Surviving Alex: A Mother’s Story of Love, Loss, and Addiction – 414

I had the privilege of speaking with Pat R., the author of the heartfelt and powerful book “Surviving Alex: A Mother's Story of Love, Loss, and Addiction.” This story may resonate with you if you are grappling with the complex combination of mental illness and addiction. A Mother's Heartfelt Journey Pat's journey began with her...

The post Surviving Alex: A Mother’s Story of Love, Loss, and Addiction – 414 appeared first on The Recovery Show.

Episode Transcript

Spencer (00:01):
Pat's son, Alex, struggled with both mental illness and addiction.
He did not survive his illnesses, but Pat did.
What is her story and what feelings has sheidentified in her current approach to treatment?
Welcome to Episode 414 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Lisa, Barbara,Ted, Jennifer, Shira, Carrie, and Jaime.

(00:24):
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you Lisa, Barbara, Ted, Jennifer, Shira,Carrie, and Jaime for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.

(00:48):
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

Pat (00:53):
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this show we represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During this show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.

Spencer (01:18):
My name is Spencer and I will be your host today.
Joining me today is Pat.
Welcome to The Recovery Show, Pat.

Pat (01:25):
Thanks for inviting me.

Spencer (01:27):
The thing that prompted me to invite you is your book titled Surviving Alex, A Mother's Story of Love, Loss, and Addiction.
I'd like to ask you to read a bit from the book
. Pat: All right, I will do that.
This is from the epilogue of my book.
so by the time people read this, theywill have read the completed book.

(01:52):
this is what I end with.
It's a counterfactual exercise.
What I really want, though, is a do over.
I know that's not possible, but Ican imagine a different outcome.
Let me close by considering what historianscall counterfactual inquiry, weighing potential consequences of alternative courses of action.

(02:16):
Everything I've learned about harm reduction hasconvinced me that it might have worked for Alex.
That it's precisely the life he wanted, one thatwould have permitted him to drink in moderation, but no program he attended allowed him that option.
And frankly, we were so ensconced in the existingrecovery orthodoxy that we couldn't see it either.

(02:41):
What might have happened if we had lived in a worldsteeped in compassionate paradigm shifting harm reduction, as opposed to the punitive system we faced?
Perhaps Alex would not have movedso far down the second road.
Perhaps he would even have shifted back to the first.
Maybe we could have kept him alive long enoughto help him make different choices, if there had been more than one option available.

(03:11):
It is in the criminal justice arena where alternativeapproaches might have made the most difference.
Harm reduction strategies striveto meet people where they are.
If marijuana had been decriminalized in New Jersey by2014, Alex would never have been charged with possession.
Moreover, if possession of small amounts of alldrugs were decriminalized, as in Portugal, Alex would not have been charged with heroin possession and hence later not faced warrants for his arrest.

(03:46):
Instead of deteriorating in jail, he might haveparticipated in non punitive mental health treatment.
Care with no automatic 30 day limit.
And what if those treatments had been longenough to seriously address his mental health issues and be fully covered by insurance?
It's clear from Alex's letters that hishopelessness stemmed primarily from his belief that he'd never get beyond the charges he faced.

(04:17):
As he saw it, his life was alreadyruined, and there was no reason to live.
As I witnessed firsthand, abstinence programs are oftenineffective, but virtually the only treatment available.
We need ways to provide safe, maintenance dosesof therapeutic drugs under controlled conditions.

(04:37):
Supervised injection sites should be availablefor those reliant on drugs, providing safe places where substance users can test and use drugs.
If those sites had existed in Newark, Alex mighthave found a haven that could have saved his life.
I wish his last New Jersey detox had recommendeda local program instead of flying him to Florida.

(05:03):
We would have been close enough to participate in histreatment and to protect him from the predatory sober houses he encountered in the month before he died.
He would not have visited the doctor who prescribed him90 Xanax and 30 Ambien when he walked in off the street.
Drugs that landed him nearly comatoseless than two weeks before he died.

(05:29):
AA was considered the gold standardat every rehab Alex attended.
As his experience demonstrates, there islittle room for deviance in such programs.
The medical staff described him as disdainfulof AA and abstinence, which was true enough, but then as a consequence, he was essentially written off as not salvageable, brittle, and hypersensitive to criticism, and even a sociopath.

(05:57):
Their approach placed the blame for theirineffectiveness on Alex's young shoulders and amounted to a classic self fulfilling prophecy.
As a newly minted psychiatrist, Carl Eric Fisherhad access to a lengthy, specialized rehab program for medical personnel when he misused drugs.

(06:20):
These programs claim a five yearsuccess rate of 75 percent or more.
No other program even comes close.
It's not just the social capital that those attendingbring such programs, it's the strategies they use.
Fisher's random urine screeninghelped him keep his medical license.

(06:41):
These strategies worked for Fisher.
He's a psychiatrist in good standing today.
Fisher and his colleagues had a profession to go back to.
Alex was desperate to work and earn money, atheme he repeated often during his rehab years.
If he couldn't find a job, his goal ofliving a normal life was beyond his reach.

(07:02):
What I really believe in my heart ofhearts is that we needed more time.
There is research evidence that extratime could have made a difference.
7 in 10 of those who misuse alcohol getbetter with no interventions whatsoever.
Most people using illegal drugs age out by 30.
And by age 37, fully three quarters have no symptoms.

(07:26):
Alex was only 25.
He needed more time to let his prefrontal cortexdevelop to find solutions and to learn to hope again.
A different historical context steepedin harm reduction compassion might well have given him that extra time, if only.

(07:49):
That's it.
An edited portion of my epilogue.
you, yes, thank you, Pat, I read the book and I tell you it was both hard to put down and hard to keep reading sometimes.
Thank

Pat (08:01):
you for reading the book, because most people who interview me don't read the book, and I'm very happy when somebody does, because the questions they ask are really, good, and sometimes hard to deal with, and I like that.

Spencer (08:16):
yeah.
obviously we're not going to go through thewhole book in this short time we're together, but I think it would be helpful to the person listening if you could give us, the short version.

Pat (08:31):
The short version.
Alex was just a, a wonderful kid.
he was smart.
my husband and I, both of whom are sociologists,always thought he was smarter than we were.
He was athletic.
He loved baseball, played baseball from the time hewas five years old, all the way through, high school, high school team, and, he was just Wickedly funny.

(08:58):
Takes after my husband in that regard, and you could justtell that he was learning that, as he sat on Chip's lap, it was like by osmosis he was getting that, sense of humor.
Nobody ever accused me of having much of asense of humor, although my husband says I'm a really good straight person, I guess that's

Spencer (09:19):
then you make a good combination, huh?

