June 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Dr. Jann Hayman is Secretary of Natural Resources for the Osage Nation. We’ve just come from a tour of their astounding greenhouse, after having had a powerful conversation with Chief Standing Bear. Jann’s graciously welcomed filmmaker Nicol Ragland and I for a chat at her office, amidst her busy end of the week. Both Chief and Nicol sing Jann’s praises loudly. Nicol calls her a powerhouse. And when she won the award from which I drew the title image for this episode, the presenter said ‘if you haven’t been to Pawhuska to see [their] facilities, you need to!’
This continues our special series from Osage Nation HQ, in Pawhuska Oklahoma. Today, we speak with Jann about how the Nation is going about its masterful resurgence, on the ground. Jann was Director of Environment and Natural Resources when the Tribe mobilised much of its recent food sovereignty and related achievements. In the wake of that, she was asked onto Chief’s Cabinet.
This conversation picks up from Chief’s, as we flesh out the realities of those achievements, including their remarkable land re-acquisition and food sovereignty measures, related buffalo restoration, broader wildlife too, language innovation, trust-based funding, reconnecting with the elders, and building a systemic movement. We hear, too, how all this is impacting people, and what big ideas are next. And again, this is a very frank, inspiring, and fun yarn. With a deeply moving story and piece of music, played by Jann, to close.
If you happen to have come to the Osage series here first, you can hear my chat with Chief Standing Bear last week, and the brief scene-setting episode with Nicol, the week prior (if you’re not familiar with the back story on this one, it’s worth ducking back to listen to that 13 minutes with Nicol first).
Recorded 4 April 2025. (Intro recorded at Greens Lake, Utah)
Title slide source.
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Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.
The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jann (00:02):
Hi Hi, I'll be with you in just a second.
I have to meet a deadline forour Treasury office in about 10
minutes, so give me just asecond.
Ok, no worries.
AJ (00:10):
We're meeting Dr Jann Hayman , Secretary of Natural Resources
for the Osage Nation.
Nicol (00:16):
How are things?
Good?
Busy, yeah, yeah, really Verybusy, well, always busy.
AJ (00:21):
We've just come from a tour of their astounding greenhouse
after having had a powerful andfun conversation with Chief
Standing Bear for last week'sepisode.
Jann (00:31):
Chief is always great.
He has time to talk and it'salways an experience, a good one
.
AJ (00:37):
Yeah, it was.
We were lucky in that sense.
We're talking rock and roll.
There's lots of stuff.
Jann (00:44):
You never know.
AJ (00:46):
Jan's graciously welcomed filmmaker, nicol Ragland, and I
for a chat at her office amidsther busy end of the week.
This continues our specialseries from Osage Nation HQ in
Pawhuska, oklahoma.
Today we speak with Jan abouthow the nation is going about
its masterful resurgence on theground.
(01:07):
Jann was Director ofEnvironment and Natural
Resources when the tribemobilised so much of its
extraordinary food sovereigntyand related achievements.
In the wake of that, she wasasked on the Chief's Cabinet.
This conversation picks up fromChiefs as we flesh out the
(01:28):
realities of those achievements,including those remarkable food
sovereignty measures, landreacquisition, related buffalo
restoration, broader wildlifeand landscape too, language
innovation, trust-based funding,reconnecting with the stories
of the elders and building asystemic movement.
We hear, too, how all this isimpacting people and what big
(01:48):
ideas are next.
And again, this is a very frank, inspiring and fun yarn with a
deeply moving story and piece ofmusic played by Jan to close.
G'day Anthony James here for TheRegenNarration, your
independent listener-supportedpodcast exploring how people are
regenerating the systems andstories we live by.
(02:09):
Enormous thanks this week toEdward Surgeon for increasing
your subscription amount again.
So grateful, mate, and richtravels across the Kimberley to
you.
If you can too, please considerjoining Ed and this brilliant
community of supportinglisteners.
Get additional stuff if youlike and help keep the show
going.
Just follow the links in theshow notes.
With all my thanks, if youhappen to have come to the Osage
(02:33):
series here first, you can hearmy conversation with Chief
Standing Bear in last week'sepisode and the brief scene
setting episode with Nicol theweek prior to that.
If you're not familiar with thebackstory on this one, it's
worth ducking back to listen tothat 13 minute introduction with
Nicol first.
Okay, let's gather around thetable back at Jann's office.
(02:54):
Have you got a favourite comfychair?
Jann (02:56):
No, it doesn't matter.
It does not matter at all.
Nicol (02:59):
Do you want to here?
Do you want to be closer to her?
All right.
AJ (03:02):
Reach the mic over.
Yeah, you can chime in too ifyou want.
Yeah, it is.
It's great to be with you.
Jann, do you want to speak toyour role a little bit?
Jann (03:12):
So my position is the Secretary of Natural Resources
on Chief Standing Bear's Cabinet.
So in that role I've kind ofshifted into that role I was
first just the director over theenvironmental and natural
resources programs and then whenCOVID came and the Osage Nation
received CARES federal fundsluckily Chief had enough
(03:38):
foresight to see these funds areavailable what can we do to
really make a positive impactfor the Osage people?
So then we started down thepath for developing our food
sovereignty programs.
And so right at that time therewas a little farm it was called
Bird Creek Farm and it was verysmall, so that had just shifted
(04:00):
under me.
And so then it was just anatural development as we
received these funds.
Then Harvestland was built,butcher House, our meat
processing facility was built.
So it's just kind of naturallyevolved into this very a bigger,
bigger picture.
You know kind of way to helpour people.
(04:21):
And so in that in my role Ioversee the food sovereignty
programs, help our people.
And so in that in my role Ioversee the food sovereignty
programs, I continue to see theenvironmental and natural
resources programs and then wealso oversee the Osage Nation's
bison herd and then a smallerherd of cattle as a pipeline to
our meat facility so we canprovide, have that, I guess,
(04:42):
have that control of pipelinepipeline so we're always able to
at any point process our ownanimals.
AJ (04:47):
So we don't get into a situation like what happened in
covid where you couldn't processanimals so we control that now,
so we can always provide forour people I'm so fascinated by
so many aspects of what you'reworking in a that it happened so
quick.
It seems like to be going rightthrough that supply chain, as
(05:08):
it were, through to processingtoo, which for many people is
like the Holy Grail.
If we could only likecommunities everywhere and
farmers everywhere who don't ownthe terms of trade and just
have to take what they get andlet alone what their animals end
up going through and so forth.
So the fact that it seems tohave happened quite quickly, how
have you managed that?
Jann (05:27):
It was very challenging.
So this facility at Harvestlandin Butcher House, from the time
we broke ground untilcompletion was under a year.
It's about nine months and soit was very challenging to get
to that point.
But at the time we were workingoff of a deadline for those
(05:48):
funds to be spent.
So we were just making ithappen.
It was just making sure that wehad the right team and, yeah,
it was tough.
Then they ended up extendingthe deadline.
So, of course, but we alreadyhad it done.
So that was a blessing and youknow we were kind of told it
(06:08):
couldn't be done, but we did it.
AJ (06:11):
You were told it couldn't be done.
This is interesting too, rightthere's so like what if you
believed that, but you didn't?
Jann (06:18):
Right, yeah, with so many things, especially now and we're
still, you know, no-transcriptto get people here, the people
(07:06):
that we need to make ourprocesses and programs
successful.
AJ (07:10):
How did you come to be in this role?
Jann (07:13):
So I've been with the tribe since 2006.
And I started as a naturalresources specialist, working
with like wildlife programs, andso worked up I was the director
.
And so I was the director whenall of this was built.
And so after this was all built, then when chief created his
(07:37):
cabinet, he asked me to be onhis cabinet.
So I suspect I made some goodchoices along the way in this
development.
That um, but I think a lot ofit is that me and, uh, you know,
executive just have the sameideas, the same same goals.
You know we want the samethings for the Osage people.
(07:58):
So I think that has naturallyjust aligned.
AJ (08:01):
What were you doing before 2006?
Jann (08:08):
has naturally just aligned .
What were you doing before 2006?
That's a good question.
So before that I had finishedcollege and my degrees are in
agriculture, and so when I firstgot out of college, I couldn't
find a job.
I wanted to be here in OsageCounty this is where I'm from so
I started work at DHS, theDepartment of.
Well, what is that?
I just always, always, yeah.
Nicol (08:33):
What is it?
Human Services yes, departmentof Human Services.
I was going.
Humane Society Wow, there's toomany acronyms that we're so
used to just DHS, yeah, yeah,that's funny.
Jann (08:43):
So I was working for dhs as their foster care specialist,
so I helped manage foster homesfor children in osage county,
and so just I needed a job anduh, so I did that for a couple
years and just knew that thatwasn't, that wasn't my path.
I needed to kind of get back tomy roots in agriculture.
(09:03):
So then, um, an opportunitycame open with the tribe, so I
applied.
AJ (09:07):
What do you know is what you're doing now?
In some way can you map it backonto ancestry further back in
your family?
Jann (09:16):
I think so.
Um, as as a kid, um, growing upin rural Oklahoma I, uh, rural
Osage County my family's alwayshad cattle, not huge ranches but
, you know, just a small familyranch.
And so I remember growing up myfamily always had Hereford
cattle.
So I remember growing up withthat and going out with my
(09:38):
grandpa and taking care of thecattle, and you know so I've
always, at least in mygeneration and my parents and
grandparents generations, alwaysjust that was a part of who we
were.
AJ (09:48):
so it's always.
