February 11, 2025 • 46 mins
Last month I had the honour of being a guest on the podcast of the legendary independent US media outlet Mongabay. It was a unique conversation, with US-born host Mike DiGirolamo based in Sydney, and me over here in the Americas, talking about some highlights from the seven months me and the family spent travelling across the USA last year, and relating it back to the seven years we’d travelled around Australia with the podcast before that.
Mike produced a unique patch up too, interspersing our conversation with enlightening editorial additions, and some material from a past episode that was wonderful to hear again. Mongabay kindly invited me to release the episode on The RegenNarration too, so here it is, in full - a fascinating 'reverse' cross-continental exchange for the moment at hand.
You’ll hear some highlights from last year’s US journey, including more personal stories behind the journey, more detail on the hope we derived from listening to people on the ground in that election year, and the exchange I had with Allan Savory in Colorado. And all while Mike and I were inspiring thoughts in each other from our respective experiences as we went.
Recorded mid-December 2024.
Title slide: Mike DiGirolamo.
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Music:
Intro music by Jeremiah Johnson.
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.
The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AJ (00:00):
"There is a principle there, and it's one for all of us who
might despair on occasion.
Don't despair, for even theworst of things that pass.
ature's got incredible power -and the nature in us as humans
too - to learn and transform.
Why are you hearing a quotefrom me, you might ask.
(00:26):
Well, last month I had thehonour of being a guest on the
podcast of the legendaryindependent US media outlet
Mongabay.
It was a unique conversationwith US-born host Mike
DiGirolamo, based in Sydney, andme over here in the Americas,
talking about some highlightsfrom the seven months me and the
(00:46):
family spent travelling acrossthe US last year, and relating
it back to the seven years we'dtravelled around Australia with
the podcast before that.
Mike produced a unique patch-uptoo, interspersing our
conversation with someenlightening editorial additions
and some material from a pastepisode that was wonderful to
hear again.
Mongabay kindly invited me torelease this episode on The
(01:10):
RegenNarration too, so here itis in full - a fascinating
cross-continental exchange forthe moment at hand.
G'day Anthony James here for TheRegenNarration, your
independent, listener-supportedportal into the regenerative era
.
Standing in the snow back inBaltimore, Maryland.
I figured the park would beempty about now, but it did only
(01:32):
just empty out.
They're a hearty lot here, susual.
I'd like to thank a fewlisteners - Jennifer West,
Scott, Bronwen Morgan andLindsay Sell.
Thanks for being paidsubscribers for over three years
now.
To Fiona Hill, thanks for buyinga couple of my old mentor Frank
Fisher's books.
And to you new paid subscriberson Substack, I'll thank you
(01:53):
personally over there.
If you're not yet part of thisgreat community of supporting
listeners, I'd love you to joinus.
Get benefits if you like andhelp keep the show on the road.
Just follow the links in theshow notes, with my great
gratitude On Mongabay's releaselast month.
ur conversation was titled TurnProblems into Solutions for
Culture and Agriculture AcrossAustralia and the Americas.
(02:15):
So, yep, you'll hear me talkabout some of the highlights
from last year's US journey,including more of the personal
stories behind the journey, moredetail on the hope we derived
from listening to people on theground in that election year and
the special exchange I had withAlan Savory on our meeting in
Colorado, nd all that rolls outin a way where Mike and I were
(02:36):
inspiring thoughts in each otherfrom our respective experiences
as we went.
So, setting the scene, here'sMike.
Mike (02:43):
Welcome to the Mongabay Newscast.
I'm your co-host, MikeDiGirolamo, bringing you weekly
conversations with experts,authors, scientists and
activists working on the frontlines of conservation, shining a
light on some of the mostpressing issues facing our
planet and holding people inpower to account.
This podcast is edited onGatticle land.
(03:06):
Today on the newscast, I speakwith Anthony James, creator and
host of the popular podcastfocused on agroecological and
sustainable land use stories.
he RegenNarration.
James has a prime ministerialaward for service to the
international community and isan honorary research fellow at
(03:28):
the University of WesternAustralia.
We recorded this conversationwhile he was in Guatemala during
a tour of the Americas.
In our conversation, Jamesrecounts the stories of communal
collaboration, of restoringland, encouraging more
independent civic participationin politics, and the generosity
and hope he personallyexperienced in the wake of a
(03:51):
contentious and, for many,heart-rending political season
in the United States.
We also discuss the challengethat invasive species present
and highlight some of the moresurprising ways in which humans
and animals alike are adaptingto these challenges, A theme I
previously explored withPulitzer winner Elizabeth
(04:11):
Colbert on this very podcast,but is currently playing out in
a remote homestead known asKachana Station here in
Australia.
In the context of the currentecological breakdown we face
globally.
In the context of the currentecological breakdown we face
globally, James reminds us howmany times the answers we are
(04:32):
seeking are right in front of us.
Anthony James, welcome to theMongabay Newscast.
It's great to have you with us.
AJ (04:39):
Great to be with you too, Mike, Good to meet y.
MD (04:41):
Before we get into anything , can you just give us a a
primer?
What is regeneration?
Why did you start it?
AJ (04:52):
I started it because I'd tell me which thread do I pull.
So I I started to think aboutan old idea I had for a radio
show years prior, but never didit because I was never going to
do a graveyard shift at thesecommunity stations.
But that was where I sort ofdid a course and so I hadn't had
my chops up enough to do it,but I was never going to go
anywhere with it in that sense.
(05:12):
So it sort of sat there andthen a friend said to me one day
maybe you should do a podcast.
And in that moment I'm likeyou're dead right.
So I started in 2017, but itwas very stop-start and in a
bigger context of things I wastrying to do as well, until the
start of 2018.
And that's why the events endedup stopping here, because I
(05:33):
actually had another feeling andit was that I had to get out.
The last event I happened to dowas with Charlie Massey, so
Regenerative Agriculture Doyenin Australia published Call of
the Reed Warbler.
At that time I got on the phoneto him straight away and said
would you come down for thisevent?
He came down and the festivalthat it was going to be at
Sustainable Living Festival inMelbourne brought across two
(05:55):
legends from Western Australia,from the rangelands, southern
rangelands, at Woolene StationFrancis and Dave.
They brought them across.
So it was just another all-starpanel, incredible event, 300
plus people.
And it became a podcast soon too, one of the early ones, because
(06:16):
what happened then was theevents stopped and we thought as
a family, it's time for us toget to know our country properly
.
Let's get out to these peoplerather than ask them to come to
us in the city for a fleetingmoment.
Let's get out to them, learnabout our country really for the
first time in this way, Nowthat we know these people are
out there, bringing it back, gomeet them, see where that leads
(06:36):
us.
And I committed to afortnightly release for the
first time to share what wefound, and I thought by the time
we get back I'll know whetherthat's worth continuing, but
I'll do it for now.
And, yeah, the shorter the longis it?
It grew legs about halfwaythrough.
A couple of shifts in in themetric showed me that, to my
great surprise, that people werestarting to tune in and um and
(06:59):
and wow is even a little epitaphto that story in that, in that
about the time people started totune in was the time we visited
Kachana Station in theKimberley in far northwestern
Australia for the first time andthat, by virtue of the story
since resulted in them being onAustralian Story, famous
(07:19):
Australian TV show on the ABCfor those who don't know further
afield, TV show on the ABC forthose who don't know, Further
Afield just a month ago, andthat's tracking at about 650,000
views so far already.
So it's been very interestingto be part of that.
Mike (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, before we even go further, just for
listeners who aren't aware ofregeneration.
You highlight these incrediblestories of people stewarding the
land in ways that regenerate itor different ways of using the
land.
But this story about KachanaStation, before we even go
(07:58):
further, can you just give ouraudience a primer on what is
occurring here, because it's areally, really fascinating and
incredible story and it's stillongoing as we speak.
So can you tell us?
AJ (08:10):
about it.
Yeah, it is ongoing, in acritical way, in fact, would you
believe.
As we speak, I believe ajudgment is being made, or has
just been made, about the pointyend of what they're trying to
achieve there.
But let me back up first.
Yeah, so here is a stationbigger than the size of
(08:31):
Singapore, which is,historically speaking, a small
station in Australia, like aranch for those.
It's a small one yeah 200,000acres, yeah, but he bought him
and his family.
So Chris Hengler and his familybought the southern fifth of
what was a standard issue backthen a million acres of El
(08:52):
Cuestro, and it's become quite afamous station, a bit of a
theme park these days.
But this was the southern partthat had long been abandoned.
After First Nations had beencleared off it and whitefellas
had abandoned it and this is notan uncommon tale through the
interior, australia was fullypopulated.
Mike (09:12):
Perhaps we'll get to talk more about this.
Unfortunately, I did not get totalk to Anthony further about
this, but it is an incrediblypowerful story for listeners who
may be interested.
Anthony hosted a conversationwith archaeologist Peter Veth,
who describes the evidence thatpoints to Australia having
roughly 6.5 million people inthe tens of thousands of years
(09:36):
before European colonistsarrived.
First nation Australiansmigrated to the interior of the
continent and this was at a timewhen the size of the continent
was around 25 to 50% larger andsea levels were 130 meters over
400 feet, lower than they arenow.
I really recommend giving thatconversation a listen.
(09:57):
Peter Veth, on the regeneration.