Pat (09:22):
he was, just, just a wonderful kid, until he turned 12.
and then during that summer when he was 12, justbefore he turned 13, he developed anorexia.
Like any normal family, you take tons of pictures, and youhave them in scrapbooks, and now they're online, of course.

(09:43):
Then you could just see something happened then,because he stopped smiling, and he was the funniest guy, and he would laugh, and he would smile, and then all of a sudden that summer he just stopped smiling.
And so we knew something was going onand then he started to lose weight.
that was a, blinking red lightsaying something is wrong here.

(10:06):
he, developed, tremendous anxieties and depression.
and we found an eating disorder unit relativelyclose to our home, and we took him there.
He was at that point 68 pounds, which was 75 percentof what his normal weight should have been at the time.
But when you stop eating, you lose a lotof weight, and that's what happened to him.

(10:27):
we took him to the hospital, and here he was,12 years old, in a room across from the nurse's station, and we had to leave him there, right?
It was like a psychiatric hospital.
and we couldn't have taken him out.
We'd have to let them know two days aheadof time in order to even take them out.
So that was a hard, incredibly hard thing todo, but it worked, behavioral therapy worked.

(10:48):
And over the course of months, he was inpatient, and thenhe was outpatient, and then he had months and months more of therapy, nutritional therapy, and, psychological therapy.
And, we thought we had him back again.
We thought we had our good family back again.
But shortly thereafter is when he starteddeveloping other even scarier symptoms.

(11:12):
But we didn't really know it at the time.
He started, drinking and then high school, itjust built up and it got worse, in college.
He went to a great college and, he immediatelystarted having major problems there, a blackout drinking, and gotten in trouble with authority figures, really starting in high school and then in college and kept crashing into the criminal justice system.

(11:41):
But he graduated on time and, then that summer, we had akind of major, set of unfortunate deaths in the family.
Alex's Grandmother, my husband's mother,died after being with us at graduation.
Died a month to the day after Alex graduated.
And then, six weeks after that, Chip's brother died.

(12:04):
They lived half a mile from us.
And with his death came twochildren, who are now our children.
We, we consider them our children.
We love them.
it's bizarre when you think about it that welost our son, a year or so earlier, we gained two additional children and, we love them to this day.
So it's right after he graduated that we started tosee the, really serious, hardcore, drinking , he had gotten worse and worse and blackout, and then he started taking more serious, harder drugs, during the, summer of 2013, and that's really when he started heroin.

(12:42):
and then it was pretty much, downhill from thatpoint in the sense of 12 rehabs, New Jersey, Florida.
You name it, he was all over the place, andwe just saw him, circling the drain, and, felt so powerless to, to stop it at that point.
you know, we're sociologists, we're goodresearchers, and, I did searches, and, tried to find all possible, strategies to do something.

(13:12):
And that's just when, the shit hit the fan, so to speak.
And, it, it became really difficult.
He said to us on more than one occasion,when we would say, why are you doing this?
You know, and he loved us.
We loved him.
He knew that.
and, he said, do you think I want to do this?

(13:32):
And we didn't.
but, The strategies for dealingwith it were few and far between.
he had only access to 12 step programs, and as I mentionedin the epilogue, they just didn't work with him.
And I think nowadays there are differentstrategies that might have worked better for him.
he had friends, one friend in particularwho did heroin with him and he went to a 12 step program and just accepted everything.

(14:01):
It was just like, it was perfect.
It really worked for him.
But that wasn't something that really worked for Alex.
The end of my story is that I feel like if we hadmore time, He really could have aged out of it.
and I think if we had access and I had access to thekind of strategies that I now see, existing out there,

(14:23):
I think he could have saved his own life, thathe would have gotten to that point where he could say, I don't want to do this anymore.
that's my story.
I'm sticking with it.

Spencer (14:34):
My wife has told me any number of times that, she didn't want to be drinking the way she was drinking.
She just wasn't able to not do it,

Pat (14:46):
Oh yeah.

Spencer (14:47):
a long time.
and that I think is, that's a themethat I've heard from many people.
another theme that I've heard and Iseem to be hearing it more, recently.
Is people looking at what pain they were tryingto cover up with their drug or alcohol use.

Pat (15:08):
Yep, self medication.
Self medication.

Spencer (15:11):
yeah, and for many people their path to recovery had to include new ways of dealing with the pain in their life.
and it sounds like from what you said, and fromwhat I read in the book, that Alex was very deeply affected by the deaths in the family.

(15:35):
and that, that reemphasized perhaps his use ofmind numbing substances, if we can call them that.

Pat (15:42):
Yeah, I think the deaths in the family really exacerbated an existing, because the anorexia piece of it, happened before any of those deaths, Chip's brother, his wife, had died eight years before he did, and Alex was devastated because he just loved that aunt, Kathy.

(16:03):
He spoke at her, he was, just going into high school andhe spoke at her, service and it never even occurred to me.
He was just getting out of the anorexia and he,wrote up a eulogy and, Put it on Chip's desk and we said, you want to say this at the service?
And he said, yeah, and he said it and it wasjust, it showed how good he was at writing, and how smart he was, but how much he loved Kathy.

(16:33):
At the time Chip's brother died, He couldn't do that.
He was a different person.
and that was because that I think the anxietieswere really, taking him over in a way.
So you're absolutely right.
self medication gets us away from the idea of choice, right?
we think of those sort of conventional waysof thinking of explaining addiction, right?

(16:56):
And it's always, There's choice, right?
There's defects in the character amongthe people who are, end up being addicted.
and this is the standard way.
These are conventional way that you seethis in movies and people talk about it.
You see it in books.
You name it.
So that's really the conventionalway that we think about it.
And I think it's so wrong.

(17:18):
and then there was this movement tothink about it as a brain disease.
Which, when it was happening, Iwas like, okay, that's better.
That's better than saying that, this, that this personhas defects in his character and it's just a choice.
But I think the problem with those two, right?
Choice and brain disease is that thereare personalistic explanations, right?

(17:40):
They focus on the person as opposed to thinkingabout the context in which choice occurs, right?
Now, as a sociologist, that's really what I focuson is those kind of systemic factors that exist out there that help us to understand why people are, doing whatever kind of drugs is their drug of choice, right?

(18:06):
And so I think self medication is there somethingthat is larger and that Of course we make choices, I would never say that we don't make choices, but we make choices in a larger context, and we need to understand what that larger context is.
Is it a kind of medical kinds of issues,psychiatric kinds of issues, is it, could be socioeconomic issues, it could be poverty, it could be, unemployment, incarceration, and so on.

(18:35):
racism, right?
These are all kind of socioeconomic kindsof explanations that exist out there, which could lead people to self medicate.
you hit the nail on the head,it's definitely self medication.

