March 13, 2025 • 51 mins
In a world where substance use and addiction take numerous forms, support groups tailored to specific needs are invaluable. Mar-Anon is one such group providing support to those affected by cannabis use disorder in their loved ones. Inspired by the Al-Anon program, Mar-Anon offers a space for families and friends to find connection and understanding...
The post Mar-Anon: Help for Family and Friends of Cannabis Addicts – 430 appeared first on The Recovery Show.
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(00:01):
Do you have a friend or relationwho's addicted to marijuana?
Have you heard of Mar-Anon?
Let's find out more.
Welcome to episode 430 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you byLiz, Androna, Lizbeth, and Sue.
They use the donation button on our website.
Liz, Androna, Lizbeth, and Suefor your generous contributions.
(00:22):
This episode is for you.
We are friends of family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
(00:42):
Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show,we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
(01:03):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today and joining me today is Bart.
Welcome to The Recovery Show, Bart.
Thank you, Spencer.
Glad to be here.
You're here to talk to us about The Mar a non program.
You brought a reading from The Language of Letting Go.
Yeah, I have the language of letting go by Melanie Beatty.
The one I picked out was, it's callednurturing ourselves from December 17.
(01:28):
Page 359 says,
Many of us have been so deprived of nurturingthat we think it's silly or self indulgent.
Nurturing is neither silly nor self indulgent.
It's how we show our love for ourselves.
That's what we're striving for in recovery.
A loving relationship with ourselves that works so wecan have loving relationships with others that work.
(01:53):
When we hurt, we ask ourselves whatwe need to help us feel better.
When we feel alone, we reach out to someone safe.
Without feeling that we are a burden,we allow that person to be there for us.
We rest when we're tired, eat when we're hungry,have fun or relax when our spirits need a lift.
(02:14):
Nurturing means giving ourselves gifts, a tripto the beauty salon or barbershop, a massage, a book, a new jacket or a new suit or dress.
It means a long hot bath to forget about our problems andthe world for a few moments when that would feel good.
We learned to be gentle with ourselves and to openup to the nurturing that others have to offer us.
(02:40):
As part of nurturing ourselves, we allowourselves to give and receive positive touch.
Touch that feels appropriate to us, touch that is safe.
We reject touch that doesn't feelgood or safe and is not positive.
We learn to give ourselves what we needin a gentle, loving, compassionate way.
(03:01):
We do this with the understanding it will not makeus lazy, spoiled, self centered, or narcissistic.
Nurtured people are effective intheir work and in their relationships.
We will learn to feel loved by ourselves so muchthat we can truly love others and let them love us.
(03:23):
Today, I will nurture myself.
I will also be open to the nurturing thatI can give to others and receive from them.
Thank you.
As an introduction to Mar-Anon, could you say a littlebit about what brought you, to this program of recovery?
Yes, about 20 years ago, my son was actually havingproblems with alcohol in college and he had an episode where the police had to come and it was a big, ugly scene.
(03:55):
He had a contusion because he fell down and ended upin the emergency room with a swelling in his brain.
So we rushed down to college.
When we met with a therapist about what hadhappened, they suggested that we go to Al-Anon.
So about 20 years ago, we went to our first Al-Anon meeting,my wife and I. There was about four people there, kind of a dark room, and long story short, after that meeting, my wife and I looked at each other on the way to our car in the parking lot and just said, I guess, Al-Anon isn't for us.
(04:29):
About five years later, we wentto another meeting, only parents.
About 50 people.
It was the opposite situation, well lit room.
And that's when it really connected with both of us.
In fact, when I started to share,I started crying like a baby.
Because I had felt all this shame and guilt and all thesefeelings I've been stuffing down for years come out.
(04:53):
So that was my first basically successful, Al-Anon meeting.
Then, many years later, actually in 2020,I was Googling about marijuana because both my sons became addicted to marijuana.
It's called cannabis use disorder.
My youngest son especially was having cannabis inducedpsychosis, many episodes of, cannabis induced psychosis.
(05:17):
And sadly, he ended up dying by suicide in 2018.
He was 29 years old.
The last articulate thing he said tome was cannabis has ruined my life.
He thought it was his medicine and he took more andmore and higher and higher THC cannabis or marijuana.
In 2020, while I was doing more researchabout it on the internet, I found Mar-Anon.
(05:40):
I emailed Mar-Anon and I asked about the meetings.
It was during COVID and the one personkeeping the website going and pretty much the whole thing going, her name is Brooke.
She said, there's no meetings.
because of, COVID and I said, can I start zoom meetings?
So I started these zoom meetings andthe thing just basically took off.
(06:01):
And now we have 2300 members, lots ofmeetings every week and that type of thing.
Wow.
That's pretty astounding.
Do you know how big the program was before the shutdown?
Yeah.
So before the zoom meeting started in Octoberof 2020, I think there were about 150 people that were connected through an email chain.
(06:25):
I think a couple of Facebook groups and it was about 150.
like I say, now we have like over 2, 300and we've got about 20 new members a week.
And of course, hardly anyone's ever heard of Mar-Anon.
Right.
all the meetings are currently online?
Almost, yeah, every meeting is almost on zoom.
We have two meetings that are in person, one inNewport beach and one in Albany, right next to Berkeley, California, and the San Francisco Bay area.
(06:55):
I had a question.
Back a little while.
You talked about your two first Al-Anon meeting experiencesand how, one of them just didn't work for you at all.
And then the later one you really connected with.
You know, when we get newcomers in a meeting, we alwaystry to remember to tell them, check out different meetings.
(07:19):
My experience is I've been to meetings that Ireally connect with and I've been to meetings that frankly, in some case, turned me off.
Luckily, I guess for me, the first meeting Iwent to was one I really connected with well, but then, people suggested other meetings.
And when I found myself in a position where I neededmore recovery than once a week, I checked out some of them and there were a couple that, And maybe it was just what happened that day, or maybe that was
(07:48):
something about that meeting in general that I justnever went back to because something happened that, that turned me away or that I just didn't connect with.
And so I think that's really important to emphasizeto people when they're new in a program is if you don't like this meeting, but you recognize that you want help.
There are other meetings and you may dobetter with one of the other meetings.
(08:11):
I totally agree.
When I think back to my first Al-Anon meeting, Ihave no idea what anybody said in that meeting.
I can't remember a single thing that was said, but I doremember feeling welcomed, and feeling like I wasn't alone.
Oh, yeah, I totally agree.
I said the second meeting when I started justcrying like a baby, once I started sharing at first, I'd say the first 15 seconds, I felt embarrassed.
(08:37):
But then it was amazing.
I felt the love of, all these people in the room.
It really was powerful.
And I felt the love and support.
And I felt really great.
I felt like a, a thousand poundpack had been taken off my back.
So let's talk about the Mar-Anon programbecause I am totally not familiar with it.
I probably could have done some Googling ahead of time.
(08:58):
It might have been helpful.
You know, I'm probably coming into this like justabout anybody who's listening to the podcast.
Like I've never heard of this.
I don't know what it's about.
Is it a 12 step program?
Yes, it's based on Al-Anon.
When we used to go to the Al-Anon meetings before wefound Mar-Anon, what would happen is whenever they would say alcohol, I would just switch in my head to marijuana.
(09:25):
We admitted we were powerless over marijuanaand that our lives have become unmanageable.
Exactly.
Basically, it's the same as Al-Anon.
Because we're so new, we don't have our own literature.
We, use, Al-Anon literature, and same thing, whenwe get to the word alcohol, we just, substitute marijuana, and then, of course, we get the word alcoholic, we'll say loved one, that type of thing.
(09:48):
We also, use the Language of Letting Go by MelodyBeatty, which is, of course, the reading I just read.
Because we're so new, we, haven't developedour literature yet, but we are in the process.
And on our website, there's a letter fromsomeone who has cannabis use disorder.
There's a letter from someone who has, cannabis inducedpsychosis, or at least has had episodes of that.
(10:10):
And there's a letter from someone who has, or had CHS,which stands for long term cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, where they just keep vomiting over and over.
I can talk more about that, but they're three letters.
Okay.
So the meeting's structured similarly to an Al-Anon meeting?
(10:34):
One of the things in Al-Anon, we'reencouraged to learn about alcoholism.
I imagine then in Mar-Anon, you're encouragedto learn about, cannabis use disorder.
I guess in Al-Anon, we could say alcohol use disorder,
Yes,
to bring it up to current terminology.
Exactly.
And then also it's interesting because we, as a groupdecided to in the do's and don'ts, one of the do's at the end of the meeting that we talked about is do go to open marijuana anonymous meetings and read their literature.
(11:08):
Okay.
I guess I've heard of, what do you call it?
MA, like AA.
Yeah, they havebout 500 meetings a week, alot of them are on Zoom, and a lot of them are open, just like an open AA meeting.
I see.
So the person, of course, who has cannabisuse disorder, when they're ready for recovery, Marijuana Anonymous is where they would go.
(11:28):
And then, for the loved ones, there's Mar-Anon.
So what do you find different in Mar-Anon?
That's a really good question, yeah.
So my Al-Anon sponsor said to me, when I told himthat, I was going to do these meetings through Mar-Anon, and he said, just do it through Al-Anon.
(11:50):
And I said, I understand his point,and actually, I also go to Al-Anon.
I go to an in person meeting, and I know alot of people in Mar-Anon also go to Al-Anon.
What I did say to him, as I said, the thing about thedifference between marijuana addiction and alcohol addiction is that so many people say it's just weed, it's just pot.
