April 19, 2025 • 61 mins
In the journey of recovery, Step Eight is a pivotal stage where individuals courageously face the consequences of their past actions and begin the path towards healing. This step involves making a list of all persons we have harmed and becoming willing to make amends to them all. Through the narratives and reflections provided by...
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(00:01):
How do we make a list of all thepeople we have harmed and then become willing to make amends to them all?
Welcome to episode 432of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Raquel,Kathy, anonymous, and Kimberly, they used the donation button on our website.
Thank you, Raquel, Kathy, anonymous, andKimberly for your generous contributions.
(00:23):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members ofalcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with theseemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our ownattitudes and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Before we begin, we would like to statethat in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
(00:50):
During this show, we willshare our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
My name is Spencer.
I'm your host today andjoining me today is Pat.
Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Pat.
(01:12):
Thank you, Spencer.
We'll be using the section on stepeight from the book, how Al-Anon works for Families and Friends of Alcoholics.
In the paperback edition,that's pages 57 to 59.
I know it does vary alittle bit between editions.
Step Eight made a list of allpersons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
(01:34):
First paragraph.
Most of us come to Al-Anon with adistorted sense of responsibility.
At first, some of us are a unable toname a single person we have harmed, feeling that we have been the victims of other people's cruel or insensitive behavior rather than the perpetrators.
We're so focused on others that wemiss the fact that our own behavior has not always been so wonderful.
(01:59):
No matter how pure our intentions,our actions have consequences, and sometimes intentionally or unintentionally, we hurt those around us.
At the time, we may have rationalized ourpoor treatment of others, feeling that we were only reacting to the way we had been treated, or that we had no choice.
But if we set all self-justificationaside and keep the focus strictly on ourselves, we must admit that we were responsible for causing harm.
(02:29):
When I got to step eight, Iwas like, have I hurt anybody?
I don't know.
You know, so this, at first,some of us are unable to name a single person we have harmed.
Part of that is the harms thathad been done to me were upfront.
But then, I thought about it a little bit.
I thought about at least my immediatefamily, my wife and my children, had been harmed by my behavior in many ways.
(02:53):
so set all self justificationaside, keep the focus on ourselves.
See, that keep the focusstrictly on ourselves part, too.
That, not so easy,especially early in program.
I started working the steps a couplemonths after I came into Al-Anon, and I think it was about a year before I got to step eight, but I was still pretty young in the program.
(03:18):
And still in the, the alcoholic chaosalso, which I think made it more difficult to keep the focus on myself.
This other thing about intentions.
In the youth group that I workwith, we talk about considering impact over intentions.
(03:38):
if I say something andsomebody else is like, ouch!
Even if I didn't mean to hurt them,the impact was that they were hurt.
I might have the best of intentions.
But it just might not work out that way.
So I think that's important too.
How about you?
What's this paragraph say to you?
As you spoke about intention, itcrossed my mind that, so much of my response to being in an alcoholic relationship, was one of trying to control my world, control those around me.
(04:11):
I think, it was a survivaltactic at the time.
And in trying to be controlling, I thinkmany times I thought my actions were for the best reasons and for the best.
So I think I caused a great deal of harmthinking I was doing the right thing.
Not necessarily doing that, but certainlytrying to control those around me.
(04:35):
Including not letting people feel theconsequences of their own actions.
I think that's where a lot of the harm.
In this first paragraph, I seea lot of the basic principles.
I mean, by the time you've gottento step eight, you've touched on a lot of these issues, I think.
Rationalizing andjustification for our actions.
(04:57):
The program really gets us tolook at ourselves honestly.
And the more honest we are,the more we can admit to our motivations around our actions.
For me, a lot of that was I wouldrationalize and justify my actions, but also that I did have a distorted sense of reality and I needed perspective.
(05:19):
The program as I've been workingat Steps one through seven gets me to a place in step eight where I've started having a better understanding
of my place in my relationships andmy place in the world, of what is and is not mine to make choices about.
(05:40):
That's what I thought.
Alright, let's move onto the second paragraph.
Others of us carry an unwarrantedburden of responsibility, believing ourselves to be the source of most of the pain and suffering in our lives and in the lives of those around us.
We feel that we have harmed everyonewith whom we have come in contact.
This is just as much a distortion ofreality as thinking we have done no harm.
(06:03):
Sometimes people's sufferingis of their own making.
Sometimes pain is just a part of life andsometimes we contribute to the problem.
Step eight provides an opportunityto learn the difference between what is and is not our responsibility and to take a more realistic look at the effects of our actions.
(06:24):
What do you see in that for you?
This really ties back for me to step four.
I feel like step four, stepeight and step 10 are all tied together within the program.
They all link.
I feel like this paragraphtalks about that building that we've done on step four.
I remember working with a sponseeand their list of character defects was extremely long.
(06:52):
But in working through that list, wewere able to identify what were actual moral issues and what were things that somebody else just didn't like her choice.
It was very freeing.
So then that led to step eight, wherethe list of amends were quite short.
(07:12):
But I love this middle part.
That really teases it out.
Sometimes the suffering isn'tours to take responsibility for.
Sometimes it's just partof life and sometimes we've contributed to the problem.
So I really like that it breaks that down.
And it's just that last section,where we really have to look at what we actually have to make amends for.
(07:36):
How about you, Spencer?
For me, as I said, I, when I first got tostep eight, I was like, who did I hurt?
Did I hurt people?
I don't think I had this unwarrantedburden of responsibility , believing myself to be the source of most of the pain and suffering around me.
That certainly became more evidentin working the earlier steps.
(07:59):
In working step four in particular.
Nowhere does this step say that welisted the harm others have done to us.
Although we do not have to acceptunacceptable behavior, it is not our job to pass judgment upon what others do or to punish anyone for their wrongs.
Our job is to concentrate on ourpart in our conflicts with others and what we have done to cause harm.
(08:27):
I have such a strong reaction to thatlittle tiny paragraph, 'cause stuck in the middle of it is this phrase, we do not have to accept unacceptable behavior.
And that is such a huge, how do I put it?
It's just such a huge thingthat we have to realize.
Learning to make, boundaries,learning to set boundaries, that are realistic and appropriate.
(08:55):
I think is so integrated into this step.
I mean, it's, it's understanding that wehave caused harm to ourselves and how have we caused harm to ourselves, oftentimes by not having healthy boundaries.
And then I think it segues nicelyinto step nine, where in making amends to ourselves, maybe part of that is making healthy boundaries.
(09:23):
This one little phrase in therejust really jumps out at me.
not passing judgment.
That took many years of work forme to remember that it's not my job to judge another person.
And really to always bringthe focus back on myself.
I like to say whatever the situation, ifsomeone's upset with me, I can look at it.
(09:48):
And even if I have only 2%of the responsibility for the situation, it's still the 2%, and I can address that part of it.
For sure.
Do not have to acceptunacceptable behavior.
That one kind of jumped out at me too, Iknow when I was hearing about acceptance, accept the things I cannot change.
(10:10):
Well, what about unacceptable things?
how do I accept those?
Right?
I've looked at acceptance in alot of different situations and from a number of different angles, throughout my time in, in program.
I heard this on another podcastrecently, that what I may need to accept is that things that were outside of my power happened.
(10:36):
I don't have to say they were good.
I don't have to say I liked them orto not say I didn't like them, I guess.
But I can't change thefact that it happened.
So when that comes to unacceptablebehavior, particularly in a person who persists in a certain pattern of behavior, my acceptance there is that this person has behaviors that I find unacceptable.
(11:03):
That then points me hopefully towardsactions I can take to remove that person, or remove the situations in which they behave in certain ways, from my experience, from my life.
I think that's what I keepcoming back to with acceptance.
What you said about boundaries, theway of dealing with harms that others have done to me or may do to me is to figure out appropriate boundaries that I can enforce.
(11:36):
And that I have to accept the possibleconsequences of enforcing the boundary.
But as it is not my job to say,that person is bad, however much I might think that.
By my judgment they're a badperson, presumably by their judgment, they're being appropriate.
I don't know.
it is not my job to punishanyone for their wrongs.
(11:57):
And again, this gets a little tricky.
Punishment, in my understanding,rarely leads to change behavior.
and it's taking the focus off ourselves.
and is taking the focus off me.
Right?
There's nowhere in Al-Anon that saysanything about punishing another person.
I think that's so much about whatthe program says is putting things in their proper perspective.
(12:19):
And very solid, proper perspectiveis I'm not responsible for other people's behavior.
If they cause harm to me, it's myjob to think about what do I wanna do in response to that in a thoughtful, positive way that works for me.
I didn't cause it.
I can't cure it.
I can't control it.
(12:41):
I know I felt that significantharm had been done to me, was still being done to me at this point, by the behavior surrounding the active alcoholism in my loved one.
You know, she was drinking at me.
Well, she was not drinking at me, but, ittook a while to figure that out, right?
(13:01):
if she loved me, she would stop drinking.
Until I was able to look at how I acted,or I should say reacted, probably because reaction to me implies you're not really thinking about it, you're just doing it.
How I've reacted to the alcoholicbehavior and the harms that my actions, my reactions, then caused, Those are the things that I need to list in this step.
(13:31):
Fourth paragraph.
Usually there is one person upon whomwe have inflicted the greatest damage.
I'm gonna pause there, because oneperson upon whom we have afflicted the greatest damage, I might've said, the alcoholic in my life.
Or I might've said my children.
If I just read the first part of thatsentence and stopped at that dash.
but it continues, ourselves.
(13:54):
what, how did I hurt myself?
Wait, what are you talking about?
Most of us have been crueland more negligent to ourselves than to anyone else.
By our reactions to the disease ofalcoholism and our desperate efforts to survive in difficult situations, we have harmed ourselves mentally, physically, and spiritually.
So before any other names areadded to our eight step list, most of us need to write our own name.
(14:19):
I'm just, we have harmed ourselvesmentally, physically, and spiritually.
And when I think about the ways inwhich I acted before coming into recovery, all of those, mentally, physically, and spiritually happened.
I could look at those as consequences,but some of them were deliberate.
(14:41):
Certainly as a result of theways in which I reacted mentally and emotionally to the alcoholic behavior, I didn't get enough sleep.
I found myself, as I've said many timesbefore, very angry a lot of the time.
That's a spiritual harm.
Not getting enough sleep, I thinkis both mental and physical and possibly spiritual harm as well.
(15:07):
I didn't know how to do it differently.
I didn't have any tools, for example, to,to help me get to sleep when things around me were not the way I wanted them to be.
The other part here, we've beencrueler and more negligent to ourselves than to anyone else.
One of the things that, that I heardover and over again in people's shares and in the literature is this question, would you talk to anyone else, the way in which you talk to yourself?
(15:39):
Would you to their face,call them a blinking idiot?
How many times have I done that to myself?
