When the Behavior is Too Much for Most of Us – 427

Spencer and Misti, with listener contributions, explore a challenging topic for those who have loved ones grappling with addiction: cutting or limiting contact. We hare personal stories and insights about creating and respecting boundaries to protect our emotional well-being. Whether it's temporary, permanent, or situational, the act of establishing boundaries with friends or family members...

The post When the Behavior is Too Much for Most of Us – 427 appeared first on The Recovery Show.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
that's with my mom, how I, sort of, said goodbye.
It wasn't, she's a bad person.
I'm going to say goodbye.
It's this relationship is toxic to my nervous system.
So my decision was for me.
Welcome to episode 427 of The Recovery Show.
This episode is brought to you by Mary,Tony, Anne, Hillary, Max, and Susan.

(00:26):
They used the donation button on our website.
Thank you, Mary, Tony, Anne, Hillary, Max,and Susan for your generous contributions.
This episode is for you.
We are friends and family members of alcoholics andaddicts who have found a path to serenity and happiness.
We who live or have lived with the seemingly hopelessproblem of addiction understand as perhaps few others can.

(00:50):
So much depends on our own attitudes, and webelieve that changed attitudes can aid recovery.
Before we begin, we would like to state that in this showwe represent ourselves rather than any 12 step program.
During the show, we will share our own experiences.
The opinions expressed here are strictlythose of the person who gave them.

(01:11):
Take what you like and leave the rest.
We hope that you will find something inour sharing that speaks to your life.
My name is Spencer.
I am your host today, and joining me today is Misti.
Welcome back to The Recovery Show, Misti.
Hey, thank you so much, Spencer.
Great to be here.
You, brought a reading for us to open with.
Yeah, It comes from Courage to Change,and it is page 22, January 22nd.

(01:39):
I tried so hard to learn detachment.
Living with active alcoholism was confusing,and the idea of detachment seemed vague.
The alcoholic in my life was a restlesssleeper who fell out of bed almost every night.
Feeling it my duty, I wouldalways help him back into the bed.
One night, after attending an Al Anon meeting fora while, I stepped over his body and got into bed.

(02:03):
Leaving him on the floor.
Triumphantly, I went to my next Al Anon meetingand told them, I finally learned detachment.
Well, they said, that's not exactly what we meant.
We meant detachment with love.
I left the meeting with a new understanding that I put intopractice the very next time my loved one fell out of bed.

(02:26):
When I found him on the floor, I still didn't helphim into bed, but I did put a blanket over him before stepping over his body and going to bed myself.
This, to me, was detachment with love.
Today's reminder.
With my higher power's help, I will keepa loving blanket of detachment with me.

(02:46):
I will cover my loved ones with it, whether ornot they struggle with a disease, keeping in mind that when I am dealing with other human beings, I am dealing with children of God.

The quote comes from Al Anon: family treatment tool in alcoholism. (02:59):
undefined
Detachment is not isolation, nor should it remainfocused on not enabling the sick behavior of the past.
Detachment is not a wall.
It is a bridge across which The Al Anon may begina new approach to life and relationships generally.

(03:26):
So today we're talking about having cut contact in someway with as the person who prompted this put it, Heather, said, a person whose alcoholism has become too much to bear.
I love that you brought in detachment to openwith because I think when we're cutting contact, there are probably a lot of different ways to do it that are different levels of detachment.

(03:54):
you, are bringing some experience.
I actually have not done this.
and so really going to lean on youfor your experience, with this topic.
So over to you, Misti.
Well, gosh, first I just want to thank Heather forputting the question in because it clearly stirred a lot for a lot of other people and certainly me.

(04:14):
It's definitely the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
this whole detaching with love from the loved one.
Do you want me just to dive in here, Spencer?
Let's just dive in.
yeah, the first question that you had put together,which this list of questions was excellent.
Spencer, thank you for that.
Who have you chosen to cut contact with ? But there aretwo people that I want to, there's many, in my family.

(04:36):
I'm the youngest of four.
I grew up in a family of a lot of addictions.
Alcoholism was the strongest one.
Both of my parents drank a lot.
and so the two people that I would like to talk about wherethis has been the case with is my niece and my mother.
The last time you and I did a sessiontogether, I talked a little bit about my mom and the journey I've been on with her.

(05:03):
Yeah, I that episode, number 397, the title is FromWounded to Empowered, Misti B's Path to Forgiveness.
Go back and listen to that one if you want to hear,a different aspect of what you're about to tell us.
Yes, definitely.
Well, that story has come full circle.
I might share a little bit about that in
Okay.
Yeah,
But it was about a decade ago where my niece letme know some things had been happening to her.

(05:27):
She was being abused and about a yearlater, My mother went into the hospital.
She had a tick borne bacterial infection.
so she was intubated.
She was on life, I mean, not life support, but she wasbreathing and food was, she couldn't do on her own.
I tell those two parts together like that for a reason.

(05:48):
When my niece first asked for help from me, she was 15.
She was my prompter to help me understandthat, well, if this happened to her, right, like, what happened to my brother?
And then ultimately what happened to me?
That sort of started to break down the denialthat I had strongly erected in my life.

(06:10):
I spent most of my life, my childhood and my earlyadulthood, constantly telling my family how great they were.
I was the one that would make all theholiday gifts that had all the sayings on it.
I was trying to create them into being somebody, right?
And so I thought back then thatI could love them into loving me.
And this journey has taught methat that's not how love works.

(06:33):
So when my niece let me know that that had been happening,I, I won't go into all the details of it, but at one point, Spencer, it became very clear to me that my mom knew what had been happening to her and hadn't done anything.
And then it ultimately became clear to me that shehad known some of the things that had been happening to me as a child and didn't do anything about it.

(06:58):
So the pain, the shattering of myillusion of who she was, was painful.
And so it was about maybe six months after I foundout about my niece, my mom was hospitalized and then she called after she, took out her own feeding tube.
She called to ask me to come help her learn to walk again.

(07:20):
When Heather talks about when you have to walk away.
For me, it's more of a boundary situation, whereif that's too much, then I have to take care of myself and create some boundaries around that.
And so my mom asked me and the little whisper in my ear,which I've come to know as God, said, no, you can't go.