AJ (10:00):
The First Nations map of Australia looks more like we're
accustomed to seeing, well,perhaps a United States map with
the different states or, ifwe're thinking more like
countries, western Europe, apatchwork of hundreds of nations
, each with languages of theirown and dialects within, right
across the interior.
So it's very much a colonialartifact that that's an
(10:21):
uninhabitable or harsh, quoteunquote terrain of fact that
that's an uninhabitable or harsh, quote-unquote terrain.
So, but this is what we haddone, have done to a lot of the
interior of australia, and thiswas certainly true of this part
of alquestra which suited thehengla family because they
didn't have much behind them,having fled zimbabwe.
Well, chris had, from hisfamily, fled zimbabwe when the
(10:41):
revolution happened there andwhite folk had to flee their
farms because of the brutalitygoing on there.
And of course that's toacknowledge also the context of
that brutality where the whitefolk got their farms.
But that being the complexityit is, chris ends up in
Switzerland at school, theshorter the longer, but you can
hear more about it on the TVshow and on the podcast too is
(11:05):
that he meets his future wifethere.
They end up moving to Australiatogether.
To this clapped out, I mean, I'mtalking total dust bowl, except
that when Chris saw it in thelate 80s, there was still water
coming through it in the wetseason.
So I was like, okay, there'swater, there's sun, I can work
(11:26):
with it, we're going to get itfor a soil.
They got it.
It's took them two years to getout there because there's no
road access, so it's purely by.
You know, they hauledeverything they could in with
Beesaburden initially, but thenfrom there it's been Aeropane
and more recently helicopter.
There it's been aeroplane andmore recently helicopter.
(11:47):
So they get in there, they,they're sleeping in the back of
the ute with, I think it was twokids.
At that stage maybe they hadthe three or the third one was
soon to come.
Yeah, little kids picking dirtout of their teeth because it's
such a dust bowl.
Yeah, and and fast forward, oh.
And it got worse by the way.
The water had stopped runningby the time they got there,
because it took years toactually get the logistics
(12:08):
straight and move out there,which is to say, importantly,
that the land wasn't coming backwith no one on it.
And this is a very commonpreset for Indigenous folk too.
Country needs people, peopleneed country, country needs
people.
It proved to be true.
Here they stuck at it.
30 years on, it is wow.
(12:30):
It's not an overstatement tosay it's an oasis in the desert,
because around it stilldesertifies, sadly and terribly.
We need to get onto it.
But here is this extraordinaryexemplar, and I'm talking peat
reforming in places.
Now, 30 years down the track,even in the six years I've been
going out there, you're spongyunderfoot and in parts it's like
(12:53):
swamp and in other parts you'vegot he sort of let forest do
its thing, just to see what thatwould look like.
And then, to round out thepointy end of the story where I
started, one of the methodsthey've used.
Well, they've used holisticgrazing and holistic management.
So it's livestock as yourfundamental tool to do this.
To keep ground cover 100%ground cover 100% of the time as
(13:15):
close to that as you can get,is the short of it.
We might pick that apart a bitmore, but that's the short of it
, instead of having to burn itback or have wildfire completely
destroy it which is a given,it's one or the other up there,
basically or this method havelivestock mulch, prune and
fertilize, as they say.
And the thing that Kachana didwas they started to use not only
(13:39):
cattle, but the wild donkeysthat have been designated pests
and shoot on site type of thingresponsibility of the ranchers
to do that.
They thought, well, maybe wecan use them in the same way.
They were social animals.
They were brought here astransport.
Let's re-engage them.
They still would shoot the onesthat didn't re-socialize, if
(13:59):
you like, but the ones that did,they re-established their herd
behavior, the trust, and theywould graze on the upper ranges
Together.
They've made this extraordinarymiracle happen, but the
government has been on them onlythe last few years.
So it's a very peculiar type ofwhy now?
Type of thing.
But they have been goingthrough the mill of a trial of
sorts in the last few years asto whether they can indeed
(14:22):
continue to use the donkeys thisway or will be forced to shoot
them, and that judgment, Ibelieve, has just been passed.
Mike (14:28):
So maybe we can stick an update in your show notes after
we're done anthony emailed meafter our recording and the
judgment on whether the hanglerfamily is ordered to shoot 72
donkeys has been stayed yetagain for now and is pending
further review.
I I found this so justfascinating because it reminded
(14:49):
me a bit of a conversation I washaving with elizabeth colbert,
um.
Author elizabeth colbert yeahabout in invasive species, and
australia, as we know, is isvery, very famous for having a
large amount of introducedinvasive species.
But here it seems like there'sthis, this way of taking what
(15:13):
started out as a problem andusing it as a solution, rather
than trying to control it, in away that is sort of trying to
remedy the problem, the originalproblem, and therefore creating
more problems if that makessense and I was just wondering
from your perspective.
I was wondering from yourperspective, if you think
(15:36):
there's other situations inAustralia where maybe we might
be missing some opportunities touse this situation to our
advantage 100% To me.
AJ (15:49):
There is no doubt now and this is a vital piece of the
puzzle if we are to get anywherein Australia and further afield
for that matter the first thingI think of is an Aboriginal
elder that was also on thepodcast.
Episode 100 was Kachana, sortof the main episode there.
When we went back the secondtime.
Episode 102 was with these guysout on a peninsula in the West
(16:13):
Kimberley, so the other side ofthe Kimberley, and I asked him
at the time because they weretalking about donkeys being on
their property too, and I askedhim at the time so what about
donkeys being pests and so forth?
And what about the donkeys,bruno?
Oh, they're scared.
Yeah, because they're scared.
They see all the way up withthe people Trying to shoot them
(16:33):
too.
Mike (16:34):
And they start shooting them, you know Trying to shoot
them too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AJ (16:49):
The notion that you would regard them, or anything else
including, I might say, colonialsettlers as pests.
I mean, this is where theirextraordinary forbearance comes
towards us as descendants ofthose colonists.
A brutal history, Yet all I'veever received is welcoming and
generosity.
I had to try to make sense ofthat for a while, but it's
(17:12):
because of the kinship structure.
If you're there, you're kin.
There's no sense of beinggreater than and that is what's
got us into this pickle is thishead of the hierarchy type
thinking, and it's why all ourattempted solutions well, I'm
being general here, butessentially we're still going
(17:32):
backwards, aren't we?
Emissions going up andextensions marching on and so
forth, Because they're comingwith that mindset still.
And so, yeah, when it comes tothe actual animals, the other
story I think about, which wasamazing to me, it was a woman
who got in touch from New SouthWales, Brooke Purvis.
Mike (17:49):
It became episode 181, maybe I think.
AJ (17:54):
And she heard the Kachana episode and she got in touch and
said I'm really moved by that.
I wonder if there's some way Ican help, like, if the donkeys
stay on the shoot list, maybethat you can get them to me,
because I started this and thiswas a completely unexpected turn
for her, which is a common taleof people never thinking they'd
be where they are.
I'm included, I'm amongst them.
(18:15):
She says I've started thisthing.
Now it's a donkey rescue thing,and then we sort of
re-socialise them, we train them, and then we train people in
how to handle them, becausethey're amazing stock guardians
and now they're in huge demandover here on the East Coast as
stock guardians because dingoesare a problem.
So our apex predator, akin tosort of a wolf or coyote over
(18:38):
where your families are from,but that's a big issue for as
long as we want to stillparticularly have sheep, okay,
so we do.
It's particularly an issue withsheep predator too, should not
be on the shoot list and isanother necessary.
Well, another form of kinship,and another very helpful form of
(19:03):
kinship too, that station Imentioned, wolleen in the West.
They basically left thecornerstone of their
regeneration because it tookcare of all the goats that were
overgrazing.
Even the excessive kangaroosscared the cats off, got rid of
the feral dogs, actually thesort of the wild dogs that
weren't actually dingoes.
So Brooke tells me a story wherethis is working and it hit me.
(19:25):
I thought, wow, she'sdemonstrating how we could
stitch the Australian continentback together again and not
regard any of these so-calledpest animals.
I mean, might, maybe you'llstill mouth an argument against
the cane tone or something.
Maybe, maybe we could talkabout the details, but in terms
of the boars and the donkeys andthe camels and that that there
(19:47):
are ways to manage them and thedingoes to manage them.
And this is the differenceright To manage, not control,
and not to just leave unmanagedferal, destroying the place.
To manage as part of apatchwork that was akin to what
was here before, even though,yeah, sure, now it's going to be
(20:09):
, with different people,different climate and different
animals and plants and so forth.
Mike (20:14):
But there is a way and different animals and plants and
so forth, but there is a way.
Yeah, there there's got to be.
I mean, and on the cane toad, II heard that there's like
actually a way now that peopleare eating them.
I haven't looked into this yeah, I have not looked into this
myself and I might cut this outif I, if I have this wrong, but
I believe there is now thatthere's now a way that people
(20:38):
are finding a way to eat them.
Like how do you?
The cane toads are poisonous forfolks that are there, are aware
, but there's actually peoplethat are cooking and eating them
now.
So, okay, before you go tryingto eat a cane toad, please don't
do that on your own, becausecane toads are toxic and
preparing them has to be done ina specific way that still isn't
(20:59):
fully understood or researched,but apparently is working for
now.
Professor Philip Hayward fromSouthern Cross University told
the ABC in Darwin last year thateating cane toads can be done
safely and is an economic andenvironmental win-win, as
there's roughly 200 million ofthem in the country.