Crueler and more negligent tomyself than to anyone else.
Again, this is a short paragraph,but it brings up so much and helps me to reflect and realize.
(16:01):
yeah, that's true.
And that might not have come out in stepfour, depending how I did step four.
if I was doing the resentmentmethod, did I resent myself?
No.
Okay, then no problem.
But when I think about how have Iharmed myself, how have I been cruel and negligent to myself, oh, wow.
Okay.
I guess I put my name on the list.
(16:22):
How about you?
I think this paragraph for me makesme think about taking responsibility for my own reactions, and when I take responsibility for my own reactions, then it says I have choice.
If my reactions are always, well,I couldn't help myself, I had to.
I was forced to, somebodyelse pushed me into it.
(16:44):
They did X, Y, or Z. Anytime I'mdoing that, I'm handing over my power and choices to another person.
As soon as I start taking responsibilityfor those reactions, then I now have choices about what I'm gonna do.
And actually, it's the one time thatwe have control over the cure and it's when we're working on curing ourselves.
(17:07):
It's interesting that youmentioned self language because that's certainly has changed.
I used to call myself a dingleberry a lot
Dingleberry.
Okay.
I don't call myselfthat very often anymore.
I also reacted with a lot of anger.
Oh my gosh, a lot of stress.
God only knows how many yearsI took off my life with the amount of stress I was feeling.
(17:28):
I'm fortunate it didn't express itselfin physical ways, in terms of illness.
But self-care was thevery bottom of the list.
I remember growing up, therewas a book called I Am Third.
I think I might have mentioned thison another podcast, but man, in retrospect, that's a terrible message.
Yeah.
(17:49):
Yeah.
Everyone else is second God's first.
Everyone else is second.
I am third.
Man, that is not, that's not whatI learned in Al-Anon, but it was kind of the approach I took to life.
If you do it that way, younever get to third base.
You're always stuck at second base.
So as far as you can go, Thoseare my thoughts about that.
(18:11):
Yeah.
And actually I don't know that I everphysically put myself on that list.
even now, I have to say in thisconversation after all these years, and I've been in Al-Anon since 2005, so 20 years this year, Spencer, in November, that'll be my 20th anniversary of being reborn and getting choked up.
(18:33):
And all that time, I don't think inall the times I've done the steps I've ever actually put myself on the list, much less at the top of it.
I think working the programhas acknowledged it.
I'm looking at some of the things Iwrote the first time I did step eight.
There was a questionfrom Paths to Recovery.
Do I recognize when my mindingsomeone else's business may have harmed them or others?
(18:57):
I wrote at work, I might deny somebody'sabilities, deny them opportunity for growth, deny opportunity to show abilities and knowledge, and I might run somebody down to others.
Ooh.
At home.
kids know how to do things.
Imply that they don't,it hurts their feelings.
Denying others humanity,dignity, and competence.
(19:19):
Condescending buttinski., It did give mean opportunity to look at some of the ways in which I might have harmed other people.
Now, there's no specificpeople's names on these things.
On the next page, I had a very short list.
Myself, my wife, my two children,and then one labeled coworkers.
(19:41):
I started to do this three columnapproach that was recommended.
Who did I harm, how did I harm them,and what amends might be appropriate.
The second two columnsare completely blank.
I did the best I couldat the time, I guess.
Right.
I've worked the steps many times andI love doing a fourth step around a specific situation, but it's like any kind of growth, it takes time
(20:06):
to build up those rings of growthand those rings of experience and knowledge and understanding.
so that each time you are that muchbigger, you are that much more mature.
Yep.
the first four paragraphs reallycover recognizing who we might have harmed and what sorts of harms we might have done, including to ourself.
(20:27):
As we move into the fifth paragraph, weget to the second part of the step, which is about becoming willing to make amends.
Once our list is made, we face the taskof becoming willing to make amends.
It's not enough to simply admit toourselves that we have been at fault.
Taking responsibility for ouractions means making amends for the harm we have done.
(20:49):
We needn't concern ourselves withthe form or amends will take at this point that comes in step nine.
For now, our only concern isfinding the willingness to do what is necessary to right past wrongs.
The willingness maynot arrive all at once.
In fact, some of us find ithelpful at first to divide our list into three columns.
(21:12):
Those we are willing to make amends,those we may possibly make, and those we cannot imagine ourselves ever making.
As time and healing progress, mostof us find ourselves gradually becoming willing to make even those inconceivable amends, because we learn that we owe it to ourselves to do so.
As with the rest of recovery,becoming willing to make amends is a process that takes time.
(21:39):
Yeah.
One of the ones that I facedhead on at this point was making amends to my alcoholic wife, who was still actively drinking.
At that time, that puther in the hell no column.
I don't know that that's the never column,but it's definitely the not now column.
(22:01):
What I like about this, and I willgo back for a moment to step four.
When I, started doingit with the blueprint.
The first question in the blueprint bookasks about how was I dishonest as a child?
If I remember correctly.
I had to write some stuff down.
And then my mind immediately went to,am I gonna have to make amends for this?
(22:26):
I talked to my sponsor and he said,right now you're just making a list.
We will worry about that whenwe get to step eight or nine, but right now, don't go there.
Because if you go there, it will makeit a lot harder to do your inventory.
I think even here where it says,we needn't concern ourselves with the form our amends will take at this point that comes in step nine.
(22:53):
That makes me wonder about thistable that I started to make when I was doing step eight in 2003 or oh four, what form might amends take?
it's looking ahead already.
Now, I think I made that whenI was basically at the end of studying step eight at least.
and the fact that I didn't write it downsuggests that I wasn't ready to think about that for some people at least.
(23:16):
It was not just willingness to makeamends, but what form, you know, step nine says, made direct amends.
And I wasn't willing, ready tomake direct amends to my wife.
But I could be willing tomake changes to my behavior.
(23:37):
To not make those harms or at leastreduce those harms in the future.
Again, looking forward to step nine,but to me that's one of the really important parts of making amends.
It's not just an apology.
I have to change something, usually,in order to not do the harm again.
(23:58):
I have been willing to changemy behavior before I was willing to directly admit my fault.
As time and healing progress, I didfind myself becoming willing to make more amends, to make more direct amends, to make more living amends.
(24:18):
'cause I owe it to myself to do so.
One of the things that happened duringthe drinking years was I built a wall, an emotional wall between me and her.
And that harmed both of us.
First I had to recognize that I haddone that, and then I had to gradually, as it says here, take it down.
'Cause I had gotten hurt and Ididn't want to get hurt again.
(24:41):
And even though I knew that thingshad changed, that our relationship was healing, that fear of touching the hot stove was still there.
The willingness is a process thattakes time and the actual amends is a process that takes time.
Yeah, that's what I've got.
A lot in that paragraph.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I find it interesting because byputting willingness into the step.
(25:04):
It does a very important thing.
It slows us down.
'cause the temptation, I think,is very human and always, let's see, what are the three As?
Awareness, acceptance, and then action.
Yeah.
This takes awareness and acceptanceand puts it in step eight.
(25:26):
It puts action in step nine.
I love the series awareness,acceptance, action.
Until I accept, truly accept my behavior,my past behavior, my past choices, the past harms I have caused, I cannot truly make amends to anyone else.
(25:49):
So it's very intentional thatyou have an action in this step.
I think.
Making that list.
But then it slows you down.
You gotta look at this willingnessissue before you're allowed to even move into step nine.
I would guess there are many sponsorsponsee relationships out there where the sponsor has pulled the sponsee back, Nope, we're still on step eight.
(26:14):
Nope.
Don't worry about step nine.
We're still on step eight.
I think a lot of that process and whatyou were saying, Spencer reflects it, is it's looking at how we feel about those we are going to make amends to, it's about addressing the feelings we have.
For me, when I look at the people thatI needed most to make amends towards, they were people that I was looking at in a very one dimensional way, a me versus them kind of antagonistic way.
(26:48):
and I needed to changethe way I looked at them.
I need to look at them as wholeindividuals before I could truly make effective, honest amends to them.
To me, the willingness portion of thisis about seeing those we're making amends to in a more complete and whole light.
(27:14):
And then an aside about makingamends themselves, as I feel like in making amends to people.
In particular, I think of mybrother-in-law that was just a little, that was a snot.
I was just a snobby jerk tothe guy, the poor fellow.
I just didn't give him the time of day andthought he was less than, I'm embarrassed to say it, but in making living amends to him, I ended up taking those habits of
(27:41):
treating him kindness and gentleness andrespect, and that gave me practice and it created a habit that then got extended to all kinds of people in my life.
Not that I was as bad a snot to othersas I was to him, but you get the idea.
(28:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
again, I'm looking backat my notebook here.
There was a question in the Pathsto Recovery book, how patient am I in allowing myself to grow into the willingness for making difficult amends?
And I wrote, I think I can waitfor the willingness to come.
The question is, am I too willing to wait?
It's always balancing, isn't it?
(28:22):
Last paragraph of this section.
In considering the eighth step, it isimportant to remember that until we can take this step in a spirit of self-love and healing, we may not be ready for it.
Step eight, like the othersteps, is a step toward healing.
It is not about humiliating ourselves ormaking others feel better at our expense.
(28:42):
It is about owning up to what wehave done and becoming willing to free ourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.
I think that's important.
Yeah.
Very much like step four.
Yeah, absolutely.
It is not a kick yourselfin the butt step,
Right.
It's easy to read those words.
(29:05):
I think it's harder for me at least, toact on them, to not feel humiliated, to not feel less than, to not feel broken.
and certainly the practice ofhaving done step four and step five moved me in that direction.
(29:26):
And six and seven.
Those center four steps are aboutstarting to accept myself as I am warts and all, as they might say.
owning up to what we havedone and become willing.
I love this.
Becoming willing to freeourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.
I have a story, this was a step10 story, but it works here too.
(29:51):
I was in a meeting at work, I wasbecoming annoyed, shall we say.
I was becoming annoyed at one of theother people in the meeting who kept bringing up something that I didn't think was something we needed to talk about.
And I was very short with him to the pointwhere, and I don't remember the exact words I used, but he said, that's it.
(30:13):
I'm outta here.
He picked up his stuff, left themeeting, actually went home for the day.
At the moment I realized, thatwasn't so good, was it?
and that evening I got an emailfrom my boss who said, we need to talk about this, be in my office at nine o'clock in the morning.
So I knew that some amends were needed,and I wanted to, if possible, to get them done before I went to talk to my boss.
(30:40):
so I came in early, and luckily theother guy was also an early arriver.
And I said to him, I wanna apologize forthe way in which I spoke to you yesterday.
It was inappropriate and unneeded.
And he said, my actionsweren't so good either.
Something like that.
I don't remember again,the exact words, And then.
(31:02):
That was it between us.
Like we had made the amendsthat needed to be made.
