Our Reaction to the Dobbs v. Jackson Leak

In this episode, our hosts Herb Geraghty and Emiliano Vera talk through their initial reactions to the leak of the Supreme Court's draft opinion on the Dobbs v. Jackson case.

 

AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Emiliano Vera: All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Rehumanize podcast. 

[00:00:05] Herb Geraghty: It's happening!

Roe v. Wade is coming down, or at least it looks like it. No guests today. Just going to be me and Emiliano. I'm Herb here as always. We have a lot to talk about when was the last time we recorded? 

[00:00:19] Emiliano Vera: I think it was before I went on Easter break. Yeah, we're right after I came back. I don't know. I have no conception of time anymore.

[00:00:30] Herb Geraghty: That's all right. But yeah, no, the, there obviously there's been a whole lot happening in the whole world, but I think the biggest piece of news is the leaked draft of the Dobbs decision by Politico, like two weeks ago. I time has been totally at a standstill for me since that's happened. I have, I have no idea how long it's been.

I think it's been about two weeks since recording, since we have been recording this. And yeah, so, I mean, if you somehow follow Rehumanize and haven't heard there's been a draft of what looks to be the Supreme court's decision, the majority opinion. In the Dobbs V Jackson case, which for a while we've been saying has the potential to overturn Roe V.

Wade. And the majority of justice says as of May 2nd have ruled in favor of overturning Roe and upholding the 15 week ban. 

[00:01:29] Emiliano Vera: Have you read the the opinion and it's a super majority, right? It was six three, not five, four, right. 

[00:01:36] Herb Geraghty: I 

wait, I'm pulling it up now because I couldn't, I couldn't remember who, who signed onto it.

No, as of the, the leak, it was only Thomas Gor Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney Barrett and Alito Roberts hadn't signed on, but it wasn't, we, we still don't know. We only have the draft of the opinion. Right. I don't know if he is. Concurring or joining a dissenting or doing something else that's funky, or if he just hasn't decided yet, and he's going to sign on to the majority.

Obviously it wasn't supposed to come out. And so we we don't exactly know. We know that the justices can change their mind up until the day that it's released, that this was supposed to be sort of a long process of editing these drafts. So we, we have no reason to believe that the final that what has been published is the total final draft.

But if it is what is going to be released as the official opinion, it rocks to answer your question. Yes. I read most of it. I'm not a legal scholar, but luckily my girlfriend is a law student then. And she has read the entire document and the, that first night that it really, it was released. She read the entire thing and was pulling out important quotes for me.

And so that was extremely helpful to understand exactly what was going on because I read the Politico argument and basically the, the messages, the Roe V. Wade was egregiously wrong from the start and it's coming down. And this 15 week ban is constitutional which of course will open the gates to banning abortion in other ways and earlier in gestation because we no longer have the the precedent of Roe upholding the imaginary constitutional right to abortion.

But yes, I've read most of it. But a lot of the kind of footnotes I'm like, this is all legal jargon. I don't fully need to understand because I'm not a constitutional lawyer. But yeah, what I've read, I like I'm excited. It seems good. 

[00:03:40] Emiliano Vera: Yeah. I read probably like 20 pages of it. And like on Facebook and kind of like the, the week afterwards or not just Facebook, I'm not really on Facebook a lot.

And the social media is there were like some, several kinds of like pro-choice people citing some of the

Episode Transcript

Emiliano Vera (00:00):
All right, everybody.
Welcome back to the Rehumanize podcast.

Herb Geraghty (00:05):
It's happening!
Roe v.
Wade is coming down, orat least it looks like it.
No guests today.
Just going to be me and Emiliano.
I'm Herb here as always.
We have a lot to talk about whenwas the last time we recorded?

Emiliano Vera (00:19):
I think it was before I went on Easter break.
Yeah, we're right after I came back.
I don't know.
I have no conception of time anymore.

Herb Geraghty (00:30):
That's all right.
But yeah, no, the, there obviously there'sbeen a whole lot happening in the whole
world, but I think the biggest piece ofnews is the leaked draft of the Dobbs
decision by Politico, like two weeks ago.
I time has been totally at a standstillfor me since that's happened.

(00:52):
I have, I have no idea how long it's been.
I think it's been about twoweeks since recording, since
we have been recording this.
And yeah, so, I mean, if you somehowfollow Rehumanize and haven't
heard there's been a draft of whatlooks to be the Supreme court's
decision, the majority opinion.
In the Dobbs V Jackson case, whichfor a while we've been saying has

(01:16):
the potential to overturn Roe V.
Wade.
And the majority of justice says as ofMay 2nd have ruled in favor of overturning
Roe and upholding the 15 week ban.

Emiliano Vera (01:29):
Have you read the the opinion and it's a super majority, right?
It was six three, not five, four, right.

Herb Geraghty (01:36):
I
wait, I'm pulling it up nowbecause I couldn't, I couldn't
remember who, who signed onto it.
No, as of the, the leak, it wasonly Thomas Gor Gorsuch, Kavanaugh,
and Coney Barrett and AlitoRoberts hadn't signed on, but it
wasn't, we, we still don't know.
We only have the draft of the opinion.
Right.
I don't know if he is.

(01:58):
Concurring or joining a dissentingor doing something else that's funky,
or if he just hasn't decided yet, andhe's going to sign on to the majority.
Obviously it wasn't supposed to come out.
And so we we don't exactly know.
We know that the justices canchange their mind up until the
day that it's released, that thiswas supposed to be sort of a long

(02:20):
process of editing these drafts.
So we, we have no reason to believethat the final that what has been
published is the total final draft.
But if it is what is going to bereleased as the official opinion,
it rocks to answer your question.
Yes.
I read most of it.
I'm not a legal scholar, but luckilymy girlfriend is a law student then.

(02:43):
And she has read the entiredocument and the, that first night
that it really, it was released.
She read the entire thing and waspulling out important quotes for me.
And so that was extremely helpful tounderstand exactly what was going on
because I read the Politico argument andbasically the, the messages, the Roe V.

(03:03):
Wade was egregiously wrong fromthe start and it's coming down.
And this 15 week ban is constitutionalwhich of course will open the gates
to banning abortion in other waysand earlier in gestation because
we no longer have the the precedentof Roe upholding the imaginary
constitutional right to abortion.

(03:25):
But yes, I've read most of it.
But a lot of the kind of footnotesI'm like, this is all legal jargon.
I don't fully need to understandbecause I'm not a constitutional lawyer.
But yeah, what I'veread, I like I'm excited.
It seems good.