It's something you've alwaysfelt in your bones was this sort
of, even as a kid you imagined.
Jann (09:56):
Oh yes, really yes, yeah, I always grew up just knowing
that I was going to be aveterinarian, so I'm kind of
close to that sort of.
I helped manage the bison.
AJ (10:07):
And a real love for the animals.
I'm inferring then yeah Well,let's shift there to the bison.
That's an interesting thing initself.
Since being in the States Imean almost a year now it's been
amazing to see how many storiesthere are of bison herds
increasing, and indeed sometribal nations I know the
(10:30):
Blackfeet released their firstwild herd.
I think it was late last yearor the year before, very
recently anyway, like the way itused to be, and others have
varieties of of management, butreally still repatriating, like
bringing them back to the landand for all the cultural
(10:51):
benefits that that bestows aswell.
Has it been similar motivationshere and is it linked to other
efforts as well, like how areyou managing that?
Jann (11:01):
are, um, and I know when, uh, the Osage Nation first
purchased the ranch west of town, what's now Osage Nation Ranch,
that was one of Chief's goalswas that bison was going to be,
you know, the focus for that insome capacity out there.
So over time the bison preservewas created.
(11:21):
It's high fence and yes, I meanthe goal for us, at least for
me and my team and I feel likealso with Chief is that it's a
conservation herd.
We manage it very much like theNature Conservancy north of
town.
So we work very closely withthe Nature Conservancy.
(11:59):
They've been there a while.
Yeah, other tribal nations inOklahoma that have bison Not as
much, I would say, on themanagement of the animals
themselves, but our butcherhouse processing facility
obviously can process bison andit's one of the few facilities
that can do that.
So we work real close with theother tribes that have bison so
(12:21):
we can accommodate thoseprocessing needs for them.
But our bison preserve itself,the fencing that is on it is
such that it could we in thefuture, if we decide to expand
into elk, we can put elk on theproperty too.
So that's been kind of one ofthe one of the long-term term
(12:42):
goals, kind of like, like thesefood sovereignty facilities, we
had CARES funds that paid forthe fencing.
So, while we had those funds,what could we ever use this for?
And let's put thatinfrastructure in now or a few
years ago, while we can.
(13:02):
And elk was also historicallyimportant to the Osage people.
So we don't have any out thereright now, but if and when we
ever get to the point where wecan, you know, go down that road
, then we're ready for that.
AJ (13:16):
Amazing, and when you say conservation herd, is that for
its land regeneration andcultural implications, has there
been a distinct sort ofvisceral sense of benefit having
them back on land?
Jann (13:29):
Yes.
So, yes, a lot of it's justkind of, you know, trying to
bring that land back to its, youknow, historical state and that
relationship with the bison onthe land.
But we do and we're seeing alot more kind of cultural
(13:50):
activities, you know, centeredaround the bison.
When we process the bison wekeep all of the heads and hides.
We have some drum makers thatare now, you know, realizing we
keep the hides, we try to getthe word out, but we make that
resource available to anybody itis.
You don't have to be Osage.
If there's any native drummakers that want to use bison
(14:11):
hides for their drums, we havethat available.
Then we get quite a fewinquiries on, like the horn caps
for jewelry, you know, andthings like that, just little
things from the head that peoplewould like to see.
And we've done, we've workedwith a group, the Osage LLC, the
(14:31):
business arm of the nation, andsome local cooks and folks to
do some bison feasts.
So I think there's been two ofthose so far.
So we've provided the animalPeople.
Osages have come in andharvested it like they did
historically, and so they'vecome out to our Pahuska village
(14:55):
and had a big feast.
They cooked it over an openfire.
You know how they would havedone it historically.
So while we weren't involved inall of that, we have the bison
available.
So we've tried to kind ofexpand what we're able to do and
work with.
If anybody's got any ideas, wewant to hear them.
We want to figure this out,because that's what the goal is
(15:16):
for the herd is to connect ourpeople.
AJ (15:19):
Yep, I wonder, with the broader mandate across the land
as a whole and its health andits restoration to health?
The chief told us about, forexample, the well plugging that
you're trying to do somehow overthe thousands of wells and with
little money to do it.
What else is sort of on thecards or in motion, and what
sort of success are you seeingin terms of care for the land
(15:42):
more broadly?
Jann (15:43):
I think that's always kind of an evolving discussion, at
least in terms of the land thatwe have management over.
We're we're trying, well, we'retrying to do a lot of things,
but we're trying to, for one,just build the relationship
(16:04):
between our office and whatwe're doing with other osage
landowners.
Um, it kind of I don't know,it's kind of a longer term kind
of goal is to like build agreater community of landowners,
osage landowners that arewilling to come to us for, you
know, just basic managementplans, management ideas, and try
(16:26):
to kind of take what we'redoing and pass that on to, like,
you know, make a bigger impacteven outside of the land the
Osage Nation owns.
Let's do all this together.
Let's bring in some, you know,osage landowners across Osage
County and start small, eventhough that's not real small.
But, start locally and try tokind of help I don't know kind
(16:50):
of shift, the I don't know shiftthe way people look at their
land to be more kind ofconservation minded and to
understand that the things thatyou do affect so many other
resources.
You know we see a lot of.
You know kind of blanket aerialspraying for trees, but you
(17:13):
know that has so many otherconsequences.
You know on wildlife and youknow other plant species, and so
we're wanting to take anapproach with, again, the land
that we oversee and you knowhave some test plots.
Is, you know, instead of doing,you know, addressing one issue
this way that you've kind ofgrown up hearing about let's
(17:35):
shift over and do it this way,that you've kind of grown up
hearing about let's shift overand do it this way, and so you
know, maybe kind of teach somesome better strategies for
accomplishing the same goals but, um, keeping those kind of
ecosystems more intact yeah,when we first saw the the planes
flying over with the sprays, wethought that was finished.
AJ (17:54):
That was was a bit like whoa , that plane's diving low.
Oh it's dropping, wow, that'sstill happening.
I don't know that it does inAustralia.
I don't think it does.
I mean, there's plenty ofspraying don't get me wrong by
other means.
But yeah, that's sort ofclassic old DDT image.
This is what I remember growingup.
It was like, wow, it's stillgoing.
(18:14):
Yeah, you're right, it's thatsledgehammer approach isn't it
too, and?
There could be other ways tokeep the rest of the living
systems which can serve you letalone keep yeah, the whole
system functioning well so Iguess that kind of all comes
down to.
Jann (18:28):
I feel like me in my position now is is a lot of um
and there's always, you know,things that I need to take care
of, like in the office and youknow, to help the processes and
programs move forward.
But I feel like a lot of whatmy purpose is here is how can I
change the bigger processes, howcan I help change you know, I
(18:51):
guess be a be a change agent forfor the good you know like at a
systemic level.
Nicol (18:57):
Yeah, yeah, do you find that there's that your change
agent influence is affectingother producers in the area,
like, do you feel like there's amomentum of the mentality of
regeneration and conservationcatching on, or do you feel like
it's?
Jann (19:13):
I feel like that's starting.
I think just changing those oldways of thinking is, I mean,
obviously not easy.
But you know I think we'regetting there slowly, worked
really closely with the OsageLLC on the Osage Nation Ranch.
(19:38):
We oversee a portion of thatand then the other portion is
under the business arm for, youknow, the for-profit cattle
production.
So I have a lot of discussionsover the years with them and,
you know, trying to kind ofbuild a better relationship with
them and kind of to me that's agood start is they're also on
(20:04):
the Osage Nation ranch.
So let's, let's start there,let's try to kind of change some
of that mentality.
And that's not always so easy,but but yeah, I think it's a
work in progress.
I wouldn't say there's a lot ofmomentum yet.
AJ (20:18):
What have you found in the early stages, then, of what
works?
For want of a better word, Ilike to think more in terms of
what reaches people to motivatedoing something different.
What is that?
Jann (20:33):
I think there's a couple kind of ways of thinking on that
.
I think there's a couple kindof ways of thinking on that.
With a lot of, I would say,kind of with kind of the
for-profit, like agriculturaloperations, the first thing
(20:55):
that's going to you're going tohave to show or talk about is
that this isn't going to be noteven a waste of money, but
you're there's what's theadvantage, what's the financial
advantage?
That's going to be like kind ofat the root of that, I feel
like kind of the smallerproducers or kind of the more
the family operations.
You know that they have adifferent, generally speaking it
kind of a different sense.
I feel like some of the smallerproducers have, I don't know,
(21:22):
maybe a little more flexibilityand interest in wanting that
more kind of connectivity to theland, and so you know, it's
just kind of, I feel like on adifferent, depending on the
scale of the operation kind ofchanges the conversation yeah.
AJ (21:37):
I see that too.
It does raise the.
I mean even think what you weresaying before about the scale
you're looking at.
Just let's start with what'saround us.
That scale issue is a big one,from what I hear over the years
I'm doing this even and backhome it's if you abstract
yourself and your operation fromthe land past a certain
(22:00):
threshold, perhaps you could sayyou lose those other points of
connection and motivation tocare for it and so forth.
So you know, it's not that younecessarily wish badly on it,
but the structure is such thatit's so removed.
It's just you're not reallyrelating in a real way, in a
(22:24):
direct way.
So there's something about thescale into getting sufficient
benefits from scale, but perhapsnot to the extent that we have
abstracted ourselves currentlyen masse.
And then, in terms of if we'retrying to change things
systemically or instigate thosesorts of changes, it's also
something key to keep in mindFor those who might think of a
(22:46):
green world domination or thelike, that there's something
about keeping or restoringconnection.
