245. Cultural Economies at the Greatest Rock Art Gallery in the World, with Clinton Walker (in full)

Clinton Walker is a Ngarluma/Yindjibarndi man and Traditional Custodian of Murujuga (or Burrup Peninsula), on the north-west coast of Australia. You might recall my conversations with archaeologist Peter Veth and the co-authors of Songlines, Lynne Kelly and Margo Neale. They all related back to this place – where the Songlines start, as Clinton puts it. So as my family and I headed south from the Kimberley at the end of 2021, Clinton and I met up to record a yarn for the Clean State podcast. That was a shorter snappier format. But on this particular hot summer morning, with so much at stake here right now, and so much to appreciate about what he’s up to, Clinton and I settled in for an extended chat. Most of it became ep.109, still in the top 20 most listened to on this podcast. But today, for the first time, is our conversation in full.

Murujuga houses the largest rock art collection in the world – around one million petroglyphs, some dating back about 40,000 years. The World Heritage nomination for this place is a shoe-in, unless it’s jeopardised by current industry expansion plans. All this remains in play today, including the alternate vision Clinton puts forward, as a former technician with a mining company here, who now runs a highly successful business called Ngurrangga Tours.

Part of this episode was originally released as the last of the Clean State podcast. You can access the old Clean State Plan, and its brilliantly formatted Summary, towards the bottom of the episode web page (below).

For more from behind the scenes, become a supporting listener via the links below.

Recorded 13 December 2021.

Title slide: Clinton Walker (from his website). For more photos by AJ, head here.

With thanks to the CCWA, auspicing organisation for Clean State WA, for permission to re-release this series.

Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden.

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Pre-roll music: Heartland Rebel, by Steven Beddall (sourced from Artlist).

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Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Clinton Walker.
I'm from Ngarluma.
In from Ngaluma, I'm fromNgaluma, I'm from Ngaluma, I'm
from Ngaluma, I'm from Ngaluma,I'm from Ngaluma, I'm from
Ngaluma, I'm from to go.

(00:22):
I'm ready to go, I'm ready togo, I'm ready to go, I'm ready
to go, eady ae for a m aYeah, people love it and I
didn't realise how much ofAustralians especially had an

(00:44):
appetite for this sort of thing,Because a lot of people realise
that they never grew upunderstanding Aboriginal culture
.
You live with Aboriginal people.
You live on a country that wasAboriginal people's country,
with songlines going back tensof thousands of years and sacred
sites et cetera, but peoplenever saw it.
They lived in a bubble.

AJ (01:04):
G'day.
My name's Anthony James.
This is The RegenNarration andthat was Ngarluma man m Clinton
Walker, traditional custodianof the incredible Murujuga or
Burrup Peninsula on thenorthwest coast of Australia.
You might recall myconversations with archaeologist
Peter Veth and the co-authorsof Songlines, Lynne Kelly and

(01:24):
Margo Neale, last year.
They all related back to thisplace where the Songlines start,
as Clinton puts it.
So at the end of last year, asmy family and I headed south
from the Kimberley, Clinton andI met up to record a yarn for
the Clean State podcast, thespin-off series from The
RegenNarration specific to myhome state of Western Australia.

(01:45):
Some of you may have had alisten.
It's a shorter, snappier format, but on this particular hot
summer morning with so much atstake here right now and so much
to appreciate about what he'sup to, Clinton and I settled in
for an extended chat.
So here's the rest of what werecorded together.
I've patched in my intro fromthe Clean State podcast here

(02:06):
first to help set the scene foryou.
Murujuga on the northwest coastof Australia houses the largest
rock art collection in the worldAround one million petroglyphs,
some dating back about 40,000years.
The World Heritage nominationfor this place is a shoo-in

(02:28):
unless it's jeopardised bycurrent industry expansion plans
, most notoriously theScarborough Gas Field proposal
currently being challenged incourt and elsewhere, with the
stakes running far beyond thisincredible ancient place.
But there are better ways to goabout things here and
traditional custodian ClintonWalker is uniquely placed to say

(02:51):
he was a highly paid technicianwith one of the mining
companies here but he ultimatelycouldn't bear the harm it was
causing his country.
He now runs an extremelysuccessful tour operation called
Ngurrangga Tours and is livingthe message that sustainable
industries such as Indigenouscultural tourism are enormously

(03:12):
beneficial economically forcountry and for bringing our
cultures together.
So join us as Clinton sits usdown on a very special part of
his country for that yarn.

Clinton (03:22):
Yeah, so hello and welcome to Ngarluma country.
My name's Clinton Walker.
I'm a Ngarluma man.
My family on my grandfather'sside come from the Sherlock
River, but I've also got strongconnections to this side of the
country where we're currentlyresiding in Murujuga, known as
the Burrup Peninsula in English.
Hip Bone Sticking Out in mylanguage, Ngarluma language.

AJ (03:47):
Thanks, Clinton, it's terrific to be with you here and
thanks for having me on Countryand thanks for meeting me here.
Let's bring listeners intoexactly where we are.
We'll tell a bit of the storyof this place, but where are we
and why is it?
special to you.

Clinton (04:00):
So this area, known as Benabarana in Ngaluma language,
but it's been known as HearsonsCove for the last 150-odd years.
It's actually a very spirituallocation within a significantly
spiritual place itself.
But right where we're sittingactually like for the listeners

(04:21):
we're right on the coast.
Yeah, it's pretty much a beach.
It's littered with shells.
Basically it's just millionsand billions of shells here, old
coral, all that type of stuff,and we're just watching a little
wallaby hopping up on the rocksright now.
Beautiful.
So it's an amazing place.

(04:44):
And I've been coming here foryears, you know, since I was a
young fellow with my family, myuncle and auntie, cousins, and
we used to camp here.
We used to come here.
None of this road that we droveon that used to be there, just
like a little dirt track wherewe're sitting now under this
shade with these bench seats.
None of this was here.
It's just all proper bush, youknow.
And beach bench seats none ofthis was here.

(05:07):
It's just all proper bush, youknow.
And beach, and yeah, we'd camphere, go fishing, catching
different things turtles andfish and mud crabs and my uncle
he'd teach us all about thisarea and he'd show us the rock
art that's around here.
And I remember when I was young,I used to see how my uncle was,
the type of things he used todo, what he used to talk about

(05:28):
and how he used to show peoplenon-Indigenous, including
royalty, you know, likeliterally the prince and the
queen, Really, yeah, charles andhis mum around here.
And I remember being out herewhen he was doing that back in
the early 90s.
I was like I don't know 10years old or something and, yeah

(05:51):
, I remember being inspired bythis man who I thought was one
of the greatest people I everknew Late uncle, known as Dee
Dee, not supposed to say name,but his Aboriginal name,
wurundamayaga, which meanswoodman, woodman.
He was an amazing woodcarver,used to make a lot of different

(06:16):
Aboriginal artefacts out of wood, but he knew the country so
well and all the stories and hespent a lot of time with the
elders taking us as young peopleout, teaching us.
You know our country and ourculture and that was an
inspiration for me to the pointwhere I decided I wanted to do
what my uncle did.
And now that's what I do I takepeople out and I show them the

(06:40):
same things I was shown.
Yeah, the same things.
I was shown.

AJ (06:43):
Yeah, let's tell some of the bigger story of Murujuga
because, as you said in your ownstuff, in material I've had a
look at, still not many peopleknow this place and what's here
in Australia, let alone furtherabroad.

