July 23, 2025 • 31 mins
What does it mean to be an audacious leader? In this episode, Kevin talks with Anne Marie Anderson, who shares that she believes four things generally hold us back: time, money, inner critic, and fear. She introduces the idea of "making friends with fear," encouraging us to see fear not as an obstacle but as an invitation to grow. They also discuss building your front row, a trusted circle of people who challenge, support, and give honest feedback.
Listen For
00:00 Welcome and Episode Overview
00:38 Join Live Recordings on Social Media
01:15 Sponsor Message – Flexible Leadership Book
01:53 Introducing Anne Marie Anderson
03:25 Anne Marie’s Journey to Sports Broadcasting
04:56 Why She Wrote the Book “Cultivating Audacity”
06:09 Making Friends with Fear
08:28 The Fear of Being Judged
09:16 The Power of Building a “Front Row”
11:57 Front Row vs. Mentors
14:17 What Audacity Really Means
15:00 Audacity Isn’t Just for Extroverts
16:18 The Tragedy That Sparked Anne Marie’s Audacity
17:46 The Urgency Fallacy Explained
19:12 Urgent vs. Important – A Daily Discipline
20:07 Audacity in Leadership
21:36 What Anne Marie Loves About Broadcasting
22:05 Her Favorite Sport to Call
23:20 Common Misconceptions About Play-by-Play
24:48 Lessons Leaders Can Learn from Play-by-Play
25:10 Phil Jackson and Flexible Leadership
27:02 Final Thoughts on Practicing Audacity
27:35 What Anne Marie Does for Fun
28:36 What She’s Reading – “Good Awkward” by Henna Pryor
29:11 Where to Find Her and the Book
30:07 Final Thoughts and Call to Action
Anne's Story: Anne Marie Anderson is the author of Cultivating Audacity: Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win. She is a three-time Emmy Award-winning broadcaster, keynote speaker and author. As she walked through ESPN’s doors fresh out of college, Anne Marie embarked on a career that led her into the boardrooms and locker rooms of some of the most successful franchises in sports. Utilizing the methods observed through behind closed doors coverage of high-performing coaches, athletes and executives, Anderson applied their penchant for taking bold, sometimes surprising, risks to her own personal and professional life. The knowledge and experience she has gained making one intrepid career move after another led her to become one of the most experienced female play-by-play announcers in the country.
This Episode is brought to you by...
Flexible Leadership is every leader’s guide to greater success in a world of increasing complexity and chaos.
Book Recommendations
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
There is a time and a value in being brave
and being bold in being audacious.
We're talking todayabout what it looks like and means
for us to be audacious every day,starting right now.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leaderslike you grow personally
(00:31):
and professionallyto lead more effectively, make a bigger,
positive difference for their teams,organizations, and the world.
If you are listening to this podcast,
you could be live in the futurejoining us for future episodes.
Before they make it to the podcast onyour social favorite social media channel,
you can find out about whenthose are happening, who those guests are,
(00:52):
and get some other insidescoops on occasion.
By joining our LinkedInand or Facebook groups.
Two of the,
two of the channels where we live streamthese events.
You can go to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook
or remarkable podcast dot coms,LinkedIn to join in the fun there.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
(01:16):
Navigate uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way
and that our following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
That's right. Right.
Leaders need a new perspectiveand a fresh set of tools
to create the great resultstheir organizations and team members need.
(01:39):
That'swhat flexible leadership provides you.
You can learn more and order your copytoday at remarkable podcast.com/flexible.
And with thatI'm going to bring in my guest.
She comes to us.
There she is. I'm going to introduce her.
And then we're going to dive in.
Her name is Ann Marie Anderson.
She is a three timeEmmy Award winning broadcaster.
(02:00):
And if you're watching, you can seethose beautiful statuettes behind her.
She's a keynote speakerand author of the book
Cultivating Audacity,Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win.
She. As she walked through ESPN doorsfresh out of college,
she embarked on a career that led herinto the boardrooms and locker rooms
of some of the most successfulfranchises in sports, utilizing methods
(02:24):
observed through behind closed doorscoverage of high performing coaches,
athletes and executives.
She applied their ability for taking bold
and sometimes surprising risks to her ownpersonal professional life.
The knowledge and experienceshe gained has made one intrepid career
move after another, which led herto being one of the most experienced
(02:44):
female playby play announcers in the country.
Ann Marie, welcome.
I'm so glad that you're here.
Kevin. I'm delighted to be here.
I'm looking forward to the conversation.
So I've had World Series winning pitchers.
I've had Super Bowl winning linebackers,but I've I've had Grammy Award winners.
I've never had an Emmy Emmy Award winner.
(03:05):
And, so welcome. So glad to have you.
Thank you.
We're rounding it out,then. We're starting the round.
We're continuing to round it out.
Well, after for almost 500 episodes,I suppose we ought to have.
Hopefully we have a little bit of varietyfor folks.
Listen, I'm so glad that you're here.
We had a false start.
You were ill,and we were going to do this before,
so I've been looking forwardto our conversation.
(03:25):
I'd like to start by having you tell usjust a little bit more about that journey,
because I'm sure the folks who arelistening, who are sports fans, really?
Their ears perked up.
But even for those who aren't, I,I think you've got an interesting journey.
So just give us a little bit about sort ofwhat led you
from walking in the doorsat ESPN to us having this conversation.
(03:46):
Sure.
So at 21 years oldis when I was able to get
a six month temporary jobat ESPN, working six
at night to three in the morning, six daysa week, Mondays off for $15,000 a year.
Right?
That's the way we start.
And it was fantastic. And I just held on.
I mean, my 36 year, now as a broadcaster.
(04:10):
And I did what, you know, the work that isnecessary in order to climb the ladder.
I spent ten years, behind the scenesproducing,
cutting highlights, doing everything,hiring people as a camera operator
until I made the move infront of the camera, which was terrifying.
And that's when I learned to reallyembrace fear and shut out my inner critic.
(04:32):
And the last 25 years have been on camera
just to keep changing my careeras we have to role.
So now I'm a play by play announcer.
I have been a sideline reporterbefore and anchor and all that.
All right,so that's a little bit about the journey.
But that doesn't none of that storytells us the story of why there's a book.
(04:55):
Why the book then?
The book is because I come across
so many peopleespecially well, in two different groups.
Right.
There's the young peoplewho are just starting their careers,
and there's people about 45 to 55who want to be doing something else.
And the big question always is like,how do I get started?
(05:15):
What I don't understand how I get there,and you can't get there
until you figure outwhat's been in your way.
And so as throughout my careerand through coaching people,
I've learned there's generally speakingfour things that tend to be in our way.
It's either fear, time, money,or your inner critic.
Finally, I decided to write it in a bookwhere we break down each barrier, examine
(05:40):
kind of what we can do with it,because I don't believe Kevin in like,
pushing down your fearsor overcoming fears.
