August 13, 2025 • 56 mins
Welcome to the second and final part of this special episode from the Wind River Reservation with Jason Baldes, founder and ED of the Wind River Tribal Buffalo Initiative, and VP of the InterTribal Buffalo Council.
The full episode was played more than most in its first week, but given it was a little over two hours in length, I also wanted to offer it in distinct parts, for those of you who prefer to listen to it that way.
We pick it up here as we move through some hilarious and powerful encounters with the buffalo. From feeding Ruby the orphan buffalo and her little horse mate, to meeting a couple of big bulls, on to what ends up being an incredible period of time face to face with the herd.
As always, you can browse a list of chapters and navigate that way if you like.
If you've come here first, you might like to start with Part 1, released a couple of days ago. That'll give more context to the extraordinary story unfolding here. But this part stands alone pretty well too.
ICYMI, you can also catch our time on arrival at the Initiative in episode 268 (more photos on that web page too), where we were welcomed by two of the brilliant young staff there, Xavier Michael-Young (Seminole man bringing his economics, finance and cultural tourism expertise, having been drawn to Wind River by the buffalo), and Taylar Dawn Stagner (award-winning journalist, enrolled member of the Cheyenne Arapaho Tribes of Oklahoma and an Eastern Shoshone descendant, and now the Initiative’s new Community Engagement Director).
Recorded 16 September 2025 at the Wind River Reservation, home of the Eastern Shoshone and Arapaho Nations, at the foot of the Rocky Mountains in current day Wyoming.
Title image by Anthony James. For more behind the scenes, and to help keep the show on the road, become a supporting listener below.
Pre-roll music: Heartland Rebel, by Steven Beddall (sourced from Artlist).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason (00:02):
How long have you been over here in the States?
About a year, about a year.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Yeah.
AJ (00:08):
We've been longer away from home, but we spent a couple of
two or three months in Guatemalaas well.
Oh yeah, because I used to livedown there for a period of time
when I was in my 20s.
Jason (00:19):
Yeah.
AJ (00:20):
Very cool.
Yeah, it's been superinteresting.
I mean all the more, I guess,because it's in the crucible of
the moment.
Jason (00:29):
Yeah.
AJ (00:30):
Pre and post election.
But man, the stories like this,they're just yeah.
Jason (00:36):
I think about this quite often, in that, you know, I keep
up in the news, I pay attentionto what's going on in the world
and I tell you I get a littlebit sad and depressed about that
.
But I can look out the window,or I can go for a ride, I can go
for a drive, and this is thebest thing happening on the
(00:56):
entire planet, and so I'm alwaysconstantly reassured that
everything's fine.
Yes, I feel the same way.
Through this way, I'm alwaysconstantly reassured that
everything's fine.
AJ (01:05):
Yes, I feel the same way through this way.
I just go meet the next awesomeperson, like you know,
pentaroop in Montana, and go manit's everywhere.
Because it is right, it is,this is real.
Jason (01:16):
This is real, this is tangible.
You can see it, you can smellit, you can taste it.
What's that?
AJ (01:21):
bird that just came out of the Snape.
I've seen a bit of thathappening while I've been
talking.
Yeah, great grass cover.
Yeah, very cool looking bird.
Jason (01:33):
So this is the fence line .
What we're getting ready tocross was the original 300 acres
.
Oh, wow, okay, so you see theold posts, and so we pulled out
the old fence.
Hey, so there's been fiveproperties that have been pieced
together and all the interiorfence is pulled out, so that way
they can move through withoutany damn fences in their way I
(01:56):
love.
And so we left them.
AJ (01:58):
Exactly.
Jason (01:58):
So you can see the evidence of it.
Yes, but also they can use itas scratch posts.
Ah perfect, and so then youknow, but yeah, I like to be
able to look at it and be likeyou know, took that crap down
Right on.
And that's the fence we put up.
We put that up in 2015 tocontain this 300 acres, but
after we got that land overthere, that fence came out, even
(02:21):
though we paid for it to go in.
AJ (02:22):
Yeah, the things you gotta do eh there, and that fence came
out even though we paid for itto go in.
Jason (02:27):
Yeah, the things you've got to do, eh yeah, you've got
to put fence up and take it down.
But you know, we raise themoney.
It's not mine.
It's like we'll raise as muchas it takes.
Well, that's cool, it's great.
Even if I had the money, Iwould spend it Well, exactly,
but it's not.
Why do I got to be stingy overhow it gets spent?
It's all for the buffalo.
AJ (02:44):
I feel the same way, and the cool thing is, the people or at
least some of these people thatdo have the money feel the same
way.
Jason (02:50):
That's right, and I've been fortunate to meet a few of
them.
Well, maybe two of them.
There we go.
I need about five or six more,that's right.
AJ (03:05):
Well, there's the call.
You can count them.
On one hand, I know that Mostpeople are pretty selfish.
Jason (03:07):
Well, again, look what you can do with one or two
people just putting their handup?
AJ (03:08):
Yeah, what if five or six did?
Yeah, I think of that For thosewho are in that position where
you can man the rewards.
Jason (03:18):
Yeah, and then you get organizations too.
So you've got individuals, youget organizations, and then
you've got individuals, you'vegot organizations, and then
you've got those organizationsthat have the networks, and so
I've got an incredible network,greg.
AJ (03:32):
Yeah.
Jason (03:33):
They just keep coming.
Yeah, that's cool, like this isbringing out all of the
greatest people in the world tocome here and see it, and that's
awesome.
Our allies are just growing thepeople who don't like it and
the people who want to complainabout it.
They don't come here to visit,which is more the pity, in a way
(03:55):
it is.
AJ (03:56):
That's kind of who you need to reach so that they could
spread that misinformation.
Well, that's right, and how canyou judge if you don't know it?
So come and find out.
Come learn something.
There's a bit of controversyaround the American prairie too,
obviously, where Pedro is, andsame thing, and I think he's
managing it, along with someothers, reasonably well and
they're trying to get better atit.
(04:17):
Just actually get to know eachother.
Don't just be talking from overthe fence of stuff you don't
know.
Yeah, from both sides.
You know about ranches andabout the prairie.
Yeah, it's an interesting thing.
You said before, though, jason,about some perception that it's
it's your thing and, as a, as afounder and an instigator,
(04:39):
that's got to be a common lotlike.
But how do you?
I mean, you've got yourrationale, but I guess what's
your lived experience of tryingto disavow that it's not about
you?
I mean, I guess creating anon-profit is part of that.
Huh, because you're just one ofa managing body yeah, yeah, you
diversify leadership anddecision making.
Jason (05:00):
It's not all just me, and for a period of time it was.
But you know, truth prevailsand lies have a way of filtering
themselves out over time.
So I mean I can explain topeople what I'm doing and what
my goals and what I envisionthis.
(05:22):
But if they don't believe methen I don't need to spend any
more time trying to convincethem, because over time they
will see and I'm not trying tochange everybody's mind on what
maybe they feel about me.
I want the work to speak foritself and it has.
(05:51):
You know, xavier and Taylor andAlbert and Pam and the crew now
associated with it.
So I mean I have to be able tonot let negativity and naysayers
, misconceptions and lies affectme.
So I have to kind of do somedeep down kind of soul searching
(06:15):
myself to call it out formyself when it's there.
Yeah, I don't need that energyto drain me any more than what I
already do drains me.
Yes, and if I know what I'mdoing is, is, is the right thing
(06:35):
for the buffalo, it's the rightthing for our community, it's
the right thing for ournon-profit and our organization,
then that's, that's okay withme, like because if it ever gets
called into question or, youknow, people bring it back up, I
(06:56):
think the evidence will be bethere to where the lies won't
make sense anymore.
I believe that again, becauseit's real.
To where the lies won't makesense anymore.
I believe that.
AJ (07:07):
Again, because it's real.
Yeah, you can manufacturestories, obviously, like, yeah,
what's real.
There's another saying amongstAboriginal folk some Aboriginal
folk I was spoken to back inAustralia that they never forgot
where the water was.
Yeah, just anchored to what'sreal.
Yeah, but yeah, noting thoughthat you, you have to catch
yourself in it occasionally anduh yeah, some, some things you
(07:30):
can.
Jason (07:31):
Some things will bother me.
I've been bothered by somethings.
People have said, yep, and inhindsight, or even in having
some foresight, to to not notengage.
Do not let that energy in,because it can drain you real
fast if you let it.
And I have to be reminded aboutthat vote, you know 90 to seven
(07:53):
.
AJ (07:54):
Overwhelming support is out there.
Jason (07:56):
Just keep doing it, just keep going.
And then oftentimes I thinkabout these little old Shoshone
grandmas that when we broughtthe first 10 buffalo they came
up and they said you keep doingwhat you're doing, don't listen
to anybody.
And I tell you, if a littleShoshone grandma's telling me to
keep doing it, I sure as heckwouldn't keep doing it, because
(08:18):
it's them that hold on to thosebeliefs and values that many of
our own people forgotten tothose beliefs and values that
many of our own people forgotten.
And if you look out here and thebuffalo are doing just fine,
everything is fine.
We get caught up in our humanstuff all the time.
But if the land is expanding,the buffalo are expanding,
(08:39):
they're having babies, we aredoing fine.
We can't get confused about ourhuman stuff because the goal is
them, the buffalo.
It's a hell of a sight, jasonthe snow-capped mountains and
rolling hills and Seven morerange units and these buffalo
(09:01):
will be able to get to the topof there.
Is that right?
Yeah, wow, about 400,000 acres,maybe a little more.
It's something to behold, maybein the next eight to ten years,
hopefully in the next three tofive years, I've got two more
range units next door to thisone and then we'd have 70,000
(09:22):
acres out there, and that 70,000is actually contained by two
highways.
So that's practicality wise,makes sense as a next feasible,
achievable goal?
AJ (09:36):
This bit's treed, this is the waterway here, I guess yeah
this is the Wind River.
Jason (09:41):
This is the riparian area for the water river bottom, so
the Wind River headwaters are upthere, and then it comes down
through here and goes over byRiverton and flows north through
Wind River Canyon.
Once it gets through Wind RiverCanyon it changes name from the
Wind River to the Bighorn andthat's why it's referred to as
(10:05):
the Big Horn case.
Oh right, the water rights caseGot it Is because it was
adjudicated in Thermopolis,where the river is called the
Big Horn Right, but I almostthink that they did that on
purpose to draw attention awayfrom the what they did here.