Emiliano Vera (03:40):
Yeah.
I read probably like 20 pages of it.
And like on Facebook and kind of like the,the week afterwards or not just Facebook,
I'm not really on Facebook a lot.
And the social media is there werelike some, several kinds of like
pro-choice people citing some of the,the language is used in decisions

(04:06):
as kind of like apocalyptic.
Like a harbinger of what's tocome for other rights, like that
were established by privacy's.
So either LGBT rights or, or rights tobirth control or something like that like
things established by Griswold and othercases what do you make of those kind of

(04:34):
interpretations that like, oh, the, this,this document that came out are setting
up to just like knocked down like a wholeother slew of anything that has to do with
privacy is going to get overturned now.

Herb Geraghty (04:49):
Yeah.
So I think that.
I when I first saw kind of the uproarabout that from a lot of pundits I was
also concerned because at that pointI hadn't read the decision yet that
the actual Monday night I I happento already be in DC for other events.
And so when it was released, thepeople I was with and some other

(05:11):
people from rehumanize and partnerorganizations were outside the
court within the hour demonstrating.
And by the time we were there, Ithink the article came out at like
eight 30 and we were there by nine30 and there was already hundreds
of people demonstrating almost all.
Pro-abortion.
I think that a lot of peoplejust heard the news and
immediately wanted to protest.

(05:31):
And the pro-life movementhad not come together yet.
So it, it really was just kind ofus out there at the Supreme court.
And so I, I did not have time thatnight to actually read the opinion.
And so that next day I also saw alot of that, like Alito is coming
for all of our rights there it's,it's not just abortion that we know

(05:53):
there is no right to an abortion.
There's no right to take thelife of another human being.
However, because of the sort of politicalmovement that has championed the rights
of the unborn I think people had somelegitimate concerns about other rights
that some people claim did build off ofdecisions like Griswold and Roe and Casey.

(06:14):
And so like at rehumanizeinternational, we don't really take
official positions on things outsideof issues of aggressive violence.
And so.
You know, in our capacity as anorganization, we don't really take
strong positions on things like birthcontrol or LGBT privacy rights to yeah.
Just don't hurt people.
But as an individual, you know, I havepolitical positions outside of the, the

(06:36):
mission of rehumanize international.
And so I was concerned about the, kindof the, the claims that the draft decision
seems to be gearing up to come after otherrights particularly LGBT rights that were
determined in like Lawrence and Obergefellin terms of like, you know, same-sex

(06:59):
sexual relationships and marriage.
And so I think like if I spent acouple hours being like, oh no, should
I be concerned about this opinion?
Like, should, should I actually, youknow, Advocate, you know, there's
not much to do for the Supreme court.
They're not there,they're an unelected body.
So you just kind of have tohope that they do what you want.

(07:21):
But I did share those concerns, but onceI actually read most of the opinion I
it's, it's hard for me to really seeit that way that the Supreme court
is coming after other privacy rights.
I mean, in a leader's opinion

Emiliano Vera (07:35):
seemed like very, very like specific about
like Roe vs Wade and abortion.

Herb Geraghty (07:45):
Yeah.
I mean, let me pull up some of it,because I think that Alito in the draft
goes out of his way to be very, veryexplicit that this is only about abortion.
In his discussion of privacy rights.
Let me pull up the quote.
Here it is, this was from the opinion.
Roe's defenders characterizethe abortion, right?
As similar to the rights recognizedin past decisions involving matters,

(08:08):
such as intimate sexual relations,contraception, and marriage, but a
portion is fundamentally different asboth Roe and Casey acknowledge because
it destroys what those decision calledfetal human life and what the law.
Now, before us referring tothe Mississippi law describes
as an unborn human beings.

(08:29):
At further distinguishingabortion from same-sex marriage.
Alito says none of the other decisionscited by Rohan Casey involved, the
critical moral question posed by abortion.
And then he goes on to say thattherefore, these are unrelated and
do not take what we are saying aboutthere not being a privacy, right.

(08:49):
To dismember a baby to mean thatother privacy rights are non-existent.
In general, I mean, I'mnot a constitutional layer.
I know that a lot of people have, youknow, even like LGBT affirming or LGBT
people have sort of said like actuallythese decisions that we have, like trying
to base them on the privacy, right.

(09:11):
That were established in decisions likeRO are actually not great legal precedent
anyway, because a lot of these privacyrights always said like this doesn't it.
Maybe I support the ruling, likeplenty for 50 years pro abortion I'm
pro choice legal scholars have beensaying like, no, I think abortion
should be legal, but the constitutional

Emiliano Vera (09:30):
thing, like a bad, badly determined decision.

Herb Geraghty (09:35):
Exactly.
And people, you know, sort of on all sidesof the issue, I've said similar things
about . And so I think that it Alitocomes from a particular position on you
know, LGBT marriage rights that I would,I would probably disagree with him on.
However, when the court looks atprevious court decisions to determine

(10:00):
precedent, what they're looking at iswhat's actually written in the opinion,
not, oh, well, what did Sam Alito thinkat the time that he was writing this?
And the language in this draft decisionis explicit that this is referring to
abortion because it is distinct fromother privacy rights, whether you believe

(10:21):
in these privacy rights that they arefound in the constitution or not, or if
they're just good in and of themselves,and they're not explicitly in the
constitution or they are or whatever.
I think it's important to notethat it is very different.
Then, then these other rights,because they have the question
of this unborn human being.
I think that these past couple of weeks,since the decision has leaked, I I've

(10:45):
seen from pundits and the media and, youknow, people on social media, a lot of
fear-mongering about different things.
I think that this kind of LGBTrights has been one that that's been
particularly effective in scaringpeople about this draft decision.
I think also you know, misinformationabout miscarriage and particular

(11:06):
like miscarriage managementprocedures, and it may be necessary.
Topic pregnancies, things that people dohave, I think, legitimate fears about.
Because they've been told by themedia and by the abortion industrial
complex that pro-life Americans aretrying to criminalize things like

(11:28):
miscarriage and treatment for ectopicpregnancies, which is just not true.
I think every, every once in a whilethere like a fringe legislator that
doesn't know what he's doing, there wasone in Ohio once that that it made it
into a bill that treatment for epilepticpregnancy, though, it wouldn't be illegal.
Like it said something like, ideallythis would be the, the embryo would

(11:51):
be reimplanted in the womb, whichat this point there's not really the
medical technology for that to happen.
Anyway.
So the only treatment for atopic pregnancyincludes ending the life or the, or
the child's life ending as a result inorder to save the life of the mother.
I have never met a pro-lifeperson who actually opposes that.
I've never met a pro-life personwho opposes DNCs for miscarriages,

(12:15):
for children who have already died.
However, we see this fear-mongeringand propaganda from a lot of people in
the media and the abortion industrialcomplex in order to intimidate
people into thinking that thestatus quo is kind of this neutral.