A food project known as Gulp NThas a method for doing this
(21:21):
that involves freezing the toadand removing the legs for
consumption.
AJ (21:26):
You've just brought it back.
No, you've just drinkedsomething in me, mike, I think.
Oh, did I hear about?
Anyway, what I might be able tocompliment in our speculation
but it's worth looking up, isn'tit is that animals are starting
, so there's now a return.
So Kachana, for example, thiscane toad swept through Western
(21:47):
Australia only recently andgoing east to west.
So it was diabolical as theyhad been everywhere.
But years on, so five years on,maybe now they're starting to
observe the reptiles coming backand the kills of the toads that
the animals do.
So the humans are still killingthem, but the animals do.
They're learning to eitheravoid the animals altogether or
(22:11):
kill them in a particular waywhere they don't succumb, and I
can't remember if I did indeedhear.
Humans are doing the same thing.
Yeah, nature's adapting.
Mike (22:19):
There's, yeah, there was.
So the ibis which, by the way,is not a bin chicken folks, it
is an ibis it has found a way.
It always breaks my heart whenI hear people call them bin
chickens because they're just,they're just so beautiful.
But they found a way to knockthe poison out of the cane toad
before consuming it.
(22:39):
More reporting from the ABChighlights how the ibis grips
the cane toad in its signaturelong beak, flicks the toad
around to stress it out, whichforces the toad to release the
toxins from its shoulder glands.
The ibis will then wash thetoad in a creek or a nearby body
of water, and this is calledthe stress and wash technique.
AJ (23:00):
Yeah, this is the thing, hey , like it's an important thing.
It's like there is a principlethere, and it's one for all of
us who might despair on occasionDon't despair, for even the
worst of things that pass.
Nature's got incredible powerand the nature in us as humans
(23:20):
too to learn and transform.
Mike (23:28):
Hey listeners, thanks as always for tuning into the Manga
Bay Newscast.
As a non-profit news provider,we rely on the generosity of our
readers and listeners likeyourself.
It's the main reason we canbring you independent news and
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Now we always encourage you todonate if you can, but if you
(23:48):
really want to help the MongabayNewscast grow, I encourage you
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The more people that know whatwe do, the more we can do.
Thanks again, and now back tothe conversation with Anthony
James.
I couldn't agree more.
This might actually be a goodtime for me to bring up
(24:11):
something with you, but did yousee the new study that just got
released that said about 215million hectares of degraded and
deforested land in the tropicscould regenerate naturally?
I don't know if you saw that,but was keen to hear your
thoughts about it.
If you had seen that study, Ican send it to you.
AJ (24:34):
I haven't seen it.
Please do send it to me.
It's interesting, I think of.
Well, I think of what I justsaid.
In a sense I'm not surprised,but the thing that stood out to
me about what you said I wonderinstantly where the place of
humans is in that.
What is our form of tending,that the country needs people
bit, or is that proving?
(24:55):
I mean, I'm here in Guatemalaright now and they're still
uncovering the old cities of theMayan civilization, and it's
fascinating for what people havelearned just in the 20 years I
haven't been in this country,sort of revisiting it, and it's
interesting because I doremember, though, like these
broad, sweeping cities withsuburbs, would-be suburbs and
(25:20):
the suburbs, sure, we can seethe temples and stuff, but the
suburbs are still largely buriedin jungle and it does go to
show perhaps the tropics aremore adept at not needing us for
periods, not needing humans forperiods, more adept than, say,
at Kachana.
I mean, that's pretty tropicalbut it's dry tropics, so it's
(25:40):
savannah type stuff.
Maybe there's a differencethere.
But I wonder what place peopleare, what role people are having
, including perhaps firstpeoples of those places that may
have never left.
Mike (25:52):
It's.
Yeah, I mean this was reportedon by one of our staff members,
john cannon, and there I believethe study highlighted that when
you have local people on boardwith restoring a piece of forest
, it tends to work better, andPeople you get on board with re
(26:12):
Foresting that land, that's whenyou get the results, but if you
don't, there's there's morechallenge.
Hold up a sec.
I actually encourage you toread the article from john
cannon yourself, as I'm notreally doing it justice here.
But to be a little more clear,the study that john wrote about
looked at areas that couldregenerate naturally on their
(26:34):
own if you do nothing.
However, though and this is thepoint I was trying to make the
study co-author, matt Fagan,told Mongabay quote the only way
a young forest sticks around isif local people are on board
with letting that young foreststick around.
This study just showspossibility.
Persistence is the other halfof it, and persistence is
(26:57):
through policy, it's throughworking with people, it's
through building partnershipsand finding ways for people to
extract money out of youngforest and make them a good
financial investment.
So I mean, that doesn'tsurprise me, and I just think
it's a pattern I'm I'm noticing.
Is that I mean we talked with,I don't know if you um, if you
(27:21):
know, tony ronaldo um and hisstory.
Oh, yes, tony, yeah, in in inniger.
We had him on the podcastlikewise I did too.
AJ (27:29):
Amazing story yeah he is.
Mike (27:31):
I mean, it took him a lot of trial and error, but he had
obviously the buy-in from localcommunities to do this, and now
they're all on board with it.
AJ (27:42):
Yeah, it's great.
It's a great story, tony'sstory, and it is instructive.
Mike (27:47):
Since you mentioned you're in Guatemala, I was going to
ask you what are you working onin the Americas right now?
What are some of the moreamazing things that you have
noticed since you've been overthere?
AJ (27:59):
So before we got to Guatemala so we've been here a
couple of weeks now because Iused to live here 20 years ago
and I was being that close,relatively speaking, having
traveled the States for the lastseven months with the podcast
had to come and visit, and now,with the family in tow, it's
quite a special homecoming.
But the seven months across theStates was the big thing for a
(28:21):
lot of reasons, including wehadn't been overseas for nearly
two decades.
We drew a line under that sortof travel for climate and equity
reasons, leave futuregenerations to have a chance of
doing some of it, because we'dhad a fill.
But out of the podcastexperience over six years the
short of it is the calls hadstarted to mount and the feeling
(28:41):
that it could be of valuestarted to grow.
So from April we were travelingacross the states with the
podcast and there are so manythings that were so interesting,
as much because it was theelection year that it was too
right.
And so in a sense, yes, I saw.
We saw extraordinaryregeneration of land and culture
(29:02):
, first Nations and other fromdesolation in many cases.
We saw next generations takingup the mantle and sort of
mentorship structures building,saw trust situations, bringing
land access to people or landreturn to people, all these
sorts of things, but in a sense,the biggest thing I saw,
(29:25):
overarchingly I mean, I shouldadd, I even saw community
movements which summed to reallylooking to depolarize the
politics and enable people torun for office who were
community people, not careerpoliticians, much less beholden
to such a strong adversarial andcorporate political structure,
let alone media structure.
So I found multiple facets of amovement on that front and one
(29:50):
in particular captured myimagination because they're only
18 months running, born out ofa young woman's experience in
Maine who became the youngestever senator, female senator
elected there but then didn'trun again to actually set up a
non-profit that helped othersrun.
They just had 38 of theiralumni inside 18 months run for
office in this election and manyof them got voted for by Trump
(30:16):
voters.
So there's a fascinating thingcoming out of that, which I'm
still probing, but it justsuggests which is what we found
across the country.
There are so many layers ofnuance to what is very often
portrayed as a utterly polarizedand cleanly binary situation
(30:39):
Trump, republican, bad lunaticsin rural areas who vote for them
bad, and city people who areeducated voting Democrat.
And well, wouldn't that havebeen good if they won, type
thing.
But I saw so many layers ofnuance in this and of course
we've just seen regenerativeagriculture legends appointed to
(31:00):
advisory positions or otheraround agriculture and health in
Trump's portfolio.
Now I'm not advocating for aTrump administration.
I still do feel like Chloe,that woman in Maine felt that
he's the violent rhetoric.
He as a character to me playsas much into the portrayal and
(31:21):
exploitation of division asanybody else that I lament on
both of those sides right, and Ithink the sides is the problem.
So when I see these communityefforts coming up, as is
happening in Australia, ofcourse, which you'll know too
well with the independents, andthis is a thing we talked about
with a bunch of people in theStates too, that sure, different
system, but there's peopleworking at those aspects of the
(31:42):
system too, what can enable thetranscending of the nasty,
exploitative politics.
So we saw plenty of that and insome, a human spirit that we
didn't expect, that was sharedacross the political divide and
other divides right across thecountry, urban, rural, right
(32:02):
across the states.
To us was the biggest pictureof all.
We didn't expect suchgenerosity and spirit and hope,
though tested hope.
Many people said to us when wereflected back some of our
observations well, thank you.
I needed to hear this about mycountry.
(32:23):
I'd almost given up and wasbuying the story that we're shot
and awful by nature, likemostly, and so to me the biggest
story is that and where I sawit happen.
Just to round out my answer toyour question, mike was in
(32:44):
something that I've witnessed inAustralia too and it's almost
like a people whispery.
I put that to what it said mejokingly, but I've seen people
work with communities that areutterly divided.
Judy Schwartz wrote it up in theReindeer Chronicles, even one
of these stories, and I went onto meet the person she wrote up,
which was a guy called JeffGoble who facilitated a process
(33:06):
with community in New Mexico,just for one example, and they
would come to arms and the landreflected it.
It was shot and in three days Iremember her writing this up
she's observing a day and a halfin.
