Welcome to the Wind River Reservation, home of the Eastern Shoshone and Arapaho Nations, and the Wind River Tribal Buffalo Initiative (WRTBI). That’s a tribally led non-profit founded in 2023, here at the foot of the Rocky Mountains in current day Wyoming. The Initiative, and its founder Jason Baldes, had been coming increasingly to my attention as we travelled the US, and with such unique and extraordinary aspects to the story, I was stoked we could meet up today.
We arrived as Jason and family were preparing for the summer’s Sundance, which reminded me of having read about how buffalo meat had been sourced for the tribe’s 2023 Sundance, from their own animals on their own land for the first time in nearly 140 years. And that’s just a hint of the momentous shifts happening here, as they enact a vision of buffalo living as wildlife once again, protected under Tribal law.
While Jason was making his way over to us, we got to meet some of the Initiative’s brilliant young staff, including Xavier Michael-Young and Taylar Dawn Stagner. They warmly welcomed us in, and were a treasure trove of passion, insight and vision. So our time with them forms this first part of our two part series from the Wind River Tribal Buffalo Initiative.
In part two, we’ll head out to the buffalo with Jason. But right now, we meet Taylar, award-winning journalist, enrolled member of the Cheyenne Arapaho Tribes of Oklahoma and an Eastern Shoshone descendant, and now the Initiative’s new Community Engagement Director. And we meet Xavier, offering us the opportunity to delve ever deeper into the Initiative from the perspective of this young Seminole man, who brings his economics, finance and cultural tourism expertise, having been drawn to Wind River by the buffalo.
Recorded 16 June 2025.
Title slide: Xavier & Taylar heading to the buffalo (pic: Anthony James).
See more photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below.
Music:
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.
The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.
Pre-roll music: Heartland Rebel, by Steven Beddall (sourced from Artlist).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AJ (00:06):
G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your
independent listener supportedpodcast exploring how people are
regenerating the systems andstories we live by.
Welcome to the Wind RiverReservation home of the Eastern
Shoshone and Arapaho Nations andthe Wind River Tribal Buffalo
Initiative, a tribally-lednon-profit founded in 2023 here
(00:30):
at the foot of the RockyMountains in current-day Wyoming
.
This initiative and its founder, jason Baldes, had been coming
increasingly to my attention aswe travelled the US and, with
such unique and extraordinaryaspects to the story, I was
stoked we could meet up today.
I had started recording onarrival, as you can hear,
(00:51):
because bird sounds were just sobeautiful and we had a little
time before Jason arrived.
He'd been delayed with somefamily needs around the coming
Sundance, which reminded me ofhaving read about how buffalo
meat had been sourced for thetribe's 2023 Sundance from their
own animals on their own landfor the first time in nearly 140
(01:13):
years, and that's just a hintof the momentous shifts
happening here.
So in the time we had beforeJason arrived, we got to meet
some of the initiative'sbrilliant young staff, including
Xavier Michael Young and TaylorDawn Stagner.
They warmly welcomed us in andwere a treasure trove of passion
(01:33):
, insight and vision.
So our time with them formsthis first part of our two-part
series from the Wind RiverTribal Buffalo Initiative.
In part two, next week we'llhead out to the buffalo with
Jason Baldes.
Right now, though, let's startat the start.
We meet Taylor, award-winningjournalist, enrolled member of
(01:54):
the Cheyenne Arapaho tribes ofOklahoma and an Eastern Shoshone
descendant, and now theinitiative's new community
engagement director, and we alsomeet Xavier, offering us the
opportunity to delve ever deeperinto the initiative from the
perspective of this youngSeminole man who brings his
economics, finance and culturaltourism expertise, having been
(02:17):
drawn to Wind River by thebuffalo.
How are you, aj?
Anthony, yeah, all right,anthony, yeah.
Xavier (02:23):
AJ right on.
AJ (02:24):
Olivia.
Xavier (02:24):
Olivia, olivia, nice to meet you, nice to meet you, and
that's Yeshi.
Welcome, welcome.
AJ (02:29):
Thanks, man, it's good to be here.
Xavier (02:30):
Yeah, did you guys see the buffalo on the end?
No, oh, they're just around thecorner.
Really, we came in that wayPerfect, they're just right
there meet you, olivia andthere's a little yes, you over
(02:52):
the side.
AJ (02:52):
How are you?
Oh good, there's no hurry.
Yeah, no, it just occurred tome that you wrote the piece for
ap oh yeah, yeah, that I read Idon't know some bunch of time
ago and I went.
I just went back to it ahead ofcoming in.
I was like oh, hello oh, youwere just, you knew, knew.
This happened just recently.
Taylar (03:06):
Yeah, they had a position opened up and I was
kind of looking for somethingnew.
AJ (03:09):
Excellent, that's cool.
It's a great piece.
Taylar (03:12):
Thank you, I really liked it.
I appreciate that.
AJ (03:14):
And amazing photos.
Taylar (03:16):
I know we had somebody from the AP come out and it just
all worked out that we had abuffalo release that weekend.
AJ (03:22):
Yeah, really that was by chance.
Taylar (03:25):
Yeah, by chance.
AJ (03:25):
Oh my God, that's crazy.
It looked like that was thepoint of the whole thing.
No Cool.
Good to meet you guys.
It's a real honor to be here.
Xavier (03:34):
Where are you guys living back in Australia?
AJ (03:36):
We're on the west side, west side, yep, perth side, perth
side.
Yeah, have you been there.
Xavier (03:40):
Yeah, I got to go on a study abroad, went down the
coast, landed out in Brisbane,got to kayak around Noosa got to
end up in Sydney.
Went out to Lightning Ridge.
That place was fun.
Taylar (03:51):
Oh cool.
AJ (03:51):
Did you yeah Wow why?
Xavier (03:54):
It was actually.
I went to University of Wyomingfor my ag biz undergrad and at
the end of that I wanted to endoff with a capstone that was
meaningful and I found a programthat allowed you to go to an
Everglades ecosystem and there'sa Seminole from Florida.
AJ (04:10):
Yeah right on.
Xavier (04:11):
I was really looking to find a place like that and it
was so cool.
Noosa was really cool that way,oh my God.
The program was aboutAustralia's export-led
agricultural sector.
And everything was about howall the different farms out
there are managed and all thedifferent programs we went to uh
, even some parks out there.
AJ (04:31):
It was really cool, really yeah, that's interesting that,
because, yeah, that export-ledaspect to it is.
It's interesting, it'sinteresting.
Xavier (04:39):
Yeah, I'm a market guy and an economist at heart, so
like that was really interestingto learn about yeah, went to a
lot of wool farms?
AJ (04:45):
yeah, right on.
Yeah, especially on the eastside.
I mean, they live with sheephere as well, didn't they?
And they certainly did inaustralia.
It's turned a lot to cattle now, and particularly the more west
you go into, more open, youknow.
Yeah, drier terrains, harsherterrains, but it's beautiful out
there.
Xavier (05:03):
Oh my god, oh my God.
AJ (05:04):
That was so cool.
It's unreal and there's someactually fun and awesome stories
out of Lightning Ridge at themoment.
It's a gift that keeps ongiving.
Yeah, I want to get theremyself, because I try to get on
location, obviously, so I'mwaiting to get there to meet
some of the people we've beenhearing about, because, as we
get around the country which iswhat we've done for eight years
with this now it's just led hereover the last year but going
(05:28):
around australia doing it.
It's been really interestingthat a few voices have said go
lightning ridge, but then youget other voices that say go
somewhere.
So I've got this list of whenwe're ever near these places,
make calls and see what likehere and see if something can
happen.
Xavier (05:44):
I was fascinated by those opalized dinosaur fossils.
That was the coolest it's offthe charts dinosaur bones can
turn into opal.
Yeah, I saw a velociraptorcause that big and turned into
opal.
AJ (05:55):
It was a way cool spot that is nuts, but we got a cool spot
here too.
I asked Jordan and TK beforeand they said they haven't seen
him, so doesn't sound like he isyet okay, tika's my brother oh,
really, there we go.
Taylar (06:11):
Yeah, I can see it now that you mentioned, yeah well, I
can give him a text by bringingmy stuff uh and cool, and then
we want to just do a tour andyou can lead it.
I'm'm still training and stuff.
Xavier (06:22):
Yeah of course we can get you guys settled on.
AJ (06:26):
Thanks.
So, taylor, what have they got?
A bit of a mission in your rolehere as a journo.
Taylar (06:34):
Just get more information about the camp out
to people.
Our blog kind of I don't know.
I want more timely informationout to our local community.
AJ (06:44):
So that's my goal really, yeah, being out here is great
it's not journalistic as such,yeah, but it's still a story,
still a story, still a story,and important do you think I was
in Ronald's?
I think so I've followed Jasonin his story for a long time.
Taylar (06:57):
Yeah, you um.
AJ (07:01):
I think we listened to it, one of your region podcast and
we really liked it thanks, whichone did you pick?
Taylar (07:07):
the one about.
AJ (07:08):
It's a really popular movie by Martin Scorsese oh, killers
of the Flammeau, yeah at theOsage, yeah with the chief the
one before that before that withthe woman who introduced us
yeah, yeah, she's, she'sinteresting.
She was interesting.
Yeah, yeah, she was interesting.
Yeah, yeah, no.
The last one's going out nowwith the woman who essentially
ran a lot of the food,sovereignty and other stuff that
(07:29):
the chief talks about from ahigher level.
Oh, cool, she's superimpressive too.
Taylar (07:34):
A lot of really cool things.
AJ (07:35):
That's one of the more positive things that are
happening right now.
Is it?
Taylar (07:38):
Like in Indian country.
AJ (07:39):
Yeah, this is what we're seeing.
I mean, part of how we cameacross you guys was actually a
friend of Jason's Pedro is hisname up at American Prairie,
who's been recruited to do thebison program up there, and so
him and Jason go back a ways, itseems yeah, yeah, really
Buffalo community is reallytight.
I expect, but it's pretty cooltoo, from what I can gather yeah
(08:03):
, especially in Indian country,it's even more so.
Yeah, it's been a realhighlight of the journey.
Xavier (08:09):
I'm glad you guys got to see that program too, though.
That's cool.
AJ (08:12):
Yeah, it was.
And Pedro and his wife Flora.
She's really cool as well, andyou know they're out there, yeah
, right out there.
It's part of why they can't getstuff to stick.
It's a bit of a challenge ohremoteness, yeah that makes
sense.
Xavier (08:27):
Remoteness and even a harsher winter, I guess further
up yeah, I can see that we havesome remote problems with some
of our properties on really withour program too, yeah yeah, so
have you got a sense, taylor?
Taylar (08:40):
I'm curious with the media aspect of the approach you
take then to try and get thesestories out I think, um, my take
is, I come from a radiobackground, but also like
magazine writing, and I thinkleveraging both those things is
going to be really importantlike and I just want people to
(09:01):
like go to our website and beable to like use some of the
piece, some of our pieces thatwe're gonna write like we
recently had a youth and cultureclimate camp.
We had a bunch of students fromlocal um schools, like on the
reservation, out here and umpeople from the forest service
were out, um, some tribal elderswere out and we like uh, who
(09:24):
were done conveying stories likein a teepee and everything,
just like stuff like that.
That I think just needs to bemore, better, like better
documented on our websitebecause it's a really really
cool program.
It's the third year and Iremember like trying to find
like more information about itand I had a hard time like
reporting on it.
So from that aspect I was like,oh, I would like to help like
make that a little bit morevisible, because it's really
(09:46):
cool stuff and I think it makespeople more interested in like
coming out here supporting usall that stuff good, I think
just making some of the coolthings we do here a bit more
visible it's interesting youknow talking with so jan's her
name, that's on the podcast tofinish the series from the osage
.
AJ (10:03):
And she said, despite like particularly since COVID,
because they got COVID money andthey did a whole bunch of stuff
.
There's some overlaps too withmobile processing and other food
sovereignty stuff.
They've got a big greenhousethere now and a little market
and then they've got a mobilemarket they take around.
