Secular Healing: Working Step Three – 419

Approaching the Twelve Steps from a secular viewpoint can present challenges, particularly with Step Three, which traditionally involves turning one's will and life over to the care of God. Spencer and Marilyn explore how we have navigated these waters while remaining respectful to their own beliefs as atheists or agnostics. Founding a Secular Al Anon...

The post Secular Healing: Working Step Three – 419 appeared first on The Recovery Show.

Episode Transcript

Marilyn (00:01):
I had not read the word care.
I had read the word as control.
And I had this flash of, self awarenessthat for me to let someone care about me would mean they would be in control of me.

Spencer (00:19):
Welcome to episode 419 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Samantha,Jim, Robert, Delette, Branda, and Debra.
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you, Samantha, Jim, Robert, Delette,Branda, and Debra for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.

(00:40):
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

Marilyn (00:59):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show, we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharings that speaks to your life.

Spencer (01:23):
My name is Spencer, I am your host today, and joining me today is Marilyn.
Welcome to The Recovery Show, Marilyn.

Marilyn (01:30):
Thank you, Spencer.

Spencer (01:32):
We like to open with a reading, and you brought one from A Little Time for Myself, which is our new daily reader.

Marilyn (01:39):
This is March 6.
I'm fairly new at rock climbing.
So before each climb, I stand back from therock, look at the route, and plan each move.
One day my friends chose avertical climb surrounded by trees.
I could see my first move, but not my second.
In order to make it to the top, I had to trustthat once I started, I'd know what to do.

(02:06):
I found a good handhold and foothold and pulled myself up.
From my new vantage point, I foundanother handhold and foothold.
Each move revealed the next.
Before I knew it, I was at the top, enjoying the view.
Despite my inability to plan, I had found a route.

(02:26):
Today's reminder, one day at a time, helps mefocus on what's directly in front of me rather than planning a future I cannot predict or control.
With the help of a higher power and theAl Anon program, I can reach for the next handhold, even if I can't see the climb ahead.

(02:48):
In time, we can make progress, but wecan only make it one day at a time, from discovering choices, recovery in relationships.
What helps me enjoy life moment to moment today?

Spencer (03:04):
I like that the new reader has the questions at the end of each reading, okay, how do I think about what I just read?
before we get into our discussion, you, as I understandit helped to found a secular Al Anon meeting.
Tell us about that.

Marilyn (03:23):
Okay.
yes, I am amazed.
The group is called Any Faith or None.
And actually yesterday was the inauguralmeeting of the third meeting of the group.
The group started out on Fridays.

(03:43):
At noon central time as a way for those of usthat started the meeting in person in 2019 could find each other during the pandemic in 2020.
we eventually got familiar enough with the Zoom thatwe used that and our information went viral and we had members joining from all over the country and the world.

(04:14):
there's been enough interest that there is now aSunday meeting that started this last February.
And yesterday, like I said, was thefirst Monday meeting of the group.

Spencer (04:27):
Are you expanding it because too many people, because people need a different time?
I can understand all of those reasons.

Marilyn (04:38):
Because people requested more meetings
and we'd have, we had group consciences, discussed it.
it was helpful.
I've had.
I've spent a long time in Al Anon with service, and Itry very hard to help people understand that we make decisions as a group, and how group conscience works, and so that there are enough individuals willing to serve to keep a Zoom meeting going, which, if you have experience with Zoom, it takes more people to run a Zoom meeting.

(05:17):
for security and, those kinds of things.
It has been a great interest for people who havewanted to be able to come to more meetings per week.
They didn't want to just wait until thefollowing Friday to have another meeting.
The feedback we constantly get, is it sucha relief to find a meeting that doesn't.

(05:44):
emphasize the language that people struggle with.
And there is a lot of religious abuse.
People have experienced a lot of religiousabuse and there's a lot of trigger words.
When we originally started this as an in person meeting,we took about three months to do all our planning.
And one of the things we did waswe wrote a statement of purpose.

(06:09):
I'd like to read that for you.
It helps explain how the meeting works.

Spencer (06:14):
Excellent.

Marilyn (06:15):
Any, faith or none group statement of purpose.
As our group name describes, we welcome thoseof any religious or spiritual belief or none.
We follow the Al Anon traditions.
We have but one purpose.
To help anyone affected by another'sdisease of alcoholism or addiction.

(06:36):
Our group recognizes that the Twelve Steps were written inthe context of the times in which AA was founded, the 1930s.
We respect that history.
We recognize that certain words or phrasesfrom the original literature may be dated and may refer to a specific faith tradition.
Our members may individually rephrase thelanguage to reflect their own understanding.

(07:01):
We do not use group prayer in themeetings of any faith or none.
We are a topic and literature meeting usingAl Anon principles and conference approved literature as our primary guides and readings.
Our group conscience allows members to makea brief reference to non conference approved literature when sharing their personal experience.

Spencer (07:23):
I can see that some thought went into that.
A

Marilyn (07:26):
Yes, lotta thought.

Spencer (07:29):
A couple of observations that, that I had while you were talking.
One is I went to the Al-anon.Org electronic meeting finder.
When I put in any faith or none, I seeyour Friday, Sunday, and Monday all at 1 p.
m.
Eastern, I guess at noon your time.
I also see Any Faith or None Parents, AFG, on Wednesday.

(07:50):
Is that also related or connected?

Marilyn (07:53):
Yes, that group formed out of the original Friday meeting, people who wanted to emphasize the relationship as a parent, we had to turn that into a separate group in order for it to get listed on the WSO website as a parents meeting.

(08:13):
yeah,
So there was a little administrative work there,but it is just taken on the life of its own.
That group runs its own meeting.

Spencer (08:22):
just as a note for our listener, if you haven't done this before.
If you go to al anon.
org, that's A L dash A N O N dot O R G, then at the topunder meetings, you can click on electronic meetings.
And there's a little search box.
I typed in any faith or none and those fourmeetings popped right up, like almost instantly.

(08:46):
So that's a very convenient way to, to find them.
It looks like the parents meeting.
The password is not published.
the other ones, they're all thesame meeting ID and password.
I gather anybody who is interested is,welcome to come to the meeting, right?

