July 17, 2025 • 39 mins
Have you ever felt like a fraud or doubted your accomplishments? In this episode, Kevin welcomes Aoife O’Brien to discuss the often-misunderstood phenomenon of imposter syndrome. Aoife shares research that led her to identify five distinct imposter identities: The Overachiever, The Comparer, The People Pleaser, The Procrastinator, and The Success Fearer, and explains how these behaviors show up and affect individuals and teams. They also talk about how common imposter syndrome is in the workplace, how it can hurt performance and confidence, and how leaders can recognize and support team members who might be struggling. Aoife also introduces her simple ABCDE framework as a practical tool for overcoming imposter thoughts.
Listen For
00:00 Intro to Imposter Syndrome
00:30 Welcome to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast
01:25 Kevin introduces his book “Flexible Leadership”
02:10 Introducing Aoife O’Brien
03:00 Aoife's professional journey and inspiration
05:00 Organizational culture and work fulfillment
06:00 Connecting imposter syndrome to workplace happiness
07:00 Aoife's personal imposter syndrome story
08:30 Being featured in a national newspaper
10:00 Defining imposter syndrome
12:00 The impact on individuals and teams
13:00 Imposter syndrome vs. confidence
14:00 How widespread is imposter syndrome?
15:30 Common triggers and barriers
17:00 What leaders can look for in team behavior
18:40 Examples of behavior linked to imposter syndrome
20:00 Real-world feedback from the audience
21:20 Aoife’s 5 Imposter Identities
23:15 The Overachiever
23:45 The Comparer
25:20 The People Pleaser
26:15 The Procrastinator
28:00 The Success Feeler
30:00 Aoife’s ABCDE Framework
31:00 Acknowledge
31:40 Build Belief
32:30 Courageous Action
33:30 Do It Anyway
34:00 Everyday Practice
35:00 What Aoife does for fun
35:50 What Aoife is reading
36:30 Where to find Aoife online
38:00 Kevin’s “Now What?” challenge to listeners
Aiofe's Story: Aoife O’Brien founded Happier at Work in 2019 because she witnessed firsthand the impact of poor workplace culture on both organizations and employees. Using her research-based Happier at Work framework, she partners with Global Talent & HR Leaders to cultivate human-centered workplace cultures that prioritize wellbeing, career growth, and meaningful impact. She supports employees to build their confidence, gain career clarity and reach their full potential, while driving increased engagement and retention in organizations. Her clients hire her to speak, train and deliver corporate programs. She has worked with global organizations like Meta, MSD, Ciena, AbbVie, Logitech, and HubSpot. Her award-winning podcast, Happier at Work®, has a global audience of over 125k.
This Episode is brought to you by...
Flexible Leadership is every leader’s guide to greater success in a world of increasing complexity and chaos.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Imposter syndrome.
Maybe you have it.
If you have a team, likely at leastsome of them are affected by it as well.
This is an importantpersonal conversation, but as a leader,
it's an important interpersonaland team conversation as well.
We are here today to talkmore about the imposter syndrome in ways
you might not have considered before.
(00:30):
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leaderslike you grow personally
and professionally to leadmore effectively and make a bigger,
positive difference for their teams,organizations and the world.
If you are listening to this podcast,you could be here live in the future.
For episodeson your favorite social media platform.
(00:51):
You can find outwhen those episodes are taking place,
so you can get them on your calendar
and therefore learn the informationsooner.
Two of the places that this showsthat these, shown
live are on podexcuse me, are on, LinkedIn and Facebook.
So those are placesyou can go and get connected with us.
(01:11):
Go to our Facebook group,at remarkable podcast.com/facebook
or our LinkedIn group at remarkablepodcast.com/linked in.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
(01:33):
in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
Leaders need a new perspectiveand a new set of tools to help them create
the great results that their organizationsand team members need.
And that's what flexible leadershipprovide you.
Learn more and order your copy todayat remarkable podcast.com/flexible.
Today's guest.
Let me bring her in firstand I'll tell you a little bit about her.
(01:57):
Her name is Eva O'Brien.
She founded Happier at Work in 2019because she witnessed firsthand
the impact of poor workplace cultureon both organizations and employees.
Using her research based Happier at Workframework, she partners with Global talent
and HR leaders to cultivate human centeredworkplace cultures
(02:18):
that prioritize well-being, careergrowth, and meaningful impact.
She supports employeesto build their confidence, gain greater
career clarity,and reach their full potential
while driving increased engagementand retention in organizations.
Her clients, her hire her to speak,train, and deliver corporate programs.
She's worked with global organizationslike meta, MSD,
(02:40):
Sienna, AbbVie, Logitech, and HubSpot.
Her award winning podcast, Happierat Work, has a global audience of 125,000
people, and todayshe's on the other side of the mic.
Today, she's on the side of the micwhere she's answering,
not asking if so, thanks for being here.
(03:00):
Thank you so much, Gavin.
Can I just say what an honor it is?
And thank youfor the wonderful introduction.
You are welcome.
Well, most of it's what you wrote,except for the stuff that I added.
So anyway, it is my pleasure to have you.
And I'd really like to start,
because your intro starts
in 2019, and I can look at youand I think you're older than six.
(03:22):
So why don't we sort of startwith a little bit of the
what leads youwhat led you to that conclusion
that, we've gotwe've got some happy issues,
that maybe we need to work withand some organizational well-being stuff.
So, like a little bit about your journeythat leads you to here?
Absolutely.
I definitely, older than six,that's for sure.
(03:44):
I had an almost 20 year career
in what the, in the US is called a CPGor consumer packaged goods,
what we call in Europe, fast movingconsumer goods, FMcG.
But on the market research side of that,and I had a really fulfilling career.
I really, really enjoyed this.
I, I was in various
(04:05):
different organizationswhere I felt I was fulfilling my potential
and I was really thriving,but I had a couple of specific,
encounters at work, let's say,
in a couple of different organizations.
And it just made me think that
maybe work isn't what I thought it was.
And there's an opportunityfor us to improve.
(04:27):
There's an opportunity for us to do betterthan what we're doing currently.
And that kind of led me to theto where I am today.
So in one organization, I felt like
it was a toxic organization in general.
I had a really high turnoverin another situation.
It was more that I wasn'tthriving in that environment.
(04:49):
And I went on
and I did a master's
in organizational behavior,and I asked those hard questions,
and I wanted to figure outwhat's going on here.
How can I help leadersto create environments
where people feel likethey're really fulfilled?
And so I asked those hard questions.
I came up with my Happier at Workframework, and I went on and I created a,
(05:13):
I went on and, created my
framework and I set up my business at work
on my podcast at work as well.
And here we are.
Around six, around six years later,here we are.
So there's the six years.
See, now we got the six years in there.