Jann (22:54):
So we personally, me and my husband and two kids, live
just south of pahuska and so wehave some acreage there, so we
have cows and uh, we've, overthe years, um, over the last 10
years or so, we've seen a bunchof turkey, wild turkey kind of
come in and so they weren'tthere and we were hunters.
(23:19):
But we don't hunt the turkeys.
They haven't been there.
And I've heard from differentproducers, you know, throughout
Osage County there's been, youknow, kind of a decline in
people seeing wild turkey.
So we like seeing the turkeyand so, you know, there again,
we don't hunt, we, we try to tryto kind of manage you know the,
the timber, like we manage ouryou know our little prairie
(23:43):
areas and stuff and try to dothem both.
And so this time of year, um,you can hear the turkeys
gobbling and so, like everymorning and every evening I'm
hearing the turkeys gobble andit's, you know, like I don't
know it's, it's a for me, like asense of like we're doing
something right because, we can.
We have our cattle, we can haveour wildlife.
You can have both.
You just have to know how tomanage those together.
(24:05):
And so I I feel like um kind ofin those moments I wish that
some producers, otheragricultural producers, had
those kind of like light bulbmoments.
So it's like look, you can haveall of this together.
AJ (24:20):
It often takes experiencing the high, but for you it came
after, you didn't need toexperience it first you sort of
created the conditions Forothers.
It seems they need toexperience it to have the belief
that it can be done orsomething perhaps or at least
see someone else experience it.
Maybe I mean these are theinteresting things I hear a lot
about is often creatingcircumstances where people can
(24:43):
come into contexts, where it'sworking in that way.
You can be like, oh, maybe I cansee that in a patch on my place
, yeah, but that's really, Imean, that's deeply moving that
you're experiencing in that way.
I wonder too, jan, about thebig news out of last year with
the 40,000 acres plus that usedto be Ted Turner's and that used
(25:04):
to be Osage but that's comeback into Osage hands as part of
a direct concerted effort tobring back some of the lands
that are Osage lands into Osagehands.
And I wonder we talked with thechief about what it means to
put it in the sort of truststructure that it is.
But I wonder, from your pointof view, what does it mean for
your role?
Has it meant like this massivescale up speaking of scale in
(25:29):
your sense of what's possible,or, oh my God, how am I going to
manage this?
Jann (25:35):
Yes, and I've seen, from the time it was purchased until
even now, I've seen that shiftof more of that coming under our
management for the purpose of,specifically, conservation and
that's very exciting.
I'm really glad to see thatshift and there again, you know,
(25:58):
just use that as an opportunityto show other people how other
producers different ways ofmanaging it and still coming out
with the same results.
But yeah, in terms ofpossibilities, I think we're
still kind of rolling around.
So many ideas of you know we'vetalked about, of course, you
know elk is a possibility in thefuture, but you know just
(26:21):
different time types of wildlifemanagement.
You know, focusing on the turkey, focusing on you know, all
these other things, but one ofour goals is to get a, is to go
through the process and get avery solid, just biological
assessment on the pieces that weoversee.
(26:43):
You know exactly what speciesare there across the board and
let's just make sure we see itand start kind of over time
managing that, you know, andbeing able to have the science
that backs our decisions and youknow as being able to have the
science that backs our decisionsin the, you know, as we see an
increase in biodiversity.
Now we have, we can see.
You know, the science isshowing that over time, and so,
(27:05):
yeah, we all get excited.
It's just the possibilities andwhat that looks like, you know,
from now to five or 10 years?
I'm not for sure.
Um yeah, we, we want to makesure, at the end of the day, all
of the decisions that we makeare science-based.
AJ (27:22):
That's important to us so there's the science that backs
all the steps that we take is itinformed, or to what extent is
it informed too, by stories ofelders or or other inputs like
that?
Is that a big part of what'shappening?
I mean there's Chief, obviously, but are there others?
Are there other reconnecting tothe old stories, if you will?
Jann (27:45):
There are some and I think there's a lot of opportunities
for more engagement with that.
I've heard Chief and some otherelders talk about the history of
the bison in our area andhistorically, and it's very
moving.
We were discussing internallyand with our cultural department
(28:09):
team on like a bison dinnerthis was a little while back and
so the discussion was that mygeneration anyway is going to
have to learn how to you know,engage and make meals using
bison because that thatknowledge has been lost.
(28:31):
So you know and that was, Idon't know, an interesting
moment to really think aboutthat Like bison were here
historically and we know that.
We know it's significant to theOsage people, but to think of
it's not that far back wherethat knowledge was lost, it's
(28:52):
just a few generations andthat's one good thing about our
butcher house facilities we canprocess, you know, our own
animals and in a way that makessense for our people.
But to try to bring that backis, I don't know there's not
really any words for that beingable to do that, but just
(29:13):
knowing that how it doesn't takethat long for history or for
our knowledge to be lost if wedon't actively work to keep it.
AJ (29:22):
Yeah, it seems to be a moment in time, too, where the
connection's still well,literally, in some cases alive
and you can tap into it inrestoring it.
In restoring it, what are theparticular sorts of ways that
shape how a butcher house willoperate here, compared to some
others particular things thatyou've done with that?
Jann (29:46):
Yeah, so we, our team down at butcher house, works very
closely with our cooks for our,for our villages, and so I I
don't know all the specifics-but, I know that there's a
specific way that they wanttheir meat cut in very specific
(30:06):
ways.
I'm not for sure but they'reable to do that.
They keep back specific piecesthat would normally be like suet
.
They keep suet for, you know,different dishes and things like
that that they probablywouldn't normally keep otherwise
, but for our people it'simportant, so we're able to do
(30:27):
that.
So yeah they, they try to come,try to accommodate anything
that we need as a, as a nation,as a people, that we know that
other facilities wouldn't do.
AJ (30:40):
or they try, but they just don't understand yeah no, so
we're able to to meet thoseneeds yeah, I've become aware of
things like the uh intertribalagriculture council and bodies
like that.
Is that a big port of call foryou guys too to be feeding into
and learning from and exchanging?
Jann (31:01):
We work a lot with the Intertribal Ag Council.
They have an annual conferenceand we usually send people every
year to that and I think it's aunique situation because I
think you're kind of there again.
It kind of goes back to ChiefStanding Bear having just the
vision of an opportunity thatthe you know federal funds had
(31:23):
brought with the CARES funds.
But we're in a different,almost a different category, I
think, than I wouldn't say allbut some tribal nations also,
because we put so much moneyinto our infrastructure that a
(31:43):
lot of other other tribalnations didn't do, or they did
in just a little bit differentcapacity.
So as far as, like what we havedeveloped, we're leaps and
bounds ahead of a lot of othertribal nations, at least in
Oklahoma I don't know what I'mmore familiar with.
AJ (32:03):
And for those who don't know certainly Australians won't
know that's quite a lot oftribal nations in Oklahoma.
I believe there's quite aconcentration here for the
historical reasons ofcolonization and so forth.
Jann (32:14):
Yeah, so, and I'm so thankful that we have this,
because now, trying to findfederal funds to do what we did,
I don't think it would befeasible, it just wouldn't be
able to happen yeah, it's amoment in time.
AJ (32:29):
Hey, was that biden administration during covid that
where those monies werereleased, or was it even prior
to that?
Jann (32:37):
I think it was, wasn't it Biden?
AJ (32:39):
I heard from other tribal nations across the country that
they were getting monies too,and in fact they couldn't
understand why there wasn't morecredit being given.
They were hearing from peoplewho were going to vote Trump
around them and they're likehaven't you seen the support
we're getting for the first timein many cases, Did you feel
similarly?
Jann (33:02):
And I've heard chief talk a lot about that that there
weren't any.
It was really just given to thetribes to do with it how we
needed to do so there wasn't.
I mean, we still coming from theenvironmental department, we
still did our own you know,evaluations and reviews and and
just we just want to make sureto have that done, but we didn't
have the red tape that normallycomes with federal funds and so
(33:24):
we literally could just do withit as we needed and it was.
You know, Chief talks aboutthat quite a lot about if, given
the opportunity, look whattribes can do.
AJ (33:34):
Well, that's the thing and expresses the trust in that.
That too, which then can feedon itself, and you see the
success, and it's ironic in asense that the well the
metaphorical chainsaws beingtaken to funds in the name of
you know, I guess from from thatlens would be.
That's the problem.
(33:55):
We just were given money awaybut if you can see the trust
fabric that was being built andthen the real results on the
ground, when the tribes werelike your good selves, setting
up generational infrastructureyeah, and to me that's almost
the punchline it's like, ifyou're gonna cut on mass as
(34:16):
authorities, then sure, but havea look first.
Yeah, that's probably the mostconcerning thing, again from an
outside perspective, trying tomake sense of what's happening.
It's the somewhat wellabstracted I'll use that word
again just disconnected way thatit's happening.
Yeah, we just visited thegreenhouse too, another piece of
(34:41):
infrastructure that you've setup, bringing forth that other
aspect of food sovereignty,incredible structure and
incredible staff too, from whatI gather, we had some chats over
there and lovely sort of legacypiece with the pineapple coming
out of the film killers of theflower yes, I've heard that
we're the uh, and maybe it wasmentioned in the greenhouse that
(35:02):
we're the biggest producer ofpineapples in oklahoma somehow,
I have no doubt I was seeing theroad proliferate.
But yeah, so all it's thismulti-faceted thing you're
managing to create it's reallyquite inspiring what are you
seeing next, I wonder.
That's a great question.