Marilyn (09:06):
right.
we open the meeting with the Serenity Statement,and it starts with the words, Today I Seek, and then it continues, Today I Seek the Serenity to Accept the Things I Cannot Change, Courage to Change the Things I Can, and the Wisdom to Know the Difference.

Spencer (09:28):
Nicely done.
I had A friend in program I haven't seen in a while whoused the word please instead of God in the Serenity prayer.
And you're not calling it a prayer either

Marilyn (09:42):
When I'm in a group or I'm in a, open meeting or a speaker meeting and it opens, of course, with the Serenity Prayer, I have a couple of words I use.
I either use life, grant me the serenity, or I say good,grant me the serenity, because it's just my personal outlook in life, and then I don't trip on the word God.

Spencer (10:08):
Yes.
You also mentioned needing more people to run a Zoommeeting, and I will just note that in the latest edition of the service manual when they're talking about group officers and leaders, they have added one called Tech Coordinator.
Description opens and closes the electronicmeeting room, clearing meeting chats to ensure confidentiality, supports newcomers and members to overcome technical challenges during the meeting.

(10:37):
It's good to see Al Anon is moving into the 21st century.

Marilyn (10:40):
Yeah.
yeah, and we're not very techie, let me tell you.
We have learned the hard way, the
Al Anon trial and error
. Spencer: We're coming together today to talk in particular about step three, which says.
Step three, made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.

Spencer (11:06):
Right.
I notice in your, charter for the meeting.
It talks about the language of the time and the languageof the context in which AA program was created.
Step three uses the word God, and also it has the wordHim capitalized, so there's an implication there, not only that God is male, but also a special person . How have you understood this or interpreted this for yourself?

Marilyn (11:34):
It's been a process, a long process.
I came into Al Anon , my first meeting wasin May of 1990 and, I was a bit of a mess.
I was stuck between my parents.
My mother, was a binge drinkerand my father was a control freak.

(11:55):
which I say lovingly, but he was, and I believethat he also had his own addiction to food.
I had moved on to the other side of the state.
I had a family, but I could notget disentangled from my parents.
My mind was just obsessed with them all the time.

(12:16):
I had an acquaintance whose life had seemed different.
Something was going on and I called her and I said,I don't know what you're doing, but I need help.
Can I come over?
Well, she had found Al Anon and recovered
She took me to my first Al Anon meeting.
There wasn't a lot of emphasis onreading the steps all the time.

(12:39):
They were posted in the room, but I was soimpressed with how honest people were about sharing what was going on in their lives.
I was amazed.
I was amazed that they understood thefeelings of how it was to live with secrets.

(13:00):
basically.
As I moved slowly through the steps, in 1990, therewasn't no real word for adult children, Al Anon wide.
The members of my group were lovely people, but theyresisted discussing too much of the, family of origin.

(13:22):
And I came to feel that it was due to theirown guilt as being parents of children who suffered from having the effects of alcoholism.
And I was a little bit, lost.
There wasn't literature.
We only had, ODAT, the daily reader, andit was focused on the spousal relationship.

(13:47):
I lived in a very small town at the time.
I floundered a little bit, but, came backand decided to just get what I could.
I wasn't demanding or anything, but I coaxed some peopleto talk to me about what it was like to grow up that way.
And being in a very small town whereeveryone knew your dad was the town drunk.

(14:09):
I lived behind.
the walls that protected people fromknowing the real situation I was in.
I grew up in suburbia and we don't knowenough, a lot about each other and that kind of thing, but I carried it with me all the time.
I was, um, overachiever, people pleaser, all those things.

(14:34):
But, continuing on in my recovery, I didn't get too farthe first ten years because we were really the blind leading the blind, dealing with adult children issues.
I decided to get into service.
I lived about a four to five hour drive from wherethe assembly was held, and there weren't very many people in my situation that could really afford to take an extra day off work to attend assembly.

(15:03):
I had already done some statewide service inanother group that I was in and I could afford it.
And I decided I wanted to know more aboutwhat this broader Al Anon world was about.

Spencer (15:15):
When was this?

Marilyn (15:17):
So this would have been around the early 2000s.

Spencer (15:22):
You mentioned you didn't have literature, I came in in early 2000s, and it felt like there was a lot of literature available.
The book that I picked up first was How Al AnonWorks, and I see that was first published in 1995.
So that book was not around.
And the book From Survival to Recovery, which is subtitledGrowing Up in an Alcoholic Home, was published in 1994,

Marilyn (15:52):
Yes.

Spencer (15:53):
and then significantly revised, I think, in 2007,

Marilyn (15:58):
Yes.

Spencer (15:58):
which is the one that I have.

Marilyn (16:00):
for one thing, you have to know that there's new literature.
And I lived in a small town, a small ruraltown that did not send anyone to assembly.
Basically it was ODAT and the 12 by 12, they called it.
When I went to assembly, I started finding these newbooks, and I was really pleased and I bought some copies and brought them back and the members were very pleased.

(16:29):
The big advantage for me, Spencer, about going toassembly, was I started hearing people share their stories.
They would do it on the Fridayevening or then noon time on Saturday.
It just expanded Al Anon for me because itwasn't just the spousal relationship anymore.

(16:51):
I had, a past delegate offered to be my service sponsor.
And she happened to live near the area I hadgrown up in on the Eastern side of Kansas.
So I jumped on that.
She sat with me at assemblies and answered my questions.
And within a short time I askedher to be my personal sponsor.

(17:15):
She has given me a lot of insightinto the history of Al Anon.
And at least her experience of the resistanceto encouraging adult children meetings.
There was a realization that adult children ofalcoholics was going to happen no matter what, and Al Anon had a lot of members that needed it.

(17:39):
I think once they recognized that, thenthere was the call for, literature.
when that book came out, from Survival toRecovery, I bought it, but I didn't read it,
and I'll tell you why, because everytime I opened it, I started sobbing
and I couldn't read it.