(12:14):
They say it's not addictive, grows out of theground, etc. And that person does not feel supported.
I'd say most people in Al-Anon wouldn't say that,there are still people who do say, Oh, alcohol's worse.
Alcohol can be worse for some people.
But marijuana can be worse for other people.
It's still an addiction.
(12:35):
You can go psychotic, and all these other,issues, what we were talking about, that you can have when you're basically addicted to cannabis.
I guess that makes sense.
Those of us who are in Al-Anon because of aproblem with alcoholism in a relative or friend, as our tradition puts it, we can find common experience and common ground with other members.
(13:02):
And say, Hey, my loved one, does this, has thesesymptoms and somebody else can say, So does mine.
This is my understanding, especially, when we'renew, don't really understand what's going on.
but if I was to come into an Al-Anon meeting and say,my loved one is smoking too much pot and is like having psychotic breaks, there might be somebody, if it's a big meeting, who could relate to that and could share their own experience with it, but less likely than if I came to a Mar-Anon meeting, I would imagine.
(13:37):
No question, in fact, a lot of newcomers will saysomething like, Finally, I found a group of people who understand, and don't say, it's just pot, or it's just weed.
Yeah.
So they feel supported.
If somebody wants to find a meeting,they would go to the Mar-Anon website.
(13:58):
Yeah, go to our website.
It's M A R hyphen A N O N dot com.
And then you go, the meetings section, that's whereyou're going to find the links to our Zoom meetings and the information about our two in person meetings.
I probably have said this before on the podcast,but one of the things I'm really grateful for that came out of the pandemic and there are only a few, is the growth of technologies for meeting online.
(14:24):
The prime example being, of course, Zoom.
People are more familiar with them,they're more comfortable using them.
I look at you, you look at me, youknow, we're in an older generation.
Which is often viewed as being not technologically savvy.
there are people in my meetings that meet online thatare significantly older than me and they figured it out.
(14:50):
Right.
Now, especially when, for whatever reason,we find it difficult to travel to a meeting.
Whether it's because the meetingis in California and I'm not.
Or , just because of weather orother issues that are going on.
I have a friend who's got some painful thing goingon with his knee, and he can still come to a meeting.
(15:14):
Because he can do it by Zoom.
Exactly.
I totally agree.
We have people that have beento our meetings from Australia.
Europe, Canada, Mexico, and of course,throughout the United States since 2020.
So that's five years.
Okay, I was going to say not fora very long time, but five years.
what changes do you see?
And maybe this is hard to say because it'salso coincided just with the growth of the program in general, as marijuana use becomes legal in more and more of at least the U. S.
(15:47):
We get so many people that say, Oh, my loved one,again, could be their son, their daughter, their husband or wife, or partner, that say, Oh, now that it's legal, they think it's okay to do it.
And that's one of the excuses they use, it's legal, andit's okay, it's medicine, it's not addictive, it's natural.
(16:12):
It's again the same stuff you'll hear from a lot of people.
And basically it's like alcohol, some peoplecan obviously drink casually, some people can't.
Some people can use marijuanacasually, and some people can't.
that's the way I look at it.
The other thing is that, when I was using it, whichI wish I never did, but I did in college, I was using, I think I actually got addicted to 3 percent THC, pot, that's what we called it back then.
(16:37):
3%, now a lot of people are vaping and using 60%.
70, 80, 90%. So even if we take 3 percent backin the seventies when I was doing it, and we go to 60 percent now, which again is very common.
that's 20 times more.
And so I asked people, I said, what do youthink is going to be the difference between somebody having one drink or having 20 drinks.
(17:03):
The other thing is that THC, which is the partthat gets you high of the marijuana plant.
The THC is fat soluble, so it sticks to fat.
Whereas, alcohol, we know is water soluble so you pee itout and one of the fattiest parts of our bodies are brains.
I know that, with alcohol, you take adrink, you're affected for a few hours, and then it's basically gone from your system.
(17:29):
My understanding with THC, like you said, is, you putit in your system and it sticks around for longer.
Correct.
It sticks to the fat in our brains in other places.
I'm going to change the subject here.
I'm looking at the Mar-Anon meetings list, andI see a lot of sort of specialized meetings.
(17:53):
So we have meeting for memberswith spouse and partner qualifiers.
We have a global meeting which tells what time it's on in,in Pacific and Ireland and Berlin and New Delhi and Sydney.
There's a book study, for Al-Anon's Paths to Recovery book.
(18:13):
Because as you say, you don't have the literature,but you can read the Al-Anon literature and just substitute marijuana for alcohol.
and then I came to this one.
Mar-Anon meaning for cannabis induced psychosis,cannabinoid hyper You mean, I can't even pronounce it.
So CHS, a lot of people just say.
I'll answer the question first, at least what I thinkyou're trying to get at is I want to make it clear to people that, I wouldn't, put too much emphasis on the title of the meeting because, it just means that group decided that they wanted to name it that name.
(18:49):
however, if you can make a meeting and you're curious.
I would go to any meeting and then you'll find that there'speople there that just have a loved one that suffers from cannabis use disorder, either they're in recovery, like going to marijuana anonymous, and that type of thing, or working with an addiction therapist, or they're not.
(19:11):
But I would just go to any meeting and just check it out.
We find this also in Al-Anon.
We have meetings that are focusing on, say, theexperience of being the parent of an alcoholic.
Meetings that focus on being an adult child of an alcoholic.
We have the Alateen, which is for,not quite adult children of alcoholics.
(19:33):
But the one that caught my eye was the oneabout, cannabis induced psychosis, et cetera.
And I'm like, okay, I think many people have somenotion about the diseases that come with alcoholism.
We've heard of them.
the cannabis use disorder related syndromesor diseases, whatever we want to call them, I think probably are less familiar to most people.
(19:59):
I agree totally.
And that's why I think Mar-Anon is importantto have in addition to Al-Anon because, the conditions that you say are different.
There's CHS, which some people call it scromiting.
So a lot of times people willscream and vomit at the same time.
Oh my goodness.
no, It's terrible and I hope nobody'seating, but anyway, it's really terrible.
(20:21):
people, unfortunately their kidneys have given outand a very small percentage have, died from it.
But usually people get to the emergency roomin time and they get fluids right into them.
It's very, debilitating and just to givepeople an idea, you can check out the, CHS.
Facebook recovery group has about 30, 000 members.
(20:42):
Wow.
I did some reading and some research on it andthey figure about two and a half million people have either had CHS or have CHS, the combination.
So about two and a half million.
A lot of times doctors and nurses, they know more about it,but they used to say, Oh no, marijuana can't cause that.
(21:03):
And yes, it can, unfortunately.
And then, Yeah, the Saturday meeting, if people canmake the Saturday meeting, which is like in that long title, then that would be, I would say, the meeting that probably people should at least try to go to at least once because we have 20 to 30 people in that meeting and a lot of them have been going for years.
(21:23):
And they know a lot.
They have a lot of recovery behind them.
And they are open to peoplecontacting them and helping them out.
They can provide support for people who aretrying to support their addicted loved one.
Exactly.
Yeah, okay.
This is where having the more focusedrecovery group on, marijuana, Naranon for opioids has been around for a long time.
(21:51):
we can find that kind of help, might not be available ascommonly in, in Al-Anon, which is, obviously the bigger program, the more well known, although it's not as well known as I wish it was, but you know, we're working on that.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you.
again, looking at the website, I see there's some pamphlets.
(22:11):
what is Mar-Anon, bookmark, what is cannabisuse disorder and about some of these,
Like CHS.
and, psychosis.
and a detoxing pamphlet.
Oh, those are for Marijuana Anonymous, those two.
CBD and detoxing.
oh, and here's your letters.
Okay.
I'm addicted to marijuana.
(22:31):
I need your help.
I have cannabis induced psychosis.
I need your help.
I have CHS.
I need your help.
So again, if people aren't sure whetherMar-Anon program was going to help them.
There's a lot of stuff here to help you figure it out beforeyou even take the chance of signing into a Zoom meeting.
And oh my god, I mean signing into aZoom meeting is so low barrier, right?
(22:55):
Because you can come in anonymous, leave your camera off.
I totally agree with you.
They don't have to have their camera on.
They don't have to share.
They can just check it out.
And like you said before that,you can check out the website.
Don't have to worry that somebodysees you going into the meeting.
There's so many people that go, What?
I can't believe you're making a big deal out of marijuana.
(23:17):
And a lot of that is because, again, it used tobe so weak, and now, most of it is very strong.
Yeah.
I have a son who I think he still uses it casually.
He was living in Colorado when recreational marijuana usebecame legal in Colorado, which was a few years ago now,
(23:37):
Right.
and he also vaped, nicotine.
And so he got himself some THC and put it in hisvape pen, and I think he said he was unable to do anything for hours because he put too much in.
Another thing that I wonder, in Al-Anon,our affected loved ones range from generally teenage children, through near end of life.
(24:00):
So we have parents, we have children, we have spouses.
What is your observation, if you can, about the age range ofthe addicted loved ones of the people who are in Mar-Anon?
that's a good question.
I go to a lot of meetings and I helprun the Mondays and Wednesday meetings.
(24:20):
I'd say around 14 to 15 usually is the youngest as faras their sons or daughters, and then up to in the 70s,
really say so sort of the same.
Somebody in their 70s, who'sstruggling with, cannabis use disorder.
Is this somebody who maybe started using recentlywhen it became legal, or they've been using their whole life and now they use more, or,
(24:46):
Most of them, been using their whole life.
some of them, of course, often on maybe their wholelife and others, they just enjoy it like people having a couple of drinks a night or something.