Jann (35:24):
I think I mean kind of I mentioned earlier we're still
building capacity, so once Ithink that's just going to, at
least in terms of foodsovereignty, just continue to
grow um indefinitely.
AJ (35:37):
I atwithstanding changes at that federal level.
Jann (35:40):
Right right, yeah, with what we are able to do here.
I mean I can see the greenhousebeing, you know, maximum
production, aquaponics beingmaximum production and is
continuing to fill these spaces.
We've got the start of you knowan orchard going.
You know expanding that, youknow just expanding kind of
(36:01):
across the board.
At Butcher House one of thethings that we're working on is
field harvesting for our bison.
So you know, now we don't havethat process in place, we have
to physically take the bisonthere.
But one of the long-term goalsis to get, you know, a mobile,
you know, meat processing truckfor, like a trailer, little
mobile unit.
(36:22):
So we can go out and harvestthem in the field.
So of course that's safer forour employees, you know, safer
for the bison, you know it'sjust a better process anyway.
So you know there's at leastwith just logistics of the
facilities.
It's just always aboutexpanding and doing what we can.
AJ (36:41):
Has there been a particular moment where you've seen in
someone else a feeling of?
I don't know a feeling of areturn to strength.
Dignity, I mean all of thesethings.
Dignity, I mean all of thesethings.
(37:01):
I'm wondering if you've seenthe the outcome of all this in
any moments like that, in peoplewhere you've thought to
yourself wow, look, what thiscan do there's a few moments
like that one in particular,because also the goal of our
facilities, of our foodsovereignty facilities, is to
keep the cost down.
Jann (37:17):
So we want people to always be able to access what
we're doing without spending afortune, especially on the meat
side.
So we had a sale of burger atButcher House one day it was one
Saturday and we we had very lowcost and there was so many
(37:40):
people we had, which was great,it was a great turnout.
But there was one particularperson that somebody had told me
it was a person in our office,actually had gone down and was
waiting in line and there was alady next to him in line and she
said that she had never beenable to buy meat, that they had
(38:01):
always lived off of what theywere able to get you know deer
and things like that, you knowwild game because they couldn't
afford to go to the store andbuy meat.
So she was so excited becausethat was the first time that she
was able to actually purchasemeat, because it was affordable
yeah and that I had calledexecutive and you know, just
made sure to tell everybody.
(38:22):
I said that's why we're doingthis because, even though we can
buy meat, there are people thatcan't, and so we need to always
remember that those are thepeople that we're trying to help
.
AJ (38:34):
Wow, there's so much in that that everyone I think to be
thinking about when.
I see the I almost don't evenwant to say them, but you know
the $5 so-called meal deals thatyou'll see advertised on fast
food joints and often that's themeat they get people in those
situations compared to this andeverything it entails.
(38:55):
But to do it in that way, tomake it accessible, in that way,
it's almost again the ultimateachievement.
Wonderful Jan, you got anythingelse on your mind?
Nicol (39:07):
Something that Don said to you about getting access to
elders right.
A lot of the mobile truckyou're getting predominantly to
that contingent.
Do you feel like there's moreinterest in knowing the
importance of access to cleanfood and local food and food
(39:29):
sovereignty?
Because it just blows my mind,no matter where, even all small
farmers that are producingamazing clean food as medicine,
they oftentimes can't give itaway, which is incredibly
frustrating, and so so much ofthat is education on the
importance of clean food.
Do you have?
Don spoke to this a little bit,but in terms of how we reach
(39:53):
and that's always my interesttoo in the world of media and
marketing and storytelling ofgetting people to care more,
where are you with that?
Jann (40:01):
is that is that, I think, department that yeah and I think
, um, and we've got, um, youknow, our communications team
that is really um taking active,taking an active role in trying
to help us.
You know, get, get, get theword out.
I think that's kind of one ofthe continual challenges that we
(40:22):
have is people it just blows mymind, but they just don't know
we're here, even though we havethis facility.
People just, I don't know,assume it's not open to the
public, or assume it's only forOsages and it's not for anybody.
Open to the public, or assumeit's only for osages and it's
not for anybody, or there's alot of assumptions.
(40:42):
I feel like that's, um,sometimes challenging to
overcome.
So we're always yeah, the mobilemarket's great because we're
getting our name out there andgetting making those connections
to let people know like youdon't have to come just to the
market, no matter where it's at.
You can come here any day, fivedays a week.
Please come, we want that, wewant people to come here.
(41:04):
And so I think Butcher House isdoing a lot.
I don't know exactly why, but Ithink they're doing a lot
better.
People are using them a lotmore and of course, you know
that's a lot of uh, just private, um, private.
You know ranchers using themfor processing their own, you
(41:27):
know animals and things likethat.
But, um, but harvest landalways seems to be a little bit
of a challenge and it comes backto, in my opinion, the
education piece we have to beable to.
And it comes back to, in myopinion, the education piece we
have to be able to not give up,just keep pushing forward and
keep making connections and keepfinding ways to connect people
(41:49):
to this facility.
AJ (41:50):
You've got a retail thing here that operates through the
week.
Jann (41:54):
Yeah, really Wow.
It's not very big but we'regetting there.
But the idea originally wasthat we have this greenhouse.
You can go out and pick ityourself.
Nicol (42:04):
Yeah.
Jann (42:04):
So we have, you know, things available in our
refrigerator and in some shelvesand have a little retail place.
But the goal was kind of a youpick it thing.
You know, just come in any time, come fill your your basket,
and then you just weigh it andpay on your way out.
AJ (42:21):
They're so popular in other places.
I mean, not all work, I guess,but some we've seen, even
without the um, the culturalethical regeneration backdrop.
They're just sort of they'vejust got the local thing going
even Even just that they gocrazy so yeah, it excites people
when they do know, it seems weget excited here.
Jann (42:46):
Our employees get excited there we go.
AJ (42:48):
I'm excited.
I always talk music to leaveoff.
Actually Get back to somethingpersonal.
I had a nice chat with thechief about music on the way out
what about you?
Is there music that's been orthat perhaps is right now really
sort of pivotal to yourexperience of being alive?
Jann (43:07):
so funny.
You should mention that I umI'm also a pianist hey so I've
played since I was five.
Wow, and so I, and so music issuper important to me.
I love when I'm home.
That's my life outside of thekids and turkeys that's right
Piano.
(43:32):
And my daughter is nine.
And so when I was little takinglessons, my teacher at the time
also played the harp and so Iwas introduced to the harp.
So and then, you know, went onand never played again, so had a
little I don't know moment lastsummer.
(43:54):
So me and my daughter aretaking harp lessons.
I went and bought a harp, wehave a harp, we drive to Tulsa
twice.
A daughter are taking harplessons.
I went and bought a harp, wehave a harp, we drive to tulsa
twice a month and take harplessons.
So, uh, piano wasn't her thing.
So we're going down, I'mlearning the harp, but wow yeah,
that's cool, so even funnierstory.
Uh, well, maybe it's not funny.
My uh grandma ended up teachingme and so, um, she has a uh, I
(44:20):
was talking with her recently.
She has this uh baby gransteinway piano and I she's
always had it in her house andit's from the 1920s and so, um,
beautiful piano and uh.
so I was talking to her just acouple months ago and I asked
her um, I never asked before,what's the history on the piano?
(44:41):
We've had it in our familyforever, since the 20s.
She said my family's overseas.
She said her family bought thatin the 20s, you know, during
the whole.
You know, boom, they wereshareholders and they had some
money and so they bought thepiano and it was like just that
little piece of history.
I had no idea and I never eventhought to ask.
AJ (45:04):
Yeah, so it was just the piano in the house, wow.
Jann (45:08):
That's amazing.
AJ (45:09):
That is so interesting.
It's funny because Chief hadhis own story where we went and
looked at some old photos of hisgrandparents in that era seated
on the ground eating together,because he drew attention to
just how we come to take what wedo as normal and he said look
at this table.
We take it as normal.
(45:30):
We'd have to use a knife andfork and eat off this table
right now but.
I've got photos out in the hallof my ancestors eating out their
hands on the ground togetherand we went and had a look at
that, but same era and dressed,doing that, dressed to the nines
.
Yes, it's fascinating and sucha unique heritage and there's
that piano standing as amonument to it as well.
(45:53):
I don't suppose you've got apiano around here somewhere.
No, wouldn't that be good.
Have you recorded things overthe around here somewhere?
Wouldn't that be good?
Have you recorded things overthe journey?
No, not even I can catchsomething in.
Jann (46:05):
Who knows, I might bring one up here.
My co-workers might be like, oh, take that home.
AJ (46:10):
You start with a keyboard.
There should be a keyboard inhere.
I'm going to try when we're off.
I'm trying to convince you torecord something on your phone
and send it to me so I can putit in.
See how I go.
Thanks a lot, it's been greatspeaking with you.
Yes, and power to you.
Thank you, that's great.
Nicol (46:56):
Sh e's a powerhouse.
AJ (47:14):
That was Dr Jann Hayman, secretary of Natural Resources
for the Osage Nation.
Some pics and links on thewebsite and more for paid
subscribers soon, with greatthanks for making all this
possible.
Join us, get additional stuffand help keep the show going by
heading to the website or theshow notes and following the
prompts.
Thank you.
Jann did graciously record somepiano for us.
(47:37):
You're listening to it now.
I'm so very grateful to be ableto play it to you here.
Apparently the family was too.
Jan wrote saying thank you forthe opportunity to play.
It meant a lot to us and shesaid the song I played is nearer
my God to thee with Schubert'simpromptu in G flat major.