She's seen the nature of theconflicts, the nature of the
people, the defensiveness, allthe bloodletting, all this stuff
(33:27):
.
She's like there's no way thisis coming out with a resolution
and some form of conciliation inthree days.
Yet it did, and then I went toJeff in New Mexico and saw a
process in person of a differentkind on homelessness.
How do we solve homelessness,as it were, before it gets
totally out of hand in NewMexico?
(33:49):
And this was a one-day processthat I hastened away.
I didn't even get through theagenda.
So this became the subject of apodcast episode, because the
next day I'm like Jeff, I didn'teven get through the agenda.
So this became the subject of apodcast episode, because the
next day I'm like Jeff, I didn'teven get through the agenda.
How would people so enam roomthat?
(34:17):
Some people who are moreaction-oriented or less
interested in the warm andfuzzies and they were
self-described that way at theoutset those people are going to
be frustrated.
They spent another day and itdidn't get through to resolution
.
They were ecstatic about theprocess and, sure enough, within
weeks afterwards there wasamazing, unprecedented media
coverage, half a million dollarson the table and some land
(34:40):
bequeathed to start to take somesteps and they weren't brought
up at the time.
So there's something about theseprocesses that create the
conditions out of which thisstuff came, and this is the same
thing I hear from ranchers onthe land they create the
conditions out of which thestuff came, and this is the same
thing I hear from ranchers onthe land, they create the
conditions out of which theregeneration comes.
(35:00):
And that's the huge thing thatI've observed, whether it be
with the people part of natureor the land part of nature or
whatever is that theme, and thatagain, there are ways we can do
it.
It's not what you'll see on themedia, it's not what you get
from the major political parties, but it is a buzz across all of
(35:22):
those domains.
What if we get on that wagon,more of us, get skilled up in
these ways and make more of thathappen?
I mean, I wonder what criticalthresholds we might be able to
tip in the positive directionand surprise ourselves there is.
Mike (35:42):
There does seem to be this sort of and just anecdotally,
me noticing more communitiestaking things into their own
hands, such as, yeah, like, likedifferent cities getting rid of
of ridiculous zoning laws thatdon't allow them to build homes
in in certain places, or gettingrid of, like, minimum parking
(36:04):
requirements, which isresponsible for a bunch of
pavement and asphalt being putdown on on land that that is
critical for biodiversity, solike getting rid of those things
.
But it's not happening on anational scale, it's happening
locally.
Um, so, yeah, I, I do, I do seeand witness things like that.
Yeah, more so, more so, in caseyeah, what would?
AJ (36:28):
be the australian case, where, where, where.
Because of the transformationin our national parliament.
It's interesting, thetransformation in the states
transformation maybe it's earlyto say that, but that hint of
change because, by the way, abunch of those 38 candidates
that came out of that communityworkshopping that ran, I think
all one and and another personwho hadn't been through it.
(36:51):
That's connected with it.
One is an independent in mainefor fourth term running.
So even an independent can winin the United States electoral
system at state level at least.
But in Australia thecommunity-minded transformation
in our parliament has happenedat a federal level,
interestingly, not at local orstate.
(37:12):
So sure, there'll be good localestate stuff happening too, but
in terms of a change in the wayour actual primary parliament
works, that's happening at anational level in Australia.
So it's to say let's not hedgeourselves in with where it can
and can't happen, just look outfor the opportunities based on
(37:33):
wherever we are and what we canwork with.
But in general I totally agreewith you, and I think it's as
much because, as Alan Savorysaid to me the other day, I met
him in Denver just briefly afterthe Regenerate conference there
and he said regenerativeagriculture, holistic raising,
it's coming on everywhere.
But he lamented the fact thatit's still so marginal and I
(37:54):
know Charlie Massey is lamentingthis too, because we've seen
the power of the extractivesuper organism, if you will
growth economy, that wholemandate double down, go faster,
thinking.
What it's missing is to goharder, not to take heed.
So I think that is where it isleaving people to go.
(38:16):
Okay, well, let's just create adifferent way and in our case,
in Australia, amazingly, I stillcan't believe it.
It's a transformation not manysaw coming a few years ago.
That's reaching up into ournational parliament Great, but
yeah, I think the good oldgrassroots is and just people
(38:36):
taking it on themselves becausewhat else are you going to do at
this stage is absolutely theway, and that is bubbling up
everywhere.
So where that leads us to, Ithink if more of us can get
involved and more of us who canback it, yeah, we'll see.
Mike (38:56):
Before we get to the end here, I do want to try and pick
your brain a bit about and thisis a broad question and I
understand it's going to vary bycase by case practice that
really just struck you, that youthink is being underutilized
either in the US or in Australia.
(39:20):
That has a lot of potentialthat you really wish more people
knew about.
AJ (39:26):
Yeah, totally.
In a way it's again which theydid pull.
There'd be a number.
I mean, I think, on top of whatwe said before about so-called
pest or invasive species and ina biodiversity crisis that we
would continue to play God withthat is almost beggar's belief
(39:47):
in a sense.
Let's say, where whitefellas?
So, for example, I'll say theHaggerty family in the Wheat
Bolt of Western Australia.
I'll mention them because as anexample of where grassroots
efforts end up breaking through,they've just been awarded the
Western Australian Australiansof the Year Award.
Now they go in the big one, theAustralian of the Year Award
(40:11):
that gets awarded in Januarynext year after 30 years of
pioneering right.
But it's a hint of how thingsare changing next year After 30
years of pioneering right.
But it's a hint of how thingsare changing.
They've only recently,relatively recently, connected
with First Nations and what hascome out of that connection
already in like a couple ofshort years, is extraordinary.
It's on the podcast, it can befound, but it's to say that the
(40:33):
fear that still commonly willstop people who have got land
through the colonial system fromengaging, for fear that they'll
lose it or whatever thebenefits on offer, the rewards
on offer are immense in allrespects in how the land works,
in how the cultural stories getshared and the healing that
happens from that.
(40:54):
Oh that's huge.
And obviously there's a 50,000,60,000 year heritage in
Australia alone, let aloneanywhere else.
I think of the actual methodson the ground, animal led in
some cases to a degree againthat I just couldn't believe
what I was seeing, like animalsshowing farmers where to go, not
(41:15):
the other way around.
And in some cases, wherefarmers go but it's still dirt
over there, what are you goingthere for?
But they inoculated with theirfertilizer.
Their microbiome was so engagedover so long.
Because these are animals thatdon't ship off right, they ship
off some but they kept themicrobiome in exchange with the
(41:36):
land developing over thesedecades.
These pioneers and and thenthat will spread to a different
part of the land.
That looks shot and that shouldbe the last place.
You put more animals and andtriggers the, the, the dormant
microbiome or seed or whateverin in those parts.
So even animal in parts, butcertainly animal-utilized.
And then there's that groundcover piece, hey, that I
(41:59):
witnessed so starkly at Kachana,where even Indigenous folk we
could speculate where they gotexpert with fire.
Did they need to use it as muchas they did.
I mean, this is what you startto wonder because of the
megafauna that were lost on bothour continents, right, right,
yeah, that perhaps there's a wayfor the large herbivores of
(42:21):
today, the new megafauna, asChris Hengler would call it, to
mean we can use fire moreselectively with animals and so
not need to kill all them andleave more cover on the ground
without it getting to be firebait and so more microbiome
thriving underneath andultimately, fungi and et cetera,
(42:43):
et cetera.
All these things we're learningnow, so that 100% ground cover
100% of the time sort of holygrail.
I mean we could go on, butthere's some of the stuff that's
really hit me and, of course,they're all interlinked and in
that sense, maybe we'll figureout there's an overarching thing
, answer to your question thatjust covers it all, or we might
(43:03):
just come up with another fewthings that are interlinked with
those, but there's some of thelevels and layers that are just
proving to again show ways that,even in places you least expect
it, ultimately, once they startto pick up pace, restore land
and people and community, right,people come back out to these
(43:26):
places and people don't be soangry as the Trump voters in
Wisconsin or something.
You know that perhaps do feel abit vengeful or neglected.
I'd say vengeful would be sad,neglected.
Fair enough in many ways, yeah.
Yeah that there's a way to mendthose things in surprisingly
quick timeframes if we startbarking up the right trees a bit
(43:48):
more.
Mike (43:50):
Well, Anthony, where can listeners learn more about your
work and listen to some of yourepisodes?
AJ (43:58):
Thanks, mike.
Yeah, certainly, if anyone'sinterested, the podcast is the
main outlet probably going tocreate a Sub stack.
I'm going to add to the substack.
Mike (44:06):
Get on the Su stack train.
AJ (44:07):
Yes, that's right.
I've been wondering whether Ishould or not, but I probably
will, because I feel likethere's stories between the
stories, which is why it's alsoso great to speak to you.
You get to flesh some of thoseout, so I might do some of that
too.
But there's certainly a website, RegenNarration.
com with a little play on theword narration, like story
RegenNarration, and then thepodcast wherever you find
(44:30):
podcasts.
Mike (44:31):
Well, Anthony, it was a pleasure speaking with you.
Safe travels, back toAustralia, whenever it is that
you, when you come back here.
AJ (44:39):
Thanks, mike.
I anticipate it'll be sort ofmid next year.
We might get back into theStates after we've traveled
around Central America a littlebit.
But thank you, it's been agreat pleasure chatting with you
too, mate, and love your work.
Power to you.