So, you know, it's interestingbecause I've certainly seen
(05:34):
some of the same things that you have.
I've, I spent I spentless time in corporate America
than than I have since then,but but obviously, like you
continue to work with organizationsand seeing a lot of those same things
as time goes on.
So people might be wonderingat this point,
okay, this is all really interesting.
(05:55):
Happier at work and all that except.
Kevin, did you bait and switch me?
Like I thought we were going to talkabout the imposter syndrome?
So I'm curious because when we decidedwe were going to have this conversation,
you gave meseveral topics that we could talk about,
and I said,let's talk about the imposter syndrome.
We haven't done anything on thaton the podcast in a while,
and we'll make sure that the other onesare in the show.
(06:17):
Notes for you, everybody.
But like, what's the connection or whyimposter syndrome work, which doesn't
necessarily immediately see feel like itgoes with happier at work.
Yeah. Interesting question.
So I'll start with the how did I getto talking about that to begin with.
And then I'll talk about the relationshipbetween the two.
(06:38):
So I was invited to take part in,
in a article.
So someone asked me for like, what's yourexperience of imposter syndrome?
And I shared my experienceand didn't really think anything of it,
but really got me thinking of my,
you know, as like,I've experienced imposter syndrome.
Here's where I think I've experiencedimposter syndrome,
(06:59):
put it out into the ether,and I didn't really think about it.
And about three months later, I wasin a national newspaper with my photo,
with my experience of imposter syndromeand those experiences,
I didn't know what imposter syndrome waswhen I first experienced this.
It was a friendwho actually introduced me to the topic.
(07:21):
I had recently been promotedto the senior leadership team, and I was,
I was recently promotedto senior leadership team,
and I had a conversation with her saying,oh, they didn't have any other choice,
or I just got lucky, or there wasall of these things going on in my head.
And she said, itsounds like you have imposter syndrome.
(07:43):
And since thenI've realized that I've had experience
prior to that, and I've also experiencedsince then as well.
So when I asked for more moneythan I thought I deserved, quote unquote,
and I kind of feltlike they're going to find me out.
I don't deserve this amount of money.
When I first started in business,I mean, you're surrounded by all of these
(08:04):
successful people or you're you'reperceiving them as hugely successful.
You're comparing yourselfto those other people.
So once I was featured in this, this,national newspaper,
I was invited then to speak about impostersyndrome on a regular basis.
And my own my ownbackground is in research and analytics.
(08:26):
So I decided I wanted to startresearching this area as well.
So I've carried out a couple of differentresearch projects into imposter syndrome,
which is how I came up with my fiveimposter identities.
Now, coming back toyour other question was about
how does that relate to happiness at workor happier at work?
Or is it just a happy coincidence that youget featured in a national newspaper?
(08:47):
Right?
But before you go to that second part,
I want to make a comment for everyonelistening or watching.
And that is that,
one of the thingthat things that fascinate fascinates me
about talking about impostersyndrome is it's one of those things
that I thinkeverybody has heard the phrase,
and I think sometimespeople just sort of nod, oh, yeah, yeah.
But I don't think people really know.
(09:08):
And I think you've sort of told usnow what it really is.
I mean, have you say a little bit moreabout that in a second? Yeah.
But let me that's one of the reasons
I wanted for us to talk about this topic,because I think,
people aren't always aware,
oh, I know what that feels like,but I didn't know there was a name.
Right. So.
So now give us the connection.
I kind of wanted to to to jumpin, to tell a little bit
(09:31):
more about the connectionand then we'll we'll continue.
Yeah. Of course. Yeah.
So for me,I do kind of struggle ongoing of
how does this relateto the bigger picture of happier at work
and how do I kind of placesand where does it go?
I it's something that I struggle withstill with like
how does this fit all together?
(09:51):
But actually when it'sI think it's strong.
I, I think I struggle with this becauseit's such a big part of my business,
but actually it's a small part of happierat work in general.
So if I think about my pillarsspecifically,
there's one pillar aroundneeds satisfaction at work.
(10:12):
And how do we make surethe people's needs are satisfied?
One of those needs is a needfor competence or feeling capable of
doing your job.
And actually,if we don't feel capable of doing our job,
we feel like total Imposteris, you know, it is that feeling of I'm
going to be found outas opposed to someone's going to help me
on the shoulder, knock on the door, say,this was all a terrible mistake.
(10:37):
You were.
My nightmare. Not
exactly.
My nightmareis that I no longer am talking about.
I'm dreaming about missing the final exam,which I.
It seems like everyone has had that one.
I'm having the exam.
I never went to class all semester, like.
So we just replaced itwith a different one. Right.
So what I.
But you've hinted at it now? Of course.
(10:59):
Info. But what?
How would you define this term of impostersyndrome before we dive in?
Yeah.
So for me, it'sthere's kind of three separate areas
to as it'sand it's beyond just self-doubt.
I think sometimespeople confuse it with self-doubt.
And you're so right.
Like once I startedspeaking openly about it,
so many people said to me,I've felt like that for a long time.
(11:22):
I didn't know it was just me,and I didn't know there was a name for it
I didn't know was a thing.
So for me, there's the two areas.
There's the
I feel like a fraud and I'm going to getfound out like that's area number one.
Then there's the
I just got lucky.
And then there's the other part of otherpeople think I know much more than I do.
(11:43):
So perhaps you got a promotion and you'reyou're feeling a little bit like,
oh, well, they must have seensomething in me that I don't have.
And therefore you feela little bit out of your depth.
So those are the three areaswhere it really, really shows up.
So, I said in the openbefore I brought you in
(12:05):
that I wanted us to think about thisas a personal thing,
like how is how,how or when has this impacted me?
But as a leader on a showcalled the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
I think we need to be thinking about thisin terms of how who on my team
might be suffering with thisand how can I help them.
(12:26):
I have certainlyI certainly have some thoughts about that.
But I'm I want to make sureas we go through this,
I wanted to say it again, for all of youlistening,
that there are two hatsyou can be wearing here.
I don't want you to just take offthe person like, oh,
I'm just gonna talk about other things,about other people.
But I also don'twant you to get so into this for yourself
that you aren't realizing that the ripplesthat you could cause, not only by
having it, but recognize, but being ableto recognize it in others as well.
(12:49):
Yeah. How is it different?
From just being confident?
Like not having imposter syndrome?
Is that what you mean?
For me, confidence is something that wecan project from the out, from externally.
So you can look at me and say,wow, she's so confident.
(13:09):
But actually internally.
And Ialways like to liken this to the swan.
So externally I'm composed and I'm
relaxed, but underneath the surfacemaybe I'm paddling a lot.
So from the outside we can't tellwhether someone has imposter syndrome.
They may be presenting ussomeone who's very confident.