(18:01):
And it took me a long time in Al Anon, the 2000s,to get enough contact and experience with adult children that I felt the connection with others.
And then I was fine.
And I think when the new version of the book cameout, I definitely was able to read it without crying.

(18:24):
Around 2003, in that timeline, there was amember of a group in a neighboring town that started, a kind of hybrid, A COA Al-Anon meeting.
Back in those days, people and groups were decidingif they were going to register with Al Anon or register with Adult Children of Alcoholics.

(18:49):
So I was in a study group that really lookedhard at both of them and read the literature that was available from ACOA at the time.
And then most of us had come from Al Anon.
as a group, we voted to, to register with AlAnon and had the emphasis of adult children.

(19:12):
That's a whole nother topic or issue, butI was so grateful that we did do that.
It's kind of like once we openedthe floodgates, they came, people
came.

Spencer (19:22):
I have noticed, that for people who are not familiar with both programs, that there is often a lot of confusion between the Al Anon adult children focus.
Just like we have Al Anon meetings that arefocused on parents, Al Anon meetings that are focused on adult children, and the, program, adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families, which is variously called ACA or ACOA, I mean, I didn't understand the difference for a long time.

(20:00):
I had friends in Al Anon who were like, youknow, I started going to the ACOA meeting and it really is like a lot better for me.
and I was like, what's wrong with Al Anon?
As I've listened to people who are in ACA, talkabout why they're in ACA and with the availability of things like podcasts now, I can hear those different experiences and why that program might be more attractive or more helpful to some people.

(20:35):
I think one of the distinctions that I'veheard in particular is the fourth step.
and the way that ACA focuses the step on what happenedto you rather than on what you did, can be very helpful for people who are still recovering from childhood trauma.

Marilyn (20:52):
Absolutely, and there wasn't a lot of, counseling developed at that time, and so it felt, for me, the ACOA material.
They had a book called the Red Book.

Spencer (21:06):
Yeah.

Marilyn (21:07):
They stated the problem very well, but the solution, I was uncomfortable with the solution.
I was uncomfortable taking a newcomer or anotherperson through the steps with that solution.
I was much more comfortable with the Al Anon solution.

(21:28):
And getting back to the word God.
Yeah.

Spencer (21:32):
Let's get back to the word God.
That's why we're here, right?

Marilyn (21:34):
Yes, I attended the church I'd grown up in, into the 2000s.
My husband didn't attend.
He'd not grown up in that church, hewas supportive of what I wanted to do.
my children attended until they were old enough todecide for themselves they didn't want to go anymore.
I kept attending, and it dawned on me, and I alreadyhad a lot of Al Anon, but it dawned on me that coming home with a splitting headache from church and having to sit for two hours, really get the headache to go away.

(22:14):
It just helped me realize how much tension I broughthome with me from having conflict in my heart.
I had nothing against individuals or whatever,but I felt that represented an image, a external image that I was supposed to live up to that I was trying to break down in Al Anon.

(22:38):
That I didn't have to live according to someoneelse's image, I didn't have to uphold anybody else's reputation, or, I could let other people, as my loved ones, be responsible for themselves.
So eventually, and especially finding a little morebroad language for it, I've used the gift of discernment.

(23:04):
As an acronym for God, at least today.
Yeah.

Spencer (23:09):
I have used Gift of Desperation.

Marilyn (23:12):
yes.
Yeah.
And I had the gift of desperation.

Spencer (23:16):
Yeah, so did I, yeah.
Yeah,

Marilyn (23:19):
Cause I did.
Step zero.
I don't know if you've talked about step zero.
After 25 plus years, I realized that I did do a step zero.
I was falling apart.
I was crying.
I was telling my husband, I don't know how I'm goingto live, but I'm not going to live like this anymore.

(23:41):
Of course, it scared the heck out of him, you know?

Spencer (23:44):
right.
What does that mean?

Marilyn (23:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wait a minute.
But it helped me.
I heard myself say to myself, I amnot going to live like this anymore.
And that's where this reading really informs myjourney in Al Anon that I learned that I could take a step, without knowing what the next step would be.

(24:14):
I didn't have to have it all planned out.
I developed my own little languagein Al-Anon as I went along.
I really like the slogan, Keep It Simple.
when I would feel myself getting emotionally upsetI would ask myself, how can we keep this simple?

(24:35):
And I would say, okay, am I being motivatedby fear or being motivated by love?
And I learned a lot about unconditional love in Al Anon.
I knew my parents loved me.
But I did not realize the stringsthat were attached to that love.
I saw them offer unconditional love in crisissituations, but in general, I always felt like there were, expectations behind a lot of expressions of love.

(25:10):
And I was very busy trying to figureout what those expectations were.
Cause growing up in, with, dysfunction for me, I always feltlike I had to know the answer before I knew the question.
So I just worked really hard at trying to figure outany possible question that was going to come my way.

(25:31):
I was obsessing.
I didn't know at the time I was obsessing,but I so needed to be prepared.
I was a perfectionist.
But, Al Anon really helped melearn about unconditional love.
And I do have a little reading.
from page 83 in How Al Anon Works,describing unconditional love.

(25:56):
It's in chapter 11 under Detachment, Love, and Forgiveness.
The last paragraph on the section of personal boundaries,it says, Genuine healthy love isn't self destructive.
It doesn't diminish us or strip us of our identities.
Nor does it in any way diminish those we love.

(26:19):
Love is nourishing.
It allows each of us to be more fully ourselves.
The enmeshment that characterizes analcoholic relationship does just the opposite.
Finding a source within myself became unconditional love.

Spencer (26:38):
I love that reading.
I want to back up a moment here and ask about step zero.
if you could just briefly, what isyour understanding of step zero?

Marilyn (26:49):
I don't know any official description of it, but I looked it up a little bit because I was going back through the steps in our group and in studying step one I realized that I didn't understand, unmanageability, sanity, surrender and the things that I did eventually understand and I did use step one.

(27:17):
But I had always thought that this moment of clarity that Ihad with my husband when I was saying strongly, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm not going to do this anymore.
I used to call it my step one.
I really realized it was something it wasn't step one.