(07:43):
And my nervous system couldn't handle it anyway.
I was still trying to process all of the things Ihad just discovered about my niece, my brother, and a little bit about myself, not fully about myself yet.
And so I, I didn't go.
It was the hardest decision I've ever made in my life.
And, you can imagine the level of, I'm not avery good daughter that was going on about that.

(08:03):
And so I didn't go and I sent my mom a text messagebecause I had to get off the phone cause I was in the car.
So.
Later I sent her a message and just said, I wouldlove to have a relationship with you and dad.
And it would require that we all be in recovery.
That was what I needed at that time for my own healing.

(08:24):
So it wasn't about my mom and her situation.
It was about me and what I could do or not do.
So that was my boundary.
If we're gonna have a relationship, we can have one, butit would require that we be, and my, my parents have, my family's never, you know, alcoholics go to meetings.

(08:45):
They're just drunks.
That's how they referred to themselves, so it wasn'tsomething that they were gonna be interested in doing.
So we just went a long time without talking.
And in that process of not talking, I realized that Ididn't have to go very far to not have contact with them because they never actually had reached out to me.
So all of this building up I had done trying to createa family, once I stopped trying, it was just gone.

(09:11):
And that was devastatingly difficult for a couple ofyears to work through and to allow for that feeling of vulnerability, which my nervous system was all over the place because we need each other as human beings.
And when you're a part of a family unit,the concept is that then you're protected and taken care of and all those things.

(09:33):
But that was never the case for me.
It was never the case for me.
Well, I don't want to say never because therewere things that clearly were taken care of for me where I was taken care of as a child.
but in terms of a support system to dealwith life's experiences, that wasn't there.
And so that's with my mom, how I, sort of, said goodbye.

(09:58):
It wasn't, she's a bad person.
I'm going to say goodbye.
It's this relationship is toxic to my nervous system.
So my decision was for me.
Yeah.
I think I see that recognition in some of the othershares that we'll come to later from other people.
That it is about understanding what I need, whatyou need, and then determining what boundaries need to be set in order to meet those needs.

(10:29):
The extreme boundary is somethinglike I'm not going to talk to you.
I'm not going to answer the phone if you call.
I'm not going to visit you.
And it's not necessarily all or none.
And in some cases it's situational.
I'm forgetting exactly who said this, but, asking,can I engage with this person at this time?

(10:55):
There may be times when I'm feeling centered andsecure and grounded, and I can have limited engagement.
And there may be times when I'm not.
and it really would not be good for me orthe other person to have any engagement.
You know, I started out by saying I don'thave this experience, but, one of my children can really push the buttons for me.

(11:18):
I'll put it that way, can activate some responses in me.
And sometimes I'm able to handle thatin a healthy way and sometimes I'm not.
There have been times when my wife and I are on the phonewith him and he starts going in a direction that I know is going to activate me and I'll get up and walk away.

(11:38):
I've done this actually in person as well.
That's not cutting contact, but it is honoringmy own boundary for both my comfort and I think that of the other people in the situation.
I just love that, that, that you brought it back tothe idea of cutting contact, that word cut and contact together almost feels a little bit less Al Anon to me.

(12:01):
My experience in Al Anon is it's.
It's just a day by day process.
It's just for today.
So my contact with my mom has shifted overthe years, but mostly it's been a card here or there, a text message here or there.
I mentioned to you that I started my life like sortof trying to make her into somebody that she wasn't.

(12:22):
And then once I realized who she'sreally been for a period of time.
my whole life, like my therapistsaid to me, there's nothing new here.
This is just the way it is.
that was eye opening for me.
It's like, wow, that's right.
It's just how she is.
This is just what she does.
And it's not about me.
I came to this desire, which you and I talked a littlebit about in our last thing of wanting to forgive her.

(12:45):
It was this deep ache to forgive.
And so I had that conversation with her whereI, not only did I extend forgiveness, but I asked for forgiveness because I couldn't come.
There was a part of me that justreally wished I could be there for her.
And I couldn't.
that conversation didn't go the way I had hoped it would.
and it was painful in the end, but.
Also very good.

(13:06):
Still progress.
It's still saying I extend this toyou and it's okay that you're human.
Well, recently I had another moment of, so when I, when Ithink of cut contact, I'm also thinking of let love win.
So let love win means, back in Marchof this year, it was her birthday.
So I'm always nervous about making contact with her.

(13:29):
So I go to my favorite spot, Herring Point, I livein Delaware and I make the call and I start the call off with just vibrant energy cause that's who I am.
You know, happy birthday and all the good things.
And then I asked her about herday, what does she have planned?
And as she started to share about my sister was goingto come and my heart just went further and further into my stomach and she told me about how she went out and mowed her own yard with the push mower.

(13:55):
And she's like, that's, that's a miracle.
and I just wanted to be able to bethere and help her mow her yard.
Like my heart was breaking as she talkedand the whole bike ride back, which I had to hurry to get back to that appointment.
I was saying to God, like, this is painful.
Like, help me help me with this.

(14:16):
Ease this pain.
What is this?
And what I heard back with wasnumber one, there's nothing new here.
This is just what she does.
And then the second thing I learned from thatexperience is that while love always needs to win for me, I need to be included in on that love.
So if I'm going to extend love, I need to be awarethat I'm going to be impacted by this experience.

(14:40):
So for example, instead of saying,What do you get planned for the day?
I could have just called and said, wishing youa very beautiful birthday, thinking about you, happy birthday, and been done with the call.
But I didn't do that.
I did a lot of other things that caused me hurt.
And so I'm going to fast forward you now, becausethe coolest thing happened very recently, and I've never felt so free in my whole life, as I do now.

(15:06):
I had, another one of thoseimpulses to send a card in the mail.
In Al Anon, I was listening to this womanshare about her mom and how she's got this beautiful relationship with her mom.
Sure, she's, you know, an alcoholic, but she, and I'veheard it many different times in many different ways.

(15:27):
And every time somebody in Al Anon talks about theirmom, who's Got these addictive problems, but still they have a, you know, they, they have a time with her.
I get mad.
Like I just can't deal with it.
It's exhausting for me because I just want to callmy mom and I want to tell her how great she is.
And I want to do all the things I usedto do, which is not what I need to do.
And so I had another one of thoseimpulses to connect with her.