What's happened is with the legalization in a lotof states and the availability of very strong vapes, different types of like dabs, waxes, et cetera.
(25:08):
Where again, you're getting, upto, close to a hundred percent THC.
They can get that much more addicted to it.
Of course, we're talking about the users, which isnot what Mar-Anon's about, but I guess I'm trying to untangle what are the differences in the Mar-Anon members experience with their loved ones use and misuse and abuse versus alcohol, I'm just trying to understand that.
(25:33):
Okay.
So with alcohol, we've had hard alcohol for a long time.
what's new, what's different with the marijuana is wehaven't had high THC cannabis or marijuana for very long.
I would say the difference, because it's newon the scene and people didn't understand it.
(25:53):
And obviously, the more it affects our loved ones, whohave cannabis use disorder, then the more it affects us.
I guess I could make a parallel with opiates and opioidsin that respect, that the recent development of things like fentanyl have changed the risk profile for opiate users.
(26:16):
I agree.
I keep going off on these tangents because thesethings occur to me like differences between the way that marijuana affects the body and the mind and the way that alcohol affects the body and the mind and one of those that I really don't understand very well is how it affects your ability to drive.
I don't know what the legal situation is.
(26:39):
Is there some THC blood level orsomething that is equivalent to DUI?
I don't know.
That's a good question.
I think they're working on that, but I haven'treally heard any reliable tests at this time.
I do know that a lot of people think they canplay the guitar better, they can drive better, drive just as good, and all that, high on THC.
(27:01):
And when they've done the tests, in thelaboratories or whatever, they can't,
A friend of my ex wife's told this story.
This is back in maybe the 80s or the 70s.
He and his friend had gotten really stoned and theywere driving home on Interstate 15 and cop pulled him over and, comes to the window, asks the standard question, do you know how fast you were driving?
(27:24):
And he's like, I have no idea.
The cop says, you were going 20 milesan hour, that's why I pulled you over.
Yeah, so true.
Unfortunately, I know, there are definitely funny storiesand all that and I have some of my own, but, unfortunately, I know people whose loved ones have been killed by it.
People that are high on THC.
I'm sure.
(27:44):
And you probably met some of them in the meeting,
Yeah.
What else do you want to tell me about Mar-Anonand about how it has In particular, helped you.
I'm going to guess that your other son ismaybe still smoking marijuana or whatever.
it's a really good question.
I don't really know.
We don't have a relationship with him at this time,
(28:05):
Okay.
So I don't know.
However, I do know that starting the zoommeetings, and doing the work that I do, taking phone calls, answering emails, et cetera, being there to try to help others has really helped me.
Just like when I was in Al-Anon and I did the same typeof thing and I just feel like I have a purpose in my life and that I'm making a difference and that helps me.
(28:33):
You've been in Al-Anon for a while, so you, yougot detach and all that stuff from Al-Anon.
Has your attendance at Mar-Anon, deepenedthat in relationship to your son?
Yes, I think it's just basicallyreinforced that I can't control my son.
I can't change him.
(28:54):
It's helped me to live my life and take care of myself.
And, nurture myself and be as loving and kind as I canbe, and just hoping and praying for the best for my son.
Yeah, that's what we can do.
As we close down this conversation, what messagedo you have for somebody who's considering Mar-Anon or has just now heard of it?
(29:22):
I would say If you go to a meeting, I think you'llfind support and find people who understand.
Instead of if you went to your family members orfriends, a lot of times they'll say, again, it's just weed, it's just pot, that's in, something that you have a problem with, but it's no big deal.
So I think, if you just check out a meeting, again,you don't have to be on video, you don't have to share, I think you'll find a lot of support there.
(29:47):
Thank you.
I did ask you to pick some music and you picked three songsfrom Daphne Willis, which I am not familiar with her work.
what can you tell us about her in particular andthen about this first song you picked, I Am Enough?
to be honest, cause it's all about, we're, as sickas our secrets, I really don't know much about Daphne Willis because I don't listen to that much music.
(30:14):
I enjoy music when I hear it.
I asked a friend of mine, and she gave methese three and I actually listened to them.
I really liked them.
And I would say the title more than anything.
I am enough.
I really like it.
I think the message is that even thoughI don't have a relationship with my son right now and my other son passed away.
(30:36):
I do feel like I need to be reminded that I'menough and if I'm going to listen to any songs it's going to be positive songs like that.
Okay, there will be a video, on our website at therecovery.
show slash 430, the notes for this episode.
(30:57):
Go check that out.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
I have a sponsee who got partway through the steps andthen life changed and didn't have the time or the energy to continue, and is now back and saying, Hey, I think I need to really focus back on the steps, at this point in my life.
(31:31):
So we met yesterday.
I said, where do you want to go?
Do you want to start where we left off?
Do you want to go back to the beginning?
It's been a few years.
And so we agreed that, yeah, going back to thebeginning, at least reviewing the earlier steps.
because, you know, their outlook has changed, theirunderstanding has changed, their experience is different now, their loved one is suffering some severe medical, consequences as a result of their addiction.
(32:01):
So their life's in a different place.
We decided we would meet regularlybecause that is the way you get it done.
If you just say, Oh, we'll meet when we can.
You know what?
That doesn't happen.
So, we are setting up regular meetingtimes every couple weeks, and we're going to go back and start with step one again.
I think we'll probably go a little more quickly throughthe first three steps than we did the first time.
(32:26):
One of the things that is good for me here is thatit brings me back to looking again at, why I'm here.
what does step one mean for me today?
Because if we're going to talk about what step one meansfor my sponsee, we're also going to talk about what it means for me, or at least I'm going to talk about that to myself.
so this is, this is good.
(32:47):
and I now have two sponsees who are activelyworking the steps at the moment, so that's cool.
That's where I am in recovery right now.
Life has been fairly steady, and I've talkedabout that before in earlier episodes.
How about yourself?
What's going on in, in your recovery life?
Yeah, I would say that I do a lotof 12 step work, through Mar-Anon.
(33:10):
But someone said many years ago to mein Al-Anon, it's not a one step program.
So sometimes I forget about that, and I have to,right now, remind myself that I need to work the steps and continue to work the steps, not just say, over and over at meetings or just read about them, but I actually need to work them and more than just step 12.
(33:34):
Right now what I'm doing is I'm,focusing on steps one, two, and three.
And in my, brief summary of steps one, two, andthree is, I've heard this again many times before.
step one tells me that I can't do it by myself.
I can't work my recovery by myself.
I need my higher power.
I need other people in Al-Anon and in Mar-Anon to help me.
(33:59):
Okay.
So I can't do it by myself.
Number two, I'm gonna let my higher power andothers help me again, who are in the program.
And, number three, I'm coming to the conclusion thatit's impossible for me to just be sitting by myself and, not engage with the programs that work for me, which again is Al-Anon and Mar-Anon, and engage with the people that care, understand, and love and support me.
(34:30):
will respect my anonymity.
Yeah.
That's important.
Thank you.
I always, look forward a little bit what's coming upin the podcast and I'm still working on the steps.
I've got steps eight through 12 coming.
We always welcome your thoughts.
You can join our conversation.
You can leave a voicemail or send us an email with yourfeedback or your questions or your shares about the steps.
(34:55):
Bart, how can people send us feedback?
You can send a voicemail or email to feedback atthe recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
(35:18):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope,your questions about today's topic of Miranon.
Or any of our upcoming topics,including steps eight through 12.
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.
If you'd like an advance notice for some ofour topics, so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list.
(35:41):
By sending an email to feedback at therecovery dot show, put quote unquote, email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
As you might have guessed bynow, the website is TheRecovery.
show.
There's some other aliases that alsowork if you're more familiar with those.
And you can find the current episode at TheRecovery.
(36:04):
show slash the number of the episode.
So this is 430, which is at therecovery.
show slash four three zero.
In there you will find links to Mar-Anon,a link to buy the Melody Beattie book, and the videos, for the songs by Daphne Willis.
(36:25):
We will take a short break before we dive into the mailbag.
Our second musical selection available on thewebsite is Keep On Keeping On by Daphne Willis.
(36:46):
Let's hear from you.
Kathy writes in response to the episode 427 titled Whenthe Behavior is Too Much for Most of Us with Misty B. Dear Spencer, what would I do without you and your show?
My 45 minute commute is so much betterwith you keeping me company most days.
I truly appreciate the hard work that goes into what you do.
(37:08):
The content and guests are always amazing, andI always seem to hear exactly what I need to.
thanks Kathy, and thanks Misty.
Mary writes, Hi, I have enjoyed your podcast.
Thank you.
I have tried to join some 12 step groups where I livein my local area, but I encountered some trouble.
It seems like the group I was inwas breaking many 12 step rules.
(37:30):
For example, despite rules about not proselytizing,it seemed like The codependency 12 step group that I tried to join was trying to get people from the group to attend services at a particular church.
I also learned more about the so called 13th step,and while this never happened to me, it makes me feel scared that there is not proper oversight to protect participants from predatory people who have bad intentions being in a 12 step program.
(37:54):
I also want to add that it seemed like the anonymous part ofthe 12 step groups was not being respected, where it seemed like people were gossiping in different 12 step groups about people in other groups, all about people in our local area.
It was in a manner that I thought was notrespectful of the sensitive details and the nature of what people share in 12 step groups.
For me, the anonymous part is veryimportant to feel comfortable in a group.
(38:16):
So I felt this was very damaging to my sense oftrust in 12 step programs, especially where I live.