Mongabay Newscast's host, mikeDiGirolamo, or more on Mike and
(45:15):
Mongabay, the episodes on theHaggerty family's connecting
with First Nations from back inthe 90s through to the farm
today, and the episode withBruno Dan n that Mike patched in
.
ee the links in the show notes.
And oh, I did end up launchinga Substack column too, so I've
linked to that as well, if youfancy a read.
As usual, I'll have more forsubscribing members soon, and
(45:36):
great thanks for making thisepisode possible.
You can join this greatcommunity of listeners by
heading to the website or theshow notes and following the
prompts.
Thanks a lot.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
Mike (45:48):
Thank you.
"There is a principle there, and it's one for all of us who
might despair on occasion.
Don't despair, for even theworst of things that pass.
ature's got incredible power -and the nature in us as humans
too - to learn and transform.
Why are you hearing a quotefrom me, you might ask.
(00:26):
Well, last month I had thehonour of being a guest on the
podcast of the legendaryindependent US media outlet
Mongabay.
It was a unique conversationwith US-born host Mike
DiGirolamo, based in Sydney, andme over here in the Americas,
talking about some highlightsfrom the seven months me and the
(00:46):
family spent travelling acrossthe US last year, and relating
it back to the seven years we'dtravelled around Australia with
the podcast before that.
Mike produced a unique patch-uptoo, interspersing our
conversation with someenlightening editorial additions
and some material from a pastepisode that was wonderful to
hear again.
Mongabay kindly invited me torelease this episode on The
(01:10):
RegenNarration too, so here itis in full - a fascinating
cross-continental exchange forthe moment at hand.
G'day Anthony James here for TheRegenNarration, your
independent, listener-supportedportal into the regenerative era
.
Standing in the snow back inBaltimore, Maryland.
I figured the park would beempty about now, but it did only
(01:32):
just empty out.
They're a hearty lot here, susual.
I'd like to thank a fewlisteners - Jennifer West,
Scott, Bronwen Morgan andLindsay Sell.
Thanks for being paidsubscribers for over three years
now.
To Fiona Hill, thanks for buyinga couple of my old mentor Frank
Fisher's books.
And to you new paid subscriberson Substack, I'll thank you
(01:53):
personally over there.
If you're not yet part of thisgreat community of supporting
listeners, I'd love you to joinus.
Get benefits if you like andhelp keep the show on the road.
Just follow the links in theshow notes, with my great
gratitude On Mongabay's releaselast month.
ur conversation was titled TurnProblems into Solutions for
Culture and Agriculture AcrossAustralia and the Americas.
(02:15):
So, yep, you'll hear me talkabout some of the highlights
from last year's US journey,including more of the personal
stories behind the journey, moredetail on the hope we derived
from listening to people on theground in that election year and
the special exchange I had withAlan Savory on our meeting in
Colorado, nd all that rolls outin a way where Mike and I were
(02:36):
inspiring thoughts in each otherfrom our respective experiences
as we went.
So, setting the scene, here'sMike.
Mike (02:43):
Welcome to the Mongabay Newscast.
I'm your co-host, MikeDiGirolamo, bringing you weekly
conversations with experts,authors, scientists and
activists working on the frontlines of conservation, shining a
light on some of the mostpressing issues facing our
planet and holding people inpower to account.
This podcast is edited onGatticle land.
(03:06):
Today on the newscast, I speakwith Anthony James, creator and
host of the popular podcastfocused on agroecological and
sustainable land use stories.
he RegenNarration.
James has a prime ministerialaward for service to the
international community and isan honorary research fellow at
(03:28):
the University of WesternAustralia.
We recorded this conversationwhile he was in Guatemala during
a tour of the Americas.
In our conversation, Jamesrecounts the stories of communal
collaboration, of restoringland, encouraging more
independent civic participationin politics, and the generosity
and hope he personallyexperienced in the wake of a
(03:51):
contentious and, for many,heart-rending political season
in the United States.
We also discuss the challengethat invasive species present
and highlight some of the moresurprising ways in which humans
and animals alike are adaptingto these challenges, A theme I
previously explored withPulitzer winner Elizabeth
(04:11):
Colbert on this very podcast,but is currently playing out in
a remote homestead known asKachana Station here in
Australia.
In the context of the currentecological breakdown we face
globally.
In the context of the currentecological breakdown we face
globally, James reminds us howmany times the answers we are
(04:32):
seeking are right in front of us.
Anthony James, welcome to theMongabay Newscast.
It's great to have you with us.
AJ (04:39):
Great to be with you too, Mike, Good to meet y.
MD (04:41):
Before we get into anything , can you just give us a a
primer?
What is regeneration?
Why did you start it?
AJ (04:52):
I started it because I'd tell me which thread do I pull.
So I I started to think aboutan old idea I had for a radio
show years prior, but never didit because I was never going to
do a graveyard shift at thesecommunity stations.
But that was where I sort ofdid a course and so I hadn't had
my chops up enough to do it,but I was never going to go
anywhere with it in that sense.
(05:12):
So it sort of sat there andthen a friend said to me one day
maybe you should do a podcast.
And in that moment I'm likeyou're dead right.
So I started in 2017, but itwas very stop-start and in a
bigger context of things I wastrying to do as well, until the
start of 2018.
And that's why the events endedup stopping here, because I
(05:33):
actually had another feeling andit was that I had to get out.
The last event I happened to dowas with Charlie Massey, so
Regenerative Agriculture Doyenin Australia published Call of
the Reed Warbler.
At that time I got on the phoneto him straight away and said
would you come down for thisevent?
He came down and the festivalthat it was going to be at
Sustainable Living Festival inMelbourne brought across two
(05:55):
legends from Western Australia,from the rangelands, southern
rangelands, at Woolene StationFrancis and Dave.
They brought them across.
So it was just another all-starpanel, incredible event, 300
plus people.
And it became a podcast soon too, one of the early ones, because
(06:16):
what happened then was theevents stopped and we thought as
a family, it's time for us toget to know our country properly
.
Let's get out to these peoplerather than ask them to come to
us in the city for a fleetingmoment.
Let's get out to them, learnabout our country really for the
first time in this way, Nowthat we know these people are
out there, bringing it back, gomeet them, see where that leads
(06:36):
us.
And I committed to afortnightly release for the
first time to share what wefound, and I thought by the time
we get back I'll know whetherthat's worth continuing, but
I'll do it for now.
And, yeah, the shorter the longis it?
It grew legs about halfwaythrough.
A couple of shifts in in themetric showed me that, to my
great surprise, that people werestarting to tune in and um and
(06:59):
and wow is even a little epitaphto that story in that, in that
about the time people started totune in was the time we visited
Kachana Station in theKimberley in far northwestern
Australia for the first time andthat, by virtue of the story
since resulted in them being onAustralian Story, famous
(07:19):
Australian TV show on the ABCfor those who don't know further
afield, TV show on the ABC forthose who don't know, Further
Afield just a month ago, andthat's tracking at about 650,000
views so far already.
So it's been very interestingto be part of that.
Mike (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, before we even go further, just for
listeners who aren't aware ofregeneration.
You highlight these incrediblestories of people stewarding the
land in ways that regenerate itor different ways of using the
land.
But this story about KachanaStation, before we even go
(07:58):
further, can you just give ouraudience a primer on what is
occurring here, because it's areally, really fascinating and
incredible story and it's stillongoing as we speak.
So can you tell us?
AJ (08:10):
about it.
Yeah, it is ongoing, in acritical way, in fact, would you
believe.
As we speak, I believe ajudgment is being made, or has
just been made, about the pointyend of what they're trying to
achieve there.
But let me back up first.
Yeah, so here is a stationbigger than the size of
(08:31):
Singapore, which is,historically speaking, a small
station in Australia, like aranch for those.
It's a small one yeah 200,000acres, yeah, but he bought him
and his family.
So Chris Hengler and his familybought the southern fifth of
what was a standard issue backthen a million acres of El
(08:52):
Cuestro, and it's become quite afamous station, a bit of a
theme park these days.
But this was the southern partthat had long been abandoned.
After First Nations had beencleared off it and whitefellas
had abandoned it and this is notan uncommon tale through the
interior, australia was fullypopulated.
Mike (09:12):
Perhaps we'll get to talk more about this.
Unfortunately, I did not get totalk to Anthony further about
this, but it is an incrediblypowerful story for listeners who
may be interested.
Anthony hosted a conversationwith archaeologist Peter Veth,
who describes the evidence thatpoints to Australia having
roughly 6.5 million people inthe tens of thousands of years
(09:36):
before European colonistsarrived.
First nation Australiansmigrated to the interior of the
continent and this was at a timewhen the size of the continent
was around 25 to 50% larger andsea levels were 130 meters over
400 feet, lower than they arenow.
I really recommend giving thatconversation a listen.
(09:57):
Peter Veth, on the regeneration.
AJ (10:00):
The First Nations map of Australia looks more like we're
accustomed to seeing, well,perhaps a United States map with
the different states or, ifwe're thinking more like
countries, western Europe, apatchwork of hundreds of nations
, each with languages of theirown and dialects within, right
across the interior.
So it's very much a colonialartifact that that's an
(10:21):
uninhabitable or harsh, quoteunquote terrain of fact that
that's an uninhabitable or harsh, quote-unquote terrain.
So, but this is what we haddone, have done to a lot of the
interior of australia, and thiswas certainly true of this part
of alquestra which suited thehengla family because they
didn't have much behind them,having fled zimbabwe.