(15:51):
So I wrote her a card.
I won't go into the whole details of this card,but it took me a couple of weeks to get clear about sort of what are my intentions with this card?
What am I hoping is going to come out of sending this card?
do I have any expectations?
And I couldn't get away from it.
I had some expectations, but I also understoodthat it was going to happen the way that it did.

(16:12):
So here's what I wrote to her.
I said, Mom, I think of you often andsend you loving, healthy energy every day.
As my mom, I want you to know that I am completelyaware of the many blessings you gifted me.
And of course, Dad, too.
While there is plenty to forgive, thereis also plenty to be thankful for.

(16:36):
When I notice the essence of youin me, I softly say, thank you.
I hope that you can hear me.
I love you.
Wow.
thank you.
And I meant it like that was, I had come full circle.
You see I'd started with trying to makeher into somebody that she wasn't and then needing to forgive that and grieve that.

(17:03):
And then into just loving her as she is.
And that is freeing for me.
Now she, she sent me a text message on Christmas day andthe text message was very simple, very short, nothing new.
Merry Christmas, you know, kind of a thing.
and she asked me about where I was at the moment.

(17:25):
And my inclination was to respond back withthat same, so where are you, what are you doing?
But I didn't do that because that wouldn't be complete love.
And so instead I just respondedwith simple messages of loving.
And I told her my last message to her was this,and this just, I mean, it just fills my heart.

(17:47):
It really does.
I said to her, hearing from you brings me great joy.
And she said, thank you.
And that's my last communication with her so far.
And so if something were to happento either one of us, I'm complete.
I'm complete.
there's nothing more that needs to be said or done.
She's not going to change, but nowshe knows I love her as she is.

(18:10):
And I know I love me as I am.
That's the journey that was made possible for me backto Heather's question, because I created boundaries that allowed me to find myself and to heal myself instead of trying to focus on fixing somebody that I can't ever fix.

(18:31):
This program teaches us that we can't fix other people.
I can't even fix myself, but I can increase my awarenessof my strategies, character defaults in this program, character defects, and ask God to help me with these things.
Ask my higher power, my innerwisdom, to help me with these things.
Yeah.
A little bit of summary of what I hear is needing toappropriately limit your contact so that you can heal.

(19:01):
I like that word limit, because it'snot cutting, it's not all or none.
At times that limit may need to bezero., A boundary is not a wall, right?
A boundary has flexibility.
A boundary can move to fit the circumstance.
Yeah, good for me.
that's the part I think that in my experiencehas been the hardest in my journey because it's harder to say what is good for me than, you know, I think we grew up in a society that says others before self, which is the opposite of the truth.

(19:41):
You also said fit the circumstance, which allows forthose boundaries to flex, but it reminded me of, my father in law was dying of cancer just a few years ago.
And I was doing a lot of eating and my mother in law,I mean, I'm pretty fit in general, but I mean, I was enjoying food for a good minute with that experience.

(20:08):
And, my mother in law kept pointing outthat she thought my stomach was getting fat.
And so I, I tried to set a boundary with her, Spencer.
I was like, listen, it is not appropriatefor you to talk to me that way.
Do not call me fat.
Don't point at my tummy.
Well, guess what?
The very next night she did exactly the same thing.
And so this is when I realized this was my teacher.

(20:31):
The boundaries aren't for other people.
Boundaries are for us.
And so I went, okay, that boundary did not work for me.
Let me try the next boundary.
What else could I do?
Leave the room.
Don't eat in front of her.
Go for a walk, go up to, you know, myroom that I'm staying in while I'm there.
There's a lot of things I can do that are helping me.

(20:55):
To create space for myself to feel safe.
And the more I do that, the more calmand peaceful my nervous system is.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
So you also talked about your niece, andhaving to limit contact with your niece.

(21:15):
Yeah, this is quite a story.
My niece is now 25 years old and a couple of yearsago, right after my father in law passed, a few months later, she wanted to come for Thanksgiving and I was just so excited to have her coming.
She had a couple of layovers to get to Baltimore,which is where I was living at the time.
I won't give you all the details of it.

(21:36):
There was a lot of drama before she even got on the plane.
But then she called me on thefirst layover for the first time.
I was hearing her voice in a couple of weeks.
Cause we were just doing everything on text.
Cause that's what she was doing at the time.
And this is where she revealed to me,Oh, you don't really know who I am.
I'm actually on a bender and I drink a lot.

(21:59):
And I was like, wait, what?
Right?
Because I didn't know.
I mean, I knew she had troubles with sexual addiction,but I didn't know that she had troubles with alcoholism.
And so Spencer, like, she was myonly connection left to my family.
And I knew for sure because Ihad spent enough time in Al Anon.

(22:22):
I helped her about seven years prior.
I helped her first get through high school.
by help her, encourage her, send her whatshe might need, those kinds of things.
I helped her to get into auniversity down in North Carolina.
She was living in North Dakota andI thought, okay, new environment.
She's going to thrive.

(22:44):
I mean, I really did a lot to help with this.
In fact, rewinding back before all of thatpart, when, when I first found out about what happened to her, I recorded a phone call with my brother telling me that he had harmed her.
And I did that because I didn't want herto have to go on the stand against him.
Can you hear a little bit of forcing of solutions?

(23:05):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
That's a felony by the way.
Thank God.
I got clear of that, but that you're not allowed to do that.
That's against the law.
recording somebody's phoneconversation without their permission.
Depends on what state you're in, but it wasa felony and it caused me massive anxiety.
All, all by the way, What I did wasn'tgoing to actually even protect her anyway.

(23:28):
She still would have had to go on the stand against him.
In the end he, he pleaded guilty and wedidn't have to do anything, but that sort of always trying to force a solution for her.
Well, she gets down to North Carolina and withinweeks, she was living with a man who was abusing her.
That was horrifying what she went through there.

(23:48):
And I was completely powerless.
Thankfully I didn't have to witness any ofit, but so now here she is on her way here.
Right.
And I already know that I don't have any power here.
I got nothing.
And so I send her home mid flight.
Oh,
So I tell her, stay in this airport.
We're going to get you a flight back.

(24:09):
And she says to me, No, I need you.
I need you.
I need you now more than ever before.
And she had never spoken that wayto me before, by the way, either.
I just want to break in here for a momentbecause I've heard so many Al Anon speakers.
Say, and then he or she said the magic words.