(27:39):
And then I started hearing a few references,probably on podcasts to step zero.
From my interpretation, it'swhat got me in the door of Al Anon.
I hadn't done a first step before I came into Al Anon.
I didn't know what it was, but I did step zero.

(28:00):
I was desperate.
It was the gift of desperation.
And, I was willing to take some guidance fromsomeone else who I felt seemed different and it was the beginning of an incredible journey.

Spencer (28:20):
I'm thinking about my experience and I feel like there was a moment when I heard that I did not cause, could not cure, and could not control the alcoholism.
I really felt that.
And that for me, is the essence of step one.
That I am powerless over her drinking.
But.

(28:40):
Other things that happened thatsame day gave me that desperation.
Like when she said to me as we're sitting outsidethe counselor's office at the treatment center, she said, I don't know if I can live sober.
that struck me to the heart.
Like, what do you mean you don't know if you can live sober?
What does that even mean for us?

(29:00):
I think I had experiences of thosetwo things mixed up together.

Marilyn (29:06):
Yeah.
it's dynamic.
That was the thing I have reallyaccepted about the steps in the program.
It is dynamic.

Spencer (29:14):
Yeah.
I had to keep going back to step one.
I know that.

Marilyn (29:17):
Yeah.
Oh Yeah.
Oh Yeah.
I did too.
I did too.
I just had no idea how, little, I really didn'tunderstand the illusion of control for a really long time.
And so I just kept trying to tweak it.
And then, you know, we all learn.

(29:37):
I just appreciate Al Anon being able tolive life with trial and error and learn.
one other experience with step three, I willgo into the question about understanding the decision that you're asked to make this step.

(29:57):
I had a sponsor and we had, I had talked myway through step one, two, and three with her.
I was doing a lot of writing and journaling and we weretalking about step four we used a lot of approaches.
The Blueprint for Progress I feltwasn't enough to pin me down.

(30:23):
I felt like I could weasel my way out of most ofthe questions cause I was such a people pleaser.

Spencer (30:29):
Okay.
Okay.
wait,

Marilyn (30:31):
huh.

Spencer (30:32):
this book that has 90 something pages.
And I don't know how many questions
was not enough to pin you down.
oh, you had the smaller one.

Marilyn (30:41):
A little one.
I didn't have that one.
you can almost yes or no it.
I had a sponsee, one of my first sponsees, yes or no it.
The whole book.
And I kept saying, I think you needto describe a little bit more in depth.

Spencer (30:54):
Okay.
You felt that the blueprint forprogress didn't pin you down enough.
So what did you do?

Marilyn (31:00):
We were looking at other options, but I could feel, actually, I, I knew I was experiencing avoidance.
I was saying the steps over in my mind one day.
Ironically, I was walking out into my garage.
Physically walking down a couple of steps.

Spencer (31:20):
Okay.

Marilyn (31:21):
And I thought, Oh, if you're having trouble with a step, maybe you need to go back to the step before.
Maybe you didn't really do step three.
And it hit me.
I said the step over again to myself, madea decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

(31:46):
I had not read the word care.
I had read the word as control.
And I had this flash of, self awarenessthat for me to let someone care about me would mean they would be in control of me.
That was a big leap in being able to apply what I had seenin meetings, the honesty of members, the comfort, the tears.

(32:21):
The, compassion suddenly Iunderstood what the word care meant.
So for me today, the most important wordsin step three are care and understanding.

Spencer (32:37):
Can I connect care back to unconditional love?

Marilyn (32:43):
Yeah.

Spencer (32:44):
It sounds to me like those two together in, in your life, really helped you, enabled you to, enabled in a good way to re understand step three.

Marilyn (33:01):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
And that's why it still continues to be dynamic.
for me, using the word God as we understood him.
For a long time, I used, Group of Dear Ones becausein AA, they talked about group of drunks, right?
And I thought, no, it is the power of the program.

(33:22):
It is the people that come to the programthat I look forward to seeing every week.
or whenever.
I've sat in many situations where I just sat alone andread literature, hoping someone else would show up.

Spencer (33:37):
Al-Anon in a small town, huh?

Marilyn (33:39):
Yeah.
Basically.
I struggled with, as we understood HIM, and lately I'vebeen replacing that as an acronym of Hope In Myself.
You know, I, a lot of peoplethat come from religious trauma.
that language is very, authoritative.

(34:01):
And it was for me too in my house.
And one of the things I finally felt braveenough after a number of years in Al Anon to even admit to myself was that I may not know what God or higher power is, but I know what it's not.
And it's not my father.

(34:22):
I love my father, but he's not God or a higher power.

Spencer (34:27):
Yes.

Marilyn (34:28):
I don't use the word my higher power very often it might slip just 'cause I'm reading, but one of my, oh, growing up, skills or conditioning, it's what I call it rather than character defect.
But one of the conditioning, somethingwe used or that happened a lot was.

(34:49):
Competitiveness.
there's healthy, enjoyable competitiveness, but in my mindI can overdo it and when someone is telling me my higher power is this I will go to, my higher power is whatever.
There can be a tension there.

(35:11):
And it's hard to admit that, butI brought up with the siblings.
I love dearly, but we were competitiveand we were competing for attention.
it wasn't nearly the trauma other people experienced,but we were still competing for love and attention.
I know what can trip me up and so I use, I'm goingto say my, it's my understanding of a higher power and as a mouthful, and I know people have shortened it to my higher power, but I just wanted to say that.

Spencer (35:46):
Yeah.

Marilyn (35:47):
Yeah, I will write in my literature, cross out my and put a, because that's the other thing.
It's dynamic and my understandingof a higher power fluctuates.
one exercise that, a group of us did in one of theSecular Al Anon meetings was we took the letters HP and we all wrote different phrases that started with HP.

(36:16):
I just have a few, a higher perspective,honest program, healing process.
Humble peacefulness, hopeful presence.
My most used phrase is healing process.
It fits into the most of the literature for me to describemy, relationship and step three is a healing process.