(12:36):
Human centered way oflegislating abortion.
But the reality is that thestatus quo is egregious.
We in this country, we have two over2000, about 2,500 individual children
being killed every day by abortion.
Like this, it is extremist.
We have abortion post viability in manystates in this country, totally legal

(13:00):
with, you know, not even talking aboutlike medically indicated ones where,
you know, the, the woman's healthmay be in danger or the child may,

Emiliano Vera (13:10):
which we know the majority of post viability
abortions are elective and not doneto save the life of the mother or
because of fetal non compatibilitywith life or something like that.

Herb Geraghty (13:21):
Yeah.
I think that basically thesepast couple of weeks have been an
exercise for me, sort of in on thefront lines, talking to people.
Outside the court protests and onsocial media and speaking to the media,
it's really just been an exercise incorrecting a lot of misinformation.
I mean, plenty of people stillbelieve that overturning Roe

(13:44):
will make abortion illegal.
Like that's, that's just not true.
It will.
It will send me a shoe back to thestates and legislators will be able
to listen to their constituents whowant abortion to be illegal in those
states and legislate accordingly.
Although we know that the, the abortionissue will still be extremely important
in, in many states that that seemedto be signaling that they not only

(14:08):
are going to continue to have sort ofextremist post viability abortion laws.
But they're actually trying to becomesanctuary cities for abortion, where they
are putting taxpayer money into gettingpeople from other states into their
states in order to get abortions there.
And so I, the people I think on bothsides, there's just not a lot of clarity

(14:32):
about exactly what this decision means.
If it, if it even comes down, ifit comes down in this way we've
seen the pro-abortion movementtrying to actively intimidate the
justices into changing their minds.
We've seen you know, throughprotests, including outside the
homes of these justices explicitlytelling them, you know, we're not

(14:55):
going to accept this decision.
You need to change your mind.
I'm hopeful that, you know, Alito andKavanaugh and Coney Barrett and the rest
of them aren't successfully intimidated.
And I, I don't think they will beBut I think that it's important right
now that we, as pro-lifers push backagainst that narrative that we show
the reality of the pro-life movement,which was, which is that we are a

(15:18):
movement that exists to protect humanrights and to serve pregnant people.
And in particular, low income womenwho face you know, difficult pregnancy
circumstances and, and make it clear thatwe are standing with them, that, you know,
the abortion industrial complex for yearshas pushed this narrative that abortion

(15:42):
is needed, that violence is needed inorder to have equality or liberation or
As Yellen recently said, you know, itneeded for the economy, which is truly
shocking, which is like, that's some

Emiliano Vera (15:58):
evil capitalist propaganda.

Herb Geraghty (16:03):
Yeah.

Emiliano Vera (16:03):
It's wild.
To me, just the blatant illiteracy inthe general public about what abortion
laws in the United States actually arecompared to abortion laws in the entire
rest of the world, including you know, theestablished social democracies of Western

(16:28):
Europe, like a country, for example, likeSweden, where abortion is a permitted.
Up to the first.
I can't remember if it's 12 or 14 weeks,but like throughout Europe there are

(16:49):
limits on on abortion that are lessthan the law that is being challenged
in the Supreme court from Mississippi.
So like, you can talk about thedifferences in like access, for example,
where in the United States you haveto pay for abortions out of pocket.
Except for in the largest states thatcommit the most abortions like California

(17:13):
and New York that are covered by Medicare.
And in which case it is socializing.
You don't have to pay out of pocket ifyou are under a certain income level.
But for most of Europe, most of theworld The the week limits on abortion
are already much, like, much more thanany type of limits are tolerated at all

(17:42):
in the United States without having likea massive up a massive uproar about it.

Herb Geraghty (17:49):
Yeah.
I think that if the majority of EUcountries in particular, 12 weeks
as the limit for elective abortion,

Emiliano Vera (17:56):
yes.
I saw somebody somebody who I, I likeand follow on Twitter said something a
while ago about, oh, Greece is a reallyinteresting example that it's a, a
socially conservative religious countrywhere abortion is legal and publicly
funded and then asterisk up to 12 weeks.

(18:17):
And I was like, you realize thatthe Mississippi law puts a 15.
Week limit on abortion, right?
Like there's just a complete disconnectfrom reality of what abortion law
currently is in the United States, acomplete disconnect from reality about
what overturning Roe would actuallydo, which once again, would not make

(18:42):
abortion illegal in the United States.
It would return to the status quothat it was before 1973, where the
states could it like through theirown democratic legislatures decide
themselves, you know, before an unelectedbody of nine male justices decided
that Nope, this is just the law now.
In the article that I'm writing forrehumanize right now, I also point

(19:05):
out that the legalization of abortion.
Pretty closely followed theurban uprisings of the sixties
in the civil rights movement.
And like the, the debate out of New Yorkespecially is pretty like blatant they're
like, yeah, we hope that we'll be ableto reduce the amount of births on do you

(19:25):
unwed mothers and two people on welfare.
And then like other than states likeNew York and California the other states
that were taking out borrow or thatwere taking up the liberalization of
abortion law before Roe was decided,were the states in the south that were
in the process of basically gettingreprimanded for their sterilization

(19:50):
laws that were horrible and Found tobe illegal and basically just replacing
sterilization laws with abortion.
So it was not like abunch of liberal states.
It was Republican California, RepublicanNew York and the south that were the
states that were liberalizing abortionbefore Roe just came in and did

(20:12):
everything, you know, funded the entire

Herb Geraghty (20:15):
point about that we all know that the sort of rise of
the abortion movement was very muchled by the leaders in the eugenics
movement in the, in the, at that time.
And I think that the, that point youmade about, you know, reducing, you

(20:36):
know, it was clear, it was clearlyracial and it was clearly able to rest.
But I think the, the, the class-basednature of it too is so important.
Like you said, like, We want to limitthe amount of people on welfare and
their ability to continue havingchildren, because that is more
children that need state support.
And I think that we talk about thatas, you know, as kind of a memory of

(21:01):
the past that now the abortion rightsmovement has really situated itself on
the left and as a movement, you know, forsocial justice and for women's rights.
And for health, health care justicewhich is, you know, to us or
appalled by, because we know thatabortion is, is an act of violence.
And so it doesn't reallymake sense in that context.