(24:31):
I need you,
oh, she did it.
Yeah, but you didn't pick it up.
I just knew it wasn't true.
Yeah.
I knew it wasn't true.
I knew I did not have what she needed.
I couldn't give her what she needed.
I was completely pa It was horrifying.

(24:51):
I hated telling her she had to go home.
It was awful.
We didn't speak to each other for a number ofmonths, but I'll tell you, almost two years after that, which was just this year, on my in May, on my birthday, She came to visit me for the first time and she told me two things when we went for a walk.

(25:11):
oof, might make me a little emotional.
it's okay.
She, she said that was the tippingpoint that got her into recovery.
She also said that she was angry withme and that that hurt her terribly.
That I sent her home, but shewould have done the same thing.

(25:33):
So it was hard to deal in the dualityof what she was saying, right?
This is not either or, this is like a both and.
It really hurt me that you sent mehome during my greatest time of need.
And, I would have done it too.
And, it helped me.

(25:54):
It was hard to hold all those things.
Cause when you're in the moment of just sendingher back, you don't know what's going to happen.
You want her to know that she's loved.
You want her to know that youcare about her and our society.
Well, I mean, my brain tells me thatshe's going to receive that most.
If I, if I hold her in my arms and hug her andtake her to a, to a facility and help her to get help and no, no, she needed to go through that.

(26:22):
To get into recovery, which she is now.
You know, I was so afraid when I sent her home, Spencer.
I was really terrified that if I,if I don't, she'll go away forever.
Like this is my last connection to family.
I will never have that relationship that Ialways wanted to have with somebody in my family.
And I thought she could be it.

(26:43):
And what's been really interesting this morning, I talkedto her then told her I was going to be doing this podcast.
And what's really interesting is it is abetter relationship than I could ever imagined.
that is so cool.
I remember her saying to me in the airport, therewas a part of her that was clearly still a little bit online because she said to me, Oh, this is how you deal with alcohol, she said those words.

(27:09):
And I was like, yeah, this is what I do with this disease.
I don't engage, And she goes, youdon't want alcoholism in your life.
I was like, true,
true.
I don't, I don't want to have that take away any of my life.
I want to live.
I want to live.
I couldn't do that and try to be somebodyfor somebody else that I could never be.

(27:33):
I couldn't do that.
I can do what I'm doing, which is living.
I like what you said there.
I can't be somebody for somebody else.
None of us can.
We can try but my experience is doesn't work.
I got some email from, some other people
. Yeah.
Ben writes, I no longer have arelationship with my stepmother.

(27:56):
I didn't intentionally cut her off, but I institutedboundaries in our relationship for the first time in my life with the full knowledge that she would likely stop talking to me rather than respect them, and I was proven right.
It's painful, as I have positive memories of herfrom my childhood, but she is also an unreliable, emotionally abusive, and narcissistic person who did a lot of damage to me, and could do a lot of damage to my kids if I let her into my life without boundaries.

(28:25):
My hope in instituting the boundaries was thatshe would take a moment to reflect, realize she cared more about staying in touch with me and getting to know her grandchildren than about being a martyr, and agree to what I asked.
But she didn't.
So this is sadly for the best.
Ben is setting a boundary to protect him and his children.

(28:46):
I heard a couple of things in there.
I heard this sort of, I hoped that she would, if I did, and
that's part of the trap of boundaries is, is when theboundary, the boundary really has to be for ourselves.
If I do this, then she'll dothat, is when I get into trouble.
If I set a boundary, and she adheres to it, then we're good.

(29:09):
If not, then I need to reestablisha different type of boundary.
Yeah.
He doesn't say exactly how he instituted these boundaries.
I Would guess he said to her, I need you to actin this way if you're going to be with my children or whatever, and she said, I can't do that.
Whether she said that directly or just stopped contact.

(29:30):
I can't tell.
But, it is a sad thing when that happens.
Something else he said in there was hetalked about, I think he used the word grief.
Somebody was sharing in an Al-Anon meetingthis morning, the five stages of grief.
I think the first one is denial.
Like this isn't happening.
And then

(29:52):
Anger.
their anger's in there somewhere.
It took me a long time to get throughthe five stages of grief with my mom.
Basically you get to a place where the last step isacceptance, which for me is what forgiveness also is.
It's like, this is just the way that it is.
This is the way that it was.
But the grief piece of it.

(30:13):
Man, because you really want to have theserelationships, you want them to work out.
And so coming face to face with thereality of it's not going to change.
It's hard.
It's just hard.
And it takes a little while.
Like somebody else in the program frequently says.
You know, this is a, this is aprogram of replacement, not removal.

(30:38):
And I really like that.
So it's not about removing the thoughts that I have.
It's not about removing the people.
It's about replacing those thoughts, replacingthe perceptions that I have about people's roles in my life, and also putting into place those relationships that are truly fulfilling for me.

(30:59):
Like, for example, when I think of Ben, you know,I wonder if he's got a set of people that sort of function like grandparents to his children.
For me, this coming Saturday, I will host my first ever,this is a little bit out of timing, but this is when it worked, Friendsgiving is happening this Saturday.

(31:21):
I got a few friends coming fromdifferent states to do this with me.
And for me, it'll be my first real sort of familygathering of what it feels to really family gathering.
You know what I mean?
Family, of choice.
Yes.
So if I can grieve my losses now I can create my joys.
I don't know how else to say that.

(31:41):
Yeah.
in Ben's last sentence, I see grief and acceptance.
This is sadly for the best.
We got a voice memo from Mary.
My experience drastically changing a relationship becauseof the part that alcoholism plays in it is with my father.

(32:03):
he is an active alcoholic and he lives pretty far away andhe does not contact me very often but every once in a while he'll call me and thanks to Al Anon I've decided not to answer most of those calls, especially because he would call me drunk and I don't need to talk to anybody that is drunk.

(32:28):
That is my boundary with him and I havenot told him this boundary, I have not told him not to call me when he's drunk.
At least, I don't ever remember saying that, butit's just something that I do for myself because I found that every time I talked to him I was upset and he would sometimes call me names and I don't need to subject myself to that kind of abuse.

(32:52):
So I did not cut off contact with him.
I still have a relationship with him.
We communicate mostly by text.
Obviously it's very limited because we have no likeregular contact and not much emotional connection.
I do plan to see him if I'm ever in the same area as him,but I don't plan to go visit him on purpose to visit him.