Spencer (18:47):
so in this podcast in particular, we're concerned with, we'd like to, think about, talk about the effects of our loved one's choices or non choices, alcoholism, addiction, on us and how we are affected and how we live through, live with, recover from, whatever language you want to use.

(19:13):
those effects.
And so I'd like to ask, while this washappening to Alex, what was happening to you?
to you and your husband, to your marriage,to the other children in the family.

Pat (19:32):
The other kids, were our niece and nephew, who we now call our son and daughter.
Our, nephew was really affected by it.
He was six years younger and he could not understandwhy Alex was doing this and he loved, loved, loved him.
Our niece, was.
too young, we tried to keep life fairly stable so thatshe wouldn't be affected, which of course increased the, both responsibility but also the effects that it had on us because it's not like you can, when somebody's there nodding off at the table, pretend like you're having a normal dinner, when you're clearly not.

(20:13):
I've thought a lot about this, effects on thefamily, because people say that they get divorced in these kinds of situations, when they have to deal with any family member who becomes addicted.
You may remember the, dedication.
Which kind of gives you a little,idea of how it affects, Chip and me.
So I said to Alex, our love survives, and to Chip,somehow we managed to survive with our love intact.

(20:39):
It was no easy feat.
I mean, that is really the case.
It was no easy feat.
A child, you have to, think, you're in this togetherand you're going to do this and I'm going to do this.
I think overall Chip is, much more, emotionaland raw, which is a kind of counter to the idea that people have about gender, right?

(21:02):
It's always the woman who's emotional.
Not me, like I'm like, compartmentalized and he wouldalways joke you're so compartmentalized, but it was the only way that I felt like I could take care of my life and our life and deal with, three kids, one of whom was
having serious difficulties with substance use.
I think you assume you're going to be together, right?

(21:24):
you just say, okay, this is something that,we're going to have to work on together.
And you just make that assumption that you'regoing to go along and, and take care of it.
Again, if you think about those externalfactors, that come, those systemic factors, Addiction, creates an external threat.
And that external threat, If it's your child,it brings you together because you end up having to address that external threat.

(21:52):
so even that's a kind of, like the sociologycoming in and saying, This is an external threat.
We need to figure out how we're going to deal with it.
You know, people say, how do you do it?
And I just say, oh God, you just put one foot infront of the other and you march along and you try to address, the issues as they happen one by one by one.
And, there were certain things that he tookcare of, like he would go to meetings with Alex.

(22:16):
He took him to, probably hundreds of meetings.
He didn't want to do the grief meetings like Naranon, right?
He didn't want to talk about, the difficulties that ourfamily was having and the difficulties that he was having in dealing with addiction to people he felt he didn't know.
Me, I I was good with that.

(22:39):
I did okay in Naranon and I loved the people.
I love the people that I've met in my Naranon group.
it eventually, once Alex died, itjust was too painful, to keep going.
I couldn't deal with it because they were stillgoing through that kind of trauma, and kid dies.
That piece of the trauma.
Stops.

(22:59):
And then you have a whole different part
of

Spencer (23:01):
yeah.
Alright.

Pat (23:03):
over after that part.
So I, Chip and I, we learned how to, justhelp each other, deal with each other.
You read his chapter then.
Basically he said, fathers aresupposed to take care of things, right?

Spencer (23:16):
Yeah, that is our societal expectation that it's true.

Pat (23:20):
and there was another dad.
who lost a son who told him that.
So he took that and it felt oh my gosh, I didn't succeedin saving my son and I should have been able to save him.
Meanwhile, I was like, researching and, going out andmeeting a bunch of different people, trying different, this strategy and that strategy and not trying to come up with some kind of solution that worked.

(23:44):
For me.
So we had very different ways of coping.
His idea was he wanted to get back and to be like a normal

Spencer (23:51):
That's what we want.

Pat (23:53):
Yeah.
That's what we want.
Me, I.
I changed my whole life.
Overnight.

Spencer (24:01):
So you and your husband had really different approaches to trying to deal with it, but it sounds like you were able to still work together.

Pat (24:14):
Because we had this common enemy, right?
This common enemy was addiction that wastaking over the life of our beloved child.

Spencer (24:23):
yeah.
I think that's not always the case, Heh.

Pat (24:29):
I think we were lucky.
We were lucky and We're still together, nine years later.
and dealing with different kinds of trauma,but, we're still figuring it out together,

Spencer (24:41):
Okay, Let's just focus in a little bit on the things that you did for yourself.
In order to.
As the title of the book puts it, survive Alex,which that also means surviving his death.

Pat (24:54):
Right.

Spencer (24:55):
everything that led up to it as well, I think.

Pat (24:59):
Yeah.
I think for me, The point at which I reallybegan to survive him and figure out what I'm going to do, for the rest of my life.
I needed to understand and explain to myselfwhy this happened to my family, right?
And I wanted to, one of my goals, up front was to,make sure that people understand what it's like to lose, a family member to drugs, substance use.

(25:29):
Because people don't really know, they see itin the movies and, it's not really like that.
It's like living it on a day to day life.
It is.
it is just insanity.
there's a reason why people in the addiction community callit insanity, because it really is on a day to day basis.
And that's why I framed chapters 9 and 10 in the book,as a way of saying, here's what it's like, people.

(25:53):
if you want to know, here's the scenes of our lives.
here's what happened during the scenes of our lives.
And I go into incredible detail of.
of what it's like, because Iwant people to understand that.
But I also want people to see themselves.
I feel like every day when I sat down and write, I hadpeople who were going through this or might go through this or did go through it and lost their loved ones, I wanted them to know that somebody out there understands it.

(26:28):
and I also want to do it from theperspective of a sociologist, right?
and I want to say what happens when your loved one dies?
Because so many of the stories are, the heroic, Oh, wecame together and we saved our son and they're beautiful.
Many of them, beautiful boy, right?
was really one of the first out of the gate.

(26:48):
It's a beautiful story, butthere's also the flip side of it.
What happens if you don't?
in addition to saying, okay, I'm a sociologist.
How does a sociologist look at this?
I also wanted to, Be part of a kind of community of action.
I wanted people to know that there are different ways.
Now, there's been a lot of change.

(27:09):
some of it's the same old, same old.
but some of it's better, it is better.
There are opportunities that exist out there.
There are these kinds of podcasts, right?
Which didn't even exist before, which give people, givenow, in the present, give people a way of dealing with it.
I think that's really important and there,places out there that, I'm a mom, so I'll talk about it from a mom's perspective that a mom can go to, to learn about it if she has a son or daughter, and so many sons are going through this.

(27:46):
It's a huge problem with sons.
if you have a loved one, it's not only sons, right?
Lots of young women, and, not so young.
People go through this as well,but there are places to look now.
there's, various kinds of, groups ofpeople that exist nowadays that didn't exist back when I was going through this.