It's still stopping me in mytracks.
(48:08):
That concludes our series fromthe Osage Nation, though I'll
have a little bonus episode outshortly from that brief and
entertaining tour Dawn gave usin the greenhouse.
That'll play for you while wespend the week out at the Old
Salt Festival in Montana.
I'll report on that soon too.
If you missed the episode withCole from out there at the Old
(48:29):
Salt Co-op last year, you mightenjoy episode 217.
And again, if you happen tohave come to the Osage series
here first, you can hear myconversation with Chief Standing
Bear last week and the briefscene-setting introductory
episode with filmmaker NicolRagland the week prior to that.
For now, back to Jann and hergrandmother's Steinway .
(48:49):
Steinway.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
Jann (50:12):
Thank you.
Piano plays.
softly.
Thank you, thank you.
Hi Hi, I'll be with you in just a second.
I have to meet a deadline forour Treasury office in about 10
minutes, so give me just asecond.
Ok, no worries.
AJ (00:10):
We're meeting Dr Jann Hayman , Secretary of Natural Resources
for the Osage Nation.
Nicol (00:16):
How are things?
Good?
Busy, yeah, yeah, really Verybusy, well, always busy.
AJ (00:21):
We've just come from a tour of their astounding greenhouse
after having had a powerful andfun conversation with Chief
Standing Bear for last week'sepisode.
Jann (00:31):
Chief is always great.
He has time to talk and it'salways an experience, a good one
.
AJ (00:37):
Yeah, it was.
We were lucky in that sense.
We're talking rock and roll.
There's lots of stuff.
Jann (00:44):
You never know.
AJ (00:46):
Jan's graciously welcomed filmmaker, nicol Ragland, and I
for a chat at her office amidsther busy end of the week.
This continues our specialseries from Osage Nation HQ in
Pawhuska, oklahoma.
Today we speak with Jan abouthow the nation is going about
its masterful resurgence on theground.
(01:07):
Jann was Director ofEnvironment and Natural
Resources when the tribemobilised so much of its
extraordinary food sovereigntyand related achievements.
In the wake of that, she wasasked on the Chief's Cabinet.
This conversation picks up fromChiefs as we flesh out the
(01:28):
realities of those achievements,including those remarkable food
sovereignty measures, landreacquisition, related buffalo
restoration, broader wildlifeand landscape too, language
innovation, trust-based funding,reconnecting with the stories
of the elders and building asystemic movement.
We hear, too, how all this isimpacting people and what big
(01:48):
ideas are next.
And again, this is a very frank, inspiring and fun yarn with a
deeply moving story and piece ofmusic played by Jan to close.
G'day Anthony James here for TheRegenNarration, your
independent listener-supportedpodcast exploring how people are
regenerating the systems andstories we live by.
(02:09):
Enormous thanks this week toEdward Surgeon for increasing
your subscription amount again.
So grateful, mate, and richtravels across the Kimberley to
you.
If you can too, please considerjoining Ed and this brilliant
community of supportinglisteners.
Get additional stuff if youlike and help keep the show
going.
Just follow the links in theshow notes.
With all my thanks, if youhappen to have come to the Osage
(02:33):
series here first, you can hearmy conversation with Chief
Standing Bear in last week'sepisode and the brief scene
setting episode with Nicol theweek prior to that.
If you're not familiar with thebackstory on this one, it's
worth ducking back to listen tothat 13 minute introduction with
Nicol first.
Okay, let's gather around thetable back at Jann's office.
(02:54):
Have you got a favourite comfychair?
Jann (02:56):
No, it doesn't matter.
It does not matter at all.
Nicol (02:59):
Do you want to here?
Do you want to be closer to her?
All right.
AJ (03:02):
Reach the mic over.
Yeah, you can chime in too ifyou want.
Yeah, it is.
It's great to be with you.
Jann, do you want to speak toyour role a little bit?
Jann (03:12):
So my position is the Secretary of Natural Resources
on Chief Standing Bear's Cabinet.
So in that role I've kind ofshifted into that role I was
first just the director over theenvironmental and natural
resources programs and then whenCOVID came and the Osage Nation
received CARES federal fundsluckily Chief had enough
(03:38):
foresight to see these funds areavailable what can we do to
really make a positive impactfor the Osage people?
So then we started down thepath for developing our food
sovereignty programs.
And so right at that time therewas a little farm it was called
Bird Creek Farm and it was verysmall, so that had just shifted
(04:00):
under me.
And so then it was just anatural development as we
received these funds.
Then Harvestland was built,butcher House, our meat
processing facility was built.
So it's just kind of naturallyevolved into this very a bigger,
bigger picture.
You know kind of way to helpour people.
(04:21):
And so in that in my role Ioversee the food sovereignty
programs, help our people.
And so in that in my role Ioversee the food sovereignty
programs, I continue to see theenvironmental and natural
resources programs and then wealso oversee the Osage Nation's
bison herd and then a smallerherd of cattle as a pipeline to
our meat facility so we canprovide, have that, I guess,
(04:42):
have that control of pipelinepipeline so we're always able to
at any point process our ownanimals.
AJ (04:47):
So we don't get into a situation like what happened in
covid where you couldn't processanimals so we control that now,
so we can always provide forour people I'm so fascinated by
so many aspects of what you'reworking in a that it happened so
quick.
It seems like to be going rightthrough that supply chain, as
(05:08):
it were, through to processingtoo, which for many people is
like the Holy Grail.
If we could only likecommunities everywhere and
farmers everywhere who don't ownthe terms of trade and just
have to take what they get andlet alone what their animals end
up going through and so forth.
So the fact that it seems tohave happened quite quickly, how
have you managed that?
Jann (05:27):
It was very challenging.
So this facility at Harvestlandin Butcher House, from the time
we broke ground untilcompletion was under a year.
It's about nine months and soit was very challenging to get
to that point.
But at the time we were workingoff of a deadline for those
(05:48):
funds to be spent.
So we were just making ithappen.
It was just making sure that wehad the right team and, yeah,
it was tough.
Then they ended up extendingthe deadline.
So, of course, but we alreadyhad it done.
So that was a blessing and youknow we were kind of told it
(06:08):
couldn't be done, but we did it.
AJ (06:11):
You were told it couldn't be done.
This is interesting too, rightthere's so like what if you
believed that, but you didn't?
Jann (06:18):
Right, yeah, with so many things, especially now and we're
still, you know, no-transcriptto get people here, the people
(07:06):
that we need to make ourprocesses and programs
successful.
AJ (07:10):
How did you come to be in this role?
Jann (07:13):
So I've been with the tribe since 2006.
And I started as a naturalresources specialist, working
with like wildlife programs, andso worked up I was the director
.
And so I was the director whenall of this was built.
And so after this was all built, then when chief created his
(07:37):
cabinet, he asked me to be onhis cabinet.
So I suspect I made some goodchoices along the way in this
development.
That um, but I think a lot ofit is that me and, uh, you know,
executive just have the sameideas, the same same goals.
You know we want the samethings for the Osage people.
(07:58):
So I think that has naturallyjust aligned.
AJ (08:01):
What were you doing before 2006?
Jann (08:08):
has naturally just aligned .
What were you doing before 2006?
That's a good question.
So before that I had finishedcollege and my degrees are in
agriculture, and so when I firstgot out of college, I couldn't
find a job.
I wanted to be here in OsageCounty this is where I'm from so
I started work at DHS, theDepartment of.
Well, what is that?
I just always, always, yeah.
Nicol (08:33):
What is it?
Human Services yes, departmentof Human Services.
I was going.
Humane Society Wow, there's toomany acronyms that we're so
used to just DHS, yeah, yeah,that's funny.
Jann (08:43):
So I was working for dhs as their foster care specialist,
so I helped manage foster homesfor children in osage county,
and so just I needed a job anduh, so I did that for a couple
years and just knew that thatwasn't, that wasn't my path.
I needed to kind of get back tomy roots in agriculture.
(09:03):
So then, um, an opportunitycame open with the tribe, so I
applied.
AJ (09:07):
What do you know is what you're doing now?
In some way can you map it backonto ancestry further back in
your family?
Jann (09:16):
I think so.
Um, as as a kid, um, growing upin rural Oklahoma I, uh, rural
Osage County my family's alwayshad cattle, not huge ranches but
, you know, just a small familyranch.
And so I remember growing up myfamily always had Hereford
cattle.
So I remember growing up withthat and going out with my
(09:38):
grandpa and taking care of thecattle, and you know so I've
always, at least in mygeneration and my parents and
grandparents generations, alwaysjust that was a part of who we
were.
AJ (09:48):
so it's always.
It's something you've alwaysfelt in your bones was this sort
of, even as a kid you imagined.
Jann (09:56):
Oh yes, really yes, yeah, I always grew up just knowing
that I was going to be aveterinarian, so I'm kind of
close to that sort of.
I helped manage the bison.
AJ (10:07):
And a real love for the animals.
I'm inferring then yeah Well,let's shift there to the bison.
That's an interesting thing initself.
Since being in the States Imean almost a year now it's been
amazing to see how many storiesthere are of bison herds
increasing, and indeed sometribal nations I know the
(10:30):
Blackfeet released their firstwild herd.
I think it was late last yearor the year before, very
recently anyway, like the way itused to be, and others have
varieties of of management, butreally still repatriating, like
bringing them back to the landand for all the cultural
(10:51):
benefits that that bestows aswell.
Has it been similar motivationshere and is it linked to other
efforts as well, like how areyou managing that?