(33:21):
So that is my experience around being in a relationship withsomebody whose alcoholism is too difficult for me to bear.
Thanks for letting me share.
Thanks, Mary.
Again, she's setting a boundary with her father, thatshe doesn't want to interact with him when he's drunk.
she hasn't told him that, interesting.

(33:45):
But she says because of his reaction, whenshe has tried to set boundaries on him.
She has limited contact.
This again, it's not an all or nothing.
It's, how much contact is good for me.
Yeah, again, it's just coming back to the me piece of this.
That's what this program teachesme is to keep my focus on myself.

(34:07):
When I first came into the program, I would hearoften, what's best for me is best for we, which is sort of opposite of what we're taught, right?
So it sounds to me like she's doing herself a great serviceby figuring out how to have boundaries with her father I find it interesting that she hasn't told him that I think that that's great Self preservation on her part almost

(34:30):
I think so.
because what matters most is that she hold her boundary.
Yeah.
I mean really it's her boundary for herself and she's gonnabe the one to know whether or not he's Intoxicated, right?
Yeah, this is what my friend Barb wouldcall a boundary of self preservation.
David sent an email.

(34:50):
My relationship termination of aqualifier involves a child of mine.
It is somewhat a reverse termination as he terminatedthe relationship approximately six months ago.
Not me as the Al Anon member.
He is an adult, not living in myhome, but in my same hometown.
I've been in Al Anon for a number of years,but somehow the strength or courage or clarity to develop and maintain boundaries eluded me.

(35:13):
I simply did not possess the strength or courage tostand up to him and anxiously and obsessively dreaded many of the conflicts frequently long in advance.
Oh, that feels so familiar.
We still tried to do a few outdoor things together,but the last one ended with a lot of hostile and bitter words back and forth, myself as well as him.

(35:35):
I was informed that day I was no longer in his life.
Now that may or may not be true long term,because as we all know, there is a lot of drama involved in alcoholic relationships.
Nevertheless, these thoughts.
1. In a way, I admire his courage to make this decision.
Two, I did feel sad because I believe none of uswould not want to not have a relationship with any of our children or other family members.

(36:01):
Three, but oddly enough, I also felt a little reliefbecause the day to day anxiety of a phone call, request to do something, and my inner inability to let go of excess unwanted responsibility all began to lessen and lighten.
Man,
No kidding.

(36:22):
nothing to add here.
Painful, but what a learning experience too.
I love that word relief that came in at the end.
Yes, it's hard, and the relief is immense.
And for me, I've learned how to bathe in that relief . Isay, I learned how to, to bathe in it because at first, that stopping the chaos of all that was going on in my family, left a lot of space for thinking and left a lot of space for me to look at myself.

(36:58):
And I was really afraid of myself.
I really didn't like myself.
I thought I did, well, I always have lovedmyself, but the little voices were really strong.
When I stopped focusing on others and that noisequieted, the noise inside my head got louder.
And that, that took me some time tolearn how to address and be with.

(37:22):
Yeah.
Ashley left us a voice memo.
Hello Spencer and Recovery Show Family.
This is Ashley from Alberta calling in to share mystory about cutting contact with a family member.
Mine is a temporary cut of contact.
for two years I cut contact with my father.
I was around 19 years old and it was due to the results ofhis behavior around the divorce between him and my mother.

(37:51):
My siblings were still at home at the timeand a lot of his behavior was pretty terrible.
and it really impacted my brother and sister.
And so it was my way, of standing upfor them and not condoning his behavior.
I did try to talk to him.
I did try other, avenues of communication.
It ended in a monstrous argument, and soI just severed contact for a while because at the time that's the best I could do.

(38:21):
I grew up in that dysfunction.
They taught me well.
That's how my dad dealt with his siblings.
He didn't talk to his sister for eight years orsomething, so it is the only thing I knew how to do.
I have since reconciled with my dad . The relationshipis not the relationship I would have chosen, given the opportunity to choose a relationship.

(38:44):
just because he is who he is.
I do try to take him at face value as he is.
Who he is.
I heard once on this program, I think it was, someoneshared about when they had a family member call, they'd look at the clock and be like, Ooh, it's late in the day.
They're probably going to be drunk.

(39:06):
And I'm not going to pick up.
And then a few years later, more program under thebelt, they'd get a phone call from that family member.
And they'd be like, Oh, it's late in the day.
Do I have capacity to deal with them if they are drunk?
I loved this share.
It stuck with me, because there's times whereI don't pick up the phone when my dad calls because he's a very negative human being.

(39:35):
You know, like, everything is just horrible.
Everything is miserable.
He just wants to argue about everything.
Or it's always some sort of competition andI'm just not, I'm not interested in that.
So if I personally don't have capacity, I don't pick up.
But it used to be the other way.

(39:56):
Like the first example that, was in that share on yourshow where oh, I wonder if he'll be in a bad mood.
and like I would base my decision on conversationswith certain people around their status.
not around how I was feeling or my capacity atthe time, but around what I thought they might be in terms of their mental capacity and status.

(40:22):
And so I love the fact that I have transitioned awayfrom allowing people the power over my decisions of how I am going to answer or not answer a phone.
I've turned that power back inwards withmyself and allowing me to assess my status and in doing so preserving my serenity.

(40:43):
Because if I go, I don't have capacity.
I am going to choose to not answer the phonebecause I want to maintain whatever serenity I have currently Instead of giving it away to him if he's going to be miserable So that's it.
That's my share on How I cut contact.

(41:04):
I don't recommend doing it that way if it'ssomething somebody's considering doing Mine was like a middle finger cut of contact.
There I'm sure are better ways of doing it.
I have, to a degree, reduced my contactwith my dad over the past few years as well.
Because it seems as people get older, if they don'tdeal with their issues, they seem to compound, just like alcoholism, any kind of mental illness and mental instability and emotional dysregulation.

(41:35):
It does not improve if it's not worked upon.
I recommend that way more like slowly, not allowingconversations about this or not having conversations about other topics that tend to spiral out of control.
and accepting.
Who he is, how he is, even if I don't like him very much.
Thank you all and have a great day.

(41:58):
What I really picked up here, and I think I mentioned thisearlier, was this idea of the situation, the circumstances.
Ashley says she actually heard this onthe podcast, 400 and something episodes.
I have no idea when that was.
It switches from being about theother person to being about myself.