(28:06):
I had one online, place that I went to and connectedwith, and it wasn't such a great fit for me.
because I was very outspoken in some of these groups.
This is why I had problems with, Naranon ultimatelywas because I like to talk and I like to have connections with people and I, I always was trying to cross talk and you can't cross talk.

(28:30):
so I started with those online groups andthen I went to bigger groups that were getting together to, regionally, to address it.
and then that didn't really fit.
I wanted a smaller group and I got involved in a group inNew Jersey called Denied Treatment, which was, attempting to deal with issues of, insurance parity and to ensure that there was insurance parity between, those physical kind of issues and substance use and mental health kinds of issues.

(29:00):
That was fun because I got to testify and I gotto write op eds and, use my skills in a way.
So I enjoyed that and I madesome great friends through that.
and I did also did all thosethings that everybody does, right?
, I tried meditation.
I wasn't very successful, but I tried it.

(29:20):
I went to a psychic even, that was fun.
whatever, anybody tried something,I said, okay, I'm gonna try it.
and, and then I started work, and then I startedwriting for recovery, as I call it, and I'm writing the book January 1st of 2021 I sat down at my desk and I said, okay, today's the day.
And I just, it just came pouring out of me.

(29:42):
So much easier to write than any sociology had everbeen because I was writing about, me and my family and my life and, my ideas for, for doing something about it and being part of this community of action.
So now that I've completed the book, that's really whatI want to do is figure out, I still don't really know, but figure out, what is it that I want to do, for advocacy.

(30:07):
I found some great Advocacyorganizations, Mobilize Recovery.
I went to their conference last year and I walkedin and I go, oh my god, these are my people.
I just love that conference and I just connected withthe people because we talk and we understand each other.
So that's where I am.

Spencer (30:29):
All right.
Mobilize recovery.
I will find that, I will put alink on the website at therecovery.
show slash 414, so anybody who'slistening can also find that
. finding your people, as you said, I'mfortunate that effectively happened to me when I walked into my first Al-Anon meeting.

(30:52):
I found people who I felt understood.
You talk in your book about stigma, and that,the stigma on, addicted people, but I also felt a stigma on being the loved one of an addicted person.

Pat (31:08):
Oh yeah.
Courtesy, it's called Courtesy Stigma.

Spencer (31:12):
yeah, and that just evaporated in that room.
these people didn't judge me for not being able to fixmy loved one, which I was judging myself, obviously.
so I think, that is one of the keys to helpingourselves, is finding a community, finding a place where we can feel at home, and finding a place where maybe we can let go of our self judgment.

Pat (31:39):
Absolutely.
Because we all have that self

Spencer (31:43):
Oh my God,
yes!
What did I do?
What didn't I do?

Pat (31:47):
I do, yeah.
that's what Chip's chapter is all about,What could I have done differently?
Even now, that was the, that's the book.
So I'm trying to figure out, couldI have done this differently, right?

Spencer (31:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I heard some hope in that epilogue that things are changing.
That, perhaps if what happened to Alex hadhappened now, instead of when it did, that the outcome could have been different.
that's your counterfactual.
you, mentioned in our correspondence, biases that you sawin the medical providers that you think didn't help him.

(32:26):
I guess this is one way to phrase that.
Do you want to talk into that a little bit?

Pat (32:31):
sure.
We just encountered, from the very beginning, biases.
Nurses and doctors who belittled Alex and it's likeall they believed was that he was choosing this.
And, we knew better.
We knew he wasn't choosing this.
We knew the history of him having anorexia.
So clearly there were some, anxietiesthat he was self medicating for.

(32:57):
but at every, not every, that's not true.
That's too strong.
But at Too many of the, rehabs and psychiatric hospitals,with just the psychiatric hospital that he went to, within a week and a half of arriving, they were describing him as a sociopath and psychopath, which is just, Absolutely, this is a psychiatrist and the social work labeling him.

(33:25):
And, sociologists, we know about labeling the danger oflabeling, but, psychopathy and, being labeled a psychopath and a sociopath, those are not even diagnoses in the DSM.

Spencer (33:40):
Those are common language terms rather than medical terms.

Pat (33:45):
absolutely.
They're not medical.
And in fact, they have a different, description of themnow, which, I could see how those made sense, given Alex, if you talk about what psychopaths are and what sociopaths are, there was no way he was ever anything related to that.
And so they Typed him and labeled him in a veryshort period of time because, he did not mesh well with the whole 12 step kind of approach.

(34:13):
and I feel by the time I got to the end of the book, I guessmy sense of this is it's not that I want to lay blame.
I think we need a conversations.
I hope that my book is made available to, medical,programs and nursing programs and you name it.
just because this is how we shouldn'tbe doing our medicine, right?

(34:37):
We should be empathic in how we're doing our medicine.
But I also feel like, we could all do better.
Just like I think we could have donebetter if we had more information.
I think schools could do better.
Hospitals can do better.
, treatment programs, right?
All of us could just do better.
I don't really want to label people as being, you know,bad, but they were pretty bad to label him in that way.

(35:05):
and I think we could do better andI hope they learn to do better.

Spencer (35:10):
Another thing that you mentioned a couple of times is the time it takes to treat, I think, both mental illness and addiction, and many people consider addiction to be a form of mental illness, and that in our society, access to long term treatment, is severely limited for many people.

(35:33):
do you see this as a, anotherarea in which we could do better?

Pat (35:40):
I've seen statistics, that some such small percentage of people that actually have substance use issues can get access to programs.
I don't have that off the top of my head, but I'vecertainly seen very small percentages of doing that.
So there are people who have issues who don't have access.
And then there are people, like we hadCadillac insurance, as I call it, because we were working for the state of New Jersey.

(36:06):
So we had really good insurance, butnot all of, the psychiatric hospital he went to was, we paid that out of pocket.
and I have friends who spent hundreds ofthousands of dollars to do that as well.
I always say health care shouldbe a right, not a privilege.
and the idea that we don't have, that people don'thave access to, treatment programs is criminal.

(36:29):
and also the insurance covers, it runseverything because Every single program he went to was limited to 30 days, like one month.
You go in there, you do it, and one month later,you're supposed to be, miraculously cured.
Sometimes I hear of people who had months worth oftreatment, and that was never something, that Alex had.

(36:52):
and he wasn't, he wasn't cured, and even atthe end of the programs they gave him, the likelihood is he's going to relapse, and sure enough, a couple of days later, guess what?
He relapsed because, you didn't cure him in your programand say, okay, we just, push him out to the next place.
And then, he would relapse, and he would go tothe detox, and then he would go to another rehab, and it's just that kind of, insanity, is just insane, that people have to go through that

(37:23):
.And people are still going through it.
some people had a lot worse than,have it now a lot worse than we do.