(21:23):
But they sort of no longerlead with eugenics first.
Rhetoric.
However, in these past coupleof weeks, when I have been
talking to people, I've seen the

Emiliano Vera (21:34):
eugenic rhetoric pop out on social media and just like in comments

Herb Geraghty (21:40):
and I, and I, I'm not great at the, at the discourse on social media.
I have.
A difficult time talking to peoplebehind a screen, because I think
that it's just not my calling.
I'm much better atface-to-face conversation.
And I, because I think that it'shappened multiple times because when we
were out there in front of the court,about half the time, you know, people

(22:02):
really came up to us and they saw oursigns with secular pro-life messaging
and consistent life ethic messagingand you know, sort of liberal leaning
or left leaning pro-life messaging.
And they came up to us and they werereally surprised and interested, actually
interested in what we have to say.
And so I think that for a lot ofpeople, their guard was down a little
bit when they were discussing this.
And I heard so many people explicitlysay, you know, bring up things like,

(22:28):
well, our tax dollars are going to haveto pay for all of these children born.
If abortion is illegal and

Emiliano Vera (22:39):
they should have been doing that.

Herb Geraghty (22:41):
Well, so my thing Emiliano is that what, when they would say
that almost every time, I would say.
Do you really mean, doyou really mean that?
Do you really have a problem withpoor people having more children?
And they would sort of thinkabout it for a moment and then,
and then say, oh, no, no, no.
Not if they want to, I don't mindif my tax dollars are paying for,

(23:02):
you know, things like WIC and goodprograms that help you know, mothers
and children and low-income families.
However, in the back of their mind,they've sort of been told that that's one
of the reasons that they need abortion.
And I think that, or that weneed abortion as a country.
More particularly usuallythat poor women need abortion.
But I think that it's interesting thatthat messaging is more subliminal now

(23:28):
and that most of the people who areusing it, I don't think actually mean it.
I think that most of these peopleare actually sort of liberal minded
and they, they, they are not.
They are not actual eugenicists, but theyhave that sort of implicit bias against
poor people having children that, thatthey haven't sufficiently unlearned yet.

(23:53):
Because that eugenic rhetoric isn't atthe forefront of the movement because they
know it's embarrassing and they know it'ssomething that they, you know, the leaders
of the movement know that they need tohide it behind the euphemism of choice.

Emiliano Vera (24:06):
Well, and I think you see lots of middle-aged and older people
still using that, like more readilyusing that rhetoric because that was
the rhetoric until probably like, likethe early two thousands like that they,
they didn't catch on to like, oh, maybewe're being a little bit too racist

(24:31):
too, obviously racist and classistin our messaging until like probably.
I mean, the, the, the coalition andthat formed of the democratic party of
being like, like liberal internationalcapitalists with like some select
human rights groups or like kindof issue based groups like that.

(24:58):
Wasn't that wasn't and kind oflike leaving unions and workers in
the dust, like that wasn't reallyfully complete until the late
nineties or early two thousands.
So like the, just the material conditionsfor that coalition, where they would
have to change their rhetoric to not beexplicitly racist or eugenicist, like

(25:20):
wasn't there until relatively recently.

Herb Geraghty (25:27):
So, what have you felt like has been your experience sort of
in your kind of personal life and in anonline with the reaction to this decision?
I guess both from pro-abortion peoplein your life and from pro-life people?

Emiliano Vera (25:45):
So I have been kind of a reticent to comment directly on, I
mean, the, my, most of my interactionsnow with Americans are on social media.
So I've been kind of cautious to sayanything directly on social media,
because I've been like, who iseveryone is just kind of just blatantly

(26:14):
repeating misinformation right now.
And should I wait to let peoplebe less mad for a little bit?
Or like, does it like, you know, thereare studies on this where, you know,
responding to factually incorrectinformation with factually correct

(26:35):
information to somebody who is just madabout something doesn't correct them.
And so I've just kind of been watchingand on the one hand, very, very proud
of not just rehumanize and other kind ofconsistent life ethic groups, but also

(26:58):
like even a lot of the more conservativepro-life groups that I, you know, agree
with on abortion, but, you know, mightnot agree with on a lot of other things.
I've been very encouraged bya lot of their statements.
And I rehumanize signed on to aletter that was promoted by a whole

(27:23):
huge spectrum of pro-life groups.
You know, saying if, if Roe is overturnedin abortion at some point does become
illegal again that we do not want tosee like women charged for crimes.
And so I think that has been the,

Herb Geraghty (27:41):
and the people charged for crimes.
There are people who haveabortions charged for crimes.
If a woman is an abortionist then sheshould be charged with the crime of.

Emiliano Vera (27:50):
So exactly.
So, so pregnant, pregnant people whochoose to have an abortion to acquire an
abortion it should not be the ones whoare facing the legal penalties of it.
And just kind of general,very strong reaffirmations
of, you know, love them both.
We're here for the woman and the childand counteracting a lot of the very kind

(28:15):
of negative and hysterical misinformationthat is being promoted by the other side.
And then there's, then there's theother side, you know, I running a lot
of leftist circles and things likethat, that To see them kind of promoting
this, the type of classes and racistpropaganda that is justifiable when

(28:36):
talking about abortion and completelyagainst everything that they stand
for, everything every other time hasjust been very annoying discouraging.
For me, especially since I gave up socialmedia for lent, and this is like the
first thing that happens, like rightafter I get back onto social media.
And I'm like oh, I don't wantto, I don't want to see you guys.
But yeah just kind of a lot ofnervous waiting, I guess for me.

Herb Geraghty (29:02):
Yeah, I'll agree.
I think that I have pretty impressedwith the kind of traditional mainstream
pro-life movement in this moment.
I think that there could be a tendency.
Among some people or groups to wantto take this moment to kind of gloat
because the reality is like, wewant, like, we're, we're winning.

(29:24):
It looks like we're about, we're aboutto have a major victory in terms of
the amount of organizing and work thathas gone into, you know, creating a
reality where this could be possible

Emiliano Vera (29:37):
it is an undeniably good thing.
And I do think there is absolutely roomfor, you know, healthy celebration.
Yeah, exactly.