(42:18):
and I really like that she says, if I don't havethe capability, I'm going to choose not to answer the phone because I want to maintain whatever serenity I have instead of giving it away.
I really like that a lot.
There's such a great sense of personal responsibilityfor oneself in that share as I hear it.
Because she's saying, I want to keep my nervoussystem in a good place, and that will not do it.

(42:46):
So I'm going to allow myself the privilege of not answering.
yeah,
Which we can do with our own thinking too.
Yeah.
Thank you, Ben.
Thank you, Mary.
Thank you, David.
Thank you, Ashley, for sharing your thoughts.
I always ask you to bring music.
what's your first song that you brought for us?

(43:08):
Yes.
Down to the river to pray.
So I love this song because it's sospiritual and for me, nature is my reprieve.
Anytime I'm looking for an answer to anything,I go outside and I talk to the trees, literally, out loud, because that's what I do.

(43:28):
I like to talk.
The trees listen, and then I hear whispers.
Sometimes I don't, but often I do.
So, going down to the river to pray.
A river is a place where I would say that I both prayand meditate, which is what I need to get guidance.
So, praying is asking for help as I've heard it.

(43:50):
Meditating is listening for the answer.
I often do that when I'm swimming also, and if there werea river I could swim in, I would be swimming in that river, because there's nothing better in this world than swimming.
And Deanna Johnson, let me just say alsothat she was on The Voice, and this woman, I just remember the essence of her courage.

(44:13):
To be able to meet her in personand hug her would be amazing.
I just felt such pride in her courage toget up there and do what she's born to do.
Every time I go on a stage to do a talk or whateverI'm doing, I draw on that courage and Deanna is one of those people, so it's really beautiful.

(44:34):
Yeah.
And the video link that you sentis her performance on the voice.
right.
Yeah.
That is such a powerful, powerful rendition of that song.
In this section of the podcast, wetalk about our lives in recovery.

(44:57):
How have we experienced recovery recently?
I got to say I have been not inthe best health the last few weeks.
I was sick over the holidays.
I was sick on Christmas.
I was sick on New Year's.
Just a cold apparently, but a nasty one.
and then this stuffy sinuses has beenfollowing me for a couple of weeks.

(45:21):
I should probably call the doctor.
One of the big things I learned inrecovery was to take care of myself.
And so if I need to lie down, I lie down.
If I need to take a nap, I take a nap.
If I can't do something that Iwas planning to do, I don't do it.
Like Sunday.
I expected that I would be going, into mychurch to work with the high school youth group.

(45:47):
And Sunday morning I just said, I can't do this.
I just can't do this.
And luckily, We have a team of youth advisors and soI texted them and said, look, I just can't come in.
we were going to have an advisors meeting.
I said, I can zoom into the meeting, but I can't come in.
And they're like, great, get well.

(46:08):
The other thing that comes to me, is this questionabout limiting contact with family members.
and I talked about my son earlier that,I sometimes, get activated, by him.
And, you know, what I want to do is just retreat.
I'm just not gonna call or whatever.
He sent me for Christmas, a well thought gift, but itwasn't really what I wanted, and this is partly because my wife said, Hey, your father would probably like X, Y, Z. And he interpreted that as the thing that he sent me.

(46:46):
When I got it, I was like, what the heck?
what is this about?
and then I heard, that my wife had saidsomething and this is how he interpreted it.
He called after Christmas and he says, Hey,what did you think of the, the thing I sent?
And I was like, it's not exactly what I need.
I said, if I was going to do ABC, this would be great,but that's not something I probably ever going to do.

(47:14):
what I actually need is this, related thing.
And he said, well, can you giveme some like links or something?
And I went online and found a couple of sources and Iactually, went into a store and checked to see that the thing that I was linking to would actually work for me.
and so we mailed back the thing he had sent becauseI think he ordered it from somebody local to him.

(47:36):
And then he sent me a thing that will actually work for me.
And we had this back and forth.
We were civil about it, you know?
I did not do the, What the hell were you thinking?
Kind of thing that I might have done if Ihadn't really thought about it ahead of time.
I think taking care of myself is the recent theme.
last year was all about acceptance.

(47:57):
This year seems to be all about taking care of myself.
Well, I think, I don't know, Spencer, itseems like taking care of ourselves can sometimes feel like a full time job, can't it?
And getting somebody to get us the exactgift we want, you know, whatever it takes.
Well, gosh, I just am thinking about, myown, where I am in my recovery right now.

(48:20):
I think this is the best placeI've ever been in my whole life.
What I'm noticing that lets me know, I mean Istill have a lot of tension, I still have things, we'll just call it that, things that that I would like to be even better, but I will say.
My reactivity is much less than it's ever been.
I don't take things as personally anymore.
I want to give a couple stories real quickhere, how it's showing up in my life recovery.

(48:45):
So the holidays were just here.
And I do not prefer to go to my mother in law'shome overnight, but she came here for Thanksgiving.
So we went there for a night and my wife says to me, youknow, I know you like to, Do meditation in the afternoon.
It actually is very helpful for me.
I get a little bit of rest in the afternoon.

(49:06):
It helps me a lot.
Helps everything about my brain.
And she said, I got you.
We'll stay nice and quiet.
No worries.
Well, that's not what happened.
they made a lot of noise.
And in the past version of myself, I would havedefinitely made it very known to her immediately.

(49:26):
But I didn't.
I kind of just held on to it.
I'm like, this is something we need to talk about,not right now because I'm too annoyed with her.
And then, I'm in the back seat when that textmessage that I Told you about came from my mother and her mother and she were in the front seat.
My wife was driving, we were goingfor Christmas dinner at a restaurant.
And, yeah, you know, tears started to drop down my face.

(49:49):
They didn't know that these were tears of joy.
You know, like people who arealcoholics have, an allergy to alcohol.
My mother in law and my mother are allergic toemotions, so the minute that she starts to experience anything, she just kind of sucks the air out of it.
But anyway, my wife normally wouldreach behind and touch my legs.

(50:11):
She would normally be very loving toward me.
She wasn't, she like threw me atissue and I'm like, holy shit.
Are you serious?
So we get out of the car a few minutes laterand I'm just, I'm, I'm a bucket of tears.
And she says to me, this is not my wife.
She says to me, do you need to go collect yourself?