Clinton (06:56):
Yeah.
So some people may already knowwhat songlines are, but
basically I'll go into that alittle because that'll help
explain this area.
But a song line is a series ofsongs that tell a story, and a
lot of people heard aboutDreamtime stories, but what they
don't realize is those storieshave songs as well, and the

(07:17):
songs basically they sing aboutthe story, but they connect the
story to landmarks, the storybut they connect the story to
landmarks.
And Murra Djunga, from a songline perspective, is a beginning
point.
It's where a lot of song linesbegin.

(07:37):
They start here and end up onthe other side of Australia, and
so as a place of significance,it's one of the most important
sites in Australia from acultural perspective, dreamtime
perspective, but not only that.
Because we have all thosesonglines that begin here, those
stories need to be told inother formats, and so the format
that was chosen was petroglyphsor rock carvings.

(08:02):
A lot of people say rock art andthere's so many out here.
It's like it's crazy how muchis out here Over a million.
I mean I've seen a lot andstill haven't scratched the
surface.
I've lived here my whole life.
I'll be 40 next year, so inthat almost 40 years I've lived

(08:22):
here.
30-odd of those years are spentin this area, learning about it
all you know.
Yeah, just when I take peopleout and show them, it's like
it's unbelievable for a lot ofpeople.
And then you tell them the ageof some things.
So like we've got rock art,that's, you know, made 100 years

(08:42):
ago or so.
That's the youngest Peoplethink 100 years is old, but in
the scheme of things it's reallyyoung, especially when it comes
to this rock art yeah, no, in away it's the fact that it's
still been going.

AJ (08:55):
It's the interesting thing about that.
Yeah, it didn't stop wheneuropeans got here.

Clinton (08:59):
Yeah, that's right and with the age of them, like we've
got, yeah, rock artists.
You know about 100 years oldand then you can.
Then you go up from there, thenyou start hitting a thousand or
five hundred to a thousand,then you start hitting a couple
of thousand and the next minuteyou're like in your tens of
thousands.
So you've got rock art thatwould have been made around

(09:19):
seven to ten thousand years agoand that's when we had one of
the biggest climate events inhistory of the world and that
was the rising of the sea levels, which inspired many stories
across the world to do withgreat floods.
Some people are aware of Noah'sArk.
Well, ngunnaulma people andmany other Aboriginal people

(09:42):
also have a flood story thatcoincides with that same time
and scientists now have beendoing lots of studies and they
reckon it happened between thatperiod that I said.
But the rock art when you seethe rock art that's to do with
that flood event, you'll getcarvings of, say, a kangaroo or
an emu or something that's aland-based animal that people

(10:02):
were hunting on the land, andthen all of a sudden, this water
started coming in and floodingthe country where people once
lived and their diet had tochange because the landscape
changed, so they weren't justeating kangaroo and emu anymore,
they started eating turtles,dugong, mud crab, you know all
the different fish species,barramundi, et cetera.
And so they carved theseanimals over the top of those

(10:25):
kangaroos or those emus orwhatever to to note the changes
in the landscape, in theenvironment.
And so when I tell people thiswas like 10 000 years ago, you
know, and and that ismind-blowing enough for them,
because I because when you goand you know, when you look at
the rock island, and you tellthem, yeah, all this water like
where we're sitting now, youknow, used to be 150km away.

(10:47):
It's coastal and they're likewhat?
It's like, yeah, my ancestorslived out there once upon a time
, you know.

AJ (10:52):
And that Australia, well as we know it today, was like a
third bigger or something.

Clinton (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, it was huge .
I mean already huge.
but you know, but yeah, it wasliterally about a third larger
and people find it so difficultto comprehend, especially that
are from overseas, let aloneAustralia, because they're like
they can't trace their ancestryback even a couple of hundred
years.
Yet I can tell you what myancestors were doing 10,000

(11:20):
years ago.
They were getting ready forsome great big changes.
And then we can tell you evenfurther back from there.
You know, we can go back 20, 30, 40, 50, 60,000 years.
I can tell you my history andthat's the connection we have to
this place as traditionalowners.

AJ (11:39):
No, it does.
For a Westerner, it boggles themind a bit that those stories
are mapped out in country likethat and last through those
changes, and that's a huge storyin itself, isn't it?
That the cultures have shiftedwith those massive.
When we talk about sea levelchanges today and climate
changes today, I mean 100 metresplus sea level change.

(12:00):
Yeah, this has been navigatedby human cultures before and the
stories are here for us to readif you like.

Clinton (12:06):
Yeah, and people are like I hear, like you know, I
hear all this stuff today about,um, climate change and a lot of
people.
People are either for oragainst it, or some people think
it's just a conspiracy theoryor whatever.
But the fact of the matter is,climate change is real.
It's happened many timesthroughout history.

(12:26):
We've all adapted to it ashuman beings.
The difference is my peoplehaven't forgotten about it.
We've kept that alive theentire time we've been here.
I get asked a lot of differentquestions, but one of the
questions I do get asked is thatdid your people war with each
other?
And I tell them no, no, notlike in other countries.

(12:47):
You know we had scam issues.
People fought.
It's human nature.
But in order for us to haverock art that goes backwards in
time and the stability thatwe've had to stay here and carry
those song lines and share itwith other peoples right across
the nation, that means we didn'tfight with one another.

(13:08):
Very often I think life was toocruisy to be honest.

AJ (13:13):
Well, this is some of what we're learning and about
Indigenous cultures globally toothat the idea of a day where
you work all day wasn't part ofthe thing I mean.
This is how the art ended uphere.

Clinton (13:28):
It wasn't working all day.
Yeah, it wasn't part of thething.
I mean.
This is how the art ended uphere.
It wasn't working all day.
No, rock art was done likebasically people's work.
You know their daily activity,especially at this time of year
in the summer where it's like 45degrees or 46 or whatever you
know, mid to late 40s.
Nobody's doing anything duringthe day.
You go and lay under a treelike a kangaroo and just stay
there all day until it coolsdown.

(13:50):
You know those Spanish neverinvented the siesta.

AJ (13:54):
Original people did so, speaking of navigating big
changes, europeans arrive.
We've got these places likeBarrett Peninsula the English
name, as you mentioned beforefor these places and it was
actually an island.
It's only been what?
60 years or something, thatEuropeans decided to fill it in,
and pave it.

Clinton (14:16):
Yeah, so it's been an island for thousands of years.
Before that it was a range.
But yeah, it has been an islandand it wasn't until Rio today.
But dampier salt back in theday decided they wanted to build
a salt pond so they couldextract salt from the ocean and

(14:36):
sell it as like a package withthe iron ore.
And yeah, they changed thelandscape.
They turned what was an islandinto a peninsula and it's named
after this bar.
I'm pretty sure his name wasjames, but don't quote me on
that.
You know you'll have to.
You'll have to go and have alook we could probably google it
right now, um, this guy, he wasa, a teller or a banker or

(15:01):
something in Robe and he was himand a few others.
They were murdered and no moneyor anything was taken.
It was really like suspicious,like there was no reason they
should be dead really.
But anyways, so he was one ofthese guys that were killed.
So they named this place afterhim but, like I said, it's known
as Murujuga to my people, toall Aboriginal people right

(15:23):
across the Pilbara all the wayto Uluru.
A lot of people know about thisplace and Murriyuga means hip
bone sticking out, and it'sbecause we've got this nickel
bay area and the peninsula partof it and some of the islands
they poke out in that sort ofnortheast direction, pretty much

(15:45):
northeast, and the way thatthey're shaped it looks like if
you were looking at it fromabove, it looks like a hip bone,
specifically a woman's hip bone.

