July 2, 2025 • 36 mins
Is workplace well-being a strategic advantage or simply a leadership nicety? In this episode, Kevin Eikenberry sits down with Paula Davis to discuss the seismic shifts reshaping our workplaces, including the lasting impacts of the pandemic, ongoing debates about hybrid work, generational expectations, and the rise of AI. Paula makes a case for adopting new mindsets over merely acquiring new skills. These include Sticky Recognition and Mattering, ABC Needs, Workload Sustainability, Systemic Stress Resilience, and Values and Team Alignment. Paula also addresses the deeper root causes of workplace stress, such as unmanageable workloads, lack of recognition, and organizational unfairness.
Listen For
00:00 Introduction
00:08 Workplace wellbeing overview
00:42 Podcast welcome and live events
01:30 About the book Flexible Leadership
01:57 Guest introduction – Paula Davis
04:41 Paula's journey and burnout story
06:21 Why the book matters now
08:34 Why focus on mindsets
10:11 People and performance focus
13:08 Research insights on high-performing organizations
15:05 Root causes of stress and disengagement
16:21 Six root causes explained
20:15 Why these issues matter more today
21:20 Overview of the five mindsets
22:06 Sticky recognition and mattering
24:29 ABC needs: Autonomy, Belonging, Challenge
25:23 Workload sustainability
28:27 Systemic stress resilience
30:15 Summary: human and teaming practices
31:12 What Paula does for fun
32:37 Book recommendation
34:01 Where to find Paula and the book
35:03 Final thoughts and call to action
Paula's Story: Paula Davis JD, MAPP, is the author of Lead Well: Five Mindsets to Engage, Retain and Inspire your Team. She is the founder and CEO of the Stress & Resilience Institute. For 15 years, she has been a trusted advisor to leaders in organizations of all sizes helping them to make work better. Paula is a globally recognized expert on the effects of workplace stress, burnout prevention, workplace well-being, and building resilience for individuals and teams. Paula left her law practice after seven years and earned a master’s degree in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. She is also the author of Beating Burnout at Work: Why Teams Hold the Secret to Well-Being & Resilience, which was nominated for best new book by the Next Big Idea Club. Paula has shared her expertise at educational institutions such as Harvard Law School, Wharton School Executive Education, and Princeton. She is a two-time recipient of the distinguished teaching award from the Medical College of Wisconsin. She has been featured in and on The New York Times, O, The Oprah Magazine, The Washington Post and many other media outlets. Paula is also a contributor to Forbes, Fast Company and Psychology Today.
https://stressandresilience.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauladavislaack/
https://www.instagram.com/stressandresilience/
This Episode is brought to you by...
Flexible Leadership is every leader’s guide to greater success in a world of increasing complexity and chaos.
Book Recommendations
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Workplace wellbeing.
Is that a human centered approachto leading or a key to higher level
performance?
Is it a nice to have or a criticalfor survival thing?
For questions in paradox.
One answer yes.
Today we are going to be practicalabout the mindsets
(00:30):
and share some specific advice
to help you create that workplacewellbeing and get great results
to engage, retain and inspire your team.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leaderslike you grow personally
and professionally so that you can leadmore effectively and make a bigger,
(00:54):
positive difference for your team,organization, and the world.
If you are listening to this podcastin the future,
you could be with uslive on your favorite social channel.
This one.
It's too late,but we do these regularly on places
like LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube and moreand you can find out when, where
(01:14):
and how you can join us for those bygoing to our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.
Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook
or remarkable podcast.com/linkedinthat will give you all the scoop.
I hope you'll join us for that.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
(01:35):
Navigate uncertaintyand lead with confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
Leaders need a new perspectiveand a new set of tools to create the
great results their organizationsand team members want and need.
(01:57):
That'swhat flexible leadership can provide you.
Learn more and orderyour copy now at flexible.
Excuse me at Remarkablepodcast.com/flexible.
And with thatI'm going to bring in my guest.
And then I'm going to introduce her.
There she is.
I will introduce herand then we will get started.
Her name is Paula Davis.
She is the founder and CEO of the Stressand Resilience Institute.
(02:21):
For 15 years, she's been a trusted advisorto leaders in organizations
of all sizes,helping them make work better.
She's a globally recognized experton the effects of workplace stress,
burnout prevention,
workplace wellbeing, and buildingresilience for individuals and teams.
She left her law practiceafter seven years and earned a master's
degree in applied psychologyfrom the University of Pennsylvania.
(02:44):
Paula, there's a bunch of youfrom that program that have been here
or will be here soon.
She is the author of BeatingBurnout at Work
Why Teams Hold the Secretto Well-Being and Resilience,
which was nominated for the best New Bookby the big Excuse Me by the Next Big Idea
Club, and was featured hereon the Remarkable Leadership podcast.
Her newest book is Lead Well Five Mindsets
(03:07):
to engage, retain and Inspire Your Team,which will be our focus today.
She has shared her expertiseat educational institutions
such as Harvard Law School, Wharton Schoolof Executive Education and Princeton.
She's a two time recipientof the Distinguished Teaching Award
from the Medical College of Wisconsin.
She has been featured inor on The New York Times, O,
(03:29):
The Oprah Magazine, Washington Post.
She's been everywhere.
She's a contributor to Forbes,Fast Company, and Psychology Today.
And as I hinted earlier, she's backon the Remarkable Leadership podcast.
She was here in June of 2021,so over for over 200 episodes ago.
And, Paula, welcome back.
(03:50):
So glad you're here.
Thank you. Kevin, I've beenI've had this date circled.
I've been really looking to talk to you.
We're looking forwardto talking to you again.
In your audience.
It's exciting.
And I'm glad to have you.And you've written a great book.
And everybody here's there's there'slots of good reasons to read a good book.
One of them is it's short.
It's, I'm aspiring.
(04:10):
I haven't gotten here yet. Paula.
So here's my new one.
Like I haven't gotten.
I'm getting better,but I'm not as good as you.
I'm getting better.They're getting shorter.
So, anyway, listen, I'mso glad you're here. Talk.
I mean, in the in the bio intro.
Talk a little bit about your journey.
Talked a little bitabout all of the focus on resilience
(04:32):
and that certainly in this book,but it's not the whole piece of this book.
So what?
Tell me a little bit about yourjourney and why this book?
So I started
my career as a lawyer,so I practiced law for seven years
and then burned out during whatbecame the last year of my law practice.
And so that was my sort of stop
(04:54):
the moment, figure out, Paula,what do you want to do with your career?
Do you want to continue on practicingor do something else?
And I decided to because I hired a coachso very serendipitously.
She had just finished the master'sin applied positive psychology
program at UPenn.
And I said,what is positive psychology like?
That's a thinglike as my undergrad is in psychology.
And I loved it.
(05:14):
And so, you know, long storyshort, applied got in,
and was going through the programand that's very first
not only started to learnabout the science of workplace well-being,
but really the science of resilience,and that the professors that were teaching
me were really the foremostthe world's leading experts
in the science of resiliencein a number of different ways.
(05:36):
And when I dug into the researchand was learning from them,
I just was like,I wish I had had this, like, this is a
teachable thing, like, I wish, yeah,how can I teach this to other people?
And so, you know,that was really my entry point into,
you know, the science generally,but also my love of
wanting to learn more and understandabout what that science was about.
(05:56):
And so, you know, all these for the past15 years, my work has really intersected
at, you know, wellbeing, resilienceand burnout prevention.
And looking at that through, a systemslens now, very much like not just helping
individuals, but how can we better teams,how can we be better leaders,
which is how we stumble upon thethe new book about the five mindsets.
(06:21):
And we'll get to those five
mindsets in a few minutes.
We talked about the book.
Why the bookand why the book from your journey.
But why is this book?
And we're going to talk about it,obviously.
But why is it important that the worldneeds what you're talking about right now?
Like what's set, the set, the whystage for us?
(06:42):
Yeah.
So I usually open with this slidewhen I, when I give my keynotes
and my presentations,is talking about the fact
that we're in such a seismic shiftwith our world of work right now.