We had each owned up to what we had done.
And that freed me from the guilt and shamethat I had been carrying about what I did.
And then I was able to go tomy boss and say, we're good.
(31:23):
we worked it out.
so yes, that actually is what canhappen when I, let me say correctly, practice step eight and then nine.
You have thoughts on this paragraph?
Guilt and shame.
They are big red hot buttontopics and they go into my closet with all my skeletons.
(31:49):
That's what skeletons are.
They're guilt and shame about the past.
Having gone through step four witha sponsor, that was with a single person that I knew would accept me, regardless of what I told them, and often could tell me that I was not alone.
I was not.
(32:10):
I just somehow grew up always thinkingthat if I did something wrong, I was the only person that had ever done that wrong.
I was the only person that was that bad.
So to do it with my sponsor, who I couldtrust and know they weren't gonna walk away, they weren't gonna beat me up for what I told them, was incredibly freeing.
(32:34):
And I found that when I letthose skeletons out the closet, they went from 10 feet tall to 10 inches tall or even smaller.
So I think the challengewith step eight and nine.
And what really makes me wanna put thebrakes on the willingness issue, is I'm taking my guilt and shame out into the whole world and there's no guarantee.
(32:59):
Why wouldn't we be frightful?
Why wouldn't we be unwilling or worryabout doing amends when we're taking this out to people who are not in our program, who are not accepting and loving.
Those brakes come on real hard,real fast because I've been hiding that guilt and shame from everybody.
(33:22):
And to do it and risk rejection,risk somebody saying, yeah, you were a jerk to me, is, wow.
That's a very, you can tell I'm gettingemotional just thinking about it.
That's a very intense thing to do andyou have to have a lot of self-love to be able to have the perspective to say that once I acknowledge this behavior, that I'm no longer proud of and I'm no longer willing to hide from, I will be free.
(33:56):
It takes a lot of time and alot of work and a lot of thought work to get to that place.
I think.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That ended up being kind of intense.
Yeah.
it's an intense step.
It really is.
The program's kind of intense.
yeah.
(34:17):
Okay, we'll take, a little break totalk about some music and then we'll continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.
Pat, tell us about thefirst song you chose.
the first song I chose is pretty intense.
You can listen to it on the websiteat recovery show slash 4 3 2.
(34:38):
it's by Eminem.
he has his own video that goes with it.
Cleaning out my closet, and it'sjust such a complicated song.
he is not a hundred percent all the wayto, I don't know what he's doing, but for me it's all about what it says to me.
It seems like in cleaning out hiscloset, he is talking about his mother.
He's apologizing for making hismother cry, but it's clear that his mother was also an addict to pills.
(35:02):
and it seems like it's this cleaningout his closet is similar to this process of working through the steps.
Doing an inventory and like step eight,also putting himself on the top of the list of people who he has harmed, trying to set healthier boundaries.
Even when someone else has harmedus, acknowledging the times we have harmed others, including the addicts in our lives.
(35:26):
there's just a lot to the song.
I really liked it.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
Couple weeks ago, I spent a weekendlocked in a church with only about 20 teenagers and some other adults also.
(35:54):
it was a lot of fun.
I actually get energy from them.
I get joy.
This was the first one since the pandemic.
So it had been a while.
Almost none of the youth who were therehad ever experienced one of these before.
This was not just, kids from my church,but from several other churches in Michigan and one in Indiana and one in Ohio, coming together for the weekend.
(36:21):
A few days later, I got an email froma friend who said his son had raised some concerns about what was going on, and he wanted to talk to me about them.
He said, I'd rather do this in person.
I don't wanna do this byemail or over the phone.
I was like, okay.
So we set up a time to, to meet ina coffee shop on a Saturday morning.
(36:42):
I have to admit that I was having sometrepidation about what he might say.
did something happenthat I wasn't aware of?
It turned out no, that wasn't the case.
there's my future catastrophizingin action already.
We had a really good conversation,but I think for me, the thing that I see as having really learned in recovery, was sitting there and really listening to what he had to say.
(37:13):
Not trying to justify,argue, defend, or explain.
Trying to understandwhat his concerns were.
and that is not something that Iwould have been able to do without all of the practice that I get sitting in meetings where there's no crosstalk or being a sponsor.
Then I used some of those sponsor tools.
(37:36):
I reflected back to himwhat I had heard him say.
We had some conversation about things weactually disagree on, and left with me saying, I can take, these concerns to the other people involved and we'll see if we need to make some changes in response.
We also had some more lightheartedconversation about the fact that his son is wedded to his phone.
(38:01):
And in fact, he said he feelsthat his son only experiences his life through his phone.
and we both agreed that wasprobably not a good thing.
And that, we needed to also payattention to that for ourselves.
But it was not anythinglike what I had feared.
It was good.
And again, just practicing theseprinciples that I've learned over the years, can make what could have been an unpleasant interaction, pleasant for me.
(38:31):
And I think for him too.
I guess the other thing thatoccurred recently, I wanna talk about the book, how Al-Anon works.
In one of my meetings, actually both ofmy meetings now are doing readings from that book and then sharing our reactions, responses, whatever to, to the reading.
In one meeting, we are reading thestories in the back of the book.
(38:56):
In that meeting, traditionally, wewould do a first step meeting when we get a new person coming in and we would go back to page 45 of how Al-Anon works and read through step one and then, share our experiences.
But all of the stories in the backof the book pretty much are in one way or another, newcomer friendly.
(39:17):
Nice.
So, we don't really have to change whatwe're doing when there's a newcomer.
The stories cover lots ofdifferent people's experiences of alcoholism and entry into the program and what they got from it.
I don't think there's been asingle one that I cannot find points of identification in.
Some more strongly than others.
(39:38):
My other meeting we're alsoreading how Al-Anon works.
But we started at the beginning, thefirst few chapters really take me back and help me to see how far I have come since I first came into Al-Anon and I was first reading those chapters, you know.
Uh.
(39:58):
It's been fun and we'll see how itgoes as we move through the chapters.
Sometimes we can't get through awhole chapter in one meeting because some of the chapters are pretty long.
We've got some people who've beenin program for 20 years or more.
We've got some people who are more recentor who have bought the book more recently.
And we're discovering someof the differences between the different editions of the book.
(40:20):
One person's like.
my book's got another paragraph at the endof this section that you guys didn't read.
And that led us into this conversation.
Well, this book has three whole newsections that your book doesn't.
I put the Kindle version up on thescreen so we could all read from the same version at that point.
The other thing I wanna say, and I'mgonna keep on saying this, about my life in recovery in the near future, which is that my wife and I are going to the AA International Convention in Vancouver at the beginning of July.
(40:50):
I just got an email from Al-Anon saying,Hey, do you wanna sign up to be a speaker, lead a panel, lead a workshop, something?
And I was like, yes.
So I, they had a form to fill out,and we'll see if what comes of that.
I might end up being up infront of the room or I might end up just being in the room.
We'll see.
I do wanna say to anybody who'slistening, if you're planning to be there, send me an email.
(41:15):
the feedback at the recovery show workswell to get to me and, let's figure out, how we can meet up while we're there.
And that's what I've got.
Okay.
I am just coming back into in-personmeetings, and enjoying them.
It's a little challenging becausesome of my shifts are 12 hour shifts.
(41:37):
Some of them are eight hour shifts.
that makes me gone in the evening.
My spouse is semi-retired.
I'm not retired yet.
I work full time.
so he really values his time with me.
Before Covid I stopped goingto an evening meeting, which was my initial home group.
And then I started goingto a morning meeting.
(41:59):
I have to admit, I got very spoiled.
And because of the whole work thing, Iwasn't going on weekend meetings either.
Well, that doesn't leave a lot.
It leaves an occasional weekday meeting.
'cause I have some weekdaysoff from time to time.
But I was going to those and Covidcame along and I gotta admit, I just stopped, relied on the podcast, a great deal for my contact.
(42:23):
An occasional Zoom meeting.
Relied on my sponsor.
and I just recognized recently, Ijust need to put more time into it.
So that's what I've been doing.
I've been making it tosome local meetings.
I've found a couple that I really enjoy.
and it's just been nice to be backin an in-person community again.
(42:45):
I never really clickedwith the online meetings.
They never really worked for me.
It's obvious if I have the opportunityto multitask or try to do something else instead I tend to go there.
So I'm really enjoying thisgetting back into real meetings.
And that segues also was somethingelse that happened, which was we were gonna do this podcast and I could not find my, how Al-Anon works.
(43:12):
So I've had sponsors and sponsees,so that's another point of contact through Covid, a sponsor and a sponsee and run into people from time to time.
Had given away my How Al-Anon Works book.
So I was looking around and inmy city, lots of the meetings are still online, not in person.
The one I could find wasthe all men's meeting.
(43:35):
So I got up there and went to theall men's meeting and I know Al-Anon proper says we're not supposed to be giving 'em exclusive names.
know, so I got there early,got in, bought my book.
The guy said, Nope, we're all men's.
And he said, we'd have to talk aboutit and we're gonna let you be in.
I'm like, oh, okay.
If that's not cool with you guys fine.
(43:56):
I go out to my car and my husband,who's out of town calls me and so we started having this pretty intense conversation about something else that happened where he is.
And one of the guys comes out from themeeting and says, oh, we talked about it.
You can join us.
So I got this wonderful meeting.
It was fascinating to go in andsee, what is an all mens meeting?
(44:18):
they were lovely.
It was Al-Anon.
It was great.
It was about step four.
It was interesting to seehow that conversation went.
But you know, a step four conversationcan go just about anywhere.
That was my meeting for the week.
I really enjoyed that.
Another related note is that my, sponsorof, well, she's the only sponsor I've ever had, is suffering from Alzheimer's.
(44:46):
Oh.
And somebody asked me.
At my workplace, I get to interactwith lots of different people.
And one person had a whole purse fullof Al-Anon literature, so I felt pretty much at liberty to ask her about it.
So I did.
And she asked me aboutwhether I had a sponsor.
(45:08):
I'm not sure why.
Just out of the, you know, andI said, I actually don't, I don't have a sponsor anymore.
And I think I have to grieve that.
Yeah.
My sponsor isn't able to, I govisit her, but I, she can't, she doesn't do readings anymore.
(45:28):
I often thought that as she aged,it would be a comfort that I could read Alanon literature to her.
And it's not something anymore.
She enjoys my visits, which is nice.
but I realized I don't have a sponsor.
And that's an interesting place to be.
So when I was at this men's groupand they said, do you have a sponsor?
I wrote No
(45:49):
Rate.
that's sad.
It
it is so I'm dealing with the grieving.
and then on an unrelated note,we've been talking about retirement.
It's a few years away from me,but I've been wondering what the heck am I gonna do in retirement?
I know I need to do for me, I needto do some kind of volunteer work.