Jann (11:01):
are, um, and I know when, uh, the Osage Nation first
purchased the ranch west of town, what's now Osage Nation Ranch,
that was one of Chief's goalswas that bison was going to be,
you know, the focus for that insome capacity out there.
So over time the bison preservewas created.
(11:21):
It's high fence and yes, I meanthe goal for us, at least for
me and my team and I feel likealso with Chief is that it's a
conservation herd.
We manage it very much like theNature Conservancy north of
town.
So we work very closely withthe Nature Conservancy.
(11:59):
They've been there a while.
Yeah, other tribal nations inOklahoma that have bison Not as
much, I would say, on themanagement of the animals
themselves, but our butcherhouse processing facility
obviously can process bison andit's one of the few facilities
that can do that.
So we work real close with theother tribes that have bison so
(12:21):
we can accommodate thoseprocessing needs for them.
But our bison preserve itself,the fencing that is on it is
such that it could we in thefuture, if we decide to expand
into elk, we can put elk on theproperty too.
So that's been kind of one ofthe one of the long-term term
(12:42):
goals, kind of like, like thesefood sovereignty facilities, we
had CARES funds that paid forthe fencing.
So, while we had those funds,what could we ever use this for?
And let's put thatinfrastructure in now or a few
years ago, while we can.
(13:02):
And elk was also historicallyimportant to the Osage people.
So we don't have any out thereright now, but if and when we
ever get to the point where wecan, you know, go down that road
, then we're ready for that.
AJ (13:16):
Amazing, and when you say conservation herd, is that for
its land regeneration andcultural implications, has there
been a distinct sort ofvisceral sense of benefit having
them back on land?
Jann (13:29):
Yes.
So, yes, a lot of it's justkind of, you know, trying to
bring that land back to its, youknow, historical state and that
relationship with the bison onthe land.
But we do and we're seeing alot more kind of cultural
(13:50):
activities, you know, centeredaround the bison.
When we process the bison wekeep all of the heads and hides.
We have some drum makers thatare now, you know, realizing we
keep the hides, we try to getthe word out, but we make that
resource available to anybody itis.
You don't have to be Osage.
If there's any native drummakers that want to use bison
(14:11):
hides for their drums, we havethat available.
Then we get quite a fewinquiries on, like the horn caps
for jewelry, you know, andthings like that, just little
things from the head that peoplewould like to see.
And we've done, we've workedwith a group, the Osage LLC, the
(14:31):
business arm of the nation, andsome local cooks and folks to
do some bison feasts.
So I think there's been two ofthose so far.
So we've provided the animalPeople.
Osages have come in andharvested it like they did
historically, and so they'vecome out to our Pahuska village
(14:55):
and had a big feast.
They cooked it over an openfire.
You know how they would havedone it historically.
So while we weren't involved inall of that, we have the bison
available.
So we've tried to kind ofexpand what we're able to do and
work with.
If anybody's got any ideas, wewant to hear them.
We want to figure this out,because that's what the goal is
(15:16):
for the herd is to connect ourpeople.
AJ (15:19):
Yep, I wonder, with the broader mandate across the land
as a whole and its health andits restoration to health?
The chief told us about, forexample, the well plugging that
you're trying to do somehow overthe thousands of wells and with
little money to do it.
What else is sort of on thecards or in motion, and what
sort of success are you seeingin terms of care for the land
(15:42):
more broadly?
Jann (15:43):
I think that's always kind of an evolving discussion, at
least in terms of the land thatwe have management over.
We're we're trying, well, we'retrying to do a lot of things,
but we're trying to, for one,just build the relationship
(16:04):
between our office and whatwe're doing with other osage
landowners.
Um, it kind of I don't know,it's kind of a longer term kind
of goal is to like build agreater community of landowners,
osage landowners that arewilling to come to us for, you
know, just basic managementplans, management ideas, and try
(16:26):
to kind of take what we'redoing and pass that on to, like,
you know, make a bigger impacteven outside of the land the
Osage Nation owns.
Let's do all this together.
Let's bring in some, you know,osage landowners across Osage
County and start small, eventhough that's not real small.
But, start locally and try tokind of help I don't know kind
(16:50):
of shift, the I don't know shiftthe way people look at their
land to be more kind ofconservation minded and to
understand that the things thatyou do affect so many other
resources.
You know we see a lot of.
You know kind of blanket aerialspraying for trees, but you
(17:13):
know that has so many otherconsequences.
You know on wildlife and youknow other plant species, and so
we're wanting to take anapproach with, again, the land
that we oversee and you knowhave some test plots.
Is, you know, instead of doing,you know, addressing one issue
this way that you've kind ofgrown up hearing about let's
(17:35):
shift over and do it this way,that you've kind of grown up
hearing about let's shift overand do it this way, and so you
know, maybe kind of teach somesome better strategies for
accomplishing the same goals but, um, keeping those kind of
ecosystems more intact yeah,when we first saw the the planes
flying over with the sprays, wethought that was finished.
AJ (17:54):
That was was a bit like whoa , that plane's diving low.
Oh it's dropping, wow, that'sstill happening.
I don't know that it does inAustralia.
I don't think it does.
I mean, there's plenty ofspraying don't get me wrong by
other means.
But yeah, that's sort ofclassic old DDT image.
This is what I remember growingup.
It was like, wow, it's stillgoing.
(18:14):
Yeah, you're right, it's thatsledgehammer approach isn't it
too, and?
There could be other ways tokeep the rest of the living
systems which can serve you letalone keep yeah, the whole
system functioning well so Iguess that kind of all comes
down to.
Jann (18:28):
I feel like me in my position now is is a lot of um
and there's always, you know,things that I need to take care
of, like in the office and youknow, to help the processes and
programs move forward.
But I feel like a lot of whatmy purpose is here is how can I
change the bigger processes, howcan I help change you know, I
(18:51):
guess be a be a change agent forfor the good you know like at a
systemic level.
Nicol (18:57):
Yeah, yeah, do you find that there's that your change
agent influence is affectingother producers in the area,
like, do you feel like there's amomentum of the mentality of
regeneration and conservationcatching on, or do you feel like
it's?
Jann (19:13):
I feel like that's starting.
I think just changing those oldways of thinking is, I mean,
obviously not easy.
But you know I think we'regetting there slowly, worked
really closely with the OsageLLC on the Osage Nation Ranch.
(19:38):
We oversee a portion of thatand then the other portion is
under the business arm for, youknow, the for-profit cattle
production.
So I have a lot of discussionsover the years with them and,
you know, trying to kind ofbuild a better relationship with
them and kind of to me that's agood start is they're also on
(20:04):
the Osage Nation ranch.
So let's, let's start there,let's try to kind of change some
of that mentality.
And that's not always so easy,but but yeah, I think it's a
work in progress.
I wouldn't say there's a lot ofmomentum yet.
AJ (20:18):
What have you found in the early stages, then, of what
works?
For want of a better word, Ilike to think more in terms of
what reaches people to motivatedoing something different.
What is that?
Jann (20:33):
I think there's a couple kind of ways of thinking on that
.
I think there's a couple kindof ways of thinking on that.
With a lot of, I would say,kind of with kind of the
for-profit, like agriculturaloperations, the first thing
(20:55):
that's going to you're going tohave to show or talk about is
that this isn't going to be noteven a waste of money, but
you're there's what's theadvantage, what's the financial
advantage?
That's going to be like kind ofat the root of that, I feel
like kind of the smallerproducers or kind of the more
the family operations.
You know that they have adifferent, generally speaking it
kind of a different sense.
I feel like some of the smallerproducers have, I don't know,
(21:22):
maybe a little more flexibilityand interest in wanting that
more kind of connectivity to theland, and so you know, it's
just kind of, I feel like on adifferent, depending on the
scale of the operation kind ofchanges the conversation yeah.
AJ (21:37):
I see that too.
It does raise the.
I mean even think what you weresaying before about the scale
you're looking at.
Just let's start with what'saround us.
That scale issue is a big one,from what I hear over the years
I'm doing this even and backhome it's if you abstract
yourself and your operation fromthe land past a certain
(22:00):
threshold, perhaps you could sayyou lose those other points of
connection and motivation tocare for it and so forth.
So you know, it's not that younecessarily wish badly on it,
but the structure is such thatit's so removed.
It's just you're not reallyrelating in a real way, in a
(22:24):
direct way.
So there's something about thescale into getting sufficient
benefits from scale, but perhapsnot to the extent that we have
abstracted ourselves currentlyen masse.
And then, in terms of if we'retrying to change things
systemically or instigate thosesorts of changes, it's also
something key to keep in mindFor those who might think of a
(22:46):
green world domination or thelike, that there's something
about keeping or restoringconnection.
Jann (22:54):
So we personally, me and my husband and two kids, live
just south of pahuska and so wehave some acreage there, so we
have cows and uh, we've, overthe years, um, over the last 10
years or so, we've seen a bunchof turkey, wild turkey kind of
come in and so they weren'tthere and we were hunters.
(23:19):
But we don't hunt the turkeys.
They haven't been there.
And I've heard from differentproducers, you know, throughout
Osage County there's been, youknow, kind of a decline in
people seeing wild turkey.
So we like seeing the turkeyand so, you know, there again,
we don't hunt, we, we try to tryto kind of manage you know the,
the timber, like we manage ouryou know our little prairie
(23:43):
areas and stuff and try to dothem both.
And so this time of year, um,you can hear the turkeys
gobbling and so, like everymorning and every evening I'm
hearing the turkeys gobble andit's, you know, like I don't
know it's, it's a for me, like asense of like we're doing
something right because, we can.