Then internally,the difference between feeling this
(13:31):
great sense of confidenceand feeling imposter syndrome.
I think for me that confidencecomes from taking action.
And this is something that I talk aboutas part of my strategy.
It's about taking actionto build that confidence.
Your confidence is not going to come fromyou sitting and planning
and decidingand not actually doing anything about it.
(13:53):
You have toyou have to have to take action
in order to build up that confidence.
And that's where that actually comes from.
So you said, hey, I found out I had it,I found out
I had I recognize this in myselfbefore you talk to other people
and they say, well,yeah, I've experienced that.
So how broad is the impact here?
(14:14):
Like sothis is a kind of a two part question.
Like how many people in their careerwill feel it?
And then what's the impact?
So like how big of a deal is it.
And then if we have it,
how big of a deal is it for us?
You know, when we're experiencing it.
So yeah. What impact for.
It. Yeah.
So from the research that I've done, there
(14:37):
are 90% of people at any
stage in their careerwho will experience imposter syndrome.
I do wonder about that 10%.
I'm like, who are these 10% who have neverexperienced imposter syndrome?
All of that 90. It's around 5050.
So like 45% currently experiencing it
(14:58):
and 45% have experienced it in the past.
But it's likely thatit will come back again.
You know, if they get triggered,if they got it promotion,
they got a new job,they start in a new team.
If they take some time off
work, there's all of these thingsthat can trigger our imposter syndrome.
So that is how prevalent it is.
And I think it's reassuring to knowin a way
(15:20):
that so many other people experiencethis as well.
And the other.
Thing that other people are uncertain.
So here's here's my point to what,
was just said.
And that is everybody,if you think about your team, odds are
the researcher has spoken
that half of the people on your teamare experiencing it right now.
(15:41):
In round numbers rightnow, you have two people you might have
you might have both,you might have none. But
half of your folks experiencing this
right now, yeah, it's a big deal.
And nearly all will be ableto relate to it in some way.
Right? Right.
So what are you mentioned earlier.
(16:03):
Barriers and triggers.
Yeah. Let's talk about barriers.
What are the barriersand what are the triggers
as it relates to
imposter syndrome.
Yeah.
So sometimes it can present to us in a way
that it holds us back from taking actionor holds us back from doing something.
(16:24):
So you can think about this as,I want to go for a promotion,
I want to look for a new job, but actually
there's something getting in the wayand telling you that you don't deserve
is that you're not good enough,whatever it might be.
And then the triggers arewhen you're already in that position.
So I, I've just been promoted or I,
(16:49):
I'm about to go on stageand speak about this topic
that can
be really triggeringor it can be a trigger if you've returned
from a leave of absence from work,whether that is maternity leave.
In my case, I traveled for over a year,and then I came back to the workplace
and they didn't realize it at the time.
But that was a huge triggerfor me as well.
(17:11):
You think that everyone has moved on?
The technology certainly has movedon, even in that short space of time.
So it can happen either as a barrierso it's stopping you from taking action,
or you can be triggeredby something in particular.
So a promotion,a new job, time, time out of work,
(17:32):
trying anythingnew really is a huge trigger.
And so I think that's useful.
Again, doesn't mean we're going to knowif an individual in our team
is having these
feelings, but it's usefulfor us to realize that there's
plausible cause in the kinds of triggersyou just described, where
(17:53):
we might want to be watching our folkspaying a little bit more attention,
be a little more observant, askmaybe some slightly different questions.
Be, in coaching with them, a little moreencouraging all those sorts of things.
Anything you to add to that?
Yeah. No, absolutely.
And I think you touched on the pointearlier, Kevin,
this idea that we can't tellfrom the outside who experiences it
(18:15):
and we need to also addressnot just ourselves and our own behaviors,
especially if we're experiencingimposter syndrome
and the impactthat that may have on the team.
But we also need to bewatching out for our team
and some of the thingsthat maybe you can tell, aside
from the triggers that we mentioned,maybe if someone is working a lot,
(18:35):
if they're putting in a lot of hours,or if they're particularly quiet in
a meeting, or if they get quite defensive,if you challenge something
and they get quite defensive about it,that can be a real sign of it as well.
But it's not as if we're walking aroundwith, you know, with a signal that says,
I have imposter syndromeand even if you asked about it,
(18:56):
it's probably not somethingyou want to admit to either.
So there are some ways that we can dealwith that by giving proactive,
positive feedback to reassure peoplethat they're in the right role,
that they're doing the right thing,that they were selected for a reason.
And, you know.
Doing great work and they're.
Doing good work. Yes.
Yeah. Awesome.
(19:17):
So Clare sent a comment in,
and she says, I deliver.
I am remarkabletraining is a part of my role at Amazon,
and I so often I hear that I'm justor I was just doing my job.
People downplay their skillsand achievements. That's a clue.
That's not the imposter syndromeisn't the only reason you might hear that,
but it's certainly a clue.Would you agree?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
(19:38):
And I've taken that wordjust from my vocabulary.
I know this when I put it say
that I'm just following upor I'm just doing this.
I've caught myself and I'm like,okay, I'm, I'm saying
I wanted to follow up as opposed toI just wanted to follow up.
So I love that as a
like here's an example of howthis actually could potentially come up.
(20:02):
So, Clare, if you're still here,
you may have noticed, you may noticethat I'm wearing a green band.
And if you've watched before, youmay have seen me wearing this band before.
I wear one every day.
My wife will not let me wear it,with a tuxedo.
I'm not sure why, but anyway, this band.
Claire, this is for you.
This band says I am remarkable on itbecause,
remarkable as a part of our brand.
(20:24):
I wrote a book called RemarkableLeadership.
So, Claire, send me a LinkedIn note,and we'll see how we.
And we can have a conversation.
See how I can get you some bandsfor your training.
How about that?
Gary sends a note saying,
how how the mind can triggerquite debilitating self-belief.
So I, I, I referred to is keep your handsfirmly on the helm of thought
(20:44):
by James Allen.Great book by James Allen. Obviously.
And you're
getting some feedback from Gary as well.
If any, anything you want to say aboutabout Gary's comment before we move on?
I haven't heard that, but I'm certainlygoing to I'm going to check that out.
Look into it.
It's really interesting. Gross.Thank you. Thanks, Gary.
All right. And Claire was still here.
(21:07):
So you have youryou have your task, Claire okay. So,
when we decided had this conversation,the one thing I really wanted
to make sure that we talked aboutwere the your five identities.
So your research,I mean, a lot of people talk about
imposter syndrome, and it's all good.
What I think is uniqueabout what you've done
(21:27):
is you've identified these identities.
I have I have some, challengeswith the idea of identities
that we might get to, but I do want youto be able to just very quickly.
And I've got them all.