Herb Geraghty (29:45):
I think I've seen that I've seen a healthy celebration and I
haven't seen, and I've seen from mostpro-life organizations and leaders.
Really taking this momentto lead with compassion.
And I appreciate that because I thinkthat like we've been talking about right
now, misinformation and, and reallydisinformation about what it will look

(30:09):
like in a post Roe America is rampant.
And I think that there are a lot of fears.
I think that there's a lotof fear mongering going on.
And as a result, a lot of.
People in this country who have thecapacity to get pregnant are scared when
they're being told by people who they lookup to that if you have a miscarriage, you

(30:31):
could go to jail or that perhaps certainprocedures like DNE for miscarriage or
DNC for a miscarriage could be could becriminalized and therefore unavailable.
And so you might die of sepsis for, youknow, the, the crime of, of your child
dying a natural death before they're born.

(30:51):
And I think that I, I have been impressedwith pro-life leaders, sort of calmly
being able to respond to this information,this misinformation and show them
that no, that's not what we're doing.
I think that this letter that I am proudto have signed onto from national right to
life, but very explicitly says not only.

(31:12):
Do we not want laws that criminalizepeople for their pregnancy outcomes?
We not only do we just hopethat's not the case, but we, as
pro-life leaders are going to workto ensure that is not the case.
You know, we have connections withanti-abortion legislators and we're
willing to hold their feet to the fireto ensure that our values of truly loving

(31:35):
them, both aren't ignored in favor ofsort of retributive prosecutorial mindset
of just wanting to punish people who arein desperate situations and feel like
abortion is their only option or peoplewho have the, you know, the horrible,
unfortunate reality of, of a miscarriage.

(31:58):
And I think that I have been excited tobe able to work with a diverse coalition
of pro-life people from, you know,all different sorts of backgrounds and
across the entire political spectrum,who've been able to come together and
say, no, this work isn't over all rowdoes let's turn it back to the states.
And so of course the work isn'tover because there's going to be

(32:21):
plenty of states where abortionwill still be legal and pre-born
children will not be protected.
So we're going to need to continueto work on making legislative change,
but also our work isn't over becausehalf of what the pro-life movement
does, isn't legislative at all.
It's about serving pregnant people in ourcommunities and serving young families and

(32:41):
young, pregnant uh, young young parentingpeople young parents, so that they don't
feel like abortion as their only option.
And I think that the pro-lifemovement has been doing that over
these past few weeks, you know, Thisdecision hasn't even been final yet.
But you know, throughout thistime there's still people in our

(33:01):
communities who need our support.
And so throughout all this time, pregnancycenters have still been operating.
Maternity homes have still been operating.
We've seen, I've been out on the sidewalkin front of abortion clinics, doing the
regular sidewalk outreach that I do,and that I encourage everyone to do.
If you have an abortion clinic in yourcommunity, which you likely do if you
live in the United States that you know,this work is, is still needed, regardless

(33:26):
of if the decision comes out the way wewant it to, or not like the, the, the goal
of actually making abortion unthinkableis something that is serious to pro-life
leaders and pro-life community members.
And I think that I have.
Heartened to see that that work hasn'tbeen just totally forgotten because we've

(33:48):
had the, we've had this victory, or itappears as though we're about to have
a victory within the next two months.

Emiliano Vera (33:56):
I think just as the pro-life movement has gotten
more internationalized and lessfocused on just the United States.
Especially with in the wake ofsome pretty devastating losses
in Ireland, across Latin America.
I think they're like the experiencesof leaders there who were like, oh, we.

(34:16):
Waited until way too late tostart organizing this and assuming
that just because the law was onour side, then we didn't have to
have a mass movement behind us.
And so I think there is definitely somegood promise, I think in the reaction of
pro-life organizations across the spectrumto the leak that, oh, like even if we

(34:39):
like, quote unquote win in this, thistime, like, that doesn't mean that we're
just gonna, you know, pack it up anymore.
Because one legislatively there's stillother there's still other battles to fight
across like literally every 50 states.
But yeah, that there are socialaspects to the pro-life work that's

(35:02):
still need to be done and still peoplethat still needs to be advocated.
And I think, yeah, that's kind ofwhat caught lat America by surprise
is just that, you know, all youneed is a majority of judges.
One time basically to, to implementabortion laws and it, if you're not

(35:23):
ready for it, then you're going toget taken off guard and organizing
after the fact is too late.

Herb Geraghty (35:32):
Yeah.
Yup.
And I mean, in terms of our work, notbeing done, just look at the mission
of rehumanize even if the decisioncame down and abortion was illegal
across the United States you know,there, there of course would be all
of that work of still supportingpregnant people in our community.
But our work as a consistent lifeethic movement, like that's only

(35:55):
one issue to tick off the list.
We still have war and the deathpenalty and police brutality and
torture and euthanasia and all formsof violent discrimination and abuse.
So I think, I think that this continuesto be a moment of celebration while,
and a moment of optimistic celebration,because we're hopeful that the decision

(36:17):
will come out sooner than later.
Probably around June, the end of June.
But you know, The, the moment ofcelebration really can only be a short
moment before we get back to work.
I know, you know, even at the Rehumanizeteam were sort of planning out our
summer and this Dobbs decision being upin the air makes planning things hard

(36:39):
because we know that if the decisiondoes come out on a random Monday, we're
going to need to mobilize immediatelyand get all of our supporters out there
to continue representing and doing thiswork and demonstrating for, you know,
for the unborn and for this movement.
But we also have plenty of otherstuff that we're doing this summer.
Even outside of abortion, we havetwo anti-war conferences that we

(37:02):
are you know, partnering with and,and and participating in, we have an
anti-death penalty week of action.
That's going to be if Roe V Wade gets, orif the Dobbs decision gets decided at the
end of June, when we think it will be.
That next day, I'm going to start thean anti-death penalty week of action
which is going to be a total whirlwindbecause I'm sure that things will be

(37:26):
very busy and picking up after theDobbs decision does finally come out.
So all of us to say that there,there just is so much work to
be done on all of these issues.
And so yes, take this moment to celebrate,but more importantly, figure out what
it is that you can be doing withinthis movement or within other movements

(37:48):
or within your own community to servethe needs that, that aren't being met.
And to advocate for justice, for,to advocate for justice and for
human rights for all human beings.
Yeah.

Emiliano Vera (38:02):
So you've been doing a lot of the.
Talking to the media talkingto counter protestors, or I
don't know, maybe you guys areconsidered the counter protesters.
What what,
how do you talk to people?
This is something that I'm usually greatat, but I have found myself, like, not

(38:27):
like, I, I don't think that I would beable to, I feel like I won't be able
to help the narrative very much rightnow while it feels so heated in charge.
But then I asked myself, youknow, we'll ever be able to say
anything again, because like, it'salways going to be human in charge
now during this entire battle.