And she said but still peopledon, people don't know like
(10:25):
she'll come across people allthe time.
In fact, I've got theimpression from her and I find
this with a lot of the coolstories that we come across too
that if you asked you know thepeople on the street the vast
majority won't know, which goesto show how much the story piece
is beckoning.
Taylar (10:43):
No, yeah, I think we have a really good like national
and even international likeaudience.
But you're surprised like howmany like, local people don't
really know what we're doinghere and have misconceptions
about what we're doing here.
So I'm sure yeah, so a lot ofrumors get spread that way, so I
just want to maybe make it morevisible to them and make myself
more available to like answerquestions.
(11:04):
That's cool.
Have community events and allthat.
And Xavier's like training mebecause he's the Buffalo guy, he
knows all the fun facts.
Jason's been training him for acouple of years to do these
tours.
AJ (11:16):
Cool, yeah, yeah.
Xavier (11:18):
Well, I don't know about the Buffalo guy.
I'm a Buffalo guy in training,for sure.
Taylar (11:22):
Yeah.
Xavier (11:25):
I came out here, just you know.
Like I said, outside I'm aseminal member.
AJ (11:27):
A long ways from home.
Yeah, it's a long ways fromhere.
Xavier (11:30):
Palm trees are a lot different than alpine, but, um,
I'm excited to learn as much asI can here understand what it's
like to manage buffalo likewildlife, and that's that's kind
of the significance and theuniqueness about this program
specifically is Buffalo aremanaged primarily in the United
States as a livestock species,and that is not really how
(11:52):
they've existed on the landscapethroughout their historic time
here, and so what Jason's tryingto do is to reestablish both
the cultural and the ecologicalconnection from the buffalo to
the people and to the land, andso that really just means that
we need to manage them likewildlife species, like the deer,
(12:14):
like the elk, like thepronghorn antelope out here,
right, not like a cow where wehave to fence in, fence out.
We allow habitat for theselarge animal species to exist on
the landscape in the Wind Riverreservation here.
So we've got a couple maps toillustrate this, like the
(12:34):
boundaries here.
So this is the Wind RiverIndian Reservation boundaries
and these are the WRTBIboundaries and then the
reservation highlighted in whiteas well.
AJ (12:44):
Oh, that's interesting.
Xavier (12:45):
And so you guys said you guys stayed in Lander, so
Lander be down here, is that?
AJ (12:49):
right.
Yeah, that's right.
We just passed the Saun as soonas we started.
Xavier (12:53):
Yeah, you guys came in through Fort.
I imagine came up that way.
So me and Taylor live out byRiverton, just along the Wind
River, so there's a lot ofhistory that goes into a lot of
these boundaries.
right here there's about 200years of history that you need
to cover to really get a goodunderstanding of it spanning
(13:14):
from the Fort Bridger Treatywith the initial treaty with the
Shoshone tribes, and thenspanning even further into just
all of the different Wind Riveragreements itself and then
cutting down even further tothat chunk in the corner, the
McLaughlin Agreement, in whichall of those different
agreements spanned from 41million acres from the initial
(13:37):
agreement in 1886 to 1902, inthese boundaries when these ones
were established, and that nowis only two million acres that
are given to both the Shoshone,eastern Shoshone and the
northern Arapaho collectively.
And so it's really hard to justget an understanding of the
(13:59):
politics and the regulation andall of the different policies
and traffic politics that goesinto play with that aspect too.
Taylar (14:08):
Yeah, very unique in that two tribes are managing the
same land.
That typically doesn't happen.
Xavier (14:13):
Really.
Taylar (14:14):
Yeah.
Xavier (14:15):
No, yeah, usually if a tribe gets put on within another
boundary, like in Oklahoma,you'll see that a lot.
AJ (14:20):
Yeah.
Xavier (14:22):
And other reservations.
They either get incorporatedinto the other tribe or they um
they usually.
Just they don't have thatcollective power.
They usually have to give it toone or the other, usually the
one who's been there the longestyeah, oh, geez, that's
interesting.
AJ (14:36):
I didn't realize that.
It is a point of curiosity forme, though, how it works can't
always have been easy.
Yeah, but geez, you've got overthis stuff quick, then coming
from coming from afar.
What brought you here, thoughbuffalo?
Xavier (14:55):
really.
Yeah, I just wanted I've alwayswanted to work with buffalo and
try to figure out how to, howto work with them.
When I was a kid I thought, oh,I'm to be a buffalo rancher and
I'm like live out, you know,like my buffalo cowboy dreams
out in the West somewhere.
But I don't know, it's kind ofit's changed since then and now
I'm I'm realizing there's adeeper way, a more meaningful
(15:16):
way, that you can restorebuffalo back onto the landscape
and it'd be really cool to seethem back in the Everglades,
back in Florida, where they usedto be.
AJ (15:24):
I was gonna say, because their range was essentially
right across the continent.
I don't think many people knowthat.
Xavier (15:29):
Even it ranged from Florida to central Mexico to
central Alaska, all the way upto the Arctic Circle, and were
there parts of, say, the easternseaboard where they weren't?
Oh yeah, and they were migratory, so they were always moving,
yeah, and so there are partswhere they would occupy, but
they wouldn't stay very long.
And then you know there aremeadows that you can find along
(15:51):
the east coast that are justperfect for it and you can see
like feral horse species rightnow on the in, like California,
in the Carolinas, right on theright on the beach.
It's really cool to see thosetoo Really.
So there's like pockets ofsavannah, meadows, grassland,
rangeland that's perfect forbuffalo to exist right on the
coast too.
It's really cool, it'sinteresting and they're so
(16:13):
adaptable I mean really evenlike in the Carpathian forest in
Europe.
They have decentreintroductions where they have
buffalo species living withinthe woodlands themselves, and
they thrive within that kind ofecosystem too.
So interesting yeah they'resuper adaptable, super resilient
, and that's just one example ofthat.
(16:33):
Oh, that'd be fun.
I love buffalo box.
What's buffalo buffalo?
AJ (16:39):
box is my favorite.
Xavier (16:39):
It's our educational tool that I it's just.
It's the best.
You guys can get a hands-onexperience with the buffalo
parts.
We've got a lot of buffalogoodies stashed away in this guy
, our educational tool that.
It's just the best.
You guys can get a hands-onexperience with the buffalo
parts.
We've got a lot of buffalogoodies stashed away in this guy
.
This guy was made out in PineRidge oh, I forgot that
gentleman's name, but he makesso many different crafts with
these, like buffalo hidesthemselves.
He makes teepees.
(17:00):
He makes everything frombuffalo boxes to leather pieces,
everything in between.
Taylar (17:08):
I feel free to touch these.
They're made to be touched.
We bring them to schools and weplay little games with students
and everything to get them tothink about what these would be
used for, like this what is it?
AJ (17:21):
It's a rib.
Taylar (17:22):
Rib Digging probably.
Xavier (17:24):
Yeah, so our game is we ask you to first identify what
piece of the buffalo it is, andthen how you could use it.
What's the answer?
Did you hear that?
Yesha?
AJ (17:33):
Something big Hold that pose dude, I think that's.
Uh, that's not correct.
I only did that bit.
I know you did.
There was only one.
Xavier (17:46):
Oh my gosh, there's so many bits.
AJ (17:47):
All right, Ish, did you hear the task?
Xavier (17:49):
If you can just help me out here.
I would just ask if you firstidentify what part of the
buffalo it is and then tell mehow you would use it.
I would really appreciate it,and then we'll just go through
most of these real quickly.
This is a hollow one, that'sperfect.
How would you use that?
Oh, you could.
(18:11):
It's actually got a prettysolid tip at the end, so you'd
have to cut it pretty far down.
But one of the other thingsthat the tribes would mostly use
that for is a spoon.
If you'll allow me to just showyou right here where they cut
it, and then that's where theywould sand it down, and then you
would take that top as a handleand you can carve it into all
kinds of cool stuff.
Oh, cool.
Taylar (18:32):
And the difference between a horn and an antler.
Xavier (18:35):
There's a couple differences.
Do you know any one of them?
I'm guessing antlers are solidon the inside.
That's a good difference.
The other differences would bethat antlers fall off annually,
whereas horns grow every.
Yeah, that's right, they growfor their whole lifetime.
And they're made of twodifferent materials, which is
why there's one solid versus oneis hollow.
(18:56):
That's bone.
This is this is keratin.
That's a piece of hair.
That's your fingernails thesame materials.
Well, let me, let me get a goodlift too.
Oh no, that's buffalo for sure.
AJ (19:11):
Here she feel the difference in the white.
Yeah I'll trade you.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Xavier (19:16):
This is heavier.
Taylar (19:18):
Oh yeah, it is a little heavier.
AJ (19:18):
It's a lot taller, it's interesting how it keeps the
smell, I guess because it'samongst the hide.
Taylar (19:23):
We also have these from the pronghorn animal that are
around.
AJ (19:26):
Oh, the pronghorn are beautiful Aren't they, we like
them.
Xavier (19:30):
Fastest land mammal on the continent Is that right 60
miles per hour.
Are you kidding me?
And they used to be runningaround with American cheetahs.
Wow, there were once upon atime the Pleistocene.
There were Australian lions too.
Oh my god, what is it?
The thylacine cat or thylacinelion?
(19:50):
No, it's the tiger.
AJ (19:52):
Yeah, that's what it is, and the 12 foot kangaroos.
Xavier (19:57):
They're already scary enough.
Taylar (20:00):
Yeah, it was made out of that.
I don't know what part that wasmade out of, though.
Xavier (20:03):
So you would use a scapula for that bit.
If you hold it up into thelight, you can see exactly where
you can get it out of.
Or you can carve out this bitand it's more solid.
You can carve out this bit andit's more solid.
But this is perfect for shapingdown into that.
It has a little bit offlexibility, but not too much.
You can see it doesn't have toomuch give.
But other bones would have alittle bit more give.
(20:24):
So if you were to break down arib bone, you might have a
little bit more give.
So what would?
You might want something with alittle bit of flexibility, for
One of the things that you coulduse this item for a rib bone
would probably be an awl.
Do you guys sew at all?
So when you need to punch ahole into leather something this
thick two inch hide, with ahide that's two inch thick, you
(20:48):
need to punch a hole into itbefore you can stick a needle
through it.
So that's why you wantsomething with a little bit of
flexibility.
That way it doesn't just breakand snap on you, whereas if you
just use a tool made fromsomething like the densest bone
in the body, like the metatarsalor the metacarpal, which is the
lowest part of the forelimb, orthe hind limb, it needs to hold
(21:08):
up 2000 pounds of animals.
So it's gotta be really strong,strong.
So you would use that forsomething that you use
repeatedly or you're gonna weardown a lot over time, and that
would be for the flesh scraper.
AJ (21:20):
Alright, what's this bit?
Xavier (21:22):
Whoa, it's just a slightly bit bigger than your
shoulder blade.
Hey, I've got an idea.
It is amazing.
Once we get outside, I can showyou guys my buffalo hat.
Yeah, cool.
Taylar (21:33):
That's the scapula, which is the shoulder blade.
Xavier (21:35):
It's the same bone as this.
It's just the differencebetween a big bull versus a cow.
Taylar (21:39):
Those are the dewclaws in the back of the buffalo, like
right above the lips, andeverything.
On the hock and, if you like,jingle them.
That used to be used on regalia.
AJ (21:50):
Oh yeah.
I tell you, though, I was withthis elder in the north of
Western Australia and he took usaround and he said this tree,
this was our sandpaper.
And you pulled a leaf off andit was like sandpaper.
And then he's like this treewas the soap, and you rubbed it
and it started up.
And it was almost funny howeverything was already there,
(22:12):
and I'm getting it from thistable too.
It's like almost anything youcan want.
Xavier (22:16):
Jason, our founder, talks about how the buffalo was
the life's commissary for theShoshone and Plains people.
Just entirely.
Anything you can find atWalmart you can find in the
buffalo.
So that's why we like to justshowcase this buffalo box here
is to just showcase exactly thathow everything you can find in
the Buffalo has a use, and it'snot one use.