AJ (15:55):
Such a feature, isn't it of the well, a lot of the artwork
too that we know today thatthere was aerial view at play
without drones?
Yeah, drones and airplanes andeverything else that's?

Clinton (16:06):
right and that hip bone sticking out name, looking at
it from like, as a woman's bodypart, like if you look at a
woman's hips, they're forchildbirth.
You know that's the way they'reshaped and which means women
are creators, they create life.
So this as a place is acreation place and that means um

(16:28):
, from a dreamtime perspective.
We believe that everythingstarted here and that's why the
song lines start here and thesong lines they're mapped out
right and and humans today keepthat mapping alive by practicing
our law and culture going out,singing the songs, putting boys
through initiation and in otherplaces women go through that and

(16:50):
and that that initiationprocess teaches those young
people the songs and as they getolder and they learn the songs
more and more, they start tounderstand what the songs are
about and that you're not justsinging about your own country,
you're singing about otherplaces.
That is someone else's land,where other people are from, and
that's the connection we havewith one another.

(17:13):
But as a place itself, murujuga,it's the birthplace of our
creation beings, it's where theycame from, it's where we
believe they created the earthand then they created the rock
art, the original rock art,which was a tool to teach us how
to preserve and record ourhistory.

(17:34):
And then they passed everythingon to us and then they left.
They went up into the heavensand told us, gave us a few rules
to live by.
You know, be kind, all thistype of stuff.
You know, like your TenCommandments kind of thing, look
after one another.
But the main things was lookafter the land, look after each

(17:55):
other and look after all thethings within the land.
You do all that stuff.
You can come and join us up inheaven, basically.

AJ (18:03):
And you ended up going through these processes yourself
as a young fella.

Clinton (18:06):
Yeah, yeah, I've been initiated and you know I we call
it a law law time and um, therewas there's.
Throughout my life I've goneout and I've, you know, followed
my law really, really, reallystrongly.
But then some years, like whenI was working on mining and
stuff and what would happen iseveryone else gets their time

(18:29):
off at the end of the year.
You know they go and leave andgo on a holiday or something
yeah wasn't the case for me.
I'd go and leave, I'd spend sometime with my family, but I'd
mostly go out and I'd follow mylaw and learn about, you know,
my history and my culture, and Iused to do that for like a lot.
And then I was like, oh youknow, I need a little break for

(18:53):
myself and my family and takethem on a holiday.
So I started doing a fewholidaying things a couple of
years here and there.
You know, just skip a couple ofyears from my law.
But I'd always go back, alwaysgo back, and this thing of
following the law it's what theelders call it, what we're
taught is following the law isso important to us as a society

(19:15):
because it teaches us ourconnection to our land, where
we're from, our history, givesus our identity as a people, but
also it helps us to connect toour neighbouring groups and how
we're all connected to themthrough these songlines.
So like we might be singingabout a place in a songline that

(19:39):
you know that we're taught,that we have to teach young
people, but that song might beabout Uluru or Burunga, mount
Augustus or something like that.
It's not our country, it's notwhere we're from, and singing
about those places.
Understanding the story ofthose particular sites where
these songs take you is soimportant.

(20:02):
And then, because you knowabout that place and you know
that song and we're saying, knowthe song, know the country, it
makes you want to go and seethat place.
But you know that if you wantto go there you can't just go
there just nilly-willy.
You've got to go and seekpermission from the traditional
owners of that area.
And because you also know that,where you're from, you know

(20:25):
your country, you know that songline, you know that story, you
know that hill, you know what'sgood, what's dangerous, et
cetera, et cetera.
So when you go into someoneelse's land, you know those same
things that you know that applyto where you're from must also
apply there.
So you know that you can't justgo here and there and wherever.
So you know that you can't justgo here and there and wherever.

(20:45):
So you understand that in orderto access that place belonging
to those people, you have to askfor permission, for status, and
then they'll take you out andthey'll show you all the same
things you would do with anybodyelse in your country.
And that was the thing thatAboriginal people right across
Australia practice is first ofall looking after country,

(21:05):
learning the song lines, thestories, taking care of each
other in different ways and alsomaking sure people are
following the rules.
But part of life was alsoleaving home and following song
lines and learning those songlines.
You already know the song, butyou don't know the country, so

(21:26):
you've got to go see the placein order to understand the story
more, understand the song more.
You know you can't just stay inone place and by doing that you
become more knowledgeable, moreexperienced, and then you get
to know your neighbours better,so you have a better
relationship with other people.
Once you do that, you don'twant to fight them.
You respect each other, youknow.

AJ (21:46):
Yeah it's huge how that's just embedded in the whole thing
.

Clinton (21:52):
Yeah, and so what I was talking about, that we never
warred with one another and allthat type of stuff, and why we
have such a strong connection toour rock, art, et cetera.
It's because we've got a goodrelationship with other people
and that we share all thisknowledge with each other and
that people don't want tojeopardise that, they don't want
to have a bad relationship withsomeone because it could mean

(22:16):
that they can no longer accessthat place and learn about those
stories.
That's how important country isto Aboriginal people and
songlines.

AJ (22:25):
And right now there's a World Heritage application for
this place.
Do you know where it's at?

Clinton (22:31):
It's gone to the national level.
So how it works is people haveto apply for it, the area has to
apply for World Heritagelisting.
It gets on the tentative list,so it goes to state level.
State government basicallyapproves.
Then they have to carry itforward to the national level.

(22:53):
So federal government then hasto then put that forward to
UNESCO.
So that's where it's at at themoment.
So that's where it's at at themoment and then UNESCO then
decide whether the place,according to a list long list of
things, items whether the placeis worthy of being in the World

(23:14):
Heritage Listing and so some ofthe things that are part of the
list.
The tick of approvals is theimpact of modern things on this
ancient stuff.
So right now we've got allthese gas plants built out here
and mining facilities and thestate government wants to build

(23:34):
more.
They want another fertiliserplant out here and all this sort
of stuff, and that couldjeopardise us gaining world
heritage listing, which issomething that should have
happened 20 to 30 years ago.

AJ (23:47):
It's as much of a gimme as any application that's ever been
, isn't it?
Unless something gets in theway of things like that.

Clinton (23:55):
Yep, and so that's one of the things that we're worried
about is that more industrybeing built is going to
jeopardize our application and,honestly, if we gain world
heritage listing, I'll be sohappy that people will finally
know about this place and howimportant it is.
You know, in terms of thesignificance of Muraduga,

(24:19):
there's a lot of sacred sites inAustralia, a lot of very, very
sacred sites.
The most well-known is Uluru,but Uluru's stories, part of
their songlines, come from here,you know.

AJ (24:31):
But yeah, as you said, there are other agendas at play here
and you know these agendasbecause you used to work for one
of the mining companies and youstill do cultural awareness
stuff for these companies.
Yeah, so you're well placed tosort of to be coming at this
without demonising anyone andyou're keen to do that.

(24:53):
You're always keen to make thatclear, yeah, but let's start
with that personal perspectivewhat your overall thoughts are
on the current ideas to expandthe gas processing plant,
explore another field offshoreScarborough gas project and,
yeah, the fertiliser plant andso forth.
How would you describe youroverall position on that in

(25:13):
summary?

Clinton (25:14):
What they're currently proposing.
I'm against it because I knowthat they want to expand here in
Mooran and, like I said, moreexpansion is going to jeopardise
world heritage listing, whichwill offer more protection, more
employment, because it'll boosttourism, etc.
Etc.
Also, the emissions thatthey'll be pumping out as part

(25:36):
of it, you know, has potentialto damage the rock art over a
period of time, you know, over100 years.
We could actually see it alldisappear.