My therapist believes in 12 step programs and hastold me that AA and similar programs saves lives.
I have heard people say it takes time to finda group where you feel a good sense of fit.
I don't live in a very large city, however, so Isometimes wonder whether there is any group that would be a good fit for me, especially as I don't want to be in a group where I'm being proselytized to, especially being told to attend services at a particular church or where anonymity is not respected.
(38:47):
Have you talked about these issues before?
Thank you.
Mary.
I don't think we've talked about those issuesin particular, it probably has come up in my conversations with some of my guests.
But it sounds like the Groups that you've checkedout are really not following the traditions.
(39:09):
Here's part of the thing, like we don't actuallyhave rules, we have traditions and recommendations.
One of the phrases that you may hearis obedience to the unenforceable.
Because no particular person or people aresupposed to be in charge of other people.
(39:30):
I think there's another tradition about that,being placed in authority over other people.
It really is the responsibility of every individual,and the group as a whole, to enforce adherence to the principles and if the group is unhealthy, then yeah, that's not going to happen and you're absolutely right to leave.
(39:52):
I'm hoping that your therapist might be able to referyou to some healthy groups in your area or online.
I did send you, a zoom link for anAl-Anon meeting that I trust online.
It's called You're Not Alone.
It's at 7 30 a. m. Eastern time every day.
If you're listening to the podcast and you'reinterested, you can find it on the alanon.Org site under, electronic meetings, global electronic area, I think is the subheading on the meetings menu.
(40:24):
Just type in, you are not alone, fourwords, and it should pop right up.
The things that Mary mentions, she mentions at leasttwo out of the three obstacles to success in Al-Anon.
You can just Google obstacles to success inAl-Anon, and it will pop up in several locations.
(40:47):
But it shows up in particular in the Al-Anon book, Al-Anonand Alateen Groups at Work, which is a free PDF download.
I'll put a link in the show notes at TheRecovery.
show slash 430.
It's on pages 20 to 21.
And reading says (41:04):
three obstacles to success in Al-Anon.
This passage has helped manygroups to resolve group problems.
All Al-Anon discussions should be constructive,helpful, loving, and understanding.
In striving toward these ideals, we avoid topics thatcan lead to dissension and distract us from our goals.
(41:26):
1. Discussions of Religion.
Al-Anon is not allied with any sect or denomination.
It is a spiritual program basedon no particular form of religion.
Everyone is welcome, no matter what affiliation or none.
Let us not defeat our purpose by entering intodiscussions concerning specific religious beliefs.
2. Gossip.
(41:47):
We meet to help ourselves and otherslearn and use the Al-Anon philosophy.
In such groups, gossip can have no part.
We do not discuss members or others,and particularly not the alcoholic.
Our dedication to anonymity givespople confidence in Al-Anon.
Careless repeating of matters heard at meetings candefeat the very purposes for which we are joined together.
(42:10):
3. Dominance.
Our leaders are trusted servants.
They do not govern.
No member of Al-Anon should direct,assume authority, or give advice.
Our program is based on suggestion, interchangeof experience, and rotation of leadership.
We progress in our own way and pace.
Any attempt to manage or direct is likely tohave disastrous consequences for group harmony.
(42:33):
So if you're in a group where one or more of these thingsis happening, my suggestion is find a different group.
Thanks for writing, Mary.
I would invite your sharing if you've experienced the kindof problems that Mary lists, and or have helped to resolve those kinds of problems in your group or in your life.
(42:55):
send us an email, a voicemail and share your experience.
Thanks.
Nora wrote, Hey Spencer, I hope you are well, havebeen meaning to leave feedback, but in terms of future podcasts, here are two that I would love to hear.
The first would be on two way prayer with Father Bill,who has a podcast and has really been helpful to me.
He is a historian of AA as well.
(43:16):
I really recommend his pod and would love tohear him tell you about two way prayer as a tool for Al-Anons and all who are in recovery or are interested in connecting with a higher power.
The second subject that I would love to heardiscussed probably with a panel or at least one person well versed in this is the non conference approved approach of using the Big Book.
(43:38):
That's the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book.
The third subject might be a stepstudy group that uses the Big Book.
I'm in it right now doing my secondinventory this way and man is it thorough.
I would likely ask the leaders of the groupto participate in your podcasts as they are quite articulate and have a ton of recovery.
Thanks, Spencer, for all you do.
It is an honor to get to do the pod with you.
(43:59):
I look forward to getting to do it againwhen I don't have undiagnosed Lyme disease.
All the best, Nora.
Nora was a guest on episode 413 Step1, Finding Strength in Surrender.
And she was a little fuzzy during part of our conversation.
(44:19):
Turned out she had Lyme disease and didn't know it.
I hope you're getting better, Nora.
I think I heard from you that you are.
Those are interesting topics.
and the second topic actually aligns with a topic thatsomebody asked about maybe last episode or two episodes ago about doing the steps using the AA Big Book approach.
(44:39):
It's not Al-Anon, obviously, but this podcast is centeredon Al-Anon, but it is not Al-Anon, and so it could be an interesting thing to talk about in an episode.
I have links to Father Bill'spodcast on Apple and Spotify also.
Jennifer says, Hi, I have beenlistening to your show for a few years.
(45:01):
I love it and thank you.
I don't know if you've ever done a show on dry drunks,but it is something that I would be interested in.
My husband has been sober for over 30 years, butas we got busy with having children and doing their activities, he stopped going to meetings.
One of our sons is an alcoholic, andthat's how I got back into Al-Anon.
I've been realizing that I do the samething to my husband as I did with our son.
(45:22):
I know that the steps are still the same,whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.
But sometimes I feel different becauseI only have his behavior to look at, not a reason for the behavior like drinking.
I don't know if that made sense.
Anyway, just a thought.
Thanks for all you and your show do.
Signed, Jennifer.
The way I think about it is that consuming alcohol isa symptom of the disease, and even when an alcoholic is not drinking, it still is advisable for them to treat the underlying isms, the underlying disease.
(45:55):
That's why, whether the alcoholic is still drinkingor not, when I first heard that, it's like, well, if they're not drinking, then why do we need a program?
As I discovered, my wife's been sober for19 and a half years and I still need my program because it's really not about her.
It's about me and the way that I react to otherpeople's behavior, and in particular to behaviors that activate some of my character defects.
(46:23):
That's what I need Al-Anon for.
I came to Al-Anon because of her drinking, of heralcoholism, and she still is an alcoholic and she still in her meeting says every time, I'm an alcoholic.
those are my thoughts.
I'd love to hear from others who have your ownexperience, strength, and or hope to share about living with an alcoholic who is sober, but not in recovery, I think is maybe the way to put it.
(46:55):
And how your Al-Anon program, helps you with that.
Got a voicemail from Pat
Hey Spencer, this is Pat from the West Coast.
I sat down to write about grief and relief, in yourrecent request and found myself instead writing in reply to the listener who asked about how to deal with friends telling her how to handle the alcoholic in her life.
(47:18):
and I remember early in my recovery, as my then husband'salcoholism was becoming more and more evident, and I was beginning to share with others in my family my distress.
They often had both advice and directives and judgmentsof my husband, and telling me what I should do.
I found that if I tried to share in a way that felt trueto Al-Anon by looking at myself, my role, my choices, they often felt it necessary to come to my defense.
(47:49):
I quickly learned to have those conversationswith other Al-Anon members, realizing that if I continued to indulge in eliciting poor you responses, I would never grow the way I wanted to.
Another time I brought to my regular Al-Anongroup as a topic, the question of what to do when my then husband criticized me.
I really had blinders on and felt backed into a corner.
(48:11):
Just could not see clearly my way out of it.
I always reacted with justifying, arguing,defending, and explaining myself to him.
which of course is Jade.
And then after the meeting, a member cameup to me and she gently said that maybe I could do some readings on detachment.
I didn't even get it at the time.
I was looking for an answer, butI just, I had these blinders on.
(48:33):
But it wasn't very long before I remembered the situation.
It was like big duh came to mind.
I was accompanied by a grin ofunderstanding, but that really was the key.
Detachment really, really was the key and it ties inwith that tradition about having no outside opinions.
I really liked how you tied that traditionin to your answer on the podcast.
(48:55):
Another time after I'd been in the program for about15 years, I had a friend who introduced me to someone.
She thought I could help.
I think she thought by introducing us, Iwould tell the other person that they should separate themselves from the person in her life.
It was using alcohol in excess.
I think my friend was quite surprised.
I declined to instruct our now mutualacquaintance on what she should do.
(49:19):
And again, that was detaching from what my otherfriends expectations were so I think actually there's lots and lots of literature on detachment.
There's a lot in the podcast about detachment, but thankyou for letting me share Spencer and have a great evening.
Bye.
Bye.
Thanks Pat, there's a lot of good stuffin there, thank you for sharing that.
(49:42):
A lot of experience that hopefully somebodyelse will be able to take something from.
You mentioned detachment as really the keyto those situations that you talk about.
The Al-Anon detachment flyer, pamphlet, whatever itis, it's like, you know, one narrow sheet printed on both sides, so I don't know exactly what to call it, is actually a free download from alanon.Org and I will put a link to that in the show notes at the recovery.
(50:11):
show slash four three zero.
And that's it for your voices in this episode.
Bart, I want to thank you, for joining me today,and, schooling us about Marineron, because I was not even aware that it existed before you contacted me.
So thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Spencer, for having me.
(50:31):
and hopefully, somebody is listening right now, right now inthe future, who will come and find exactly what they needed.
thanks so much and I really appreciate it.