(38:47):
So like for, I, I think it'sgoing to be very uncomfortable
for especially people in.
Either more liberal or leftist pro-lifegroups or in the consistent life ethic.
Where probably like we have a lot,like the majority of our friends are,
you know, other liberal leftist peoplewho are pro-choice like what do we do?

(39:13):
How do we, how do we like bring this up?
When it's so just heated, but alsojust filled with disinformation.

Herb Geraghty (39:25):
Yeah.
So I think it depends heavily on context.
I think that I have been having a lot ofvery sort of high conflict conversations
lately because I've been out, youknow, doing this kind of rehumanizing
discourse with the people who arepassionate enough to show up to a protest.

(39:47):
For abortion.
And so I think that those conversationsare going to be a lot different than
people then conversations with peoplewho you might have already in your life.
So I can say for the conversations thatI've had, it's been really important
to take our breath and to actuallylisten to what the other side is saying.

(40:09):
I think that I have had people come up tome and, you know, sort of come up to me.
And some of the people in our teamwho have been, you know, holding signs
and demonstrating in these, thesemoments of more calm during protests,
or even after protests when thingsare dying down and come up and say,
Hey, I really just want to talk.
I want to hear your perspective.

(40:30):
And then they ask me.
You know, well, why areyou against abortion?
And I begin speaking and I say,well, so I believe that it should
be illegal to kill human beings.
And the scientific consensus is that,and then I can't even begin to sort
of, you know, make my argument for whyI'm anti-abortion, which, you know,

(40:51):
if you want, the, the totality of youcan go to rehumanizeintl.org/abortion.
But essentially that, you know, thescientific community is out of consensus.
We see that the unborn isundeniably a human being.
They are living their whole, they aregenetically distinct, and I believe it
should be illegal to kill human beings.
And I see abortion as,you know, a part of that.

(41:14):
And so it should be illegal.
And that, you know, there's a lotof other nuances that you need to
have in the conversation, but that'skind of my, my main pitch that I
make to start the conversation.
But I have found that in, in probablymost of the conversations that
I've had, I'm not even able to get.
A fifth word in my main argument before,you know, the person who approached

(41:36):
me to have a conversation sort ofsnaps back and starts yelling at me.
What about rape?
What about miscarriage?
What about this?
You think women should go to jail?
You think this, you, Donald Trump saidthis, your movements as this sort of
like a lot of, you know, just suddenreactions that I think are caused by
pain and fear because of, you know, themisinformation and the perception that

(42:01):
they have of the pro-life movement.
And so it's been really important forme to, to really not kind of snap back
in the way that might be natural to me.
When someone is lying about me to my facesaying that I've voted for Donald Trump
and I support all these policies that Idon't support and that I, that I do there.

(42:22):
And then I, yada yada.
You know, it's easy for me towant to say, no, I didn't shut up.
You're wrong.
But I've had to remind myself thatthese people often are coming from a
place of fear and have a really seriousdistrust for the pro-life movement.
And so I think that listening to theirconcerns and affirming their concerns

(42:44):
has been important in this moment.
You know, for the people who I tell you,the criminalization of miscarriage has
come up in 100% of the conversationsthat I've had with people on the ground.
And so I don't know if that's actuallyreflective of this wider moment, but I
think that it's really been telling to me.

(43:05):
And I, I think I sort of have seenpro-life people online respond to
that kind of thing with like an eyeroll emoji, like, oh, come on, no
one wants to criminalize miscarriage,like, you know, kind of diminishing
their concerns and talking over them.
And I, and I believe, you know, that'sjust not a very nice way to communicate
with people, but it's also less effectivebecause I, I have had these conversations

(43:28):
where, you know, if someone tells me,I am really concerned that I'm going
to have a miscarriage and then notbe able to, you know, have that child
removed in a DNC procedure or, you know,whatever needs to be done, or I'm going
to have enough topic pregnancy, andit's going to be illegal for me to it's
going to be illegal to get treatmentfor that, which will lead to my death.

(43:49):
Like that is a real fearthat a lot of women have.
Based on the misinformation that they'vebeen fed from the, the abortion industrial
complex and from the media on this.
And so I think that hearing them out andactually listening to them and sort of
nodding along and making it clear, like,yeah, no, that, that is really scary.
I'm really sorry that, that,that you're afraid of that.

(44:13):
And then once they, you know, sortof tire themselves out at yelling at
you from yelling at you about thatresponding, can I let you know, like
ask, actually asking them, can I letyou know what I think about that?
And actually what the laws that have beenproposed and what the trigger laws that
are already on the books that are goingto go into effect once Roe is overturned.

(44:34):
Can I tell you what those actually say?
I hear that you're very scared and I wantto let you know that we in the pro-life.
I don't want that and that ourlegislators don't want that.
And that if there ever are legislatorswho are working to do things like
criminalized treatment of atopicpregnancies or miscarriage management,

(44:56):
that we will be with you, and that weare with you in saying absolutely not,
we never want a person to go to jailfor experiencing the loss of their
child, whether it's through, you know,an atopic pregnancy that needs to be at
ended or through a natural miscarriageor through, you know, one of those other
thing procedures that can be calledabortions by certain medical companies.

(45:19):
But when we're talking, when the pro-lifemovement is talking about abortion,
we're talking about elective abortionsin which we are intentionally ending
the life of a living human child.

Emiliano Vera (45:31):
The the, the, the term in romance languages
to just be like a lot clearer.
So it's in Spanish and French.
It's a voluntaryinterruption of pregnancy.
Wow.

Herb Geraghty (45:45):
That is mine because that is the heart of yeah.
In

Emiliano Vera (45:50):
In Spanish, aborto means and any, any like premature ending
of a pregnancy, natural or unnatural.
So like the the, the legal languageand like the, the language that is
officially used, I think lots of times,actually more in Europe than in Latin
America where like American influence hasallowed, like the word just aborted the

(46:13):
abortion to like be the, the main word.
And then also like with all of theconfusions that come along with
it, because abortion, abortionmeans everything rather than.
Or it's like it's equivalent inFrench, which is like what the
laws actually say, but like that.
And like it uses the, the theabbreviation IBE and like that I feel just

(46:38):
linguistically it gives a lot more clarityabout, you know, what the, what the actual
procedure that we are discussing is.