I can put them on the screenjust very quickly tell everybody
what these five areand give them a sentence or two
so they can start to think, well,I have some of these feelings.
(21:48):
Maybe what I think you'll findeverybody as
if it is already said is that is that if
you will
hear yourself in one of these,maybe not now, and maybe not for a long
drawn out period in your life,but you will.
You will haveyou will recognize some of these as we go.
So I'll just let you lay them out
and I'll for those watching,I'll put them on the screen as you go.
(22:11):
Brilliant. Thank you.
And what I do,the other thing I'd love to add to
that is I'm continuing to researchin this area.
So, you know, I,I love doing all of this research
into imposter syndromeand trying to get to the heart of it,
because oftentimes people identifymore than just one of those identities.
And I would love to get to a stagewhere it's like, I'm just this one thing
(22:31):
versus another, and maybe that's somethingthat we can dive into
when we're talking about this notion.
And a second.
Just remember,human beings are pretty darn complex.
I know.
I know, flavors must being around there.
I'm just saying.
So the
first imposter identityis the overachiever.
They say someone, maybethey call themselves an overachiever.
(22:54):
Maybe they are, overworking.
Maybe they're putting in long hours.
They're a perfectionist.
They want to make surethat everything gets right.
They don't like to get help.
They're doing everything themselves.
So that is the overachieveris someone who really is able
to achieve and succeedin whatever it is that they're doing.
(23:16):
They want to do it really, really well,
and they're very reluctant to get outsidesupport to be able to do that.
Then we have the Comparer.
The Comparer is the kind of person who,
as is,you know, kind of obvious from the title.
They compare themselves to other people.
And oftentimes this is comparing ourselveson favorably to other people.
(23:40):
So we're looking at Kevin, we're saying,wow, Kevin
has this amazing successful podcast.
How's he doing that?
And I'm never going to get anywhere.
And, you know, it'skind of feeling sorry for yourself, but
also comparing yourselfunfavorably to other people.
But you're also comparing yourselfto what you see on
the outsideas opposed to what you see on the inside.
(24:02):
And you're not necessarilycomparing the things that you're equal to.
So you're just perceivingall of the good things and other people.
Would I necessarily acknowledging thebrilliant things that you can do as well?
Then we have the people pleaser.
I want. To stop. Yes. Because,
I, I think that
comparing ourselves is natural as humans.
(24:23):
I think it's really importantthat you all hear what
we're saying here, and that is thatnot just that you compared,
but then you use that to create self-doubtfor yourself.
So, like the fact that you might compare,like, I don't think there's a human
that doesn't.
The question then is, first of all, it'sa really good point of I'm comparing
(24:44):
what I see on the outside,which might not be what's inside.
And I bet all of us have met someoneand gotten know someone better.
Like, yeah, pay no attentionto what's actually behind the curtain,
because what's back thereand there's a little more mess.
It's a little messy.
You're back therethan it looks on the surface.
And so yes, I think that's useful.
And I just wanted to stop there because,
again, all of us are going to seea little bit of ourselves in these things.
(25:05):
They don't.
The fact that you compare doesn'tnecessarily mean
you have imposter syndrome.
However, it absolutelycan be one of the one of the ways
that you do have imposter syndrome.
Yes, yes, that's exactly a brilliant wayto articulate us.
Number three.
Number three, the people pleaser.
So again,
(25:28):
as is maybe understood from the title,
this is someone who really wants to pleaseother people.
And this person puts their needs last.
So they want to make surethat everyone else is happy.
This is the kind of person maybeyou have poor boundaries or no boundaries,
or maybe you don't even knowwhat boundaries are.
That was definitely mebefore I learned that word.
(25:50):
So you want to make surethat everyone else is happy?
You're saying yeswhen actually you really want to say no.
Or maybe you don't even realize thatyou want to say no, but you're saying yes
when you should be saying, you know,because you've taken on so much already.
You just want to make surethat everyone else is happy
at the expense of your self,your health, your work
quality, all of those kinds of thingsso that it is the people pleaser.
(26:14):
Then we house number four.
This one'sespecially important for leaders.
And I'll tell you why.
Well, all of them can be here's here'smy take on this one everybody.
If you have that,if you have that people pleasing thing
and it's and it's because I'mtrying to overcompensate in a way
so people can't find outwhat's what I'm thinking behind there.
(26:36):
The challenge with thatis that as a leader, if it leads you
to burnout, it's important to realizethat you can't give what you don't have.
So if youif one of these is taking you to a place,
the same thing can be saidabout the overachiever or,
that if it's driving you to workharder, work longer, not say no.
(26:57):
At some pointyour mental fitness is going to falter.
And at that point, you can't serve peoplethe way you're trying to serve them,
like you stop yourselffrom even having that opportunity.
And yeah, it's really important.And I think that happened a lot.
Yeah.
For leaders such a. Good coach,a good point.
And I think building on that, someonechallenged me a few years ago and said,
(27:20):
why does that have to be sufferingfrom imposter syndrome?
Why can't it just be experiencingimposter syndrome?
And I said, well,that's a really good question.
But oftentimes when we have impostersyndrome, we are suffering.
And so to, you know, back to your point.
If you're saying yes,when you should be saying no,
if you're taking on more than you should,if you're overworking
(27:40):
to the point of burnout,then that's suffering.
You know,that's going to cause a big issue.
So I think it's important,I think, to to highlight
that,that it doesn't have to be suffering.
But oftentimes that is when we take onmore than we can actually handle.
So number four then is the procrastinator.
This is the kind of person who puts offtasks, puts off decisions.
(28:05):
Maybe they leave thingstill the very last minute.
Maybe when they have left something
till the last minuteand it all goes horribly wrong.
They blamethe fact that they're an imposter.
But if things go incredibly well for them,even though
they've left things for the last minute,they'll put it down to look.
I was just lucky.
It's not down to their talentor their skill at all.
(28:28):
So this can be positive in some ways,because it's the kind of people
who can work under pressure,but it can be negative as well if things,
you know, things are not getting done,if things are slipping, but also if you're
procrastinating on making decisionsor just not making decisions at all,
then that can kindof cause issues as well.
And then the last one is the success giverand the success there.
(28:53):
It's kind of a you might think,but who who would be afraid of
success isn't successthe thing that we all are aspiring to?
Isn't that what we want,but the success fear can look at success
as that's going to be additional workfor me.
I don't want to take on thatadditional work.
It's going to meanthere are more eyes on me,
(29:15):
and people will realizethat I have no idea of what I'm doing.
Therefore,I don't want to progress to the next level
because people will find outthat I'm a terrible fraud.
You know, there's all of these thingsgoing on in our head,
all of these reasons not to be successful.
And I use the term success loosely
because I know people have differentdefinitions of success as well.