Everything can be brought downinto multiple things.
(22:38):
That's why we have the cheatsheet too.
AJ (22:40):
Oh, look at this sheet.
That's a.
That's actually a really goodproduction because it shows you
like it's full.
Xavier (22:47):
From the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail, we use
every part of the Buffalo that'sworth doing.
AJ (22:52):
It's interesting that Walmart metaphor reminds me of.
Remember Gloria at the festivalat chimney rock in Colorado,
and they were talking about theyucca plant.
They had a little demo thinggoing on there and she said,
yeah, it's the Walmart of theSouthwest, cause it was.
What was it?
It was food fiber and strong asall get out Yucca.
(23:14):
Yeah, that makes sense, thoughyeah a whole bunch of other uses
, same thing, a whole litany ofuses we would never have
imagined with differentpreparation, just from just
brilliant plant we can use ropefor just from the buffalo too.
Xavier (23:28):
albert, one of my uh friends over here at the program
, uh, also a graduate student atthe University of Wyoming, he's
been working on this spool fora long time.
He's probably worked on thisfor about two years now, really.
And that's from hide, yeah, no,this is just from the fluffs
that we find on the ground here.
And we've stuffed the bladderwith this, and this is really
(23:48):
just a showcase of how much hairthe buffalo have and what they
do when they actually getbrought back onto the landscape
itself with the hair.
The hair falls off annually,unlike cows, and they have
17,000 hairs per square inch asopposed to a cow, which only has
7,000 hairs per square inch.
And when that gets droppedaround on the landscape, it's
actually because it's the secondmost insulating fiber on the
(24:11):
continent.
It's actually really good forincubation for eggs and even for
nests for rodents, and so allof these critters are picking up
those hairs and they're usingit for their baby's nest.
Man.
AJ (24:24):
Okay, what's the most insulating material on the
continent?
Xavier (24:27):
Oh, I forgot what the first is.
I think it's muskox.
I think it's muskox is thefirst one.
Really, yeah, you can doublecheck right now.
That's right, we do, we.
Do you want to go check thoseout too?
We have three right here, butwe have many more in a way too.
Thanks, levi.
(24:49):
We got a big crew here.
We got about 12 people.
That's cool, yeah.
We got laborers, welders, wegot admin, office, finance,
communications, communityengagement.
That's very cool, yeah.
But back to our buffalo skullshere We've got three.
We're going to give these guysout to the community because
these were on request.
(25:10):
As WRTBI, as a nonprofitcharitable organization, we can
step in for those kinds ofcharitable needs, and so that
would be one of the things thatwe do as a program is to give
meat and buffalo products thatcan be given away for ceremonial
and cultural reasons back tothe community, and we can take
on those financial burdens as aprogram and we can just turn
(25:33):
that and incorporate that intoour operational budget and make
it into a part of our program ingeneral.
And so it's a really big partof our program when we give out
meat to our food commoditiesprogram for the Shoshone tribe
and then also to the WyomingFood Bank.
We've gotten partnerships withboth those programs to give meat
away to local communities, butthe skulls we usually just try
(25:56):
to take care of them as long aswe can until there's a need for
it.
So these two are going to begiven away and then this one
we're holding on to.
This one is meaningful justbecause he was the first one
that was killed on site.
AJ (26:08):
Is that right?
Xavier (26:08):
Yeah, he was the first one that was harvested here at
the program and so that doesintroduce the fact that do do
cultural harvests here on siteand we, you know, process those
animals we get, we take them outin the field and we we do that
as best we can culturally andtraditionally as well.
So there's a lot of differentaspects.
I go into?
AJ (26:28):
yeah, totally.
And were they adults too?
Xavier (26:31):
yeah, those were.
Those were about three or fouryear olds.
I think this guy was aboutseven or eight.
Man, look at the size of that.
Yeah, yeah, here I can holdthem up for you.
Whoa, you want to give it a?
Give it a hold 100.
AJ (26:43):
Oh yeah, that's heavy.
Xavier (26:45):
So, and if the horns aren't weighing much, it's all
skull it's the skull, and thenremember, there's about another
half of that with beard flesh,yeah, another all the tongue and
the brains and everything inbetween.
So it gets quite heavy.
It's beautiful, isn't it?
He's gorgeous.
We've got a couple of hideshere, but, honestly, this guy
that we have displayed out hereon the couch is our biggest hide
(27:06):
yet.
He's a 75 square foot hide.
He was the biggest one thatwe've probably ever harvested
here.
We did manage to keep the faceon it too.
Oh man, look at that.
AJ (27:18):
That's awesome.
Xavier (27:19):
Yeah, 75 square feet.
He was huge.
Most of them come out about 40or 30 square feet, but this guy
was massive.
He had about well over athousand pounds of meat.
Wow.
AJ (27:30):
So, as the finance guy, it's timely enough to ask how does
it broadly work in terms ofsupplying for community like
that, which is ideal, but how doyou make ends meet?
Xavier (27:42):
Well, most of our programming comes from private
foundations and as well as aportion of federal funding as
well as a portion of privatedonations as well funding as
well as a portion of privatedonations as well.
So we've got a mix ofpartnerships that have been
really helpful with conservationorganizations that also help
out a lot.
So, you know, National WildlifeFederation is one of our
(28:04):
biggest partnerships and they'vebeen one of our biggest
supporters from the beginning,and so that's one of the ways
that we allow, you know, we cando that and that's always been
the vision.
You know, when the vision is torestore thousands of animals
across thousands of acres andprotecting them under tribal law
as a wildlife species, you needto first build out those
(28:25):
programs, those partnershipswith all of these different
organizations, with tribal fishand game, with the local non
government organizations right,All of these different programs.
So that's kind of gets into
AJ (28:36):
gets a little bit into it without getting too deep into it
and is there a mind then, for Imean, that's all part and
parcel of a bigger vision,obviously, and you'd want that
to be forever.
I think about the federalgovernment situation at the
moment.
Other changeability how's thataffecting you?
Xavier (28:56):
it's affected us for sure, um, but I wouldn't say in
a negative way.
In a lot of ways it's justchanging the way that we're
looking at how we're operating,and so we're changing a lot of
the ways that we're partnering,structuring our partnerships,
and so now we're just, you know,as we scale up, we're finding
that there's a lot of moresecure funding out there that
(29:17):
we're not really we haven'ttapped into as indigenous people
.
There's not a lot of share ofprivate philanthropy that goes
into American Indian communitiesin general, and so that's one
of the avenues that we're tryingto really strengthen with
partners like First NationsDevelopment Institute, world
Wildlife Fund and even NatureConservancy.
(29:37):
These are organizations thatare strengthening that
partnership too.
AJ (29:40):
Is it?
I mean, you seem to be across alot of the history as well.
I'm wondering is that somethingthat's shifted, or shifting the
interest, the appreciation fromthose quarters of the tribes?
Xavier (29:56):
I would say so and, like I would say, the history has a
lot to do with it and I thinkthat there's a lot of pending
responsibilities, both onindividuals and to nations and
to organizations in a lot ofregards, and so some of them are
starting to step up to theplate and some of them are still
still still need to be talkedwith.
We need to create those avenuesand those partnerships and that
(30:19):
trust first, and so there's alot of ways that indigenous
people and those organizationscan can meet and and we're
trying to, we're trying toutilize that history as best we
can with and in respectful way.
I mean, there's so much traumain that regard that needs to be
reconciled with.
And the biggest piece is thebuffalo.
(30:40):
I mean, the buffalo themselveswere almost taken out.
There were only a couple dozenleft in Yellowstone with the
genetic reputability before theywere gone in their bottleneck
period towards the late 1800s.
If we had lost those animals,then there's no telling.
(31:03):
There's no telling what wouldhave happened, because the only
ones that were outside of thepark at that time were beefalo.
And those those are not.
You know, that doesn't havethose true genetics, those,
those, those, those desirabletraits that make the buffalo
both physiologically andbehaviorally adapted to this
environment.
Specifically.
That create that ecologicalriprocity.
And so there's a lot ofAmericans really value highly
(31:37):
value is it's not just anindigenous history, really, it's
something that all reallypeople can connect to.
I mean, as a buffalo, we wentfrom a couple dozen to now we're
at 500,000, right, I meanthey're still ecologically
extinct.
They don't exist on largelandscapes across large
populations.
But we're working, we'regetting there and you know we're
(31:59):
up to about 25,000 geneticallyreputable animals and about
20,000 tribal animals as well.
So I mean that's just thebreakdown of it in terms of
quantitatively, but I meanthere's still a ways to go too,
but I mean that's just a reallybig piece of it too.
AJ (32:15):
I think Did it all restart, if you like, out of Yellowstone.
Was it that 24 that were thekey to what's become?
Xavier (32:23):
Yeah, a large part of them, and then there were a
couple of other herds that werekept outside.
I heard there was anotherindividual tribal member that
was also able to hold on to somegenetically reputable animals
and helped restore that lineagetoo.
I'm not sure exactly on everyherd, but Yellowstone animals
(32:46):
themselves play a big part inthat reintroduction.
AJ (32:49):
It's amazing to think how a moment in time, hey, just that
story of survival and nowresurgence, yeah it is.
Xavier (32:58):
It is really cool to see and really cool to see happen
here in a travel context tooit's always yeah, even for us.
AJ (33:05):
You know, as outsiders we can, we can feel it, so we can
only imagine into the broaderfeeling for you guys.
It's interesting too to hearyou talk about the finances.
It's a very similar picture inaustralia and a very similar
approach that people are tryingto take, but it's fair to say
it's not really come throughsystematically yet.
(33:26):
You could say the trust isstill and the understanding that
you alluded to is still beingbuilt, which does then raise the
specter of how that's best done.
But yeah, very similar sort ofefforts and processes back home.
Xavier (33:42):
Yeah, it was really cool to see all the natural resource
crediting that's going on inAustralia and all of those
programs like with Wilmot Cattle.
That was really cool to see whenI got to visit there.
They were a really interestingcase study.
But to see that sort ofvaluation of a natural resource,
to the point of which you cando accrediting systems, is
(34:02):
really interesting and there'sall ways that we can tap into
that valuation of these naturalresources anyways, and we need
to utilize not just creditingsystems and not these, these new
systems, these greenwashsystems, but also these, um,
really uh, stable and and reallyfoundational systems like
(34:24):
conservation and sportsmen andand in that nature and you know,
hunting has always been a partof a part of this conservation
story, and so that that's whyJason is working to restore the
buffalo, honestly, because hegrew up hunting here and he
didn't quite grasp why here onthe Wind River Indian
(34:44):
Reservation, just 60 milesoutside of Yellowstone, he
wasn't able to hunt buffalo.
When his elders talked aboutthese huge hunts that spanned
miles and miles in the buffalothat would span as far as the
eye can see, I mean whathappened and and that's why we
do take the approach we do, Ithink it's interesting you talk
(35:04):
about those credit programs andstick the word greenwash in
there too.
AJ (35:08):
It also just makes me think logically, like if you're going
to, this is critique, right, I'mappreciative of what it can
offer to, and so I'll be curiouson more of your thoughts there.
But if you do value more of,let's just say, the living world
in that way, the critique is,or one of the critiques is at
what point does that become aprice that, for those who can
(35:32):
pay, it is worth paying?
Um, so this forest versus thatmuch money, I'm happy to take
the forest or whatever.
Xavier (35:39):
How do you balance that right?
How do?
You balance that consumptionversus the conservation.
Exactly.
Well, I agree, it's a really,really tricky balance that you
have to meet, but indigenouspeople have been meeting it for
centuries.
It can be done, it has and ithas been done, and what we're
trying to do is restore thatsystem that we had in place with
(35:59):
the buffalo, and one of theways that we can do that is with
well tribal programs, mostlyacross the United States.
American Indian nations haveheld on to that sovereign
position that they hold theability to hunt their own
animals on their own lands, andthat's exclusive, and so that's
one of the tools that we'reensuring is not going to lead to
that overconsumption of thebuffalo and it's going to making
(36:23):
sure that we instill thosecultural values along with that
economic value.