(36:41):
Just like anybody else, I've cut my finger.
I go wash my finger, I put some ointment onit, I put a Band Aid on it, and then I wait.

Spencer (36:49):
it heals.

Marilyn (36:51):
And it heals!
I can't, I'm not gonna tell it how to heal, I'm,I have nothing to say about what those cells do.

Spencer (36:59):
But you can support its healing by washing it, putting an ointment, putting a bandage on.
Yes.
Yes.

Marilyn (37:06):
Yes.
Yes.
And it also slows me down so that I havethe Al Anon pause and wait for the healing.
Yeah.
And I appreciate that I can do that now.

Spencer (37:21):
Thank you.
Thank you for all that you've shared.
I think I'd like to close by coming back to summarizingyour current understanding and acceptance of Step 3,

Marilyn (37:39):
Yeah.
Let me think here.
in the case of my original situation that brought me toAl Anon, in order to experience the healing that I got from step four, five, and six, and seven, I expanded in my mind that I could make a decision to change.

(38:00):
And that is, that's my, underlying concept of step three.
I made a decision to change that I could trust thecare and understanding that I found in Al Anon.
I don't have a problem that otherpeople read it, whatever they want.
But the language of God and him just doesn'tbegin to describe how I feel about making that decision and being able to change.

(38:31):
Even if I was afraid.
I was very scared.
I realized that fear was my higher power.
Like I said, I knew what it was not and once Irealized I had made fear my higher power, then I started to feel the fear and let the fear dissipate.

(38:54):
and that it dissipated because I was surrounded by love.
I don't want to get too mushy about it, butI really accepted the love that I was feeling from everyone that I ran into an Al Anon.
And guaranteed, not everybody liked me, but they loved me.

(39:15):
And it went the other way, too.
I didn't have to like everyone, but I loved them.
And I listened to them.
They listened to me.
We described it in our own words.
and to be honest, there was some fear when we,Started these secular meetings that, came back to us.

(39:36):
I brought it to, a former delegate, it was,fear that we were going to rewrite the steps.
And I said, we're not going to rewrite the steps.
How you interpret the steps is your own.

Spencer (39:48):
It's personal.

Marilyn (39:49):
It's personal.
It's personal.
And we support people who are finding the,and for myself too, I had to find what it meant for me underneath those words.
Because if I had stuck with just those words,I don't think I would have stayed in Al Anon.
it would have become too religious and I just wasn'tgoing to be able to, decipher it any other way.

(40:15):
So I'm not doing a very good job summarizing.

Spencer (40:19):
I I love what you're saying,

Marilyn (40:21):
okay, but I do appreciate there are some words in how Al Anon works that it says, we may find a power greater than ourselves in natural law, universal love, beauty, a mountain, a thunderstorm, the many wonders of nature, creativity, and any number of other sources.
For me, I do not have to worship anything to experiencebeauty . The laws of nature, or the laws of physics.

(40:52):
I find it wondrous and I have a feeling of awe.

Spencer (40:56):
There's three paragraphs in a row that basically say, Hey, your higher power can be whatever you want it to be.
And don't try to put your higher power on anybody else.
I feel like those three paragraphs arein there specifically because of all the people who have trouble with the word God.

Marilyn (41:15):
But there are so many people that are having a version of religion forced down their throat or they get kicked out of an Al Anon meeting because they don't use the language that people want to hear.

Spencer (41:30):
Yeah,
that's, that's not supposed to happen.

Marilyn (41:32):
it's not,

Spencer (41:33):
The only requirement for membership is not that I believe the same thing that you do, not that I say the same thing that you do, but that I have a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.
After a short break, we will continue withour lives in recovery, where we talk about how recovery works in our daily lives.

(41:53):
But I asked you to bring some music and you did.
What did you bring for us?
What's the first one?

Marilyn (41:59):
Okay, my first is by the Indigo Girls.
It's called Closer to Fine.
I can just read the lyrics and itsounds like an Al Anon meeting to me.
the idea that it starts off, I'm tryingto tell you something about my life.
Maybe give me some insight between black and white.

(42:23):
And the best thing you've ever done for meis to help me take my life less seriously.
It's only life after all.
That represents to me, Al Anon, that we talkto each other, reason things out with someone else, but let there be no gossip or criticism.
the other line is, I wrap my fear around me like a blanket.

(42:46):
I sailed my ship of safety till I sank it.
I'm crawling on your shores.
That alliteration for me is really personal because when Icame into Al Anon, I felt like I was drowning, literally.
I was a young mother.
We had our own business.
My parents were demanding.
And I felt like if.

(43:07):
Anyone put one more finger on me, I wouldgo under and I wouldn't come back up.
I loved swimming as a child.
I have wonderful memories of swimming and the weight thatI was experiencing of taking on everybody else's feelings that I didn't understand what I was weighing myself down with, really describes what I was feeling, in that verse,

Spencer (43:42):
In this section of the podcast, we talk about our lives in recovery.
How have we experienced recovery recently?
I was thinking about this.
I was thinking about going to meetings.
I have a meeting Sunday evenings that hasbeen in my life for at least 20 years.
I don't know exactly, but sometime in the middle ofSunday afternoon, I get this feeling like I'm tired.

(44:09):
I just want to rest.
I don't want to go to the meeting Idon't know if you've ever been there.
but I have.
But I have a commitment.
I'm one of the two people that has a key to openthe building in which the meeting takes place.
So I need to be there.
Or the other guy who has a key needs to be there.

(44:30):
We're both getting older and sometimes we can't do it.
But, I have this commitment and I need to be there.
And if I don't go physically, I can join online aslong as somebody's there to open up the meeting.
And of course, when I getthere, I'm always glad I was there.
And I know this, and I try to tell myself this on Sundayafternoon, and I'm still like, I don't want to go.

(44:51):
Ah, life, life.
a week ago, I think it was.
There was a concert Sunday nightthat I really wanted to go to.
So I reached out and said, Hey, Iam going to this concert tonight.
I didn't say, I want to go to this concert.
Is it okay?
I said, I'm going to this concert tonight.
Rick, can you open the church?