AJ (10:20):
It matters, doesn't it?
Yeah, and this is old EasternShoshone lands as well.
Jason (10:28):
traditional lands- oh yeah, our reservation was 44
million acres in 1863.
In 1868 it was reduced by 42million acres.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
What.
AJ (10:41):
And what instigated that?
Did they find some minerals orsomething?
Jason (10:45):
Oregon Trail, santa Fe Trail, right Pony Express.
They all came right to theShoshone.
AJ (10:53):
Reservation.
That's another one of thesestories, hey of you're already
into a reservation context andeven then you're stripped of
that, and then after that theywere stripped of land even
further.
Jason (11:05):
Really, yeah, I could go through a timeline with you of
all of the steps, all of thosehistorical decisions that have
resulted in the way it is now.
AJ (11:21):
What's your experience of still being anchored, albeit at
2 million anchors, but to thattraditional land.
Jason (11:30):
The lands that we were on and utilized.
We've always had a reciprocalrelationship with kind of like
what we're referring to withthis buffalo, but it has to do
with our foods.
So the lands that we were onobviously provided all the
(11:54):
sustenance that we needed, andfor us Shoshone people that was
obviously the buffalo, but it'salso in roots and plants and
berries which comprised ourancestral traditional diet.
Certain seasons we would moveto different areas to hunt and
(12:15):
harvest different foods.
That was tied to the medicinewheel represents spring, summer,
fall, winter.
Well, we had different foods forevery season, which meant we
needed to travel to a differentplace or different elevation
every season.
So in the summer months we usedto move to the mountain and we
(12:38):
would hunt and harvest food upthere throughout the summer.
Then come fall and winter,winter time that would be time
to move low elevation.
That changed our foods and whatwe would hunt and gather.
So, out of the big 44 millionacre reservation, imagine the
(12:59):
amount of resources that youcould hunt and gather and
sustain yourselves.
Well, when you go from a 44million acre to a two million
acre reservation and then youstart to hunt year round, you
deplete the wildlife.
And then you have westwardexpansion coming in telling you
(13:19):
that now you have to becomefarmers and ranchers.
The buffalo are gone, then yourely on the federal government
for commodity like flour, sugarand salt.
So our relationship with theland changed with colonization.
It becomes sedentary.
They put us in villages, theyput us in square boxes that we
(13:40):
couldn't move from.
So not a lot of us.
I remember as a youngster weused to go stay in the summer up
in the mountains for severalcouple months Really, and a lot
of families used to do that, andwe'd gather firewood and we'd
gather resources to prepare forwinter, and so then we'd bring
that stuff down and then yeah.
(14:01):
So I think that we're trying tofind our way back to that
possibly.
Yeah, I mean, I am, yeah, speakfor myself, yeah, but I see it.
I see it in some of our youngpeople that are continuing to
(14:23):
practice our ceremonies.
We've got young people going inand learning the songs.
It's there, it's alive.
It's not abundant, but it'salive.
AJ (14:38):
Have you learned much about your ancestry further back.
Jason (14:44):
Well, both of my parents are Shoshone, so on my mom's
side we come from a prominentfamily.
On my dad's side he's enrolledShoshone.
But my dad's grandpa came fromIsleta Pueblo and his name was
(15:06):
Claude Moya and he had witnesseda murder, him and his cousin,
and they rode horses north toWyoming and his cousin was shot
off of the horse and so, toescape persecution, my
great-grandpa took his mother'smaiden name, which was Valdez,
and he changed the V to a B andthe Z to an S.
(15:26):
I was wondering about the S.
So my last name comes fromClaude Moya, but he was from
Isla de Pueblo, new Mexico, andhe married a Mexican lady and
she came from the Perea family,both from here, but more of a
Mexican and Pueblo lineage.
(15:48):
Yeah, but the Shoshone family,the weed family my mom comes
from, is a prominent family here.
My great-grandpa on my mom'sside was a scalper custer.
His name was Rabbit Tail.
He was at the Big Horn.
Wow.
My great-grandpa on my mom'sside was a scowl for Custer.
His name was Rabbit Tail.
He was at the Big Horn.
Wow, yeah, so that's just acouple of generations ago.
(16:13):
Yeah, yeah, before that, youknow, we were buffalo people.
We lived in lodges, we hunted,fish gathered, but my grandma
and grandpa went through theboarding school and so the
language stopped with them.
They didn't teach my aunts anduncles the language because of
what they went through.
So it was, my grandma andgrandpa were the last fluent
(16:34):
speakers.
Anything happening on thatfront?
Yeah, we have other families inthe tribe that are more
prominent or have the languagemore intact, and then our
schools, our schools areteaching immersion language and
(16:57):
we're doing our best, you know,out of out of only 5,000
Shoshones you know our number ofelders is decreasing rapidly.
AJ (17:07):
Yeah, there's a moment in time Again.
Same back home for the ones whoare still with us.
Jason (17:15):
Yeah, and we lost a lot during COVID, really yeah.
AJ (17:20):
You know, we were with the Osage back in Oklahoma and Chief
Standing Bear there showed uson his phone what some of the
young folk had designed in anapp with language.
So some of these kids aretexting each other Young people
I don't know how young, buttexting each other in their
language.
Jason (17:40):
That's cool, isn't that cool?
We've got a language app.
All tribes here have a languageapp, really but they're not
like Duolingo.
I guess there's not enoughresources into them to actually
have them be a great tool.
They're more like a dictionary.
If you want to know a word.
(18:00):
You can look it up, but it'snot like you can learn it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
You know a really interactive lap like Duolingo.
Jason (18:07):
I've practiced my Spanish and stuff on there, so if we
had something like that, thatwould be helpful, but apparently
Navajo is on Duolingo, are they?
AJ (18:18):
Yeah, yes, he found it he started learning Navajo.
Jason (18:21):
Ojibwe is probably going to be on there soon.
It's the big linguistic groupslike Cree, yes, when they've got
big, like you know a lot ofspeakers Right.
We've got maybe 20 speakersleft.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, wow.
Jason (18:32):
Look at this buffalo hair right here.
AJ (18:34):
You should grab that piece.
Oh yeah.
That is cool, that's a good one.
Jason (18:42):
I yeah, they're losing their winter coat Buffalo has.
This is second warmest naturalfiber on the continent, only
behind muskox.
AJ (18:50):
It's beautiful, isn't it?
Jason (18:52):
Buffalo has 17,000 hairs per square inch more than twice
what a cow has Biggest belief.
AJ (18:58):
That's gorgeous.
Jason (19:01):
Yeah, we gather it up and rope out of it.
We give a little bit to kidswhen they're here.
They can always take a piece ofbuffalo home with them.
AJ (19:14):
That's awesome.
So that ancestry you'refamiliar with, do you feel a
particular connection to anyaspect of it, like in terms of
being able to spot it inyourself and what's become of
your life?
Jason (19:32):
Oh, I don't.
I think I've always felt alittle bit lost and always
trying to find a piece of myselfand probably was always looking
for some level of acceptancethat I maybe I'm
overcompensating for.
Uh, because I was.
(19:53):
I was.
I was a child born out of anaffair, so I'm half.
With all my siblings I'm theonly only one I'm the youngest
of nine, but I don't have a fullsibling and I've always kind of
felt a little bit isolated frommy family members, because I
(20:13):
was a bit unique and I grew upwith two loving moms.
I had two mothers so I'vealways felt like double blessed
that both of my moms loved me mystepmother, my biological
mother and so I've kind ofalways been just a little bit
out of place, but I always knewI wanted to do good work and I
(20:35):
didn't know what that lookedlike Really.
How far back can we talk?
Like when you were very, verysmall.
I remember just thinking I justwant to do something good and
that's why I like to do art.
And so when I was growing up,you know, I just liked to work
with my hands and make coolstuff and do painting and
drawing.
I like to carve now when I canfind the time, but that eats up
(20:59):
a lot of hours, so I don't havethat.
But the, yeah, I remember froma young age just thinking just
do something good.
I didn't know what that lookedlike, maybe until I was about 26
.
And then I knew it was waterand buffalo.
And then you know thatexperience in Africa, coming
home, still being a knuckleheadfor a while and then just
(21:21):
finally being like you know it'stime to actually get serious
about what it is I want to do.
So I did, and I went to schooland I buckled down for 10 years
to get my degrees and to comehome and just do this.
But I knew that it was going totake the academic credentials
(21:42):
to get it.
You know, yeah, what are youdoing up there?
See my there's the little horse.
Yeah, he's gonna come down here.
I gotta go up there first.
Oh buddy, it's gorgeous.
We'll get to see him prettyclose.
See, I gotta go up and get hislittle bottle ready.
(22:03):
And there's the buffalo calf.
We'll go up and get his littlebottle ready.
And there's the buffalo calf.
We'll go up and get her bottleready and then I'll bring him
down here.
So cool, I've got another horseand mare.
I'm trying to keep that littlehorse together with a little one
so he can learn how to be ahorse.
There's another little horseand mare in here.
(22:25):
So I'm gonna, you can hang out,I'm gonna run in real quick,
all right, and I'm gonna fixtheir bottle and I'll be right
out, you bet.
And then we're gonna.
Then they'll follow us downthere.
Cool, but right now they'regonna be a bit.
They get a little bit nosyright now.
Hello, hold on.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
You all good.
Jason (22:53):
Yeah, we got to go down below All right.
Come on, let's go, come on.
AJ (23:01):
Come on, let's go.
Is it buffalo milk or camu Lamb?
Jason (23:07):
Lamb.
Yeah, it's dehydrated lamb'smilk which is higher in fat.
This is for the horse, thatone's for the buffalo.
Oh yeah, I had to rig up acooler so that the horse could
eat while I'm doing the Buffalo.
Come on, come on, sandoon.
(23:37):
Come on, come on, come on Igloomama.
AJ (23:59):
That's outstanding.
That's what moms have to dealwith, huh.
Jason (24:08):
Yeah so how much milk would a normal baby bottle of
per day?
Per day?
AJ (24:17):
That one goes about three of those bottles, about three of
those per day.
Per day, that one goes aboutthree of those bottles.
Jason (24:21):
About three of these bottles.
Yeah Wow, morning, lunch anddinner.
She got fed at six this morning.
This is her second feeding.
She'll get another one thisafternoon and then another one
tonight.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Isn't that six pints too?