It's a really complex system,but I think that's one of the
ways we're trying to do it.
Taylar (36:34):
That's what you're studying too.
Xavier (36:35):
Yeah, my graduate program is in environmental
natural resources in society andmy thesis is going to be on
turning out an ecotourismfeasibility study for WRTBI to
scale up as we move forward.
And I think before we can getto the point where we're doing
lodging and visits and reallylarge scale tours, visits and
(37:03):
really large scale tours we needto first create a lot of those
principles that are going to beethically driven and we need to
incorporate that into thestrategy here at WRTBI.
So that's one of my researchfocuses and the other focus is
also as an economist.
I just love looking at demand,so I love willingness to pay
studies and contingent valuationstuff.
So yeah, I'm doing all thatcool stuff in my research and
(37:23):
thesis stuff that's brilliant.
AJ (37:27):
It's funny.
I was just talking about theeco-tourism thing too.
There's a big conference when Iget back home that I've been
asked to emcee regenerativeagriculture, transforming food
systems, in this bigger picturesense to be good for learning,
good for culture, cultures, anda lot of it is about investment,
like.
So what we're talking about howto, how to have the
(37:47):
partnerships and the and theinvestment flow into where it
needs to for the benefit of thewhole, and ecotourism was, I
felt like in the conversation,was one of the flanks that
hadn't been brought up much yet.
There's a local exemplar on astation.
We call them not ranches inOutback, as we call it Western
(38:07):
Australia.
Xavier (38:08):
You know this.
AJ (38:09):
Western Australia and they're still cleaning up awards
for doing it in a.
Really I'm talking aboutWoolene Station.
For listeners who know someonewill have already picked it.
In a way that was led by whatmatters, what's valued most, and
then the finances flowed from,I could say, honoring that, and
(38:35):
then it turns into education andunderstanding, without even
having to put that label on it.
You don't come here to beeducated as such, but you're,
you are learning by virtue ofconnecting, and there's
transaction, which includes butit's an entirely money and there
are different ways that theywould play that out and not to
burn themselves out too.
(38:55):
So you know there's a whole 15years now, or whatever, 18 years
in the running of.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
Now they're cruising.
They've even brought an oldheritage kitchen that was seven
miles away where a camp used tobe.
They brought it across to thehomestead and run a cafe out of
it.
I mean we're talking 400 milesout of perth, in the outback
(39:18):
gotcha, but you know the waythis used to be when it was
extractive.
They used to have tuxedodinners in the in the homestead,
because it was just.
I mean, they were landscultivated by indigenous people
over millennia that hadwaist-high grasses.
Now, through that area it'sthought about as red dirt
(39:38):
country, right like that's theaustralia.
Okay, it's not, oh it had hiphigh grasses so
imagine the europeans going inand going get the livestock.
On this we've hit paradise, butit it's a whole different soil
structure, so it destroyed it.
And even there, you know, 18years into their project,
they've got knee-high grassesback, and we're talking 400,000
(39:59):
acres, and stuff pops up all thetime with seeds that were still
in the ground, but they haven'tseen the hip-high ones come
back.
So nobody knows quite what thatwas, except that it's recorded
by the colonists as they camethrough on their horses.
Yeah, but back to theecotourism thing, though.
It does say I mean there will afew other examples too, it's
(40:20):
just the one we know and becomefriends with.
But it does say there are waysof doing it.
Oh yeah, that can be cool.
I guess you're seeing othercase studies too.
Xavier (40:29):
Oh yeah yeah.
There's so many differentexamples of indigenous people
being able to utilize ecotourismin a way that benefits both
culturally and ecologically.
And oh, in a way that benefitsboth culturally and ecologically
, and, oh my gosh, they're socool to see.
But there's more examples ofnon-Indigenous folk coming in
and using ecotourism as well ina way that's extractive and in a
(40:49):
way that leads to more negativethan anything.
AJ (40:53):
Really oh yeah.
Xavier (40:54):
There's both.
So you've got to be careful andthere's a way that you've got
to approach it that's reallystrategic and so like that's.
I think that's one of thereasons why my my study is so is
so.
Cool to me is just learningabout all the different ways
that ecotourism has taken shape.
I mean, as a Seminole, one ofour first enterprises was
(41:15):
ecotourism, when we incorporatedcultural traditions and
teachings into our businesspractices.
I mean, we're credited as oneof the finest alligator
wrestlers in the area and thatwas credited from being able to
handle alligators hunting, youknow, by ourselves.
When we needed to pull back abull gator, we didn't have a
whole hunting party, we justneeded to have ourselves in our
(41:38):
own little knot and we were ableto pull them back.
And that's exactly what we wereable to incorporate into some
of the first alligator wrestlingshows and that was one of the
biggest Miami touristattractions in the area all the
way up until we starteddiversifying and we got into
some more enterprises.
And I think that thoseteachings are important to hold
(41:59):
on to because those are going tobe what provide a lot of
understanding into your, intoyour practices, into your
businesses, into and and andeven into ways, into doing
things in a non-consumptive waydoes it need a change in
language, I'm curious or just achange in meaning to the to the
term ecotourism?
(42:22):
I think.
I think ecotourism doesn't havea set definition, and that
leads to a lot of contention,and I try to incorporate that
into my my focus too.
But I think I think it'sactually cool to see how it
could be both a practice, anoutcome or a management tool.
I actually think that it'sactually cool to see how it can
be both a practice, an outcomeor a management tool.
I actually think that it'sreally adaptable like the
(42:43):
buffalo in that way, and so Ithink it's really cool to see
how ecotourism can take shape.
We just need to be carefulabout how we do it.
AJ (42:51):
Good one Before we let go of this chapter.
It occurred to me before youwere talking about the buffalo's
appeal, or the way people dofeel it, across cultures, even
beyond First Nations, colonialcultures, settler cultures, and
I know, of course, that it's onthe state flag of Wyoming.
I'm curious even how that cameabout.
(43:11):
More amenable to doing thathere, or is there just as much
navigating the politicaltrickiness that you were talking
about?
Xavier (43:25):
before.
I think there's always going tobe navigating the bureaucracies
, especially around Buffalo.
There's just so much historythat needs to be addressed
before we can get to the pointwhere they are on the landscape
like a wildlife species.
But in Wyoming it's reallyinteresting to look at that flag
and and see, see, not reallynot see the buffalo.
(43:49):
I mean, you see them out inYellowstone but, and a couple of
private ranches here and there,but you don't see them, you
know, thriving in the thousands,in the millions or in the tens
of thousands, like they used to.
Yellowstone has a population of6,000 right now.
The Wyoming state we're tryingto partner with as closely as we
can because we don't want tosee the contention that we see
(44:12):
in other states with the buffalothat surround us.
Yeah, montana is a highlycontentious area when it comes
to Buffalo because of thehistory and because of the
contemporary aspects of thestate.
But Wyoming, I think, is more,is in a lot of ways more
(44:32):
amenable to to the Buffalocoming back.
I think, and we've talked withdifferent leadership within the
state and within servicesagencies Fish and Wildlife
Service to try to, you know,address any and all concerns
that come with buffaloreintroduction.
I mean there's going to be alot of them, and so we need to
(44:54):
figure out the best way toaddress each and every one of
them, and we do so in a waythat's transparent.
We do so in a way with the statewhere we're working with them
throughout the whole process,with the planning,
implementation and then alsolooking back on it and figuring
out where we can improve.
That's going to be importantand vital, and that's totally
what we're doing, so I thinkthat's why we're doing so.
I think the flag is aninteresting example, though
(45:17):
Jason talks about how that thatwhite buffalo reminds him just
of the ghost of the buffalo in alot of ways, and it's, it's a
white buffalo on on thelandscape on a blue background,
and it I don't know it doesn'tthe reason we have our, our logo
.
The way it is is is actually um, here.
Let me try to there it is ourlogo here is actually a an
(45:40):
example of what we try toincorporate.
You know, traditional imagery,and it's a mama buffalo, um, and
it's a live buffalo, and thatactually can is juxtaposed to a
lot of or, you know, is todifferentiate between all of the
most logos of buffalo programs,you'll see is as a skull, as a
(46:01):
skull of a buffalo, and sothat's why, you know, we don't I
mean, we looked at that flag,jason looked at that flag and
saw a ghost, and I'm sure hethought about that as well
whenever we talked about ourlogo too.
So you know, there's I mean,there's a lot of different
meaning behind buffalo imagesand it's important.
The buffalo treaty, if youhaven't heard about it, is
(46:24):
really cool because it's aagreement between a lot of
different indigenous folks outhere that are trying to create
um, what do they call it?
Buffalo awareness, um, and andbuffalo awareness is cool
because you can once they pointit out to you, you start to see
Buffalo everywhere.
I mean it's crazy.
You see Buffalo in almost everypart of American life, really.
(46:49):
You see it in our seals, yousee it in logos, you see it in
media, you see it everywhere,even in place names Buffalo, new
York, it's true, yeah, yeah.
So that's why we need it'simportant to just be aware
Buffalo aware is.
What I like to do is like callit.
AJ (47:08):
Yeah, no, we've totally noticed that.
Yeah, all across the country.
Yeah, it's, it's been a pointof curiosity.
I mean curiosity, to put itlightly, the paradoxes and
contradictions and complexitiesin it all.
Yeah, yeah, so it's interestingto hear you talk about it.
Oh, fascinating.
Did we leave coffee cold thatyou were looking forward to?
No, I think it's perfecttemperature.
There we go.
(47:29):
It's a great logo too.
Xavier (47:31):
I do love it yeah, I'll have to get you guys some hats
before you go.
Oh, cool.
AJ (47:34):
Thanks man, thanks man.
So this is HQ.
Xavier (47:41):
This is headquarters.
We call it grandma's house.
Grandma's house, what is?
AJ (47:45):
it Grandma's house.
What is that?
Xavier (47:46):
Well, it used to be a place of residence.
Yeah, it looks like it, andthat's actually the hotel door
that was originally put in allof this, in all of these rooms,
that was the size.
That's cool, I know it tellsyou something doesn't it?
Yeah, it was.
I believe it was built out 1900, late or early 1910s Something
(48:07):
like that, it was a stage stopBecause this was the trail from
here to Yellowstone.
It was a stage stop.
AJ (48:14):
Do we know much about the occupants?
Not the originals?
It'd be interesting, wouldn't?
Xavier (48:20):
it Well cool.
I'm excited to go look at somebuffalo.
Yeah, I hope they're stillright there.
Yeah, how long?
How much time do you guys have?
We're in no hurry.
AJ (48:30):
Is that a dangerous thing to say?
Xavier (48:31):
Yeah, a little bit.
Oh man, we got all kinds ofthings to show you guys.
Oh mate keep going.
AJ (48:37):
if you got the time, we got the time.
Oh wait, yeah, we have a Jasoncoming.
Hey, cool G'day Jason.
How's it going?
How are you.
Taylar (48:47):
Good to meet you, man Nice to meet you, yeah, how you
doing.
AJ (48:49):
That's my wife Olivia.
Taylar (48:50):
Hello, nice to meet you, and that's Yeshi.
AJ (48:53):
It's Jason Hi nice to meet you.
How are you guys doing?
Taylar (48:56):
We're doing good man, how are you Thanks for these?
AJ (49:01):
guys helping out.
Sorry I was late, guys, noworries, it's been terrific.
We've just let the tape rolland chew on the fat.
They miked me, jason.
Nice, fancy wireless one.
I didn't see those two offaround here.
They're actually from Australia.
They're an Australian company.
Oh, everything okay.
Yeah, it was all good.
There's a Sundance going on, sofamilies are getting ready to
(49:21):
gather up all the brush andeverything.
They're setting up camp for aweek down there.
Wow, cool.
I needed to use my truck andtrailer so I had to get it ready
for them.
It was kind of a last minutething, so Cool, yeah, Alright
you got everything, we'll jumpin this red one here, cool.
Taylar (49:50):
You can go in either one you want.
