or so of continuing to live within our means,
will, Make it a little easier going forward.
My wife keeps saying, I need to make a budget.
That word budget like triggers a fear response in my head.
It's not a rational fear response, but it's there.
(51:38):
and I have to let go and push throughthat, say, Hey God, give me some help here.
that's a lot more than just what I shared in the meetingbecause, I only get a couple or three minutes to share in a meeting, but, that's something that's on my mind right now.
How about yourself?
How's recovery working in your life?
Mary C (51:55):
recovery is working amazing.
I have the most amazing life.
I actually started saying that I have an amazing life threeor four years ago, and I didn't really fully believe it
I didn't really have what I felt at the time to bequote an amazing life, but I just started saying it.
It's actually true now.
(52:17):
I have an amazing life.
I have a job I like.
I have, my family, my spouse, my kids.
we had a family member actually come into our lives recentlyand she's, adding some, some drama to our life, but like an interesting drama, not like the drama that worries me, she, is somebody that, we've not, I've never met before.
(52:39):
She came back into our lives.
So very exciting.
I'm having hobbies.
I continue to do a lot of service.
Al Anon related, Our delegate came back from WorldService Conference and told us about the new policy that they implemented about group names going forward.
Any new meetings that have the participant type in theirmeeting title are not going to be approved anymore.
(53:05):
So this includes like women's meetings and men's meetings
and LGBTQ plus meetings and ofcourse people of color meetings.
there's a meeting that I started last year calledLet It Begin With Us, Women of the Global Majority, and our registration has been denied, and we appealed that decision, but they're sticking with the denial because of this new policy that says any new meetings cannot have these, things in their meeting names.
(53:36):
so no more, like, Women's MorningLight, or Men's Steps to Serenity.
I don't understand this decision.
I think it was the wrong decision, but apparently that'swhat's going to be applied to groups moving forward.
I do care about Al Anon a lot, even though Idisagree with a lot of the things that You know, things that World Service does and some of the things that are in our service manual or whatever.
(53:58):
But I am still grateful for recovery andI still go to meetings many times a week.
I guess an Al Anon, win is, yeah, not being bothered bymy husband's decision that he's going to drink again.
he seems not in a hurry to do this.
Like he's been saying it for the last, I don'tknow, a few months or something like that.
(54:20):
and, yeah, I am very grateful for my life, my,my beautiful life that I'm able to have because, partly because of what I've learned in programs.
so thank you.
Spencer (54:33):
Thank you.
Looking forward, we're still as we just did,continuing a series of episodes on The Twelve Steps.
in fact, I have a couple more people in, The near futurethat we're also still be talking about step three, because there are so many different experiences with step three.
(54:58):
and our one conversation cannotcapture all those experiences.
I knew that was going to happen coming in.
I think I had two episodes on step one.
we're gonna get through it inthe time that we get through it.
And I'm not rushing, I'm not saying, ohno, this has to be a lockstep, 1, 2, 3, 4.
(55:20):
I'm trying to do them in order though, just becausethat's the way my brain works, I've also got a step 4 episode already scheduled, So we'd love to hear from you.
We welcome your thoughts on the steps or other topics.
You can join our conversation.
Please leave a voicemail or send us anemail with your feedback or your questions and Mary, how can people send us feedback
Mary C (55:43):
You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery dot show or if you prefer you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
(56:04):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope, oryour questions about today's topic of Step 3 or any of our upcoming topics, including the Steps.
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.
If you would like Advanced notice for some of ourtopics so that you can contribute to that topic.
(56:25):
You can sign up for our mailing list by sendingan email to feedback at the recovery dot show.
Put email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
Spencer (56:35):
Our website is the recovery dot show.
we have all the information about the show, which ismostly the notes for each episode, links to the books that we read from or talked about, videos for the music.
And there's a few links to someother recovery podcasts and websites.
I use Google Voice for the voicemail phone number.
(56:59):
It records at fairly low quality.
It's understandable, but rough.
I try to clean it up a little bit, but if I tryto clean it up too much, then it gets all weird.
And I really feel that for the most part, if you'reable to use your phone to record a voice memo and then email it, you're going to sound a lot better.
(57:20):
it's going to be easier for me to understand you.
It's going to be easier for theperson listening to understand you.
So I really encourage, Record a voice memo andemail it instead of using the phone number.
Now, if the phone number is what you can do, please douse the phone number because we do want to hear from you.
Also, if you can't remember theemail address, it's at the website.
(57:45):
There's a contact page, that has all thatinfo, including some information about being a guest host like Mary is today.
So that's all on the website at therecovery.
show slash contact.
All right.
That's enough calls to action here.
You've got another song for us.
Mary C (58:01):
Yes, the second song that I picked is What Was I Made For by Billie Eilish.
To me, step three is also about my purpose inlife and, Is my purpose to force my will be to be done or to let something bigger, come in?
So in step three, I'm giving my life and my will over.
(58:23):
And there's a line in the song that says,
When did it end?
All the enjoyment.
I'm sad again.
Don't tell my boyfriend.
It's not what he's made for.
I think that line, don't tell myboyfriend it's not what he's made for.
I think that's very Al Anon because it'sno one else's job to make us happy or sad.
but as Al Anons, sometimes we think, Oh,I'd be happy if only so and so did this or stopped doing this, or, our happiness seems to be contingent on another person's behavior.
(58:54):
And, I think.
Al Anon helps me take my life back,
my power and my control, back to my own life,which is the only place that it belongs.
Also, it helps me gain a senseof agency over my life, you know?