AJ (25:44):
And that's aside from the greenhouse effect.
That's just direct impact ofthe chemicals, and so forth.

Clinton (25:50):
And that's my main concern, because this stuff has
lasted tens of thousands ofyears, and to think that it
could disappear in 100 years,that has me really worried.
And I'm not against what theywant to do, I just don't want it
here.
And we've got this agreementcalled the BIMIA, which was

(26:12):
written up by the stategovernment, the Barup
Maintenance Industrial EstateAgreement, which states that
they want to be able to buildthings in Murugan, which they've
done, but also there's an areacalled the Maitland Estate that
they can expand into.
So that's the thing that I wantto see is, rather than continue
building here, go to theMaitland Estate, where there's

(26:35):
little to no Aboriginal rock artor any other types of sacred.
So there's stuff out there, butit's not like Morro Juga.
So the impact is going to be alot more minimal.

AJ (26:48):
Where is that?

Clinton (26:48):
Is that?
A bit further south, it's aboutsort of 10 to 15 k's, just sort
of west of Krartha.
And why aren't they doing that?
They reckon it's going to costmore money.
But the gas pipeline.
So this Pertaman who wants tobuild their fertiliser plant say
they need access to the gas.
Well, guess what?

(27:09):
They've got a gas pipeline thatgoes from Dampier to Bunbury
and there's already gas plantsbuilt on those gas pipelines
right on them.
And so, pertman, if they wantto, they could build where those
other guys already are.
And so, pertman, if they wanted, they could build where those
other guys already are.
And then they're like oh, butwe want to be able to pump it

(27:34):
out and put it onto the ships.
Well, yarra already has thatfacility.
Why don't you just borrow itoff them or build one alongside
the existing one that they'vegot and just expand it from here
to mainland?
It's going to cost a little bitextra money, but you're going
to make it back over time andmost likely government is going
to give them a bit of incentiveanyways if they do that, you

(27:55):
know, because it's going tocreate jobs for Australians or
West Australians, let alone then, of course, the benefits
economically as much asculturally, of world heritage.

AJ (28:00):
So the state government's, or Australians or West
Australians, let alone then, ofcourse, the benefits,
economically as much asculturally, of world heritage.
So the state government's in aposition where it's win-win if
they can get this set up right.

Clinton (28:09):
It's not going to affect anybody really.
In fact, they'll all stillbenefit from it.

AJ (28:15):
And then there's the International Energy Agency
saying we should be building nomore fossil fuel gas and oil
plants, certainly coal mines etcetera.
How much does that play on yourmind within this as well?

Clinton (28:29):
Well, if we have the option to switch to renewable
energies and stop relying onfossil fuels, then I think we as
a society need to do it, and Isaw a list of I don't know like
the top 50 countries that youknow that use fossil fuels.

(28:50):
Australia is basically numberone or number two or something
as a country that utilisesfossil fuels.
It's crazy Like we talk aboutAustralia being one of the most
modern countries in the world,one of the greatest countries in
the world We've got such a goodeconomy, this and that we suck
at utilising new technologies.

AJ (29:13):
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?
Well, now we do.
I mean, in the past you'dperhaps say we were good at it.
Yeah, but yeah, we're stuck onthe ones.
We've got the incumbents.
You know, even Bill Hare, ahighly respected bloke, said
even gas will be stranded assetswithin a decade.
We're moving away from thisstuff really fast.
So to think we'd sink again andjeopardise this into those

(29:35):
technologies when we don't haveto.
I mean we are sitting here onthe brightest sunny day and we
know the wind's going to howllater, let alone the hydrogen
stuff that's been talked about alot, etc.

Clinton (29:46):
And we've got massive tidal movements.

AJ (29:48):
It's almost too good to be true.
Yeah, and that's to say again,I mean that's just sort of
surface level in a sense, to saynothing of the cultural aspects
that we've talked about alreadythat run so deep.
Let's zero in on a bit of yourexperience as an example of next
economy opportunities, if youlike that are coming off well.

(30:10):
But let's go to the start.
So you're working with one ofthe mining companies and you've
hit a point one day where youthink, actually thinking of your
uncle, I'm imagining what'sbeen invested in you.
You thought I'm going to headout and do what he did.

Clinton (30:20):
Yeah, so I was actually working for Woodside at the
time, but it was in that timeWoodside wanted to build a gas
plant out at James Price Point.

AJ (30:30):
The Browse.

Clinton (30:31):
Field, yep, which I knew because I'd spent time
growing up that way, because mypoppy was from Beagle Bay and we
used to go up around thatcountry when I was a young fella
, so I knew it was sacred places.
And then they wanted to buildthe site right and they had all
these negotiations with thetraditionalists and it caused

(30:51):
all the problems that we facehere in the Pilbara.
But the biggest thing for me wasthat they wanted to build this
plant straight over the top of asong line which they'd done
here, and it made me realiselike I can't work for these
industries anymore and get paidby them and support these things

(31:11):
, which I'm against.
It goes against what I've beentaught, and so I just decided
that I'll start my own business.
So I started deliveringcultural awareness while I was
working for Woodside as more orless a side business, but I just
wanted to get the education outthere, to teach people about

(31:31):
the significance of Aboriginalculture and sites and so forth,
and when I was doing that,people really, really enjoyed it
.
They learnt lots, to the pointwhere they said, oh, I would
love to do more of this stuffoutside the classroom, more
on-country stuff, you know.
And then I was like well, let'sdo it, I'll take people out on

(31:52):
country.
So I developed a tourismbusiness and I've been doing it
ever since.

AJ (31:59):
Did you get much support?

Clinton (32:00):
or you just sort of went and did it.
The cultural awareness that Iwas delivering at the time was
pretty lucrative.
I was actually making a fairbit of money from it and that
helped.
But I did have good supportfrom our community organisations
.
So, like our Aboriginalorganisations, they gave us
start-up funds and all that andsupported the business.
So they were really great athelping us out because they

(32:29):
could see the benefit too,because you know, they've got
these um agreements with thecompanies and they need them to
understand.
You know us and me and a coupleof others my sister that were
doing that.
We were out there showcasingngaluma heritage and ngi ngi moe
heritage, you know, showcasingNgaluma heritage and Njimari
heritage.

AJ (32:45):
You know we were getting lots of good support, Because
that's what I hear a bit, thatplenty try but fail if they
don't have that support.
Yeah, so that seems important.

Clinton (32:51):
Yep.
So overall community supportedwhat we were doing.
And then the general communityand you know these mining
companies et cetera, were verysupportive of what we were
delivering.
And then the tours just gotmore and more popular.
People who were travelingthrough the area wouldn't

(33:14):
normally stop in Karrathabecause of the cost of living
here, the accommodation etcetera, et cetera.
But then they started to findout there's an Aboriginal fella
going out taking people, showingthem rock artics.
And then more and more peoplestarted to like hit us up and
they'd come on a tour and thenthey'd tell their friends about

(33:35):
it and people that they'remeeting as they're traveling.
And so more and more peoplestarted to come and word of
mouth was really selling mybusiness for me, you know, yeah,
you have.
So you were the first I'm notthe first, but I'm pretty much
the first TO tour company,traditional owner tour company
that was doing rock art tours.
Obviously there were peopledoing it before me and

(33:56):
non-Indigenous and you know myuncle and that, but he wasn't
actually doing it as a businessbut he was just taking people
out.
And there was an Aboriginalfellow who had a tour company,
but he was, his family, was fromKimberley but he was based here
, married into the area and hewas doing some good stuff too.
So, yeah, like I saw thepotential of you know what's

(34:17):
here and that people want toknow about this stuff, and they
did.
And then they just kept comingand coming every year, coming
back, you know, and it got tothe point where I was doing so
well at doing the tours that Istarted winning awards you know,
applying for awards and justkept winning lots of awards,

(34:38):
lots of gold.
And then my name startedgetting out there in the
industry and now, like everyonewants to, know me?