They're alreadythey're always going to be there.
So I'm interested in how we can usewhatever has been in our way in the past
to propel us forward.
You actually suggestthat we should make friends with our fear,
so why don't we talk about thatsince since you brought it up,
(06:02):
why don't we talk about that today? Well,what do you.
What do you mean by that?
And why would you make suchan audacious suggestion?
Well,because a lot of times we're told, like,
there's plenty of programsovercome your fears.
Well, how do you how do you do that?
That's not human nature.
Fear is there to serve a purpose.
Clear, inmy view, is an invitation to grow.
(06:23):
And so instead of using all this energyto shove it down
and push it away,I say make friends with it.
Meaning accept that it's going to be thereand get curious about it.
What is it that you're actually afraid of?
Catastrophizing.
What if all of that happens?
And I thought I was the only onethat use that word, by the way.
(06:43):
Catastrophizing.
Yeah.
Catastrophize the whole thing to the end,where you're going to die destitute
and alone and then think,is that really going to happen?
Well, the odds of that happeningare not very high right now.
There was a great book in the 80s.
I mean,
I don't really remembermuch about the book,
but the title was phenomenal.
Feel the Fear and Do It anyway, which isanother way of saying what you're saying.
(07:04):
I believe that was woman'sname was Susan Jeffers.
Someone will probably correct meif I'm wrong.
But I've always loved that title.
And you're saying the same thing.
Like we're not trying to suppress it.Remove it.
We're trying to acknowledge it and say,how does it serve me?
Right? Yes, yes, that's the key.
Not just recognizing it, but how doesit serve me and how has it hindered me?
(07:26):
So as an example,like my first time going on air
had already been at ESPN for ten years.
I was terrified going on air,that I was going to be bad,
that I was going to be embarrassed,that I was going to be judged.
You know, all of that.And of course, all that happened.
You're never good on televisionyour first time.
We never good at anything.
Never. I'm riding your bike. Nothing.
(07:47):
And so it's about okay, allthose things happened and what happened.
I got data to get better the next time.
If I just wallowed in the fear,I would have no opportunity to learn.
What was I embarrassed about?What was I judged?
How did I think I failed in certain thingsto be able to get up there the next time
and try it again?
(08:08):
So there are some of us,
and I'm speaking to youas everybody, as leaders,
some of us as leaders, have this challengethat I'm about to mention.
And all of you likely have peopleon your team who have this same challenge.
Like you said, you were afraid of
whether you would fail,that you would just do poorly.
(08:29):
And then the last one, which is whereI'm headed, just being judged.
And so, as I said, some all of us havea little bit of fear around being judged.
For some of us, it's a big deal.
And again, as leaders,for some of your folks, it's a big deal.
And so especially if it's not for you,you really need to hear
what we're going to talk about.
So Anne-Marie,what advice do you have to people
(08:51):
specifically aroundthat fear of being judged by others?
The the
key advice here is building a front row
and a front row are peoplewhose advice matters to you, who are doing
big things on their own, who will help yougrow and challenge you and lift you up.
The reason you need that front rowis for the other people that judge you.
(09:15):
They don't get a vote.
Laura Gassner Orting.
In her book limitless, said,
why give a voice to somebodywho shouldn't even have a vote?
And that's true.
Like if the other people judgingyou aren't part of this
front row that you've createdto drive yourself forward,
then that's just noise because you'reworking on you and going forward.
(09:36):
So be careful.
Once you create your front row,
cut out the noise of the other peopleand just focus on the feedback
you're getting.
Yeah, the only thing I would say to that.
So yeah, like any of us
that do anything where we have the chanceto be seen by a lot of people,
there's a chance that you're going to get
all sorts of feedback,and some of it will not really fall
in line with anything else. Right.
(09:58):
And so, like I often say,like if I've gone and given a,
a session
to a bunch of leadersand there's someone in the room,
who's a plumber,no disrespect to plumbers.
And their feedback to meis not really all that great.
It's not it's not relevant.It's just not right now.
Plumber or no.
If I hear that same feedback
45 times at some point,I need to take a take note of that.
(10:20):
And you're not saying not to do that,but what you're saying is that
that front row, those folks that you know,have your best intention
that they their best intention is onyou being successful.
That's that you want toyou want to always value that and know
that they're going to be honest with you
and know that theythey do want the very best for you.
And having those folks in your lifethat you're that you're willing
(10:42):
that that you will ask and they willwillingly share super valuable.
How do wehow do we determine who those people are?
Because it's not necessarilyjust the people closest to us.
Right.
Like so say a little bit moreabout determining who's on your front row.
I'll tell you firstwho's not in your front row.
It's probably not your mom.
It's probably not your best friend. Right.
(11:03):
Because they want you to be safe.
Your front row isn't a bunch of peoplewho are going to tell you you're great.
It shouldn't be.
It needs to be peoplewho are going to tell you the truth.
So the first thing I look
for when I'm building a front rowis somebody who's doing big things
in their own life as well, doesn'thave to be in the same arena as me,
but somebody who's working to growand get feedback coming back.
(11:26):
Because remember, as you're talking about,oh, if you hear it
45 times from outside,you can bring that to your front row
and say to them, here'ssomething I'm getting.
How do I work with this?
So your front row needs to be peoplethat are going to tell you the truth,
that are going to lift you up,that are doing big things on their own.
And when you ask themto be in your front row,
(11:50):
listen to how they respondbecause you're giving somebody a role
in your life, there's a social connectionthere and a significance
and be aware of what they're barriersmay be,
because we're all seeing thingsthrough our prism.
So if they're afraid of riskand you're trying to take some risks,
they can be a great friendto you, a great colleague,
but maybe they don't belong in your frontrow because of their bias against risk.
(12:14):
Yeah.
And again, that doesn't mean they're notin your life hasn't been their friend.
It just means you're identifying,
basically a set of expectations for,for a group of people
that can really serve you effectivelyand being careful
about whothose people are really important.
And as a leader, by the way, it's probablynot two people on your team either.
It's not mom, it's not your best friends.
(12:35):
Probably not the people on your team, atleast not in general, because, you know,
positional power is is a thing,that's for sure.
Kevin. I'm sorry.
It can be a leaderat another corporation or company
who has the same ideaof what you're going through.
And your front row can be 3 or 4 people.
It doesn't need to bethis big mass of people.
(12:57):
So you're exactly right.
It isn't somebody in your team.
It's somebody whounderstands your challenges.
Yeah, I love that.
Which means so.
So how how would you sayor would you say then.
I mean, I know the phrase the front rowof course applies to your work in sports.
Is it different than a team of mentors?
(13:17):
Yes it is. In what ways?
Mentors?
Mentorshipa lot of times is one way. Right?
They are helping you,but you're not necessarily offering
value back to themjust by the hierarchy of mentorship.
Front row works bestwhen it is reciprocal.