I mean, you've got the convergenceof the pandemic aftermath,
which I think a lot of leadersstill under appreciate.
And I know a lot of uswant to just not talk about the
vastly underappreciated,
(07:04):
vastly underappreciated the psychologyand how that that experience
that we all went throughhas really shaped and shifted
how people think about their lifegenerally and about work specifically.
But we've got, you know, thewhere do we work conversation still going
on, the remote work versus hybridwork versus return to office mandates.
We have the fact that there'sjust been a lot of growth and change.
(07:25):
Generally, we are living in a climateof perpetual uncertainty,
geopolitical, in name, name,the type of uncertainty.
And we're really, you know,kind of finding ourselves in that.
And add to all of that the conversationabout generative AI and how that is going
to continue to vastly shape our landscapeat work in the next 5 to 10 years plus,
(07:46):
and you have a whole recipe
for stress and uncertainty and change.
And, leaders really, I think, are,
you know, undereducated about how to leadfrom the perspective of helping
usher their teams
through this profound moment of stressand change and challenge and uncertainty.
(08:11):
So I want to get the book.
The subtitle book is Five mindsetsand we will get to the five mindsets.
But, I'm a big proponent, of the ideaof mindsets before we get into the skills.
And so I'm specifically curious,Paula, why
why did you frame the book aroundmindsets?
(08:33):
We'll get to what they are later.
But I'm just curious,you know, as the author,
you have the chance to say,how do I want to frame this?
Why did you choose to frame it?
I think wisely, but why did you chooseto frame it on mindsets?
Yeah, so I struggle.
I struggled with the titleand the subtitle to be
I struggle with the title for a really,really long time.
We didn't pick the titleuntil really the 11th hour.
(08:54):
I, I settled on the mindsets,wording and idea and framework in my mind,
though quite early in the process,and once I landed on that,
I was reallyit was like I wasn't moving from it.
And it was because I really, want leadersto be thinking differently
and recognizing that they need to bethinking differently about the way
that they need to lead, if they wantthe results of thriving and resilience
(09:17):
and motivation and engagementand all of these good things.
Because this is a different time that thatreally calls for, a new way of thinking.
And so that mindset piece
was a really critical wordfor me to include and have in that.
Well, I love that because, you know,we're not going to get different results
without different actions,and we can't get different actions
(09:38):
without different thinking.
And so I'm a big proponent and believerthere's a lot about that
in all of our work.
And I love thatthat's where you're headed.
And we'll get to those five thingsin a few minutes.
But there's a couple of thingsI want to do first before we get there.
You talk about some research that was doneand I hinted at this in the open.
(09:59):
Actually in the open for the,
yeah, at the very beginning,
about the fact that there are some thingsthat people might hold as paradox,
as paradoxes that really go together.
And so you talk about some researchthat says that organizations
that have both a peopleand performance focus, when most people
(10:20):
would think about, well, ortheir performance focus or people focused,
but you're sayingand the research is saying
that when organizationsthat have both are most successful.
So, number one, what does it meanto have a people plus performance focus?
And number two, why is that leading themto be more successful?
Yeah, I find this conversationI think it's fascinating.
(10:41):
And it's also a little bit bizarre for mebecause I start the book with the story
about my dadand my mom and dad who started a business,
and that my dad just really figured out,intuitively,
how to lead in a way that heldboth the performance piece, the profits
piece, the money piece, and the peoplepiece, in tandem with each other.
And so that's reallyhow I've grown up in my world of work.
(11:04):
And so it's so intuitive to me
to think this way,because that's the model that I had.
That I have to remind myselfthat this isn't often the way
that we think in our world of work.
It's, you know, especially these dayswith, with work being so, complex
and global and fast
paced, the, the profits in the money piecereally often takes hold.
And so that's part of whyI wanted to build the case,
(11:25):
kind of going back to my late days,I wanted to build the argument
to build the case in this book forwhy do we need to be thinking in this way?
Why do we need to be elevatingthe people side to equal the
the performance in the money,in the profits and all of that?
And so I try to lay out
as much of that business case as I canand the argument as I can.
(11:45):
And one of the chapters of the bookand I stumbled across the study that,
I think really helped to sort this outand actually looked at,
quite a number of different organizations
around the worldand sorted them into four categories.
Those who were your typical performers,who were really?
Yes. Who were really neitherexcelling really at the
the profit sideor excelling at the people side.
(12:07):
And I think that was more than half
of the companies that, that theythat the research actually looked at.
So most, most organizations are kind ofin that typical. 5%.
55%. It's on page 20 for everybody.
When you get your copy.
Yes. You know, it's summarizedright there.
And then they looked at,percentage of companies
who were really excelling on that profitor money side.
(12:29):
A percentage of companies were excellingon the people side.
The human capital side.
And then the smallest portion of companiesthat they surveyed
were actually elevated in both categories.
They were excelling inboth the people in the performance side,
and so then they looked at, well,what were they really seeing?
What were the companiesand what was it, 9%, I think of the
the blended companies who had thatelevated people in performance.
(12:51):
You know, sort of metric down,
noticed a whole host of great outcomesin terms of better attrition rates,
higher revenue, getting through,you know, the tail end of the pandemic
and some of those shifts and swings much
easier than the other than the companiesin the other categories.
And it's been interestingwhen I unpack this research,
(13:12):
with a lot of organizations,
I do get a fair amount of pushback.
And I write about that in the book.
And I talk about how there's,I think, really a missing piece
of the folks who are, you know,kind of focusing just on the money in
the profits are excellingin that category.
Only are are sortof telling an incomplete story.
(13:34):
So while they are, you know, doinggreat on the financial side,
which of course is really important,right.
For businesses, we all have to careabout the money piece of it.
What the research really revealedis that when times are good, that's great.
When times are not so great,when you're in the periods of uncertainty
and the change in the challenge, companiesthat just have that profit
(13:56):
sort of centric focusonly tend to struggle more, right?
It's sort of like thethe people maybe not quite be on board
in the same way as thosewho are taking the blended approach.
And so they struggleand it takes them longer
to get where they want to go comparedto some of those other organizations.
And so I think it's really importantto tell the full story
that while the money part might seem good,it's good in certain circumstances.
(14:20):
And so there's more to say about that.
I love that, I love that that's how youyou build the case for this.
Because here's the thingI will say, as we unpack these five
or as much as we have timefor these five mindsets,
there'snothing here that anyone will argue with.
(14:40):
Except the big but is.
But we've gotwe've got a business to run here.
Like these all sound,as I said in the open like nice to have.
But what you're suggesting is no,these aren't just nice to have.
Like, if you want
to maybe just survive,but certainly if you want to thrive,
you have to start to thinkabout your business in new ways,
(15:03):
including these five ways andand we'll get to those in just a second.
But before we go there,and I know that all of this work
is interconnected with your work aroundstress and resilience in general,
but I think it's usefulfor us to take a second
because I have your expertise here.
And before everyone goes backand listens to episode 285,
(15:24):
we'll have that insurance for you.
You can listen to Paulatalk about preventing burnout, but,
what are the sources rootcauses of stress and disengagement.
So if we frame, we've now said here's thebusiness case, but let's talk about what
what are the root causes of this problemthat we really need to work to overcome.
(15:44):
And then we'll talk about the mindsetswe need to start to make the change.
So yeah what. Are those root causes.
Yeah I'm really passionateabout this piece because
this is what I think keeps getting missedin our world of one off programs
and more benefits and more tacticsand more individual facing types of things
which are all goodand needed and important, we're missing
(16:06):
the deeper conversation around,but actually driving the problem, right?
It's not until we actually startto tackle the root cause or the problems
that are leading to these,you know, consequences
of deep motivationand low engagement and stress and burnout,
that we're really goingto start to make headway.
And that's where you start to get intomore of this, interconnectivity.
Right.
So it's not just an individualfailing of stress management.
(16:29):
There really are cultural and leadershaped sorts of things that are happening
that, are really leadingto these consequences.