AJ (34:48):
you know because you're a hall of famer.
Now, what is that?
That's true.

Clinton (34:52):
Yeah, I am I'm in the hall of fame of tourism, which
is amazing because I'd come froma mining background, you know,
in my working background.
But, like I said, like I grewup with such a rich culture and
I think people could see mypassion when I tell it that they
just just really enjoyed it.
And like I've got I've got acousin who works for me.

(35:12):
He does, you know, vince, thesame guy helped me find we found
a rock art together like he'sworking for me now.
And I got my nephew and acouple others who who come and
work for me occasionally.
But there are people out therewho see what I do and they want
to come and they want to workfor me, even if it's on the
weekends or on their days off.

(35:32):
I've got a lot of family whowork in the mining but they love
their culture, they want tocome and help out on their
swings and just get out oncountry.
Because that's all I do.
I just take people out and dothe things I would normally do
anyway.
You know, like we go camping,like I'll take people mud
crabbing and stuff, yeah, justteach them the things like I

(35:53):
would do with my kids, or I'vegot grandkids, you know, so the
same stuff that I would do on anordinary basis is what people
experience when they come withme, so they get into full
authentic experience of whatClinton Walker does on a
day-to-day basis.
You know, yeah, so what?

AJ (36:10):
effect does it have?

Clinton (36:10):
on them.
Yeah, oh, people love it and Ididn't realize how much of
Australians, especially um, hadan appetite for this sort of
thing, because a lot of peoplerealised that they never grew up
understanding Aboriginalculture.
You live with Aboriginal people.
You live on a country that wasAboriginal people's country,

(36:33):
with songlines going back tensof thousands of years and sacred
sites et cetera, but peoplenever saw it.
They lived in a bubble on asuburb somewhere where they
didn't get to see none of this,you know, and never had exposure
to any Indigenous people youknow around them.
Maybe a few here and there did,but the majority didn't, you
know.
And so people were coming up andthen they started to realise,

(36:55):
oh, we didn't even know youcould find bush tucker, like
right where we are now, like ifpeople were sitting here, I mean
you could describe the area ifyou wanted, but it's just like.
It's like a little car parkarea, barbies and stuff, beach
behind us and we've got somerocky outcrop just sort of there
.
But right where we are there'sbush potatoes, there's

(37:15):
lemongrass, there's berries overthere.
You know, there's um differentthings over here wattle, seeds
and stuff like bush onions overthere, and herbs and spices.
There's different things overhere wattle, seeds and stuff
like bush onions over there andherbs and spices on this side to
my right, you know, likethere's tucker all around us and
if we go in the water there'seven more, you know.

AJ (37:34):
Is that to say there's also?
I was just speaking to peoplein the Kimberley who have
developed businesses in wildharvesting like native bush
products.
Basically, yeah, Is that to saythere's opportunities for that
here too?
Absolutely.

Clinton (37:46):
You know, like I can't do everything, that's right.
I'm just I'm happy enough doingwhat I do.
But there's opportunities foryou know my family, extended
family if they want to get intowild harvesting and all that
type of stuff.
There's a market there for italready.
There is, yeah, and I've metpeople, chefs especially, who

(38:07):
just want this stuff.
They love it because the bestpart of it it's actually
uniquely Australian.
You know, these foods you won'tfind anywhere else in the world
.
You know the things that we gethere, like wattle seeds Our
green and gold colours in theOlympics is a wattle.
It grows everywhere inAustralia.

(38:29):
They all produce the wattleseed, but there's so many
thousands of varieties of wattleseed which means that each has
their own distinct flavour.
Just imagine if you're a chefand you're like I want to try
every single wattle seed that Ipossibly can and add that to my
cooking.

AJ (38:44):
It's exciting, isn't it yeah ?

Clinton (38:45):
you know, not like you can find that anywhere else
except in Australia.
Yeah, so things like that.

AJ (38:49):
In the one hand, you've got this swathe of economic
possibilities, but they're allbuilt on culture.
So you've got this thepotential to bring cultures
together to healintergenerational traumas, and
and I mean all cultures as wellit's just present everywhere.

Clinton (39:05):
I think that's the greatest thing about what I do
now is the healing aspect forboth sides, because now people
come see us and we're tellingour story.
Aboriginal people acrossAustralia I think in the
majority has had their storiessuppressed in I think in the

(39:26):
majority has had their storiessuppressed and because of that
people became untrusting,unhappy not unhappy but angry
towards the greater society,towards government especially.
And when people come on tours,you get to be yourself, you get
to show who you are, and thesepeople your neighbours, for
example like other Australians,come on and then they start to

(39:48):
learn their own history of thecountry that they call home,
which they never knew, and thenthey see it from the people who
are the custodians, the truepeople of the land, and it
closes that gap that the twogroups had, you know, and so
more and more people do.
For every one person I take out, they've got a network of

(40:11):
people who they talk to, so thatmessage then gets across to
that network and then thatnetwork has a network and so on,
and so it's spreading the wordright across, and that's why I
also was so successful in mybusiness, because of word of
mouth, you know Just from wordof mouth alone.
I had hardly any money, notmoney, hardly any money, but
hardly any marketing or anything.

(40:32):
And I think the biggest thingthat made it really good for me
was social media.
Really, yeah, becausephotography is my hobby.
I've always loved photography.
I think we've got such anamazing landscape here that you
chuck a camera in front of itand it's hard not to capture it,
it's true, but I'm actuallyvery good at it.

(40:53):
I'm very good at it.
A lot of people love my photos.
I get random people come up tome and they're like oh, you take
all those nice photos, don'tyou?
There you go, random peoplecome up to me oh, you take all
those nice photos, don't you?
Or they know me from my tours,but some people just know me
from my photos.
That social media part of ithas enabled people to see what

(41:13):
I'm doing, where I'm going, andmy following is just like I
don't have the biggest following, but I've got a lot of
followers and people see, like,when they're here in the
touristy, they see it firsthand.
But you get a lot of people whodon't you know.
So the social media is a wayfor them to like keep up to date
kind of thing, and people likethey tell me all the time, but

(41:34):
they're like man, I've learnedmore from listening to you on
social media and seeing thingsyou post than I've ever in my
entire life in my education.
It's like that's, that's crazy.
That's crazy.
You know, like that, forstarters, that you don't, you
can't learn that in school umgenerally still yeah, but it's

(41:57):
also great to see that peoplehave a way now that they can do
yeah, can learn.
I feel like I'm responsible now.
I've got a responsibility as aneducator teaching about
Aboriginal culture and country.
It's Aboriginal culture, butit's also Australian culture.
It's just that Australia has tocome on board with it now and

(42:19):
people are wanting and that'swhat I tell people.
It's like this rock art justdoesn't belong to us anymore.
It belongs to all of us.
You know, it's not just likeit's my ancestors, but we're all
living here now.
We're all going to look afterit.
You know, yeah.