When you are working with somebody elseor a group of people
(13:38):
to help elevate each other.
And that's the difference for mebetween the front row and mentorship,
because you learnby hearing their challenges,
by trying to help them work through,by being inspired by them
getting back up again after they havefailed or been knocked down.
So the
the key word in my introto our conversation,
audacity is the keyword in the bookCultivating Audacity.
(14:02):
That's who we're talking to today isthe author of that book, Marie Anderson.
And so I'm curious
about that word audacity because like,okay, I don't know you, right?
We've we've now been interacting
for about 25 minutes,about 15 of which have been on the show.
And but I know, I know something about youbecause I read the book.
But that's what I got.
(14:23):
And I wouldn't even have to read the bookto watch you and and
and to place myself in the position
of someone in the audience and say, well,easy for her to be audacious.
I mean, you can tell thatshe's got this outgoing personality.
You can tell she's kind of vivacious.
That's the audacity seemed,it would seem to be.
That's like part of who she is.
(14:44):
That's not me.
And Marie.
I'm not bold and I'm not brave.
So talk to us about audacityin the context
of how people might seethemselves in relationship to that word.
Audacity and
extrovert are two very different ideas.
(15:05):
It's funny that you say thatbecause yes, I talk on television,
so I'm used to being on cameraand it's out here.
If we're at a party, I'm in the corner.
So I actually am an introvert,so, you know, but I have forced myself
and learned to be more outgoingand more bold, if you will.
I was not.
Situationally.
I don't mean to interrupt you, butI'm going to interrupt you anyway, right?
(15:26):
Right. So that's the thingI want to say to all of you.
Everybody is that,
extroversion and introversion.
Just if we're going to use thatframe is, is a
I would call it a flexor.
In other words,you're not only one or the other.
You're somewhere between them.And you can choose.
You have a tendency, but you can choosesituationally to move to a new place.
(15:47):
And you can and you can pick
a new place on that spectrumto be at any given time.
So I needed to get that in there becauseyou're so right and that's so important.
So can now continue.
Yes. And please,you can always interrupt me.
We're having a conversation.
I'm good with it because it is for me.
I had to take calculated, bold risks.
(16:09):
And how do you talk yourself into that?
Part of it is catastrophizingwhat you and I have talked about.
Like what is the very worstthat could happen?
And part of it is what happens if I don't?
One thing that I am good at is understanding that I don't want to have regrets,
and that came as a
result of a tragedy at workwhen I was only 23 years old
(16:31):
at ESPN, where a colleague of minefor whom I had interned.
Yeah, since the introduction and hardwork, he had just gotten his dream job,
just gotten married, 37 yearsold, that dream job, life going great.
And on his sixth day at work, before he'd
even anchored Sports Center,he was still training.
He collapsed and died.
And as I was performingCPR on him, unsuccessfully,
(16:54):
I kind of came to the realizationI was 23 years old, that if you can be 37
and newly marriedand starting your dream job
and have it ripped away in a momentthat I was never going
to wait for anything again,that was life changing for me.
And that's where my audacityjourney began.
You don't need a tragedy to get you there.
(17:16):
For me,that was the moment of me realizing
I don't know how much time,and so I don't want to have regrets.
I want to try everythingand anything and see what lands. So.
So sinceyou bring that up, let's talk about
you talk in the book about whatyou call the the urgency fallacy.
And so you just talked about,hey, I'm not I'm going to push forward
(17:39):
and all that sort of thing.
And yet there is a fallacy around urgency.
So talk about that sort of the balancingback what you just said just a little bit.
Yeah.
I think that we have a couple of thingsgoing on.
One, our lives are so urgentnow that we are attached
to a phone,it feels as if everything is urgent.
We get a text, we get an email,we get a request for something,
(18:00):
and it feels likewe have to answer that right away
because we're availableand everybody knows we have it.
What happens is our lives can becompletely consumed by urgent tasks.
So what I ask people to do is separatethings
that are urgent fromthose that are important.
And here's how you can tell.
Things that are urgentare usually a response to a request.
(18:21):
Somebody asks you,hey, can you get me that report?
Can you answer my text?Can you answer my email?
They usually have a deadline.
I need it by this time.
And they usually, if it's urgent,
can be completed pretty quicklywith the sense of accomplishment.
That's what the to do listis, right where we take it off.
Things that are important requiremore time and consideration,
(18:43):
and they move us closer to our values,vision, goals, and who we want to be.
If we don't create space,intentional space
to do what's important,urgent will consume our day.
And then we put it off till tomorrow.
So I recommend at least an hour a day
of doing what's importantthat will move you forward.
And most of usdon't have an hour continuously,
(19:06):
so chunk it up if you need to, whereeverything shuts down because that email
that's urgent can wait 15 minutes.
It's something we can wait toand we can like.
Chances are,
hopefully you're not doing thatwhile you're listening to us,
because if you are, you're not servingeither the email response,
the person to respond to youor or the show very, very well.
(19:26):
Actually.
So, yeah, we couldyou and I could talk about that.
We are on the same boat on all that.And here's the thing.
If you want to have that hour,however, you have to lock it up.
You need to put it on the calendarand then hold it dear.
You can't let it go again.
It's got to stay in the calendar.
So talk about audacity.
And so far we've really talked about it.
Anne-Marie,from the from a personal perspective,
(19:49):
which I wanted us to start with.
And you certainly talkedabout that in the book,
but obviously people that arehere are wearing two hats.
They're wearing the hat of I'm a human.
They're also wearing the head of I'ma leader.
So what thoughts would you haveabout leadership, audacity or what?
How do we need to think about audacityin our role as a leader?
When I speak to corporateaudiences, businesses, firms,
(20:13):
I talk about being a shapeshifting leader,
because in my decades in the boardroomsand locker rooms
of some of the most successfulfranchises in sport,
the thing that I saw amongst the eliteleaders was a willingness to take risks.
And that's what audacity is.
It's a willingness to take bold risks.
They're not so attached to the outcome.
Great leaders are not so attachedto the outcome.
(20:36):
They know that the audacity,the win in audacity is in the action.
And so as a leader,when you can inspire your people
to take action without fear
of massive repercussions of failure,then you can start to build
a more audacious culture.
And to do that, you got to be a shapeshifting leader and know each person's. Yes.
(21:00):
Excellent.
So I can't have you on,
and not talk a little bit about your
your work, because I thinkthat even for folks who aren't,
big sports fans, I thinkwhenever I get the chance to sort of
talk to people who are in, in rolesthat people recognize and, you know,
they sort of see them at a distance.
(21:22):
I think it's always usefuland interesting to have that conversation.
So what what is the best partat this point in your career?
You've talked about the various thingsyou've done in sports
broadcasting,but as a play by play person,
what's the best part of the job?
The best part of the job for meis seeing people
push themselves to be elite.