Jason (24:32):
Yeah so 18?
18 pints.
Oh, three liters, 6 pints.
Yeah, instincts, eh yeah,instinct, that's the way you
want it.
AJ (24:48):
You're getting that photo.
Yes, sir, you gotta make itcomfortable for her.
Jason (24:52):
You're never gonna feed her the other way now.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Well, I have been.
I going to feed her the otherway now.
Jason (24:59):
Well, I have been.
I've been feeding her off tothe side, but when she gets a
little picky then I'llaccommodate a little more.
But she's about good, so sheonly drank about this much for
now.
He drinks more frequently thanshe does, but I've been putting
(25:20):
them in here for the last threenights now.
He drinks more frequently thanshe does, but I've been putting
them in here for the last threenights now, but I don't like
locking them in here during theday, so I let them run around,
but with his cooler down here.
If they go up there then hedoesn't get to eat because he
doesn't quite associate comingback down here to eat.
Yeah, not, not, not.
Not every day do you have alittle horse and buffalo being
raised together?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
so, species wise, they the little buffalo not very
, I mean trying to drink fromthe horse like you see, your
horns are coming in reallygrowth right must be huge, huh.
AJ (25:54):
I'm telling these guys, they have to be 180 kilos by the
beginning of winter.
Jason (25:59):
Yeah right, yeah yeah, these are the orphans.
AJ (26:04):
And this is Ruby.
Right, yeah, this is Ruby andher twin.
Jason (26:08):
Her twin is out there, don't know which one it is,
can't tell.
I mean, you can see how muchthey look like yeah true, but
she's tracking, all right, yeah.
AJ (26:16):
Yeah, she's strong.
Jason (26:18):
When she was the first two days, we had to intubate her
.
She didn't know how to eat,which could have been the reason
why she was abandoned too.
Yeah, we had to intubate her,so you had to put the tube down
her throat and make sure she wasgetting milk.
And then she got strong enoughto be able to figure this out.
That's outstanding.
And so she's strong.
(26:39):
She's certainly strong.
She's not weak at all.
Yeah, she runs circles aroundhim, is that right?
Oh yeah, I could take him for awalk every morning and evening
and, if I can, during the day.
So yeah, they walk all aroundthe place here, and then I've
got them where they'll follow meon my horse too.
So I can ride out and they'llfollow me on the horse what
(27:04):
about um other enterprise yougot?
AJ (27:06):
you got your eye on some of that as well, or are you going
to keep this sort of commercialfree, as it were?
Jason (27:14):
yeah, I'm really not focused on trying to do anything
to market the meat orcommercialization.
We don't do that for wildlifeand we've got to maintain that
focus on ensuring that theseanimals, first and foremost, are
restored as wildlife and notlivestock, first and foremost,
(27:35):
are restored as wildlife and notlivestock.
Livestock's the easy thing todo, anybody can do that.
Trying to do for wildlife andhaving that unique
classification and status meansthat we're shifting the paradigm
successfully where that doesn'thave to be questioned anymore.
But we've got to create thescenario for that to even be a
(28:00):
possibility at first, becausepeople don't know that they're
even in a paradigm or seeing ita certain way or anything like
that.
AJ (28:11):
There's the river there.
Jason (28:13):
Yeah, yeah.
AJ (28:14):
So you see, the whole drainage goes through there yeah
, it's a hell of a landscapewith those two yeah, that bluff
over there pretty awesome yeah,and you know, we just don't have
mountains like this back inaust.
Jason (28:34):
I've only flown into Sydney once.
I wish I could have spent timeI was in New Zealand, for I
travel about about a month inNew Zealand.
We stayed in 17 differentlocations there.
We were looking at effects ofhistoric wildfire.
Oh yeah, and so I drove like4,000 miles in New Zealand how
interesting Up and down theSouth Island on the West East
(28:58):
Coast and then big circle on theNorth Island.
Yeah, loved it down there.
AJ (29:01):
That's a cool sight.
They are mobile.
Jason (29:04):
That's a good sight.
Yeah yeah, those are all bulls.
These are big guys Looks coolwhen they all walk together like
that.
Huh, yeah, I mean, change isthe only constant.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah.
AJ (29:29):
And it's inevitable and Yep, which also means we roll with
the punches you know Exactly.
Stand by for the next change.
Jason (29:36):
Stand by for the next change.
Yeah, yeah, if you don't likeit, wait a little while.
Yeah, yeah, I'm still trying toit.
Wait a little while.
Yeah, yeah, I'm still trying tofigure out what I'm going to be
when I grow up.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, me too mate, I didn't think it would be this.
Yeah, I didn't think it wouldbe this.
Jason (29:52):
This is pretty nice.
For the meantime, I still wantto travel.
I still want to go.
I'd like to go to Colombia, I'dlike to go to Peru.
I want to go back to Africa.
I want to go to Angola, uganda,again.
I'd love to go back to NewZealand.
I want to go to Australia, so Ihave Scandinavia.
(30:14):
I want to go visit the Samipeople, I want to go to see
indigenous people across theplanet and what they're doing to
revive their culture and foodtraditions.
That's like I would really loveto do that.
Yeah, but that would be.
I mean, I can't picture, Ican't fathom that now with my
(30:34):
current circumstances.
So yeah, it's in the back of mymind and maybe working its way
to the front at some point.
I wanted to go look at theseguys before we go.
A couple big fellas yeah, bigis big.
You get the feeling they knowhow big they are oh yeah,
they're in charge they know thatthey can't be really, they
(31:01):
can't really be messed with.
Since he stood up, we'll go andmove him over a little bit.
AJ (31:13):
Slow head turn.
Jason (31:16):
Should be able to keep him comfortable enough that he
won't step off.
I've got to give him a littlesecond to think about it and I
can go a little closer.
There's a nice piece of hairright underneath him that fell
off of it, xavier, you see thathair right there where you were
(31:39):
sitting.
Good fluff, it's right therewhere you were sitting.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I'm not getting that one dude.
Jason (31:45):
I was hoping you'd get that one.
Pretty awesome, huh.
Yeah, it's awesome.
This never gets old.
Never gets old.
So we're gonna put on a tribalbuffalo summit ourselves for
(32:12):
November and try to get tribalparticipation here.
Yeah, in the area It'll be at,probably the casino in Riverton.
Yeah, we want to be able to puttogether a convening that is
(32:38):
tribal members, tribal buffaloprograms, tribal resource
management focused, andoftentimes a lot of these events
are all non-native organized,so it's just not the same.
So we want to try to bring ourown flavor and work with some
(33:02):
other native organizations thatcan make it a unique conference.
So you can see our calf overthere somewhere in the size of
these guys.
Yeah.
AJ (33:16):
I love the calf there, just flat out on its side.
It just reminds me of humans.
When they're young, it's got tosleep a lot.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah.
Jason (33:27):
Growing up.
I like when you can grab by it,when you can smell it.
Yeah, that's a new one rightthere.
Yeah, it's just a couple ofdays.
Oh man, look right there.
Yeah, it's just a couple ofdays.
Oh man, look at that.
Look at them.
Babies all over the place.
That's just awesome.
(33:47):
Yeah, one has horns and theother one doesn't.
Oh yeah.
AJ (33:52):
Something comes back, just to be sure.
Jason (33:57):
It's amazing.
It's like yesterday.
It was like the first ten weregetting off of the trailer.
Yeah, it feels like a hunt.
Yeah, and it's like bam, herewe are.
Wow, it blows me away.
AJ (34:16):
It's a little better when they look you in the eye.
Huh, oh yeah, they're powerful.
Jason (34:18):
They've got you can feel it Definitely a very spiritual
thing, something better.
When they look you in the eye,huh, oh yeah, they're powerful,
they've got you can feel itDefinitely a very spiritual
alive being.
You know where.
Their essence about them isstill there.
They haven't been messed up.
This is last year's calf, stillnursing on her mom.
(34:40):
Yeah, no, she's the one thatshe got injured.
She was being bred and she gother pelvis broke, but because
she had a calf, there's nothingwe could do.
Anyway, she's still feeding hercalf from last year, even
though she's got her back.
Mum's a heroic guy.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah.
Jason (35:01):
Yeah, she's a good mum.
Yeah, despite her pain.
That was the protection.
Oh, that's cool.
AJ (35:13):
That one's got a gallop up over there.
Yeah, so that growth, it's adifferent colour.
That one, it's a light colour,it is too.
Yeah, that growth we saw backthen the one that's still weeny,
that's just one year old.
Yeah, so they grow fast.
Jason (35:26):
Yeah, they grow fast.
These ones will be that sizenext year this time.
Yeah, this one's still pregnanthere, this one walking towards
us.
That's another one.
She still hasn't had hers yet.
She might be getting close.
She looks grumpy.
(35:46):
This one's still pregnant.
This one's still pregnant Don'tmove too fast.
AJ (36:35):
It's just a little head scratch.
That's bumping the vehicle,yeah.
Jason (36:37):
Scratching his head.
Yeah, a little scratch on hishead.
Yeah, it's a fair size.
Lots of people stop on the sideof the road and they're over
(37:07):
here.
AJ (37:07):
It shows you, doesn't it?
Yeah, there's another one rightthere, that film that was made
in Blackfeet Reservation.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Bring them Home, bring them Home.
AJ (37:17):
It's scooped up, it's everywhere.
Jason (37:19):
We've got one called the Buffalo Story.
Really, yeah, there's actuallythree native films that came out
the same year Bring them HomeSinging Back, the Buffalo and A
Buffalo Story and ours.
It was paid for by NationalWildlife Federation and we are
(37:39):
thinking that NBC might pick itup, but it was made by Colin
Ruggiero, so that's the posterof it.
But yeah, it should be comingout as well.
AJ (37:55):
Brilliant will any of these big fellas let you close?
Jason (38:02):
no, once they're there, it's their domain yeah, we don't
approach them, we only let themapproach us, and that just
gives you the so it's theirdecision, yeah, otherwise there
could be, you know, yeah, it'sjust not as acceptable.
(38:23):
Then I think you know, yeah,yeah, in a way, my home is
oceanside back home.
AJ (38:31):
Yeah, same with the animals in the ocean Right Dolphins,
whales but if you like that,they will come to you.
Yeah, yeah, but if you likethat they will come to you.
Yeah, yeah, it's funny, youknow, like I've been paddling
next to a whale.
That will you know.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Just decimate you.