AJ (42:33):
Just for the record, mate, I find that incredibly moving to
hear.
I mean, I understand whatyou're saying, I know it's true,
but I still find it incrediblymoving to have that sort of
welcoming, I suppose, and thatinvitation in.
You know it also struck me thatthe Chamber of Commerce in WA
is also frustrated with the lackof diversification of Western
Australia's economy from mining.

(42:54):
They're also saying it's two,all eggs in one basket and it's
costing other opportunities,it's squeezing out other
opportunities, and this is sortof just one case in point.
But it's interesting again tothink the divides that we might
think are commonplace.
Actually there's no dividethere.
We all want a more enabledsmall business, if you like,

(43:14):
based economy across the stateto go with the mining, but with
the mining in its appropriateplace.

Clinton (43:23):
And, yes, doing things we need need today, like
renewable energy, yeah, so forthyeah, there's so many things
that people could be doingbusiness wise, that they could
be starting, and you see a lotof small business here in kraft.
Actually it's.
It's a good place for it.
People are finding their ownlittle niches in things.
There's so many opportunitiesfor it.
You don't have to just domining, but generally it's like

(43:44):
one.
You might have a situation withpeople at home where one partner
works in the mine, which givesthe other partner the option to
do something else, and thatmeans they could maybe chase
something that they've beendreaming of doing.
And that's how I got into whatI was doing too, because I'm
split up now with my ex.
We were together for over 20years, but having that support

(44:07):
at home helped me to get mybusiness going as well, you know
, because, like I left a jobwhere I was making over $200,000
a year, you know, and it wasuncharted waters for me, you
know, I was like man, man, I'mjust going to give this a crack
and if it, if it works out, itworks out.

(44:28):
If it doesn't, then at least Ihad a go.

AJ (44:30):
Yeah, that was 10 years ago I'm still here, and this is to
say like when we talk aboutother opportunities, we talk
about restoration of country too.
Right, because there's such aneed for that.
Yeah, and not just for carbonback in soils and so forth, but
the whole kit.
There's a.
We've got a highly degradedlandscape, which plays into the
climate story too, and have youdone some ranger work too, or

(44:54):
you know people that have?

Clinton (44:55):
been doing the range.
I I know a lot of the rangers,um, I've worked with them and
they do an amazing job out here.
Yeah, like, like it wassomething that was sorely needed
for this area for a long, longtime, because I was out here and
if we go back like 20 odd yearsnow, um, I just come out, come

(45:17):
out of initiation, and I startedmy apprenticeship with rio and
I was working out here doing mytrade as a mechanic and at that
time the elders, like they wereheavily invested in guys my age,
you know, because we're thefuture in terms of our culture
and and so they would teach us alot.
But they, they realized I wasprobably one of only a few

(45:42):
traditional owners working outhere and they would put the
responsibility on people likemyself and say, while you're out
there, keep an eye on thesesites for us, because they knew
I lived in Crowther.
So they were like, go and checkup on the rock art.
So me and a few others, wouldyou know, but I'd come out, I'd
just come out anyways and justgo do a bit of exploring, look

(46:08):
at all the different rock art,art.
Just have a mental note ofwhere everything was just for
myself as well, um, and thenwhile I'm out here, like I'll
just go fishing, crabbing, gohunting, because you get
kangaroos out here too, you know.
So I'll just go do a bit ofthis, catch a goanna or
something you know.
Um, but at the same time I'dcheck up on my sacred sites,
make sure that people weren'tdisturbing them, and some were.
Some people were going andthey're graffitiing their names

(46:30):
over the top of rock art.
Really.
Yeah, like scratching theirnames or spray painting or
whatever.
Spray painting is all rightbecause it can be removed, but
when people scratch over it it'spermanent, it's there for a
long time.
And that used to get me angryand I was like back at that time

(46:50):
I was like we need rangers, weneed people monitoring this
place, looking after it, becausesuddenly, like a handful of us
are here.
And then when they startedMoraduga Aboriginal Corporation
and the ranger program, I was sohappy for that to go ahead
because I was like finally wegot people out here, we got mob,
you know, looking after country.

AJ (47:12):
Fire must be a big part of that too, I'm imagining.

Clinton (47:15):
Yeah, yeah because they were doing burn offs and stuff
as well, because I'd look at thecountry and I'm like, oh, this
party needs to be burned.
But I was too afraid to do itbecause you can get in trouble
for it.
But every so often I'd do aburn-off.
I hear a lot of this, yep, butit's because it's our
responsibility.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
We've got to burn country, we'vegot to maintain it, and a lot

(47:37):
of people don't understand.
I think in European historyfire is such a damaging thing
because people were using it inwarfare, you know, and so people
have really bad memories of it.
But in Australia, fire is atool that we use to maintain the
land.
It's like a gardening tool,basically, you clear out the
land.
Everything grows back nice,like some places.

(47:59):
You burn off, you get differentfoods come back you, you know,
like bush, tomatoes and thingslike that.
Or you burn in another area,like some plants need the fire
or they need the smoke togerminate, you know, like they
can't do it otherwise.
So this country is.
They call it sunburned land fora reason.
You know, so we've got to burnit.

(48:20):
It's part of the way of theland.
And they call it a sunburnedland for a reason.
You know, so we've got to burnit.
It's part of the way of theland.
And if we don't have a fire,regular fires that's when we get
the major bushfires, which weknow how destructive they can be
.
We've seen the damage.

AJ (48:33):
It's happening right now in several parts of the country.

Clinton (48:35):
Yeah, and then those big fires happen because
nobody's maintaining the land,nobody's doing the burn-offs.
And now I think Australia as asociety is starting to realise
we need burn-offs.
It's so important because, like, if you live in a forested area
, you've got all that old leavesand timber and everything

(48:55):
falling down and it just buildsup.
And it builds up.
If you're not burning it off,you've got more and more fuel
just caking and then it justthen.
It's unstoppable yeah.

AJ (49:04):
There's fire and then there's fire.
I mean just listening to youtalk about the nuance.
There's multifaceted thingsthat you're tending with fire.
It's like to get smoke thereand flames there and don't burn
there.
Yeah, there's a cultural art toit.
Yeah, as distinct as some ofthe prescribed burning regimes,
meeting quotas and so forth thatget a bit big and problematic

(49:25):
that we know of down south yeaheven up north, I think, where
I've just been.
Yeah, we then end up justmaking things worse.

Clinton (49:31):
It's not the right kind of fire no, I was actually on a
couple of tours um this yearand we've had indigenous rangers
going out and doing properburn-offs.
And as we were driving through,like we're slowing down where
the fires are and the touristsare getting like really anxious
about it, and I was like no,don't worry.

(49:52):
I said this is a cool burn.
See those mob there, they'rewalking amongst the fire while
they're burning.
And because what they're doingis a coal fire is not going to
do any damage, they're not in nodanger.
And I said and this is how youtell I was showing them.
You know, it's like see how thefire.
It burns the base of the treesbut it doesn't burn the leaves.
That's a cool fire.

(50:12):
And they're watching andobserving for themselves.
And then they realize, oh,you're right.
It's like, yeah, see, like youcan walk along this fire and you
won't unless you accidentallyfall in it.
I'll tell you you won't getburnt Because I'll shout.
And I'm like watch those guys,watch how they walk, where they
go and how they burn.
It's like they don't even.
It's not even an issue at all.