Xavier (49:52):
You want to come with us , yeah.
Taylar (49:54):
We'll get a door for you .
AJ (49:59):
That was part one of our two-part series from the Wind
River Tribal Buffalo Initiativewith Xavier Michael Young and
Taylor Dawn Stagner.
Some pics and links on thewebsite and, as always, more for
you enerous paid subscriberssoon, with great thanks for
making it all possible.
While we're on that, specialthanks this week to Alison
Lullfitz, sally Fields, alisonWorthington, luke Sweet, justin
(50:23):
Von Perger, kersti Wagstaff andJosh Mullens for being paid
subscribers for three years now.
I'm so grateful for you all.
We'd love you to join us if youcan get some exclusive stuff
and help keep the show going byheading to the website or the
show notes and following theprompts.
Stay tuned next week for parttwo with the initiative's
(50:43):
founder, jason Baldes, out inthe field with the buffalo.
The music you're hearing isRegeneration by Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your
independent listener supportedpodcast exploring how people are
regenerating the systems andstories we live by.
Welcome to the Wind RiverReservation home of the Eastern
Shoshone and Arapaho Nations andthe Wind River Tribal Buffalo
Initiative, a tribally-lednon-profit founded in 2023 here
(00:30):
at the foot of the RockyMountains in current-day Wyoming
.
This initiative and its founder, jason Baldes, had been coming
increasingly to my attention aswe travelled the US and, with
such unique and extraordinaryaspects to the story, I was
stoked we could meet up today.
I had started recording onarrival, as you can hear,
(00:51):
because bird sounds were just sobeautiful and we had a little
time before Jason arrived.
He'd been delayed with somefamily needs around the coming
Sundance, which reminded me ofhaving read about how buffalo
meat had been sourced for thetribe's 2023 Sundance from their
own animals on their own landfor the first time in nearly 140
(01:13):
years, and that's just a hintof the momentous shifts
happening here.
So in the time we had beforeJason arrived, we got to meet
some of the initiative'sbrilliant young staff, including
Xavier Michael Young and TaylorDawn Stagner.
They warmly welcomed us in andwere a treasure trove of passion
(01:33):
, insight and vision.
So our time with them formsthis first part of our two-part
series from the Wind RiverTribal Buffalo Initiative.
In part two, next week we'llhead out to the buffalo with
Jason Baldes.
Right now, though, let's startat the start.
We meet Taylor, award-winningjournalist, enrolled member of
(01:54):
the Cheyenne Arapaho tribes ofOklahoma and an Eastern Shoshone
descendant, and now theinitiative's new community
engagement director, and we alsomeet Xavier, offering us the
opportunity to delve ever deeperinto the initiative from the
perspective of this youngSeminole man who brings his
economics, finance and culturaltourism expertise, having been
(02:17):
drawn to Wind River by thebuffalo.
How are you, aj?
Anthony, yeah, all right,anthony, yeah.
Xavier (02:23):
AJ right on.
AJ (02:24):
Olivia.
Xavier (02:24):
Olivia, olivia, nice to meet you, nice to meet you, and
that's Yeshi.
Welcome, welcome.
AJ (02:29):
Thanks, man, it's good to be here.
Xavier (02:30):
Yeah, did you guys see the buffalo on the end?
No, oh, they're just around thecorner.
Really, we came in that wayPerfect, they're just right
there meet you, olivia andthere's a little yes, you over
(02:52):
the side.
AJ (02:52):
How are you?
Oh good, there's no hurry.
Yeah, no, it just occurred tome that you wrote the piece for
ap oh yeah, yeah, that I read Idon't know some bunch of time
ago and I went.
I just went back to it ahead ofcoming in.
I was like oh, hello oh, youwere just, you knew, knew.
This happened just recently.
Taylar (03:06):
Yeah, they had a position opened up and I was
kind of looking for somethingnew.
AJ (03:09):
Excellent, that's cool.
It's a great piece.
Taylar (03:12):
Thank you, I really liked it.
I appreciate that.
AJ (03:14):
And amazing photos.
Taylar (03:16):
I know we had somebody from the AP come out and it just
all worked out that we had abuffalo release that weekend.
AJ (03:22):
Yeah, really that was by chance.
Taylar (03:25):
Yeah, by chance.
AJ (03:25):
Oh my God, that's crazy.
It looked like that was thepoint of the whole thing.
No Cool.
Good to meet you guys.
It's a real honor to be here.
Xavier (03:34):
Where are you guys living back in Australia?
AJ (03:36):
We're on the west side, west side, yep, perth side, perth
side.
Yeah, have you been there.
Xavier (03:40):
Yeah, I got to go on a study abroad, went down the
coast, landed out in Brisbane,got to kayak around Noosa got to
end up in Sydney.
Went out to Lightning Ridge.
That place was fun.
Taylar (03:51):
Oh cool.
AJ (03:51):
Did you yeah Wow why?
Xavier (03:54):
It was actually.
I went to University of Wyomingfor my ag biz undergrad and at
the end of that I wanted to endoff with a capstone that was
meaningful and I found a programthat allowed you to go to an
Everglades ecosystem and there'sa Seminole from Florida.
AJ (04:10):
Yeah right on.
Xavier (04:11):
I was really looking to find a place like that and it
was so cool.
Noosa was really cool that way,oh my God.
The program was aboutAustralia's export-led
agricultural sector.
And everything was about howall the different farms out
there are managed and all thedifferent programs we went to uh
, even some parks out there.
AJ (04:31):
It was really cool, really yeah, that's interesting that,
because, yeah, that export-ledaspect to it is.
It's interesting, it'sinteresting.
Xavier (04:39):
Yeah, I'm a market guy and an economist at heart, so
like that was really interestingto learn about yeah, went to a
lot of wool farms?
AJ (04:45):
yeah, right on.
Yeah, especially on the eastside.
I mean, they live with sheephere as well, didn't they?
And they certainly did inaustralia.
It's turned a lot to cattle now, and particularly the more west
you go into, more open, youknow.
Yeah, drier terrains, harsherterrains, but it's beautiful out
there.
Xavier (05:03):
Oh my god, oh my God.
AJ (05:04):
That was so cool.
It's unreal and there's someactually fun and awesome stories
out of Lightning Ridge at themoment.
It's a gift that keeps ongiving.
Yeah, I want to get theremyself, because I try to get on
location, obviously, so I'mwaiting to get there to meet
some of the people we've beenhearing about, because, as we
get around the country which iswhat we've done for eight years
with this now it's just led hereover the last year but going
(05:28):
around australia doing it.
It's been really interestingthat a few voices have said go
lightning ridge, but then youget other voices that say go
somewhere.
So I've got this list of whenwe're ever near these places,
make calls and see what likehere and see if something can
happen.
Xavier (05:44):
I was fascinated by those opalized dinosaur fossils.
That was the coolest it's offthe charts dinosaur bones can
turn into opal.
Yeah, I saw a velociraptorcause that big and turned into
opal.
AJ (05:55):
It was a way cool spot that is nuts, but we got a cool spot
here too.
I asked Jordan and TK beforeand they said they haven't seen
him, so doesn't sound like he isyet okay, tika's my brother oh,
really, there we go.
Taylar (06:11):
Yeah, I can see it now that you mentioned, yeah well, I
can give him a text by bringingmy stuff uh and cool, and then
we want to just do a tour andyou can lead it.
I'm'm still training and stuff.
Xavier (06:22):
Yeah of course we can get you guys settled on.
AJ (06:26):
Thanks.
So, taylor, what have they got?
A bit of a mission in your rolehere as a journo.
Taylar (06:34):
Just get more information about the camp out
to people.
Our blog kind of I don't know.
I want more timely informationout to our local community.
AJ (06:44):
So that's my goal really, yeah, being out here is great
it's not journalistic as such,yeah, but it's still a story,
still a story, still a story,and important do you think I was
in Ronald's?
I think so I've followed Jasonin his story for a long time.
Taylar (06:57):
Yeah, you um.
AJ (07:01):
I think we listened to it, one of your region podcast and
we really liked it thanks, whichone did you pick?
Taylar (07:07):
the one about.
AJ (07:08):
It's a really popular movie by Martin Scorsese oh, killers
of the Flammeau, yeah at theOsage, yeah with the chief the
one before that before that withthe woman who introduced us
yeah, yeah, she's, she'sinteresting.
She was interesting.
Yeah, yeah, she was interesting.
Yeah, yeah, no.
The last one's going out nowwith the woman who essentially
ran a lot of the food,sovereignty and other stuff that
(07:29):
the chief talks about from ahigher level.
Oh, cool, she's superimpressive too.
Taylar (07:34):
A lot of really cool things.
AJ (07:35):
That's one of the more positive things that are
happening right now.
Is it?
Taylar (07:38):
Like in Indian country.
AJ (07:39):
Yeah, this is what we're seeing.
I mean, part of how we cameacross you guys was actually a
friend of Jason's Pedro is hisname up at American Prairie,
who's been recruited to do thebison program up there, and so
him and Jason go back a ways, itseems yeah, yeah, really
Buffalo community is reallytight.
I expect, but it's pretty cooltoo, from what I can gather yeah
(08:03):
, especially in Indian country,it's even more so.
Yeah, it's been a realhighlight of the journey.
Xavier (08:09):
I'm glad you guys got to see that program too, though.
That's cool.
AJ (08:12):
Yeah, it was.
And Pedro and his wife Flora.
She's really cool as well, andyou know they're out there, yeah
, right out there.
It's part of why they can't getstuff to stick.
It's a bit of a challenge ohremoteness, yeah that makes
sense.
Xavier (08:27):
Remoteness and even a harsher winter, I guess further
up yeah, I can see that we havesome remote problems with some
of our properties on really withour program too, yeah yeah, so
have you got a sense, taylor?
Taylar (08:40):
I'm curious with the media aspect of the approach you
take then to try and get thesestories out I think, um, my take
is, I come from a radiobackground, but also like
magazine writing, and I thinkleveraging both those things is
going to be really importantlike and I just want people to
(09:01):
like go to our website and beable to like use some of the
piece, some of our pieces thatwe're gonna write like we
recently had a youth and cultureclimate camp.
We had a bunch of students fromlocal um schools, like on the
reservation, out here and umpeople from the forest service
were out, um, some tribal elderswere out and we like uh, who
(09:24):
were done conveying stories likein a teepee and everything,
just like stuff like that.
That I think just needs to bemore, better, like better
documented on our websitebecause it's a really really
cool program.
It's the third year and Iremember like trying to find
like more information about itand I had a hard time like
reporting on it.
So from that aspect I was like,oh, I would like to help like
make that a little bit morevisible, because it's really
(09:46):
cool stuff and I think it makespeople more interested in like
coming out here supporting usall that stuff good, I think
just making some of the coolthings we do here a bit more
visible it's interesting youknow talking with so jan's her
name, that's on the podcast tofinish the series from the osage
.
AJ (10:03):
And she said, despite like particularly since COVID,
because they got COVID money andthey did a whole bunch of stuff
.
There's some overlaps too withmobile processing and other food
sovereignty stuff.
They've got a big greenhousethere now and a little market
and then they've got a mobilemarket they take around.
And she said but still peopledon, people don't know like
(10:25):
she'll come across people allthe time.
In fact, I've got theimpression from her and I find
this with a lot of the coolstories that we come across too
that if you asked you know thepeople on the street the vast
majority won't know, which goesto show how much the story piece
is beckoning.
Taylar (10:43):
No, yeah, I think we have a really good like national
and even international likeaudience.
But you're surprised like howmany like, local people don't
really know what we're doinghere and have misconceptions
about what we're doing here.
So I'm sure yeah, so a lot ofrumors get spread that way, so I
just want to maybe make it morevisible to them and make myself
more available to like answerquestions.
(11:04):
That's cool.
Have community events and allthat.
And Xavier's like training mebecause he's the Buffalo guy, he
knows all the fun facts.
Jason's been training him for acouple of years to do these
tours.
AJ (11:16):
Cool, yeah, yeah.
Xavier (11:18):
Well, I don't know about the Buffalo guy.