And so the first one,
which is I would say by far and awaythe biggest one that I continue to hear
and certainly heard in the last handfulof years, you know, out and about doing,
you know, kind of collecting all of thisinformation, this unmanageable workload.
I just have too much work to do,and I can't
(16:52):
I'm trying to get my arms around it,and I feel like I'm treading water,
and at any moment I might sink.
So that unmanageable workload pieces
not for everybody,but I think in a lot of circumstances,
really driving the bus herein terms of root causes,
the next onethat actually I heard quite a lot
that was a little bitmore surprising was lack of recognition.
So lack of recognitionshowing up as I don't hear.
(17:13):
Thank you a lot.
I'm unsure of the significanceor the impact that I'm making.
I feel like I'm working at a specific typeor A level, but my title doesn't match.
I feel like I have earned the rightto be on that deal pitch
or part of that more visible project.
And people aren't asking me or invitingme. So that's a big one.
Another one is unfairness.
And so that's also a big categoryof things like lack of transparency.
(17:37):
I know there are changes going on.
There are whispers, there are closeddoor meetings, things are happening,
and no one's saying anything to meabout it.
And I'm uncertain about where I standor where my team stands
or what the future of the companyeven looks like.
That unfairness piece is also just generalcorporate politics,
organizational politics,and red tape. Right?
I need to get a quick answer to something.
(17:57):
And it takes me seven forms
and two weeks before,you know, someone actually says something.
Another big one is lack of community.
And this one has been called into sharperfocus for sure in the past
handful of years aboutwhat does community even mean anymore?
Because it's not justwalking down the hallway
and having random watercoolerconversations with people anymore.
Right?So we have to expand how we look at that.
(18:20):
Lack of autonomy is another one.
So I don't have that requisite controland flexibility
over the decisions that I can make, whereand when I work, etc..
And then values misalignmentand lack of meaning.
And I'm hearing this one a lot more.
Certainlyin the last couple of years or so.
And I think that's sort of partof the pandemic aftermath showing up.
(18:40):
Also intergenerational conversationstoo, around,
what are the what are the valuesI want from my world of work?
What does my organization say?
It values, and do leadersreally live those values?
Are those values just a nice little posterthat I see on the wall
when I walk into work, or that we hearall the time in our town halls.
So it's those six piecesand they're all interconnected,
(19:04):
that we
really have to start prioritizingand looking at.
And so that frame worked
really, really also helped to shapewhere I went with the mindsets.
So, yes.
And people,
as we unpack the mindsets in a second,you'll see you'll see connections there.
But I'm curious, I'mgoing to take a little bit
of a contrarian view hereand a couple of those you mentioned.
(19:25):
And we could certainly talk around the,the community.
One of okay, that's differentnow than it was.
You know,
five years ago.
But some of the rest of those,some people with
maybe a few more years under their belt,you know, maybe like as old as Kevin,
might be saying, okay, but Paula,those things have always been there.
(19:45):
Like, why are they more importantor are they more important now?
Or are you just sort of saying,hey, we got to pay attention
to these these facts?
Yeah, I think,
I think it's more
so that we have to startpaying attention to them,
because when you start to peel backthe layers of why
we keep seeing consistentlyhigh burnout rates, why
(20:06):
the disengagement levelsare at their ten year
low, according to Gallup research,why we're seeing,
you know, these extraordinary levelsof stress and discontent
and other things in our world of work.
There has to be a reason why.
And so I think because of the differentforces that are shaped and are continuing
to shape our world of work in the pasthandful of years, for sure.
(20:26):
I think these six are just calledinto sharper
focus, such thatuntil we really start to dig into them,
you know,
it's going to be hardto move the ball forward.
And even if these were around ten, 15, 20plus whatever years or so ago,
work looked so different 20 years agoand 30 years ago,
(20:48):
and collegiality was more present,I think. And,
you know, companies were smallerand it made it easier to to potentially
do some of these things. And so,
I don't know, I think it's justI think it's more
so the shift that we're seeingin the last handful of years, for sure.
So I've been talking and,
and and teasing,if you will, these five mindsets.
(21:11):
So we don't have time to gointo any of them in a lot of depth.
But I want people
to get the lay of the land, in partbecause then they need to go buy
a copy of the bookso they get all the details.
And when they're talking,if you just now joining us,
I'm talking to Paula Davis,the author of the brand new book lead.
Well, five Mindsets to engage, retainand Inspire Your Team.
And now let's outline those five mindsets.
(21:33):
The first is stickyrecognition and mattering.
And by the way,your friend who wrote about mattering
is going to be a guest on the showcoming up. Yay!
Oh, he is one of my favorite people.
Doctor Zach Mercurio.
Yes. Yeah.
So he'll be coming up, some more of folksthat, you know, like West Adams.
West and Tamara.
(21:53):
Yeah, they were just. On the other week.
Well, they haven't, but neither ofyour shows have gone live on the podcast.
But by the I'll probably put the linkto theirs in the show notes.
But let's talk about,
what first of
all, we all know recognition iswhat do you mean by sticky recognition?
Stickyrecognition is a phrase that I created
because I wanted to go a little bit deeperwith the concept, and it's really a way
(22:14):
to show a person or a teamthe evidence of their impact,
because we know when we are
keenly aware of that and the significancethat we're making in our world of work,
it just unlocks a whole host,a cascade of what I just call
great psychological fuel.
So, I invented that phraseand that and that and that definition.
And what I realized,
(22:34):
because I started to look at examplesof when people received
moments of sticky recognitionand they would say, like,
I remembered it 14 years laterand it was a two minute conversation.
And I'm like, how?
Like what?
What is what is going on with that?
And so I started to dig into the researcha little bit more and realized that that
that act of sticky recognitionreally turns on this notion of mattering.
(22:57):
Right?
We feel like we're achieving
something that's important to us,but that we are also accomplished.
We are accomplishing goalsthat are important to us
and that people are noticing it,and they're saying something about it.
And it's a fundamental human need.
The absolutely hundred percent.
The thing that I want to say here aboutthis is that,
you mentioned in this section
often that this mindset doesn't mean,
(23:20):
you've said it twice now, a simple
thank you with clarity
and reason for thethank you might be all that's needed.
And so I think a lot of times as leaders,we think, oh yeah, I need to do that.
I don't have time to do that.
Well, first of all,
we need to make time and thinking aboutit may not take as much time as you think.
And no, in fact,the the example that I put in the book,
(23:41):
the the person talks abouthow it's a two minute conversation.
She said the conversation tooktwo minutes.
And I remember at 14 years later
and it was like anything thatthis particular leader asked me to do,
I said, yes, or I mean, it just
it just ignited somethingcompletely different in her.
And when you read the chapter, you,and as was I when I was first learning,
you know, some of the strategies and tinynoticeable things, as I call them,
(24:03):
that helped to fulfill this mindset.
It is shocking, easy, basic human behavior
that we all learned in kindergarten,probably amplified.
But. That's another book.
Everything I need to learn, I learnedin kindergarten. That's all. Right.
And that was even shorter than yours,Paula.
Right.
So the second of the mindsets and you'veyou've written about this before,
(24:26):
but really important piece,what you call that a ABC needs. Yes.
The ABC needs are a powerfultrio of needs that we all need to.
And this is regardless of generation,
in our world of work.
And it is the as autonomy.
So we need that sense of what I callchoosing your own adventure.
I want the ability to be able to havesome control or say or work in decisions.
(24:50):
The B is belonging.
So that sense of community and connectionand that, the C is challenge
or growth, right?
We want to be growing toward goalsand getting closer to things that
are important to us at work.
I love that, and if we bring
that mindset with us,it helps us recognize those.
Those three things are so powerful.
(25:10):
And as leaders,we can start to find ways to to engage
those needs with our folks.
The next one goes to one of the veryspecific things you said earlier about the
the root causes of disengagement,and that is workload.
Specifically,you call this workload sustainability.
Yes. Working on that.