(50:34):
And I could have taken the bait of my brain on that.
She doesn't really care about me.
She doesn't really love me.
See, this is proof.
I don't really matter.
Instead, I just asked myself, what do I need?
And it wasn't to go be by myself.
It was to go to dinner with them.
I just kind of dropped into the moment and I actuallykind of felt like it was amazing that I can be there for myself and with myself in that moment.

(51:00):
Cause neither one of those two could be,but I will never forget that I was there.
We've had many conversations since then about it.
And she's now working on some therapy.
Because she doesn't know how tohave boundaries around her mom.
And she just lost her father three years ago.
I could have gone down these rabbit holes,and I could have gotten into arguments with her about what I need, and me, me, me, me, me.

(51:24):
which I definitely expressed the disappointment.
But her behavior is not about me, right?
So it's not taking it so personally.
And then one other really quick story, it's kind of funny.
On New Year's day, I wanted to get a membershipat the YMCA locally because they were going to be doing that sort of, if you sign up today, then you don't have to pay the initiation fee.

(51:48):
So.
I wanted to get it, so I asked her.
She loves doing little thingsfor me, so I'm cooking breakfast.
I said, can you do that for me?
She tries, yeah, on the computerdoing it, and it doesn't work.
And then she tries again, and it doesn't work.
And, she said, I think I'm just fat fingering it.
I'm like, whatever.
It's not a big deal.
I'll just call the YMCA.
And she goes, no, no, I've got this.

(52:08):
I go, no, I really I'll call the,the Y. No, I picked up the phone.
I started calling.
Well, she went up the stairs.
I didn't know where she was going or what she was doing.
Well, she was online fixing the problem andshe was setting me up with a membership.
I didn't know that upstairs.
I was downstairs on the phone setting myselfup . So So now I've got two memberships.
Yeah.

(52:31):
So I go up the stairs and I'mlike, hey, are you ready to go?
I got my membership.
She goes, what?
I said, I just got off the phone with YMCA.
She goes, I just got you a membership.
And then she lost it.
Spencer, she lost it completely.
She started screaming at me.
I'm like, I'm going to the garage, exit the stage, right?
I go in the garage.
She's still screaming.
I can hear her yelling, but I haveno idea what the hell she's saying.

(52:54):
Cause I know it's not about me and I don't knowwhat just happened, but to me, this was hilarious.
Now I've got two memberships.
And I've got to figure it out.
Not her.
I have to figure it out.
Right?
But to me, it's funny because if I'd haveknown she was doing that, I wouldn't have been, but she thought I was just being implicit.
I walked into her bedroom and I'm like,what, what's the story you're making up?

(53:18):
Cause we have this sort of abilityto have that kind of conversation.
What's the story you're making
up?
And she said that you didn't want me to do it my way.
And I was like, Interesting.
And why do you think I would care how you did it?
Because you wanted to do it this way!
And I was like, you know what babe, this wouldbe hilarious if you weren't so pent up about it.

(53:40):
And then a few minutes later she's laughing about it.
So in the past that would havebeen like a, I didn't do this!
You didn't do that!
Can't believe it!
Nah, that's hilarious instead.
Yeah, it's good to be able to have some perspective
Yeah.
on our situations like that.

(54:02):
Looking forward in the podcast, We'restill continuing with the steps.
steps eight through 12 remain to be recorded.
And so we welcome your thoughts,your experience, strength, and hope.
Come join our conversation by leavinga voicemail or sending us an email.
And Misti, how can people send us feedback or questions?

(54:23):
You can send a voice memo or an emailto feedback at the recovery dot show.
Or if you prefer, you can call andleave a voicemail at 734 707 8795.
734 707 8795. You can also use the voice memo button onthe website to join the conversation from your computer.

(54:43):
We would love to hear from you.
Please share your experience, strength andhope and your questions about today's topic of cutting contact or any of our upcoming topics.
If you have a topic that you would likeus to talk about, please let us know.
You can get advance notice, an opportunity tocontribute as, for example, Ben and Mary and David and Ashley did in this episode, and actually Misti too, by getting your name on the email list.

(55:13):
You can do that by sending anemail to feedback at therecovery.
show.
Put email in the subject line tomake that easier for me to spot.
Our website.
is the recovery.
show, where we have all the information aboutthe show, including notes for each episode.
That's mostly what we have.
And in those notes would be a linkto the books that we read from.

(55:36):
I guess it was one book we read fromtoday, videos for the music and so on.
We'll take a short break before looking atthe mailbag and our second musical selection.
What is that?
If I Were Brave by Janna Stanfield.
Oh, yes.
If I Were Brave In this very moment, it'soccurring to me just how much courage it takes to come in the rooms of any 12 step program.

(56:02):
I'm thinking about my neighbor and her realstrong need for community and connection.
And if I were brave, I would becoming into these rooms every day.
And from that, I would get a life that'sbeyond What I could ever imagine in the way of joy, connection, and gratitude.
So if I were brave, which thisprogram gives me a lot of courage.

(56:25):
So I had to get a bit of courage to come in.
But then once I came in, it's given me so much courageto be more brave in my life, outside of this program.
Every part of my life is taking off in a way that I couldnever have imagined because I'm learning how to work these steps and how to be led rather than forced solutions.

(56:48):
I thank this, this community, this program for my life.
Now, let's hear from some of you.
Debra left a comment on episode74, which was Faith Over Fear.

(57:10):
She wrote, I didn't even know that mydiscomfort and distorted thoughts had to do with all the fear I carried my entire life.
This podcast filled me with hope.
Thank you, Deborah, for that.
And a comment by RJG on episode 10, What is Al Anon?
Thank you so much for this episode.
I haven't been in program very long.

(57:30):
Had only heard Al Anon in passing all my life.
Never thought it had anything to do with me.
Your entire talk made me feel so much better thatI will be looking for an online meeting that fits.
I haven't found one yet, so I join in rarely, butthis topic has encouraged me to make a bigger effort.
Thanks for that.
that is an, oldie but goodie.
I want to thank our guests on episode 10for their experience strength and hope.