(21:44):
I love watching people
and their bodiesdo things that they've trained for.
And then when the lights are on,it goes, well.
I see a lot of people crushingto, but boy, when they
when it works for them, I don't carewhat sport it is.
I get so excitedseeing athletes reach a new level.
(22:07):
Favorite sport to announce?
Oh, I love them.
All of my aunts.
I played volleyball, so that one.
I mean, it's an unfair question to askbecause someone's got this and say,
well, we're not going to give her that gigbecause it's not our favorite.
Oh yeah. Yeah.
But I love all of it because again,I work with an analyst in any sport.
Right.
So I get to work with, you know, afive time Olympic medalist, water polo
(22:29):
player, a WNBA champion, a, Bill Waltonwas a partner of mine before he passed.
There's a whole there's a set of stories.
I'm sure you have of.
Stories with Bill Walton,but God rest his soul, he was awesome.
So I love the partnership that I have,where
I can be the viewer and ask the questions.
The viewer wants to know,how did that happen?
(22:51):
Why did that happen?
How can they stop that from happeningagain?
That's my job as a play by play.
I had this conversation with my wifeall the time.
You watch a movie,you watch a television show,
and you know that half of what's happeningin whatever profession
it is isn't actuallywhat actually happens, right?
Like that would never happen.
(23:11):
What's what's whatare a couple of the biggest misconceptions
that we might collectively have about
doing play by playor doing doing live sports?
That it's easy.
So many people say all the time,I can do that, and they get up there,
or if they get the opportunityand they just talk over it.
And here's the biggest misconceptionthe really good play by play announcer.
(23:36):
It's not about them.
You may not even know their names.
It's about the athletesand it's about setting up the analyst.
And I think too many times people,especially for the play by play role,
they think, oh, I can do that.
And it's about them and not the audience.
And so it requires work and preparation.
I don't get up there and wing it.
(23:57):
There is a misconception for you.
People think, oh,I get up there and wing it.
No, there's daysand days of preparation for each event.
I know everybody's backgroundand everybody's
skills, everybody's past injuries.
It's prep how to.
Pronounce their names,which name is which number,
and a hundredother things like that. Right.
I have sat across the aisle, on airplanesmany times with folks who were,
(24:23):
living in Indianapoliswho were coming to do a Colts game.
And, you know,
the books are out and the whole flight,all they're doing is studying.
Oh, yeah.
And not that's just one example.
I can think of several,but it's like anything else.
You and I are having this conversationbefore we started.
About preparation for this. Right.
And when we, when we arriveready, we're we're better.
(24:44):
We have a better chanceof being successful.
And I think there are two thingsthat you just said
that I would hopeall of you as leaders would take. One.
Is that that preparation piece?
Yeah.
The other piece is there'san awful just like
there are play by play folkswho talk too much.
There are a lot of leadersthat talk too much as well.
So you could go back.
Everybodyjust listen to that short little snippet,
(25:06):
and and take out play by play announcerand put in leader.
And it would allwe should be trying to set up our team.
Just like in Reesetrying to set up her analyst.
You know, Kevin, I really love thatyour book is called Flexible Leadership.
Right?Because that's a huge part of it too.
And that's another partthat I had seen amongst the best leaders.
(25:27):
You know, there it isbeautiful and such an important point.
And you know, if anybody watchedI don't know if you're a sports fan,
if you watched The Last Danceduring Covid about the Bulls final season,
you really got an idea of how PhilJackson was a shape shifting leader
and allowing Dennis Rodman to go to Vegasin the middle of the season,
(25:48):
but never would allow thatfor Michael Jordan
because, as he put it, DennisRodman doesn't need basketball.
He didn't need it.
It wasn't his identity,but they needed Rodman in order to win.
So he had to dowhat was needed to keep Rodman engaged.
Michael Jordan,his whole identity was basketball,
so he's not going to send him off
for a weekend in Vegasbecause his needs were different.
(26:10):
Flexible leadership.
I can't wait to read your bookbecause flexible leadership
and a shapeshiftingleader tie together so well,
so energy.
There's a lot of stuff we talked about,and if this wasn't on a recording
and I could just talk to you about sports,we would do that.
But I know that
that's not the purpose of this show,nor what best serves our audience.
But I am curious if there's aif there's something that I didn't ask
(26:34):
that you thought I mightor wish I would have asked.
I think the only thing I would wantyou're so prepared, which is beautiful.
I think the thing that I would want peopleto know that are listening
is that going back to that one point,this is an innate trait.
You have to learn and challenge yourselfand practice being audacious.
(26:55):
It isn't something that just comesnaturally, not skilled audacity,
because there are reckless risksand there are risks that are worth it.
And that's a very important partof cultivating audacity in your life.
Writing that that there are recklessrisks, everybody,
and there are risks worth taking.
(27:16):
I hope that there have been multiple timesduring the show that something that
that Andrea has said, thatthat stopped you in your tracks.
You have the advantage,everybody of hitting the pause button.
I don't I have to do it in real time.
So I want to know.
Anne-Marie,it's clear that you love your work.
But life is more than work.
What do you do for fun?
(27:37):
I do any sport possible,
I play golf, I play volleyball,I spend a lot of time.
I have three kids who are now growing up,and I take them with me
when we talk about, like,how much I love my work, the assignment
I must spend the rest of my day on afterthis is preparing to go overseas
to call international volleyballcompetition.
(27:59):
And part of my agreement with this companyis that I get to bring my children.
And so when you ask what I do for fun,part of
it is being able to expose themto different parts of the world.
So they'll come with meand see international competition in Rio,
Istanbul, China, Poland, the Netherlands,everywhere I'm going this summer
and then get to experience the cultureand see how life is different
(28:21):
in different parts of the worldand how similar we are as well.
And both of those things are true.
So what are you reading these days?
Maybe.
Maybe there won't be a lot of bookswith you on the trip, I don't know,
or maybe a lobby on the Kindle,but what are you reading right now?
I am reading Good Awkward by
Hannah Pryor, Hannah's book.
(28:44):
First of all, it's so well-written,and it's it's a lot of fun.
And she's talking about workingthrough the moments where we felt
kind of awkward,or we feel awkward in addressing
a group or handling a problem,and her tips to work with it.
I really am enjoyinggood Awkward by Hannah Pryor.
And sounds like there's a connectionto making for your friend.
(29:05):
I'm just going to bet on that.
Where can we learn more about your workand where you get the book?
Like where do you want to point peoplebefore we wrap up?
Sure.
If you're interested in the book,you can get the first chapter free.
Cultivating audacity.com,
and there's exercises in there you cando, it's going to be out on audible soon.
(29:26):
And then if you want to potentially workwith me,
you can find me at Ann-Marie anderson.com.
I answer all of those messages myself.
So that's Anderson with an oneverybody and Marie and with an E.
And with me Marie.
As Bill Walton said when we first met,he said, Amory, I'm Bill with two L's.