(45:12):
And Rick's like, I'm sick.
This is all group text, right?

Marilyn (45:16):
right?

Spencer (45:17):
The people who live a few blocks from me, who I could take the key over to, they're like, no, we're on vacation.
We're not in town.
We're not coming to the meeting.
I'm like, I could go over at seven o'clock,open up the church and then go to the concert.
But that didn't really seem like an ideal solution.
And then one other person said,I really need a meeting tonight.

(45:40):
I'll come by and get the key fromyou so that I can have a meeting.
So it worked out, and I did startthis process several hours ahead.
So it had time to work out so it'sjust, I need to go to the meeting.
Sometimes I don't want to go to the meeting.
Sometimes I have a legitimatereason not to go to the meeting.
and the meeting still happens.
And when I go, I'm glad I went.

(46:01):
so there's that.
Also in our closing, it says, although you may notlike all of us, you'll love us in a very special way.
the same way we already love you.
And I was thinking about a friend of mine that I'veknown for a couple of decades, We were in a men's group together at church years ago, and the men's group fell apart for various reasons, personalities mostly.

(46:26):
But, we're still friends.
He's since moved away, And I was thinkingabout him and I was like, I'm not sure I really liked him, but I loved him like a brother.
And maybe that's a really appropriate phrasebecause you don't always like your brother.
I do like my brother, but, for meit's one of my, one of my sons.

(46:46):
I love him, but I'm not sure I likehim in his current incarnation.
being able to see, to in fact be given permission to notlike somebody even when you love them is kind of freeing.
So I don't know, there's somemeta recovery experiences there.

Marilyn (47:05):
Absolutely.
I really do, practice the thoughtthat I don't like the behaviors.
or the habits.
I love the person, but some people I restrict how longI'm with them because my mind will start finding, picking things One of the best things that ever happened to me when I did work a Step 4 and we're jumping to a different

(47:34):
topic, but what I realized one time, Spencer, it wasJanuary, in the 2000s, I don't know, and I was thinking, okay, what are my New Year's resolutions this year?
I tried to come up with one that, I'd usually keepin mind for a couple of months, but this time I think because of the effect of this hybrid adult child Al Anon meeting that I was really gaining a lot from, I recognized and I had been doing a resentment list by person in my family and doing my, inventory of my resentments.

(48:20):
And for my new year's resolution, I decided Ihad enough resentments in my life to last forever and my resolution was, I'm not going to add any more resentments to that resentment list.
So I was going to do a step 10.
If I felt some resentment, I was going to examine it.

(48:40):
Oh, was I gonna hang onto it?
Was I do.
I owe somebody something, but I was not gonna add it to thatlist of resentments that I was really dissecting where they had come from, who did they belong to, me or someone else.
All of that.
But the freedom I felt from doing mystep three and feeling sincere about it.

(49:07):
That I sincerely felt cared and understood withmy sponsor, my other Al Anon friends that we had, been there for each other to reason things out over different items in our lives, in our daily lives.
helped me put pen to paper about those resentments.

(49:28):
One of my big fears was that if I wrote out my fourstep list or inventory, it would get discovered.
And I would out somebody or out myself.
I had very low sense of privacy.
Growing up.
I totally had my own home.

(49:51):
I had a key to my own home, I had a door on my bedroom,all these things, but I still had my childhood beliefs and that's what I was dealing with in step three and step four.
What was I taught as a child to believe?
And do I still believe it?

(50:12):
or do I want to still believe it?

Spencer (50:15):
okay, thank you as I've been saying, My focus in upcoming episodes of the podcast is to make my way through the steps with however many episodes per step we need.
this is the third episode on step three.
We do welcome your thoughts.
You can join our conversation.

(50:35):
Leave us a voicemail.
Send us an email with your feedback or questions.
And Marilyn, how can people do that?

Marilyn (50:42):
You can send us a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery.
show.
Or if you prefer, you can call andleave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.

(51:08):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength and hope, or questionsabout today's topic of Step 3 as an agnostic or atheist, or any of our upcoming topics, including more steps.
If you have a topic you'd likeus to talk about, let us know.

(51:30):
If you would like advance notice for some ofour topics, so that you can contribute to that topic, you can sign up for our mailing list by sending an email to feedback at therecovery.
show.
Put quote email unquote in the subjectline to make it easier to spot.

Spencer (51:49):
I have gotten a number of emails that that's the entire Mail.
It says email in the subject line and nothing.
And I know exactly what that person wants.
And I put them on the mailing list.
Our website is therecovery.
show where we have all the information aboutthe show, which mostly these days is notes for each episode, which you can find at therecovery.

(52:12):
show slash number.
So for this one, therecovery.
show slash 419.
There we will have links to the books.
that we talked about or read from videos for themusic we chose, or that Marilyn chose, I should say.
There are also, there are some links toother Recovery podcasts and websites.

(52:33):
Now we're up to your second musical choice.
What have we got here?

Marilyn (52:37):
my second song is Imagine by John Lennon.
It's a short song.
but so precious to me.
Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try.
No hell below us, above us only sky.
And for me, it's living life withoutthe promise or punishment of a religion that I measure my life by how I live it.

(53:05):
I've said before that Al Anon is all about trialand error, that, I won't know how I'm going to be able to experience something until I try it, and I'm making healthy decisions for myself, but I don't know until I try, and there are no mistakes.

(53:25):
There are only lessons.
I love it.
It is a bit idealistic in a way, but it is the hope.
Imagine there are no countries it isn't hard to do.
Nothing to kill or die for and no religion too.
Imagine all the people living life in peace.
You.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

(53:49):
No need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man.
And for me, it's the human experience, and appreciation.
And I'm not the only one.
That's what I like.

Spencer (54:12):
You know, I love hearing from you.
Mary, who did episode 418 about retirement andrecovery with me, wrote, thanks for talking with me about retirement the other day.
I've been off kayaking the PNW, I think that mightbe Pacific Northwest, but I'm not sure, for the past few weeks and just got back to civilization.