Spencer (37:30):
I think we hit both ends of that, when my wife went to her first inpatient treatment.
She was actually limited by insurance tojust a few days, basically detox, not even treatment, and we paid out of pocket for a few more days, so maybe she had a total of a week.

(37:54):
she did not achieve long term recovery from that experience.
and we were fortunate that, we're in an economicsituation where we could then pay out of our own pocket for a long term residential program.
that helped.
it was not the end of the story, but many peoplewouldn't have been able to do that at all.

(38:14):
and that, limits their access to recovery.
I think this is also true for many other medical conditions.
That people with money, people with goodinsurance have access to better treatment.
And you're right, it sucks.
It's wrong.

Pat (38:29):
I was just going to say, carousel ride from hell.
I couldn't remember that as we were talking aboutthat, like people talk about it, the insanity, but I came up with this phrase carousel ride from hell, because that really, describes the kind of trauma that families get into, and, why families experience stigma, As well as the user, him or herself.

Spencer (38:52):
I think the other thing that I'd like to touch on here is your thoughts on The importance of providing multiple paths to recovery because, as you say, the 12 step approach was not working for Alex, and, is not something that works for everybody very clearly.

Pat (39:11):
Yeah.
Sometimes people ask me, what wouldyou think families should look for?
and I always focus on this idea of multiple paths.
most of the people that I hang out with nowadays,there's a wonderful group called, Moms for all paths to recovery, and this is the central piece of what they argue, is that we need multiple paths, and certainly if 12 step works for someone, then they should go that path.

(39:38):
But It shouldn't be institutionalized that it's theonly way that we'll pay insurance, for example, or connected with the criminal justice system, right?
That only one, like for drug courts or something, thatso often is that 12 steps is the only One that works.
We need multiple paths.
We need paths and we need, really, I think moretreatment programs that, that, have, medications for opioid use disorder or MAT or methadone, right?

(40:08):
That these are proven to work.
there's been research that strongly shows that these work.
And so why wouldn't we want to use these programs?
It frustrates me when I hear peoplesay, Oh, it's just another drug.
you're just going to another drug if you'reon Suboxone, or if you're on Methadone.
and yeah, that's the case.

(40:29):
But frankly, I'd rather have that person live.
If someone can, achieve sustained, recovery,even if they're taking, Suboxone or methadone, they can begin to live a normal life.
They can be with their families, right?
They can get a job.
They're not like Alex, circling the drainand dying because he can't get access to the drugs that could have saved his life.

(40:56):
I think he would have, really liked that.
For Alex, the thing that was, and I think one thingwe haven't really touched on much, is that I firmly believe that, we need to move away from a criminal justice approach, to a, public health approach.
if we think about it in a public health way,as opposed to let's throw these people in jail.

(41:18):
Because if we think about it as a personalexplanation, choice or brain disease, right?
Then what do we do?
It's pretty clear, right?
We take the substance user and we throw themin jail and then we shun the families, right?
They're connected with them.
as opposed to finding, differentapproaches that, that, that can work.
and, I think that, those kind ofstrategies that use medication, can work.

(41:43):
And I think in Alex's case, for him, it was all about Hemight as well die because, he didn't have any life anymore.
He was never going to be able to find a job.
and to be able to disabuse him of thatnotion, I think now I'd be in a position to say, actually, no, that's not the case.

(42:03):
look at these strategies, that you could do.
and, you could, start earning money,which is what he wanted to do.
he wanted to earn money.
He wanted to get a job.
He didn't want to be dependent on us.
he was 24, 25 years old and he wastired of being, dependent on us.
And we would have loved if he could have gotten a job.

(42:24):
we would have loved that.
It would have been wonderful for him, but it would be asign that, Sociologists call it transition to adulthood.
And he never was able to make that transition, AndI think if he had been able to, be treated, have his addiction be treated as a public health issue as opposed through a punitive, criminal justice an approach.

(42:50):
how different could his life have been?

Spencer (42:53):
Yeah.
I always like to ask at the end of our conversation,what do you say, would you say to somebody who is entering into or just realizing, or, is in this.
Carousel from hell.

Pat (43:11):
ends up in the same situation I am.

Spencer (43:13):
yes.

Pat (43:14):
I think this is where being a sociologist, I think, comes into play because I think that what I can tell families is that, you can assess the risk factors, right?
Because we know there are risk factors associated with this.
Are there psychological risk factors, right?

(43:35):
But if you see that your kid is somebody who's,You think it's starting to have problems.
Then, that's something that you want to do this kind ofrisk assessment in terms of, are there psychological issues?
Does it run in the family?
Is there anxiety that runs in the family?
Are there socioeconomic issues?
As I mentioned earlier, is there a problem with, poverty?

(43:57):
is there trauma?
Trauma is a big one now associatedwith, with, taking of drugs.
so I think it's also recognizing, as we talkedabout earlier, let me bring this back in here, is that if you ask, why are kids doing this?
They're self medicating.
So you want to think about what mightthey want to self medicate either a psychological issue or socioeconomic issues.

(44:20):
so I think that's part of it.
but there's also.
You need to recognize that kids are,impulsive and themselves risk taking.
And you have to understand that you cannot fully control it.
because kids are going to do this.
kids for generations have done this.

(44:40):
Older people have done this.
drugs are not going to go away.
There's it's fallacy to think that you can stop drugs.
People have always been interested in drugs,either from the point of view of, wanting to get away from themselves for a while, which is perfectly, we all do that to a certain extent.
it's important to recognize that,it's always going to be there.

(45:02):
and as a parent, I think it's important Torealize that you can't really control it.
you can't fully control it.
But it's also important to realize that only10%, the estimates are that only 10 percent of people who take drugs are addicted.
So just because one's relatives take drugs,doesn't mean they're necessarily gonna be addicted.

(45:23):
Many of them will age out right by, 30, and by 37 is thefigure, like three quarters of people will age out by 37.
and most people who do illegal drugs age out by age 30,And Alex wasn't, Alex was 25, but most of his friends, even friends who had issues with substance use, aged out?

(45:46):
They, successfully transitioned to adulthood.
So I think that's, important.
Recognizing that peers are important.
and if you think you can control your kidsso they don't have access to drugs, think again, because, it doesn't work that way.
and because kids are risk takingand, impulsive, they go to a party.

(46:07):
And some friend of theirs, says,Hey, you want to have this thing?
And they think it's Adderall.
They think it's cocaine.
They think it's, some other kindof drug that looks legitimate.
And it's not.
It's pretty close to 100 percent fentanyl.
And fentanyl has changed the map on all of thisstuff because it's, So many more people, and so many people who, aren't even self medicating.