Our last song selection is Break the Silence byDaphne Willis, which you can listen to at therecovery.
show slash four three zero.
(50:59):
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
Do you have a friend or relationwho's addicted to marijuana?
Have you heard of Mar-Anon?
Let's find out more.
Welcome to episode 430 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you byLiz, Androna, Lizbeth, and Sue.
They use the donation button on our website.
Liz, Androna, Lizbeth, and Suefor your generous contributions.
(00:22):
This episode is for you.
We are friends of family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
(00:42):
Before we begin, we'd like to state that in this show,we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
(01:03):
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today and joining me today is Bart.
Welcome to The Recovery Show, Bart.
Thank you, Spencer.
Glad to be here.
You're here to talk to us about The Mar a non program.
You brought a reading from The Language of Letting Go.
Yeah, I have the language of letting go by Melanie Beatty.
The one I picked out was, it's callednurturing ourselves from December 17.
(01:28):
Page 359 says,
Many of us have been so deprived of nurturingthat we think it's silly or self indulgent.
Nurturing is neither silly nor self indulgent.
It's how we show our love for ourselves.
That's what we're striving for in recovery.
A loving relationship with ourselves that works so wecan have loving relationships with others that work.
(01:53):
When we hurt, we ask ourselves whatwe need to help us feel better.
When we feel alone, we reach out to someone safe.
Without feeling that we are a burden,we allow that person to be there for us.
We rest when we're tired, eat when we're hungry,have fun or relax when our spirits need a lift.
(02:14):
Nurturing means giving ourselves gifts, a tripto the beauty salon or barbershop, a massage, a book, a new jacket or a new suit or dress.
It means a long hot bath to forget about our problems andthe world for a few moments when that would feel good.
We learned to be gentle with ourselves and to openup to the nurturing that others have to offer us.
(02:40):
As part of nurturing ourselves, we allowourselves to give and receive positive touch.
Touch that feels appropriate to us, touch that is safe.
We reject touch that doesn't feelgood or safe and is not positive.
We learn to give ourselves what we needin a gentle, loving, compassionate way.
(03:01):
We do this with the understanding it will not makeus lazy, spoiled, self centered, or narcissistic.
Nurtured people are effective intheir work and in their relationships.
We will learn to feel loved by ourselves so muchthat we can truly love others and let them love us.
(03:23):
Today, I will nurture myself.
I will also be open to the nurturing thatI can give to others and receive from them.
Thank you.
As an introduction to Mar-Anon, could you say a littlebit about what brought you, to this program of recovery?
Yes, about 20 years ago, my son was actually havingproblems with alcohol in college and he had an episode where the police had to come and it was a big, ugly scene.
(03:55):
He had a contusion because he fell down and ended upin the emergency room with a swelling in his brain.
So we rushed down to college.
When we met with a therapist about what hadhappened, they suggested that we go to Al-Anon.
So about 20 years ago, we went to our first Al-Anon meeting,my wife and I. There was about four people there, kind of a dark room, and long story short, after that meeting, my wife and I looked at each other on the way to our car in the parking lot and just said, I guess, Al-Anon isn't for us.
(04:29):
About five years later, we wentto another meeting, only parents.
About 50 people.
It was the opposite situation, well lit room.
And that's when it really connected with both of us.
In fact, when I started to share,I started crying like a baby.
Because I had felt all this shame and guilt and all thesefeelings I've been stuffing down for years come out.
(04:53):
So that was my first basically successful, Al-Anon meeting.
Then, many years later, actually in 2020,I was Googling about marijuana because both my sons became addicted to marijuana.
It's called cannabis use disorder.
My youngest son especially was having cannabis inducedpsychosis, many episodes of, cannabis induced psychosis.
(05:17):
And sadly, he ended up dying by suicide in 2018.
He was 29 years old.
The last articulate thing he said tome was cannabis has ruined my life.
He thought it was his medicine and he took more andmore and higher and higher THC cannabis or marijuana.
In 2020, while I was doing more researchabout it on the internet, I found Mar-Anon.
(05:40):
I emailed Mar-Anon and I asked about the meetings.
It was during COVID and the one personkeeping the website going and pretty much the whole thing going, her name is Brooke.
She said, there's no meetings.
because of, COVID and I said, can I start zoom meetings?
So I started these zoom meetings andthe thing just basically took off.
(06:01):
And now we have 2300 members, lots ofmeetings every week and that type of thing.
Wow.
That's pretty astounding.
Do you know how big the program was before the shutdown?
Yeah.
So before the zoom meeting started in Octoberof 2020, I think there were about 150 people that were connected through an email chain.
(06:25):
I think a couple of Facebook groups and it was about 150.
like I say, now we have like over 2, 300and we've got about 20 new members a week.
And of course, hardly anyone's ever heard of Mar-Anon.
Right.
all the meetings are currently online?
Almost, yeah, every meeting is almost on zoom.
We have two meetings that are in person, one inNewport beach and one in Albany, right next to Berkeley, California, and the San Francisco Bay area.
(06:55):
I had a question.
Back a little while.
You talked about your two first Al-Anon meeting experiencesand how, one of them just didn't work for you at all.
And then the later one you really connected with.
You know, when we get newcomers in a meeting, we alwaystry to remember to tell them, check out different meetings.
(07:19):
My experience is I've been to meetings that Ireally connect with and I've been to meetings that frankly, in some case, turned me off.
Luckily, I guess for me, the first meeting Iwent to was one I really connected with well, but then, people suggested other meetings.
And when I found myself in a position where I neededmore recovery than once a week, I checked out some of them and there were a couple that, And maybe it was just what happened that day, or maybe that was
(07:48):
something about that meeting in general that I justnever went back to because something happened that, that turned me away or that I just didn't connect with.
And so I think that's really important to emphasizeto people when they're new in a program is if you don't like this meeting, but you recognize that you want help.
There are other meetings and you may dobetter with one of the other meetings.
(08:11):
I totally agree.
When I think back to my first Al-Anon meeting, Ihave no idea what anybody said in that meeting.
I can't remember a single thing that was said, but I doremember feeling welcomed, and feeling like I wasn't alone.
Oh, yeah, I totally agree.
I said the second meeting when I started justcrying like a baby, once I started sharing at first, I'd say the first 15 seconds, I felt embarrassed.
(08:37):
But then it was amazing.
I felt the love of, all these people in the room.
It really was powerful.
And I felt the love and support.
And I felt really great.
I felt like a, a thousand poundpack had been taken off my back.
So let's talk about the Mar-Anon programbecause I am totally not familiar with it.
I probably could have done some Googling ahead of time.
(08:58):
It might have been helpful.
You know, I'm probably coming into this like justabout anybody who's listening to the podcast.
Like I've never heard of this.
I don't know what it's about.
Is it a 12 step program?
Yes, it's based on Al-Anon.
When we used to go to the Al-Anon meetings before wefound Mar-Anon, what would happen is whenever they would say alcohol, I would just switch in my head to marijuana.
(09:25):
We admitted we were powerless over marijuanaand that our lives have become unmanageable.
Exactly.
Basically, it's the same as Al-Anon.
Because we're so new, we don't have our own literature.
We, use, Al-Anon literature, and same thing, whenwe get to the word alcohol, we just, substitute marijuana, and then, of course, we get the word alcoholic, we'll say loved one, that type of thing.
(09:48):
We also, use the Language of Letting Go by MelodyBeatty, which is, of course, the reading I just read.
Because we're so new, we, haven't developedour literature yet, but we are in the process.
And on our website, there's a letter fromsomeone who has cannabis use disorder.
There's a letter from someone who has, cannabis inducedpsychosis, or at least has had episodes of that.
(10:10):
And there's a letter from someone who has, or had CHS,which stands for long term cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, where they just keep vomiting over and over.
I can talk more about that, but they're three letters.
Okay.
So the meeting's structured similarly to an Al-Anon meeting?
(10:34):
One of the things in Al-Anon, we'reencouraged to learn about alcoholism.
I imagine then in Mar-Anon, you're encouragedto learn about, cannabis use disorder.
I guess in Al-Anon, we could say alcohol use disorder,
Yes,
to bring it up to current terminology.
Exactly.
And then also it's interesting because we, as a groupdecided to in the do's and don'ts, one of the do's at the end of the meeting that we talked about is do go to open marijuana anonymous meetings and read their literature.
(11:08):
Okay.
I guess I've heard of, what do you call it?
MA, like AA.
Yeah, they havebout 500 meetings a week, alot of them are on Zoom, and a lot of them are open, just like an open AA meeting.
I see.
So the person, of course, who has cannabisuse disorder, when they're ready for recovery, Marijuana Anonymous is where they would go.
(11:28):
And then, for the loved ones, there's Mar-Anon.
So what do you find different in Mar-Anon?
That's a really good question, yeah.
So my Al-Anon sponsor said to me, when I told himthat, I was going to do these meetings through Mar-Anon, and he said, just do it through Al-Anon.
(11:50):
And I said, I understand his point,and actually, I also go to Al-Anon.
I go to an in person meeting, and I know alot of people in Mar-Anon also go to Al-Anon.
What I did say to him, as I said, the thing about thedifference between marijuana addiction and alcohol addiction is that so many people say it's just weed, it's just pot.
(12:14):
They say it's not addictive, grows out of theground, etc. And that person does not feel supported.
I'd say most people in Al-Anon wouldn't say that,there are still people who do say, Oh, alcohol's worse.
Alcohol can be worse for some people.
But marijuana can be worse for other people.