(54:33):
Little smiley face.
I loved the conversation with Sarah becauseI have used the traditions in work, family, and every group I belong to for years.
I resonated with her discussionof higher power and traditions.
It has been a saving grace in my life.
Thank you, Mary H.
She's referring to a conversation with Sarah inepisode 417, which was titled Creating a Personal Higher Power in Recovery, where we touched on using the traditions in our personal life.

(55:02):
So thanks for that note, Mary.
And thanks again, Sarah for having that conversation.
I got an email from Patty, which, seems tobe actually talking about the same thing.
I'm not sure if it's actually in response to that, butshe writes, Here is something you may not be aware of.
I was exposed to these several years ago when our meetingspeaker, a district representative, used this as her topic.

(55:26):
I think this is an excellent way of how to translatethe Traditions for Personal Family Situations.
And by this she means, a page titled TheTraditions for Functioning as a Family Unit.
They are
1.
Common welfare as a family should come first.
Personal progress for all family membersdepends upon unity and stability.

(55:47):
2.
We need a loving God as the authority in our family.
It is not the alcoholic, a spoiled child, or my fearsthat should dominate or control the family unit.
3.
The only requirement for membershipin our family is to be part of it.
It is not necessary to have straight A's,perfect manners, or a charming personality.

(56:08):
4.
Each family member is encouraged to be an individualand develop his or her abilities, skills, or talents, except when that is detrimental to the family as a whole.
We try to keep balance in our family.
5.
I practice the 12 Steps myself.
I try to encourage and understand my family members towelcome them and give them comfort when appropriate.

(56:29):
6.
I do not meddle, intervene, or give unsolicited advice tomy adult children, lest problems of control, resentment, or anger divert us from our primary loving relationship.
7.
Each family unit ought to be selfsupporting to avoid creating dependency.
8.
My relationships should remain foreverloving, but I may say no as required.

(56:51):
9.
I do not have to organize or direct our whole family.
They may even be more responsible than I am.
10.
I do not need to express my opinion in their disagreementsor take sides in their disagreements unless I want to be drawn into the middle of their conflicts.
11.
My influence on the family is based on attractionrather than position, and I need to guard with special care the uniqueness of each family member.

(57:17):
12.
Anonymity limits the glory seeking, the powerseeking, the egos, and the personalities within the family and gives me the courage to be me.
I had not seen these before, so thank you for that.
And I traced this back to the summaryof the 1994 World Service Conference.
and I will put a link to that inthe show notes at therecovery.

(57:38):
show slash 419.
These rewritten traditions are on the page which is numbered32, but is actually the 54th page in the PDF summary file.
In that same section of the summary, there are severalother shares by World Service Conference delegates, on the traditions, which you might find interesting to read.

(57:59):
And did you know, you can go back and read all of theWorld Service Conference summaries back to the beginning.
So if you want to know what our delegates in thebusiness of Al Anon are doing, you can go find out.
Janice sent a voice memo in response to the episodeon retirement, but touching on some other things that have also been in my life over the last few years.

(58:23):
Thank you, Janice, for that.
Here's Janice.

Janice (58:27):
Hi, Spencer.
My name is Janice.
I'm a longtime listener.
I just adore your show and I listen to you on walks andit helps me connect with my higher power and to have a instant meeting wherever I am, whenever I need it.
I just saw on my episode list, that youwere going to be talking about retirement.

(58:51):
And I'm like, oh, that sounds a little boring.
And then I'm like, no, I'm thatage and I'm worried about it.
And I'm going to listen.
And what a marvelous show you and Mary did just now.
You covered all the issues that are of concern to me.
I am in retirement.
I have been for a bit.
I'm 69 years old, but my husband,has been an active alcoholism.

(59:11):
for years And finally, after manyfalls, rehabs, he, has dementia.
And the solution that Higher Power found for him andfor us is that he needed to go into senior living.
Fortunately, we had long term care insurance like youtalked about, and I'm grateful that we were able to have it.
He is now, feeling comfortable, Ibelieve, and, doing well in his new place.

(59:34):
And I have to say that I am greatly relieved that he'sno longer living at home, and that he's being cared for.
I thought that I would feel really goodabout it though, I'm so relieved, and now, after about 8 months, I'm feeling lonely.
I wish I did have my partner at home, I wishthat, Or that we could have been, but we can't.

(59:56):
And this is the solution that's necessary.
But I have all the feelings that you guys, talked about.
About, dealing with finances.
Having to downsize our home.
Which is just way too big and it's old.
And, I want to travel.
And I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with myself.
I also I've really enjoyed art.
And I've taken art classes for a bit.

(01:00:17):
But now that I'm retired, I'm like not as much intoit, which Mary had mentioned, but I want to see about maybe finding a class that I can go to because I think being with other people is really important for me.
My program is so important.
I go to at least five meetings a week, someof them online, some of them in person.
Service is so important for me.

(01:00:38):
And really I think even most importantis the spiritual aspect of it.
And now that I'm facing These lateryears, I'm healthy now, thank heavens.
But I'm worried about, what's to come.
I worry about death, or think about it anyway.
Even though I'm not that old, it's like it's coming.
And I do feel like I can lean on my program for thatbecause I was not a religious person, but spiritual I am.

(01:01:03):
And I'm, I think I'm going to lean more intomy higher power and my sponsor and all of that.
My Ala friends who are older to deal withthis, and I feel grateful that I have that.
Anyway, thanks, all your, all of your, episodesare great, Spencer, but this one was particularly meaningful to me and I want to thank you both.

(01:01:24):
Thanks a lot

Spencer (01:01:25):
Thank you for sharing, Janice.
I'm glad that Mary and I were able to say somethingin our conversation that was meaningful to you.
Got an anonymous review on Apple Podcasts titled Lifesaver!
Exclamation point.
I am a single mom of a three year old.
I have been to one Al Anon meeting when mydaughter was first born and I was intimidated.

(01:01:46):
These shows help introduce me to the structure and heartof the program and ease me into some of the jargon.
I feel so much more ready to attend now.
Finding an Al Anon meeting that I canmake and find child care is challenging.
In desperation, I turned to iTunesand found this show by accident.
It has been so comforting and helpful to me.
I have been in heartbreak and crisisand this show is here to help.