(50:33):
And then they realize, oh, yeah, you're right.
It's like, yeah, see, that's aproper fire, that's a proper
burn.
I said but it's when we get thebig bushfires, those are the
dangerous.
That's when I won't stop inthat situation, you know.
And and then they come to arealization like, actually, this
is really important, that thisstuff needs to happen, you know.
But some people need to beshown for themselves, you know,

(50:55):
to be able to, to witness it inaction, like they did at that
time.
I think it gave them a lot ofgood insight into why things
need to be done the way they'redone.

AJ (51:04):
Yeah, so again says something about actually getting
on country to see it, not justhearing about it.
Yeah, there's a few legislativechanges in the wings at the
moment.
One's a cultural heritagereform bill.
I sort of can't leave thisconversation without talking
about a few of these things.
They're so significant, andthis one's really getting big on

(51:25):
the government in the sensethat they've come with something
that desperately needed tohappen, especially in light of
Djuggen Gorge and the explosionof the 46,000-year heritage site
.
But we know even here thethousands of sites that have
been lost before we've got tothis point here at Muraduga.
So it's vital, but it's fallenshort.

(51:48):
It's still got ministerial vetorights, if you like, while
those are denied to native titleholders.
What's your position on that?

Clinton (51:55):
Yeah, I think.
I just think they're being, inmy my opinion, a bit tokenistic
about it all making changes, butit's not really changes um yeah
, and if you want real change,get the Aboriginal Heritage Act

(52:17):
and make it a carbon copy of theWest Australian Heritage Act.
Really, yep.
What's the implication of that?
Because copy of the.

AJ (52:21):
West Australian Heritage Act .
Really, yep?
What's the implication of that?

Clinton (52:23):
Because anything within the West Australian Heritage
Act that is heritage listed youcan't touch.
For example, in the South West,in Perth itself, there's some
old sewage right in the city,over 100 years old, and now it's
been heritage listed.
And in order to go and doanything to that sewage you've

(52:48):
got to jump through hoops afterhoops after hoops.

AJ (52:51):
I love that that's true for our sewer.
Yes, but not true for here, yep.

Clinton (52:56):
A sewage pipe yes, you know what I'm talking about,
literally, surely we can do this.
Yes, you know what I'm talkingabout, literally, surely we can
do this so that sewage pipewhich we know what goes down in
sewage pipes has way moreprotection than 40-odd
thousand-year-old rock art.
This is the comparison that I'mmaking between the two bills,

(53:20):
the two acts, two legislation.
That's the difference.

AJ (53:25):
That's really interesting and there is a massive spread of
support across cultures, acrossindustries, across fields of
study.
That recently released an openletter to that effect.
So far no movement, but we'llhope there will be on that.
Well, there has to be, yeah, onthat front.
Then there's a book that justcame to my attention, springing

(53:48):
from the native title success,by paul cleary, title fight have
you come across this book yet?

Clinton (53:54):
documenting no, I haven't, I haven't read it yet.
Um, it's got my uncle in there,michael Woodley, and like I
think what he's done as atraditional owner going against
mining magnate being AndrewForrest, like you can see that

(54:17):
that's a really big thing, thatto beat them in court like
that's massive and that's goodfor the thing, that to beat them
in court Huge, like that'smassive, yeah, and that's good
for the people, good for country, and like I fully support
things like that.
But, yeah, I haven't had achance to read the actual book
yet, which I'm going to readanyways, because I like reading

(54:37):
things anyways and just findingout all the details.

AJ (54:40):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's what the little I've read so far
, what stands out.
You know, it's really distinctfrom the flavour of our
conversation now where you'recharting ways for people to come
together, for win-win scenariosto occur, all that sort of
stuff.
But the Fortescue Mining andAndrew Forrest there was so much
shenanigans in what they weretrying to do.

(55:02):
It just seemed so needless.
It was costing them more at thesame time and, of course,
costing a hell of a lot for theculture.
Trying to establish nativetitle and everything that that
should mean.
It just seems.
I'm endlessly curious about itin the sense of why bother, you
know why, even not meet juststandard industry benchmarks,
which aren't that great anyway,but even go hard to try and

(55:25):
avoid those?
I don't really understand.

Clinton (55:28):
Yeah, I think mining companies, these major mining
companies, these are hugeorganisations worth billions and
billions.
I think they have aresponsibility in their
operations to go above andbeyond what is the norm and they

(55:48):
haven't been doing that.
You know.
We know that for a fact.
But here's an opportunity forthem now.
You know Because, like us, asAboriginal people in this region
, ultimately our motivations andour motives and our goals is to
look after country.
But we understand we live in amodern day and that these things

(56:12):
they bring benefits to all thepeople, including ourselves.
So it's not that we want tostop mining.
We're not about stopping mining.
We just don't want peopledestroying our sites, our
heritage, sites that aresignificant to us, that are part
of our songlines.
That's what matters to us, andif they can build a mine that

(56:33):
doesn't impact on any of thosethings, then that's great.
But I think mining companiescan go above and beyond
government and don't just dothings for the sake of doing it
or for a media release oranything like that.
Go and be genuine.
I've worked for these companies.
I've worked for all of them.
I've worked in mining, oil andgas and construction here in the

(56:55):
Pilbara and I know how they alloperate.
I know what they're about.
I've worked in different partsof organisations.
So I know I've got insight, youknow, and because they were
doing this and doing that,that's why I left those
companies so I could educatemore.
And now they're actually seeingwhat I'm doing as a really

(57:16):
positive thing and that they'reengaging me.
You know, like Rio after theChukan Gordian, like I've been
engaged with them throughout thewhole year, basically working
with them, their employees, youknow their management teams and
educating them and had suchreally good feedback.
And you know the people who areon the ground, like I know the

(57:39):
education of Aboriginal cultureis limited and then they come
out with us and then they gain areally good insight into why
these things are important, whywhat happened, there was such a
tragedy, and they're like, yeah,man, we want our kids to know
all these things, we want themto grow up seeing these sites,
like, yeah, that's how everyoneshould be in this country and

(58:02):
you guys work, it's not onlythem.
Like it's not a this, I'm, usand them scenario, because my
family work in mining you know,that's right.
I'm not against mining, like Isaid, like it's supporting a lot
of my people, it's just that.
Be responsible.
Yeah, look after country.
You know they didn't have toblow up that site?

AJ (58:22):
No, that's it.
They blew it up in spite ofknowing it's the killer.
And that's why there was such abacklash.
Yes, have they learned, do youreckon?

Clinton (58:31):
They're definitely learning.
They're in the process of Yep,they're in the process of
learning.
They understand now, I thinksenior managers, it's not so
much senior managers, it's notso much, no, that's it.
Yeah, decision makers if thedecision makers are finally
realizing, because they're alsocopying it from their
shareholders, yeah, exactly, youknow shareholders are like whoa
, this, you know, just gonnaimpact not only the shares but

(58:54):
just morally, like they've gotkids and stuff too.
It's like, oh, you own a pieceof a company that destroyed some
of the oldest heritage in theplanet.
You know, like no one wants tobe a piece of a company that
destroyed some of the oldestheritage on the planet.
You know, Like no one wants tobe a part of that.
You know.

AJ (59:06):
Exactly.
So, when you say they need totake more responsibility.
That responsibility I mean withthe Cultural Heritage Reform
Bill.
It's an example where it couldkick in.
No, where they almost give notpermission but sort of some kind
of licence to the stategovernment.
To no, you really should begiving native title holders, for
example, final say on whatsites need to be avoided with

(59:31):
these activities.
It seems to be an example where, if they did that, I can
imagine it would change things.