(46:09):
And I was at work and heard a presentationabout an incredibly valuable project that the person doing it only has the bandwidth to do it in a very small portion of the institution.
And I thought, oh, that fits.
I cannot tell you, Spencer, how comfortingit was to feel that I had a project that I could do in retirement that uses all of my skills and would help other people because the person running this program is just squeezing it in, here and there.
(46:47):
Has no designated time,no administrative support.
And I thought, I have all the skillsfor this and could expand it to go across the whole institution and not just be limited to one area.
The comfort that came withthat was just amazing.
I haven't told the person yet, 'causeI'm still four years from retirement.
(47:09):
but you know how that is, your hairstarts turning gray and how many wrinkles you have on your face.
People start asking youhow long before you retire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
anyway, that's, that is Ithink my week in recovery.
All right, thank you.
Looking forward, we are movingforward on, our series of episodes on the 12 steps.
(47:31):
We still have steps ninethrough 12 to cover.
We welcome your thoughts, yourinput, join our conversation here.
Leave us a voicemail or send us an emailwith your feedback, your questions, your experience, strength, and hope about, step eight or steps nine, et cetera.
Some things to think about.
(47:52):
If you're thinking about step nine.
How do you separate stepeight from step nine?
We talked about that a little bitand we also were, in places I think not quite able to enforce that separation in our conversation.
how have you made direct amends?
If you have.
Did you ever experience someonewho wasn't interested or received them in a difficult way for you?
(48:15):
Have you ever received amends?
What did that mean for you?
How did you feel about it?
What worked or did not work foryou in the way it was given to you?
Those are all things to think about.
I'm gonna have to think about those too.
Pat, how can people send us feedback?
How can people contributeto our conversation?
You can send a voice memo or emailto feedback at the recovery show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5 to repeat 7 3 4 7 0 7.
(48:51):
8, 7, 9, 5. You can also use thevoicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, andhope, or your questions about today's topic of step eight or any of our upcoming topics, including steps nine through 12.
(49:12):
And if you'd have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, please let us know.
I think there was a really excellentepisode recently that was from someone calling in saying they were curious about something.
If you would like advance noticefor some of our topics that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for mailing list by sending in an email to feedback at the recovery show.
(49:34):
Put email in the subject lineto make it easier to spot.
Spencer, where can our listeners findout more about the recovery show?
that would be our website, the RecoveryShow, where we have all the information about the show, mostly notes for each episode, which would include links to the
books that we mentioned, which I guessis just How Al-Anon Works, this week, videos for the music that Pat chose.
(49:57):
And also on the website there's somelinks to other recovery, podcasts and websites, not in any sense of the word, complete or even exhaustive.
we'll take a short breakbefore diving into the mailbag.
And the second musical selection,again, available on the website is Apology Song by the Decembrists.
(50:19):
I just can't seem to resistputting in a song that makes me laugh whenever I co-host.
This is about the songwriter'sfriend's bike, that he's left to look after the bike, and he leaves it unlocked and it gets stolen.
I think there's just so many otheractions where we make poor choices or it's a poorly thought out action, that results in harm to another.
(50:41):
but it is a funny songand it's very catchy.
it is.
I'm really sorry, Steven.
But your bicycle's been stolen.
I was watching it for you tilyou came back in the fall.
I guess.
I didn't do such a good job after all.
I was feeling really sorry, Steven,and I spent all morning grieving.
That's the first verse.
(51:01):
and it just goes on.
I meant her no harm when Ileft her unlocked outside the Orange Street Food Farm.
I was just running in.
Didn't think I'd be that long.
Justify, arguing and explain there, right?
Defend.
Yeah.
It's a great song.
I know I've used it before.
I don't remember what episode.
Probably one about either stepeight, step nine or step 10, one of those, but always bears repeating.
(51:34):
And now it's time to hear from you.
Joanne writes an alapal,I love that, Alapal.
An alapal sent me the link for yoursite and I just listened to your podcast number 411, which was titled Growth and Challenges in Al-Anon Service with Eric as my guest.
(51:55):
As of January this year, I'mthe new area Alateen coordinator and what a learning curve.
This Saturday will be 33 yearsin the program and the first time in an area position.
Lots of challenges in services in myarea, and I'm passionate about Alateen and Al-Anon, as well as having four adult kids who have all struggled in their own way, and 12 grandkids ranging from one to 25.
(52:19):
All again, having had their struggles.
And there has been such a struggle inbetween a new career, a new position in the program, family challenges, and a new attitude about where I fit in everything.
I'm feeling overwhelmedand perhaps a bit alone.
Doreen E suggested that perhaps EricMay be a person to connect with regards to Alateen and trying to get it active in the Maritimes, and I may do so.
(52:43):
I have a lot of reading to do.
I particularly like what you sharedabout the program and having a voice.
After a short time in the program,I wasn't feeling good about it.
Dominance, bullying, and afew things you mentioned.
I ended up with the privilege of beinga newcomer in a focus group with many longtime members, and I found a voice when I see the traditions not being adhered to.
(53:06):
Sometimes with my knees shakingand my voice cracking, I do it.
For Al-Anon.
There are some challenges happeningnow in my group, and I really got so much from listening to your podcast.
I plan to come back again.
Thank you for sharing your experience,strength, time, and the music.
Take care.
Joanne.
Thanks for writing, Joanne.
I forwarded your email to Eric and I'mhopeful that he will be able to, provide some experience, strength and hope and support for you in your new position.
(53:36):
I know he had a lot of things to sayabout what he had done in his public outreach position about starting or enhancing Alateen in his area.
So I think he's got some realexperience there for you.
Thank you for taking onthat Alateen position.
I know Alateen is struggling in my area.
There are only a few districtsthat even have Alateen meetings.
(54:02):
Pete writes,
hello Spencer.
There's been a lot of upheaval anduncertainty in this country in the last decade, and it seems to have intensified in the last few months.
I've found it to be incredibly upsettingand I've had a hard time focusing and turning it over to my higher power.
The crux is that much of itis political and we don't talk about politics in program.
I was wondering how folks workedthrough and talked about this within the confines of the traditions.
(54:27):
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Pete.
that's a really good question, Pete.
I've heard people say things like,there's a lot of conflict happening in our country and our politics right now, and I'm having trouble dealing with it emotionally, spiritually.
There've been so many changes happeningrecently, and I just have a hard time dealing with that rapid pace of change.
(54:52):
Those are things that to my mind, don'tpoint at one politic or another, but at the impact of what is happening on myself.
I recently listened to an episodeof the podcast Fragmented to Whole, where the host, Barb, talked about how she just doesn't pay any attention to the news, and that is what she needs for her own peace and serenity.
(55:20):
Obviously, that doesn'twork for all of us.
Some of us, like me, feel likewe have to maintain at least some minimal connection to what's going on.
But I have set some boundaries onhow much and how I consume news.
Even when I might be listening to thingsthat I agree with, it can still cause some emotional turmoil in me, some stress, and I just don't need that.
(55:51):
I don't need that stress.
So finding the right balancefor yourself can be hard.
It takes probably some experimentation.
But I think things that you can, to mymind, bring up within the constraints of the traditions is, what's happening in the world, in our country, right now is having a deep impact on me.
(56:15):
And I'm having trouble maintainingmy serenity, maintaining my peace.
Maintaining my stability,mental and spiritual stability.
Those are things that I thinkare legitimate program topics.
If you want to get into specifics, Iwould say yeah, don't do it in a meeting.
Find one or more, as Joanne calledthem, alapals, friends in program and have that conversation outside the confines of the meeting.
(56:44):
I haven't really had the courage tohave conversation with somebody who just fundamentally disagrees with me.
But, I know people who do and whofind it enlightening and helpful.
And not infrequently, find commonagreement on values and principles, even when there is significant disagreement on details and outcomes.
(57:06):
There's just some thoughtsthere and you can hear I'm sort of struggling with it myself.
So thanks for writing, Pete.
Patrick wrote to say he is also planningto attend the AA International Convention in Vancouver this July 3rd to fifth.
He is also booked on the same Alaskancruise that my wife and I are booked for.
There's a group of in recoverypeople who will be dining and so on together on the cruise.
(57:31):
So that should have some great timefor recovery conversations, both at the convention and on the cruise.
And he has a topic idea, asomewhat provocative one.
Is Al-Anon really for men.
I am not sure what he thinks there.
I can have some ideas.
He says, let's talk about it whilewe're cruising informally, you know.
(57:54):
I'm gonna bring along my recorder.
So we might actually have aconversation for the podcast.
Who knows?
But what do you think about this question?
I got a review on Apple Podcaststitled, Eternally Grateful for this Pod.
From ralorlob is the screen name.
I'm so grateful to Spencer and all hisguests for the time spent on this podcast.
(58:16):
It has kept me company andprovided me with comfort at some of the lowest points in my life.
The work you do really matters.
Thank you, from the UK.
Well, thank you for that reviewand if you wanna leave a review on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you listen to the podcast on, please do.
Podcast reviews and ratings providesome evidence for people who are considering listening to the podcast as to the value that you get from it.
(58:45):
So thanks again.
And that's it for this week.
Pat, I want to thank you for joiningme today for a conversation about step eight, a little bit of a deep dive, I think into step eight.
I wanna thank you, Spencer, becauseit's always a delight working with you.
I always go places my brainwould not go otherwise, like any other good Al-Anon conversation.
(59:09):
And, the service you have providedfor our community is immeasurable.
I have to say for anyone out therelistening, think about co-hosting with Spencer, he makes it super easy.
He's able to edit out any bloops you have,and it's really an enjoyable experience.
You don't have to stress about it.
It's not live.
(59:31):
It is not live.
Yes, and I do edit it.
Our last song selection is in between byLinkin Park, which you can also listen to at the recovery show slash 4 3 2.
gosh, this is a beautiful song.
It's so pretty.
I got the lyrics.
Let me apologize to begin with.
(59:53):
Let me apologize for what I'm aboutto say, but trying to be genuine was harder than it seemed, and somehow I got caught up in, in between.
Let me apologize to begin with.
Let me apologize forwhat I'm about to say.
But trying to be someone elsewas harder than it seemed, and somehow I got caught up in between, between my pride and my promise.
(01:00:18):
Between my lies and how the truthgets in the way, and things I wanna say to you get lost before they come.
The only thing that'sworse than one is none.
Oh, I just love that song.
I cry easily, by the way.
, I think it speaks to the fact thatthese are not easy steps that we take.
(01:00:40):
they take a lot of time and a lotof introspection, and it's painful to admit when you've been wrong.
It's really painful to admit thatwe're not the people we've wanted to be or we thought we were.
And then taking that to another person.
Wow, what a tough spot.
So I just love this song.
(01:01:06):
Thank you for listening andplease keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you'refacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love and peacegrowing you one day at a time.