(57:56):
Sue writes,
Dear Spencer and Mary Thank you forthe podcast, shortcomings, and self acceptance, Step 7, which was episode 425.
I was looking forward to hearing more about this step,and it is one that I am currently struggling with.
As recovery goes, I have had times in my lifewhen I seem to be hitting on all 12 steps.

(58:16):
However, a recent event involving a close familymember who may face jail time for a DUI rendered a gut punch that knocked me back to Step 1.
I seem to hold onto the fear of whatifs that could be in the future.
And I lose sight of the fact that over my manyyears, my higher power has always given me the strength to handle situations as they occur.

(58:37):
Mary suggested that fear was not a shortcoming.
However, the fear in me as a result of the shortcomingof not letting go, trusting and asking my higher power to take this lack of trust from me, I must return each day to humbly ask that my higher power remove this shortcoming.
The recovery show is an amazing tool for me.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all thework that you do to produce such a quality podcast.

(59:00):
And I want to thank all your co hosts and fellowrecovering individuals who so generously share.
Sincerely, Sue.
Thank you, Sue.
Thank you for calling it a quality podcast.
that's what I aim for.
And it's good to hear that, that you feel that way.
And I did forward this on to Mary whowas a huge contributor to that episode.

(59:22):
Ezra writes, Spencer, I have a somewhatambitious suggestion, which is to present a series of episodes dedicated to Al Anon history.
This could be presented by using the 13 chaptersof Many Voices, One Journey as source material.
Thanks so much for your service to therecovery community these many years.
Sincerely yours in fellowship, Ezra.

(59:43):
that could be fun.
I have a concern about using the content of the bookitself in the podcast because it is copyrighted material and I don't want to, violate Al Anon's copyright.
I'm thinking one way to proceed might be foreach guest to summarize the contents of each chapter in their own words and then maybe have a conversation about what we each found in the reading.

(01:00:09):
This clearly needs some thought, but it could be fun.
Thanks
Rachel wrote hi Spencer.
I have been a grateful member of Al-Anonfor the past two years Last year, I started attending an open recovery book club.
They are mostly AA members in it.
It has been an incredible experienceto hear from both sides of the program.

(01:00:30):
I've learned so much from the strong,committed programs these fellows have.
I can appreciate the way they more readily call peopleout on the things they're working on, and really get to the root of why their behavior is the way it is.
It has also been huge for me to better understandand have compassion for my husband's alcoholism.
I'm wondering if you Or any of your listenershave had this experience of having a foot in both programs when they're not an alcoholic.

(01:00:54):
Has it ever gotten confusing because ofthe different ways to approach recovery?
For example, it seems that in AA, theyintentionally go through the fourth step fairly quickly compared to the amount of time it takes to get through the blueprint for progress.
The Al Anon service manual talks aboutnot using AA literature in our meetings.
That it can distort the Al Anon approach.
I have no intention of bringing AA literatureinto our meetings, but I do wonder if anyone could comment on a possible distortion to our approach when you dive into both worlds.

(01:01:22):
Thank you so much.
I'll just, respond briefly from myown understanding, my own experience.
First, when I was young in recovery, let's say.
I attended lots of open AA meetings, speaker talks.
Probably a hundred or more of themover a period of two to three years.

(01:01:45):
That helped me so much to understand alcoholismas a disease and to have both compassion and hope for my loved one and for their recovery.
I highly recommend that to anybody , in particular, anybodywho's struggling with an active alcoholic in their life.

(01:02:09):
But also if you just want to learn moreabout alcoholism and how it affects people.
I have read a good part of the AA Big Book myself.
I think that for each of us, we find what materialis useful slash helpful in our own recovery.

(01:02:29):
I've also read memoirs of alcoholics and memoirs of peoplestruggling with alcoholism or addiction in a loved one.
Those are not things that would be brought into a meeting.
I think from the point of view of the Al Anontraditions, we make a clear distinction between what each of us uses for ourselves and what we bring into an Al Anon meeting or an Al Anon event.

(01:02:56):
In those cases in the meetings, in the events,we want to keep the Al Anon message clear.
And that's what the tradition talks about.
And that's what the service manual talks about.
What I choose to do on my own is my own business.
Got a review on Apple podcastsby somebody who signs donna Jill.

(01:03:18):
The title, an excellent resource for recovery.
Thank you so much for this podcast.
I have found it to be a perfectaddition for my recovery journey.
Your podcast was recommended by some of my Al Anonpals and I've been listening daily since then.
I recently started with episode oneand have just finished episode 36.
Because of Swetha's comment about all reviewsbeing five star at that point I was tempted to select four star because of her comment that she'd be wondering where was the last star.

(01:03:46):
I just could not do it.
I empathize with her anxietyabout a possible four star review.
I too will keep coming back.
Again, thank you all for your service insharing your experience, strength, and hope.
Thanks Donna Jill.
And as to the stars, I am going to leavethat up to everybody's own conscience about how many stars you want to give.
If you give us a review or a rating.

(01:04:09):
And that's it for today.
Misti, I want to thank you so much for joiningme today for our conversation about, I'm going to say, boundaries, really, limiting contact.
And also I want to thank you for, the meditationthat you led us through before we started talking today, that I think helped center my intentions.

(01:04:35):
It's my pleasure.
And Spencer, thank you for all that you do.
And a special shout out to Heather for the question itself.
It's been such a great journey toexplore the questions themselves.
Absolutely.
I picked the third song This is by Selena Gomez.
The song is Lose You to Love Me.
And you can listen to all the songs at therecovery.

(01:04:58):
show slash 427, which is where the show notes arethe idea that for her to be able to love herself, she needs to break contact, break a relationship.
That apparently is somewhat toxic.
some of the lyrics here, I saw the signs and I ignored it.
Rose colored glasses, all distorted.
You set fire to my purpose and I let it burn.

(01:05:20):
And then I needed to lose you to find me.
I needed
to hate you to love me.
I needed to lose you to love me.
And that's the refrain.
I needed to lose you to love me.
It's a beautiful song too.
She's got a voice.
It really is a beautiful voice .. It's perfect.
The song is perfect for this topic.

(01:05:43):
It was the first one I found and I was like, yes, this one.
Thank you for listening.
Please keep coming back.
Whatever your problems, there arethose among us who have had them too.
If we did not talk about a problem you arefacing today, feel free to contact us so we can talk about it in a future episode.

(01:06:04):
May understanding, love, and peacegrow in you one day at a time.