And I said, and with the nameMarie Bill, nice to meet you.
(29:50):
After we end, I'm going to have to aska Bill Walton question.
But anyway, everybody, before we go
and before I say goodbyeto Ann Marie, a question for all of you.
If you've been here before,you know the question.
I'm not apologizing for that.
The question is, now what?
What are you going to doas a result of this?
Maybe you're going to think differently
about that word audacityand how it applies to you.
(30:12):
Maybe you're going to think differentlyabout risks.
Maybe you're going to think differently,in a lot of different ways.
But I want you to do more than just saythat that was a good idea.
But I really want you to dois to take action.
And and I'm not here to prescribewhat that action should be for you,
but rather to encourage you to do that,because until you act on something
(30:32):
that you learned here, this is maybea little better than entertainment,
but until you take action on it,then it becomes really valuable.
I hope that you'll do exactly that.
And Marie, thanks for being here.
It's a pleasure to have you.
Wonderful talking with you and everybody.
If you liked this and this was your firsttime, make sure it's not your last.
(30:54):
And if you've already been here before,make sure you're subscribed
wherever you're listening to this podcastso you don't miss any future episodes.
We'll be back next week
with another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Thanks everybody.
There is a time and a value in being brave
and being bold in being audacious.
We're talking todayabout what it looks like and means
for us to be audacious every day,starting right now.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leaderslike you grow personally
(00:31):
and professionallyto lead more effectively, make a bigger,
positive difference for their teams,organizations, and the world.
If you are listening to this podcast,
you could be live in the futurejoining us for future episodes.
Before they make it to the podcast onyour social favorite social media channel,
you can find out about whenthose are happening, who those guests are,
(00:52):
and get some other insidescoops on occasion.
By joining our LinkedInand or Facebook groups.
Two of the,
two of the channels where we live streamthese events.
You can go to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook
or remarkable podcast dot coms,LinkedIn to join in the fun there.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
(01:16):
Navigate uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way
and that our following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
That's right. Right.
Leaders need a new perspectiveand a fresh set of tools
to create the great resultstheir organizations and team members need.
(01:39):
That'swhat flexible leadership provides you.
You can learn more and order your copytoday at remarkable podcast.com/flexible.
And with thatI'm going to bring in my guest.
She comes to us.
There she is. I'm going to introduce her.
And then we're going to dive in.
Her name is Ann Marie Anderson.
She is a three timeEmmy Award winning broadcaster.
(02:00):
And if you're watching, you can seethose beautiful statuettes behind her.
She's a keynote speakerand author of the book
Cultivating Audacity,Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win.
She. As she walked through ESPN doorsfresh out of college,
she embarked on a career that led herinto the boardrooms and locker rooms
of some of the most successfulfranchises in sports, utilizing methods
(02:24):
observed through behind closed doorscoverage of high performing coaches,
athletes and executives.
She applied their ability for taking bold
and sometimes surprising risks to her ownpersonal professional life.
The knowledge and experienceshe gained has made one intrepid career
move after another, which led herto being one of the most experienced
(02:44):
female playby play announcers in the country.
Ann Marie, welcome.
I'm so glad that you're here.
Kevin. I'm delighted to be here.
I'm looking forward to the conversation.
So I've had World Series winning pitchers.
I've had Super Bowl winning linebackers,but I've I've had Grammy Award winners.
I've never had an Emmy Emmy Award winner.
(03:05):
And, so welcome. So glad to have you.
Thank you.
We're rounding it out,then. We're starting the round.
We're continuing to round it out.
Well, after for almost 500 episodes,I suppose we ought to have.
Hopefully we have a little bit of varietyfor folks.
Listen, I'm so glad that you're here.
We had a false start.
You were ill,and we were going to do this before,
so I've been looking forwardto our conversation.
(03:25):
I'd like to start by having you tell usjust a little bit more about that journey,
because I'm sure the folks who arelistening, who are sports fans, really?
Their ears perked up.
But even for those who aren't, I,I think you've got an interesting journey.
So just give us a little bit about sort ofwhat led you
from walking in the doorsat ESPN to us having this conversation.
(03:46):
Sure.
So at 21 years oldis when I was able to get
a six month temporary jobat ESPN, working six
at night to three in the morning, six daysa week, Mondays off for $15,000 a year.
Right?
That's the way we start.
And it was fantastic. And I just held on.
I mean, my 36 year, now as a broadcaster.
(04:10):
And I did what, you know, the work that isnecessary in order to climb the ladder.
I spent ten years, behind the scenesproducing,
cutting highlights, doing everything,hiring people as a camera operator
until I made the move infront of the camera, which was terrifying.
And that's when I learned to reallyembrace fear and shut out my inner critic.
(04:32):
And the last 25 years have been on camera
just to keep changing my careeras we have to role.
So now I'm a play by play announcer.
I have been a sideline reporterbefore and anchor and all that.
All right,so that's a little bit about the journey.
But that doesn't none of that storytells us the story of why there's a book.
(04:55):
Why the book then?
The book is because I come across
so many peopleespecially well, in two different groups.
Right.
There's the young peoplewho are just starting their careers,
and there's people about 45 to 55who want to be doing something else.
And the big question always is like,how do I get started?
(05:15):
What I don't understand how I get there,and you can't get there
until you figure outwhat's been in your way.
And so as throughout my careerand through coaching people,
I've learned there's generally speakingfour things that tend to be in our way.
It's either fear, time, money,or your inner critic.
Finally, I decided to write it in a bookwhere we break down each barrier, examine
(05:40):
kind of what we can do with it,because I don't believe Kevin in like,
pushing down your fearsor overcoming fears.
They're alreadythey're always going to be there.
So I'm interested in how we can usewhatever has been in our way in the past
to propel us forward.
You actually suggestthat we should make friends with our fear,
so why don't we talk about thatsince since you brought it up,
(06:02):
why don't we talk about that today? Well,what do you.
What do you mean by that?
And why would you make suchan audacious suggestion?
Well,because a lot of times we're told, like,
there's plenty of programsovercome your fears.
Well, how do you how do you do that?
That's not human nature.
Fear is there to serve a purpose.
Clear, inmy view, is an invitation to grow.
(06:23):
And so instead of using all this energyto shove it down
and push it away,I say make friends with it.
Meaning accept that it's going to be thereand get curious about it.
What is it that you're actually afraid of?
Catastrophizing.
What if all of that happens?
And I thought I was the only onethat use that word, by the way.
(06:43):
Catastrophizing.
Yeah.
Catastrophize the whole thing to the end,where you're going to die destitute
and alone and then think,is that really going to happen?
Well, the odds of that happeningare not very high right now.
There was a great book in the 80s.
I mean,
I don't really remembermuch about the book,
but the title was phenomenal.
Feel the Fear and Do It anyway, which isanother way of saying what you're saying.