This was such a hard chapter to write.
(25:31):
I thought this thisI didn't want to write this chapter
because as I started to dig into it,I'm like, this is just too big of a
and this is an immensely difficult,
interconnected, complicated topicto start to unravel.
But I realized that I would not be giving
people, given thatthat was such a big driver of discontent.
I can't not,but something about that in in the book,
(25:53):
if I'm writing about mindsetsthat leaders need to have.
And so
really what it came down to and part of itmade it in the book and part of it,
is really good or better teaming
practices and really good recovery.
Or what do I do when I'm stressed?
How can I take a pause? Practices.
And so it's the teaming lens or focus.
That is what made it in the book.
(26:14):
There's a pieceto and we don't have time to dive into it.
But again everybody,when you get your copy,
make sure you go to page 75 when she talksabout why does overload happen.
And there's some pointsthere for us as leaders.
And they struck me.
I think I'm pretty good on most of these.
But a couple of these like failureto rebalance
(26:35):
when people leave huge impact.
I mean like we all knowyeah, that makes sense.
But we don't do it right.
Or we assume that peoplewill figure it out.
Well, if we don't give them some help,they aren't going to be able to figure
that autonomy is one thing,
but leaving them alone and ignoring itis something entirely different.
And oftentimes I think, especiallyin bigger organizations,
another one of those thingsthat you mentioned,
(26:56):
there is just an absoluteblindness to the impact, right?
We're going to and this is a bigger thing,but we're going to cut, 10%
of our workforce and then, well,they'll figure it out.
Well, we have to start to say, what?
Listen, humans aren't good at work.
We're not good at saying no.
And if we do things like that, like we gotto help people decide what to say no to.
(27:20):
Well, absolutely. And also,humans aren't machines.
And that's how we started to functionally,
I think, sort of think about themsometimes because when we cut
when you cut workforceand you keep the workload
the same or it starts to increase,that's going to have a consequence.
You may not careor you may not see it right away.
But it's there's going to be outcomesassociated with that.
And you in peoplejust that's not sustainable.
(27:42):
That word sustainabilitywas really important to me.
Because that's what I'm looking for here.
I'm not looking for usto take our foot off the gas.
I'm not looking for us to say we've got towork less hard or all of those things.
It's just thatwe've got to do it in a sustainable way
so that people don't burn out.
I've got loads of the burnoutstatistic still, you know,
fresh right now, I mean,and it's going in the wrong direction.
(28:03):
And so we've got to we've got to reallysee how we can marry those two things.
The fifth of the mindsets is about valuesand team alignment.
And I think, well, that's super important.
I think all of us can have a pretty clearpicture there.
But I can't have us spend time
and not talk about the fourth mindset,which is systemic,
stress resiliencebecause it's such a major
(28:26):
part of your work over the long termand not just this book.
So what do we asleaders need to be thinking mindset wise
around systemic stress resilience?
I think that word systemic is key,I think, and that's really a theme
throughout the whole book,is that we need to be thinking, yes.
How do we help individualsbuild the capacity or increase
the skill setsthat are associated with resilience?
(28:48):
But we also have to look at it.
Then what can we doto make our teams more resilient?
Because there's a great sciencethat tells us more about how to do that,
and even organizationally, then let's go.
Biggest picturehow do we help to make our organizations
fuel resilienceat the organizational level?
Because there's also great strategiesfor that.
And I was just I was so struckbecause I was writing this book last year.
(29:09):
And as I was digging into the research,I kept coming across like little pieces
and little snippets of different strandsof things talking about,
you know, surveys of leadersand what have you.
And consistently it was at least half,if not more than half
the very senior executives saying
that they didn't feelthat their companies were positioned
well positioned to handle the nextwhatever crisis might be coming,
(29:33):
which I it floored me because here we are
ushering out of one of the biggest
challenges and crises that organizationsin our world of work has faced ever.
And to say thatthat hasn't done something to help you
or want you to start to see, okay, well,what's next around the corner?
Or and it'sbecause they. Treat it as a one off thing.
Well,that will never happen again. And it.
Probably itprobably won't be a huge global pandemic,
(29:55):
but there's going to be lots
of other types of challengesand various different you know what you.
Just mentioned one generative AI, right?
I mean, like.
There you go. Right? Right.
For sure, for sure. So,
is there
is theresomething that you wanted us to talk about
or that I didn't ask about, that you wishI would have?
(30:16):
I think,
I always like to sort of distill this down
into, like, a, like a quick little,you know, what is this book about?
If I'm going to pick it up.
And I think that leading well in this dayand age comes down
to a couple of two different things,really.
It's really good teaming practices.
And I don't think we spend enough timetalking about what do good teams look like
and how do they function welland it's also really good human practices.
(30:40):
We have to come back to this notion
of meaning and valuesand caring about other people and,
you know, making sure that they feelconnected to others at work.
And we've got to do thatlooking through the lens of, yes,
we still got to make the moneyin the profits
and all of those good things,
but it's the good teaming practicesand good human practices
that are going to get youa really, really long way.
(31:03):
Excellent.
I want to shift gears and ask youa couple of questions that I always ask,
my guests.
And one of those is,what do you do, Paula?
For fun.
What do I do?
So I have a nine year old.
My daughterLucy just turned nine a couple weeks ago.
And so she and I love to travel,so we just did a quick little overnight
on her spring break, to Nashville.
(31:23):
And so that was herher new state and a new city for her.
So love, love, love to travel.
And I miss you.
Different things with a nine year oldin Nashville than you might do with a nine
with a 29 year old. Just saying.
It was so funny because I was tellingmy friends I'm like, wow,
it's a really different experience.
I didn't know there were that many candy.
Candy shops and boot stores and likeother things that we went into, it was so.
(31:46):
There is a tremendous ice cream shopthere.
Is there?
Imagine dairy.
Okay, we missed.
Anything shake I've ever had in my life.
I am not getting any payment for that.
Everybody, the American Dairy.
Longest lineI've ever waited for for food in my life.
It's a long story.
But if it was worth it, I'll do it, right?
(32:06):
Yeah. I'm a foodie, so I love that.
Go back to the adventure part. It's awe made a memory.
That part is for.Sure made a memory. And it was.
And I'm obsessed with sports, playingsports and watching sports.
So I there's a lot of,you know, golfing and volleyball
and I try to keep up with my runningpractice and all sorts of things.
So I love sports.
(32:26):
So, you hinted at during thewriting of the book, all of the reading
that you need to do, and I know whatthat's all like, but I'm curious.
What are you reading now?
Is there anything thatthat's on your reading list
or you've read recentlythat you want to share with us?
Yeah. So there's a fantastic book.
It just came out,I believe it was the end of March called
Why Workplace Well-Being matters by,Yann Emmanuel Deneuve and, George Ward.
(32:49):
And part of the reasonI'm not all the way through it, but
they've got some great studies alreadythat have been published.
Part of the reasonwhy I love this book is it's, I think just
it's hugely detailedwith the business case.
So if you pick up lead welland start to see some of
I mentioned some of their researchand in one of my chapters,
if you want to take a much deeper diveinto that research, go pick up that book,
(33:11):
because I think it's a game changerfor our wellbeing work at any level,
because it's starting to really putvery concrete business terms to it.
We will have that in the show notes,
of course, as we always do, before we,
well, let's just do this. What?
(33:32):
Where can people find you?
Where do you want to point people?If they want to copy the book?
Where do you want to go?All that stuff. Sure.
So the hub of all things, with my businessis my website.
So stress and resilience.com would be thefirst place you can buy the book there.
You can also just hop on Barnes
and Noble or Amazonand buy it, buy it there as well.
(33:53):
Also, LinkedIn is my social mediaplatform of choice.
And so, it'swhere I publish all of my work
first, my articles and studiesand things of that nature.
So lots of lots of coolthings coming up this year. So
awesome.
So before we say our goodbyes, Paula and Iand to all of you,
(34:13):
I've got a question that I want to askall of you as listeners and viewers,
if you've been here before,you know what I'm going to ask?