(29:36):
But typically,if you're trying to get to the next level
or make any sort of move,we get in around heads and say,
these are all the reasonsthat we can't necessarily do it.
And oh, by the way, if,if I, you know, I feel I fear failure,
but if I fear success, I'm fearing successbecause if it gets if that happens, then
(29:56):
then there's going to be change. And,you know, maybe I really would.
I'm like, at least at least
I may not love where I'm at,but at least I know what it is exactly.
Better. That's helpful.
You know. Isn't that what they say?Exactly. Right.
So, our time, has gone quickly,which doesn't surprise me at all.
I, I do want to have you talk
a little bit about your very, I will say,
(30:20):
at least simple to remember frameworkfor overcoming it.
It's abcde e e.
And so, we could have spentour entire time on these five points,
but we really I really wantto give everyone a common understanding.
And we'll let let youeverybody know how you can get connected
with you to learn more.
But take a secondand just tell us that abcde e like,
(30:44):
okay, okay,I got it, I'm experiencing this.
Or I have someone that I know that I,that I know is experiencing.
We've had this conversation.
How do I how do I help them get over it.
You got five steps.
So they start with ABCd and E. Sowhy don't you go.
Yeah I, I deliberately made itso easy to remember,
when I first started, you think about it,it was ABC.
(31:07):
I've subsequently addedthe D and E as kind of bonuses, let's say.
But A's is all about acknowledging itand very, you know, rightly, as you say,
we acknowledge that it is impostersyndrome.
We can acknowledge it by sayingthank you for, you know, thank you
for trying to protect me, because that'sessentially what this trying to do.
(31:28):
We can acknowledge itby saying we have a choice
as to whether we acton the information that we have.
So, you know,who is the imposter is saying,
you don't deserve this oryou don't put yourself forward for that.
It's trying to protect youand keep you safe.
You can choose to act differentlyso acknowledge it and say thank you.
But actually I chooseto do something different
(31:48):
B than is all aboutbuilding up our belief in ourselves.
So it's all abouthow do we find that sense of belief.
And some people find this relatively easy.
I think a really great tipis if you collect feedback and store it
somewhere that you can refer back to it,I know certainly, you know, once a year
when I'm going through awards processesand I have to compile all of the feedback,
(32:13):
then it's it's really greatto have that to hand and to read it.
And you feel really good about yourself,and it helps you to elevate your belief.
Now other ways that you can do that
using coaching techniques, which I'msure Kevin, you're familiar with, will be,
you know, writing down, well, what are youwhat have you achieved in your life
and what skills are requiredto achieve what you've achieved?
Like, those are great ways to helpbuild up your belief.
(32:36):
Another fantastic wayis to surround yourself with people
who believe in you as well,and ask those hard questions.
Why was I chosen for this role?
What do you thinkI do that other people can't do?
Like all of these things?
It's really importantto help us to build up our beliefs
and then see is about courageous action.
And the reason I talk aboutcourageous action rather than just action,
(33:00):
is because it requires courageto take action.
When you don't necessarily feel confident,but by taking action,
by taking those small steps,it allows us to build up our confidence.
So pick one thing are you afraid
to speak up in a meeting, for example,and share what's going on for you?
Pick one small thing.What is that one thing?
(33:22):
Is it the actual act of speaking up?
Is it having a conversation
with someone prior to that meeting to say,I would like to speak up?
It says, seeking out the agenda in advanceso that you can prepare some notes,
like what is thatone thing that you need to do?
And then keep taking those small actionsto build up the momentum
and build up your confidence,because through those small wins,
(33:44):
you're going to startfeeling much more confident.
So I would encourage.
An E which are connection to that.
Right. Exactly.
Yes. So is he is do it any way.
So if you're not feeling confidentdo it anyway.
If you're feeling insecure, if you'refeeling nervous, all of the you know what?
Insert the excuse here.
(34:06):
Do it anyway.
And then E is for every day.
Because this is not somethingthat how you know, it's
not just something that happens onceand then it goes away.
It's something that we have to be ableto manage every day.
And I think by taking those everydaycourageous
actions, it helps us to keep in check.
(34:27):
It helps us to realizehow it's impacting us
and what we can doand what we can choose to do about us.
I love that.
So I'm going to shift gears.
So ABCd everybody acknowledge, believe,
create, take courageous action.
Do it and feel it and do it anyway.
And then keep doing iteveryday continuous process.
(34:49):
And that will help youif you find yourself,
experiencing imposter syndrome will helpyou move past it.
Shifting gearsbefore we finish, I'm curious,
what you do for fun.
Fun, fun.
That could be.
That could be f in your in your ABC.
(35:11):
ABC fun. Yeah.
Make sure to have fun every day.
I love baking.
That is probably pretty high up thereon what I do for fun.
I love traveling as well, so.
I mean, Tenerifeand the Canary Islands at the moment.
I do like traveling for for fun
and for work occasionally,but I prefer traveling for fun, I think.
(35:34):
So they're.
Those are the two big things.
So I have a license.
Yeah.
It looks to me
you could travel to Indianapolisand bring baked goods,
and then that would make Kevin happy.
You could do both. Yes,you could do both of those things.
So. So what are you reading these days?
I'm currently reading a book
(35:54):
by DoctorRoss Harris called The Happiness Trap,
and it's about acceptance and commitmenttherapy, and it's about all of the traps
that we as humans fall intowhen when we're living our lives.
So, you know, the thinking trapsand anxiety, all of these kinds of things.
So it's actually really interesting.
(36:14):
Not quite the same as my Happier
at Work framework,but it's interesting nonetheless.
The Happiness trap, we will havethat in the show notes, everybody.
We will also have a whole bunch of stuffin the show notes about how you can get
connected with info, but I'm curiouswhere do you where do you want to point
people, anything specificyou want them to hear right now
before they have to gosomeplace else to find stuff?
(36:36):
I would say the two best,well, three best places.
Since you're watching or listeningto a podcast, check out the Happier
at Work podcast, search Happier at Workin whatever podcast platform you're in.
My LinkedIn
profile is the one I keep most active,so search for me on LinkedIn.
I'm sure there'll be a link below.
(36:58):
Or if you're watching live on LinkedIn,then feel free to reach out and connect
with me there.
It's difficult name to spell,so definitely have a look
in the show notes for that.
And then the third place I'll say ismy website Happier at Work Dot, i.e.
or my Imposter Syndrome dot iie website.
So both of those cases have a huge amountof resources for imposter syndrome.
(37:21):
Workplace, career and culture.
Awesome.
Again,all of those will be in the show notes.
Just if youif you can just type happier at work
in your browser, you will likely find hersooner than later.
Happier at work i.e.
great place to start.
Okay, so beforeso thank you for being here.
(37:41):
Like thank. You.
I should go without saying almost.