(07:04):
I believe that was woman'sname was Susan Jeffers.
Someone will probably correct meif I'm wrong.
But I've always loved that title.
And you're saying the same thing.
Like we're not trying to suppress it.Remove it.
We're trying to acknowledge it and say,how does it serve me?
Right? Yes, yes, that's the key.
Not just recognizing it, but how doesit serve me and how has it hindered me?
(07:26):
So as an example,like my first time going on air
had already been at ESPN for ten years.
I was terrified going on air,that I was going to be bad,
that I was going to be embarrassed,that I was going to be judged.
You know, all of that.And of course, all that happened.
You're never good on televisionyour first time.
We never good at anything.
Never. I'm riding your bike. Nothing.
(07:47):
And so it's about okay, allthose things happened and what happened.
I got data to get better the next time.
If I just wallowed in the fear,I would have no opportunity to learn.
What was I embarrassed about?What was I judged?
How did I think I failed in certain thingsto be able to get up there the next time
and try it again?
(08:08):
So there are some of us,
and I'm speaking to youas everybody, as leaders,
some of us as leaders, have this challengethat I'm about to mention.
And all of you likely have peopleon your team who have this same challenge.
Like you said, you were afraid of
whether you would fail,that you would just do poorly.
(08:29):
And then the last one, which is whereI'm headed, just being judged.
And so, as I said, some all of us havea little bit of fear around being judged.
For some of us, it's a big deal.
And again, as leaders,for some of your folks, it's a big deal.
And so especially if it's not for you,you really need to hear
what we're going to talk about.
So Anne-Marie,what advice do you have to people
(08:51):
specifically aroundthat fear of being judged by others?
The the
key advice here is building a front row
and a front row are peoplewhose advice matters to you, who are doing
big things on their own, who will help yougrow and challenge you and lift you up.
The reason you need that front rowis for the other people that judge you.
(09:15):
They don't get a vote.
Laura Gassner Orting.
In her book limitless, said,
why give a voice to somebodywho shouldn't even have a vote?
And that's true.
Like if the other people judgingyou aren't part of this
front row that you've createdto drive yourself forward,
then that's just noise because you'reworking on you and going forward.
(09:36):
So be careful.
Once you create your front row,
cut out the noise of the other peopleand just focus on the feedback
you're getting.
Yeah, the only thing I would say to that.
So yeah, like any of us
that do anything where we have the chanceto be seen by a lot of people,
there's a chance that you're going to get
all sorts of feedback,and some of it will not really fall
in line with anything else. Right.
(09:58):
And so, like I often say,like if I've gone and given a,
a session
to a bunch of leadersand there's someone in the room,
who's a plumber,no disrespect to plumbers.
And their feedback to meis not really all that great.
It's not it's not relevant.It's just not right now.
Plumber or no.
If I hear that same feedback
45 times at some point,I need to take a take note of that.
(10:20):
And you're not saying not to do that,but what you're saying is that
that front row, those folks that you know,have your best intention
that they their best intention is onyou being successful.
That's that you want toyou want to always value that and know
that they're going to be honest with you
and know that theythey do want the very best for you.
And having those folks in your lifethat you're that you're willing
(10:42):
that that you will ask and they willwillingly share super valuable.
How do wehow do we determine who those people are?
Because it's not necessarilyjust the people closest to us.
Right.
Like so say a little bit moreabout determining who's on your front row.
I'll tell you firstwho's not in your front row.
It's probably not your mom.
It's probably not your best friend. Right.
(11:03):
Because they want you to be safe.
Your front row isn't a bunch of peoplewho are going to tell you you're great.
It shouldn't be.
It needs to be peoplewho are going to tell you the truth.
So the first thing I look
for when I'm building a front rowis somebody who's doing big things
in their own life as well, doesn'thave to be in the same arena as me,
but somebody who's working to growand get feedback coming back.
(11:26):
Because remember, as you're talking about,oh, if you hear it
45 times from outside,you can bring that to your front row
and say to them, here'ssomething I'm getting.
How do I work with this?
So your front row needs to be peoplethat are going to tell you the truth,
that are going to lift you up,that are doing big things on their own.
And when you ask themto be in your front row,
(11:50):
listen to how they respondbecause you're giving somebody a role
in your life, there's a social connectionthere and a significance
and be aware of what they're barriersmay be,
because we're all seeing thingsthrough our prism.
So if they're afraid of riskand you're trying to take some risks,
they can be a great friendto you, a great colleague,
but maybe they don't belong in your frontrow because of their bias against risk.
(12:14):
Yeah.
And again, that doesn't mean they're notin your life hasn't been their friend.
It just means you're identifying,
basically a set of expectations for,for a group of people
that can really serve you effectivelyand being careful
about whothose people are really important.
And as a leader, by the way, it's probablynot two people on your team either.
It's not mom, it's not your best friends.
(12:35):
Probably not the people on your team, atleast not in general, because, you know,
positional power is is a thing,that's for sure.
Kevin. I'm sorry.
It can be a leaderat another corporation or company
who has the same ideaof what you're going through.
And your front row can be 3 or 4 people.
It doesn't need to bethis big mass of people.
(12:57):
So you're exactly right.
It isn't somebody in your team.
It's somebody whounderstands your challenges.
Yeah, I love that.
Which means so.
So how how would you sayor would you say then.
I mean, I know the phrase the front rowof course applies to your work in sports.
Is it different than a team of mentors?
(13:17):
Yes it is. In what ways?
Mentors?
Mentorshipa lot of times is one way. Right?
They are helping you,but you're not necessarily offering
value back to themjust by the hierarchy of mentorship.
Front row works bestwhen it is reciprocal.
When you are working with somebody elseor a group of people
(13:38):
to help elevate each other.
And that's the difference for mebetween the front row and mentorship,
because you learnby hearing their challenges,
by trying to help them work through,by being inspired by them
getting back up again after they havefailed or been knocked down.
So the
the key word in my introto our conversation,
audacity is the keyword in the bookCultivating Audacity.
(14:02):
That's who we're talking to today isthe author of that book, Marie Anderson.
And so I'm curious
about that word audacity because like,okay, I don't know you, right?
We've we've now been interacting
for about 25 minutes,about 15 of which have been on the show.
And but I know, I know something about youbecause I read the book.
But that's what I got.
(14:23):
And I wouldn't even have to read the bookto watch you and and
and to place myself in the position
of someone in the audience and say, well,easy for her to be audacious.
I mean, you can tell thatshe's got this outgoing personality.
You can tell she's kind of vivacious.
That's the audacity seemed,it would seem to be.
That's like part of who she is.
(14:44):
That's not me.
And Marie.
I'm not bold and I'm not brave.
So talk to us about audacityin the context
of how people might seethemselves in relationship to that word.
Audacity and
extrovert are two very different ideas.