AJ (38:49):
A tail wag?
Sure yeah, but they don't.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah.
AJ (38:53):
And it just strikes me here, with them too, they're not
aggressive beings.
Jason (38:58):
No, yeah.
And if you don't give them areason to be like yellowstone?
Where they get harassed all thetime, yeah, and you respect
their space and you let themapproach you, then there's no,
there is no aggressiveness,there's no defensiveness,
there's no reason for them to bethat way towards us at all.
AJ (39:17):
It's very apparent apparent that and you know, you observe
the same thing in snakes One ofthe only stories we have about
animals out to get us Dogshorses.
Jason (39:27):
I mean you just have respect for the animal and
nothing else, yeah, but you justyou've got to know your own
space and your own boundary.
Most people are totally unawareof their space, even their
energy.
Yeah, most people are unawareof their energy.
They're talking real loud orthey don't know how to shut it
(39:51):
down, and animals can feel thatbecause they're all nonverbal,
obviously.
So I learned about it frombeing around horses a lot and
it's just to just be carefulwith your energy.
You know they feel that.
AJ (40:10):
It's great.
It's awesome for them.
It's awesome, isn't it?
Yeah, he'll be telling hisstories later.
Jason (40:18):
Yeah.
AJ (40:18):
When I was 11.
Yeah, he'll be telling hisstories later when I was 11.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
that was cool man yeah, it's the easiest place to
be hanging out with these guys,yeah yeah, glad they cooperated
with us, didn't they?
Jason (40:44):
Amazing?
AJ (40:45):
Yeah, so curious about the vehicles.
What's in the back?
Jason (40:51):
Yeah, scratch their face.
AJ (40:53):
Thanks for that.
Jason (40:59):
So we want a grant to put up a building, but it's for
ecotourism.
Now I wanted a grant to put upa headquarters for our
non-profit, hmm, but somehow wegot a compromise.
So we've got a $9.8 millionbuilding going up right here.
(41:19):
Is that right?
Well, I think so, unless weback out of it.
Yeah, well then, yeah, but it'slike you have to raise the
money just to try to pay forrunning it after yeah.
So it makes me a bit nervous,totally.
(41:44):
It'll be good in the long run,but it just seems like a lot
right now.
I mean barely get our own, geta non-profit functioning, let
alone running a whole ecotourismbusiness.
AJ (41:52):
Yeah, no, it's a whole thing when I've seen it done well,
they got people in who reallyknew how to do that.
That's what I'm going to haveto do.
Jason (42:04):
I think yeah, because none of our team members were
set up to run a tourism thing.
AJ (42:13):
Yeah, it's a whole distinct thing, but where it's done well,
I've seen it be awesome.
Jason (42:19):
Well, and Africa is actually the place that reminded
me of it, with all the lodgesand the tourism and everything
that they're doing toaccommodate visitors.
AJ (42:28):
That's kind of what we need.
Jason (42:31):
And hiring it out.
Yeah, we're kind of navigatingthat, but apparently by this
time next year we should havewell underway to be building it.
Yeah, yeah, so it'll be alittle different.
I'm going to keep my office inhere.
AJ (42:48):
You're in the shed.
Jason (42:49):
Yeah, I'd much rather be in the shed than in a big old
palace building.
AJ (42:56):
What about?
You mentioned the inner tribalbuffalo cancer before.
Yeah, so that's growing, stillright.
Jason (43:02):
Yeah, we're up to 87 tribes now, from Alaska, new
York, florida, almost everystate in between.
AJ (43:10):
And there's a bunch that are really progressing pretty
strongly with the buffalo aswell.
Jason (43:16):
Yeah, it depends on the tribe and the land base, but 87
tribes working to restorebuffalo back to their lands is
pretty significant.
Tribes in the west have alittle bit more larger land
bases.
That maybe make it a littleeasier, but it doesn't diminish
(43:37):
the importance of buffalo,depending on the size of the
tribe's reservation.
You know they're all importantand so I think trying to
accommodate as many tribes as wecan with resources, also trying
to work on federal trustresponsibility and getting more
(43:59):
funding and resources to thosetribes is challenging, but we
can definitely see themembership growing and we've got
a.
Actually, the biggestlimitation for tribes is land,
and what we're building here ispotentially a replicable process
(44:22):
that we can assist other tribesin finding a network, growing
their capacity, buying land, ifthat's what they've got to do,
or changing land use, if that'sneeded, partnering with agencies
or other NGOs.
So I think that what we're doinghere is a process and an
(44:49):
achievement that we can doelsewhere, and I think that's
part of the beauty of this isthat once you see it, you can
fathom it, and that's half thebattle, because most people
can't fathom what we're tryingto do, but this gives you an
(45:10):
idea of what Buffalo is wildlife, land rematriation and the
reconciliation that can go intothat to really achieve something
that's much bigger than all ofus, and I think that's what's
most important about this isthat this is for future
(45:31):
generations, this is for ouryoung people, this is for other
tribes, other people that canrecognize how important this is,
other people that can recognizehow important this is Not only
for the people that are here,but for all Americans, for all
conservation, for what happenedto bison in this country.
(45:51):
It's just something that'sreally good and I just don't
know how you can find anythingwrong with it.
AJ (46:06):
I wonder when you mention your art, does this come through
your art?
Jason (46:11):
Yeah, I think it does, because I really used to like to
do pencil drawing and oil andwatercolor and I used to do that
quite a bit when I was younger.
But I was always trying to findwhat was what I was trying to
create and that was always kindof a problem for me.
(46:32):
Thinking about going into artas a major was because, like, I
didn't know what I was going todo with art.
And when I finally found stonecarving, when I was in treatment
, actually for alcohol, I foundthis old guy who was carving
(46:53):
stone and stone carving issomething we've always done With
Shoshones.
We made bowls out of soapstoneand we made our utensils out of
soapstone.
We made bowls out of soapstoneand we made our utensils out of
soapstone, our pipes out ofsoapstone.
And once I found that I startedcarving buffalo and carving
(47:15):
little figurines of buffalo andfigurines of other little things
, birds and mammals.
So I think about the time whereI found recovery and sobriety
was about the same time I foundstone carving and it was like
the only thing I had never done.
I did jewelry making and bronzepainting, drawing, sculpture but
(47:43):
stone carving was one thing Ihad never done until I was in
finding my recovery.
So I would say that it is in myart now way more so than it
ever was.
But it's hard to find the timeto do art now because I'm so
busy with everything else.
But I can easily sit and carvefor 10 or 12 hours and it just
(48:08):
go just like that, like that,but I don't have 10 or 12 hours
of time that I can put to that.
So it's kind of a balancing act.
At some point I'll be able tospend more time doing what it is
.
I like to do Stone carving.
(48:28):
I really want to do morewoodworking.
I really love camping andfishing and creating tools that
help sustain my hobbies.
So I like to be able to createthings out of wood that become
heirlooms that I can pass offbut are tools.
(48:49):
So I've been really wanting tobuild this camp box that fits my
camp stove, fits my utensils,but it's just something you can
throw in when you're ready to go.
So I'm always I really like todo leather craft.
I like to braid leather andrawhide, and so I'm always
(49:10):
trying to think of ideas of whenI have the time.
What am I going to create?
So it's either going to beleather or stone, or wood.
AJ (49:20):
Did you ever play music?
Jason (49:22):
Yeah, I played guitar.
I played saxophone, Played in athree-piece band when I was
going to school in Bozeman.
I played upright bass.
That's great Good work, yeah, sosince I moved home I haven't
really been playing too muchmusic.
I really miss it.
We'd have a couple gigs a weekwhen I was living up there, and
(49:44):
that was part.
Of the hardest thing frommoving from Montana was that I
was moving away from music andaway from my band and back to
this, and this was obviouslymost important.
But it was hard to let thatpart of me go and my bass is
still up there.
I left it up there so that inhopes that when I could go back
(50:06):
we'd be able to play again.
So my other band member has mybass up there the thread's still
there.
AJ (50:13):
Yeah, I partly ask, because I always end every episode with
a piece of music.
That means something to you andyou know, if people happen to
play and they want to playsomething, you can always do
that.
Jason (50:27):
I always like your Rocky Spine by the Great Lake Swimmers
, and that was a song that Iused to practice a lot around my
stepmother and she'd always askme to play that song and it was
just a fun song.
I liked the way it sounded.
(50:47):
But one day she asked me if Iwould play it at her funeral and
she had a terminal illness andwe knew that she was going to
pass and I promised her I would.
So, uh, when it came time toher, to her funeral and her
memorial, I played that song forher, and that's one of the only
(51:08):
songs I've ever played solo infront of a crowd, but it was
because she asked me to do that.
Of course, when I hear thatsong now, it's always reminds me
of her and how special she was,what an incredible human being
she was.
So, yeah, that was one of thefew songs I've played solo ever
(51:35):
in my life in front of anaudience, but it was for her.
AJ (51:39):
Beautiful.
Well, man, I'm looking forwardto hearing that somewhere on the
other side.
Jason (51:45):
But thanks a lot hey yeah , yeah, thank you, it's been an
absolute pleasure.
Well, you always come back,you're always welcome thank you,
and likewise yeah, when you getthere I will help show you
around.
That'd be great.
AJ (52:00):
That was Jason Baldes, founder and ED of the Wind River
Tribal Buffalo Initiative, andthat winds up our two-part
series from the Wind RiverReservation.
If you missed part one lastweek, head back for a listen to
the brilliant young staff,xavier Michael Young and Taylor
Dawn Stagner, that were alsokindly showing Yeshi and Olivia
(52:21):
around while Jason and I talked.
There are some more photos andlinks on the website, including
to the episodes mentioned inpart one, by the way, with
Jason's mate Pedro out atAmerican Prairie, kelsey Scott
at the Cheyenne River SiouxReservation and the series from
the Osage Nation.
As always, I'll have more foryou, generous paid subscribers,
(52:41):
soon, with great thanks formaking all this possible.
Speaking of which, specialthanks this week to new paid
subscribers, caro Pidcock onPatreon and Catherine on
Substack, and to thirdanniversary paid subscribers
Steve Morriss, jonathan Curtisand Leanne Thompson.
I'm so enormously grateful toyou all.
(53:01):
We'd love you to join us if youcan get some exclusive stuff
and help keep the show going byheading to the website or the
show notes and following theprompts.