It's still an addiction.
(12:35):
You can go psychotic, and all these other,issues, what we were talking about, that you can have when you're basically addicted to cannabis.
I guess that makes sense.
Those of us who are in Al-Anon because of aproblem with alcoholism in a relative or friend, as our tradition puts it, we can find common experience and common ground with other members.
(13:02):
And say, Hey, my loved one, does this, has thesesymptoms and somebody else can say, So does mine.
This is my understanding, especially, when we'renew, don't really understand what's going on.
but if I was to come into an Al-Anon meeting and say,my loved one is smoking too much pot and is like having psychotic breaks, there might be somebody, if it's a big meeting, who could relate to that and could share their own experience with it, but less likely than if I came to a Mar-Anon meeting, I would imagine.
(13:37):
No question, in fact, a lot of newcomers will saysomething like, Finally, I found a group of people who understand, and don't say, it's just pot, or it's just weed.
Yeah.
So they feel supported.
If somebody wants to find a meeting,they would go to the Mar-Anon website.
(13:58):
Yeah, go to our website.
It's M A R hyphen A N O N dot com.
And then you go, the meetings section, that's whereyou're going to find the links to our Zoom meetings and the information about our two in person meetings.
I probably have said this before on the podcast,but one of the things I'm really grateful for that came out of the pandemic and there are only a few, is the growth of technologies for meeting online.
(14:24):
The prime example being, of course, Zoom.
People are more familiar with them,they're more comfortable using them.
I look at you, you look at me, youknow, we're in an older generation.
Which is often viewed as being not technologically savvy.
there are people in my meetings that meet online thatare significantly older than me and they figured it out.
(14:50):
Right.
Now, especially when, for whatever reason,we find it difficult to travel to a meeting.
Whether it's because the meetingis in California and I'm not.
Or , just because of weather orother issues that are going on.
I have a friend who's got some painful thing goingon with his knee, and he can still come to a meeting.
(15:14):
Because he can do it by Zoom.
Exactly.
I totally agree.
We have people that have beento our meetings from Australia.
Europe, Canada, Mexico, and of course,throughout the United States since 2020.
So that's five years.
Okay, I was going to say not fora very long time, but five years.
what changes do you see?
And maybe this is hard to say because it'salso coincided just with the growth of the program in general, as marijuana use becomes legal in more and more of at least the U. S.
(15:47):
We get so many people that say, Oh, my loved one,again, could be their son, their daughter, their husband or wife, or partner, that say, Oh, now that it's legal, they think it's okay to do it.
And that's one of the excuses they use, it's legal, andit's okay, it's medicine, it's not addictive, it's natural.
(16:12):
It's again the same stuff you'll hear from a lot of people.
And basically it's like alcohol, some peoplecan obviously drink casually, some people can't.
Some people can use marijuanacasually, and some people can't.
that's the way I look at it.
The other thing is that, when I was using it, whichI wish I never did, but I did in college, I was using, I think I actually got addicted to 3 percent THC, pot, that's what we called it back then.
(16:37):
3%, now a lot of people are vaping and using 60%.
70, 80, 90%. So even if we take 3 percent backin the seventies when I was doing it, and we go to 60 percent now, which again is very common.
that's 20 times more.
And so I asked people, I said, what do youthink is going to be the difference between somebody having one drink or having 20 drinks.
(17:03):
The other thing is that THC, which is the partthat gets you high of the marijuana plant.
The THC is fat soluble, so it sticks to fat.
Whereas, alcohol, we know is water soluble so you pee itout and one of the fattiest parts of our bodies are brains.
I know that, with alcohol, you take adrink, you're affected for a few hours, and then it's basically gone from your system.
(17:29):
My understanding with THC, like you said, is, you putit in your system and it sticks around for longer.
Correct.
It sticks to the fat in our brains in other places.
I'm going to change the subject here.
I'm looking at the Mar-Anon meetings list, andI see a lot of sort of specialized meetings.
(17:53):
So we have meeting for memberswith spouse and partner qualifiers.
We have a global meeting which tells what time it's on in,in Pacific and Ireland and Berlin and New Delhi and Sydney.
There's a book study, for Al-Anon's Paths to Recovery book.
(18:13):
Because as you say, you don't have the literature,but you can read the Al-Anon literature and just substitute marijuana for alcohol.
and then I came to this one.
Mar-Anon meaning for cannabis induced psychosis,cannabinoid hyper You mean, I can't even pronounce it.
So CHS, a lot of people just say.
I'll answer the question first, at least what I thinkyou're trying to get at is I want to make it clear to people that, I wouldn't, put too much emphasis on the title of the meeting because, it just means that group decided that they wanted to name it that name.
(18:49):
however, if you can make a meeting and you're curious.
I would go to any meeting and then you'll find that there'speople there that just have a loved one that suffers from cannabis use disorder, either they're in recovery, like going to marijuana anonymous, and that type of thing, or working with an addiction therapist, or they're not.
(19:11):
But I would just go to any meeting and just check it out.
We find this also in Al-Anon.
We have meetings that are focusing on, say, theexperience of being the parent of an alcoholic.
Meetings that focus on being an adult child of an alcoholic.
We have the Alateen, which is for,not quite adult children of alcoholics.
(19:33):
But the one that caught my eye was the oneabout, cannabis induced psychosis, et cetera.
And I'm like, okay, I think many people have somenotion about the diseases that come with alcoholism.
We've heard of them.
the cannabis use disorder related syndromesor diseases, whatever we want to call them, I think probably are less familiar to most people.
(19:59):
I agree totally.
And that's why I think Mar-Anon is importantto have in addition to Al-Anon because, the conditions that you say are different.
There's CHS, which some people call it scromiting.
So a lot of times people willscream and vomit at the same time.
Oh my goodness.
no, It's terrible and I hope nobody'seating, but anyway, it's really terrible.
(20:21):
people, unfortunately their kidneys have given outand a very small percentage have, died from it.
But usually people get to the emergency roomin time and they get fluids right into them.
It's very, debilitating and just to givepeople an idea, you can check out the, CHS.
Facebook recovery group has about 30, 000 members.
(20:42):
Wow.
I did some reading and some research on it andthey figure about two and a half million people have either had CHS or have CHS, the combination.
So about two and a half million.
A lot of times doctors and nurses, they know more about it,but they used to say, Oh no, marijuana can't cause that.
(21:03):
And yes, it can, unfortunately.
And then, Yeah, the Saturday meeting, if people canmake the Saturday meeting, which is like in that long title, then that would be, I would say, the meeting that probably people should at least try to go to at least once because we have 20 to 30 people in that meeting and a lot of them have been going for years.
(21:23):
And they know a lot.
They have a lot of recovery behind them.
And they are open to peoplecontacting them and helping them out.
They can provide support for people who aretrying to support their addicted loved one.
Exactly.
Yeah, okay.
This is where having the more focusedrecovery group on, marijuana, Naranon for opioids has been around for a long time.
(21:51):
we can find that kind of help, might not be available ascommonly in, in Al-Anon, which is, obviously the bigger program, the more well known, although it's not as well known as I wish it was, but you know, we're working on that.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you.
again, looking at the website, I see there's some pamphlets.
(22:11):
what is Mar-Anon, bookmark, what is cannabisuse disorder and about some of these,
Like CHS.
and, psychosis.
and a detoxing pamphlet.
Oh, those are for Marijuana Anonymous, those two.
CBD and detoxing.
oh, and here's your letters.
Okay.
I'm addicted to marijuana.
(22:31):
I need your help.
I have cannabis induced psychosis.
I need your help.
I have CHS.
I need your help.
So again, if people aren't sure whetherMar-Anon program was going to help them.
There's a lot of stuff here to help you figure it out beforeyou even take the chance of signing into a Zoom meeting.
And oh my god, I mean signing into aZoom meeting is so low barrier, right?
(22:55):
Because you can come in anonymous, leave your camera off.
I totally agree with you.
They don't have to have their camera on.
They don't have to share.
They can just check it out.
And like you said before that,you can check out the website.
Don't have to worry that somebodysees you going into the meeting.
There's so many people that go, What?
I can't believe you're making a big deal out of marijuana.
(23:17):
And a lot of that is because, again, it used tobe so weak, and now, most of it is very strong.
Yeah.
I have a son who I think he still uses it casually.
He was living in Colorado when recreational marijuana usebecame legal in Colorado, which was a few years ago now,
(23:37):
Right.
and he also vaped, nicotine.
And so he got himself some THC and put it in hisvape pen, and I think he said he was unable to do anything for hours because he put too much in.
Another thing that I wonder, in Al-Anon,our affected loved ones range from generally teenage children, through near end of life.
(24:00):
So we have parents, we have children, we have spouses.
What is your observation, if you can, about the age range ofthe addicted loved ones of the people who are in Mar-Anon?
that's a good question.
I go to a lot of meetings and I helprun the Mondays and Wednesday meetings.
(24:20):
I'd say around 14 to 15 usually is the youngest as faras their sons or daughters, and then up to in the 70s,
really say so sort of the same.
Somebody in their 70s, who'sstruggling with, cannabis use disorder.
Is this somebody who maybe started using recentlywhen it became legal, or they've been using their whole life and now they use more, or,
(24:46):
Most of them, been using their whole life.
some of them, of course, often on maybe their wholelife and others, they just enjoy it like people having a couple of drinks a night or something.
What's happened is with the legalization in a lotof states and the availability of very strong vapes, different types of like dabs, waxes, et cetera.
(25:08):
Where again, you're getting, upto, close to a hundred percent THC.