(01:02:09):
Thank you.
And it's signed, Tired person with dogs and kid.
Man, just having dogs and a kid is enough to make you tired.
Besides whatever alcoholicbehavior is going on in your life.
thanks for that review.
And I hope you do find a meeting soonthat you're able to make, you know, there are a lot of online meetings these days.

(01:02:29):
If you go to al anon.
org under meetings, click on find an electronicmeeting, I think is the title, something like that.
You should be able to find a meeting thathappens at a time that you're able to participate.
And it doesn't really matter where in the worldyou are, as long as you have a computer and some internet, which sounds like you probably do.

(01:02:50):
Got an email from D'Lena.
Hi, Spencer.
Thanks so much for all you do.
The podcast has been a major part of myrecovery since I started in Al Anon in 2019.
I've heard you talk about working through the blueprintfor progress with a group, and I think something like that would be helpful for me in working through the traditions.
The fellowship part of Al Anon is still hardfor me, since I'm used to living in isolation.

(01:03:14):
I chose my sponsor in part because she said sheused to be able to count on one hand the number of people she trusted and took pride in the fact.
But that the program had made it soher phone was full of people she loved.
I identified with her old way of beingand wanted to learn how to change.
We've worked together for the past five years, but I'vejust added her to my handful of trusted people, though I've met other people in our local groups and like them.

(01:03:38):
I just haven't opened up orattached to them to the same degree.
I'm wondering if you know of any groups currently workingthrough the traditions using Reaching for Personal Freedom or another workbook, or if maybe some listeners would be interested in getting a Zoom group together to try it out.
Thanks again, D'Lena.
one of my regular Al Anon meetings has asubgroup, the group that is on Zoom, basically.

(01:04:04):
It's a hybrid meeting.
We're working our way through Reaching for Personal Freedom.
We're currently about to start on concept four, in fact.
The format is pretty simple.
Each meeting we read from the book and then we answerone of the questions at a time around the group, and if we have time, we read the next question and so on.
I think a more thorough study might use Paths to Recovery,which has longer readings and more questions, but this is a great way to start thinking about how the steps, traditions, and concepts of service might apply in my personal life.

(01:04:35):
Because that is the focus of that workbook,Reaching for Personal Freedom, is how to take these things and apply them in your personal life.
I don't know of a group that is specifically focusingon the traditions, but I'm putting it out here.
See if someone does, or someone's interested,I can put you back in touch with D'Lena, and maybe you guys can get something going.

(01:04:56):
I will say, D'Lena, that working with a smallgroup on the steps, or whatever, was for me, a great way to develop more of that trust.
Because in my case it was the same small group thatwas meeting every time and we really got to sort of see into each other and that's one of the places in which I think trust resides is really seeing the other person and seeing their own vulnerabilities makes it more easy for me to reveal my vulnerabilities and to trust.

(01:05:30):
So just a thought there.
I have a voicemail from Andria

Andria (01:05:33):
hi, my name is Andria and I was listening to one of your episodes.
This one was with the AA program sober cast, Ibelieve, and at the end of the show a young lady shared a little bit about her story and her struggle with what she called a disease with perfectionism.

(01:05:59):
I struggle with perfectionism as well, but Ilistened to a book called, The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schaeffler.
Perfectionism isn't a disease at all.
It's part of our personality.

(01:06:19):
And if we can manage itappropriately, it works well with us.
But if we don't manage it, it does not.
I just listened to that episode for thefirst time and I enjoyed it and hope to continue listening to more of your program.
I am a member of Alcoholics Anonymous but do suffer withcodependency as well due to a lot of my perfectionism.

(01:06:51):
I think a lot of people do suffer with perfectionismdue to their background and history, which also can lead to, other issues as addiction and alcoholism.
Anyway, thanks for, your time and energy on bringing a greatmessage to a lot of people that are in need of hearing it.

(01:07:17):
Bye bye now

Spencer (01:07:18):
Andria, thank you.
Thank you for sharing your experienceand your understanding of perfectionism.
I was not able to find the exactepisode you're referring to.
If I search for perfectionism, too much comes up.
If I search for disease of perfectionism, nothing comes up.
If you can go back and find that episode thatyou listened to, hopefully recently, and let me know exactly which one it is, we can dig a little deeper if that's what you're interested in doing.

(01:07:47):
And that's what I got today.
I'll hear from more of you by next time, I'm sure
Marilyn, I want to thank you so much for joining metoday for this wide ranging conversation centered around step three and our understanding of higher power.
we went, I felt in all kinds ofinteresting directions with this.
I'm so glad you, stepped up.

(01:08:09):
Thank you.

Marilyn (01:08:10):
Thank you, Spencer.
I have enjoyed this so much.
I actually have had this conversation with many newcomerswho say, how can I do the steps if I don't believe in a God?
It's so personal.
And I'm just so happy that you're interestedin hearing a personal discovery of this, how this healing process has worked for me.

(01:08:37):
It continues to work.

Spencer (01:08:39):
I believe all we have is personal discovery.
So yay.

Marilyn (01:08:43):
yeah,

Spencer (01:08:44):
And your third song is a little different from the first two.
What is it?

Marilyn (01:08:47):
yeah.
It is Hotel California by the Eagles.
It tells a story of someone getting tired on theroad thinking I need to pull over and they hear a beckoning call to visit this hotel and they stopped.

(01:09:08):
and realized I was thinking to myself,this could be heaven or this could be hell.
So it did go back to the heaven and hell reference, butthe song plays over and over for me because it represents being trapped in the cycle of either addiction, alcoholism, obsession, and that final Lines, relax, said the night man.

(01:09:36):
We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time youlike, but you can never leave.
Those were powerful words for me that I could let something,my clinging to an outcome that I really had no control over.

(01:09:56):
And that in letting go, it just dissolves.
It is very Buddhist and has helped melet go, let good, live and let live.
That's a lot of the message I hear as thealternative to being trapped in cycles of clinging.

Spencer (01:10:27):
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you one day at a time.