Funilly enough,not long after we left the team
and set course for Yellowstone,we were driving through the
small town of Dubois I don'tactually know if they pronounce
it like that and happened to seea pickup with the Buffalo
(53:23):
Initiative logo on it.
So we pulled up and found Ryanand his partner there.
Turns out Ryan's the facilitiesand projects manager for the
initiative.
He told me he'd joined the teamin their due diligence on this
podcast before our visit too,and liked it, thankfully.
He also described how thebuffalo changed his life, and
that's another story.
(53:44):
Finally, I did ask Jason ifhe'd play that piece of music he
told us about, and he was goingto try, but ultimately it felt
a little too soon.
I spent some time streaming thesong online last night while
finishing up this episode andrecommend it.
It's a beauty.
Right now, of course, the musicyou're hearing is Regeneration
(54:05):
by Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
(54:56):
Thanks for listening.
How long have you been over here in the States?
About a year, about a year.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Yeah.
AJ (00:08):
We've been longer away from home, but we spent a couple of
two or three months in Guatemalaas well.
Oh yeah, because I used to livedown there for a period of time
when I was in my 20s.
Jason (00:19):
Yeah.
AJ (00:20):
Very cool.
Yeah, it's been superinteresting.
I mean all the more, I guess,because it's in the crucible of
the moment.
Jason (00:29):
Yeah.
AJ (00:30):
Pre and post election.
But man, the stories like this,they're just yeah.
Jason (00:36):
I think about this quite often, in that, you know, I keep
up in the news, I pay attentionto what's going on in the world
and I tell you I get a littlebit sad and depressed about that
.
But I can look out the window,or I can go for a ride, I can go
for a drive, and this is thebest thing happening on the
(00:56):
entire planet, and so I'm alwaysconstantly reassured that
everything's fine.
Yes, I feel the same way.
Through this way, I'm alwaysconstantly reassured that
everything's fine.
AJ (01:05):
Yes, I feel the same way through this way.
I just go meet the next awesomeperson, like you know,
pentaroop in Montana, and go manit's everywhere.
Because it is right, it is,this is real.
Jason (01:16):
This is real, this is tangible.
You can see it, you can smellit, you can taste it.
What's that?
AJ (01:21):
bird that just came out of the Snape.
I've seen a bit of thathappening while I've been
talking.
Yeah, great grass cover.
Yeah, very cool looking bird.
Jason (01:33):
So this is the fence line .
What we're getting ready tocross was the original 300 acres
.
Oh, wow, okay, so you see theold posts, and so we pulled out
the old fence.
Hey, so there's been fiveproperties that have been pieced
together and all the interiorfence is pulled out, so that way
they can move through withoutany damn fences in their way I
(01:56):
love.
And so we left them.
AJ (01:58):
Exactly.
Jason (01:58):
So you can see the evidence of it.
Yes, but also they can use itas scratch posts.
Ah perfect, and so then youknow, but yeah, I like to be
able to look at it and be likeyou know, took that crap down
Right on.
And that's the fence we put up.
We put that up in 2015 tocontain this 300 acres, but
after we got that land overthere, that fence came out, even
(02:21):
though we paid for it to go in.
AJ (02:22):
Yeah, the things you gotta do eh there, and that fence came
out even though we paid for itto go in.
Jason (02:27):
Yeah, the things you've got to do, eh yeah, you've got
to put fence up and take it down.
But you know, we raise themoney.
It's not mine.
It's like we'll raise as muchas it takes.
Well, that's cool, it's great.
Even if I had the money, Iwould spend it Well, exactly,
but it's not.
Why do I got to be stingy overhow it gets spent?
It's all for the buffalo.
AJ (02:44):
I feel the same way, and the cool thing is, the people or at
least some of these people thatdo have the money feel the same
way.
Jason (02:50):
That's right, and I've been fortunate to meet a few of
them.
Well, maybe two of them.
There we go.
I need about five or six more,that's right.
AJ (03:05):
Well, there's the call.
You can count them.
On one hand, I know that Mostpeople are pretty selfish.
Jason (03:07):
Well, again, look what you can do with one or two
people just putting their handup?
AJ (03:08):
Yeah, what if five or six did?
Yeah, I think of that For thosewho are in that position where
you can man the rewards.
Jason (03:18):
Yeah, and then you get organizations too.
So you've got individuals, youget organizations, and then
you've got individuals, you'vegot organizations, and then
you've got those organizationsthat have the networks, and so
I've got an incredible network,greg.
AJ (03:32):
Yeah.
Jason (03:33):
They just keep coming.
Yeah, that's cool, like this isbringing out all of the
greatest people in the world tocome here and see it, and that's
awesome.
Our allies are just growing thepeople who don't like it and
the people who want to complainabout it.
They don't come here to visit,which is more the pity, in a way
(03:55):
it is.
AJ (03:56):
That's kind of who you need to reach so that they could
spread that misinformation.
Well, that's right, and how canyou judge if you don't know it?
So come and find out.
Come learn something.
There's a bit of controversyaround the American prairie too,
obviously, where Pedro is, andsame thing, and I think he's
managing it, along with someothers, reasonably well and
they're trying to get better atit.
(04:17):
Just actually get to know eachother.
Don't just be talking from overthe fence of stuff you don't
know.
Yeah, from both sides.
You know about ranches andabout the prairie.
Yeah, it's an interesting thing.
You said before, though, jason,about some perception that it's
it's your thing and, as a, as afounder and an instigator,
(04:39):
that's got to be a common lotlike.
But how do you?
I mean, you've got yourrationale, but I guess what's
your lived experience of tryingto disavow that it's not about
you?
I mean, I guess creating anon-profit is part of that.
Huh, because you're just one ofa managing body yeah, yeah, you
diversify leadership anddecision making.
Jason (05:00):
It's not all just me, and for a period of time it was.
But you know, truth prevailsand lies have a way of filtering
themselves out over time.
So I mean I can explain topeople what I'm doing and what
my goals and what I envisionthis.
(05:22):
But if they don't believe methen I don't need to spend any
more time trying to convincethem, because over time they
will see and I'm not trying tochange everybody's mind on what
maybe they feel about me.
I want the work to speak foritself and it has.
(05:51):
You know, xavier and Taylor andAlbert and Pam and the crew now
associated with it.
So I mean I have to be able tonot let negativity and naysayers
, misconceptions and lies affectme.
So I have to kind of do somedeep down kind of soul searching
(06:15):
myself to call it out formyself when it's there.
Yeah, I don't need that energyto drain me any more than what I
already do drains me.
Yes, and if I know what I'mdoing is, is, is the right thing
(06:35):
for the buffalo, it's the rightthing for our community, it's
the right thing for ournon-profit and our organization,
then that's, that's okay withme, like because if it ever gets
called into question or, youknow, people bring it back up, I
(06:56):
think the evidence will be bethere to where the lies won't
make sense anymore.
I believe that again, becauseit's real.
To where the lies won't makesense anymore.
I believe that.
AJ (07:07):
Again, because it's real.
Yeah, you can manufacturestories, obviously, like, yeah,
what's real.
There's another saying amongstAboriginal folk some Aboriginal
folk I was spoken to back inAustralia that they never forgot
where the water was.
Yeah, just anchored to what'sreal.
Yeah, but yeah, noting thoughthat you, you have to catch
yourself in it occasionally anduh yeah, some, some things you
(07:30):
can.
Jason (07:31):
Some things will bother me.
I've been bothered by somethings.
People have said, yep, and inhindsight, or even in having
some foresight, to to not notengage.
Do not let that energy in,because it can drain you real
fast if you let it.
And I have to be reminded aboutthat vote, you know 90 to seven
(07:53):
.
AJ (07:54):
Overwhelming support is out there.
Jason (07:56):
Just keep doing it, just keep going.
And then oftentimes I thinkabout these little old Shoshone
grandmas that when we broughtthe first 10 buffalo they came
up and they said you keep doingwhat you're doing, don't listen
to anybody.
And I tell you, if a littleShoshone grandma's telling me to
keep doing it, I sure as heckwouldn't keep doing it, because
(08:18):
it's them that hold on to thosebeliefs and values that many of
our own people forgotten tothose beliefs and values that
many of our own people forgotten.
And if you look out here and thebuffalo are doing just fine,
everything is fine.
We get caught up in our humanstuff all the time.
But if the land is expanding,the buffalo are expanding,
(08:39):
they're having babies, we aredoing fine.
We can't get confused about ourhuman stuff because the goal is
them, the buffalo.
It's a hell of a sight, jasonthe snow-capped mountains and
rolling hills and Seven morerange units and these buffalo
(09:01):
will be able to get to the topof there.
Is that right?
Yeah, wow, about 400,000 acres,maybe a little more.
It's something to behold, maybein the next eight to ten years,
hopefully in the next three tofive years, I've got two more
range units next door to thisone and then we'd have 70,000
(09:22):
acres out there, and that 70,000is actually contained by two
highways.
So that's practicality wise,makes sense as a next feasible,
achievable goal?
AJ (09:36):
This bit's treed, this is the waterway here, I guess yeah
this is the Wind River.
Jason (09:41):
This is the riparian area for the water river bottom, so
the Wind River headwaters are upthere, and then it comes down
through here and goes over byRiverton and flows north through
Wind River Canyon.
Once it gets through Wind RiverCanyon it changes name from the
Wind River to the Bighorn andthat's why it's referred to as
(10:05):
the Big Horn case.
Oh right, the water rights caseGot it Is because it was
adjudicated in Thermopolis,where the river is called the
Big Horn Right, but I almostthink that they did that on
purpose to draw attention awayfrom the what they did here.
AJ (10:20):
It matters, doesn't it?
Yeah, and this is old EasternShoshone lands as well.
Jason (10:28):
traditional lands- oh yeah, our reservation was 44
million acres in 1863.
In 1868 it was reduced by 42million acres.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
What.
AJ (10:41):
And what instigated that?
Did they find some minerals orsomething?
Jason (10:45):
Oregon Trail, santa Fe Trail, right Pony Express.
They all came right to theShoshone.
AJ (10:53):
Reservation.
That's another one of thesestories, hey of you're already
into a reservation context andeven then you're stripped of
that, and then after that theywere stripped of land even
further.
Jason (11:05):
Really, yeah, I could go through a timeline with you of
all of the steps, all of thosehistorical decisions that have
resulted in the way it is now.