We have our cattle, we can haveour wildlife.
You can have both.
You just have to know how tomanage those together.
(24:05):
And so I I feel like um kind ofin those moments I wish that
some producers, otheragricultural producers, had
those kind of like light bulbmoments.
So it's like look, you can haveall of this together.
AJ (24:20):
It often takes experiencing the high, but for you it came
after, you didn't need toexperience it first you sort of
created the conditions Forothers.
It seems they need toexperience it to have the belief
that it can be done orsomething perhaps or at least
see someone else experience it.
Maybe I mean these are theinteresting things I hear a lot
about is often creatingcircumstances where people can
(24:43):
come into contexts, where it'sworking in that way.
You can be like, oh, maybe I cansee that in a patch on my place
, yeah, but that's really, Imean, that's deeply moving that
you're experiencing in that way.
I wonder too, jan, about thebig news out of last year with
the 40,000 acres plus that usedto be Ted Turner's and that used
(25:04):
to be Osage but that's comeback into Osage hands as part of
a direct concerted effort tobring back some of the lands
that are Osage lands into Osagehands.
And I wonder we talked with thechief about what it means to
put it in the sort of truststructure that it is.
But I wonder, from your pointof view, what does it mean for
your role?
Has it meant like this massivescale up speaking of scale in
(25:29):
your sense of what's possible,or, oh my God, how am I going to
manage this?
Jann (25:35):
Yes, and I've seen, from the time it was purchased until
even now, I've seen that shiftof more of that coming under our
management for the purpose of,specifically, conservation and
that's very exciting.
I'm really glad to see thatshift and there again, you know,
(25:58):
just use that as an opportunityto show other people how other
producers different ways ofmanaging it and still coming out
with the same results.
But yeah, in terms ofpossibilities, I think we're
still kind of rolling around.
So many ideas of you know we'vetalked about, of course, you
know elk is a possibility in thefuture, but you know just
(26:21):
different time types of wildlifemanagement.
You know, focusing on the turkey, focusing on you know, all
these other things, but one ofour goals is to get a, is to go
through the process and get avery solid, just biological
assessment on the pieces that weoversee.
(26:43):
You know exactly what speciesare there across the board and
let's just make sure we see itand start kind of over time
managing that, you know, andbeing able to have the science
that backs our decisions and youknow as being able to have the
science that backs our decisionsin the, you know, as we see an
increase in biodiversity.
Now we have, we can see.
You know, the science isshowing that over time, and so,
(27:05):
yeah, we all get excited.
It's just the possibilities andwhat that looks like, you know,
from now to five or 10 years?
I'm not for sure.
Um yeah, we, we want to makesure, at the end of the day, all
of the decisions that we makeare science-based.
AJ (27:22):
That's important to us so there's the science that backs
all the steps that we take is itinformed, or to what extent is
it informed too, by stories ofelders or or other inputs like
that?
Is that a big part of what'shappening?
I mean there's Chief, obviously, but are there others?
Are there other reconnecting tothe old stories, if you will?
Jann (27:45):
There are some and I think there's a lot of opportunities
for more engagement with that.
I've heard Chief and some otherelders talk about the history of
the bison in our area andhistorically, and it's very
moving.
We were discussing internallyand with our cultural department
(28:09):
team on like a bison dinnerthis was a little while back and
so the discussion was that mygeneration anyway is going to
have to learn how to you know,engage and make meals using
bison because that thatknowledge has been lost.
(28:31):
So you know and that was, Idon't know, an interesting
moment to really think aboutthat Like bison were here
historically and we know that.
We know it's significant to theOsage people, but to think of
it's not that far back wherethat knowledge was lost, it's
(28:52):
just a few generations andthat's one good thing about our
butcher house facilities we canprocess, you know, our own
animals and in a way that makessense for our people.
But to try to bring that backis, I don't know there's not
really any words for that beingable to do that, but just
(29:13):
knowing that how it doesn't takethat long for history or for
our knowledge to be lost if wedon't actively work to keep it.
AJ (29:22):
Yeah, it seems to be a moment in time, too, where the
connection's still well,literally, in some cases alive
and you can tap into it inrestoring it.
In restoring it, what are theparticular sorts of ways that
shape how a butcher house willoperate here, compared to some
others particular things thatyou've done with that?
Jann (29:46):
Yeah, so we, our team down at butcher house, works very
closely with our cooks for our,for our villages, and so I I
don't know all the specifics-but, I know that there's a
specific way that they wanttheir meat cut in very specific
(30:06):
ways.
I'm not for sure but they'reable to do that.
They keep back specific piecesthat would normally be like suet
.
They keep suet for, you know,different dishes and things like
that that they probablywouldn't normally keep otherwise
, but for our people it'simportant, so we're able to do
(30:27):
that.
So yeah they, they try to come,try to accommodate anything
that we need as a, as a nation,as a people, that we know that
other facilities wouldn't do.
AJ (30:40):
or they try, but they just don't understand yeah no, so
we're able to to meet thoseneeds yeah, I've become aware of
things like the uh intertribalagriculture council and bodies
like that.
Is that a big port of call foryou guys too to be feeding into
and learning from and exchanging?
Jann (31:01):
We work a lot with the Intertribal Ag Council.
They have an annual conferenceand we usually send people every
year to that and I think it's aunique situation because I
think you're kind of there again.
It kind of goes back to ChiefStanding Bear having just the
vision of an opportunity thatthe you know federal funds had
(31:23):
brought with the CARES funds.
But we're in a different,almost a different category, I
think, than I wouldn't say allbut some tribal nations also,
because we put so much moneyinto our infrastructure that a
(31:43):
lot of other other tribalnations didn't do, or they did
in just a little bit differentcapacity.
So as far as, like what we havedeveloped, we're leaps and
bounds ahead of a lot of othertribal nations, at least in
Oklahoma I don't know what I'mmore familiar with.
AJ (32:03):
And for those who don't know certainly Australians won't
know that's quite a lot oftribal nations in Oklahoma.
I believe there's quite aconcentration here for the
historical reasons ofcolonization and so forth.
Jann (32:14):
Yeah, so, and I'm so thankful that we have this,
because now, trying to findfederal funds to do what we did,
I don't think it would befeasible, it just wouldn't be
able to happen yeah, it's amoment in time.
AJ (32:29):
Hey, was that biden administration during covid that
where those monies werereleased, or was it even prior
to that?
Jann (32:37):
I think it was, wasn't it Biden?
AJ (32:39):
I heard from other tribal nations across the country that
they were getting monies too,and in fact they couldn't
understand why there wasn't morecredit being given.
They were hearing from peoplewho were going to vote Trump
around them and they're likehaven't you seen the support
we're getting for the first timein many cases, Did you feel
similarly?
Jann (33:02):
And I've heard chief talk a lot about that that there
weren't any.
It was really just given to thetribes to do with it how we
needed to do so there wasn't.
I mean, we still coming from theenvironmental department, we
still did our own you know,evaluations and reviews and and
just we just want to make sureto have that done, but we didn't
have the red tape that normallycomes with federal funds and so
(33:24):
we literally could just do withit as we needed and it was.
You know, Chief talks aboutthat quite a lot about if, given
the opportunity, look whattribes can do.
AJ (33:34):
Well, that's the thing and expresses the trust in that.
That too, which then can feedon itself, and you see the
success, and it's ironic in asense that the well the
metaphorical chainsaws beingtaken to funds in the name of
you know, I guess from from thatlens would be.
That's the problem.
(33:55):
We just were given money awaybut if you can see the trust
fabric that was being built andthen the real results on the
ground, when the tribes werelike your good selves, setting
up generational infrastructureyeah, and to me that's almost
the punchline it's like, ifyou're gonna cut on mass as
(34:16):
authorities, then sure, but havea look first.
Yeah, that's probably the mostconcerning thing, again from an
outside perspective, trying tomake sense of what's happening.
It's the somewhat wellabstracted I'll use that word
again just disconnected way thatit's happening.
Yeah, we just visited thegreenhouse too, another piece of
(34:41):
infrastructure that you've setup, bringing forth that other
aspect of food sovereignty,incredible structure and
incredible staff too, from whatI gather, we had some chats over
there and lovely sort of legacypiece with the pineapple coming
out of the film killers of theflower yes, I've heard that
we're the uh, and maybe it wasmentioned in the greenhouse that
(35:02):
we're the biggest producer ofpineapples in oklahoma somehow,
I have no doubt I was seeing theroad proliferate.
But yeah, so all it's thismulti-faceted thing you're
managing to create it's reallyquite inspiring what are you
seeing next, I wonder.
That's a great question.
Jann (35:24):
I think I mean kind of I mentioned earlier we're still
building capacity, so once Ithink that's just going to, at
least in terms of foodsovereignty, just continue to
grow um indefinitely.
AJ (35:37):
I atwithstanding changes at that federal level.
Jann (35:40):
Right right, yeah, with what we are able to do here.
I mean I can see the greenhousebeing, you know, maximum
production, aquaponics beingmaximum production and is
continuing to fill these spaces.
We've got the start of you knowan orchard going.
You know expanding that, youknow just expanding kind of
(36:01):
across the board.
At Butcher House one of thethings that we're working on is
field harvesting for our bison.
So you know, now we don't havethat process in place, we have
to physically take the bisonthere.
But one of the long-term goalsis to get, you know, a mobile,
you know, meat processing truckfor, like a trailer, little
mobile unit.