Herb Geraghty (46:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, because that is, I thinkthese linguistic differentiation.
Are extremely important and oftenoverlooked by pro-life people.
Because I think that I know people whohave had a natural miscarriage and then
they are totally just served and upsetto find that when they get a bill back

(47:14):
from the hospital, it says that theyhad an abortion because technically
speaking for a lot of insurance companiesand in the medical field, natural
miscarriages are spontaneous abortions.
And then the, the kind of naturalstigma that is attached to abortion.
And of course there should be astigma against abortion because
it is an act of violence.

(47:35):
That stigma is carried over to womenwho have natural miscarriages which
there should be no stigma about like,that's just a horrible, natural death
and, you know, we mourn with them.
And so I think that.
The abortion industry and the sort ofpundits who push pro-abortion rhetoric,
they intentionally take that confusionand that unfortunate linguistic situation

(48:00):
where there isn't a clear word forelective abortion, for a reason not to
save the life of the mother and thatthe pop culture pop in pop culture.
We mainly just call that abortion.
They take that and they intentionallystoke that fear and try to push

(48:21):
the narrative that pro-life peoplewant to criminalize things like
treatment for ectopic pregnancy,and miscarriage or stillbirth.
And I think that, you know, to finish myearlier thought, what is important right
now is correcting that misinformation.
But doing so in a compassionateway that recognizes.

(48:43):
Yeah.
If you believe that peopleare trying to criminalize
miscarriage, that is really scary.
I can understand why you arescreaming at me right now.
And you're so upset with me if youreally think that's what I believe.
Let me demonstrate toyou how that isn't true.
And let me commit to you that I'm onyour side when it comes to this issue.

(49:04):
And that I am going as a pro-lifeleader, I am going to work to
ensure that no legislator thinksthat it is ever appropriate to
criminalize these pregnancy outcomes.
And so I think that that has beenreally important, like getting past
that, those, those initial fears andreservations about overturning Roe

(49:24):
V Wade, before I can really actuallytalk about my position on abortion,
which of course is that it is an act ofviolence and that it should be illegal.
But you have to be able to get peopleto that place where they are ready for,
you know, the kind of difficult workof re-examining, you know, your deeply

(49:48):
held political views on, on this issue.
And you need to get them to trust youthat you, you know, you are not this
caricature of, you know, the, theevil right-wing legislator in Texas
who just wants to send women to jailfor having abortions or for having
miscarriages or for you know, whatever.
I think that this moment for mehas really been about deescalating,

(50:14):
a lot of conversations andreminding myself and honestly
reminding them sometimes like that.
We're all just people here that I havea particular political position and.
Particular political position.
I do not think that you areevil for supporting abortion.
I think that most people whosupport abortion deeply care about

(50:38):
the rights of women and peoplewho can get pregnant and that they
are concerned for their wellbeing.
And I think that most of themhaven't considered enough about
the rights of the unborn child.
And I think that our work is often, youknow, educating them about the science
of embryology and fetal development andthe reality of what takes place during

(50:59):
an abortion procedure and the horror thattakes place during that act of violence.
But you know, making it clear to themthat I don't think that they're stupid
or evil for disagreeing with me on this.
I think it's likely that theymay be misinformed and that they
may be repeating misinformationand correcting it when necessary.

(51:19):
But that I think that we should be ableto come together and find common ground.
I mean, things like how to bettersupport pregnant and parenting people,
whether or not abortion is illegal.
And, and those sort of, you know, publicpolicies as well as private charity and
the different work that needs to be donein order to create a culture of life where

(51:42):
regardless of if abortion is legal or not,people are supported in their pregnancies
and in their choice to, to choose life.
And I think that highlighting commonground and working with people to, to
really rehumanize this discourse andto rehumanize, you know, people on the

(52:03):
other side of the aisle, whether thatis, you know, the pro-abortion person
or their perception of us as pro-lifepeople has been the primary goal.
I think that I haven't hada lot of really strong.
Pro-life conversions in this momentbecause tensions are so high.
However I have, and I, and I've seen myteam members who are out in, you know,

(52:27):
even better at me, even better than medoing this discourse talking to these
people and I'm seeing them plant seedsthat at least can sort of give people
a little bit of ease that we are notslipping into some sort of Handmaid's
tale, dystopia, where you know, womenare going to be oppressed and you know,
all of our privacy rights and all of ourrights are under attack that the people

(52:52):
standing on the other side of the issuethan you, if you're a pro-abortion person.
Our justice minded.
They're deeply concerned about therights of children and they are also
deeply concerned about the wellbeingand welfare of their parents.
And, and looking for those places wherewe can come together and support people.

(53:12):
Again, and I keep saying sort oflike, regardless of if abortion is
on the table or not, because whetheror not abortion is legal, those
needs are still going to be there.
And I think that we need to pro-lifepeople, especially recommit ourselves
in this moment to the service thatwe already do for people in those

(53:34):
difficult pregnancy circumstances.

Emiliano Vera (53:39):
Yeah.
And also like.
It's frustrating to me because Ithink this could be, and you know,
we're doing the work, you're doingthe work more on the ground than I am.
I'm just sitting at my computerand writing blog posts.
I keep, I keep mentioning this, buteverybody watch out for my upcoming
thorough economic analysis of thefunction of abortion to the capitalist

(54:01):
class and how it relates to the racistpolicies of incarceration and defunding
of the welfare state after the 1970s.
But like this, the thing that frustratesme is that this could be a moment to
discuss, you know, if the media wantedto be honest, how you know, like, what is

(54:26):
it, 70% of people They always say that twothirds of people want a row to be upheld.
They don't say that, you know, whenyou actually explain the trimester
system, like two thirds of peoplesupport putting a limit on abortion
to the end of the first trimester andthat's which Roe prevents explicitly

(54:48):
for those of you don't, who don'tknow Roe makes abortion effectively
legal out all well low-brow and thenCasey effectively makes abortion legal
throughout all nine months of pregnancy.
Definitely up until the endof the second trimester.
And then after thatbasically state by state.
And so that, that is like wild.

(55:12):
Out of step with public opinion whichgenerally sees like even people who
consider themselves just kind of,I would say like naturally you're
apolitical pro-choice of like, ah, weshouldn't mess with people too much.
The end of the first trimester is wherepeople tend to draw the line of when
it's permissible to have abortion,which is also incidentally the line

(55:36):
that most European countries draw.
So like rather than like allowingus to have a a discourse in
which we acknowledged, like thebroad overlap like let's say like
two-thirds of what we're saying.
Like most people agree on it'sjust like this hyper partisan,
like narrowing in, on a very tiny.