But before we say our final goodbyes,
I have got to ask the questionof all of you that I ask every week.
Every episode is now what?
What are you going to doas a result of this?
Maybe hearing this gave you a
label for
something that you just thoughtyou've experienced and others didn't,
(38:04):
and if that's true,then that's perhaps helpful for you.
But there were ideas here about whatyou now what now what what can I do next?
And so that's the question here.
What will you do with what you learned?
Maybe you want to start thiskind of a conversation with your team.
And you could use this podcastas a as a starting point of conversation
(38:24):
on your team.
Maybe there's specific thingsthat we talked about that
you want to make sure that you take actionon, whatever those things are.
I know this, that if you take actionon something from having been here,
you will get far more benefit from the 40ish minutes that you just spent with us.
And I hope that you will do that. So
if I thank
you so much for being here,such a pleasure.
(38:47):
It was wonderful. Thanks for having it.
Thanks for being with me.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
And everybody.
If you like this, you better come backnext week.
Because every week, actually,if you're listening to this on the podcast
during July, we're doing more than onea week.
But regardless, over time, every weekthere's a new episode
of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
(39:08):
Make sure you come back, subscribewherever it is that you are listening
or watching this,
and make sure you invite someone elseto join you to listen as well.
If you do those things,you will have a remarkable day.
Thanks so much. Talk to you all soon.
Imposter syndrome.
Maybe you have it.
If you have a team, likely at leastsome of them are affected by it as well.
This is an importantpersonal conversation, but as a leader,
it's an important interpersonaland team conversation as well.
We are here today to talkmore about the imposter syndrome in ways
you might not have considered before.
(00:30):
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leaderslike you grow personally
and professionally to leadmore effectively and make a bigger,
positive difference for their teams,organizations and the world.
If you are listening to this podcast,you could be here live in the future.
For episodeson your favorite social media platform.
(00:51):
You can find outwhen those episodes are taking place,
so you can get them on your calendar
and therefore learn the informationsooner.
Two of the places that this showsthat these, shown
live are on podexcuse me, are on, LinkedIn and Facebook.
So those are placesyou can go and get connected with us.
(01:11):
Go to our Facebook group,at remarkable podcast.com/facebook
or our LinkedIn group at remarkablepodcast.com/linked in.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
(01:33):
in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
Leaders need a new perspectiveand a new set of tools to help them create
the great results that their organizationsand team members need.
And that's what flexible leadershipprovide you.
Learn more and order your copy todayat remarkable podcast.com/flexible.
Today's guest.
Let me bring her in firstand I'll tell you a little bit about her.
(01:57):
Her name is Eva O'Brien.
She founded Happier at Work in 2019because she witnessed firsthand
the impact of poor workplace cultureon both organizations and employees.
Using her research based Happier at Workframework, she partners with Global talent
and HR leaders to cultivate human centeredworkplace cultures
(02:18):
that prioritize well-being, careergrowth, and meaningful impact.
She supports employeesto build their confidence, gain greater
career clarity,and reach their full potential
while driving increased engagementand retention in organizations.
Her clients, her hire her to speak,train, and deliver corporate programs.
She's worked with global organizationslike meta, MSD,
(02:40):
Sienna, AbbVie, Logitech, and HubSpot.
Her award winning podcast, Happierat Work, has a global audience of 125,000
people, and todayshe's on the other side of the mic.
Today, she's on the side of the micwhere she's answering,
not asking if so, thanks for being here.
(03:00):
Thank you so much, Gavin.
Can I just say what an honor it is?
And thank youfor the wonderful introduction.
You are welcome.
Well, most of it's what you wrote,except for the stuff that I added.
So anyway, it is my pleasure to have you.
And I'd really like to start,
because your intro starts
in 2019, and I can look at youand I think you're older than six.
(03:22):
So why don't we sort of startwith a little bit of the
what leads youwhat led you to that conclusion
that, we've gotwe've got some happy issues,
that maybe we need to work withand some organizational well-being stuff.
So, like a little bit about your journeythat leads you to here?
Absolutely.
I definitely, older than six,that's for sure.
(03:44):
I had an almost 20 year career
in what the, in the US is called a CPGor consumer packaged goods,
what we call in Europe, fast movingconsumer goods, FMcG.
But on the market research side of that,and I had a really fulfilling career.
I really, really enjoyed this.
I, I was in various
(04:05):
different organizationswhere I felt I was fulfilling my potential
and I was really thriving,but I had a couple of specific,
encounters at work, let's say,
in a couple of different organizations.
And it just made me think that
maybe work isn't what I thought it was.
And there's an opportunityfor us to improve.
(04:27):
There's an opportunity for us to do betterthan what we're doing currently.
And that kind of led me to theto where I am today.
So in one organization, I felt like
it was a toxic organization in general.
I had a really high turnoverin another situation.
It was more that I wasn'tthriving in that environment.
(04:49):
And I went on
and I did a master's
in organizational behavior,and I asked those hard questions,
and I wanted to figure outwhat's going on here.
How can I help leadersto create environments
where people feel likethey're really fulfilled?
And so I asked those hard questions.
I came up with my Happier at Workframework, and I went on and I created a,
(05:13):
I went on and, created my
framework and I set up my business at work
on my podcast at work as well.
And here we are.
Around six, around six years later,here we are.
So there's the six years.
See, now we got the six years in there.
So, you know, it's interestingbecause I've certainly seen
(05:34):
some of the same things that you have.
I've, I spent I spentless time in corporate America
than than I have since then,but but obviously, like you
continue to work with organizationsand seeing a lot of those same things
as time goes on.
So people might be wonderingat this point,
okay, this is all really interesting.
(05:55):
Happier at work and all that except.
Kevin, did you bait and switch me?
Like I thought we were going to talkabout the imposter syndrome?
So I'm curious because when we decidedwe were going to have this conversation,
you gave meseveral topics that we could talk about,
and I said,let's talk about the imposter syndrome.
We haven't done anything on thaton the podcast in a while,
and we'll make sure that the other onesare in the show.
(06:17):
Notes for you, everybody.
But like, what's the connection or whyimposter syndrome work, which doesn't
necessarily immediately see feel like itgoes with happier at work.
Yeah. Interesting question.
So I'll start with the how did I getto talking about that to begin with.
And then I'll talk about the relationshipbetween the two.
(06:38):
So I was invited to take part in,
in a article.
So someone asked me for like, what's yourexperience of imposter syndrome?
And I shared my experienceand didn't really think anything of it,
but really got me thinking of my,
you know, as like,I've experienced imposter syndrome.
Here's where I think I've experiencedimposter syndrome,
(06:59):
put it out into the ether,and I didn't really think about it.
And about three months later, I wasin a national newspaper with my photo,
with my experience of imposter syndromeand those experiences,
I didn't know what imposter syndrome waswhen I first experienced this.