(36:22):
So we can go out and harvestthem in the field.
So of course that's safer forour employees, you know, safer
for the bison, you know it'sjust a better process anyway.
So you know there's at leastwith just logistics of the
facilities.
It's just always aboutexpanding and doing what we can.
AJ (36:41):
Has there been a particular moment where you've seen in
someone else a feeling of?
I don't know a feeling of areturn to strength.
Dignity, I mean all of thesethings.
Dignity, I mean all of thesethings.
(37:01):
I'm wondering if you've seenthe the outcome of all this in
any moments like that, in peoplewhere you've thought to
yourself wow, look, what thiscan do there's a few moments
like that one in particular,because also the goal of our
facilities, of our foodsovereignty facilities, is to
keep the cost down.
Jann (37:17):
So we want people to always be able to access what
we're doing without spending afortune, especially on the meat
side.
So we had a sale of burger atButcher House one day it was one
Saturday and we we had very lowcost and there was so many
(37:40):
people we had, which was great,it was a great turnout.
But there was one particularperson that somebody had told me
it was a person in our office,actually had gone down and was
waiting in line and there was alady next to him in line and she
said that she had never beenable to buy meat, that they had
(38:01):
always lived off of what theywere able to get you know deer
and things like that, you knowwild game because they couldn't
afford to go to the store andbuy meat.
So she was so excited becausethat was the first time that she
was able to actually purchasemeat, because it was affordable
yeah and that I had calledexecutive and you know, just
made sure to tell everybody.
(38:22):
I said that's why we're doingthis because, even though we can
buy meat, there are people thatcan't, and so we need to always
remember that those are thepeople that we're trying to help
.
AJ (38:34):
Wow, there's so much in that that everyone I think to be
thinking about when.
I see the I almost don't evenwant to say them, but you know
the $5 so-called meal deals thatyou'll see advertised on fast
food joints and often that's themeat they get people in those
situations compared to this andeverything it entails.
(38:55):
But to do it in that way, tomake it accessible, in that way,
it's almost again the ultimateachievement.
Wonderful Jan, you got anythingelse on your mind?
Nicol (39:07):
Something that Don said to you about getting access to
elders right.
A lot of the mobile truckyou're getting predominantly to
that contingent.
Do you feel like there's moreinterest in knowing the
importance of access to cleanfood and local food and food
(39:29):
sovereignty?
Because it just blows my mind,no matter where, even all small
farmers that are producingamazing clean food as medicine,
they oftentimes can't give itaway, which is incredibly
frustrating, and so so much ofthat is education on the
importance of clean food.
Do you have?
Don spoke to this a little bit,but in terms of how we reach
(39:53):
and that's always my interesttoo in the world of media and
marketing and storytelling ofgetting people to care more,
where are you with that?
Jann (40:01):
is that is that, I think, department that yeah and I think
, um, and we've got, um, youknow, our communications team
that is really um taking active,taking an active role in trying
to help us.
You know, get, get, get theword out.
I think that's kind of one ofthe continual challenges that we
(40:22):
have is people it just blows mymind, but they just don't know
we're here, even though we havethis facility.
People just, I don't know,assume it's not open to the
public, or assume it's only forOsages and it's not for anybody.
Open to the public, or assumeit's only for osages and it's
not for anybody, or there's alot of assumptions.
(40:42):
I feel like that's, um,sometimes challenging to
overcome.
So we're always yeah, the mobilemarket's great because we're
getting our name out there andgetting making those connections
to let people know like youdon't have to come just to the
market, no matter where it's at.
You can come here any day, fivedays a week.
Please come, we want that, wewant people to come here.
(41:04):
And so I think Butcher House isdoing a lot.
I don't know exactly why, but Ithink they're doing a lot
better.
People are using them a lotmore and of course, you know
that's a lot of uh, just private, um, private.
You know ranchers using themfor processing their own, you
(41:27):
know animals and things likethat.
But, um, but harvest landalways seems to be a little bit
of a challenge and it comes backto, in my opinion, the
education piece we have to beable to.
And it comes back to, in myopinion, the education piece we
have to be able to not give up,just keep pushing forward and
keep making connections and keepfinding ways to connect people
(41:49):
to this facility.
AJ (41:50):
You've got a retail thing here that operates through the
week.
Jann (41:54):
Yeah, really Wow.
It's not very big but we'regetting there.
But the idea originally wasthat we have this greenhouse.
You can go out and pick ityourself.
Nicol (42:04):
Yeah.
Jann (42:04):
So we have, you know, things available in our
refrigerator and in some shelvesand have a little retail place.
But the goal was kind of a youpick it thing.
You know, just come in any time, come fill your your basket,
and then you just weigh it andpay on your way out.
AJ (42:21):
They're so popular in other places.
I mean, not all work, I guess,but some we've seen, even
without the um, the culturalethical regeneration backdrop.
They're just sort of they'vejust got the local thing going
even Even just that they gocrazy so yeah, it excites people
when they do know, it seems weget excited here.
Jann (42:46):
Our employees get excited there we go.
AJ (42:48):
I'm excited.
I always talk music to leaveoff.
Actually Get back to somethingpersonal.
I had a nice chat with thechief about music on the way out
what about you?
Is there music that's been orthat perhaps is right now really
sort of pivotal to yourexperience of being alive?
Jann (43:07):
so funny.
You should mention that I umI'm also a pianist hey so I've
played since I was five.
Wow, and so I, and so music issuper important to me.
I love when I'm home.
That's my life outside of thekids and turkeys that's right
Piano.
(43:32):
And my daughter is nine.
And so when I was little takinglessons, my teacher at the time
also played the harp and so Iwas introduced to the harp.
So and then, you know, went onand never played again, so had a
little I don't know moment lastsummer.
(43:54):
So me and my daughter aretaking harp lessons.
I went and bought a harp, wehave a harp, we drive to Tulsa
twice.
A daughter are taking harplessons.
I went and bought a harp, wehave a harp, we drive to tulsa
twice a month and take harplessons.
So, uh, piano wasn't her thing.
So we're going down, I'mlearning the harp, but wow yeah,
that's cool, so even funnierstory.
Uh, well, maybe it's not funny.
My uh grandma ended up teachingme and so, um, she has a uh, I
(44:20):
was talking with her recently.
She has this uh baby gransteinway piano and I she's
always had it in her house andit's from the 1920s and so, um,
beautiful piano and uh.
so I was talking to her just acouple months ago and I asked
her um, I never asked before,what's the history on the piano?
(44:41):
We've had it in our familyforever, since the 20s.
She said my family's overseas.
She said her family bought thatin the 20s, you know, during
the whole.
You know, boom, they wereshareholders and they had some
money and so they bought thepiano and it was like just that
little piece of history.
I had no idea and I never eventhought to ask.
AJ (45:04):
Yeah, so it was just the piano in the house, wow.
Jann (45:08):
That's amazing.
AJ (45:09):
That is so interesting.
It's funny because Chief hadhis own story where we went and
looked at some old photos of hisgrandparents in that era seated
on the ground eating together,because he drew attention to
just how we come to take what wedo as normal and he said look
at this table.
We take it as normal.
(45:30):
We'd have to use a knife andfork and eat off this table
right now but.
I've got photos out in the hallof my ancestors eating out their
hands on the ground togetherand we went and had a look at
that, but same era and dressed,doing that, dressed to the nines
.
Yes, it's fascinating and sucha unique heritage and there's
that piano standing as amonument to it as well.
(45:53):
I don't suppose you've got apiano around here somewhere.
No, wouldn't that be good.
Have you recorded things overthe around here somewhere?
Wouldn't that be good?
Have you recorded things overthe journey?
No, not even I can catchsomething in.
Jann (46:05):
Who knows, I might bring one up here.
My co-workers might be like, oh, take that home.
AJ (46:10):
You start with a keyboard.
There should be a keyboard inhere.
I'm going to try when we're off.
I'm trying to convince you torecord something on your phone
and send it to me so I can putit in.
See how I go.
Thanks a lot, it's been greatspeaking with you.
Yes, and power to you.
Thank you, that's great.
Nicol (46:56):
Sh e's a powerhouse.
AJ (47:14):
That was Dr Jann Hayman, secretary of Natural Resources
for the Osage Nation.
Some pics and links on thewebsite and more for paid
subscribers soon, with greatthanks for making all this
possible.
Join us, get additional stuffand help keep the show going by
heading to the website or theshow notes and following the
prompts.
Thank you.
Jann did graciously record somepiano for us.
(47:37):
You're listening to it now.
I'm so very grateful to be ableto play it to you here.
Apparently the family was too.
Jan wrote saying thank you forthe opportunity to play.
It meant a lot to us and shesaid the song I played is nearer
my God to thee with Schubert'simpromptu in G flat major.
It's still stopping me in mytracks.
(48:08):
That concludes our series fromthe Osage Nation, though I'll
have a little bonus episode outshortly from that brief and
entertaining tour Dawn gave usin the greenhouse.
That'll play for you while wespend the week out at the Old
Salt Festival in Montana.
I'll report on that soon too.
If you missed the episode withCole from out there at the Old
(48:29):
Salt Co-op last year, you mightenjoy episode 217.
And again, if you happen tohave come to the Osage series
here first, you can hear myconversation with Chief Standing
Bear last week and the briefscene-setting introductory
episode with filmmaker NicolRagland the week prior to that.
For now, back to Jann and hergrandmother's Steinway .
(48:49):
Steinway.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening.
Jann (50:12):
Thank you.
Piano plays.
softly.
Thank you, thank you.
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