Here it is.
If you're new or you forgot. Now what?
What are you going to do with whatyou just got?
Like, this is useful stuff.
It's interesting stuff,
but it's not really usefulunless you can take action on it.
So what is it?
From what you just heard, Paula sharethat you're going to act on and
(34:35):
I'm I took my own notesabout what those things are for me.
But the question is,what would those things be for you?
How do you think aboutperhaps it's thinking about what do we do
to to create thisboth people and performance focus.
Maybe it'sthinking about one of those mindsets.
How do I what could I do todayto create some sticky recognition
or to rethink workplaceworkload sustainability?
(34:57):
I don't know what that thing is for you,but what I do know is that
if you don't take action on this,this will be of less value to you.
Then if you do.
Paula, thank you for being here.
It's a pleasure to have you back.
You're we're less than a dozen peopleI think have been here more than once.
So you're really glad to have you back?
(35:18):
I'm so honored. Thanks, Kevin.
I was so looking forward to this,and it never disappoints.
And so thank you so much.
It's my pleasure.
So, everybody, if you found this useful,take action, as I already said.
But here's another action.
Go tell someone else that they shouldlisten and invite them to join you.
Wherever it isthat you listen to your podcast
and make sure you're subscribed
(35:38):
wherever you listen to your podcastso you don't miss any future episodes.
Like next week
when we will be back with another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Workplace wellbeing.
Is that a human centered approachto leading or a key to higher level
performance?
Is it a nice to have or a criticalfor survival thing?
For questions in paradox.
One answer yes.
Today we are going to be practicalabout the mindsets
(00:30):
and share some specific advice
to help you create that workplacewellbeing and get great results
to engage, retain and inspire your team.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leaderslike you grow personally
and professionally so that you can leadmore effectively and make a bigger,
(00:54):
positive difference for your team,organization, and the world.
If you are listening to this podcastin the future,
you could be with uslive on your favorite social channel.
This one.
It's too late,but we do these regularly on places
like LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube and moreand you can find out when, where
(01:14):
and how you can join us for those bygoing to our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.
Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook
or remarkable podcast.com/linkedinthat will give you all the scoop.
I hope you'll join us for that.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
(01:35):
Navigate uncertaintyand lead with confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
Leaders need a new perspectiveand a new set of tools to create the
great results their organizationsand team members want and need.
(01:57):
That'swhat flexible leadership can provide you.
Learn more and orderyour copy now at flexible.
Excuse me at Remarkablepodcast.com/flexible.
And with thatI'm going to bring in my guest.
And then I'm going to introduce her.
There she is.
I will introduce herand then we will get started.
Her name is Paula Davis.
She is the founder and CEO of the Stressand Resilience Institute.
(02:21):
For 15 years, she's been a trusted advisorto leaders in organizations
of all sizes,helping them make work better.
She's a globally recognized experton the effects of workplace stress,
burnout prevention,
workplace wellbeing, and buildingresilience for individuals and teams.
She left her law practiceafter seven years and earned a master's
degree in applied psychologyfrom the University of Pennsylvania.
(02:44):
Paula, there's a bunch of youfrom that program that have been here
or will be here soon.
She is the author of BeatingBurnout at Work
Why Teams Hold the Secretto Well-Being and Resilience,
which was nominated for the best New Bookby the big Excuse Me by the Next Big Idea
Club, and was featured hereon the Remarkable Leadership podcast.
Her newest book is Lead Well Five Mindsets
(03:07):
to engage, retain and Inspire Your Team,which will be our focus today.
She has shared her expertiseat educational institutions
such as Harvard Law School, Wharton Schoolof Executive Education and Princeton.
She's a two time recipientof the Distinguished Teaching Award
from the Medical College of Wisconsin.
She has been featured inor on The New York Times, O,
(03:29):
The Oprah Magazine, Washington Post.
She's been everywhere.
She's a contributor to Forbes,Fast Company, and Psychology Today.
And as I hinted earlier, she's backon the Remarkable Leadership podcast.
She was here in June of 2021,so over for over 200 episodes ago.
And, Paula, welcome back.
(03:50):
So glad you're here.
Thank you. Kevin, I've beenI've had this date circled.
I've been really looking to talk to you.
We're looking forwardto talking to you again.
In your audience.
It's exciting.
And I'm glad to have you.And you've written a great book.
And everybody here's there's there'slots of good reasons to read a good book.
One of them is it's short.
It's, I'm aspiring.
(04:10):
I haven't gotten here yet. Paula.
So here's my new one.
Like I haven't gotten.
I'm getting better,but I'm not as good as you.
I'm getting better.They're getting shorter.
So, anyway, listen, I'mso glad you're here. Talk.
I mean, in the in the bio intro.
Talk a little bit about your journey.
Talked a little bitabout all of the focus on resilience
(04:32):
and that certainly in this book,but it's not the whole piece of this book.
So what?
Tell me a little bit about yourjourney and why this book?
So I started
my career as a lawyer,so I practiced law for seven years
and then burned out during whatbecame the last year of my law practice.
And so that was my sort of stop
(04:54):
the moment, figure out, Paula,what do you want to do with your career?
Do you want to continue on practicingor do something else?
And I decided to because I hired a coachso very serendipitously.
She had just finished the master'sin applied positive psychology
program at UPenn.
And I said,what is positive psychology like?
That's a thinglike as my undergrad is in psychology.
And I loved it.
(05:14):
And so, you know, long storyshort, applied got in,
and was going through the programand that's very first
not only started to learnabout the science of workplace well-being,
but really the science of resilience,and that the professors that were teaching
me were really the foremostthe world's leading experts
in the science of resiliencein a number of different ways.
(05:36):
And when I dug into the researchand was learning from them,
I just was like,I wish I had had this, like, this is a
teachable thing, like, I wish, yeah,how can I teach this to other people?
And so, you know,that was really my entry point into,
you know, the science generally,but also my love of
wanting to learn more and understandabout what that science was about.
(05:56):
And so, you know, all these for the past15 years, my work has really intersected
at, you know, wellbeing, resilienceand burnout prevention.
And looking at that through, a systemslens now, very much like not just helping
individuals, but how can we better teams,how can we be better leaders,
which is how we stumble upon thethe new book about the five mindsets.
(06:21):
And we'll get to those five
mindsets in a few minutes.
We talked about the book.
Why the bookand why the book from your journey.
But why is this book?
And we're going to talk about it,obviously.
But why is it important that the worldneeds what you're talking about right now?
Like what's set, the set, the whystage for us?
(06:42):
Yeah.
So I usually open with this slidewhen I, when I give my keynotes
and my presentations,is talking about the fact
that we're in such a seismic shiftwith our world of work right now.
I mean, you've got the convergenceof the pandemic aftermath,
which I think a lot of leadersstill under appreciate.
And I know a lot of uswant to just not talk about the
vastly underappreciated,
(07:04):
vastly underappreciated the psychologyand how that that experience
that we all went throughhas really shaped and shifted
how people think about their lifegenerally and about work specifically.
But we've got, you know, thewhere do we work conversation still going
on, the remote work versus hybridwork versus return to office mandates.
We have the fact that there'sjust been a lot of growth and change.
(07:25):
Generally, we are living in a climateof perpetual uncertainty,
geopolitical, in name, name,the type of uncertainty.
And we're really, you know,kind of finding ourselves in that.
And add to all of that the conversationabout generative AI and how that is going
to continue to vastly shape our landscapeat work in the next 5 to 10 years plus,
(07:46):
and you have a whole recipe
for stress and uncertainty and change.
And, leaders really, I think, are,
you know, undereducated about how to leadfrom the perspective of helping
usher their teams
through this profound moment of stressand change and challenge and uncertainty.
(08:11):
So I want to get the book.
The subtitle book is Five mindsetsand we will get to the five mindsets.
But, I'm a big proponent, of the ideaof mindsets before we get into the skills.
And so I'm specifically curious,Paula, why
why did you frame the book aroundmindsets?