(55:57):
Minority of cases and a very tinyminority of what people think
is allowable and permissible.
You had a much more hopefulwrapping up to this than I did

Herb Geraghty (56:20):
now.
It's like, I, I mean, I thinkthe whole thing is hopeful.
I think that, like right now, we'rekind of, you know, it's, it's easy
to kind of get in the weeds ofexactly what next steps are, but
this is a very hopeful moment.
Like I think that life wins.
I think that, you know,I'm never going to forget.
Being, I was in an Airbnb with abunch of pro-life friends already.

(56:43):
And we were actually making signsor a different thing, a different
pro-life event that we wereplanning that had to be canceled.
And I guess, postponed because thenthe decision was leaked and suddenly
we had to respond to that instead.
But you know, being surrounded by, youknow, this community of pro-lifers,
you know, I was with people, someonewas as young as I think, 20 years old.

(57:06):
And then there was also a 16 yearold that joined us later that night.
And then as old as someone who Ibelieve was like 74 and then, you
know, just seeing this totallydiverse group of people come together.
When I think I was the first person to getthe news, cause Maria Oswalt who is just
chronically online sent me the link causeshe saw it immediately and sent it to me.

(57:27):
And so I read it and I think I read it andI didn't really understand it until I was
like halfway through the article exactlywhat the implications of this were.
And so I said it out loud and thensent it to everyone in the room and
we all silently read the articlefor you know, about five minutes.
And then we were like, okay,so we got to get to the court.
And so I think like since thenI really have been in that.

(57:47):
Kind of moment of, again, celebrationand joy and jubilation that finally,
it looks like we're going to seesome justice for the 63 million plus
children who have been killed bythe abortion regime in this country.
And so I think that, you know,as we're going, as I've said, and
we're going to have to keep sayingand doing the work is not done.

(58:10):
But this is certainly a momentof incredible joy and hope.
And I am excited to, to be a part ofit with all of my, all of my friends
and all of the people in my life whohave, you know, like, you know, Mike
who was there and was in the seventieswho have been working on this, some
of them for like 50 years to see thismoment and to be there and, you know,

(58:32):
like I'm on the bandwagon or I've onlybeen in the movement for like six years
and I, I get to be on the winning side.
So that rocks.
But to, to be with this communityof justice minded, human
centered human rights, activistswho are seeing a victory.

(58:52):
I mean, it's, it, it is a momentof extreme joy and extreme hope.
And you know, of course the work doesn'tend here and we, and we need to continue
this fight in, you know, on many fronts,but overall optimism, joy, et cetera.

(59:13):
So that's a, that's a happy thought to endthis episode of the Rehumanize podcast on
I hope that we get it edited and out intime before Roe actually does come down.
Because again, we don't exactlyknow when that's gonna happen.
Which is such an interesting policyabout like the Supreme court just
refuses to let us know when theyrelease their, their decisions.
But my guess is it'sgoing to be in late June.

(59:36):
Other people feel differently,but that I'm, I'm pretty sure
it's going to be in late June.
So don't quote me on that, butI will, we'll see, I guess,

Emiliano Vera (59:48):
amen.
A woman in any of them.
I I'm a yeah, well, let's see.
What's going on.
Let's see what is going on by the timethis podcast comes out because who knows?
I am just very, very grateful in thismoment to Be really, it seems like

(01:00:13):
on the, on the right side of historylike fighting for adjust, cause
that looks like it's going to win.
Which is like not always a, it's areally weird, really weird spot to be in
sometimes when you usually see yourself,like on the losing side, lots of times.

(01:00:33):
And it's, it's cool to not just be, youknow, like treading water or, you know,
trying to swim upstream, but actuallygoing with the current of history.
So yeah.
Any other, any otherthoughts before we close up?

Herb Geraghty (01:00:49):
I don't think so.
I think I'm exhausted.
I think that I need a day or two, causeI really, we have been going nonstop
since this decision has come out.
And so I'm excited to see.
To take a break, to take a breath, tolook at a lot of the, the work that we've
put out to find all of the interviewsthat I did outside the court that I that
I haven't seen yet and compile them andto then just sort of get back to the work

(01:01:15):
that we, that we already have been doing.
I know you say you're workingon your article for life matters
journal and the Rehumanize blogs.
So hopefully that'll be out soonand I'm excited to see that.
I'm also just excited to, torecommit myself to the other issues.
I think that in these past few weeks,this news has been so huge and so abortion

(01:01:36):
has been front and center in my mind.
But during this time there's beenone execution and there has been
one scheduled execution that.
Today as of recording was stayed.
And so I think that, you know, this workof the consistent life ethic movement is
is ongoing and we don't really have timeto take a break or get distracted by just

(01:01:58):
one of these issues because you know,the rest of the world is still moving.
And there are, there's work to be doneon all of the many fronts that we that we
see as consistent life ethic activists.
And so my, my next step, and thenext thing I'm doing is I'm editing
an article about the death penalty.
'cause that's, that's the secondthing on my mind after abortion.

(01:02:19):
And then I'm sure there's going to besome horrible news about euthanasia or

Emiliano Vera (01:02:24):
and invite in Yemen.
Sorry.
Biden does reinvadedSomalia as well today, so,

Herb Geraghty (01:02:29):
okay.
I haven't been on Twitter and theflowers, so I didn't even know that.
And so I'm sure we're going tohave to respond to that ongoing
violence in Ukraine and NATOexpansion and all of these things
that we are deeply concerned about.
And so.
But it is nice to have

Emiliano Vera (01:02:45):
a win on like the thing that's just like the biggest numerically.

Herb Geraghty (01:02:48):
That's true.
It's very nice.
It's nice to have a wind period wheresee, you know, like you said, oh,
Biden invaded another country thatI didn't even hear about because I,

Emiliano Vera (01:02:58):
for all of the listeners who are not fans of
Trump, I, I, including me just yeah.
Point out that Biden reinvented acountry that Trump pulled out from.
So there is our little dose of late,late capitalist contradiction today.

Herb Geraghty (01:03:15):
Thank you, Emiliano.
So I think with that, I think it's clearthat we have a bunch of work to do so
we should sign off from the Rehumanizepodcast and then go get to that work.
Let's go do the work.
All right.
We're taking.
Take a nap and then do the work.
All right.
Thank you everyone for listening.

(01:03:54):
Peace.