I'm a Buffalo guy in training,for sure.
Taylar (11:22):
Yeah.
Xavier (11:25):
I came out here, just you know.
Like I said, outside I'm aseminal member.
AJ (11:27):
A long ways from home.
Yeah, it's a long ways fromhere.
Xavier (11:30):
Palm trees are a lot different than alpine, but, um,
I'm excited to learn as much asI can here understand what it's
like to manage buffalo likewildlife, and that's that's kind
of the significance and theuniqueness about this program
specifically is Buffalo aremanaged primarily in the United
States as a livestock species,and that is not really how
(11:52):
they've existed on the landscapethroughout their historic time
here, and so what Jason's tryingto do is to reestablish both
the cultural and the ecologicalconnection from the buffalo to
the people and to the land, andso that really just means that
we need to manage them likewildlife species, like the deer,
(12:14):
like the elk, like thepronghorn antelope out here,
right, not like a cow where wehave to fence in, fence out.
We allow habitat for theselarge animal species to exist on
the landscape in the Wind Riverreservation here.
So we've got a couple maps toillustrate this, like the
(12:34):
boundaries here.
So this is the Wind RiverIndian Reservation boundaries
and these are the WRTBIboundaries and then the
reservation highlighted in whiteas well.
AJ (12:44):
Oh, that's interesting.
Xavier (12:45):
And so you guys said you guys stayed in Lander, so
Lander be down here, is that?
AJ (12:49):
right.
Yeah, that's right.
We just passed the Saun as soonas we started.
Xavier (12:53):
Yeah, you guys came in through Fort.
I imagine came up that way.
So me and Taylor live out byRiverton, just along the Wind
River, so there's a lot ofhistory that goes into a lot of
these boundaries.
right here there's about 200years of history that you need
to cover to really get a goodunderstanding of it spanning
(13:14):
from the Fort Bridger Treatywith the initial treaty with the
Shoshone tribes, and thenspanning even further into just
all of the different Wind Riveragreements itself and then
cutting down even further tothat chunk in the corner, the
McLaughlin Agreement, in whichall of those different
agreements spanned from 41million acres from the initial
(13:37):
agreement in 1886 to 1902, inthese boundaries when these ones
were established, and that nowis only two million acres that
are given to both the Shoshone,eastern Shoshone and the
northern Arapaho collectively.
And so it's really hard to justget an understanding of the
(13:59):
politics and the regulation andall of the different policies
and traffic politics that goesinto play with that aspect too.
Taylar (14:08):
Yeah, very unique in that two tribes are managing the
same land.
That typically doesn't happen.
Xavier (14:13):
Really.
Taylar (14:14):
Yeah.
Xavier (14:15):
No, yeah, usually if a tribe gets put on within another
boundary, like in Oklahoma,you'll see that a lot.
AJ (14:20):
Yeah.
Xavier (14:22):
And other reservations.
They either get incorporatedinto the other tribe or they um
they usually.
Just they don't have thatcollective power.
They usually have to give it toone or the other, usually the
one who's been there the longestyeah, oh, geez, that's
interesting.
AJ (14:36):
I didn't realize that.
It is a point of curiosity forme, though, how it works can't
always have been easy.
Yeah, but geez, you've got overthis stuff quick, then coming
from coming from afar.
What brought you here, thoughbuffalo?
Xavier (14:55):
really.
Yeah, I just wanted I've alwayswanted to work with buffalo and
try to figure out how to, howto work with them.
When I was a kid I thought, oh,I'm to be a buffalo rancher and
I'm like live out, you know,like my buffalo cowboy dreams
out in the West somewhere.
But I don't know, it's kind ofit's changed since then and now
I'm I'm realizing there's adeeper way, a more meaningful
(15:16):
way, that you can restorebuffalo back onto the landscape
and it'd be really cool to seethem back in the Everglades,
back in Florida, where they usedto be.
AJ (15:24):
I was gonna say, because their range was essentially
right across the continent.
I don't think many people knowthat.
Xavier (15:29):
Even it ranged from Florida to central Mexico to
central Alaska, all the way upto the Arctic Circle, and were
there parts of, say, the easternseaboard where they weren't?
Oh yeah, and they were migratory, so they were always moving,
yeah, and so there are partswhere they would occupy, but
they wouldn't stay very long.
And then you know there aremeadows that you can find along
(15:51):
the east coast that are justperfect for it and you can see
like feral horse species rightnow on the in, like California,
in the Carolinas, right on theright on the beach.
It's really cool to see thosetoo Really.
So there's like pockets ofsavannah, meadows, grassland,
rangeland that's perfect forbuffalo to exist right on the
coast too.
It's really cool, it'sinteresting and they're so
(16:13):
adaptable I mean really evenlike in the Carpathian forest in
Europe.
They have decentreintroductions where they have
buffalo species living withinthe woodlands themselves, and
they thrive within that kind ofecosystem too.
So interesting yeah they'resuper adaptable, super resilient
, and that's just one example ofthat.
(16:33):
Oh, that'd be fun.
I love buffalo box.
What's buffalo buffalo?
AJ (16:39):
box is my favorite.
Xavier (16:39):
It's our educational tool that I it's just.
It's the best.
You guys can get a hands-onexperience with the buffalo
parts.
We've got a lot of buffalogoodies stashed away in this guy
, our educational tool that.
It's just the best.
You guys can get a hands-onexperience with the buffalo
parts.
We've got a lot of buffalogoodies stashed away in this guy
.
This guy was made out in PineRidge oh, I forgot that
gentleman's name, but he makesso many different crafts with
these, like buffalo hidesthemselves.
He makes teepees.
(17:00):
He makes everything frombuffalo boxes to leather pieces,
everything in between.
Taylar (17:08):
I feel free to touch these.
They're made to be touched.
We bring them to schools and weplay little games with students
and everything to get them tothink about what these would be
used for, like this what is it?
AJ (17:21):
It's a rib.
Taylar (17:22):
Rib Digging probably.
Xavier (17:24):
Yeah, so our game is we ask you to first identify what
piece of the buffalo it is, andthen how you could use it.
What's the answer?
Did you hear that?
Yesha?
AJ (17:33):
Something big Hold that pose dude, I think that's.
Uh, that's not correct.
I only did that bit.
I know you did.
There was only one.
Xavier (17:46):
Oh my gosh, there's so many bits.
AJ (17:47):
All right, Ish, did you hear the task?
Xavier (17:49):
If you can just help me out here.
I would just ask if you firstidentify what part of the
buffalo it is and then tell mehow you would use it.
I would really appreciate it,and then we'll just go through
most of these real quickly.
This is a hollow one, that'sperfect.
How would you use that?
Oh, you could.
(18:11):
It's actually got a prettysolid tip at the end, so you'd
have to cut it pretty far down.
But one of the other thingsthat the tribes would mostly use
that for is a spoon.
If you'll allow me to just showyou right here where they cut
it, and then that's where theywould sand it down, and then you
would take that top as a handleand you can carve it into all
kinds of cool stuff.
Oh, cool.
Taylar (18:32):
And the difference between a horn and an antler.
Xavier (18:35):
There's a couple differences.
Do you know any one of them?
I'm guessing antlers are solidon the inside.
That's a good difference.
The other differences would bethat antlers fall off annually,
whereas horns grow every.
Yeah, that's right, they growfor their whole lifetime.
And they're made of twodifferent materials, which is
why there's one solid versus oneis hollow.
(18:56):
That's bone.
This is this is keratin.
That's a piece of hair.
That's your fingernails thesame materials.
Well, let me, let me get a goodlift too.
Oh no, that's buffalo for sure.
AJ (19:11):
Here she feel the difference in the white.
Yeah I'll trade you.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Xavier (19:16):
This is heavier.
Taylar (19:18):
Oh yeah, it is a little heavier.
AJ (19:18):
It's a lot taller, it's interesting how it keeps the
smell, I guess because it'samongst the hide.
Taylar (19:23):
We also have these from the pronghorn animal that are
around.
AJ (19:26):
Oh, the pronghorn are beautiful Aren't they, we like
them.
Xavier (19:30):
Fastest land mammal on the continent Is that right 60
miles per hour.
Are you kidding me?
And they used to be runningaround with American cheetahs.
Wow, there were once upon atime the Pleistocene.
There were Australian lions too.
Oh my god, what is it?
The thylacine cat or thylacinelion?
(19:50):
No, it's the tiger.
AJ (19:52):
Yeah, that's what it is, and the 12 foot kangaroos.
Xavier (19:57):
They're already scary enough.
Taylar (20:00):
Yeah, it was made out of that.
I don't know what part that wasmade out of, though.
Xavier (20:03):
So you would use a scapula for that bit.
If you hold it up into thelight, you can see exactly where
you can get it out of.
Or you can carve out this bitand it's more solid.
You can carve out this bit andit's more solid.
But this is perfect for shapingdown into that.
It has a little bit offlexibility, but not too much.
You can see it doesn't have toomuch give.
But other bones would have alittle bit more give.
(20:24):
So if you were to break down arib bone, you might have a
little bit more give.
So what would?
You might want something with alittle bit of flexibility, for
One of the things that you coulduse this item for a rib bone
would probably be an awl.
Do you guys sew at all?
So when you need to punch ahole into leather something this
thick two inch hide, with ahide that's two inch thick, you
(20:48):
need to punch a hole into itbefore you can stick a needle
through it.
So that's why you wantsomething with a little bit of
flexibility.
That way it doesn't just breakand snap on you, whereas if you
just use a tool made fromsomething like the densest bone
in the body, like the metatarsalor the metacarpal, which is the
lowest part of the forelimb, orthe hind limb, it needs to hold
(21:08):
up 2000 pounds of animals.
So it's gotta be really strong,strong.
So you would use that forsomething that you use
repeatedly or you're gonna weardown a lot over time, and that
would be for the flesh scraper.
AJ (21:20):
Alright, what's this bit?
Xavier (21:22):
Whoa, it's just a slightly bit bigger than your
shoulder blade.
Hey, I've got an idea.
It is amazing.
Once we get outside, I can showyou guys my buffalo hat.
Yeah, cool.
Taylar (21:33):
That's the scapula, which is the shoulder blade.
Xavier (21:35):
It's the same bone as this.
It's just the differencebetween a big bull versus a cow.
Taylar (21:39):
Those are the dewclaws in the back of the buffalo, like
right above the lips, andeverything.
On the hock and, if you like,jingle them.
That used to be used on regalia.
AJ (21:50):
Oh yeah.
I tell you, though, I was withthis elder in the north of
Western Australia and he took usaround and he said this tree,
this was our sandpaper.
And you pulled a leaf off andit was like sandpaper.
And then he's like this treewas the soap, and you rubbed it
and it started up.
And it was almost funny howeverything was already there,
(22:12):
and I'm getting it from thistable too.
It's like almost anything youcan want.
Xavier (22:16):
Jason, our founder, talks about how the buffalo was
the life's commissary for theShoshone and Plains people.
Just entirely.
Anything you can find atWalmart you can find in the
buffalo.
So that's why we like to justshowcase this buffalo box here
is to just showcase exactly thathow everything you can find in
the Buffalo has a use, and it'snot one use.
Everything can be brought downinto multiple things.
(22:38):
That's why we have the cheatsheet too.
AJ (22:40):
Oh, look at this sheet.
That's a.
That's actually a really goodproduction because it shows you
like it's full.
Xavier (22:47):
From the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail, we use
every part of the Buffalo that'sworth doing.
AJ (22:52):
It's interesting that Walmart metaphor reminds me of.
Remember Gloria at the festivalat chimney rock in Colorado,
and they were talking about theyucca plant.
They had a little demo thinggoing on there and she said,
yeah, it's the Walmart of theSouthwest, cause it was.
What was it?
It was food fiber and strong asall get out Yucca.
(23:14):
Yeah, that makes sense, thoughyeah a whole bunch of other uses
, same thing, a whole litany ofuses we would never have
imagined with differentpreparation, just from just
brilliant plant we can use ropefor just from the buffalo too.