They can get that much more addicted to it.
Of course, we're talking about the users, which isnot what Mar-Anon's about, but I guess I'm trying to untangle what are the differences in the Mar-Anon members experience with their loved ones use and misuse and abuse versus alcohol, I'm just trying to understand that.
(25:33):
Okay.
So with alcohol, we've had hard alcohol for a long time.
what's new, what's different with the marijuana is wehaven't had high THC cannabis or marijuana for very long.
I would say the difference, because it's newon the scene and people didn't understand it.
(25:53):
And obviously, the more it affects our loved ones, whohave cannabis use disorder, then the more it affects us.
I guess I could make a parallel with opiates and opioidsin that respect, that the recent development of things like fentanyl have changed the risk profile for opiate users.
(26:16):
I agree.
I keep going off on these tangents because thesethings occur to me like differences between the way that marijuana affects the body and the mind and the way that alcohol affects the body and the mind and one of those that I really don't understand very well is how it affects your ability to drive.
I don't know what the legal situation is.
(26:39):
Is there some THC blood level orsomething that is equivalent to DUI?
I don't know.
That's a good question.
I think they're working on that, but I haven'treally heard any reliable tests at this time.
I do know that a lot of people think they canplay the guitar better, they can drive better, drive just as good, and all that, high on THC.
(27:01):
And when they've done the tests, in thelaboratories or whatever, they can't,
A friend of my ex wife's told this story.
This is back in maybe the 80s or the 70s.
He and his friend had gotten really stoned and theywere driving home on Interstate 15 and cop pulled him over and, comes to the window, asks the standard question, do you know how fast you were driving?
(27:24):
And he's like, I have no idea.
The cop says, you were going 20 milesan hour, that's why I pulled you over.
Yeah, so true.
Unfortunately, I know, there are definitely funny storiesand all that and I have some of my own, but, unfortunately, I know people whose loved ones have been killed by it.
People that are high on THC.
I'm sure.
(27:44):
And you probably met some of them in the meeting,
Yeah.
What else do you want to tell me about Mar-Anonand about how it has In particular, helped you.
I'm going to guess that your other son ismaybe still smoking marijuana or whatever.
it's a really good question.
I don't really know.
We don't have a relationship with him at this time,
(28:05):
Okay.
So I don't know.
However, I do know that starting the zoommeetings, and doing the work that I do, taking phone calls, answering emails, et cetera, being there to try to help others has really helped me.
Just like when I was in Al-Anon and I did the same typeof thing and I just feel like I have a purpose in my life and that I'm making a difference and that helps me.
(28:33):
You've been in Al-Anon for a while, so you, yougot detach and all that stuff from Al-Anon.
Has your attendance at Mar-Anon, deepenedthat in relationship to your son?
Yes, I think it's just basicallyreinforced that I can't control my son.
I can't change him.
(28:54):
It's helped me to live my life and take care of myself.
And, nurture myself and be as loving and kind as I canbe, and just hoping and praying for the best for my son.
Yeah, that's what we can do.
As we close down this conversation, what messagedo you have for somebody who's considering Mar-Anon or has just now heard of it?
(29:22):
I would say If you go to a meeting, I think you'llfind support and find people who understand.
Instead of if you went to your family members orfriends, a lot of times they'll say, again, it's just weed, it's just pot, that's in, something that you have a problem with, but it's no big deal.
So I think, if you just check out a meeting, again,you don't have to be on video, you don't have to share, I think you'll find a lot of support there.
(29:47):
Thank you.
I did ask you to pick some music and you picked three songsfrom Daphne Willis, which I am not familiar with her work.
what can you tell us about her in particular andthen about this first song you picked, I Am Enough?
to be honest, cause it's all about, we're, as sickas our secrets, I really don't know much about Daphne Willis because I don't listen to that much music.
(30:14):
I enjoy music when I hear it.
I asked a friend of mine, and she gave methese three and I actually listened to them.
I really liked them.
And I would say the title more than anything.
I am enough.
I really like it.
I think the message is that even thoughI don't have a relationship with my son right now and my other son passed away.
(30:36):
I do feel like I need to be reminded that I'menough and if I'm going to listen to any songs it's going to be positive songs like that.
Okay, there will be a video, on our website at therecovery.
show slash 430, the notes for this episode.
(30:57):
Go check that out.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
I have a sponsee who got partway through the steps andthen life changed and didn't have the time or the energy to continue, and is now back and saying, Hey, I think I need to really focus back on the steps, at this point in my life.
(31:31):
So we met yesterday.
I said, where do you want to go?
Do you want to start where we left off?
Do you want to go back to the beginning?
It's been a few years.
And so we agreed that, yeah, going back to thebeginning, at least reviewing the earlier steps.
because, you know, their outlook has changed, theirunderstanding has changed, their experience is different now, their loved one is suffering some severe medical, consequences as a result of their addiction.
(32:01):
So their life's in a different place.
We decided we would meet regularlybecause that is the way you get it done.
If you just say, Oh, we'll meet when we can.
You know what?
That doesn't happen.
So, we are setting up regular meetingtimes every couple weeks, and we're going to go back and start with step one again.
I think we'll probably go a little more quickly throughthe first three steps than we did the first time.
(32:26):
One of the things that is good for me here is thatit brings me back to looking again at, why I'm here.
what does step one mean for me today?
Because if we're going to talk about what step one meansfor my sponsee, we're also going to talk about what it means for me, or at least I'm going to talk about that to myself.
so this is, this is good.
(32:47):
and I now have two sponsees who are activelyworking the steps at the moment, so that's cool.
That's where I am in recovery right now.
Life has been fairly steady, and I've talkedabout that before in earlier episodes.
How about yourself?
What's going on in, in your recovery life?
Yeah, I would say that I do a lotof 12 step work, through Mar-Anon.
(33:10):
But someone said many years ago to mein Al-Anon, it's not a one step program.
So sometimes I forget about that, and I have to,right now, remind myself that I need to work the steps and continue to work the steps, not just say, over and over at meetings or just read about them, but I actually need to work them and more than just step 12.
(33:34):
Right now what I'm doing is I'm,focusing on steps one, two, and three.
And in my, brief summary of steps one, two, andthree is, I've heard this again many times before.
step one tells me that I can't do it by myself.
I can't work my recovery by myself.
I need my higher power.
I need other people in Al-Anon and in Mar-Anon to help me.
(33:59):
Okay.
So I can't do it by myself.
Number two, I'm gonna let my higher power andothers help me again, who are in the program.
And, number three, I'm coming to the conclusion thatit's impossible for me to just be sitting by myself and, not engage with the programs that work for me, which again is Al-Anon and Mar-Anon, and engage with the people that care, understand, and love and support me.
(34:30):
will respect my anonymity.
Yeah.
That's important.
Thank you.
I always, look forward a little bit what's coming upin the podcast and I'm still working on the steps.
I've got steps eight through 12 coming.
We always welcome your thoughts.
You can join our conversation.
You can leave a voicemail or send us an email with yourfeedback or your questions or your shares about the steps.
(34:55):
Bart, how can people send us feedback?
You can send a voicemail or email to feedback atthe recovery dot show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.
(35:18):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope,your questions about today's topic of Miranon.
Or any of our upcoming topics,including steps eight through 12.
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.
If you'd like an advance notice for some ofour topics, so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list.
(35:41):
By sending an email to feedback at therecovery dot show, put quote unquote, email in the subject line to make it easier to spot.
As you might have guessed bynow, the website is TheRecovery.
show.
There's some other aliases that alsowork if you're more familiar with those.
And you can find the current episode at TheRecovery.
(36:04):
show slash the number of the episode.
So this is 430, which is at therecovery.
show slash four three zero.
In there you will find links to Mar-Anon,a link to buy the Melody Beattie book, and the videos, for the songs by Daphne Willis.
(36:25):
We will take a short break before we dive into the mailbag.
Our second musical selection available on thewebsite is Keep On Keeping On by Daphne Willis.
(36:46):
Let's hear from you.
Kathy writes in response to the episode 427 titled Whenthe Behavior is Too Much for Most of Us with Misty B. Dear Spencer, what would I do without you and your show?
My 45 minute commute is so much betterwith you keeping me company most days.
I truly appreciate the hard work that goes into what you do.
(37:08):
The content and guests are always amazing, andI always seem to hear exactly what I need to.
thanks Kathy, and thanks Misty.
Mary writes, Hi, I have enjoyed your podcast.
Thank you.
I have tried to join some 12 step groups where I livein my local area, but I encountered some trouble.
It seems like the group I was inwas breaking many 12 step rules.
(37:30):
For example, despite rules about not proselytizing,it seemed like The codependency 12 step group that I tried to join was trying to get people from the group to attend services at a particular church.
I also learned more about the so called 13th step,and while this never happened to me, it makes me feel scared that there is not proper oversight to protect participants from predatory people who have bad intentions being in a 12 step program.
(37:54):
I also want to add that it seemed like the anonymous part ofthe 12 step groups was not being respected, where it seemed like people were gossiping in different 12 step groups about people in other groups, all about people in our local area.
It was in a manner that I thought was notrespectful of the sensitive details and the nature of what people share in 12 step groups.
For me, the anonymous part is veryimportant to feel comfortable in a group.
(38:16):
So I felt this was very damaging to my sense oftrust in 12 step programs, especially where I live.
My therapist believes in 12 step programs and hastold me that AA and similar programs saves lives.
I have heard people say it takes time to finda group where you feel a good sense of fit.