(15:05):
It's funny that you say thatbecause yes, I talk on television,
so I'm used to being on cameraand it's out here.
If we're at a party, I'm in the corner.
So I actually am an introvert,so, you know, but I have forced myself
and learned to be more outgoingand more bold, if you will.
I was not.
Situationally.
I don't mean to interrupt you, butI'm going to interrupt you anyway, right?
(15:26):
Right. So that's the thingI want to say to all of you.
Everybody is that,
extroversion and introversion.
Just if we're going to use thatframe is, is a
I would call it a flexor.
In other words,you're not only one or the other.
You're somewhere between them.And you can choose.
You have a tendency, but you can choosesituationally to move to a new place.
(15:47):
And you can and you can pick
a new place on that spectrumto be at any given time.
So I needed to get that in there becauseyou're so right and that's so important.
So can now continue.
Yes. And please,you can always interrupt me.
We're having a conversation.
I'm good with it because it is for me.
I had to take calculated, bold risks.
(16:09):
And how do you talk yourself into that?
Part of it is catastrophizingwhat you and I have talked about.
Like what is the very worstthat could happen?
And part of it is what happens if I don't?
One thing that I am good at is understanding that I don't want to have regrets,
and that came as a
result of a tragedy at workwhen I was only 23 years old
(16:31):
at ESPN, where a colleague of minefor whom I had interned.
Yeah, since the introduction and hardwork, he had just gotten his dream job,
just gotten married, 37 yearsold, that dream job, life going great.
And on his sixth day at work, before he'd
even anchored Sports Center,he was still training.
He collapsed and died.
And as I was performingCPR on him, unsuccessfully,
(16:54):
I kind of came to the realizationI was 23 years old, that if you can be 37
and newly marriedand starting your dream job
and have it ripped away in a momentthat I was never going
to wait for anything again,that was life changing for me.
And that's where my audacityjourney began.
You don't need a tragedy to get you there.
(17:16):
For me,that was the moment of me realizing
I don't know how much time,and so I don't want to have regrets.
I want to try everythingand anything and see what lands. So.
So sinceyou bring that up, let's talk about
you talk in the book about whatyou call the the urgency fallacy.
And so you just talked about,hey, I'm not I'm going to push forward
(17:39):
and all that sort of thing.
And yet there is a fallacy around urgency.
So talk about that sort of the balancingback what you just said just a little bit.
Yeah.
I think that we have a couple of thingsgoing on.
One, our lives are so urgentnow that we are attached
to a phone,it feels as if everything is urgent.
We get a text, we get an email,we get a request for something,
(18:00):
and it feels likewe have to answer that right away
because we're availableand everybody knows we have it.
What happens is our lives can becompletely consumed by urgent tasks.
So what I ask people to do is separatethings
that are urgent fromthose that are important.
And here's how you can tell.
Things that are urgentare usually a response to a request.
(18:21):
Somebody asks you,hey, can you get me that report?
Can you answer my text?Can you answer my email?
They usually have a deadline.
I need it by this time.
And they usually, if it's urgent,
can be completed pretty quicklywith the sense of accomplishment.
That's what the to do listis, right where we take it off.
Things that are important requiremore time and consideration,
(18:43):
and they move us closer to our values,vision, goals, and who we want to be.
If we don't create space,intentional space
to do what's important,urgent will consume our day.
And then we put it off till tomorrow.
So I recommend at least an hour a day
of doing what's importantthat will move you forward.
And most of usdon't have an hour continuously,
(19:06):
so chunk it up if you need to, whereeverything shuts down because that email
that's urgent can wait 15 minutes.
It's something we can wait toand we can like.
Chances are,
hopefully you're not doing thatwhile you're listening to us,
because if you are, you're not servingeither the email response,
the person to respond to youor or the show very, very well.
(19:26):
Actually.
So, yeah, we couldyou and I could talk about that.
We are on the same boat on all that.And here's the thing.
If you want to have that hour,however, you have to lock it up.
You need to put it on the calendarand then hold it dear.
You can't let it go again.
It's got to stay in the calendar.
So talk about audacity.
And so far we've really talked about it.
Anne-Marie,from the from a personal perspective,
(19:49):
which I wanted us to start with.
And you certainly talkedabout that in the book,
but obviously people that arehere are wearing two hats.
They're wearing the hat of I'm a human.
They're also wearing the head of I'ma leader.
So what thoughts would you haveabout leadership, audacity or what?
How do we need to think about audacityin our role as a leader?
When I speak to corporateaudiences, businesses, firms,
(20:13):
I talk about being a shapeshifting leader,
because in my decades in the boardroomsand locker rooms
of some of the most successfulfranchises in sport,
the thing that I saw amongst the eliteleaders was a willingness to take risks.
And that's what audacity is.
It's a willingness to take bold risks.
They're not so attached to the outcome.
Great leaders are not so attachedto the outcome.
(20:36):
They know that the audacity,the win in audacity is in the action.
And so as a leader,when you can inspire your people
to take action without fear
of massive repercussions of failure,then you can start to build
a more audacious culture.
And to do that, you got to be a shapeshifting leader and know each person's. Yes.
(21:00):
Excellent.
So I can't have you on,
and not talk a little bit about your
your work, because I thinkthat even for folks who aren't,
big sports fans, I thinkwhenever I get the chance to sort of
talk to people who are in, in rolesthat people recognize and, you know,
they sort of see them at a distance.
(21:22):
I think it's always usefuland interesting to have that conversation.
So what what is the best partat this point in your career?
You've talked about the various thingsyou've done in sports
broadcasting,but as a play by play person,
what's the best part of the job?
The best part of the job for meis seeing people
push themselves to be elite.
(21:44):
I love watching people
and their bodiesdo things that they've trained for.
And then when the lights are on,it goes, well.
I see a lot of people crushingto, but boy, when they
when it works for them, I don't carewhat sport it is.
I get so excitedseeing athletes reach a new level.
(22:07):
Favorite sport to announce?
Oh, I love them.
All of my aunts.
I played volleyball, so that one.
I mean, it's an unfair question to askbecause someone's got this and say,
well, we're not going to give her that gigbecause it's not our favorite.
Oh yeah. Yeah.
But I love all of it because again,I work with an analyst in any sport.
Right.
So I get to work with, you know, afive time Olympic medalist, water polo
(22:29):
player, a WNBA champion, a, Bill Waltonwas a partner of mine before he passed.
There's a whole there's a set of stories.
I'm sure you have of.
Stories with Bill Walton,but God rest his soul, he was awesome.
So I love the partnership that I have,where
I can be the viewer and ask the questions.
The viewer wants to know,how did that happen?
(22:51):
Why did that happen?
How can they stop that from happeningagain?
That's my job as a play by play.
I had this conversation with my wifeall the time.
You watch a movie,you watch a television show,
and you know that half of what's happeningin whatever profession
it is isn't actuallywhat actually happens, right?