AJ (11:21):
What's your experience of still being anchored, albeit at
2 million anchors, but to thattraditional land.
Jason (11:30):
The lands that we were on and utilized.
We've always had a reciprocalrelationship with kind of like
what we're referring to withthis buffalo, but it has to do
with our foods.
So the lands that we were onobviously provided all the
(11:54):
sustenance that we needed, andfor us Shoshone people that was
obviously the buffalo, but it'salso in roots and plants and
berries which comprised ourancestral traditional diet.
Certain seasons we would moveto different areas to hunt and
(12:15):
harvest different foods.
That was tied to the medicinewheel represents spring, summer,
fall, winter.
Well, we had different foods forevery season, which meant we
needed to travel to a differentplace or different elevation
every season.
So in the summer months we usedto move to the mountain and we
(12:38):
would hunt and harvest food upthere throughout the summer.
Then come fall and winter,winter time that would be time
to move low elevation.
That changed our foods and whatwe would hunt and gather.
So, out of the big 44 millionacre reservation, imagine the
(12:59):
amount of resources that youcould hunt and gather and
sustain yourselves.
Well, when you go from a 44million acre to a two million
acre reservation and then youstart to hunt year round, you
deplete the wildlife.
And then you have westwardexpansion coming in telling you
(13:19):
that now you have to becomefarmers and ranchers.
The buffalo are gone, then yourely on the federal government
for commodity like flour, sugarand salt.
So our relationship with theland changed with colonization.
It becomes sedentary.
They put us in villages, theyput us in square boxes that we
(13:40):
couldn't move from.
So not a lot of us.
I remember as a youngster weused to go stay in the summer up
in the mountains for severalcouple months Really, and a lot
of families used to do that, andwe'd gather firewood and we'd
gather resources to prepare forwinter, and so then we'd bring
that stuff down and then yeah.
(14:01):
So I think that we're trying tofind our way back to that
possibly.
Yeah, I mean, I am, yeah, speakfor myself, yeah, but I see it.
I see it in some of our youngpeople that are continuing to
(14:23):
practice our ceremonies.
We've got young people going inand learning the songs.
It's there, it's alive.
It's not abundant, but it'salive.
AJ (14:38):
Have you learned much about your ancestry further back.
Jason (14:44):
Well, both of my parents are Shoshone, so on my mom's
side we come from a prominentfamily.
On my dad's side he's enrolledShoshone.
But my dad's grandpa came fromIsleta Pueblo and his name was
(15:06):
Claude Moya and he had witnesseda murder, him and his cousin,
and they rode horses north toWyoming and his cousin was shot
off of the horse and so, toescape persecution, my
great-grandpa took his mother'smaiden name, which was Valdez,
and he changed the V to a B andthe Z to an S.
(15:26):
I was wondering about the S.
So my last name comes fromClaude Moya, but he was from
Isla de Pueblo, new Mexico, andhe married a Mexican lady and
she came from the Perea family,both from here, but more of a
Mexican and Pueblo lineage.
(15:48):
Yeah, but the Shoshone family,the weed family my mom comes
from, is a prominent family here.
My great-grandpa on my mom'sside was a scalper custer.
His name was Rabbit Tail.
He was at the Big Horn.
Wow.
My great-grandpa on my mom'sside was a scowl for Custer.
His name was Rabbit Tail.
He was at the Big Horn.
Wow, yeah, so that's just acouple of generations ago.
(16:13):
Yeah, yeah, before that, youknow, we were buffalo people.
We lived in lodges, we hunted,fish gathered, but my grandma
and grandpa went through theboarding school and so the
language stopped with them.
They didn't teach my aunts anduncles the language because of
what they went through.
So it was, my grandma andgrandpa were the last fluent
(16:34):
speakers.
Anything happening on thatfront?
Yeah, we have other families inthe tribe that are more
prominent or have the languagemore intact, and then our
schools, our schools areteaching immersion language and
(16:57):
we're doing our best, you know,out of out of only 5,000
Shoshones you know our number ofelders is decreasing rapidly.
AJ (17:07):
Yeah, there's a moment in time Again.
Same back home for the ones whoare still with us.
Jason (17:15):
Yeah, and we lost a lot during COVID, really yeah.
AJ (17:20):
You know, we were with the Osage back in Oklahoma and Chief
Standing Bear there showed uson his phone what some of the
young folk had designed in anapp with language.
So some of these kids aretexting each other Young people
I don't know how young, buttexting each other in their
language.
Jason (17:40):
That's cool, isn't that cool?
We've got a language app.
All tribes here have a languageapp, really but they're not
like Duolingo.
I guess there's not enoughresources into them to actually
have them be a great tool.
They're more like a dictionary.
If you want to know a word.
(18:00):
You can look it up, but it'snot like you can learn it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
You know a really interactive lap like Duolingo.
Jason (18:07):
I've practiced my Spanish and stuff on there, so if we
had something like that, thatwould be helpful, but apparently
Navajo is on Duolingo, are they?
AJ (18:18):
Yeah, yes, he found it he started learning Navajo.
Jason (18:21):
Ojibwe is probably going to be on there soon.
It's the big linguistic groupslike Cree, yes, when they've got
big, like you know a lot ofspeakers Right.
We've got maybe 20 speakersleft.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, wow.
Jason (18:32):
Look at this buffalo hair right here.
AJ (18:34):
You should grab that piece.
Oh yeah.
That is cool, that's a good one.
Jason (18:42):
I yeah, they're losing their winter coat Buffalo has.
This is second warmest naturalfiber on the continent, only
behind muskox.
AJ (18:50):
It's beautiful, isn't it?
Jason (18:52):
Buffalo has 17,000 hairs per square inch more than twice
what a cow has Biggest belief.
AJ (18:58):
That's gorgeous.
Jason (19:01):
Yeah, we gather it up and rope out of it.
We give a little bit to kidswhen they're here.
They can always take a piece ofbuffalo home with them.
AJ (19:14):
That's awesome.
So that ancestry you'refamiliar with, do you feel a
particular connection to anyaspect of it, like in terms of
being able to spot it inyourself and what's become of
your life?
Jason (19:32):
Oh, I don't.
I think I've always felt alittle bit lost and always
trying to find a piece of myselfand probably was always looking
for some level of acceptancethat I maybe I'm
overcompensating for.
Uh, because I was.
(19:53):
I was.
I was a child born out of anaffair, so I'm half.
With all my siblings I'm theonly only one I'm the youngest
of nine, but I don't have a fullsibling and I've always kind of
felt a little bit isolated frommy family members, because I
(20:13):
was a bit unique and I grew upwith two loving moms.
I had two mothers so I'vealways felt like double blessed
that both of my moms loved me mystepmother, my biological
mother and so I've kind ofalways been just a little bit
out of place, but I always knewI wanted to do good work and I
(20:35):
didn't know what that lookedlike Really.
How far back can we talk?
Like when you were very, verysmall.
I remember just thinking I justwant to do something good and
that's why I like to do art.
And so when I was growing up,you know, I just liked to work
with my hands and make coolstuff and do painting and
drawing.
I like to carve now when I canfind the time, but that eats up
(20:59):
a lot of hours, so I don't havethat.
But the, yeah, I remember froma young age just thinking just
do something good.
I didn't know what that lookedlike, maybe until I was about 26
.
And then I knew it was waterand buffalo.
And then you know thatexperience in Africa, coming
home, still being a knuckleheadfor a while and then just
(21:21):
finally being like you know it'stime to actually get serious
about what it is I want to do.
So I did, and I went to schooland I buckled down for 10 years
to get my degrees and to comehome and just do this.
But I knew that it was going totake the academic credentials
(21:42):
to get it.
You know, yeah, what are youdoing up there?
See my there's the little horse.
Yeah, he's gonna come down here.
I gotta go up there first.
Oh buddy, it's gorgeous.
We'll get to see him prettyclose.
See, I gotta go up and get hislittle bottle ready.
(22:03):
And there's the buffalo calf.
We'll go up and get his littlebottle ready.
And there's the buffalo calf.
We'll go up and get her bottleready and then I'll bring him
down here.
So cool, I've got another horseand mare.
I'm trying to keep that littlehorse together with a little one
so he can learn how to be ahorse.
There's another little horseand mare in here.
(22:25):
So I'm gonna, you can hang out,I'm gonna run in real quick,
all right, and I'm gonna fixtheir bottle and I'll be right
out, you bet.
And then we're gonna.
Then they'll follow us downthere.
Cool, but right now they'regonna be a bit.
They get a little bit nosyright now.
Hello, hold on.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
You all good.
Jason (22:53):
Yeah, we got to go down below All right.
Come on, let's go, come on.
AJ (23:01):
Come on, let's go.
Is it buffalo milk or camu Lamb?
Jason (23:07):
Lamb.
Yeah, it's dehydrated lamb'smilk which is higher in fat.
This is for the horse, thatone's for the buffalo.
Oh yeah, I had to rig up acooler so that the horse could
eat while I'm doing the Buffalo.
Come on, come on, sandoon.
(23:37):
Come on, come on, come on Igloomama.
AJ (23:59):
That's outstanding.
That's what moms have to dealwith, huh.
Jason (24:08):
Yeah so how much milk would a normal baby bottle of
per day?
Per day?
AJ (24:17):
That one goes about three of those bottles, about three of
those per day.
Per day, that one goes aboutthree of those bottles.
Jason (24:21):
About three of these bottles.
Yeah Wow, morning, lunch anddinner.
She got fed at six this morning.
This is her second feeding.
She'll get another one thisafternoon and then another one
tonight.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Isn't that six pints too?
Jason (24:32):
Yeah so 18?
18 pints.
Oh, three liters, 6 pints.
Yeah, instincts, eh yeah,instinct, that's the way you
want it.
AJ (24:48):
You're getting that photo.
Yes, sir, you gotta make itcomfortable for her.
Jason (24:52):
You're never gonna feed her the other way now.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Well, I have been.
I going to feed her the otherway now.
Jason (24:59):
Well, I have been.
I've been feeding her off tothe side, but when she gets a
little picky then I'llaccommodate a little more.
But she's about good, so sheonly drank about this much for
now.
He drinks more frequently thanshe does, but I've been putting
(25:20):
them in here for the last threenights now.
He drinks more frequently thanshe does, but I've been putting
them in here for the last threenights now, but I don't like
locking them in here during theday, so I let them run around,
but with his cooler down here.