Well, chris had, from hisfamily, fled zimbabwe when the
(10:41):
revolution happened there andwhite folk had to flee their
farms because of the brutalitygoing on there.
And of course that's toacknowledge also the context of
that brutality where the whitefolk got their farms.
But that being the complexityit is, chris ends up in
Switzerland at school, theshorter the longer, but you can
hear more about it on the TVshow and on the podcast too is
(11:05):
that he meets his future wifethere.
They end up moving to Australiatogether.
To this clapped out, I mean, I'mtalking total dust bowl, except
that when Chris saw it in thelate 80s, there was still water
coming through it in the wetseason.
So I was like, okay, there'swater, there's sun, I can work
(11:26):
with it, we're going to get itfor a soil.
They got it.
It's took them two years to getout there because there's no
road access, so it's purely by.
You know, they hauledeverything they could in with
Beesaburden initially, but thenfrom there it's been Aeropane
and more recently helicopter.
There it's been aeroplane andmore recently helicopter.
(11:47):
So they get in there, they,they're sleeping in the back of
the ute with, I think it was twokids.
At that stage maybe they hadthe three or the third one was
soon to come.
Yeah, little kids picking dirtout of their teeth because it's
such a dust bowl.
Yeah, and and fast forward, oh.
And it got worse by the way.
The water had stopped runningby the time they got there,
because it took years toactually get the logistics
(12:08):
straight and move out there,which is to say, importantly,
that the land wasn't coming backwith no one on it.
And this is a very commonpreset for Indigenous folk too.
Country needs people, peopleneed country, country needs
people.
It proved to be true.
Here they stuck at it.
30 years on, it is wow.
(12:30):
It's not an overstatement tosay it's an oasis in the desert,
because around it stilldesertifies, sadly and terribly.
We need to get onto it.
But here is this extraordinaryexemplar, and I'm talking peat
reforming in places.
Now, 30 years down the track,even in the six years I've been
going out there, you're spongyunderfoot and in parts it's like
(12:53):
swamp and in other parts you'vegot he sort of let forest do
its thing, just to see what thatwould look like.
And then, to round out thepointy end of the story where I
started, one of the methodsthey've used.
Well, they've used holisticgrazing and holistic management.
So it's livestock as yourfundamental tool to do this.
To keep ground cover 100%ground cover 100% of the time as
(13:15):
close to that as you can get,is the short of it.
We might pick that apart a bitmore, but that's the short of it
, instead of having to burn itback or have wildfire completely
destroy it which is a given,it's one or the other up there,
basically or this method havelivestock mulch, prune and
fertilize, as they say.
And the thing that Kachana didwas they started to use not only
(13:39):
cattle, but the wild donkeysthat have been designated pests
and shoot on site type of thingresponsibility of the ranchers
to do that.
They thought, well, maybe wecan use them in the same way.
They were social animals.
They were brought here astransport.
Let's re-engage them.
They still would shoot the onesthat didn't re-socialize, if
(13:59):
you like, but the ones that did,they re-established their herd
behavior, the trust, and theywould graze on the upper ranges
Together.
They've made this extraordinarymiracle happen, but the
government has been on them onlythe last few years.
So it's a very peculiar type ofwhy now?
Type of thing.
But they have been goingthrough the mill of a trial of
sorts in the last few years asto whether they can indeed
(14:22):
continue to use the donkeys thisway or will be forced to shoot
them, and that judgment, Ibelieve, has just been passed.
Mike (14:28):
So maybe we can stick an update in your show notes after
we're done anthony emailed meafter our recording and the
judgment on whether the hanglerfamily is ordered to shoot 72
donkeys has been stayed yetagain for now and is pending
further review.
I I found this so justfascinating because it reminded
(14:49):
me a bit of a conversation I washaving with elizabeth colbert,
um.
Author elizabeth colbert yeahabout in invasive species, and
australia, as we know, is isvery, very famous for having a
large amount of introducedinvasive species.
But here it seems like there'sthis, this way of taking what
(15:13):
started out as a problem andusing it as a solution, rather
than trying to control it, in away that is sort of trying to
remedy the problem, the originalproblem, and therefore creating
more problems if that makessense and I was just wondering
from your perspective.
I was wondering from yourperspective, if you think
(15:36):
there's other situations inAustralia where maybe we might
be missing some opportunities touse this situation to our
advantage 100% To me.
AJ (15:49):
There is no doubt now and this is a vital piece of the
puzzle if we are to get anywherein Australia and further afield
for that matter the first thingI think of is an Aboriginal
elder that was also on thepodcast.
Episode 100 was Kachana, sortof the main episode there.
When we went back the secondtime.
Episode 102 was with these guysout on a peninsula in the West
(16:13):
Kimberley, so the other side ofthe Kimberley, and I asked him
at the time because they weretalking about donkeys being on
their property too, and I askedhim at the time so what about
donkeys being pests and so forth?
And what about the donkeys,bruno?
Oh, they're scared.
Yeah, because they're scared.
They see all the way up withthe people Trying to shoot them
(16:33):
too.
Mike (16:34):
And they start shooting them, you know Trying to shoot
them too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AJ (16:49):
The notion that you would regard them, or anything else
including, I might say, colonialsettlers as pests.
I mean, this is where theirextraordinary forbearance comes
towards us as descendants ofthose colonists.
A brutal history, Yet all I'veever received is welcoming and
generosity.
I had to try to make sense ofthat for a while, but it's
(17:12):
because of the kinship structure.
If you're there, you're kin.
There's no sense of beinggreater than and that is what's
got us into this pickle is thishead of the hierarchy type
thinking, and it's why all ourattempted solutions well, I'm
being general here, butessentially we're still going
(17:32):
backwards, aren't we?
Emissions going up andextensions marching on and so
forth, Because they're comingwith that mindset still.
And so, yeah, when it comes tothe actual animals, the other
story I think about, which wasamazing to me, it was a woman
who got in touch from New SouthWales, Brooke Purvis.
Mike (17:49):
It became episode 181, maybe I think.
AJ (17:54):
And she heard the Kachana episode and she got in touch and
said I'm really moved by that.
I wonder if there's some way Ican help, like, if the donkeys
stay on the shoot list, maybethat you can get them to me,
because I started this and thiswas a completely unexpected turn
for her, which is a common taleof people never thinking they'd
be where they are.
I'm included, I'm amongst them.
(18:15):
She says I've started thisthing.
Now it's a donkey rescue thing,and then we sort of
re-socialise them, we train them, and then we train people in
how to handle them, becausethey're amazing stock guardians
and now they're in huge demandover here on the East Coast as
stock guardians because dingoesare a problem.
So our apex predator, akin tosort of a wolf or coyote over
(18:38):
where your families are from,but that's a big issue for as
long as we want to stillparticularly have sheep, okay,
so we do.
It's particularly an issue withsheep predator too, should not
be on the shoot list and isanother necessary.
Well, another form of kinship,and another very helpful form of
(19:03):
kinship too, that station Imentioned, wolleen in the West.
They basically left thecornerstone of their
regeneration because it tookcare of all the goats that were
overgrazing.
Even the excessive kangaroosscared the cats off, got rid of
the feral dogs, actually thesort of the wild dogs that
weren't actually dingoes.
So Brooke tells me a story wherethis is working and it hit me.
(19:25):
I thought, wow, she'sdemonstrating how we could
stitch the Australian continentback together again and not
regard any of these so-calledpest animals.
I mean, might, maybe you'llstill mouth an argument against
the cane tone or something.
Maybe, maybe we could talkabout the details, but in terms
of the boars and the donkeys andthe camels and that that there
(19:47):
are ways to manage them and thedingoes to manage them.
And this is the differenceright To manage, not control,
and not to just leave unmanagedferal, destroying the place.
To manage as part of apatchwork that was akin to what
was here before, even though,yeah, sure, now it's going to be
(20:09):
, with different people,different climate and different
animals and plants and so forth.
Mike (20:14):
But there is a way and different animals and plants and
so forth, but there is a way.
Yeah, there there's got to be.
I mean, and on the cane toad, II heard that there's like
actually a way now that peopleare eating them.
I haven't looked into this yeah, I have not looked into this
myself and I might cut this outif I, if I have this wrong, but
I believe there is now thatthere's now a way that people
(20:38):
are finding a way to eat them.
Like how do you?
The cane toads are poisonous forfolks that are there, are aware
, but there's actually peoplethat are cooking and eating them
now.
So, okay, before you go tryingto eat a cane toad, please don't
do that on your own, becausecane toads are toxic and
preparing them has to be done ina specific way that still isn't
(20:59):
fully understood or researched,but apparently is working for
now.
Professor Philip Hayward fromSouthern Cross University told
the ABC in Darwin last year thateating cane toads can be done
safely and is an economic andenvironmental win-win, as
there's roughly 200 million ofthem in the country.
A food project known as Gulp NThas a method for doing this
(21:21):
that involves freezing the toadand removing the legs for
consumption.
AJ (21:26):
You've just brought it back.
No, you've just drinkedsomething in me, mike, I think.
Oh, did I hear about?
Anyway, what I might be able tocompliment in our speculation
but it's worth looking up, isn'tit is that animals are starting
, so there's now a return.
So Kachana, for example, thiscane toad swept through Western
(21:47):
Australia only recently andgoing east to west.
So it was diabolical as theyhad been everywhere.