Xavier (23:28):
albert, one of my uh friends over here at the program
, uh, also a graduate student atthe University of Wyoming, he's
been working on this spool fora long time.
He's probably worked on thisfor about two years now, really.
And that's from hide, yeah, no,this is just from the fluffs
that we find on the ground here.
And we've stuffed the bladderwith this, and this is really
(23:48):
just a showcase of how much hairthe buffalo have and what they
do when they actually getbrought back onto the landscape
itself with the hair.
The hair falls off annually,unlike cows, and they have
17,000 hairs per square inch asopposed to a cow, which only has
7,000 hairs per square inch.
And when that gets droppedaround on the landscape, it's
actually because it's the secondmost insulating fiber on the
(24:11):
continent.
It's actually really good forincubation for eggs and even for
nests for rodents, and so allof these critters are picking up
those hairs and they're usingit for their baby's nest.
Man.
AJ (24:24):
Okay, what's the most insulating material on the
continent?
Xavier (24:27):
Oh, I forgot what the first is.
I think it's muskox.
I think it's muskox is thefirst one.
Really, yeah, you can doublecheck right now.
That's right, we do, we.
Do you want to go check thoseout too?
We have three right here, butwe have many more in a way too.
Thanks, levi.
(24:49):
We got a big crew here.
We got about 12 people.
That's cool, yeah.
We got laborers, welders, wegot admin, office, finance,
communications, communityengagement.
That's very cool, yeah.
But back to our buffalo skullshere We've got three.
We're going to give these guysout to the community because
these were on request.
(25:10):
As WRTBI, as a nonprofitcharitable organization, we can
step in for those kinds ofcharitable needs, and so that
would be one of the things thatwe do as a program is to give
meat and buffalo products thatcan be given away for ceremonial
and cultural reasons back tothe community, and we can take
on those financial burdens as aprogram and we can just turn
(25:33):
that and incorporate that intoour operational budget and make
it into a part of our program ingeneral.
And so it's a really big partof our program when we give out
meat to our food commoditiesprogram for the Shoshone tribe
and then also to the WyomingFood Bank.
We've gotten partnerships withboth those programs to give meat
away to local communities, butthe skulls we usually just try
(25:56):
to take care of them as long aswe can until there's a need for
it.
So these two are going to begiven away and then this one
we're holding on to.
This one is meaningful justbecause he was the first one
that was killed on site.
AJ (26:08):
Is that right?
Xavier (26:08):
Yeah, he was the first one that was harvested here at
the program and so that doesintroduce the fact that do do
cultural harvests here on siteand we, you know, process those
animals we get, we take them outin the field and we we do that
as best we can culturally andtraditionally as well.
So there's a lot of differentaspects.
I go into?
AJ (26:28):
yeah, totally.
And were they adults too?
Xavier (26:31):
yeah, those were.
Those were about three or fouryear olds.
I think this guy was aboutseven or eight.
Man, look at the size of that.
Yeah, yeah, here I can holdthem up for you.
Whoa, you want to give it a?
Give it a hold 100.
AJ (26:43):
Oh yeah, that's heavy.
Xavier (26:45):
So, and if the horns aren't weighing much, it's all
skull it's the skull, and thenremember, there's about another
half of that with beard flesh,yeah, another all the tongue and
the brains and everything inbetween.
So it gets quite heavy.
It's beautiful, isn't it?
He's gorgeous.
We've got a couple of hideshere, but, honestly, this guy
that we have displayed out hereon the couch is our biggest hide
(27:06):
yet.
He's a 75 square foot hide.
He was the biggest one thatwe've probably ever harvested
here.
We did manage to keep the faceon it too.
Oh man, look at that.
AJ (27:18):
That's awesome.
Xavier (27:19):
Yeah, 75 square feet.
He was huge.
Most of them come out about 40or 30 square feet, but this guy
was massive.
He had about well over athousand pounds of meat.
Wow.
AJ (27:30):
So, as the finance guy, it's timely enough to ask how does
it broadly work in terms ofsupplying for community like
that, which is ideal, but how doyou make ends meet?
Xavier (27:42):
Well, most of our programming comes from private
foundations and as well as aportion of federal funding as
well as a portion of privatedonations as well funding as
well as a portion of privatedonations as well.
So we've got a mix ofpartnerships that have been
really helpful with conservationorganizations that also help
out a lot.
So, you know, National WildlifeFederation is one of our
(28:04):
biggest partnerships and they'vebeen one of our biggest
supporters from the beginning,and so that's one of the ways
that we allow, you know, we cando that and that's always been
the vision.
You know, when the vision is torestore thousands of animals
across thousands of acres andprotecting them under tribal law
as a wildlife species, you needto first build out those
(28:25):
programs, those partnershipswith all of these different
organizations, with tribal fishand game, with the local non
government organizations right,All of these different programs.
So that's kind of gets into
AJ (28:36):
gets a little bit into it without getting too deep into it
and is there a mind then, for Imean, that's all part and
parcel of a bigger vision,obviously, and you'd want that
to be forever.
I think about the federalgovernment situation at the
moment.
Other changeability how's thataffecting you?
Xavier (28:56):
it's affected us for sure, um, but I wouldn't say in
a negative way.
In a lot of ways it's justchanging the way that we're
looking at how we're operating,and so we're changing a lot of
the ways that we're partnering,structuring our partnerships,
and so now we're just, you know,as we scale up, we're finding
that there's a lot of moresecure funding out there that
(29:17):
we're not really we haven'ttapped into as indigenous people
.
There's not a lot of share ofprivate philanthropy that goes
into American Indian communitiesin general, and so that's one
of the avenues that we're tryingto really strengthen with
partners like First NationsDevelopment Institute, world
Wildlife Fund and even NatureConservancy.
(29:37):
These are organizations thatare strengthening that
partnership too.
AJ (29:40):
Is it?
I mean, you seem to be across alot of the history as well.
I'm wondering is that somethingthat's shifted, or shifting the
interest, the appreciation fromthose quarters of the tribes?
Xavier (29:56):
I would say so and, like I would say, the history has a
lot to do with it and I thinkthat there's a lot of pending
responsibilities, both onindividuals and to nations and
to organizations in a lot ofregards, and so some of them are
starting to step up to theplate and some of them are still
still still need to be talkedwith.
We need to create those avenuesand those partnerships and that
(30:19):
trust first, and so there's alot of ways that indigenous
people and those organizationscan can meet and and we're
trying to, we're trying toutilize that history as best we
can with and in respectful way.
I mean, there's so much traumain that regard that needs to be
reconciled with.
And the biggest piece is thebuffalo.
(30:40):
I mean, the buffalo themselveswere almost taken out.
There were only a couple dozenleft in Yellowstone with the
genetic reputability before theywere gone in their bottleneck
period towards the late 1800s.
If we had lost those animals,then there's no telling.
(31:03):
There's no telling what wouldhave happened, because the only
ones that were outside of thepark at that time were beefalo.
And those those are not.
You know, that doesn't havethose true genetics, those,
those, those, those desirabletraits that make the buffalo
both physiologically andbehaviorally adapted to this
environment.
Specifically.
That create that ecologicalriprocity.
And so there's a lot ofAmericans really value highly
(31:37):
value is it's not just anindigenous history, really, it's
something that all reallypeople can connect to.
I mean, as a buffalo, we wentfrom a couple dozen to now we're
at 500,000, right, I meanthey're still ecologically
extinct.
They don't exist on largelandscapes across large
populations.
But we're working, we'regetting there and you know we're
(31:59):
up to about 25,000 geneticallyreputable animals and about
20,000 tribal animals as well.
So I mean that's just thebreakdown of it in terms of
quantitatively, but I meanthere's still a ways to go too,
but I mean that's just a reallybig piece of it too.
AJ (32:15):
I think Did it all restart, if you like, out of Yellowstone.
Was it that 24 that were thekey to what's become?
Xavier (32:23):
Yeah, a large part of them, and then there were a
couple of other herds that werekept outside.
I heard there was anotherindividual tribal member that
was also able to hold on to somegenetically reputable animals
and helped restore that lineagetoo.
I'm not sure exactly on everyherd, but Yellowstone animals
(32:46):
themselves play a big part inthat reintroduction.
AJ (32:49):
It's amazing to think how a moment in time, hey, just that
story of survival and nowresurgence, yeah it is.
Xavier (32:58):
It is really cool to see and really cool to see happen
here in a travel context tooit's always yeah, even for us.
AJ (33:05):
You know, as outsiders we can, we can feel it, so we can
only imagine into the broaderfeeling for you guys.
It's interesting too to hearyou talk about the finances.
It's a very similar picture inaustralia and a very similar
approach that people are tryingto take, but it's fair to say
it's not really come throughsystematically yet.
(33:26):
You could say the trust isstill and the understanding that
you alluded to is still beingbuilt, which does then raise the
specter of how that's best done.
But yeah, very similar sort ofefforts and processes back home.
Xavier (33:42):
Yeah, it was really cool to see all the natural resource
crediting that's going on inAustralia and all of those
programs like with Wilmot Cattle.
That was really cool to see whenI got to visit there.
They were a really interestingcase study.
But to see that sort ofvaluation of a natural resource,
to the point of which you cando accrediting systems, is
(34:02):
really interesting and there'sall ways that we can tap into
that valuation of these naturalresources anyways, and we need
to utilize not just creditingsystems and not these, these new
systems, these greenwashsystems, but also these, um,
really uh, stable and and reallyfoundational systems like
(34:24):
conservation and sportsmen andand in that nature and you know,
hunting has always been a partof a part of this conservation
story, and so that that's whyJason is working to restore the
buffalo, honestly, because hegrew up hunting here and he
didn't quite grasp why here onthe Wind River Indian
(34:44):
Reservation, just 60 milesoutside of Yellowstone, he
wasn't able to hunt buffalo.
When his elders talked aboutthese huge hunts that spanned
miles and miles in the buffalothat would span as far as the
eye can see, I mean whathappened and and that's why we
do take the approach we do, Ithink it's interesting you talk
(35:04):
about those credit programs andstick the word greenwash in
there too.
AJ (35:08):
It also just makes me think logically, like if you're going
to, this is critique, right, I'mappreciative of what it can
offer to, and so I'll be curiouson more of your thoughts there.
But if you do value more of,let's just say, the living world
in that way, the critique is,or one of the critiques is at
what point does that become aprice that, for those who can
(35:32):
pay, it is worth paying?
Um, so this forest versus thatmuch money, I'm happy to take
the forest or whatever.
Xavier (35:39):
How do you balance that right?
How do?
You balance that consumptionversus the conservation.
Exactly.
Well, I agree, it's a really,really tricky balance that you
have to meet, but indigenouspeople have been meeting it for
centuries.
It can be done, it has and ithas been done, and what we're
trying to do is restore thatsystem that we had in place with
(35:59):
the buffalo, and one of theways that we can do that is with
well tribal programs, mostlyacross the United States.
American Indian nations haveheld on to that sovereign
position that they hold theability to hunt their own
animals on their own lands, andthat's exclusive, and so that's
one of the tools that we'reensuring is not going to lead to
that overconsumption of thebuffalo and it's going to making
(36:23):
sure that we instill thosecultural values along with that
economic value.
It's a really complex system,but I think that's one of the
ways we're trying to do it.
Taylar (36:34):
That's what you're studying too.
Xavier (36:35):
Yeah, my graduate program is in environmental
natural resources in society andmy thesis is going to be on
turning out an ecotourismfeasibility study for WRTBI to
scale up as we move forward.
And I think before we can getto the point where we're doing
lodging and visits and reallylarge scale tours, visits and
(37:03):
really large scale tours we needto first create a lot of those
principles that are going to beethically driven and we need to
incorporate that into thestrategy here at WRTBI.
So that's one of my researchfocuses and the other focus is
also as an economist.
I just love looking at demand,so I love willingness to pay
studies and contingent valuationstuff.
So yeah, I'm doing all thatcool stuff in my research and
(37:23):
thesis stuff that's brilliant.
AJ (37:27):
It's funny.