If they go up there then hedoesn't get to eat because he
doesn't quite associate comingback down here to eat.
Yeah, not, not, not.
Not every day do you have alittle horse and buffalo being
raised together?
Speaker 2 (25:39):
so, species wise, they the little buffalo not very
, I mean trying to drink fromthe horse like you see, your
horns are coming in reallygrowth right must be huge, huh.
AJ (25:54):
I'm telling these guys, they have to be 180 kilos by the
beginning of winter.
Jason (25:59):
Yeah right, yeah yeah, these are the orphans.
AJ (26:04):
And this is Ruby.
Right, yeah, this is Ruby andher twin.
Jason (26:08):
Her twin is out there, don't know which one it is,
can't tell.
I mean, you can see how muchthey look like yeah true, but
she's tracking, all right, yeah.
AJ (26:16):
Yeah, she's strong.
Jason (26:18):
When she was the first two days, we had to intubate her
.
She didn't know how to eat,which could have been the reason
why she was abandoned too.
Yeah, we had to intubate her,so you had to put the tube down
her throat and make sure she wasgetting milk.
And then she got strong enoughto be able to figure this out.
That's outstanding.
And so she's strong.
(26:39):
She's certainly strong.
She's not weak at all.
Yeah, she runs circles aroundhim, is that right?
Oh yeah, I could take him for awalk every morning and evening
and, if I can, during the day.
So yeah, they walk all aroundthe place here, and then I've
got them where they'll follow meon my horse too.
So I can ride out and they'llfollow me on the horse what
(27:04):
about um other enterprise yougot?
AJ (27:06):
you got your eye on some of that as well, or are you going
to keep this sort of commercialfree, as it were?
Jason (27:14):
yeah, I'm really not focused on trying to do anything
to market the meat orcommercialization.
We don't do that for wildlifeand we've got to maintain that
focus on ensuring that theseanimals, first and foremost, are
restored as wildlife and notlivestock, first and foremost,
(27:35):
are restored as wildlife and notlivestock.
Livestock's the easy thing todo, anybody can do that.
Trying to do for wildlife andhaving that unique
classification and status meansthat we're shifting the paradigm
successfully where that doesn'thave to be questioned anymore.
But we've got to create thescenario for that to even be a
(28:00):
possibility at first, becausepeople don't know that they're
even in a paradigm or seeing ita certain way or anything like
that.
AJ (28:11):
There's the river there.
Jason (28:13):
Yeah, yeah.
AJ (28:14):
So you see, the whole drainage goes through there yeah
, it's a hell of a landscapewith those two yeah, that bluff
over there pretty awesome yeah,and you know, we just don't have
mountains like this back inaust.
Jason (28:34):
I've only flown into Sydney once.
I wish I could have spent timeI was in New Zealand, for I
travel about about a month inNew Zealand.
We stayed in 17 differentlocations there.
We were looking at effects ofhistoric wildfire.
Oh yeah, and so I drove like4,000 miles in New Zealand how
interesting Up and down theSouth Island on the West East
(28:58):
Coast and then big circle on theNorth Island.
Yeah, loved it down there.
AJ (29:01):
That's a cool sight.
They are mobile.
Jason (29:04):
That's a good sight.
Yeah yeah, those are all bulls.
These are big guys Looks coolwhen they all walk together like
that.
Huh, yeah, I mean, change isthe only constant.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah.
AJ (29:29):
And it's inevitable and Yep, which also means we roll with
the punches you know Exactly.
Stand by for the next change.
Jason (29:36):
Stand by for the next change.
Yeah, yeah, if you don't likeit, wait a little while.
Yeah, yeah, I'm still trying toit.
Wait a little while.
Yeah, yeah, I'm still trying tofigure out what I'm going to be
when I grow up.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, me too mate, I didn't think it would be this.
Yeah, I didn't think it wouldbe this.
Jason (29:52):
This is pretty nice.
For the meantime, I still wantto travel.
I still want to go.
I'd like to go to Colombia, I'dlike to go to Peru.
I want to go back to Africa.
I want to go to Angola, uganda,again.
I'd love to go back to NewZealand.
I want to go to Australia, so Ihave Scandinavia.
(30:14):
I want to go visit the Samipeople, I want to go to see
indigenous people across theplanet and what they're doing to
revive their culture and foodtraditions.
That's like I would really loveto do that.
Yeah, but that would be.
I mean, I can't picture, Ican't fathom that now with my
(30:34):
current circumstances.
So yeah, it's in the back of mymind and maybe working its way
to the front at some point.
I wanted to go look at theseguys before we go.
A couple big fellas yeah, bigis big.
You get the feeling they knowhow big they are oh yeah,
they're in charge they know thatthey can't be really, they
(31:01):
can't really be messed with.
Since he stood up, we'll go andmove him over a little bit.
AJ (31:13):
Slow head turn.
Jason (31:16):
Should be able to keep him comfortable enough that he
won't step off.
I've got to give him a littlesecond to think about it and I
can go a little closer.
There's a nice piece of hairright underneath him that fell
off of it, xavier, you see thathair right there where you were
(31:39):
sitting.
Good fluff, it's right therewhere you were sitting.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I'm not getting that one dude.
Jason (31:45):
I was hoping you'd get that one.
Pretty awesome, huh.
Yeah, it's awesome.
This never gets old.
Never gets old.
So we're gonna put on a tribalbuffalo summit ourselves for
(32:12):
November and try to get tribalparticipation here.
Yeah, in the area It'll be at,probably the casino in Riverton.
Yeah, we want to be able to puttogether a convening that is
(32:38):
tribal members, tribal buffaloprograms, tribal resource
management focused, andoftentimes a lot of these events
are all non-native organized,so it's just not the same.
So we want to try to bring ourown flavor and work with some
(33:02):
other native organizations thatcan make it a unique conference.
So you can see our calf overthere somewhere in the size of
these guys.
Yeah.
AJ (33:16):
I love the calf there, just flat out on its side.
It just reminds me of humans.
When they're young, it's got tosleep a lot.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah.
Jason (33:27):
Growing up.
I like when you can grab by it,when you can smell it.
Yeah, that's a new one rightthere.
Yeah, it's just a couple ofdays.
Oh man, look right there.
Yeah, it's just a couple ofdays.
Oh man, look at that.
Look at them.
Babies all over the place.
That's just awesome.
(33:47):
Yeah, one has horns and theother one doesn't.
Oh yeah.
AJ (33:52):
Something comes back, just to be sure.
Jason (33:57):
It's amazing.
It's like yesterday.
It was like the first ten weregetting off of the trailer.
Yeah, it feels like a hunt.
Yeah, and it's like bam, herewe are.
Wow, it blows me away.
AJ (34:16):
It's a little better when they look you in the eye.
Huh, oh yeah, they're powerful.
Jason (34:18):
They've got you can feel it Definitely a very spiritual
thing, something better.
When they look you in the eye,huh, oh yeah, they're powerful,
they've got you can feel itDefinitely a very spiritual
alive being.
You know where.
Their essence about them isstill there.
They haven't been messed up.
This is last year's calf, stillnursing on her mom.
(34:40):
Yeah, no, she's the one thatshe got injured.
She was being bred and she gother pelvis broke, but because
she had a calf, there's nothingwe could do.
Anyway, she's still feeding hercalf from last year, even
though she's got her back.
Mum's a heroic guy.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah.
Jason (35:01):
Yeah, she's a good mum.
Yeah, despite her pain.
That was the protection.
Oh, that's cool.
AJ (35:13):
That one's got a gallop up over there.
Yeah, so that growth, it's adifferent colour.
That one, it's a light colour,it is too.
Yeah, that growth we saw backthen the one that's still weeny,
that's just one year old.
Yeah, so they grow fast.
Jason (35:26):
Yeah, they grow fast.
These ones will be that sizenext year this time.
Yeah, this one's still pregnanthere, this one walking towards
us.
That's another one.
She still hasn't had hers yet.
She might be getting close.
She looks grumpy.
(35:46):
This one's still pregnant.
This one's still pregnant Don'tmove too fast.
AJ (36:35):
It's just a little head scratch.
That's bumping the vehicle,yeah.
Jason (36:37):
Scratching his head.
Yeah, a little scratch on hishead.
Yeah, it's a fair size.
Lots of people stop on the sideof the road and they're over
(37:07):
here.
AJ (37:07):
It shows you, doesn't it?
Yeah, there's another one rightthere, that film that was made
in Blackfeet Reservation.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Bring them Home, bring them Home.
AJ (37:17):
It's scooped up, it's everywhere.
Jason (37:19):
We've got one called the Buffalo Story.
Really, yeah, there's actuallythree native films that came out
the same year Bring them HomeSinging Back, the Buffalo and A
Buffalo Story and ours.
It was paid for by NationalWildlife Federation and we are
(37:39):
thinking that NBC might pick itup, but it was made by Colin
Ruggiero, so that's the posterof it.
But yeah, it should be comingout as well.
AJ (37:55):
Brilliant will any of these big fellas let you close?
Jason (38:02):
no, once they're there, it's their domain yeah, we don't
approach them, we only let themapproach us, and that just
gives you the so it's theirdecision, yeah, otherwise there
could be, you know, yeah, it'sjust not as acceptable.
(38:23):
Then I think you know, yeah,yeah, in a way, my home is
oceanside back home.
AJ (38:31):
Yeah, same with the animals in the ocean Right Dolphins,
whales but if you like that,they will come to you.
Yeah, yeah, but if you likethat they will come to you.
Yeah, yeah, it's funny, youknow, like I've been paddling
next to a whale.
That will you know.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Just decimate you.
AJ (38:49):
A tail wag?
Sure yeah, but they don't.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah.
AJ (38:53):
And it just strikes me here, with them too, they're not
aggressive beings.
Jason (38:58):
No, yeah.
And if you don't give them areason to be like yellowstone?
Where they get harassed all thetime, yeah, and you respect
their space and you let themapproach you, then there's no,
there is no aggressiveness,there's no defensiveness,
there's no reason for them to bethat way towards us at all.
AJ (39:17):
It's very apparent apparent that and you know, you observe
the same thing in snakes One ofthe only stories we have about
animals out to get us Dogshorses.
Jason (39:27):
I mean you just have respect for the animal and
nothing else, yeah, but you justyou've got to know your own
space and your own boundary.
Most people are totally unawareof their space, even their
energy.
Yeah, most people are unawareof their energy.