Like that would never happen.
(23:11):
What's what's whatare a couple of the biggest misconceptions
that we might collectively have about
doing play by playor doing doing live sports?
That it's easy.
So many people say all the time,I can do that, and they get up there,
or if they get the opportunityand they just talk over it.
And here's the biggest misconceptionthe really good play by play announcer.
(23:36):
It's not about them.
You may not even know their names.
It's about the athletesand it's about setting up the analyst.
And I think too many times people,especially for the play by play role,
they think, oh, I can do that.
And it's about them and not the audience.
And so it requires work and preparation.
I don't get up there and wing it.
(23:57):
There is a misconception for you.
People think, oh,I get up there and wing it.
No, there's daysand days of preparation for each event.
I know everybody's backgroundand everybody's
skills, everybody's past injuries.
It's prep how to.
Pronounce their names,which name is which number,
and a hundredother things like that. Right.
I have sat across the aisle, on airplanesmany times with folks who were,
(24:23):
living in Indianapoliswho were coming to do a Colts game.
And, you know,
the books are out and the whole flight,all they're doing is studying.
Oh, yeah.
And not that's just one example.
I can think of several,but it's like anything else.
You and I are having this conversationbefore we started.
About preparation for this. Right.
And when we, when we arriveready, we're we're better.
(24:44):
We have a better chanceof being successful.
And I think there are two thingsthat you just said
that I would hopeall of you as leaders would take. One.
Is that that preparation piece?
Yeah.
The other piece is there'san awful just like
there are play by play folkswho talk too much.
There are a lot of leadersthat talk too much as well.
So you could go back.
Everybodyjust listen to that short little snippet,
(25:06):
and and take out play by play announcerand put in leader.
And it would allwe should be trying to set up our team.
Just like in Reesetrying to set up her analyst.
You know, Kevin, I really love thatyour book is called Flexible Leadership.
Right?Because that's a huge part of it too.
And that's another partthat I had seen amongst the best leaders.
(25:27):
You know, there it isbeautiful and such an important point.
And you know, if anybody watchedI don't know if you're a sports fan,
if you watched The Last Danceduring Covid about the Bulls final season,
you really got an idea of how PhilJackson was a shape shifting leader
and allowing Dennis Rodman to go to Vegasin the middle of the season,
(25:48):
but never would allow thatfor Michael Jordan
because, as he put it, DennisRodman doesn't need basketball.
He didn't need it.
It wasn't his identity,but they needed Rodman in order to win.
So he had to dowhat was needed to keep Rodman engaged.
Michael Jordan,his whole identity was basketball,
so he's not going to send him off
for a weekend in Vegasbecause his needs were different.
(26:10):
Flexible leadership.
I can't wait to read your bookbecause flexible leadership
and a shapeshiftingleader tie together so well,
so energy.
There's a lot of stuff we talked about,and if this wasn't on a recording
and I could just talk to you about sports,we would do that.
But I know that
that's not the purpose of this show,nor what best serves our audience.
But I am curious if there's aif there's something that I didn't ask
(26:34):
that you thought I mightor wish I would have asked.
I think the only thing I would wantyou're so prepared, which is beautiful.
I think the thing that I would want peopleto know that are listening
is that going back to that one point,this is an innate trait.
You have to learn and challenge yourselfand practice being audacious.
(26:55):
It isn't something that just comesnaturally, not skilled audacity,
because there are reckless risksand there are risks that are worth it.
And that's a very important partof cultivating audacity in your life.
Writing that that there are recklessrisks, everybody,
and there are risks worth taking.
(27:16):
I hope that there have been multiple timesduring the show that something that
that Andrea has said, thatthat stopped you in your tracks.
You have the advantage,everybody of hitting the pause button.
I don't I have to do it in real time.
So I want to know.
Anne-Marie,it's clear that you love your work.
But life is more than work.
What do you do for fun?
(27:37):
I do any sport possible,
I play golf, I play volleyball,I spend a lot of time.
I have three kids who are now growing up,and I take them with me
when we talk about, like,how much I love my work, the assignment
I must spend the rest of my day on afterthis is preparing to go overseas
to call international volleyballcompetition.
(27:59):
And part of my agreement with this companyis that I get to bring my children.
And so when you ask what I do for fun,part of
it is being able to expose themto different parts of the world.
So they'll come with meand see international competition in Rio,
Istanbul, China, Poland, the Netherlands,everywhere I'm going this summer
and then get to experience the cultureand see how life is different
(28:21):
in different parts of the worldand how similar we are as well.
And both of those things are true.
So what are you reading these days?
Maybe.
Maybe there won't be a lot of bookswith you on the trip, I don't know,
or maybe a lobby on the Kindle,but what are you reading right now?
I am reading Good Awkward by
Hannah Pryor, Hannah's book.
(28:44):
First of all, it's so well-written,and it's it's a lot of fun.
And she's talking about workingthrough the moments where we felt
kind of awkward,or we feel awkward in addressing
a group or handling a problem,and her tips to work with it.
I really am enjoyinggood Awkward by Hannah Pryor.
And sounds like there's a connectionto making for your friend.
(29:05):
I'm just going to bet on that.
Where can we learn more about your workand where you get the book?
Like where do you want to point peoplebefore we wrap up?
Sure.
If you're interested in the book,you can get the first chapter free.
Cultivating audacity.com,
and there's exercises in there you cando, it's going to be out on audible soon.
(29:26):
And then if you want to potentially workwith me,
you can find me at Ann-Marie anderson.com.
I answer all of those messages myself.
So that's Anderson with an oneverybody and Marie and with an E.
And with me Marie.
As Bill Walton said when we first met,he said, Amory, I'm Bill with two L's.
And I said, and with the nameMarie Bill, nice to meet you.
(29:50):
After we end, I'm going to have to aska Bill Walton question.
But anyway, everybody, before we go
and before I say goodbyeto Ann Marie, a question for all of you.
If you've been here before,you know the question.
I'm not apologizing for that.
The question is, now what?
What are you going to doas a result of this?
Maybe you're going to think differently
about that word audacityand how it applies to you.
(30:12):
Maybe you're going to think differentlyabout risks.
Maybe you're going to think differently,in a lot of different ways.
But I want you to do more than just saythat that was a good idea.
But I really want you to dois to take action.
And and I'm not here to prescribewhat that action should be for you,
but rather to encourage you to do that,because until you act on something
(30:32):
that you learned here, this is maybea little better than entertainment,
but until you take action on it,then it becomes really valuable.
I hope that you'll do exactly that.
And Marie, thanks for being here.
It's a pleasure to have you.
Wonderful talking with you and everybody.
If you liked this and this was your firsttime, make sure it's not your last.
(30:54):
And if you've already been here before,make sure you're subscribed
wherever you're listening to this podcastso you don't miss any future episodes.
We'll be back next week
with another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Thanks everybody.
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