When I stop making my life be about otherpeople's life, then I have space, actually.
(59:17):
You know, create the life that I want for myself.
Spencer (59:21):
I've heard the saying that happiness is an inside job.
This song, if you have not watched therecording of her performance at the Grammys, I highly recommend that particular performance.
It's for me, was extremely moving.
Mary C (59:40):
Yeah.
She sings it so ethereal and her voiceis like really perfect for this song.
Spencer (59:54):
We got a couple of messages this week.
Calina wrote, Hi Spencer.
Your podcast got me through some very, very dark days.
When you say the seemingly impossible problemof alcoholism, I know I am in the right place.
I have found many episodes helpful when I struggledto process how my dad went from having a job, a home, and a family, to being bedbound, covered in bedsores in a rented apartment halfway around the world after he left to start a new life.
(01:00:24):
My dad has now passed and I am no longer living thecrazy life and I have stopped going to Al Anon but the pain remains and will be part of my life forever.
Thank you for your service, it is appreciated.
Calina.
Thank you for writing Calina
and if the pain remains you might findsome relief attending Al Anon meetings
(01:00:46):
in any case, I am grateful to hear that thework that I put into the podcast has helped.
Got an anonymous voicemail.
Anon (01:00:56):
Hi Spencer, I'm sharing anonymously.
I wanted to say that for years, the podcast has been awonderful, comforting, and brilliant resource for recovery.
Before I entered recovery, I listened to your podcastand it would encourage me to go to meetings and it would encourage me to perhaps begin working the steps.
(01:01:23):
I should start by saying I'm an active member, a gratefulmember of Esanon, and I do remember that there was at least one podcast where you and a guest spoke about S.
A.
and S.
A.
N.
O.
That podcast helped me to feel seen and I wouldlove to be a guest on the podcast to discuss S.
(01:01:47):
A.
N.
O.
N.
and the S.
A.
N.
O.
N.
program of recovery, which is of course rooted in AA.
It's the same program.
I also wanted to share that when I entered recovery,My sponsor and my grand sponsor helped me understand that working a program is different than going to a meeting or listening to a podcast or maybe reading some
(01:02:12):
literature, that there are four parts of it that areessential and just like the four legs on a table if one of these legs falls apart, the table falls over and I've known noticed that many times in my years of recovery.
The four legs of the table are, of course,ones that you know and practice, Spencer.
(01:02:35):
but if you're like me, one of these tendsto go and things tend to, to fall apart.
The four parts are going to meetings.
The second one, in no particular order,is working the steps with a sponsor.
The third would be prayer and meditation.
And the fourth would be fellowship.
I also wanted to share The last couple of episodes havereminded me of how vital and important fellowship and sharing, but fellowship itself, like sharing outside of meetings, helped me in my recovery and also protected me in a situation where I was completely unsafe.
(01:03:14):
One of the things that helped me in early recovery infellowship was to reveal to me that My qualifier at the time was in fact mentally ill and it wasn't for me to say whether the person was mentally ill and it wasn't for anyone else of course to say but it was just in fellowship.
(01:03:35):
It helped me know that my qualifier was not wrestling justwith addiction but was in fact wrestling with progressive mental illness and that violence and also, financial peril had become a part of, the story of this person's addiction.
(01:03:56):
Another thing that, that helped me in fellowship,was recognizing that the person who was my qualifier, was in fact not the only qualifier in my life, of course, as many of us find out, but that my own father was my original and first qualifier, that he had.
The disease of sex addiction and thathe also had the disease of alcoholism.
(01:04:19):
And in my years of recovery, my father, seeingmy own recovery, came to believe that a power greater than himself could restore him to sanity.
I didn't expect this to happen, but Ijust became emotional, realizing that.
And, yeah, my father, at this point, has,put together years of sobriety in aa.
(01:04:42):
And, I have also had some activity in theAl-Anon program, as well as, my S Anon program.
I thank you so much for your podcast andfor providing a venue for such incredible speakers, such deep and profound recovery.
(01:05:03):
and I am very grateful to you.
Very grateful for the shares.
Very grateful.
for the sharing the lyrics and and all of these ideasabout recovery that are so very valuable and so rooted in sanity, so rooted in serenity, so rooted in a commitment to recovery and a commitment to actually working a program.
(01:05:29):
Leaving you with so much respect andso much gratitude for your service.
Thank you, Spencer.
Spencer (01:05:33):
Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, and hope.
Especially, thank you for the metaphor of the four legs ofthe table, as it applies to working a program of recovery.
I'm looking forward to doing a full episodewith you as a guest, as you suggest.
Mary, I want to thank you so much for coming on and,and having this deep conversation about our experiences with step three, with turning our will and our lives over to the care of our higher power who cares for us.
(01:06:03):
Thank you.
Mary C (01:06:04):
Thank you for having me on.
It was a joy to speak with you.
Spencer (01:06:07):
chose the last song.
Which is one we've used before in thepodcast, Sweet Surrender by Sarah McLachlan.
And you can listen to this one andall of the music at therecovery.
show slash 416.
The couple of lines that stand outfor me is the line near the beginning.
(01:06:28):
The life I've left behind me is a cold room.
Um, well, yeah.
What more can I say?
And then the chorus repeats, Sweetsurrender is all that I have to give.
And then in parentheses in the lyrics it says, Who are you?
And I'm just like, I'm surrendering.
(01:06:49):
And this is my experience, too.
I don't really know who I'm surrenderingto, but I'm surrendering in step three.
Thank you for listening and please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them, too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
(01:07:14):
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!