It was a friendwho actually introduced me to the topic.
(07:21):
I had recently been promotedto the senior leadership team, and I was,
I was recently promotedto senior leadership team,
and I had a conversation with her saying,oh, they didn't have any other choice,
or I just got lucky, or there wasall of these things going on in my head.
And she said, itsounds like you have imposter syndrome.
(07:43):
And since thenI've realized that I've had experience
prior to that, and I've also experiencedsince then as well.
So when I asked for more moneythan I thought I deserved, quote unquote,
and I kind of feltlike they're going to find me out.
I don't deserve this amount of money.
When I first started in business,I mean, you're surrounded by all of these
(08:04):
successful people or you're you'reperceiving them as hugely successful.
You're comparing yourselfto those other people.
So once I was featured in this, this,national newspaper,
I was invited then to speak about impostersyndrome on a regular basis.
And my own my ownbackground is in research and analytics.
(08:26):
So I decided I wanted to startresearching this area as well.
So I've carried out a couple of differentresearch projects into imposter syndrome,
which is how I came up with my fiveimposter identities.
Now, coming back toyour other question was about
how does that relate to happiness at workor happier at work?
Or is it just a happy coincidence that youget featured in a national newspaper?
(08:47):
Right?
But before you go to that second part,
I want to make a comment for everyonelistening or watching.
And that is that,
one of the thingthat things that fascinate fascinates me
about talking about impostersyndrome is it's one of those things
that I thinkeverybody has heard the phrase,
and I think sometimespeople just sort of nod, oh, yeah, yeah.
But I don't think people really know.
(09:08):
And I think you've sort of told usnow what it really is.
I mean, have you say a little bit moreabout that in a second? Yeah.
But let me that's one of the reasons
I wanted for us to talk about this topic,because I think,
people aren't always aware,
oh, I know what that feels like,but I didn't know there was a name.
Right. So.
So now give us the connection.
I kind of wanted to to to jumpin, to tell a little bit
(09:31):
more about the connectionand then we'll we'll continue.
Yeah. Of course. Yeah.
So for me,I do kind of struggle ongoing of
how does this relateto the bigger picture of happier at work
and how do I kind of placesand where does it go?
I it's something that I struggle withstill with like
how does this fit all together?
(09:51):
But actually when it'sI think it's strong.
I, I think I struggle with this becauseit's such a big part of my business,
but actually it's a small part of happierat work in general.
So if I think about my pillarsspecifically,
there's one pillar aroundneeds satisfaction at work.
(10:12):
And how do we make surethe people's needs are satisfied?
One of those needs is a needfor competence or feeling capable of
doing your job.
And actually,if we don't feel capable of doing our job,
we feel like total Imposteris, you know, it is that feeling of I'm
going to be found outas opposed to someone's going to help me
on the shoulder, knock on the door, say,this was all a terrible mistake.
(10:37):
You were.
My nightmare. Not
exactly.
My nightmareis that I no longer am talking about.
I'm dreaming about missing the final exam,which I.
It seems like everyone has had that one.
I'm having the exam.
I never went to class all semester, like.
So we just replaced itwith a different one. Right.
So what I.
But you've hinted at it now? Of course.
(10:59):
Info. But what?
How would you define this term of impostersyndrome before we dive in?
Yeah.
So for me, it'sthere's kind of three separate areas
to as it'sand it's beyond just self-doubt.
I think sometimespeople confuse it with self-doubt.
And you're so right.
Like once I startedspeaking openly about it,
so many people said to me,I've felt like that for a long time.
(11:22):
I didn't know it was just me,and I didn't know there was a name for it
I didn't know was a thing.
So for me, there's the two areas.
There's the
I feel like a fraud and I'm going to getfound out like that's area number one.
Then there's the
I just got lucky.
And then there's the other part of otherpeople think I know much more than I do.
(11:43):
So perhaps you got a promotion and you'reyou're feeling a little bit like,
oh, well, they must have seensomething in me that I don't have.
And therefore you feela little bit out of your depth.
So those are the three areaswhere it really, really shows up.
So, I said in the openbefore I brought you in
(12:05):
that I wanted us to think about thisas a personal thing,
like how is how,how or when has this impacted me?
But as a leader on a showcalled the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
I think we need to be thinking about thisin terms of how who on my team
might be suffering with thisand how can I help them.
(12:26):
I have certainlyI certainly have some thoughts about that.
But I'm I want to make sureas we go through this,
I wanted to say it again, for all of youlistening,
that there are two hatsyou can be wearing here.
I don't want you to just take offthe person like, oh,
I'm just gonna talk about other things,about other people.
But I also don'twant you to get so into this for yourself
that you aren't realizing that the ripplesthat you could cause, not only by
having it, but recognize, but being ableto recognize it in others as well.
(12:49):
Yeah. How is it different?
From just being confident?
Like not having imposter syndrome?
Is that what you mean?
For me, confidence is something that wecan project from the out, from externally.
So you can look at me and say,wow, she's so confident.
(13:09):
But actually internally.
And Ialways like to liken this to the swan.
So externally I'm composed and I'm
relaxed, but underneath the surfacemaybe I'm paddling a lot.
So from the outside we can't tellwhether someone has imposter syndrome.
They may be presenting ussomeone who's very confident.
Then internally,the difference between feeling this
(13:31):
great sense of confidenceand feeling imposter syndrome.
I think for me that confidencecomes from taking action.
And this is something that I talk aboutas part of my strategy.
It's about taking actionto build that confidence.
Your confidence is not going to come fromyou sitting and planning
and decidingand not actually doing anything about it.
(13:53):
You have toyou have to have to take action
in order to build up that confidence.
And that's where that actually comes from.
So you said, hey, I found out I had it,I found out
I had I recognize this in myselfbefore you talk to other people
and they say, well,yeah, I've experienced that.
So how broad is the impact here?
(14:14):
Like sothis is a kind of a two part question.
Like how many people in their careerwill feel it?
And then what's the impact?
So like how big of a deal is it.
And then if we have it,
how big of a deal is it for us?
You know, when we're experiencing it.
So yeah. What impact for.
It. Yeah.
So from the research that I've done, there
(14:37):
are 90% of people at any
stage in their careerwho will experience imposter syndrome.
I do wonder about that 10%.
I'm like, who are these 10% who have neverexperienced imposter syndrome?
All of that 90. It's around 5050.
So like 45% currently experiencing it
(14:58):
and 45% have experienced it in the past.
But it's likely thatit will come back again.
You know, if they get triggered,if they got it promotion,
they got a new job,they start in a new team.
If they take some time off
work, there's all of these thingsthat can trigger our imposter syndrome.
So that is how prevalent it is.
And I think it's reassuring to knowin a way
(15:20):
that so many other people experiencethis as well.