They're talking real loud orthey don't know how to shut it
(39:51):
down, and animals can feel thatbecause they're all nonverbal,
obviously.
So I learned about it frombeing around horses a lot and
it's just to just be carefulwith your energy.
You know they feel that.
AJ (40:10):
It's great.
It's awesome for them.
It's awesome, isn't it?
Yeah, he'll be telling hisstories later.
Jason (40:18):
Yeah.
AJ (40:18):
When I was 11.
Yeah, he'll be telling hisstories later when I was 11.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
that was cool man yeah, it's the easiest place to
be hanging out with these guys,yeah yeah, glad they cooperated
with us, didn't they?
Jason (40:44):
Amazing?
AJ (40:45):
Yeah, so curious about the vehicles.
What's in the back?
Jason (40:51):
Yeah, scratch their face.
AJ (40:53):
Thanks for that.
Jason (40:59):
So we want a grant to put up a building, but it's for
ecotourism.
Now I wanted a grant to put upa headquarters for our
non-profit, hmm, but somehow wegot a compromise.
So we've got a $9.8 millionbuilding going up right here.
(41:19):
Is that right?
Well, I think so, unless weback out of it.
Yeah, well then, yeah, but it'slike you have to raise the
money just to try to pay forrunning it after yeah.
So it makes me a bit nervous,totally.
(41:44):
It'll be good in the long run,but it just seems like a lot
right now.
I mean barely get our own, geta non-profit functioning, let
alone running a whole ecotourismbusiness.
AJ (41:52):
Yeah, no, it's a whole thing when I've seen it done well,
they got people in who reallyknew how to do that.
That's what I'm going to haveto do.
Jason (42:04):
I think yeah, because none of our team members were
set up to run a tourism thing.
AJ (42:13):
Yeah, it's a whole distinct thing, but where it's done well,
I've seen it be awesome.
Jason (42:19):
Well, and Africa is actually the place that reminded
me of it, with all the lodgesand the tourism and everything
that they're doing toaccommodate visitors.
AJ (42:28):
That's kind of what we need.
Jason (42:31):
And hiring it out.
Yeah, we're kind of navigatingthat, but apparently by this
time next year we should havewell underway to be building it.
Yeah, yeah, so it'll be alittle different.
I'm going to keep my office inhere.
AJ (42:48):
You're in the shed.
Jason (42:49):
Yeah, I'd much rather be in the shed than in a big old
palace building.
AJ (42:56):
What about?
You mentioned the inner tribalbuffalo cancer before.
Yeah, so that's growing, stillright.
Jason (43:02):
Yeah, we're up to 87 tribes now, from Alaska, new
York, florida, almost everystate in between.
AJ (43:10):
And there's a bunch that are really progressing pretty
strongly with the buffalo aswell.
Jason (43:16):
Yeah, it depends on the tribe and the land base, but 87
tribes working to restorebuffalo back to their lands is
pretty significant.
Tribes in the west have alittle bit more larger land
bases.
That maybe make it a littleeasier, but it doesn't diminish
(43:37):
the importance of buffalo,depending on the size of the
tribe's reservation.
You know they're all importantand so I think trying to
accommodate as many tribes as wecan with resources, also trying
to work on federal trustresponsibility and getting more
(43:59):
funding and resources to thosetribes is challenging, but we
can definitely see themembership growing and we've got
a.
Actually, the biggestlimitation for tribes is land,
and what we're building here ispotentially a replicable process
(44:22):
that we can assist other tribesin finding a network, growing
their capacity, buying land, ifthat's what they've got to do,
or changing land use, if that'sneeded, partnering with agencies
or other NGOs.
So I think that what we're doinghere is a process and an
(44:49):
achievement that we can doelsewhere, and I think that's
part of the beauty of this isthat once you see it, you can
fathom it, and that's half thebattle, because most people
can't fathom what we're tryingto do, but this gives you an
(45:10):
idea of what Buffalo is wildlife, land rematriation and the
reconciliation that can go intothat to really achieve something
that's much bigger than all ofus, and I think that's what's
most important about this isthat this is for future
(45:31):
generations, this is for ouryoung people, this is for other
tribes, other people that canrecognize how important this is,
other people that can recognizehow important this is Not only
for the people that are here,but for all Americans, for all
conservation, for what happenedto bison in this country.
(45:51):
It's just something that'sreally good and I just don't
know how you can find anythingwrong with it.
AJ (46:06):
I wonder when you mention your art, does this come through
your art?
Jason (46:11):
Yeah, I think it does, because I really used to like to
do pencil drawing and oil andwatercolor and I used to do that
quite a bit when I was younger.
But I was always trying to findwhat was what I was trying to
create and that was always kindof a problem for me.
(46:32):
Thinking about going into artas a major was because, like, I
didn't know what I was going todo with art.
And when I finally found stonecarving, when I was in treatment
, actually for alcohol, I foundthis old guy who was carving
(46:53):
stone and stone carving issomething we've always done With
Shoshones.
We made bowls out of soapstoneand we made our utensils out of
soapstone.
We made bowls out of soapstoneand we made our utensils out of
soapstone, our pipes out ofsoapstone.
And once I found that I startedcarving buffalo and carving
(47:15):
little figurines of buffalo andfigurines of other little things
, birds and mammals.
So I think about the time whereI found recovery and sobriety
was about the same time I foundstone carving and it was like
the only thing I had never done.
I did jewelry making and bronzepainting, drawing, sculpture but
(47:43):
stone carving was one thing Ihad never done until I was in
finding my recovery.
So I would say that it is in myart now way more so than it
ever was.
But it's hard to find the timeto do art now because I'm so
busy with everything else.
But I can easily sit and carvefor 10 or 12 hours and it just
(48:08):
go just like that, like that,but I don't have 10 or 12 hours
of time that I can put to that.
So it's kind of a balancing act.
At some point I'll be able tospend more time doing what it is
.
I like to do Stone carving.
(48:28):
I really want to do morewoodworking.
I really love camping andfishing and creating tools that
help sustain my hobbies.
So I like to be able to createthings out of wood that become
heirlooms that I can pass offbut are tools.
(48:49):
So I've been really wanting tobuild this camp box that fits my
camp stove, fits my utensils,but it's just something you can
throw in when you're ready to go.
So I'm always I really like todo leather craft.
I like to braid leather andrawhide, and so I'm always
(49:10):
trying to think of ideas of whenI have the time.
What am I going to create?
So it's either going to beleather or stone, or wood.
AJ (49:20):
Did you ever play music?
Jason (49:22):
Yeah, I played guitar.
I played saxophone, Played in athree-piece band when I was
going to school in Bozeman.
I played upright bass.
That's great Good work, yeah, sosince I moved home I haven't
really been playing too muchmusic.
I really miss it.
We'd have a couple gigs a weekwhen I was living up there, and
(49:44):
that was part.
Of the hardest thing frommoving from Montana was that I
was moving away from music andaway from my band and back to
this, and this was obviouslymost important.
But it was hard to let thatpart of me go and my bass is
still up there.
I left it up there so that inhopes that when I could go back
(50:06):
we'd be able to play again.
So my other band member has mybass up there the thread's still
there.
AJ (50:13):
Yeah, I partly ask, because I always end every episode with
a piece of music.
That means something to you andyou know, if people happen to
play and they want to playsomething, you can always do
that.
Jason (50:27):
I always like your Rocky Spine by the Great Lake Swimmers
, and that was a song that Iused to practice a lot around my
stepmother and she'd always askme to play that song and it was
just a fun song.
I liked the way it sounded.
(50:47):
But one day she asked me if Iwould play it at her funeral and
she had a terminal illness andwe knew that she was going to
pass and I promised her I would.
So, uh, when it came time toher, to her funeral and her
memorial, I played that song forher, and that's one of the only
(51:08):
songs I've ever played solo infront of a crowd, but it was
because she asked me to do that.
Of course, when I hear thatsong now, it's always reminds me
of her and how special she was,what an incredible human being
she was.
So, yeah, that was one of thefew songs I've played solo ever
(51:35):
in my life in front of anaudience, but it was for her.
AJ (51:39):
Beautiful.
Well, man, I'm looking forwardto hearing that somewhere on the
other side.
Jason (51:45):
But thanks a lot hey yeah , yeah, thank you, it's been an
absolute pleasure.
Well, you always come back,you're always welcome thank you,
and likewise yeah, when you getthere I will help show you
around.
That'd be great.
AJ (52:00):
That was Jason Baldes, founder and ED of the Wind River
Tribal Buffalo Initiative, andthat winds up our two-part
series from the Wind RiverReservation.
If you missed part one lastweek, head back for a listen to
the brilliant young staff,xavier Michael Young and Taylor
Dawn Stagner, that were alsokindly showing Yeshi and Olivia
(52:21):
around while Jason and I talked.
There are some more photos andlinks on the website, including
to the episodes mentioned inpart one, by the way, with
Jason's mate Pedro out atAmerican Prairie, kelsey Scott
at the Cheyenne River SiouxReservation and the series from
the Osage Nation.
As always, I'll have more foryou, generous paid subscribers,
(52:41):
soon, with great thanks formaking all this possible.
Speaking of which, specialthanks this week to new paid
subscribers, caro Pidcock onPatreon and Catherine on
Substack, and to thirdanniversary paid subscribers
Steve Morriss, jonathan Curtisand Leanne Thompson.
I'm so enormously grateful toyou all.
(53:01):
We'd love you to join us if youcan get some exclusive stuff
and help keep the show going byheading to the website or the
show notes and following theprompts.
Funilly enough,not long after we left the team
and set course for Yellowstone,we were driving through the
small town of Dubois I don'tactually know if they pronounce
it like that and happened to seea pickup with the Buffalo
(53:23):
Initiative logo on it.
So we pulled up and found Ryanand his partner there.
Turns out Ryan's the facilitiesand projects manager for the
initiative.
He told me he'd joined the teamin their due diligence on this
podcast before our visit too,and liked it, thankfully.
He also described how thebuffalo changed his life, and
that's another story.
(53:44):
Finally, I did ask Jason ifhe'd play that piece of music he
told us about, and he was goingto try, but ultimately it felt
a little too soon.
I spent some time streaming thesong online last night while
finishing up this episode andrecommend it.
It's a beauty.
Right now, of course, the musicyou're hearing is Regeneration
(54:05):
by Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
(54:56):
Thanks for listening.
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