(46:30):
They're the impulsive kids who arejust at a party and they take it.
and they end up, and their families end up paying the price.
So I think recognizing that, if your kid startsbecoming isolated or spending too much time in the bathroom, if they're losing friends, these are all signs that they might be, having, issues.
But, I think the important thing that, that Ifigured out with Alex is that I think he needed time.

(46:57):
He needed time to age out of it.
So I think it's just, importantto, to recognize the symptoms.
And if your child or family member needs,support, programs, then that should happen.
Right away,

Spencer (47:16):
thank you.
again, the book is Surviving Alex, AMother's Story of Love, Loss, and Addiction.
I found it an engaging read.
like I said, it was hard to put down and therewere times when it was hard to pick up because of the, the rawness that was in there as well.
it is clear, looking at the notes section, for example,that you are an academic, but it's not an academic tome.

(47:43):
It's a story,

Pat (47:44):
Yeah.

Spencer (47:45):
but it's got a lot of notes.
and I found, for example, the link.
I'll put a link to the, Mobilize Recovery,website, so that will be in the website.
And if you go and get the book, there's a wholebunch of other resources back in the notes that

Pat (47:58):
Oh yes.
Thanks for saying that.
The, there's a whole, appendix.
that has resources, but also my website, patroos.com.
It's a good thing to take a look at it because it updates.
I keep updating any resources that I had in the book,and I find new ones, and so they're all at patroos.Com, and there's a whole section on, resources, and whenever I find something new that I think is good, I put it in there so that people have access to a whole set of them.

Spencer (48:32):
thank you for that reminder.
Obviously, we need a link to that website as well.
I always ask my guests to bring some musicthat has been meaningful to you, the first song that you picked is Forever Young by Bob Dylan.
Can you tell us a little bit about why you picked that song?

Pat (48:53):
Sure, actually I got these from my husband because I said, Oh my God, you know, like, the music, I don't even think in

Spencer (49:03):
Not your thing, okay?
Did he
tell you why he picked him?

Pat (49:06):
yeah, I know why he picked them because we had them in, our, celebration of life.
and These weren't Alex's.
This is not Alex's music.
Alex was an EDM guy.

Spencer (49:18):
Yeah.

Pat (49:18):
But he loved it.
he did like rock.
He was very eclectic in his interests.
and I liked, the EDM reminded me of disco.
so I like it.
And Chip goes, what?
that's a noise, that's just noise.
So these are the three that he picked for the Celebrationof life I love Bob Dylan, But the words, are just.

(49:41):
even hard to hear, may you always dofor others and let others do for you.
May you build a ladder to the stars and climb on every rung.
May you stay forever young.
because he's forever young, right?

Spencer (49:52):
Yeah.
He is.
He is.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.
How are we experiencing recovery now?

Pat (50:09):
So yeah, so now I'm having just finished the book, spending years working on that.
I'm now trying to figure out how tobe part of a community of action.
That's really one of my goals is totry to figure out how best to do that.
And I live in DC now, so I feel like it's thepolitical capital of the world, and I should get involved with and I have been getting involved.

(50:35):
if you were a DC person, you'drecognize, Politics and Prose.
It's a, very, a well known bookstore inDC and I just did A presentation there.
that was one of my first, gettingout there and doing something.
And I had someone, who I knew in New Jerseycame and we did a, conversation, that's the way politics and prose does it.

(50:58):
And in fact, it's available on my webpage,not the video, but the audio is available on my webpage, that was really lots of fun.
and now, in fact, when I finish, here today, I'm goingto go up to Politics and Pros and meet, a woman who's interested in having me, work with her on a nonprofit.
So I'm interested in finding out what that's about.

(51:21):
so that's the things I'm checking out.
and I live in a part of D.
C.
where a lot of authors and artists and stuff live,and so there's a, talk at the library, and I'm going to do that in January, and so I'm just finding little ways to get out there, Tell my story, because it is a different story, than most people have about how to think about addiction, and what to do about it.

(51:51):
I'm really pushing a different approach,which, is like harm reduction, I just think that's the strategy that we should be using.
The conventional ways of dealing with it are not working.
We're leaving it all to individualsand their families, to address.
And we need to be much more serious.
We're losing too many people.
110, 000 people died over the past year.

(52:14):
And that's just, horrendous that we allow that to happen.
Too many.

Spencer (52:20):
Yeah.

Pat (52:21):
So that's what I'm doing.

Spencer (52:22):
All right.
Thank you.
I just got back from a two weekvacation visiting friends and family.
including, a member of my family with whom I havesome significant differences about how how we live in society, I use a lot of the tools that I learned in recovery about, not getting into things that really aren't my business, and that don't matter for the situation or the relationship that I'm in.

(52:57):
I don't need to go there.
I don't need to create conflict.
and, By doing that, we had a very pleasant visit.

Pat (53:07):
Good.

Spencer (53:08):
and I know that in the past when I have tried to, as we might say, stick to my guns, it has not been pleasant for either of us.

Pat (53:18):
Yeah.

Spencer (53:19):
and so, the same tools that to some extent I used to live in some semblance of peace with somebody in active drinking, active alcoholism, also work in lots of other situations in my life.

Pat (53:38):
Good.
That sounds like a good strategy.

Spencer (53:40):
It's been working.
It's been working.
and then my wife and I gettogether and we're like, Oh my God.
But, we do that in private, right?
And, and we set boundaries on, how much.
close contact we have, because we can have a certainamount, and then we have to step away for a while.
and those are all good tools for me, forliving, and in many situations, really.

(54:07):
But it, it was important in this one.
The other thing I wanted to talk about, inmy Al-Anon meeting yesterday, we were talking about one of the traditions of Al-Anon that talks about attraction rather than promotion.
I feel like that's a lot of what I try to dohere in the podcast is we tell our stories.

(54:31):
We talk about, you know, our life, our recovery, ourdealing with our surviving in the hope that, as I said at the beginning, somebody who's listening will identify with some part of what is said and maybe be
able to move a little bit more towards, I don't liketo use the word better, but a better life, a more serene life, a happier life, than what they've got now.

(55:01):
because they're attracted to the ideas thatwe've expressed and say, that might work for me.
I'm not out beating a drum tosay, this is what you have to do.
Because absolutely one of the things that I havelearned over and over again in talking with, listening to other people, in my various meetings and so on is what worked for me might not work for you.

(55:28):
What worked for you might not work for me, but if we canshare what happened, what we did, what it's like now, we can pick up those things that we're ready to try now.
And leave the rest behind.
Leave the rest,

Pat (55:45):
that's a good, I always like that.
and I think that's why multiple paths is avery positive way to think about it, right.
Because, This is wrong.
I tried to be very careful to not say, Ithink that the 12 step is wrong because I just found too many people that it worked well for.

Spencer (56:04):
exactly, but
for the people that it doesn't work,

Pat (56:08):
Yeah.
You got to find multiple paths, multiple other paths.
And that didn't really exist for us at the time.
And that's what's sad about it.