How do we make a list of all thepeople we have harmed and then become willing to make amends to them all?
Welcome to episode 432of the Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Raquel,Kathy, anonymous, and Kimberly, they used the donation button on our website.
Thank you, Raquel, Kathy, anonymous, andKimberly for your generous contributions.
(00:23):
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members ofalcoholics and addicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with theseemingly hopeless problem of addiction, understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our ownattitudes and we believe that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Before we begin, we would like to statethat in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
(00:50):
During this show, we willshare our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you'll find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
My name is Spencer.
I'm your host today andjoining me today is Pat.
Welcome back to the Recovery Show, Pat.
(01:12):
Thank you, Spencer.
We'll be using the section on stepeight from the book, how Al-Anon works for Families and Friends of Alcoholics.
In the paperback edition,that's pages 57 to 59.
I know it does vary alittle bit between editions.
Step Eight made a list of allpersons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
(01:34):
First paragraph.
Most of us come to Al-Anon with adistorted sense of responsibility.
At first, some of us are a unable toname a single person we have harmed, feeling that we have been the victims of other people's cruel or insensitive behavior rather than the perpetrators.
We're so focused on others that wemiss the fact that our own behavior has not always been so wonderful.
(01:59):
No matter how pure our intentions,our actions have consequences, and sometimes intentionally or unintentionally, we hurt those around us.
At the time, we may have rationalized ourpoor treatment of others, feeling that we were only reacting to the way we had been treated, or that we had no choice.
But if we set all self-justificationaside and keep the focus strictly on ourselves, we must admit that we were responsible for causing harm.
(02:29):
When I got to step eight, Iwas like, have I hurt anybody?
I don't know.
You know, so this, at first,some of us are unable to name a single person we have harmed.
Part of that is the harms thathad been done to me were upfront.
But then, I thought about it a little bit.
I thought about at least my immediatefamily, my wife and my children, had been harmed by my behavior in many ways.
(02:53):
so set all self justificationaside, keep the focus on ourselves.
See, that keep the focusstrictly on ourselves part, too.
That, not so easy,especially early in program.
I started working the steps a couplemonths after I came into Al-Anon, and I think it was about a year before I got to step eight, but I was still pretty young in the program.
(03:18):
And still in the, the alcoholic chaosalso, which I think made it more difficult to keep the focus on myself.
This other thing about intentions.
In the youth group that I workwith, we talk about considering impact over intentions.
(03:38):
if I say something andsomebody else is like, ouch!
Even if I didn't mean to hurt them,the impact was that they were hurt.
I might have the best of intentions.
But it just might not work out that way.
So I think that's important too.
How about you?
What's this paragraph say to you?
As you spoke about intention, itcrossed my mind that, so much of my response to being in an alcoholic relationship, was one of trying to control my world, control those around me.
(04:11):
I think, it was a survivaltactic at the time.
And in trying to be controlling, I thinkmany times I thought my actions were for the best reasons and for the best.
So I think I caused a great deal of harmthinking I was doing the right thing.
Not necessarily doing that, but certainlytrying to control those around me.
(04:35):
Including not letting people feel theconsequences of their own actions.
I think that's where a lot of the harm.
In this first paragraph, I seea lot of the basic principles.
I mean, by the time you've gottento step eight, you've touched on a lot of these issues, I think.
Rationalizing andjustification for our actions.
(04:57):
The program really gets us tolook at ourselves honestly.
And the more honest we are,the more we can admit to our motivations around our actions.
For me, a lot of that was I wouldrationalize and justify my actions, but also that I did have a distorted sense of reality and I needed perspective.
(05:19):
The program as I've been workingat Steps one through seven gets me to a place in step eight where I've started having a better understanding
of my place in my relationships andmy place in the world, of what is and is not mine to make choices about.
(05:40):
That's what I thought.
Alright, let's move onto the second paragraph.
Others of us carry an unwarrantedburden of responsibility, believing ourselves to be the source of most of the pain and suffering in our lives and in the lives of those around us.
We feel that we have harmed everyonewith whom we have come in contact.
This is just as much a distortion ofreality as thinking we have done no harm.
(06:03):
Sometimes people's sufferingis of their own making.
Sometimes pain is just a part of life andsometimes we contribute to the problem.
Step eight provides an opportunityto learn the difference between what is and is not our responsibility and to take a more realistic look at the effects of our actions.
(06:24):
What do you see in that for you?
This really ties back for me to step four.
I feel like step four, stepeight and step 10 are all tied together within the program.
They all link.
I feel like this paragraphtalks about that building that we've done on step four.
I remember working with a sponseeand their list of character defects was extremely long.
(06:52):
But in working through that list, wewere able to identify what were actual moral issues and what were things that somebody else just didn't like her choice.
It was very freeing.
So then that led to step eight, wherethe list of amends were quite short.
(07:12):
But I love this middle part.
That really teases it out.
Sometimes the suffering isn'tours to take responsibility for.
Sometimes it's just partof life and sometimes we've contributed to the problem.
So I really like that it breaks that down.
And it's just that last section,where we really have to look at what we actually have to make amends for.
(07:36):
How about you, Spencer?
For me, as I said, I, when I first got tostep eight, I was like, who did I hurt?
Did I hurt people?
I don't think I had this unwarrantedburden of responsibility , believing myself to be the source of most of the pain and suffering around me.
That certainly became more evidentin working the earlier steps.
(07:59):
In working step four in particular.
Nowhere does this step say that welisted the harm others have done to us.
Although we do not have to acceptunacceptable behavior, it is not our job to pass judgment upon what others do or to punish anyone for their wrongs.
Our job is to concentrate on ourpart in our conflicts with others and what we have done to cause harm.
(08:27):
I have such a strong reaction to thatlittle tiny paragraph, 'cause stuck in the middle of it is this phrase, we do not have to accept unacceptable behavior.
And that is such a huge, how do I put it?
It's just such a huge thingthat we have to realize.
Learning to make, boundaries,learning to set boundaries, that are realistic and appropriate.
(08:55):
I think is so integrated into this step.
I mean, it's, it's understanding that wehave caused harm to ourselves and how have we caused harm to ourselves, oftentimes by not having healthy boundaries.
And then I think it segues nicelyinto step nine, where in making amends to ourselves, maybe part of that is making healthy boundaries.
(09:23):
This one little phrase in therejust really jumps out at me.
not passing judgment.
That took many years of work forme to remember that it's not my job to judge another person.
And really to always bringthe focus back on myself.
I like to say whatever the situation, ifsomeone's upset with me, I can look at it.
(09:48):
And even if I have only 2%of the responsibility for the situation, it's still the 2%, and I can address that part of it.
For sure.
Do not have to acceptunacceptable behavior.
That one kind of jumped out at me too, Iknow when I was hearing about acceptance, accept the things I cannot change.
(10:10):
Well, what about unacceptable things?
how do I accept those?
Right?
I've looked at acceptance in alot of different situations and from a number of different angles, throughout my time in, in program.
I heard this on another podcastrecently, that what I may need to accept is that things that were outside of my power happened.
(10:36):
I don't have to say they were good.
I don't have to say I liked them orto not say I didn't like them, I guess.
But I can't change thefact that it happened.
So when that comes to unacceptablebehavior, particularly in a person who persists in a certain pattern of behavior, my acceptance there is that this person has behaviors that I find unacceptable.
(11:03):
That then points me hopefully towardsactions I can take to remove that person, or remove the situations in which they behave in certain ways, from my experience, from my life.
I think that's what I keepcoming back to with acceptance.
What you said about boundaries, theway of dealing with harms that others have done to me or may do to me is to figure out appropriate boundaries that I can enforce.
(11:36):
And that I have to accept the possibleconsequences of enforcing the boundary.
But as it is not my job to say,that person is bad, however much I might think that.
By my judgment they're a badperson, presumably by their judgment, they're being appropriate.
I don't know.
it is not my job to punishanyone for their wrongs.
(11:57):
And again, this gets a little tricky.
Punishment, in my understanding,rarely leads to change behavior.
and it's taking the focus off ourselves.
and is taking the focus off me.
Right?
There's nowhere in Al-Anon that saysanything about punishing another person.
I think that's so much about whatthe program says is putting things in their proper perspective.
(12:19):
And very solid, proper perspectiveis I'm not responsible for other people's behavior.
If they cause harm to me, it's myjob to think about what do I wanna do in response to that in a thoughtful, positive way that works for me.
I didn't cause it.
I can't cure it.
I can't control it.
(12:41):
I know I felt that significantharm had been done to me, was still being done to me at this point, by the behavior surrounding the active alcoholism in my loved one.
You know, she was drinking at me.
Well, she was not drinking at me, but, ittook a while to figure that out, right?
(13:01):
if she loved me, she would stop drinking.
Until I was able to look at how I acted,or I should say reacted, probably because reaction to me implies you're not really thinking about it, you're just doing it.
How I've reacted to the alcoholicbehavior and the harms that my actions, my reactions, then caused, Those are the things that I need to list in this step.
(13:31):
Fourth paragraph.
Usually there is one person upon whomwe have inflicted the greatest damage.
I'm gonna pause there, because oneperson upon whom we have afflicted the greatest damage, I might've said, the alcoholic in my life.
Or I might've said my children.
If I just read the first part of thatsentence and stopped at that dash.
but it continues, ourselves.
(13:54):
what, how did I hurt myself?
Wait, what are you talking about?
Most of us have been crueland more negligent to ourselves than to anyone else.
By our reactions to the disease ofalcoholism and our desperate efforts to survive in difficult situations, we have harmed ourselves mentally, physically, and spiritually.
So before any other names areadded to our eight step list, most of us need to write our own name.
(14:19):
I'm just, we have harmed ourselvesmentally, physically, and spiritually.
And when I think about the ways inwhich I acted before coming into recovery, all of those, mentally, physically, and spiritually happened.
I could look at those as consequences,but some of them were deliberate.
(14:41):
Certainly as a result of theways in which I reacted mentally and emotionally to the alcoholic behavior, I didn't get enough sleep.
I found myself, as I've said many timesbefore, very angry a lot of the time.
That's a spiritual harm.
Not getting enough sleep, I thinkis both mental and physical and possibly spiritual harm as well.
(15:07):
I didn't know how to do it differently.
I didn't have any tools, for example, to,to help me get to sleep when things around me were not the way I wanted them to be.
The other part here, we've beencrueler and more negligent to ourselves than to anyone else.
One of the things that, that I heardover and over again in people's shares and in the literature is this question, would you talk to anyone else, the way in which you talk to yourself?
(15:39):
Would you to their face,call them a blinking idiot?
How many times have I done that to myself?
Crueler and more negligent tomyself than to anyone else.
Again, this is a short paragraph,but it brings up so much and helps me to reflect and realize.
(16:01):
yeah, that's true.