(08:33):
We'll get to what they are later.
But I'm just curious,you know, as the author,
you have the chance to say,how do I want to frame this?
Why did you choose to frame it?
I think wisely, but why did you chooseto frame it on mindsets?
Yeah, so I struggle.
I struggled with the titleand the subtitle to be
I struggle with the title for a really,really long time.
We didn't pick the titleuntil really the 11th hour.
(08:54):
I, I settled on the mindsets,wording and idea and framework in my mind,
though quite early in the process,and once I landed on that,
I was reallyit was like I wasn't moving from it.
And it was because I really, want leadersto be thinking differently
and recognizing that they need to bethinking differently about the way
that they need to lead, if they wantthe results of thriving and resilience
(09:17):
and motivation and engagementand all of these good things.
Because this is a different time that thatreally calls for, a new way of thinking.
And so that mindset piece
was a really critical wordfor me to include and have in that.
Well, I love that because, you know,we're not going to get different results
without different actions,and we can't get different actions
(09:38):
without different thinking.
And so I'm a big proponent and believerthere's a lot about that
in all of our work.
And I love thatthat's where you're headed.
And we'll get to those five thingsin a few minutes.
But there's a couple of thingsI want to do first before we get there.
You talk about some research that was doneand I hinted at this in the open.
(09:59):
Actually in the open for the,
yeah, at the very beginning,
about the fact that there are some thingsthat people might hold as paradox,
as paradoxes that really go together.
And so you talk about some researchthat says that organizations
that have both a peopleand performance focus, when most people
(10:20):
would think about, well, ortheir performance focus or people focused,
but you're sayingand the research is saying
that when organizationsthat have both are most successful.
So, number one, what does it meanto have a people plus performance focus?
And number two, why is that leading themto be more successful?
Yeah, I find this conversationI think it's fascinating.
(10:41):
And it's also a little bit bizarre for mebecause I start the book with the story
about my dadand my mom and dad who started a business,
and that my dad just really figured out,intuitively,
how to lead in a way that heldboth the performance piece, the profits
piece, the money piece, and the peoplepiece, in tandem with each other.
And so that's reallyhow I've grown up in my world of work.
(11:04):
And so it's so intuitive to me
to think this way,because that's the model that I had.
That I have to remind myselfthat this isn't often the way
that we think in our world of work.
It's, you know, especially these dayswith, with work being so, complex
and global and fast
paced, the, the profits in the money piecereally often takes hold.
And so that's part of whyI wanted to build the case,
(11:25):
kind of going back to my late days,I wanted to build the argument
to build the case in this book forwhy do we need to be thinking in this way?
Why do we need to be elevatingthe people side to equal the
the performance in the money,in the profits and all of that?
And so I try to lay out
as much of that business case as I canand the argument as I can.
(11:45):
And one of the chapters of the bookand I stumbled across the study that,
I think really helped to sort this outand actually looked at,
quite a number of different organizations
around the worldand sorted them into four categories.
Those who were your typical performers,who were really?
Yes. Who were really neitherexcelling really at the
the profit sideor excelling at the people side.
(12:07):
And I think that was more than half
of the companies that, that theythat the research actually looked at.
So most, most organizations are kind ofin that typical. 5%.
55%. It's on page 20 for everybody.
When you get your copy.
Yes. You know, it's summarizedright there.
And then they looked at,percentage of companies
who were really excelling on that profitor money side.
(12:29):
A percentage of companies were excellingon the people side.
The human capital side.
And then the smallest portion of companiesthat they surveyed
were actually elevated in both categories.
They were excelling inboth the people in the performance side,
and so then they looked at, well,what were they really seeing?
What were the companiesand what was it, 9%, I think of the
the blended companies who had thatelevated people in performance.
(12:51):
You know, sort of metric down,
noticed a whole host of great outcomesin terms of better attrition rates,
higher revenue, getting through,you know, the tail end of the pandemic
and some of those shifts and swings much
easier than the other than the companiesin the other categories.
And it's been interestingwhen I unpack this research,
(13:12):
with a lot of organizations,
I do get a fair amount of pushback.
And I write about that in the book.
And I talk about how there's,I think, really a missing piece
of the folks who are, you know,kind of focusing just on the money in
the profits are excellingin that category.
Only are are sortof telling an incomplete story.
(13:34):
So while they are, you know, doinggreat on the financial side,
which of course is really important,right.
For businesses, we all have to careabout the money piece of it.
What the research really revealedis that when times are good, that's great.
When times are not so great,when you're in the periods of uncertainty
and the change in the challenge, companiesthat just have that profit
(13:56):
sort of centric focusonly tend to struggle more, right?
It's sort of like thethe people maybe not quite be on board
in the same way as thosewho are taking the blended approach.
And so they struggleand it takes them longer
to get where they want to go comparedto some of those other organizations.
And so I think it's really importantto tell the full story
that while the money part might seem good,it's good in certain circumstances.
(14:20):
And so there's more to say about that.
I love that, I love that that's how youyou build the case for this.
Because here's the thingI will say, as we unpack these five
or as much as we have timefor these five mindsets,
there'snothing here that anyone will argue with.
(14:40):
Except the big but is.
But we've gotwe've got a business to run here.
Like these all sound,as I said in the open like nice to have.
But what you're suggesting is no,these aren't just nice to have.
Like, if you want
to maybe just survive,but certainly if you want to thrive,
you have to start to thinkabout your business in new ways,
(15:03):
including these five ways andand we'll get to those in just a second.
But before we go there,and I know that all of this work
is interconnected with your work aroundstress and resilience in general,
but I think it's usefulfor us to take a second
because I have your expertise here.
And before everyone goes backand listens to episode 285,
(15:24):
we'll have that insurance for you.
You can listen to Paulatalk about preventing burnout, but,
what are the sources rootcauses of stress and disengagement.
So if we frame, we've now said here's thebusiness case, but let's talk about what
what are the root causes of this problemthat we really need to work to overcome.
(15:44):
And then we'll talk about the mindsetswe need to start to make the change.
So yeah what. Are those root causes.
Yeah I'm really passionateabout this piece because
this is what I think keeps getting missedin our world of one off programs
and more benefits and more tacticsand more individual facing types of things
which are all goodand needed and important, we're missing
(16:06):
the deeper conversation around,but actually driving the problem, right?
It's not until we actually startto tackle the root cause or the problems
that are leading to these,you know, consequences
of deep motivationand low engagement and stress and burnout,
that we're really goingto start to make headway.
And that's where you start to get intomore of this, interconnectivity.
Right.
So it's not just an individualfailing of stress management.
(16:29):
There really are cultural and leadershaped sorts of things that are happening
that, are really leadingto these consequences.
And so the first one,
which is I would say by far and awaythe biggest one that I continue to hear
and certainly heard in the last handfulof years, you know, out and about doing,
you know, kind of collecting all of thisinformation, this unmanageable workload.
I just have too much work to do,and I can't
(16:52):
I'm trying to get my arms around it,and I feel like I'm treading water,
and at any moment I might sink.
So that unmanageable workload pieces
not for everybody,but I think in a lot of circumstances,
really driving the bus herein terms of root causes,
the next onethat actually I heard quite a lot
that was a little bitmore surprising was lack of recognition.
So lack of recognitionshowing up as I don't hear.
(17:13):
Thank you a lot.
I'm unsure of the significanceor the impact that I'm making.
I feel like I'm working at a specific typeor A level, but my title doesn't match.
I feel like I have earned the rightto be on that deal pitch
or part of that more visible project.
And people aren't asking me or invitingme. So that's a big one.
Another one is unfairness.
And so that's also a big categoryof things like lack of transparency.
(17:37):
I know there are changes going on.
There are whispers, there are closeddoor meetings, things are happening,
and no one's saying anything to meabout it.
And I'm uncertain about where I standor where my team stands
or what the future of the companyeven looks like.
That unfairness piece is also just generalcorporate politics,
organizational politics,and red tape. Right?
I need to get a quick answer to something.