Spencer (56:15):
Occasionally, again, I'm coming from the Al-Anon 12 step approach, but I have had some guests who have tried other modalities of recovery.
We have not really talked about drug based recovery,and I'm not focusing on recovery from addiction.
I'm focusing on recovery from the effects ofsomebody else's addiction, but occasionally I, I've, I had a guest on a few years ago who participated in a recovery program centered in Buddhism.

(56:46):
does not have 12 steps, you know.
there's a number of other programs that are out there.
And yeah, I, Totally agree.
It's like essential to meet people wherethey are and not try to force everybody into a single way of living or recovering.
That's what this country is supposedly about, right?

(57:09):
I feel like there is some movement in thatdirection, but we do have a long way to go.
Looking forward on the podcast, I'mcontinuing, a series on the 12 steps.
I have a guest coming in next week to talk about step two.
That's where we are in the sequence.
but we welcome, feedback from, you, if you're listening,if you have further questions about the book Surviving Alex and what Pat had to say, if you have thoughts about Upcoming topics like the 12 steps or previous topics.

(57:45):
You can contact us.
You can join our conversation here.
Pat, how can people send us feedback?

Pat (57:51):
You can send a voice memo or email to feedback at the recovery.
show, or if you prefer, you can call andleave us a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
You can also use the voicemail button on thewebsite to join the conversation from your computer.

(58:15):
We'd love to hear from you.
Share your experience, strength, and hope, oryour questions about today's topic of Surviving Alex book or any of our upcoming topics, including

Spencer (58:26):
The 12 steps.
Yeah.

Pat (58:28):
You have a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us know.

Spencer (58:31):
And if you'd like advanced notice, so that you can contribute, you can sign up for a mailing list.
I've been quite dilatory in updating the mailing list.
You can send an email to feedback at the recovery.
show and please put Email in the subject line so that I canspot that as somebody who wants to join the mailing list.
The website is therecovery.

(58:52):
show where we have information about theshow, mostly the notes for each episode, which you find this one at therecovery.
show slash 414.
You can also listen to the episodeon that webpage if you want to.
don't have a podcast app that you use.
there are links to the books that we read from, thebook that we read from, that Pat read from, and some of the other websites that we talked about, and also include videos for the music selections that Pat chose.

(59:26):
Now we're around to, what wasyour second musical choice here?
I guess your husband's second musical choice.

Pat (59:33):
Oh yeah, okay.
the second one, was Wiz Khalifaand Charlie Puth, See You Again.
this one's really hard.
It's just, beautiful though.
It's been a long day without you, my friend, andI'll tell you all about it when I see you again.
We've come a long way from where we began.
Oh, I'll tell you all about it when I see you again.

Spencer (01:00:04):
Now it's our time to hear from you.
Elizabeth writes, Hi Spencer, my name is Elizabethand although this is the first time I've written, I've listened to The Recovery Show since I first came into Al Anon almost two years ago now.
The podcast has added significantly to myrecovery and I've shared it with others.
I recently did a long distance move and I am nowin a much smaller community than I was previously.

(01:00:26):
There are quite a number of meetings around town,but I find that most of them don't offer the strong recovery message that I was used to back home.
The emphasis is on the fellowship and notnecessarily the step work and service.
I was wondering if you know of any online meetingsin the Eastern Time Zone that you can recommend.
I understand each meeting offers its own flavor,but some meetings are healthier than others.

(01:00:48):
Thank you for the work you do.
You and the others who have contributed to thepodcast have made a huge difference in my recovery.
Kindly, Elizabeth.
I wrote back to Elizabeth and suggested themeeting named, You Are Not Alone, which meets at 7.
30 AM Eastern time every day, and youcan certainly find that on the al anon.

(01:01:10):
org website in the electronic meetings finder.
Doreen says, Thank you, Spencer andEric, for a well researched podcast on rewards and challenges in Al Anon service.
I believe this podcast was a response to anote I sent you on my struggles in service.
Listening to this podcast has been abenefit to my recovery and my self worth.

(01:01:31):
The conflict resolution kit is helpful especiallywhen challenging personalities are involved.
Speaking out is not taken well in today's world, butpracticing tradition 2 helps me know that I do have a voice.
Speak kindly and not with brutal honesty.
It's how I say it, and not be self sabotagingwith myself when it's not received well.
I'm taking a break from service work at the assembly level.

(01:01:54):
Practicing, learning, and talking to mysponsor with what I know and what I don't know about Tradition 2, Concept 3, and Concept 4.
Warranty 2 has assured me that I am okay.
These are the mainstays that are keepingme active in service and in Al Anon.
Great topic.
More will be revealed from my higher power.
He has not finished with me yet.

(01:02:14):
Thank you so kindly for all you do.
Hugs in service.
Doreen in Nova Scotia.
I believe she's referring to episode411 that Eric and I did together.
And I think, coincidentally, or perhaps not, that wasactually inspired by some challenges Eric was facing.
So, things come together, don't they?
I got a note from Bea, who signs her note with a bee emoji.

(01:02:39):
I found your podcast through a recommendationon the Reddit, r slash Al Anon.
It wasn't even directed at a post that Imade, but I am glad that I started listening.
I haven't felt comfortable reaching out to an in person AlAnon group yet, and nearly tried an online version once and then backed out, so I wasn't getting the help I was needing.
I've started way back at the first episodes from2013, and I'm only on the 8th one about resentment, but I've already found helpful and healing tools.

(01:03:08):
Some of it had been in regards to me and myqualifier, but things in the episode about choices, boundaries, and resentment have all resonated with other aspects of my life, past and present.
This isn't the kind of podcast I feel I would usuallyseek out, but apparently it's what I need right now.
Thank you.
thank you, Bee, for writing.
I did write back, and, let them know that I was goingto be sharing their note, and, again, suggested the You Are Not Alone meeting as a large meeting where you can be present, it has good recovery, and you don't necessarily have to participate if you're not comfortable.

(01:03:45):
We have a voicemail from Katherine.

Katherine (01:03:47):
Hi, my name is Katherine, and I'm a new listener, who just discovered the show not too long ago.
I went back through some old, episodes andfound them, they were really helpful, and also, particularly in terms of the mother of a son, 28, almost 29 year old son, who is my qualifier.

(01:04:07):
He uses an Al Anon term.
I'm wondering if there are any shows on beinga grandparent of an actively using adult child.
I'm finding it to be quite a complicated, challengingjourney and my individual circumstance is probably more complicated than just simple grandparenting because there are three children by three different mothers and he obviously has varying levels of involvement in those lives and I just find that I'm always trying to stay out of that.