I was just talking about theeco-tourism thing too.
There's a big conference when Iget back home that I've been
asked to emcee regenerativeagriculture, transforming food
systems, in this bigger picturesense to be good for learning,
good for culture, cultures, anda lot of it is about investment,
like.
So what we're talking about howto, how to have the
(37:47):
partnerships and the and theinvestment flow into where it
needs to for the benefit of thewhole, and ecotourism was, I
felt like in the conversation,was one of the flanks that
hadn't been brought up much yet.
There's a local exemplar on astation.
We call them not ranches inOutback, as we call it Western
(38:07):
Australia.
Xavier (38:08):
You know this.
AJ (38:09):
Western Australia and they're still cleaning up awards
for doing it in a.
Really I'm talking aboutWoolene Station.
For listeners who know someonewill have already picked it.
In a way that was led by whatmatters, what's valued most, and
then the finances flowed from,I could say, honoring that, and
(38:35):
then it turns into education andunderstanding, without even
having to put that label on it.
You don't come here to beeducated as such, but you're,
you are learning by virtue ofconnecting, and there's
transaction, which includes butit's an entirely money and there
are different ways that theywould play that out and not to
burn themselves out too.
(38:55):
So you know there's a whole 15years now, or whatever, 18 years
in the running of.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
Now they're cruising.
They've even brought an oldheritage kitchen that was seven
miles away where a camp used tobe.
They brought it across to thehomestead and run a cafe out of
it.
I mean we're talking 400 milesout of perth, in the outback
(39:18):
gotcha, but you know the waythis used to be when it was
extractive.
They used to have tuxedodinners in the in the homestead,
because it was just.
I mean, they were landscultivated by indigenous people
over millennia that hadwaist-high grasses.
Now, through that area it'sthought about as red dirt
(39:38):
country, right like that's theaustralia.
Okay, it's not, oh it had hiphigh grasses so
imagine the europeans going inand going get the livestock.
On this we've hit paradise, butit it's a whole different soil
structure, so it destroyed it.
And even there, you know, 18years into their project,
they've got knee-high grassesback, and we're talking 400,000
(39:59):
acres, and stuff pops up all thetime with seeds that were still
in the ground, but they haven'tseen the hip-high ones come
back.
So nobody knows quite what thatwas, except that it's recorded
by the colonists as they camethrough on their horses.
Yeah, but back to theecotourism thing, though.
It does say I mean there will afew other examples too, it's
(40:20):
just the one we know and becomefriends with.
But it does say there are waysof doing it.
Oh yeah, that can be cool.
I guess you're seeing othercase studies too.
Xavier (40:29):
Oh yeah yeah.
There's so many differentexamples of indigenous people
being able to utilize ecotourismin a way that benefits both
culturally and ecologically.
And oh, in a way that benefitsboth culturally and ecologically
, and, oh my gosh, they're socool to see.
But there's more examples ofnon-Indigenous folk coming in
and using ecotourism as well ina way that's extractive and in a
(40:49):
way that leads to more negativethan anything.
AJ (40:53):
Really oh yeah.
Xavier (40:54):
There's both.
So you've got to be careful andthere's a way that you've got
to approach it that's reallystrategic and so like that's.
I think that's one of thereasons why my my study is so is
so.
Cool to me is just learningabout all the different ways
that ecotourism has taken shape.
I mean, as a Seminole, one ofour first enterprises was
(41:15):
ecotourism, when we incorporatedcultural traditions and
teachings into our businesspractices.
I mean, we're credited as oneof the finest alligator
wrestlers in the area and thatwas credited from being able to
handle alligators hunting, youknow, by ourselves.
When we needed to pull back abull gator, we didn't have a
whole hunting party, we justneeded to have ourselves in our
(41:38):
own little knot and we were ableto pull them back.
And that's exactly what we wereable to incorporate into some
of the first alligator wrestlingshows and that was one of the
biggest Miami touristattractions in the area all the
way up until we starteddiversifying and we got into
some more enterprises.
And I think that thoseteachings are important to hold
(41:59):
on to because those are going tobe what provide a lot of
understanding into your, intoyour practices, into your
businesses, into and and andeven into ways, into doing
things in a non-consumptive waydoes it need a change in
language, I'm curious or just achange in meaning to the to the
term ecotourism?
(42:22):
I think.
I think ecotourism doesn't havea set definition, and that
leads to a lot of contention,and I try to incorporate that
into my my focus too.
But I think I think it'sactually cool to see how it
could be both a practice, anoutcome or a management tool.
I actually think that it'sactually cool to see how it can
be both a practice, an outcomeor a management tool.
I actually think that it'sreally adaptable like the
(42:43):
buffalo in that way, and so Ithink it's really cool to see
how ecotourism can take shape.
We just need to be carefulabout how we do it.
AJ (42:51):
Good one Before we let go of this chapter.
It occurred to me before youwere talking about the buffalo's
appeal, or the way people dofeel it, across cultures, even
beyond First Nations, colonialcultures, settler cultures, and
I know, of course, that it's onthe state flag of Wyoming.
I'm curious even how that cameabout.
(43:11):
More amenable to doing thathere, or is there just as much
navigating the politicaltrickiness that you were talking
about?
Xavier (43:25):
before.
I think there's always going tobe navigating the bureaucracies
, especially around Buffalo.
There's just so much historythat needs to be addressed
before we can get to the pointwhere they are on the landscape
like a wildlife species.
But in Wyoming it's reallyinteresting to look at that flag
and and see, see, not reallynot see the buffalo.
(43:49):
I mean, you see them out inYellowstone but, and a couple of
private ranches here and there,but you don't see them, you
know, thriving in the thousands,in the millions or in the tens
of thousands, like they used to.
Yellowstone has a population of6,000 right now.
The Wyoming state we're tryingto partner with as closely as we
can because we don't want tosee the contention that we see
(44:12):
in other states with the buffalothat surround us.
Yeah, montana is a highlycontentious area when it comes
to Buffalo because of thehistory and because of the
contemporary aspects of thestate.
But Wyoming, I think, is more,is in a lot of ways more
(44:32):
amenable to to the Buffalocoming back.
I think, and we've talked withdifferent leadership within the
state and within servicesagencies Fish and Wildlife
Service to try to, you know,address any and all concerns
that come with buffaloreintroduction.
I mean there's going to be alot of them, and so we need to
(44:54):
figure out the best way toaddress each and every one of
them, and we do so in a waythat's transparent.
We do so in a way with the statewhere we're working with them
throughout the whole process,with the planning,
implementation and then alsolooking back on it and figuring
out where we can improve.
That's going to be importantand vital, and that's totally
what we're doing, so I thinkthat's why we're doing so.
I think the flag is aninteresting example, though
(45:17):
Jason talks about how that thatwhite buffalo reminds him just
of the ghost of the buffalo in alot of ways, and it's, it's a
white buffalo on on thelandscape on a blue background,
and it I don't know it doesn'tthe reason we have our, our logo
.
The way it is is is actually um, here.
Let me try to there it is ourlogo here is actually a an
(45:40):
example of what we try toincorporate.
You know, traditional imagery,and it's a mama buffalo, um, and
it's a live buffalo, and thatactually can is juxtaposed to a
lot of or, you know, is todifferentiate between all of the
most logos of buffalo programs,you'll see is as a skull, as a
(46:01):
skull of a buffalo, and sothat's why, you know, we don't I
mean, we looked at that flag,jason looked at that flag and
saw a ghost, and I'm sure hethought about that as well
whenever we talked about ourlogo too.
So you know, there's I mean,there's a lot of different
meaning behind buffalo imagesand it's important.
The buffalo treaty, if youhaven't heard about it, is
(46:24):
really cool because it's aagreement between a lot of
different indigenous folks outhere that are trying to create
um, what do they call it?
Buffalo awareness, um, and andbuffalo awareness is cool
because you can once they pointit out to you, you start to see
Buffalo everywhere.
I mean it's crazy.
You see Buffalo in almost everypart of American life, really.
(46:49):
You see it in our seals, yousee it in logos, you see it in
media, you see it everywhere,even in place names Buffalo, new
York, it's true, yeah, yeah.
So that's why we need it'simportant to just be aware
Buffalo aware is.
What I like to do is like callit.
AJ (47:08):
Yeah, no, we've totally noticed that.
Yeah, all across the country.
Yeah, it's, it's been a pointof curiosity.
I mean curiosity, to put itlightly, the paradoxes and
contradictions and complexitiesin it all.
Yeah, yeah, so it's interestingto hear you talk about it.
Oh, fascinating.
Did we leave coffee cold thatyou were looking forward to?
No, I think it's perfecttemperature.
There we go.
(47:29):
It's a great logo too.
Xavier (47:31):
I do love it yeah, I'll have to get you guys some hats
before you go.
Oh, cool.
AJ (47:34):
Thanks man, thanks man.
So this is HQ.
Xavier (47:41):
This is headquarters.
We call it grandma's house.
Grandma's house, what is?
AJ (47:45):
it Grandma's house.
What is that?
Xavier (47:46):
Well, it used to be a place of residence.
Yeah, it looks like it, andthat's actually the hotel door
that was originally put in allof this, in all of these rooms,
that was the size.
That's cool, I know it tellsyou something doesn't it?
Yeah, it was.
I believe it was built out 1900, late or early 1910s Something
(48:07):
like that, it was a stage stopBecause this was the trail from
here to Yellowstone.
It was a stage stop.
AJ (48:14):
Do we know much about the occupants?
Not the originals?
It'd be interesting, wouldn't?
Xavier (48:20):
it Well cool.
I'm excited to go look at somebuffalo.
Yeah, I hope they're stillright there.
Yeah, how long?
How much time do you guys have?
We're in no hurry.
AJ (48:30):
Is that a dangerous thing to say?
Xavier (48:31):
Yeah, a little bit.
Oh man, we got all kinds ofthings to show you guys.
Oh mate keep going.
AJ (48:37):
if you got the time, we got the time.
Oh wait, yeah, we have a Jasoncoming.
Hey, cool G'day Jason.
How's it going?
How are you.
Taylar (48:47):
Good to meet you, man Nice to meet you, yeah, how you
doing.
AJ (48:49):
That's my wife Olivia.
Taylar (48:50):
Hello, nice to meet you, and that's Yeshi.
AJ (48:53):
It's Jason Hi nice to meet you.
How are you guys doing?
Taylar (48:56):
We're doing good man, how are you Thanks for these?
AJ (49:01):
guys helping out.
Sorry I was late, guys, noworries, it's been terrific.
We've just let the tape rolland chew on the fat.
They miked me, jason.
Nice, fancy wireless one.
I didn't see those two offaround here.
They're actually from Australia.
They're an Australian company.
Oh, everything okay.
Yeah, it was all good.
There's a Sundance going on, sofamilies are getting ready to
(49:21):
gather up all the brush andeverything.
They're setting up camp for aweek down there.
Wow, cool.
I needed to use my truck andtrailer so I had to get it ready
for them.
It was kind of a last minutething, so Cool, yeah, Alright
you got everything, we'll jumpin this red one here, cool.
Taylar (49:50):
You can go in either one you want.
Xavier (49:52):
You want to come with us , yeah.
Taylar (49:54):
We'll get a door for you .
AJ (49:59):
That was part one of our two-part series from the Wind
River Tribal Buffalo Initiativewith Xavier Michael Young and
Taylor Dawn Stagner.
Some pics and links on thewebsite and, as always, more for
you enerous paid subscriberssoon, with great thanks for
making it all possible.
While we're on that, specialthanks this week to Alison
Lullfitz, sally Fields, alisonWorthington, luke Sweet, justin
(50:23):
Von Perger, kersti Wagstaff andJosh Mullens for being paid
subscribers for three years now.
I'm so grateful for you all.
We'd love you to join us if youcan get some exclusive stuff
and help keep the show going byheading to the website or the
show notes and following theprompts.
Stay tuned next week for parttwo with the initiative's
(50:43):
founder, jason Baldes, out inthe field with the buffalo.
The music you're hearing isRegeneration by Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.