(17:57):
And it takes me seven forms
and two weeks before,you know, someone actually says something.
Another big one is lack of community.
And this one has been called into sharperfocus for sure in the past
handful of years aboutwhat does community even mean anymore?
Because it's not justwalking down the hallway
and having random watercoolerconversations with people anymore.
Right?So we have to expand how we look at that.
(18:20):
Lack of autonomy is another one.
So I don't have that requisite controland flexibility
over the decisions that I can make, whereand when I work, etc..
And then values misalignmentand lack of meaning.
And I'm hearing this one a lot more.
Certainlyin the last couple of years or so.
And I think that's sort of partof the pandemic aftermath showing up.
(18:40):
Also intergenerational conversationstoo, around,
what are the what are the valuesI want from my world of work?
What does my organization say?
It values, and do leadersreally live those values?
Are those values just a nice little posterthat I see on the wall
when I walk into work, or that we hearall the time in our town halls.
So it's those six piecesand they're all interconnected,
(19:04):
that we
really have to start prioritizingand looking at.
And so that frame worked
really, really also helped to shapewhere I went with the mindsets.
So, yes.
And people,
as we unpack the mindsets in a second,you'll see you'll see connections there.
But I'm curious, I'mgoing to take a little bit
of a contrarian view hereand a couple of those you mentioned.
(19:25):
And we could certainly talk around the,the community.
One of okay, that's differentnow than it was.
You know,
five years ago.
But some of the rest of those,some people with
maybe a few more years under their belt,you know, maybe like as old as Kevin,
might be saying, okay, but Paula,those things have always been there.
(19:45):
Like, why are they more importantor are they more important now?
Or are you just sort of saying,hey, we got to pay attention
to these these facts?
Yeah, I think,
I think it's more
so that we have to startpaying attention to them,
because when you start to peel backthe layers of why
we keep seeing consistentlyhigh burnout rates, why
(20:06):
the disengagement levelsare at their ten year
low, according to Gallup research,why we're seeing,
you know, these extraordinary levelsof stress and discontent
and other things in our world of work.
There has to be a reason why.
And so I think because of the differentforces that are shaped and are continuing
to shape our world of work in the pasthandful of years, for sure.
(20:26):
I think these six are just calledinto sharper
focus, such thatuntil we really start to dig into them,
you know,
it's going to be hardto move the ball forward.
And even if these were around ten, 15, 20plus whatever years or so ago,
work looked so different 20 years agoand 30 years ago,
(20:48):
and collegiality was more present,I think. And,
you know, companies were smallerand it made it easier to to potentially
do some of these things. And so,
I don't know, I think it's justI think it's more
so the shift that we're seeingin the last handful of years, for sure.
So I've been talking and,
and and teasing,if you will, these five mindsets.
(21:11):
So we don't have time to gointo any of them in a lot of depth.
But I want people
to get the lay of the land, in partbecause then they need to go buy
a copy of the bookso they get all the details.
And when they're talking,if you just now joining us,
I'm talking to Paula Davis,the author of the brand new book lead.
Well, five Mindsets to engage, retainand Inspire Your Team.
And now let's outline those five mindsets.
(21:33):
The first is stickyrecognition and mattering.
And by the way,your friend who wrote about mattering
is going to be a guest on the showcoming up. Yay!
Oh, he is one of my favorite people.
Doctor Zach Mercurio.
Yes. Yeah.
So he'll be coming up, some more of folksthat, you know, like West Adams.
West and Tamara.
(21:53):
Yeah, they were just. On the other week.
Well, they haven't, but neither ofyour shows have gone live on the podcast.
But by the I'll probably put the linkto theirs in the show notes.
But let's talk about,
what first of
all, we all know recognition iswhat do you mean by sticky recognition?
Stickyrecognition is a phrase that I created
because I wanted to go a little bit deeperwith the concept, and it's really a way
(22:14):
to show a person or a teamthe evidence of their impact,
because we know when we are
keenly aware of that and the significancethat we're making in our world of work,
it just unlocks a whole host,a cascade of what I just call
great psychological fuel.
So, I invented that phraseand that and that and that definition.
And what I realized,
(22:34):
because I started to look at examplesof when people received
moments of sticky recognitionand they would say, like,
I remembered it 14 years laterand it was a two minute conversation.
And I'm like, how?
Like what?
What is what is going on with that?
And so I started to dig into the researcha little bit more and realized that that
that act of sticky recognitionreally turns on this notion of mattering.
(22:57):
Right?
We feel like we're achieving
something that's important to us,but that we are also accomplished.
We are accomplishing goalsthat are important to us
and that people are noticing it,and they're saying something about it.
And it's a fundamental human need.
The absolutely hundred percent.
The thing that I want to say here aboutthis is that,
you mentioned in this section
often that this mindset doesn't mean,
(23:20):
you've said it twice now, a simple
thank you with clarity
and reason for thethank you might be all that's needed.
And so I think a lot of times as leaders,we think, oh yeah, I need to do that.
I don't have time to do that.
Well, first of all,
we need to make time and thinking aboutit may not take as much time as you think.
And no, in fact,the the example that I put in the book,
(23:41):
the the person talks abouthow it's a two minute conversation.
She said the conversation tooktwo minutes.
And I remember at 14 years later
and it was like anything thatthis particular leader asked me to do,
I said, yes, or I mean, it just
it just ignited somethingcompletely different in her.
And when you read the chapter, you,and as was I when I was first learning,
you know, some of the strategies and tinynoticeable things, as I call them,
(24:03):
that helped to fulfill this mindset.
It is shocking, easy, basic human behavior
that we all learned in kindergarten,probably amplified.
But. That's another book.
Everything I need to learn, I learnedin kindergarten. That's all. Right.
And that was even shorter than yours,Paula.
Right.
So the second of the mindsets and you'veyou've written about this before,
(24:26):
but really important piece,what you call that a ABC needs. Yes.
The ABC needs are a powerfultrio of needs that we all need to.
And this is regardless of generation,
in our world of work.
And it is the as autonomy.
So we need that sense of what I callchoosing your own adventure.
I want the ability to be able to havesome control or say or work in decisions.
(24:50):
The B is belonging.
So that sense of community and connectionand that, the C is challenge
or growth, right?
We want to be growing toward goalsand getting closer to things that
are important to us at work.
I love that, and if we bring
that mindset with us,it helps us recognize those.
Those three things are so powerful.
(25:10):
And as leaders,we can start to find ways to to engage
those needs with our folks.
The next one goes to one of the veryspecific things you said earlier about the
the root causes of disengagement,and that is workload.
Specifically,you call this workload sustainability.
Yes. Working on that.
This was such a hard chapter to write.
(25:31):
I thought this thisI didn't want to write this chapter
because as I started to dig into it,I'm like, this is just too big of a
and this is an immensely difficult,
interconnected, complicated topicto start to unravel.
But I realized that I would not be giving
people, given thatthat was such a big driver of discontent.
I can't not,but something about that in in the book,
(25:53):
if I'm writing about mindsetsthat leaders need to have.
And so
really what it came down to and part of itmade it in the book and part of it,
is really good or better teaming
practices and really good recovery.
Or what do I do when I'm stressed?
How can I take a pause? Practices.
And so it's the teaming lens or focus.
That is what made it in the book.
(26:14):
There's a pieceto and we don't have time to dive into it.
But again everybody,when you get your copy,
make sure you go to page 75 when she talksabout why does overload happen.
And there's some pointsthere for us as leaders.
And they struck me.
I think I'm pretty good on most of these.
But a couple of these like failureto rebalance
(26:35):
when people leave huge impact.
I mean like we all knowyeah, that makes sense.
But we don't do it right.
Or we assume that peoplewill figure it out.
Well, if we don't give them some help,they aren't going to be able to figure
that autonomy is one thing,
but leaving them alone and ignoring itis something entirely different.
And oftentimes I think, especiallyin bigger organizations,
another one of those thingsthat you mentioned,
(26:56):
there is just an absoluteblindness to the impact, right?