And that might not have come out in stepfour, depending how I did step four.
if I was doing the resentmentmethod, did I resent myself?
No.
Okay, then no problem.
But when I think about how have Iharmed myself, how have I been cruel and negligent to myself, oh, wow.
Okay.
I guess I put my name on the list.
(16:22):
How about you?
I think this paragraph for me makesme think about taking responsibility for my own reactions, and when I take responsibility for my own reactions, then it says I have choice.
If my reactions are always, well,I couldn't help myself, I had to.
I was forced to, somebodyelse pushed me into it.
(16:44):
They did X, Y, or Z. Anytime I'mdoing that, I'm handing over my power and choices to another person.
As soon as I start taking responsibilityfor those reactions, then I now have choices about what I'm gonna do.
And actually, it's the one time thatwe have control over the cure and it's when we're working on curing ourselves.
(17:07):
It's interesting that youmentioned self language because that's certainly has changed.
I used to call myself a dingleberry a lot
Dingleberry.
Okay.
I don't call myselfthat very often anymore.
I also reacted with a lot of anger.
Oh my gosh, a lot of stress.
God only knows how many yearsI took off my life with the amount of stress I was feeling.
(17:28):
I'm fortunate it didn't express itselfin physical ways, in terms of illness.
But self-care was thevery bottom of the list.
I remember growing up, therewas a book called I Am Third.
I think I might have mentioned thison another podcast, but man, in retrospect, that's a terrible message.
Yeah.
(17:49):
Yeah.
Everyone else is second God's first.
Everyone else is second.
I am third.
Man, that is not, that's not whatI learned in Al-Anon, but it was kind of the approach I took to life.
If you do it that way, younever get to third base.
You're always stuck at second base.
So as far as you can go, Thoseare my thoughts about that.
(18:11):
Yeah.
And actually I don't know that I everphysically put myself on that list.
even now, I have to say in thisconversation after all these years, and I've been in Al-Anon since 2005, so 20 years this year, Spencer, in November, that'll be my 20th anniversary of being reborn and getting choked up.
(18:33):
And all that time, I don't think inall the times I've done the steps I've ever actually put myself on the list, much less at the top of it.
I think working the programhas acknowledged it.
I'm looking at some of the things Iwrote the first time I did step eight.
There was a questionfrom Paths to Recovery.
Do I recognize when my mindingsomeone else's business may have harmed them or others?
(18:57):
I wrote at work, I might deny somebody'sabilities, deny them opportunity for growth, deny opportunity to show abilities and knowledge, and I might run somebody down to others.
Ooh.
At home.
kids know how to do things.
Imply that they don't,it hurts their feelings.
Denying others humanity,dignity, and competence.
(19:19):
Condescending buttinski., It did give mean opportunity to look at some of the ways in which I might have harmed other people.
Now, there's no specificpeople's names on these things.
On the next page, I had a very short list.
Myself, my wife, my two children,and then one labeled coworkers.
(19:41):
I started to do this three columnapproach that was recommended.
Who did I harm, how did I harm them,and what amends might be appropriate.
The second two columnsare completely blank.
I did the best I couldat the time, I guess.
Right.
I've worked the steps many times andI love doing a fourth step around a specific situation, but it's like any kind of growth, it takes time
(20:06):
to build up those rings of growthand those rings of experience and knowledge and understanding.
so that each time you are that muchbigger, you are that much more mature.
Yep.
the first four paragraphs reallycover recognizing who we might have harmed and what sorts of harms we might have done, including to ourself.
(20:27):
As we move into the fifth paragraph, weget to the second part of the step, which is about becoming willing to make amends.
Once our list is made, we face the taskof becoming willing to make amends.
It's not enough to simply admit toourselves that we have been at fault.
Taking responsibility for ouractions means making amends for the harm we have done.
(20:49):
We needn't concern ourselves withthe form or amends will take at this point that comes in step nine.
For now, our only concern isfinding the willingness to do what is necessary to right past wrongs.
The willingness maynot arrive all at once.
In fact, some of us find ithelpful at first to divide our list into three columns.
(21:12):
Those we are willing to make amends,those we may possibly make, and those we cannot imagine ourselves ever making.
As time and healing progress, mostof us find ourselves gradually becoming willing to make even those inconceivable amends, because we learn that we owe it to ourselves to do so.
As with the rest of recovery,becoming willing to make amends is a process that takes time.
(21:39):
Yeah.
One of the ones that I facedhead on at this point was making amends to my alcoholic wife, who was still actively drinking.
At that time, that puther in the hell no column.
I don't know that that's the never column,but it's definitely the not now column.
(22:01):
What I like about this, and I willgo back for a moment to step four.
When I, started doingit with the blueprint.
The first question in the blueprint bookasks about how was I dishonest as a child?
If I remember correctly.
I had to write some stuff down.
And then my mind immediately went to,am I gonna have to make amends for this?
(22:26):
I talked to my sponsor and he said,right now you're just making a list.
We will worry about that whenwe get to step eight or nine, but right now, don't go there.
Because if you go there, it will makeit a lot harder to do your inventory.
I think even here where it says,we needn't concern ourselves with the form our amends will take at this point that comes in step nine.
(22:53):
That makes me wonder about thistable that I started to make when I was doing step eight in 2003 or oh four, what form might amends take?
it's looking ahead already.
Now, I think I made that whenI was basically at the end of studying step eight at least.
and the fact that I didn't write it downsuggests that I wasn't ready to think about that for some people at least.
(23:16):
It was not just willingness to makeamends, but what form, you know, step nine says, made direct amends.
And I wasn't willing, ready tomake direct amends to my wife.
But I could be willing tomake changes to my behavior.
(23:37):
To not make those harms or at leastreduce those harms in the future.
Again, looking forward to step nine,but to me that's one of the really important parts of making amends.
It's not just an apology.
I have to change something, usually,in order to not do the harm again.
(23:58):
I have been willing to changemy behavior before I was willing to directly admit my fault.
As time and healing progress, I didfind myself becoming willing to make more amends, to make more direct amends, to make more living amends.
(24:18):
'cause I owe it to myself to do so.
One of the things that happened duringthe drinking years was I built a wall, an emotional wall between me and her.
And that harmed both of us.
First I had to recognize that I haddone that, and then I had to gradually, as it says here, take it down.
'Cause I had gotten hurt and Ididn't want to get hurt again.
(24:41):
And even though I knew that thingshad changed, that our relationship was healing, that fear of touching the hot stove was still there.
The willingness is a process thattakes time and the actual amends is a process that takes time.
Yeah, that's what I've got.
A lot in that paragraph.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I find it interesting because byputting willingness into the step.
(25:04):
It does a very important thing.
It slows us down.
'cause the temptation, I think,is very human and always, let's see, what are the three As?
Awareness, acceptance, and then action.
Yeah.
This takes awareness and acceptanceand puts it in step eight.
(25:26):
It puts action in step nine.
I love the series awareness,acceptance, action.
Until I accept, truly accept my behavior,my past behavior, my past choices, the past harms I have caused, I cannot truly make amends to anyone else.
(25:49):
So it's very intentional thatyou have an action in this step.
I think.
Making that list.
But then it slows you down.
You gotta look at this willingnessissue before you're allowed to even move into step nine.
I would guess there are many sponsorsponsee relationships out there where the sponsor has pulled the sponsee back, Nope, we're still on step eight.
(26:14):
Nope.
Don't worry about step nine.
We're still on step eight.
I think a lot of that process and whatyou were saying, Spencer reflects it, is it's looking at how we feel about those we are going to make amends to, it's about addressing the feelings we have.
For me, when I look at the people thatI needed most to make amends towards, they were people that I was looking at in a very one dimensional way, a me versus them kind of antagonistic way.
(26:48):
and I needed to changethe way I looked at them.
I need to look at them as wholeindividuals before I could truly make effective, honest amends to them.
To me, the willingness portion of thisis about seeing those we're making amends to in a more complete and whole light.
(27:14):
And then an aside about makingamends themselves, as I feel like in making amends to people.
In particular, I think of mybrother-in-law that was just a little, that was a snot.
I was just a snobby jerk tothe guy, the poor fellow.
I just didn't give him the time of day andthought he was less than, I'm embarrassed to say it, but in making living amends to him, I ended up taking those habits of
(27:41):
treating him kindness and gentleness andrespect, and that gave me practice and it created a habit that then got extended to all kinds of people in my life.
Not that I was as bad a snot to othersas I was to him, but you get the idea.
(28:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
again, I'm looking backat my notebook here.
There was a question in the Pathsto Recovery book, how patient am I in allowing myself to grow into the willingness for making difficult amends?
And I wrote, I think I can waitfor the willingness to come.
The question is, am I too willing to wait?
It's always balancing, isn't it?
(28:22):
Last paragraph of this section.
In considering the eighth step, it isimportant to remember that until we can take this step in a spirit of self-love and healing, we may not be ready for it.
Step eight, like the othersteps, is a step toward healing.
It is not about humiliating ourselves ormaking others feel better at our expense.
(28:42):
It is about owning up to what wehave done and becoming willing to free ourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.
I think that's important.
Yeah.
Very much like step four.
Yeah, absolutely.
It is not a kick yourselfin the butt step,
Right.
It's easy to read those words.
(29:05):
I think it's harder for me at least, toact on them, to not feel humiliated, to not feel less than, to not feel broken.
and certainly the practice ofhaving done step four and step five moved me in that direction.
(29:26):
And six and seven.
Those center four steps are aboutstarting to accept myself as I am warts and all, as they might say.
owning up to what we havedone and become willing.
I love this.
Becoming willing to freeourselves from the guilt and shame our actions have caused us.
I have a story, this was a step10 story, but it works here too.
(29:51):
I was in a meeting at work, I wasbecoming annoyed, shall we say.
I was becoming annoyed at one of theother people in the meeting who kept bringing up something that I didn't think was something we needed to talk about.
And I was very short with him to the pointwhere, and I don't remember the exact words I used, but he said, that's it.
(30:13):
I'm outta here.
He picked up his stuff, left themeeting, actually went home for the day.
At the moment I realized, thatwasn't so good, was it?
and that evening I got an emailfrom my boss who said, we need to talk about this, be in my office at nine o'clock in the morning.
So I knew that some amends were needed,and I wanted to, if possible, to get them done before I went to talk to my boss.
(30:40):
so I came in early, and luckily theother guy was also an early arriver.
And I said to him, I wanna apologize forthe way in which I spoke to you yesterday.
It was inappropriate and unneeded.
And he said, my actionsweren't so good either.
Something like that.
I don't remember again,the exact words, And then.
(31:02):
That was it between us.
Like we had made the amendsthat needed to be made.
We had each owned up to what we had done.
And that freed me from the guilt and shamethat I had been carrying about what I did.
And then I was able to go tomy boss and say, we're good.