(01:04:43):
The middle and stay out of trying to control,and trying to stay in my lane, but it's I'm just wondering if there is anything.
I don't know how to do it.
Thank you.
I love the show.
Thank you so much for doing it.

Spencer (01:04:56):
I'm a little bit confused, Katherine, about, you say you're listening on YouTube because as far as I know, certainly not by me, the recovery show's not on YouTube.
Maybe somebody has reposted them there or something.
I tried searching for the recoveryshow and nothing relevant came up.
So if you're actually finding it on YouTube, maybe youcould send me a link so that I could see what's going on.

(01:05:20):
Katherine also asked to get in touch withMonica, who had a similar situation going on.
I have, I think, put them in touch.
I have tried to put them in touch anyway.
and, that is something that I can try to do, If youresonate with a particular speaker or with somebody who sent a question or a situation and feedback, I can try to put you in touch with each other.

(01:05:45):
And then stand out of the way.
So, I don't know whether Katherineand Monica are talking, but I hope so.
Sherryn writes, Kia ora andhello from Aotearoa, New Zealand.
And I'm sure my I'm mangling thepronunciation of the Maori there, but I try.
She says, Just listening to episode 403,and you mentioned the series, The Bear, has representations of Al Anon meanings.

(01:06:13):
Mom, starts with A A, but later , oneof the main characters starts in Al Anon.
Then another Maori phrase I'mnot even going to try to mangle.
Which, apparently, she also says,Many thanks to you for your good work.
I'm thinking maybe that's what the Maori means.
If you could send a voice memo, Sherryn,we can actually get it in here correctly.

(01:06:34):
That would be cool.
thanks for writing.
I have not yet, started watchingThe Bear, although it's on my list.
Laura writes, Hello, Spencer.
I've been in recovery for a little over ayear and about six months ago a friend of mine sent me a Recovery Show podcast to listen to.
I don't remember the episode or content, but Iappreciated it enough to subscribe to your podcast.

(01:06:55):
Since that episode, I've listened to many otherspicking the topic as I felt the need to explore it.
I'm thankful that there's over a decade ofepisodes as it gives me plenty to choose from.
I'm currently attending both ACA and Al Anon meetingsand working the steps in ACA in a small group.
I'm on step four and I found that revisiting thepast in such detail was really causing me some angst.

(01:07:17):
Even though the step workbook suggestsgentleness breaks, I felt compelled to continue to work through extreme discomfort.
On my walk yesterday, I plugged into episode 397,Misti B's Path to Forgiveness, and that single episode gave me an incredible amount of insight and material to work with so that I can approach where I'm at in a different and more helpful way.

(01:07:38):
It explored a topic that is pivotal to recoveryin a very vulnerable and accessible way.
How we forgive others and how we forgiveourselves makes all the difference in our journey.
I'd like to hear more episodes on forgiveness.
As I mentioned, I don't listen in order,so maybe there's more I'll have to search.
I definitely plan to listen in number397 again, and I'm certain I'll get even more out of it the second and third time.

(01:08:01):
The work you are doing is so important.
Meetings are short and leave mewith questions I need to figure out.
I come to your podcast and I'm able to find thetopic I'm grappling with, and I'm able to continue to do the hard and wonderful work of recovery.
Please keep doing what you were doing.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Laura.
Thank you for writing, Laura.
I forwarded.

(01:08:21):
Your note to Misty and I think she was gonna writeback to you Again, I don't know what happened because I get out of the way and more episodes on forgiveness I reached out to a person that I met at
a conference who has a really Amazing, to me at least,forgiveness story, I've asked her if she would come on the podcast and we're trying to work out a time.

(01:08:45):
So hopefully that will happen in the not too distant future.
Sarah, who was on episode number 387 titledCo Crazy, writes and says, Hello all!
Big news!
The Leaving Crazy Town podcast is here with newepisodes dropping every Tuesday and Thursday.
If you or anyone you know struggleswith codependency, please check it out.

(01:09:09):
If you enjoy, please leave a review.
If we get enough reviews, we'llbe picked up for a second season.
So fasten your seatbelt, we're leaving crazy town.
Big love from Dr.
Sarah.
And she gives some links here to YouTube, toher own website, and to a , podcast website.
I was able to find it also in ApplePodcasts and some other podcast apps.

(01:09:36):
So I'll put those links in the show notes at therecovery.
show slash 414.
They're pretty short episodes, a quick listen,and, if you're struggling with codependency, which of us maybe isn't, I don't know, I Still do.
check it out.
I've enjoyed the episodes that I've listened to.
I have a couple of reviews here.

(01:09:57):
one titled, Frees Me of Shame.
As a child, perfectionism and shame and abelief that I was responsible for everyone and everything, especially things that go wrong, became deeply ingrained in my unconscious brain.
My life and family were crashing and burning.
Thank God for AA and Al Anon.
I go to in person meetings and attend online meetings.

(01:10:17):
I got a sponsor and work thesteps, meeting with her regularly.
I read the literature.
I downloaded the Today's Hope app and this one.
By these practices, I gain and maintain hope and clarity,and the freedom to see all of us through loving eyes.
My husband and I enjoy this app so much, andespecially like listening when on road trips.
The other day I played an episode, and by the time it wasover, the healing influence of the program was so dramatic.

(01:10:42):
I feel light, free, and energized.
I realized once again how shame just creepsup and grows invisibly, draining away my hope and a loving view of myself and our family.
That's why I love this show.
It helps me heal from shame and perfectionism, a negativeview and attitude towards everyone and everything.
Spencer, thank you for all your work to help others heal.

(01:11:02):
What a gift that keeps on giving.
With love, Dottie and Scott.
thanks Dottie.
Wow.
Another review titled Excellent Resource for Recovery.
Thank you so much for this podcast.
I found it to be a perfect addition for my recovery journey.
Your podcast was recommended by some of my Al Anonpals and I have been listening daily since then.
I recently started with episode 1and have just finished episode 36.

(01:11:26):
Again, thank you for all your service andsharing your experience, strength, and hope.
And that one is from Nerd62.
And that's what we got this week.
Pat, I want to thank you again for joining metoday, to talk about your experience, surviving the addiction and death of your son, Alex.

(01:11:48):
why don't we close with the, the last song that you chose?

Pat (01:11:53):
The last song is Stairway to Heaven, Led Zeppelin.
, this section that I like, there's a feeling I get whenI look to the West and my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts, I've seen rings of smoke throughthe trees and the voices of those who stand looking.
Oh, it makes me wonder.

(01:12:13):
Oh, it really makes me wonder.
And it's whispered that soon, if we all callthe tune, then the piper will lead us to reason.
And the refrain, And a new day will dawn for thosewho stand long and the forest will echo with laughter.
I like that.
Laughter.

Spencer (01:12:38):
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you, one day at a time.