We're going to and this is a bigger thing,but we're going to cut, 10%
of our workforce and then, well,they'll figure it out.
Well, we have to start to say, what?
Listen, humans aren't good at work.
We're not good at saying no.
And if we do things like that, like we gotto help people decide what to say no to.
(27:20):
Well, absolutely. And also,humans aren't machines.
And that's how we started to functionally,
I think, sort of think about themsometimes because when we cut
when you cut workforceand you keep the workload
the same or it starts to increase,that's going to have a consequence.
You may not careor you may not see it right away.
But it's there's going to be outcomesassociated with that.
And you in peoplejust that's not sustainable.
(27:42):
That word sustainabilitywas really important to me.
Because that's what I'm looking for here.
I'm not looking for usto take our foot off the gas.
I'm not looking for us to say we've got towork less hard or all of those things.
It's just thatwe've got to do it in a sustainable way
so that people don't burn out.
I've got loads of the burnoutstatistic still, you know,
fresh right now, I mean,and it's going in the wrong direction.
(28:03):
And so we've got to we've got to reallysee how we can marry those two things.
The fifth of the mindsets is about valuesand team alignment.
And I think, well, that's super important.
I think all of us can have a pretty clearpicture there.
But I can't have us spend time
and not talk about the fourth mindset,which is systemic,
stress resiliencebecause it's such a major
(28:26):
part of your work over the long termand not just this book.
So what do we asleaders need to be thinking mindset wise
around systemic stress resilience?
I think that word systemic is key,I think, and that's really a theme
throughout the whole book,is that we need to be thinking, yes.
How do we help individualsbuild the capacity or increase
the skill setsthat are associated with resilience?
(28:48):
But we also have to look at it.
Then what can we doto make our teams more resilient?
Because there's a great sciencethat tells us more about how to do that,
and even organizationally, then let's go.
Biggest picturehow do we help to make our organizations
fuel resilienceat the organizational level?
Because there's also great strategiesfor that.
And I was just I was so struckbecause I was writing this book last year.
(29:09):
And as I was digging into the research,I kept coming across like little pieces
and little snippets of different strandsof things talking about,
you know, surveys of leadersand what have you.
And consistently it was at least half,if not more than half
the very senior executives saying
that they didn't feelthat their companies were positioned
well positioned to handle the nextwhatever crisis might be coming,
(29:33):
which I it floored me because here we are
ushering out of one of the biggest
challenges and crises that organizationsin our world of work has faced ever.
And to say thatthat hasn't done something to help you
or want you to start to see, okay, well,what's next around the corner?
Or and it'sbecause they. Treat it as a one off thing.
Well,that will never happen again. And it.
Probably itprobably won't be a huge global pandemic,
(29:55):
but there's going to be lots
of other types of challengesand various different you know what you.
Just mentioned one generative AI, right?
I mean, like.
There you go. Right? Right.
For sure, for sure. So,
is there
is theresomething that you wanted us to talk about
or that I didn't ask about, that you wishI would have?
(30:16):
I think,
I always like to sort of distill this down
into, like, a, like a quick little,you know, what is this book about?
If I'm going to pick it up.
And I think that leading well in this dayand age comes down
to a couple of two different things,really.
It's really good teaming practices.
And I don't think we spend enough timetalking about what do good teams look like
and how do they function welland it's also really good human practices.
(30:40):
We have to come back to this notion
of meaning and valuesand caring about other people and,
you know, making sure that they feelconnected to others at work.
And we've got to do thatlooking through the lens of, yes,
we still got to make the moneyin the profits
and all of those good things,
but it's the good teaming practicesand good human practices
that are going to get youa really, really long way.
(31:03):
Excellent.
I want to shift gears and ask youa couple of questions that I always ask,
my guests.
And one of those is,what do you do, Paula?
For fun.
What do I do?
So I have a nine year old.
My daughterLucy just turned nine a couple weeks ago.
And so she and I love to travel,so we just did a quick little overnight
on her spring break, to Nashville.
(31:23):
And so that was herher new state and a new city for her.
So love, love, love to travel.
And I miss you.
Different things with a nine year oldin Nashville than you might do with a nine
with a 29 year old. Just saying.
It was so funny because I was tellingmy friends I'm like, wow,
it's a really different experience.
I didn't know there were that many candy.
Candy shops and boot stores and likeother things that we went into, it was so.
(31:46):
There is a tremendous ice cream shopthere.
Is there?
Imagine dairy.
Okay, we missed.
Anything shake I've ever had in my life.
I am not getting any payment for that.
Everybody, the American Dairy.
Longest lineI've ever waited for for food in my life.
It's a long story.
But if it was worth it, I'll do it, right?
(32:06):
Yeah. I'm a foodie, so I love that.
Go back to the adventure part. It's awe made a memory.
That part is for.Sure made a memory. And it was.
And I'm obsessed with sports, playingsports and watching sports.
So I there's a lot of,you know, golfing and volleyball
and I try to keep up with my runningpractice and all sorts of things.
So I love sports.
(32:26):
So, you hinted at during thewriting of the book, all of the reading
that you need to do, and I know whatthat's all like, but I'm curious.
What are you reading now?
Is there anything thatthat's on your reading list
or you've read recentlythat you want to share with us?
Yeah. So there's a fantastic book.
It just came out,I believe it was the end of March called
Why Workplace Well-Being matters by,Yann Emmanuel Deneuve and, George Ward.
(32:49):
And part of the reasonI'm not all the way through it, but
they've got some great studies alreadythat have been published.
Part of the reasonwhy I love this book is it's, I think just
it's hugely detailedwith the business case.
So if you pick up lead welland start to see some of
I mentioned some of their researchand in one of my chapters,
if you want to take a much deeper diveinto that research, go pick up that book,
(33:11):
because I think it's a game changerfor our wellbeing work at any level,
because it's starting to really putvery concrete business terms to it.
We will have that in the show notes,
of course, as we always do, before we,
well, let's just do this. What?
(33:32):
Where can people find you?
Where do you want to point people?If they want to copy the book?
Where do you want to go?All that stuff. Sure.
So the hub of all things, with my businessis my website.
So stress and resilience.com would be thefirst place you can buy the book there.
You can also just hop on Barnes
and Noble or Amazonand buy it, buy it there as well.
(33:53):
Also, LinkedIn is my social mediaplatform of choice.
And so, it'swhere I publish all of my work
first, my articles and studiesand things of that nature.
So lots of lots of coolthings coming up this year. So
awesome.
So before we say our goodbyes, Paula and Iand to all of you,
(34:13):
I've got a question that I want to askall of you as listeners and viewers,
if you've been here before,you know what I'm going to ask?
Here it is.
If you're new or you forgot. Now what?
What are you going to do with whatyou just got?
Like, this is useful stuff.
It's interesting stuff,
but it's not really usefulunless you can take action on it.
So what is it?
From what you just heard, Paula sharethat you're going to act on and
(34:35):
I'm I took my own notesabout what those things are for me.
But the question is,what would those things be for you?
How do you think aboutperhaps it's thinking about what do we do
to to create thisboth people and performance focus.
Maybe it'sthinking about one of those mindsets.
How do I what could I do todayto create some sticky recognition
or to rethink workplaceworkload sustainability?
(34:57):
I don't know what that thing is for you,but what I do know is that
if you don't take action on this,this will be of less value to you.
Then if you do.
Paula, thank you for being here.
It's a pleasure to have you back.
You're we're less than a dozen peopleI think have been here more than once.
So you're really glad to have you back?
(35:18):
I'm so honored. Thanks, Kevin.
I was so looking forward to this,and it never disappoints.
And so thank you so much.
It's my pleasure.
So, everybody, if you found this useful,take action, as I already said.
But here's another action.
Go tell someone else that they shouldlisten and invite them to join you.
Wherever it isthat you listen to your podcast
and make sure you're subscribed
(35:38):
wherever you listen to your podcastso you don't miss any future episodes.
Like next week
when we will be back with another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
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