But years on, so five years on,maybe now they're starting to
observe the reptiles coming backand the kills of the toads that
the animals do.
So the humans are still killingthem, but the animals do.
They're learning to eitheravoid the animals altogether or
(22:11):
kill them in a particular waywhere they don't succumb, and I
can't remember if I did indeedhear.
Humans are doing the same thing.
Yeah, nature's adapting.
Mike (22:19):
There's, yeah, there was.
So the ibis which, by the way,is not a bin chicken folks, it
is an ibis it has found a way.
It always breaks my heart whenI hear people call them bin
chickens because they're just,they're just so beautiful.
But they found a way to knockthe poison out of the cane toad
before consuming it.
(22:39):
More reporting from the ABChighlights how the ibis grips
the cane toad in its signaturelong beak, flicks the toad
around to stress it out, whichforces the toad to release the
toxins from its shoulder glands.
The ibis will then wash thetoad in a creek or a nearby body
of water, and this is calledthe stress and wash technique.
AJ (23:00):
Yeah, this is the thing, hey , like it's an important thing.
It's like there is a principlethere, and it's one for all of
us who might despair on occasionDon't despair, for even the
worst of things that pass.
Nature's got incredible powerand the nature in us as humans
(23:20):
too to learn and transform.
Mike (23:28):
Hey listeners, thanks as always for tuning into the Manga
Bay Newscast.
As a non-profit news provider,we rely on the generosity of our
readers and listeners likeyourself.
It's the main reason we canbring you independent news and
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Now we always encourage you todonate if you can, but if you
(23:48):
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The more people that know whatwe do, the more we can do.
Thanks again, and now back tothe conversation with Anthony
James.
I couldn't agree more.
This might actually be a goodtime for me to bring up
(24:11):
something with you, but did yousee the new study that just got
released that said about 215million hectares of degraded and
deforested land in the tropicscould regenerate naturally?
I don't know if you saw that,but was keen to hear your
thoughts about it.
If you had seen that study, Ican send it to you.
AJ (24:34):
I haven't seen it.
Please do send it to me.
It's interesting, I think of.
Well, I think of what I justsaid.
In a sense I'm not surprised,but the thing that stood out to
me about what you said I wonderinstantly where the place of
humans is in that.
What is our form of tending,that the country needs people
bit, or is that proving?
(24:55):
I mean, I'm here in Guatemalaright now and they're still
uncovering the old cities of theMayan civilization, and it's
fascinating for what people havelearned just in the 20 years I
haven't been in this country,sort of revisiting it, and it's
interesting because I doremember, though, like these
broad, sweeping cities withsuburbs, would-be suburbs and
(25:20):
the suburbs, sure, we can seethe temples and stuff, but the
suburbs are still largely buriedin jungle and it does go to
show perhaps the tropics aremore adept at not needing us for
periods, not needing humans forperiods, more adept than, say,
at Kachana.
I mean, that's pretty tropicalbut it's dry tropics, so it's
(25:40):
savannah type stuff.
Maybe there's a differencethere.
But I wonder what place peopleare, what role people are having
, including perhaps firstpeoples of those places that may
have never left.
Mike (25:52):
It's.
Yeah, I mean this was reportedon by one of our staff members,
john cannon, and there I believethe study highlighted that when
you have local people on boardwith restoring a piece of forest
, it tends to work better, andPeople you get on board with re
(26:12):
Foresting that land, that's whenyou get the results, but if you
don't, there's there's morechallenge.
Hold up a sec.
I actually encourage you toread the article from john
cannon yourself, as I'm notreally doing it justice here.
But to be a little more clear,the study that john wrote about
looked at areas that couldregenerate naturally on their
(26:34):
own if you do nothing.
However, though and this is thepoint I was trying to make the
study co-author, matt Fagan,told Mongabay quote the only way
a young forest sticks around isif local people are on board
with letting that young foreststick around.
This study just showspossibility.
Persistence is the other halfof it, and persistence is
(26:57):
through policy, it's throughworking with people, it's
through building partnershipsand finding ways for people to
extract money out of youngforest and make them a good
financial investment.
So I mean, that doesn'tsurprise me, and I just think
it's a pattern I'm I'm noticing.
Is that I mean we talked with,I don't know if you um, if you
(27:21):
know, tony ronaldo um and hisstory.
Oh, yes, tony, yeah, in in inniger.
We had him on the podcastlikewise I did too.
AJ (27:29):
Amazing story yeah he is.
Mike (27:31):
I mean, it took him a lot of trial and error, but he had
obviously the buy-in from localcommunities to do this, and now
they're all on board with it.
AJ (27:42):
Yeah, it's great.
It's a great story, tony'sstory, and it is instructive.
Mike (27:47):
Since you mentioned you're in Guatemala, I was going to
ask you what are you working onin the Americas right now?
What are some of the moreamazing things that you have
noticed since you've been overthere?
AJ (27:59):
So before we got to Guatemala so we've been here a
couple of weeks now because Iused to live here 20 years ago
and I was being that close,relatively speaking, having
traveled the States for the lastseven months with the podcast
had to come and visit, and now,with the family in tow, it's
quite a special homecoming.
But the seven months across theStates was the big thing for a
(28:21):
lot of reasons, including wehadn't been overseas for nearly
two decades.
We drew a line under that sortof travel for climate and equity
reasons, leave futuregenerations to have a chance of
doing some of it, because we'dhad a fill.
But out of the podcastexperience over six years the
short of it is the calls hadstarted to mount and the feeling
(28:41):
that it could be of valuestarted to grow.
So from April we were travelingacross the states with the
podcast and there are so manythings that were so interesting,
as much because it was theelection year that it was too
right.
And so in a sense, yes, I saw.
We saw extraordinaryregeneration of land and culture
(29:02):
, first Nations and other fromdesolation in many cases.
We saw next generations takingup the mantle and sort of
mentorship structures building,saw trust situations, bringing
land access to people or landreturn to people, all these
sorts of things, but in a sense,the biggest thing I saw,
(29:25):
overarchingly I mean, I shouldadd, I even saw community
movements which summed to reallylooking to depolarize the
politics and enable people torun for office who were
community people, not careerpoliticians, much less beholden
to such a strong adversarial andcorporate political structure,
let alone media structure.
So I found multiple facets of amovement on that front and one
(29:50):
in particular captured myimagination because they're only
18 months running, born out ofa young woman's experience in
Maine who became the youngestever senator, female senator
elected there but then didn'trun again to actually set up a
non-profit that helped othersrun.
They just had 38 of theiralumni inside 18 months run for
office in this election and manyof them got voted for by Trump
(30:16):
voters.
So there's a fascinating thingcoming out of that, which I'm
still probing, but it justsuggests which is what we found
across the country.
There are so many layers ofnuance to what is very often
portrayed as a utterly polarizedand cleanly binary situation
(30:39):
Trump, republican, bad lunaticsin rural areas who vote for them
bad, and city people who areeducated voting Democrat.
And well, wouldn't that havebeen good if they won, type
thing.
But I saw so many layers ofnuance in this and of course
we've just seen regenerativeagriculture legends appointed to
(31:00):
advisory positions or otheraround agriculture and health in
Trump's portfolio.
Now I'm not advocating for aTrump administration.
I still do feel like Chloe,that woman in Maine felt that
he's the violent rhetoric.
He as a character to me playsas much into the portrayal and
(31:21):
exploitation of division asanybody else that I lament on
both of those sides right, and Ithink the sides is the problem.
So when I see these communityefforts coming up, as is
happening in Australia, ofcourse, which you'll know too
well with the independents, andthis is a thing we talked about
with a bunch of people in theStates too, that sure, different
system, but there's peopleworking at those aspects of the
(31:42):
system too, what can enable thetranscending of the nasty,
exploitative politics.
So we saw plenty of that and insome, a human spirit that we
didn't expect, that was sharedacross the political divide and
other divides right across thecountry, urban, rural, right
(32:02):
across the states.
To us was the biggest pictureof all.
We didn't expect suchgenerosity and spirit and hope,
though tested hope.
Many people said to us when wereflected back some of our
observations well, thank you.
I needed to hear this about mycountry.
(32:23):
I'd almost given up and wasbuying the story that we're shot
and awful by nature, likemostly, and so to me the biggest
story is that and where I sawit happen.
Just to round out my answer toyour question, mike was in
(32:44):
something that I've witnessed inAustralia too and it's almost
like a people whispery.
I put that to what it said mejokingly, but I've seen people
work with communities that areutterly divided.
Judy Schwartz wrote it up in theReindeer Chronicles, even one
of these stories, and I went onto meet the person she wrote up,
which was a guy called JeffGoble who facilitated a process
(33:06):
with community in New Mexico,just for one example, and they
would come to arms and the landreflected it.
It was shot and in three days Iremember her writing this up
she's observing a day and a halfin.
She's seen the nature of theconflicts, the nature of the
people, the defensiveness, allthe bloodletting, all this stuff
(33:27):
.
She's like there's no way thisis coming out with a resolution
and some form of conciliation inthree days.
Yet it did, and then I went toJeff in New Mexico and saw a
process in person of a differentkind on homelessness.
How do we solve homelessness,as it were, before it gets
totally out of hand in NewMexico?
(33:49):
And this was a one-day processthat I hastened away.
I didn't even get through theagenda.
So this became the subject of apodcast episode, because the
next day I'm like Jeff, I didn'teven get through the agenda.