(31:23):
we worked it out.
so yes, that actually is what canhappen when I, let me say correctly, practice step eight and then nine.
You have thoughts on this paragraph?
Guilt and shame.
They are big red hot buttontopics and they go into my closet with all my skeletons.
(31:49):
That's what skeletons are.
They're guilt and shame about the past.
Having gone through step four witha sponsor, that was with a single person that I knew would accept me, regardless of what I told them, and often could tell me that I was not alone.
I was not.
(32:10):
I just somehow grew up always thinkingthat if I did something wrong, I was the only person that had ever done that wrong.
I was the only person that was that bad.
So to do it with my sponsor, who I couldtrust and know they weren't gonna walk away, they weren't gonna beat me up for what I told them, was incredibly freeing.
(32:34):
And I found that when I letthose skeletons out the closet, they went from 10 feet tall to 10 inches tall or even smaller.
So I think the challengewith step eight and nine.
And what really makes me wanna put thebrakes on the willingness issue, is I'm taking my guilt and shame out into the whole world and there's no guarantee.
(32:59):
Why wouldn't we be frightful?
Why wouldn't we be unwilling or worryabout doing amends when we're taking this out to people who are not in our program, who are not accepting and loving.
Those brakes come on real hard,real fast because I've been hiding that guilt and shame from everybody.
(33:22):
And to do it and risk rejection,risk somebody saying, yeah, you were a jerk to me, is, wow.
That's a very, you can tell I'm gettingemotional just thinking about it.
That's a very intense thing to do andyou have to have a lot of self-love to be able to have the perspective to say that once I acknowledge this behavior, that I'm no longer proud of and I'm no longer willing to hide from, I will be free.
(33:56):
It takes a lot of time and alot of work and a lot of thought work to get to that place.
I think.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That ended up being kind of intense.
Yeah.
it's an intense step.
It really is.
The program's kind of intense.
yeah.
(34:17):
Okay, we'll take, a little break totalk about some music and then we'll continue with our lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery is working in our daily lives.
Pat, tell us about thefirst song you chose.
the first song I chose is pretty intense.
You can listen to it on the websiteat recovery show slash 4 3 2.
(34:38):
it's by Eminem.
he has his own video that goes with it.
Cleaning out my closet, and it'sjust such a complicated song.
he is not a hundred percent all the wayto, I don't know what he's doing, but for me it's all about what it says to me.
It seems like in cleaning out hiscloset, he is talking about his mother.
He's apologizing for making hismother cry, but it's clear that his mother was also an addict to pills.
(35:02):
and it seems like it's this cleaningout his closet is similar to this process of working through the steps.
Doing an inventory and like step eight,also putting himself on the top of the list of people who he has harmed, trying to set healthier boundaries.
Even when someone else has harmedus, acknowledging the times we have harmed others, including the addicts in our lives.
(35:26):
there's just a lot to the song.
I really liked it.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
Couple weeks ago, I spent a weekendlocked in a church with only about 20 teenagers and some other adults also.
(35:54):
it was a lot of fun.
I actually get energy from them.
I get joy.
This was the first one since the pandemic.
So it had been a while.
Almost none of the youth who were therehad ever experienced one of these before.
This was not just, kids from my church,but from several other churches in Michigan and one in Indiana and one in Ohio, coming together for the weekend.
(36:21):
A few days later, I got an email froma friend who said his son had raised some concerns about what was going on, and he wanted to talk to me about them.
He said, I'd rather do this in person.
I don't wanna do this byemail or over the phone.
I was like, okay.
So we set up a time to, to meet ina coffee shop on a Saturday morning.
(36:42):
I have to admit that I was having sometrepidation about what he might say.
did something happenthat I wasn't aware of?
It turned out no, that wasn't the case.
there's my future catastrophizingin action already.
We had a really good conversation,but I think for me, the thing that I see as having really learned in recovery, was sitting there and really listening to what he had to say.
(37:13):
Not trying to justify,argue, defend, or explain.
Trying to understandwhat his concerns were.
and that is not something that Iwould have been able to do without all of the practice that I get sitting in meetings where there's no crosstalk or being a sponsor.
Then I used some of those sponsor tools.
(37:36):
I reflected back to himwhat I had heard him say.
We had some conversation about things weactually disagree on, and left with me saying, I can take, these concerns to the other people involved and we'll see if we need to make some changes in response.
We also had some more lightheartedconversation about the fact that his son is wedded to his phone.
(38:01):
And in fact, he said he feelsthat his son only experiences his life through his phone.
and we both agreed that wasprobably not a good thing.
And that, we needed to also payattention to that for ourselves.
But it was not anythinglike what I had feared.
It was good.
And again, just practicing theseprinciples that I've learned over the years, can make what could have been an unpleasant interaction, pleasant for me.
(38:31):
And I think for him too.
I guess the other thing thatoccurred recently, I wanna talk about the book, how Al-Anon works.
In one of my meetings, actually both ofmy meetings now are doing readings from that book and then sharing our reactions, responses, whatever to, to the reading.
In one meeting, we are reading thestories in the back of the book.
(38:56):
In that meeting, traditionally, wewould do a first step meeting when we get a new person coming in and we would go back to page 45 of how Al-Anon works and read through step one and then, share our experiences.
But all of the stories in the backof the book pretty much are in one way or another, newcomer friendly.
(39:17):
Nice.
So, we don't really have to change whatwe're doing when there's a newcomer.
The stories cover lots ofdifferent people's experiences of alcoholism and entry into the program and what they got from it.
I don't think there's been asingle one that I cannot find points of identification in.
Some more strongly than others.
(39:38):
My other meeting we're alsoreading how Al-Anon works.
But we started at the beginning, thefirst few chapters really take me back and help me to see how far I have come since I first came into Al-Anon and I was first reading those chapters, you know.
Uh.
(39:58):
It's been fun and we'll see how itgoes as we move through the chapters.
Sometimes we can't get through awhole chapter in one meeting because some of the chapters are pretty long.
We've got some people who've beenin program for 20 years or more.
We've got some people who are more recentor who have bought the book more recently.
And we're discovering someof the differences between the different editions of the book.
(40:20):
One person's like.
my book's got another paragraph at the endof this section that you guys didn't read.
And that led us into this conversation.
Well, this book has three whole newsections that your book doesn't.
I put the Kindle version up on thescreen so we could all read from the same version at that point.
The other thing I wanna say, and I'mgonna keep on saying this, about my life in recovery in the near future, which is that my wife and I are going to the AA International Convention in Vancouver at the beginning of July.
(40:50):
I just got an email from Al-Anon saying,Hey, do you wanna sign up to be a speaker, lead a panel, lead a workshop, something?
And I was like, yes.
So I, they had a form to fill out,and we'll see if what comes of that.
I might end up being up infront of the room or I might end up just being in the room.
We'll see.
I do wanna say to anybody who'slistening, if you're planning to be there, send me an email.
(41:15):
the feedback at the recovery show workswell to get to me and, let's figure out, how we can meet up while we're there.
And that's what I've got.
Okay.
I am just coming back into in-personmeetings, and enjoying them.
It's a little challenging becausesome of my shifts are 12 hour shifts.
(41:37):
Some of them are eight hour shifts.
that makes me gone in the evening.
My spouse is semi-retired.
I'm not retired yet.
I work full time.
so he really values his time with me.
Before Covid I stopped goingto an evening meeting, which was my initial home group.
And then I started goingto a morning meeting.
(41:59):
I have to admit, I got very spoiled.
And because of the whole work thing, Iwasn't going on weekend meetings either.
Well, that doesn't leave a lot.
It leaves an occasional weekday meeting.
'cause I have some weekdaysoff from time to time.
But I was going to those and Covidcame along and I gotta admit, I just stopped, relied on the podcast, a great deal for my contact.
(42:23):
An occasional Zoom meeting.
Relied on my sponsor.
and I just recognized recently, Ijust need to put more time into it.
So that's what I've been doing.
I've been making it tosome local meetings.
I've found a couple that I really enjoy.
and it's just been nice to be backin an in-person community again.
(42:45):
I never really clickedwith the online meetings.
They never really worked for me.
It's obvious if I have the opportunityto multitask or try to do something else instead I tend to go there.
So I'm really enjoying thisgetting back into real meetings.
And that segues also was somethingelse that happened, which was we were gonna do this podcast and I could not find my, how Al-Anon works.
(43:12):
So I've had sponsors and sponsees,so that's another point of contact through Covid, a sponsor and a sponsee and run into people from time to time.
Had given away my How Al-Anon Works book.
So I was looking around and inmy city, lots of the meetings are still online, not in person.
The one I could find wasthe all men's meeting.
(43:35):
So I got up there and went to theall men's meeting and I know Al-Anon proper says we're not supposed to be giving 'em exclusive names.
know, so I got there early,got in, bought my book.
The guy said, Nope, we're all men's.
And he said, we'd have to talk aboutit and we're gonna let you be in.
I'm like, oh, okay.
If that's not cool with you guys fine.
(43:56):
I go out to my car and my husband,who's out of town calls me and so we started having this pretty intense conversation about something else that happened where he is.
And one of the guys comes out from themeeting and says, oh, we talked about it.
You can join us.
So I got this wonderful meeting.
It was fascinating to go in andsee, what is an all mens meeting?
(44:18):
they were lovely.
It was Al-Anon.
It was great.
It was about step four.
It was interesting to seehow that conversation went.
But you know, a step four conversationcan go just about anywhere.
That was my meeting for the week.
I really enjoyed that.
Another related note is that my, sponsorof, well, she's the only sponsor I've ever had, is suffering from Alzheimer's.
(44:46):
Oh.
And somebody asked me.
At my workplace, I get to interactwith lots of different people.
And one person had a whole purse fullof Al-Anon literature, so I felt pretty much at liberty to ask her about it.
So I did.
And she asked me aboutwhether I had a sponsor.
(45:08):
I'm not sure why.
Just out of the, you know, andI said, I actually don't, I don't have a sponsor anymore.
And I think I have to grieve that.
Yeah.
My sponsor isn't able to, I govisit her, but I, she can't, she doesn't do readings anymore.
(45:28):
I often thought that as she aged,it would be a comfort that I could read Alanon literature to her.
And it's not something anymore.
She enjoys my visits, which is nice.
but I realized I don't have a sponsor.
And that's an interesting place to be.
So when I was at this men's groupand they said, do you have a sponsor?
I wrote No
(45:49):
Rate.
that's sad.
It
it is so I'm dealing with the grieving.
and then on an unrelated note,we've been talking about retirement.
It's a few years away from me,but I've been wondering what the heck am I gonna do in retirement?
I know I need to do for me, I needto do some kind of volunteer work.
(46:09):
And I was at work and heard a presentationabout an incredibly valuable project that the person doing it only has the bandwidth to do it in a very small portion of the institution.