I don't live in a very large city, however, so Isometimes wonder whether there is any group that would be a good fit for me, especially as I don't want to be in a group where I'm being proselytized to, especially being told to attend services at a particular church or where anonymity is not respected.
(38:47):
Have you talked about these issues before?
Thank you.
Mary.
I don't think we've talked about those issuesin particular, it probably has come up in my conversations with some of my guests.
But it sounds like the Groups that you've checkedout are really not following the traditions.
(39:09):
Here's part of the thing, like we don't actuallyhave rules, we have traditions and recommendations.
One of the phrases that you may hearis obedience to the unenforceable.
Because no particular person or people aresupposed to be in charge of other people.
(39:30):
I think there's another tradition about that,being placed in authority over other people.
It really is the responsibility of every individual,and the group as a whole, to enforce adherence to the principles and if the group is unhealthy, then yeah, that's not going to happen and you're absolutely right to leave.
(39:52):
I'm hoping that your therapist might be able to referyou to some healthy groups in your area or online.
I did send you, a zoom link for anAl-Anon meeting that I trust online.
It's called You're Not Alone.
It's at 7 30 a. m. Eastern time every day.
If you're listening to the podcast and you'reinterested, you can find it on the alanon.Org site under, electronic meetings, global electronic area, I think is the subheading on the meetings menu.
(40:24):
Just type in, you are not alone, fourwords, and it should pop right up.
The things that Mary mentions, she mentions at leasttwo out of the three obstacles to success in Al-Anon.
You can just Google obstacles to success inAl-Anon, and it will pop up in several locations.
(40:47):
But it shows up in particular in the Al-Anon book, Al-Anonand Alateen Groups at Work, which is a free PDF download.
I'll put a link in the show notes at TheRecovery.
show slash 430.
It's on pages 20 to 21.
And reading says (41:04):
three obstacles to success in Al-Anon.
This passage has helped manygroups to resolve group problems.
All Al-Anon discussions should be constructive,helpful, loving, and understanding.
In striving toward these ideals, we avoid topics thatcan lead to dissension and distract us from our goals.
(41:26):
1. Discussions of Religion.
Al-Anon is not allied with any sect or denomination.
It is a spiritual program basedon no particular form of religion.
Everyone is welcome, no matter what affiliation or none.
Let us not defeat our purpose by entering intodiscussions concerning specific religious beliefs.
2. Gossip.
(41:47):
We meet to help ourselves and otherslearn and use the Al-Anon philosophy.
In such groups, gossip can have no part.
We do not discuss members or others,and particularly not the alcoholic.
Our dedication to anonymity givespople confidence in Al-Anon.
Careless repeating of matters heard at meetings candefeat the very purposes for which we are joined together.
(42:10):
3. Dominance.
Our leaders are trusted servants.
They do not govern.
No member of Al-Anon should direct,assume authority, or give advice.
Our program is based on suggestion, interchangeof experience, and rotation of leadership.
We progress in our own way and pace.
Any attempt to manage or direct is likely tohave disastrous consequences for group harmony.
(42:33):
So if you're in a group where one or more of these thingsis happening, my suggestion is find a different group.
Thanks for writing, Mary.
I would invite your sharing if you've experienced the kindof problems that Mary lists, and or have helped to resolve those kinds of problems in your group or in your life.
(42:55):
send us an email, a voicemail and share your experience.
Thanks.
Nora wrote, Hey Spencer, I hope you are well, havebeen meaning to leave feedback, but in terms of future podcasts, here are two that I would love to hear.
The first would be on two way prayer with Father Bill,who has a podcast and has really been helpful to me.
He is a historian of AA as well.
(43:16):
I really recommend his pod and would love tohear him tell you about two way prayer as a tool for Al-Anons and all who are in recovery or are interested in connecting with a higher power.
The second subject that I would love to heardiscussed probably with a panel or at least one person well versed in this is the non conference approved approach of using the Big Book.
(43:38):
That's the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book.
The third subject might be a stepstudy group that uses the Big Book.
I'm in it right now doing my secondinventory this way and man is it thorough.
I would likely ask the leaders of the groupto participate in your podcasts as they are quite articulate and have a ton of recovery.
Thanks, Spencer, for all you do.
It is an honor to get to do the pod with you.
(43:59):
I look forward to getting to do it againwhen I don't have undiagnosed Lyme disease.
All the best, Nora.
Nora was a guest on episode 413 Step1, Finding Strength in Surrender.
And she was a little fuzzy during part of our conversation.
(44:19):
Turned out she had Lyme disease and didn't know it.
I hope you're getting better, Nora.
I think I heard from you that you are.
Those are interesting topics.
and the second topic actually aligns with a topic thatsomebody asked about maybe last episode or two episodes ago about doing the steps using the AA Big Book approach.
(44:39):
It's not Al-Anon, obviously, but this podcast is centeredon Al-Anon, but it is not Al-Anon, and so it could be an interesting thing to talk about in an episode.
I have links to Father Bill'spodcast on Apple and Spotify also.
Jennifer says, Hi, I have beenlistening to your show for a few years.
(45:01):
I love it and thank you.
I don't know if you've ever done a show on dry drunks,but it is something that I would be interested in.
My husband has been sober for over 30 years, butas we got busy with having children and doing their activities, he stopped going to meetings.
One of our sons is an alcoholic, andthat's how I got back into Al-Anon.
I've been realizing that I do the samething to my husband as I did with our son.
(45:22):
I know that the steps are still the same,whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.
But sometimes I feel different becauseI only have his behavior to look at, not a reason for the behavior like drinking.
I don't know if that made sense.
Anyway, just a thought.
Thanks for all you and your show do.
Signed, Jennifer.
The way I think about it is that consuming alcohol isa symptom of the disease, and even when an alcoholic is not drinking, it still is advisable for them to treat the underlying isms, the underlying disease.
(45:55):
That's why, whether the alcoholic is still drinkingor not, when I first heard that, it's like, well, if they're not drinking, then why do we need a program?
As I discovered, my wife's been sober for19 and a half years and I still need my program because it's really not about her.
It's about me and the way that I react to otherpeople's behavior, and in particular to behaviors that activate some of my character defects.
(46:23):
That's what I need Al-Anon for.
I came to Al-Anon because of her drinking, of heralcoholism, and she still is an alcoholic and she still in her meeting says every time, I'm an alcoholic.
those are my thoughts.
I'd love to hear from others who have your ownexperience, strength, and or hope to share about living with an alcoholic who is sober, but not in recovery, I think is maybe the way to put it.
(46:55):
And how your Al-Anon program, helps you with that.
Got a voicemail from Pat
Hey Spencer, this is Pat from the West Coast.
I sat down to write about grief and relief, in yourrecent request and found myself instead writing in reply to the listener who asked about how to deal with friends telling her how to handle the alcoholic in her life.
(47:18):
and I remember early in my recovery, as my then husband'salcoholism was becoming more and more evident, and I was beginning to share with others in my family my distress.
They often had both advice and directives and judgmentsof my husband, and telling me what I should do.
I found that if I tried to share in a way that felt trueto Al-Anon by looking at myself, my role, my choices, they often felt it necessary to come to my defense.
(47:49):
I quickly learned to have those conversationswith other Al-Anon members, realizing that if I continued to indulge in eliciting poor you responses, I would never grow the way I wanted to.
Another time I brought to my regular Al-Anongroup as a topic, the question of what to do when my then husband criticized me.
I really had blinders on and felt backed into a corner.
(48:11):
Just could not see clearly my way out of it.
I always reacted with justifying, arguing,defending, and explaining myself to him.
which of course is Jade.
And then after the meeting, a member cameup to me and she gently said that maybe I could do some readings on detachment.
I didn't even get it at the time.
I was looking for an answer, butI just, I had these blinders on.
(48:33):
But it wasn't very long before I remembered the situation.
It was like big duh came to mind.
I was accompanied by a grin ofunderstanding, but that really was the key.
Detachment really, really was the key and it ties inwith that tradition about having no outside opinions.
I really liked how you tied that traditionin to your answer on the podcast.
(48:55):
Another time after I'd been in the program for about15 years, I had a friend who introduced me to someone.
She thought I could help.
I think she thought by introducing us, Iwould tell the other person that they should separate themselves from the person in her life.
It was using alcohol in excess.
I think my friend was quite surprised.
I declined to instruct our now mutualacquaintance on what she should do.
(49:19):
And again, that was detaching from what my otherfriends expectations were so I think actually there's lots and lots of literature on detachment.
There's a lot in the podcast about detachment, but thankyou for letting me share Spencer and have a great evening.
Bye.
Bye.
Thanks Pat, there's a lot of good stuffin there, thank you for sharing that.
(49:42):
A lot of experience that hopefully somebodyelse will be able to take something from.
You mentioned detachment as really the keyto those situations that you talk about.
The Al-Anon detachment flyer, pamphlet, whatever itis, it's like, you know, one narrow sheet printed on both sides, so I don't know exactly what to call it, is actually a free download from alanon.Org and I will put a link to that in the show notes at the recovery.
(50:11):
show slash four three zero.
And that's it for your voices in this episode.
Bart, I want to thank you, for joining me today,and, schooling us about Marineron, because I was not even aware that it existed before you contacted me.
So thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Spencer, for having me.
(50:31):
and hopefully, somebody is listening right now, right now inthe future, who will come and find exactly what they needed.
thanks so much and I really appreciate it.
Our last song selection is Break the Silence byDaphne Willis, which you can listen to at therecovery.
show slash four three zero.
(50:59):
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding love and peacegrow in you one day at a time.
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