So this became the subject of apodcast episode, because the
next day I'm like Jeff, I didn'teven get through the agenda.
How would people so enam roomthat?
(34:17):
Some people who are moreaction-oriented or less
interested in the warm andfuzzies and they were
self-described that way at theoutset those people are going to
be frustrated.
They spent another day and itdidn't get through to resolution
.
They were ecstatic about theprocess and, sure enough, within
weeks afterwards there wasamazing, unprecedented media
coverage, half a million dollarson the table and some land
(34:40):
bequeathed to start to take somesteps and they weren't brought
up at the time.
So there's something about theseprocesses that create the
conditions out of which thisstuff came, and this is the same
thing I hear from ranchers onthe land they create the
conditions out of which thestuff came, and this is the same
thing I hear from ranchers onthe land, they create the
conditions out of which theregeneration comes.
(35:00):
And that's the huge thing thatI've observed, whether it be
with the people part of natureor the land part of nature or
whatever is that theme, and thatagain, there are ways we can do
it.
It's not what you'll see on themedia, it's not what you get
from the major political parties, but it is a buzz across all of
(35:22):
those domains.
What if we get on that wagon,more of us, get skilled up in
these ways and make more of thathappen?
I mean, I wonder what criticalthresholds we might be able to
tip in the positive directionand surprise ourselves there is.
Mike (35:42):
There does seem to be this sort of and just anecdotally,
me noticing more communitiestaking things into their own
hands, such as, yeah, like, likedifferent cities getting rid of
of ridiculous zoning laws thatdon't allow them to build homes
in in certain places, or gettingrid of, like, minimum parking
(36:04):
requirements, which isresponsible for a bunch of
pavement and asphalt being putdown on on land that that is
critical for biodiversity, solike getting rid of those things
.
But it's not happening on anational scale, it's happening
locally.
Um, so, yeah, I, I do, I do seeand witness things like that.
Yeah, more so, more so, in caseyeah, what would?
AJ (36:28):
be the australian case, where, where, where.
Because of the transformationin our national parliament.
It's interesting, thetransformation in the states
transformation maybe it's earlyto say that, but that hint of
change because, by the way, abunch of those 38 candidates
that came out of that communityworkshopping that ran, I think
all one and and another personwho hadn't been through it.
(36:51):
That's connected with it.
One is an independent in mainefor fourth term running.
So even an independent can winin the United States electoral
system at state level at least.
But in Australia thecommunity-minded transformation
in our parliament has happenedat a federal level,
interestingly, not at local orstate.
(37:12):
So sure, there'll be good localestate stuff happening too, but
in terms of a change in the wayour actual primary parliament
works, that's happening at anational level in Australia.
So it's to say let's not hedgeourselves in with where it can
and can't happen, just look outfor the opportunities based on
(37:33):
wherever we are and what we canwork with.
But in general I totally agreewith you, and I think it's as
much because, as Alan Savorysaid to me the other day, I met
him in Denver just briefly afterthe Regenerate conference there
and he said regenerativeagriculture, holistic raising,
it's coming on everywhere.
But he lamented the fact thatit's still so marginal and I
(37:54):
know Charlie Massey is lamentingthis too, because we've seen
the power of the extractivesuper organism, if you will
growth economy, that wholemandate double down, go faster,
thinking.
What it's missing is to goharder, not to take heed.
So I think that is where it isleaving people to go.
(38:16):
Okay, well, let's just create adifferent way and in our case,
in Australia, amazingly, I stillcan't believe it.
It's a transformation not manysaw coming a few years ago.
That's reaching up into ournational parliament Great, but
yeah, I think the good oldgrassroots is and just people
(38:36):
taking it on themselves becausewhat else are you going to do at
this stage is absolutely theway, and that is bubbling up
everywhere.
So where that leads us to, Ithink if more of us can get
involved and more of us who canback it, yeah, we'll see.
Mike (38:56):
Before we get to the end here, I do want to try and pick
your brain a bit about and thisis a broad question and I
understand it's going to vary bycase by case practice that
really just struck you, that youthink is being underutilized
either in the US or in Australia.
(39:20):
That has a lot of potentialthat you really wish more people
knew about.
AJ (39:26):
Yeah, totally.
In a way it's again which theydid pull.
There'd be a number.
I mean, I think, on top of whatwe said before about so-called
pest or invasive species and ina biodiversity crisis that we
would continue to play God withthat is almost beggar's belief
(39:47):
in a sense.
Let's say, where whitefellas?
So, for example, I'll say theHaggerty family in the Wheat
Bolt of Western Australia.
I'll mention them because as anexample of where grassroots
efforts end up breaking through,they've just been awarded the
Western Australian Australiansof the Year Award.
Now they go in the big one, theAustralian of the Year Award
(40:11):
that gets awarded in Januarynext year after 30 years of
pioneering right.
But it's a hint of how thingsare changing next year After 30
years of pioneering right.
But it's a hint of how thingsare changing.
They've only recently,relatively recently, connected
with First Nations and what hascome out of that connection
already in like a couple ofshort years, is extraordinary.
It's on the podcast, it can befound, but it's to say that the
(40:33):
fear that still commonly willstop people who have got land
through the colonial system fromengaging, for fear that they'll
lose it or whatever thebenefits on offer, the rewards
on offer are immense in allrespects in how the land works,
in how the cultural stories getshared and the healing that
happens from that.
(40:54):
Oh that's huge.
And obviously there's a 50,000,60,000 year heritage in
Australia alone, let aloneanywhere else.
I think of the actual methodson the ground, animal led in
some cases to a degree againthat I just couldn't believe
what I was seeing, like animalsshowing farmers where to go, not
(41:15):
the other way around.
And in some cases, wherefarmers go but it's still dirt
over there, what are you goingthere for?
But they inoculated with theirfertilizer.
Their microbiome was so engagedover so long.
Because these are animals thatdon't ship off right, they ship
off some but they kept themicrobiome in exchange with the
(41:36):
land developing over thesedecades.
These pioneers and and thenthat will spread to a different
part of the land.
That looks shot and that shouldbe the last place.
You put more animals and andtriggers the, the, the dormant
microbiome or seed or whateverin in those parts.
So even animal in parts, butcertainly animal-utilized.
And then there's that groundcover piece, hey, that I
(41:59):
witnessed so starkly at Kachana,where even Indigenous folk we
could speculate where they gotexpert with fire.
Did they need to use it as muchas they did.
I mean, this is what you startto wonder because of the
megafauna that were lost on bothour continents, right, right,
yeah, that perhaps there's a wayfor the large herbivores of
(42:21):
today, the new megafauna, asChris Hengler would call it, to
mean we can use fire moreselectively with animals and so
not need to kill all them andleave more cover on the ground
without it getting to be firebait and so more microbiome
thriving underneath andultimately, fungi and et cetera,
(42:43):
et cetera.
All these things we're learningnow, so that 100% ground cover
100% of the time sort of holygrail.
I mean we could go on, butthere's some of the stuff that's
really hit me and, of course,they're all interlinked and in
that sense, maybe we'll figureout there's an overarching thing
, answer to your question thatjust covers it all, or we might
(43:03):
just come up with another fewthings that are interlinked with
those, but there's some of thelevels and layers that are just
proving to again show ways that,even in places you least expect
it, ultimately, once they startto pick up pace, restore land
and people and community, right,people come back out to these
(43:26):
places and people don't be soangry as the Trump voters in
Wisconsin or something.
You know that perhaps do feel abit vengeful or neglected.
I'd say vengeful would be sad,neglected.
Fair enough in many ways, yeah.
Yeah that there's a way to mendthose things in surprisingly
quick timeframes if we startbarking up the right trees a bit
(43:48):
more.
Mike (43:50):
Well, Anthony, where can listeners learn more about your
work and listen to some of yourepisodes?
AJ (43:58):
Thanks, mike.
Yeah, certainly, if anyone'sinterested, the podcast is the
main outlet probably going tocreate a Sub stack.
I'm going to add to the substack.
Mike (44:06):
Get on the Su stack train.
AJ (44:07):
Yes, that's right.
I've been wondering whether Ishould or not, but I probably
will, because I feel likethere's stories between the
stories, which is why it's alsoso great to speak to you.
You get to flesh some of thoseout, so I might do some of that
too.
But there's certainly a website, RegenNarration.
com with a little play on theword narration, like story
RegenNarration, and then thepodcast wherever you find
(44:30):
podcasts.
Mike (44:31):
Well, Anthony, it was a pleasure speaking with you.
Safe travels, back toAustralia, whenever it is that
you, when you come back here.
AJ (44:39):
Thanks, mike.
I anticipate it'll be sort ofmid next year.
We might get back into theStates after we've traveled
around Central America a littlebit.
But thank you, it's been agreat pleasure chatting with you
too, mate, and love your work.
Power to you.
Mongabay Newscast's host, mikeDiGirolamo, or more on Mike and
(45:15):
Mongabay, the episodes on theHaggerty family's connecting
with First Nations from back inthe 90s through to the farm
today, and the episode withBruno Dan n that Mike patched in
.
ee the links in the show notes.
And oh, I did end up launchinga Substack column too, so I've
linked to that as well, if youfancy a read.
As usual, I'll have more forsubscribing members soon, and
(45:36):
great thanks for making thisepisode possible.
You can join this greatcommunity of listeners by
heading to the website or theshow notes and following the
prompts.
Thanks a lot.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
Mike (45:48):
Thank you.
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