And I thought, oh, that fits.
I cannot tell you, Spencer, how comfortingit was to feel that I had a project that I could do in retirement that uses all of my skills and would help other people because the person running this program is just squeezing it in, here and there.
(46:47):
Has no designated time,no administrative support.
And I thought, I have all the skillsfor this and could expand it to go across the whole institution and not just be limited to one area.
The comfort that came withthat was just amazing.
I haven't told the person yet, 'causeI'm still four years from retirement.
(47:09):
but you know how that is, your hairstarts turning gray and how many wrinkles you have on your face.
People start asking youhow long before you retire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
anyway, that's, that is Ithink my week in recovery.
All right, thank you.
Looking forward, we are movingforward on, our series of episodes on the 12 steps.
(47:31):
We still have steps ninethrough 12 to cover.
We welcome your thoughts, yourinput, join our conversation here.
Leave us a voicemail or send us an emailwith your feedback, your questions, your experience, strength, and hope about, step eight or steps nine, et cetera.
Some things to think about.
(47:52):
If you're thinking about step nine.
How do you separate stepeight from step nine?
We talked about that a little bitand we also were, in places I think not quite able to enforce that separation in our conversation.
how have you made direct amends?
If you have.
Did you ever experience someonewho wasn't interested or received them in a difficult way for you?
(48:15):
Have you ever received amends?
What did that mean for you?
How did you feel about it?
What worked or did not work foryou in the way it was given to you?
Those are all things to think about.
I'm gonna have to think about those too.
Pat, how can people send us feedback?
How can people contributeto our conversation?
You can send a voice memo or emailto feedback at the recovery show, or if you prefer, you can call and leave us a voicemail at 7 3 4 7 0 7 8 7 9 5 to repeat 7 3 4 7 0 7.
(48:51):
8, 7, 9, 5. You can also use thevoicemail button on the website to join the conversation from your computer.
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, andhope, or your questions about today's topic of step eight or any of our upcoming topics, including steps nine through 12.
(49:12):
And if you'd have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, please let us know.
I think there was a really excellentepisode recently that was from someone calling in saying they were curious about something.
If you would like advance noticefor some of our topics that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for mailing list by sending in an email to feedback at the recovery show.
(49:34):
Put email in the subject lineto make it easier to spot.
Spencer, where can our listeners findout more about the recovery show?
that would be our website, the RecoveryShow, where we have all the information about the show, mostly notes for each episode, which would include links to the
books that we mentioned, which I guessis just How Al-Anon Works, this week, videos for the music that Pat chose.
(49:57):
And also on the website there's somelinks to other recovery, podcasts and websites, not in any sense of the word, complete or even exhaustive.
we'll take a short breakbefore diving into the mailbag.
And the second musical selection,again, available on the website is Apology Song by the Decembrists.
(50:19):
I just can't seem to resistputting in a song that makes me laugh whenever I co-host.
This is about the songwriter'sfriend's bike, that he's left to look after the bike, and he leaves it unlocked and it gets stolen.
I think there's just so many otheractions where we make poor choices or it's a poorly thought out action, that results in harm to another.
(50:41):
but it is a funny songand it's very catchy.
it is.
I'm really sorry, Steven.
But your bicycle's been stolen.
I was watching it for you tilyou came back in the fall.
I guess.
I didn't do such a good job after all.
I was feeling really sorry, Steven,and I spent all morning grieving.
That's the first verse.
(51:01):
and it just goes on.
I meant her no harm when Ileft her unlocked outside the Orange Street Food Farm.
I was just running in.
Didn't think I'd be that long.
Justify, arguing and explain there, right?
Defend.
Yeah.
It's a great song.
I know I've used it before.
I don't remember what episode.
Probably one about either stepeight, step nine or step 10, one of those, but always bears repeating.
(51:34):
And now it's time to hear from you.
Joanne writes an alapal,I love that, Alapal.
An alapal sent me the link for yoursite and I just listened to your podcast number 411, which was titled Growth and Challenges in Al-Anon Service with Eric as my guest.
(51:55):
As of January this year, I'mthe new area Alateen coordinator and what a learning curve.
This Saturday will be 33 yearsin the program and the first time in an area position.
Lots of challenges in services in myarea, and I'm passionate about Alateen and Al-Anon, as well as having four adult kids who have all struggled in their own way, and 12 grandkids ranging from one to 25.
(52:19):
All again, having had their struggles.
And there has been such a struggle inbetween a new career, a new position in the program, family challenges, and a new attitude about where I fit in everything.
I'm feeling overwhelmedand perhaps a bit alone.
Doreen E suggested that perhaps EricMay be a person to connect with regards to Alateen and trying to get it active in the Maritimes, and I may do so.
(52:43):
I have a lot of reading to do.
I particularly like what you sharedabout the program and having a voice.
After a short time in the program,I wasn't feeling good about it.
Dominance, bullying, and afew things you mentioned.
I ended up with the privilege of beinga newcomer in a focus group with many longtime members, and I found a voice when I see the traditions not being adhered to.
(53:06):
Sometimes with my knees shakingand my voice cracking, I do it.
For Al-Anon.
There are some challenges happeningnow in my group, and I really got so much from listening to your podcast.
I plan to come back again.
Thank you for sharing your experience,strength, time, and the music.
Take care.
Joanne.
Thanks for writing, Joanne.
I forwarded your email to Eric and I'mhopeful that he will be able to, provide some experience, strength and hope and support for you in your new position.
(53:36):
I know he had a lot of things to sayabout what he had done in his public outreach position about starting or enhancing Alateen in his area.
So I think he's got some realexperience there for you.
Thank you for taking onthat Alateen position.
I know Alateen is struggling in my area.
There are only a few districtsthat even have Alateen meetings.
(54:02):
Pete writes,
hello Spencer.
There's been a lot of upheaval anduncertainty in this country in the last decade, and it seems to have intensified in the last few months.
I've found it to be incredibly upsettingand I've had a hard time focusing and turning it over to my higher power.
The crux is that much of itis political and we don't talk about politics in program.
I was wondering how folks workedthrough and talked about this within the confines of the traditions.
(54:27):
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Pete.
that's a really good question, Pete.
I've heard people say things like,there's a lot of conflict happening in our country and our politics right now, and I'm having trouble dealing with it emotionally, spiritually.
There've been so many changes happeningrecently, and I just have a hard time dealing with that rapid pace of change.
(54:52):
Those are things that to my mind, don'tpoint at one politic or another, but at the impact of what is happening on myself.
I recently listened to an episodeof the podcast Fragmented to Whole, where the host, Barb, talked about how she just doesn't pay any attention to the news, and that is what she needs for her own peace and serenity.
(55:20):
Obviously, that doesn'twork for all of us.
Some of us, like me, feel likewe have to maintain at least some minimal connection to what's going on.
But I have set some boundaries onhow much and how I consume news.
Even when I might be listening to thingsthat I agree with, it can still cause some emotional turmoil in me, some stress, and I just don't need that.
(55:51):
I don't need that stress.
So finding the right balancefor yourself can be hard.
It takes probably some experimentation.
But I think things that you can, to mymind, bring up within the constraints of the traditions is, what's happening in the world, in our country, right now is having a deep impact on me.
(56:15):
And I'm having trouble maintainingmy serenity, maintaining my peace.
Maintaining my stability,mental and spiritual stability.
Those are things that I thinkare legitimate program topics.
If you want to get into specifics, Iwould say yeah, don't do it in a meeting.
Find one or more, as Joanne calledthem, alapals, friends in program and have that conversation outside the confines of the meeting.
(56:44):
I haven't really had the courage tohave conversation with somebody who just fundamentally disagrees with me.
But, I know people who do and whofind it enlightening and helpful.
And not infrequently, find commonagreement on values and principles, even when there is significant disagreement on details and outcomes.
(57:06):
There's just some thoughtsthere and you can hear I'm sort of struggling with it myself.
So thanks for writing, Pete.
Patrick wrote to say he is also planningto attend the AA International Convention in Vancouver this July 3rd to fifth.
He is also booked on the same Alaskancruise that my wife and I are booked for.
There's a group of in recoverypeople who will be dining and so on together on the cruise.
(57:31):
So that should have some great timefor recovery conversations, both at the convention and on the cruise.
And he has a topic idea, asomewhat provocative one.
Is Al-Anon really for men.
I am not sure what he thinks there.
I can have some ideas.
He says, let's talk about it whilewe're cruising informally, you know.
(57:54):
I'm gonna bring along my recorder.
So we might actually have aconversation for the podcast.
Who knows?
But what do you think about this question?
I got a review on Apple Podcaststitled, Eternally Grateful for this Pod.
From ralorlob is the screen name.
I'm so grateful to Spencer and all hisguests for the time spent on this podcast.
(58:16):
It has kept me company andprovided me with comfort at some of the lowest points in my life.
The work you do really matters.
Thank you, from the UK.
Well, thank you for that reviewand if you wanna leave a review on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you listen to the podcast on, please do.
Podcast reviews and ratings providesome evidence for people who are considering listening to the podcast as to the value that you get from it.
(58:45):
So thanks again.
And that's it for this week.
Pat, I want to thank you for joiningme today for a conversation about step eight, a little bit of a deep dive, I think into step eight.
I wanna thank you, Spencer, becauseit's always a delight working with you.
I always go places my brainwould not go otherwise, like any other good Al-Anon conversation.
(59:09):
And, the service you have providedfor our community is immeasurable.
I have to say for anyone out therelistening, think about co-hosting with Spencer, he makes it super easy.
He's able to edit out any bloops you have,and it's really an enjoyable experience.
You don't have to stress about it.
It's not live.
(59:31):
It is not live.
Yes, and I do edit it.
Our last song selection is in between byLinkin Park, which you can also listen to at the recovery show slash 4 3 2.
gosh, this is a beautiful song.
It's so pretty.
I got the lyrics.
Let me apologize to begin with.
(59:53):
Let me apologize for what I'm aboutto say, but trying to be genuine was harder than it seemed, and somehow I got caught up in, in between.
Let me apologize to begin with.
Let me apologize forwhat I'm about to say.
But trying to be someone elsewas harder than it seemed, and somehow I got caught up in between, between my pride and my promise.
(01:00:18):
Between my lies and how the truthgets in the way, and things I wanna say to you get lost before they come.
The only thing that'sworse than one is none.
Oh, I just love that song.
I cry easily, by the way.
, I think it speaks to the fact thatthese are not easy steps that we take.
(01:00:40):
they take a lot of time and a lotof introspection, and it's painful to admit when you've been wrong.
It's really painful to admit thatwe're not the people we've wanted to be or we thought we were.
And then taking that to another person.
Wow, what a tough spot.
So I just love this song.
(01:01:06):
Thank you for listening andplease keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you'refacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love and peacegrowing you one day at a time.
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