Clinton (59:37):
Yeah, it would absolutely change it, especially
with their relationship withtraditional owners, For example,
if they knew about the DjuganGoyd like hindsight is such a
beautiful thing when you know.
But at the time they could havesaid, like we understand, this
is a really important site.
What's 130 million, you know?
Whatever it was worth thatparticular area.

(59:58):
Or they could have been likewe'll take 70% of the area away
from where the actual gorge was,We'll go a bit more back this
way if they had to, and we'llpreserve that area, or let's
just not touch it.
There's so many things theycould have done.
Like they say shoulda, coulda,wouldas.

(01:00:19):
But I think now they realizethey're stuffed up and I know
something like that ain't goingto happen again, especially
within rio.
But it's the other companiestoo that yeah.
Yeah, we got to also be mindfulbecause remember what people,
what the general public, have torealize yeah, rio did the deed,

(01:00:41):
but it's the government thatapproved it.
They were well within theirlegal rights to do what they did
.
Yeah, that's why no one'sprosecuted.
But morally, we know what theydid was wrong.
And that's where we've got tostart making people and
companies and our own governmentas voters, voters accountable

(01:01:03):
and say look, make some realchanges here, Otherwise we'll
get someone else to run thisplace.
That's what we can do as theaverage voter.
You know that's the power wehold.
Let's make the governments whohave created these laws and
streamlined all these thingsthat happened in the past

(01:01:25):
accountable and actually dosomething really positive.

AJ (01:01:28):
The other act that stands out is the Land Administration
Act.
That's also on the cusp ofchanging, and one of the
benefits of it is that it'sclaiming that it'll enable many
more possibilities for nativetitle holders.
Is that something that ispresent for people here that
you're looking forward to, orwhat's the?

Clinton (01:01:45):
feeling there?
Um, I actually haven't had alook at it yet, but I think, as
native title groups, there's somuch more power we need to have
in terms of what goes on in ourcountry.
I've been on the board of mynative title body and it's a

(01:02:09):
struggle.
It's been a struggle in thepast because we're going up
against a system where we don'thold the keys, we don't hold the
power and you're trying to workwithin that and it just makes
things really, really hard whenyou're negotiating.
You know, when you're trying tolook after country, all these

(01:02:29):
type of things, it's reallydifficult.

AJ (01:02:31):
So the more power that can come back in the hands of
traditional owners in our PBCs,prescribed body corporates,
native title entities that canonly be a good thing, I think
again for all of us, becausethen you know you're getting a
genuine, a mutual learning thinggoing on, as opposed to sitting
here high and mighty on theother side of the fence knowing
that you're captive to meultimately, yeah like it always

(01:02:52):
has been since the europeansarrived.

Clinton (01:02:54):
Yeah, and that's.
That's a problem.
Like we've always been spokenat, we've never been on equal
playing field in any way,including in legislation, and
that has to change.
We're the first people of thisland.
Our ancestry goes backthousands and thousands of years
, yet we're the ones who are thelast ones to know about this,

(01:03:17):
last ones to be spoken to aboutthings and the last ones to be
able to do anything aboutanything, and that needs to
change.
You can't call us First Nationsif we're never first in
anything you know.
How would you describe thevision for this place that you
carry within yourself and Ithink Murujuga, and specifically

(01:03:41):
Murujuga, I think has a lot ofpotential to be like a place
where people will come and learnabout and it'll help them want
to learn more about other places.
You know people go to Uluru,but they go to Uluru.

(01:04:02):
It's a cultural place,spiritual place, but some people
they just go there because it'sjust a big rock.
You know, and you know theyused to climb the rock.
For example, the people fromthere said no, don't climb it,
it's not only dangerous, ourculture says you're not supposed
to climb it.
You know, yet here are thetraditional owners who have

(01:04:23):
ownership over that land andpeople going against their
wishes and then they finallyclose it down and everyone
kicked up a big stink about it.
But it's like it's better forthe place and people are
realizing that now and um, Ijust think that morauga can
become a place of spiritualsignificance for people because

(01:04:47):
if they learn properly about thehistory of this area, they know
that the song lines all comefrom here and if you want to
know this story, that storyabout this and that that
connects in different parts ofAustralia, you've got to come
here to learn them, becausethat's where they begin.
You know, and like our desertneighbours, whom we go out and

(01:05:11):
practise our law and culturewith our law time, you know, and
put our voice for initiationand vice versa.
These are people who livethousands and thousands of
kilometres away from thecoastline, half of them never
even been here.
Yet they know this place andthey know how special it is.
You know, because they're giventhat education and that's what

(01:05:32):
I want the rest of Australia andthe world to have.
It's like let's look aftercountry and culture, because
country and culture go together.
They're not separate.

AJ (01:05:45):
Alright, mate, it's been brilliant chatting.
Let's go with that musicquestion.
What's?
A piece of music that's beensignificant to you.

Clinton (01:05:54):
My favourite band, I suppose, is Metallica.
I just love their music.
I think they're just greatstorytellers and they're not
singing about country oranything like that.
But what I like is that they'regreat at storytelling their
stories in their songs.
People listen to their songsand they think it's just all
rah-rah-rah-rah, you know likereal.

(01:06:15):
But they've got genuine storiesin there Epics they're like
mythological epics in some casesyes absolutely.

AJ (01:06:22):
Like six seven minute songs Yep, yep.

Clinton (01:06:24):
Amazing film clips, in some instances as well, that's
what I love, and it just remindsme of who I am.
I'm a storyteller.
I tell the story of the land topeople, and I love doing that.
I think that's why I like theirmusic, because they tell great
stories in a very heavy metalway.

AJ (01:06:46):
Is there a particular song that stood out?

Clinton (01:06:47):
over the journey.
I love Creeping Death because Ialso grew up in the church.
I don't classify myself as achurch guy, a Christian or
anything like that, but I didgrow up in the church and in the
Old Testament they've someamazing stories, you know, in
the Bible, but one of myfavorites is the Emancipation.

(01:07:10):
So this Creeping Death,metallica's song, creeping Death
, is basically the story ofMoses and freeing his people,
but more specifically it's aboutthe angel of death coming in to
kill all the firstborn sons ofthe Egyptians as punishment for

(01:07:32):
not releasing the Hebrew people.
That's what it's about.
And so the creeping death issaying that no matter how
powerful you think you are orhow good you think you are, and
whether you're rich or not, goddoesn't care.
And from an Aboriginal point ofview, it doesn't matter who you

(01:07:55):
are, how good you are, how bigyou think you are and where you
fit in the scale of the world.
God, whom we call Mingala,doesn't care who you are, punish
you either way, and that's whywe have to look after country,
because we know from a spirituallevel that if we don't take
care of country, country willpunish us and harm us and

(01:08:18):
everybody, and it's ourresponsibility to look after
country, so that's why I likethat song.
.

AJ (01:08:24):
Terrific story.
Always glad I ask.
O ower to you, Clinton.
It's been brilliant to chat.
Thanks for having me here andspeaking with me.

CW (01:08:29):
No worries, mate.

AJ (01:08:30):
That was n Clinton Walker.
For more on Clinton Ngurranggatours and the incredible
Murujuga see the links in ourprogram details.
Thanks to the generoussupporters who've helped make
this episode possible.

(01:08:51):
If you too, value what you hear, please help keep The
RegenNarration going by joiningthis wonderful community of
listeners.
Just head to the website viathe show notes regennarratio.
co.
Forwar slas support.
Thanks.
s always, he music you'rehearing is Stones and Bones by
Owls of the Swamp.
My name's Anthony James.

(01:09:13):
Thanks for listening.