And the other.
Thing that other people are uncertain.
So here's here's my point to what,
was just said.
And that is everybody,if you think about your team, odds are
the researcher has spoken
that half of the people on your teamare experiencing it right now.
(15:41):
In round numbers rightnow, you have two people you might have
you might have both,you might have none. But
half of your folks experiencing this
right now, yeah, it's a big deal.
And nearly all will be ableto relate to it in some way.
Right? Right.
So what are you mentioned earlier.
(16:03):
Barriers and triggers.
Yeah. Let's talk about barriers.
What are the barriersand what are the triggers
as it relates to
imposter syndrome.
Yeah.
So sometimes it can present to us in a way
that it holds us back from taking actionor holds us back from doing something.
(16:24):
So you can think about this as,I want to go for a promotion,
I want to look for a new job, but actually
there's something getting in the wayand telling you that you don't deserve
is that you're not good enough,whatever it might be.
And then the triggers arewhen you're already in that position.
So I, I've just been promoted or I,
(16:49):
I'm about to go on stageand speak about this topic
that can
be really triggeringor it can be a trigger if you've returned
from a leave of absence from work,whether that is maternity leave.
In my case, I traveled for over a year,and then I came back to the workplace
and they didn't realize it at the time.
But that was a huge triggerfor me as well.
(17:11):
You think that everyone has moved on?
The technology certainly has movedon, even in that short space of time.
So it can happen either as a barrierso it's stopping you from taking action,
or you can be triggeredby something in particular.
So a promotion,a new job, time, time out of work,
(17:32):
trying anythingnew really is a huge trigger.
And so I think that's useful.
Again, doesn't mean we're going to knowif an individual in our team
is having these
feelings, but it's usefulfor us to realize that there's
plausible cause in the kinds of triggersyou just described, where
(17:53):
we might want to be watching our folkspaying a little bit more attention,
be a little more observant, askmaybe some slightly different questions.
Be, in coaching with them, a little moreencouraging all those sorts of things.
Anything you to add to that?
Yeah. No, absolutely.
And I think you touched on the pointearlier, Kevin,
this idea that we can't tellfrom the outside who experiences it
(18:15):
and we need to also addressnot just ourselves and our own behaviors,
especially if we're experiencingimposter syndrome
and the impactthat that may have on the team.
But we also need to bewatching out for our team
and some of the thingsthat maybe you can tell, aside
from the triggers that we mentioned,maybe if someone is working a lot,
(18:35):
if they're putting in a lot of hours,or if they're particularly quiet in
a meeting, or if they get quite defensive,if you challenge something
and they get quite defensive about it,that can be a real sign of it as well.
But it's not as if we're walking aroundwith, you know, with a signal that says,
I have imposter syndromeand even if you asked about it,
(18:56):
it's probably not somethingyou want to admit to either.
So there are some ways that we can dealwith that by giving proactive,
positive feedback to reassure peoplethat they're in the right role,
that they're doing the right thing,that they were selected for a reason.
And, you know.
Doing great work and they're.
Doing good work. Yes.
Yeah. Awesome.
(19:17):
So Clare sent a comment in,
and she says, I deliver.
I am remarkabletraining is a part of my role at Amazon,
and I so often I hear that I'm justor I was just doing my job.
People downplay their skillsand achievements. That's a clue.
That's not the imposter syndromeisn't the only reason you might hear that,
but it's certainly a clue.Would you agree?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
(19:38):
And I've taken that wordjust from my vocabulary.
I know this when I put it say
that I'm just following upor I'm just doing this.
I've caught myself and I'm like,okay, I'm, I'm saying
I wanted to follow up as opposed toI just wanted to follow up.
So I love that as a
like here's an example of howthis actually could potentially come up.
(20:02):
So, Clare, if you're still here,
you may have noticed, you may noticethat I'm wearing a green band.
And if you've watched before, youmay have seen me wearing this band before.
I wear one every day.
My wife will not let me wear it,with a tuxedo.
I'm not sure why, but anyway, this band.
Claire, this is for you.
This band says I am remarkable on itbecause,
remarkable as a part of our brand.
(20:24):
I wrote a book called RemarkableLeadership.
So, Claire, send me a LinkedIn note,and we'll see how we.
And we can have a conversation.
See how I can get you some bandsfor your training.
How about that?
Gary sends a note saying,
how how the mind can triggerquite debilitating self-belief.
So I, I, I referred to is keep your handsfirmly on the helm of thought
(20:44):
by James Allen.Great book by James Allen. Obviously.
And you're
getting some feedback from Gary as well.
If any, anything you want to say aboutabout Gary's comment before we move on?
I haven't heard that, but I'm certainlygoing to I'm going to check that out.
Look into it.
It's really interesting. Gross.Thank you. Thanks, Gary.
All right. And Claire was still here.
(21:07):
So you have youryou have your task, Claire okay. So,
when we decided had this conversation,the one thing I really wanted
to make sure that we talked aboutwere the your five identities.
So your research,I mean, a lot of people talk about
imposter syndrome, and it's all good.
What I think is uniqueabout what you've done
(21:27):
is you've identified these identities.
I have I have some, challengeswith the idea of identities
that we might get to, but I do want youto be able to just very quickly.
And I've got them all.
I can put them on the screenjust very quickly tell everybody
what these five areand give them a sentence or two
so they can start to think, well,I have some of these feelings.
(21:48):
Maybe what I think you'll findeverybody as
if it is already said is that is that if
you will
hear yourself in one of these,maybe not now, and maybe not for a long
drawn out period in your life,but you will.
You will haveyou will recognize some of these as we go.
So I'll just let you lay them out
and I'll for those watching,I'll put them on the screen as you go.
(22:11):
Brilliant. Thank you.
And what I do,the other thing I'd love to add to
that is I'm continuing to researchin this area.
So, you know, I,I love doing all of this research
into imposter syndromeand trying to get to the heart of it,
because oftentimes people identifymore than just one of those identities.
And I would love to get to a stagewhere it's like, I'm just this one thing
(22:31):
versus another, and maybe that's somethingthat we can dive into
when we're talking about this notion.
And a second.
Just remember,human beings are pretty darn complex.
I know.
I know, flavors must being around there.
I'm just saying.
So the
first imposter identityis the overachiever.
They say someone, maybethey call themselves an overachiever.
(22:54):
Maybe they are, overworking.
Maybe they're putting in long hours.
They're a perfectionist.
They want to make surethat everything gets right.
They don't like to get help.
They're doing everything themselves.
So that is the overachieveris someone who really is able
to achieve and succeedin whatever it is that they're doing.
(23:16):
They want to do it really, really well,
and they're very reluctant to get outsidesupport to be able to do that.
Then we have the Comparer.
The Comparer is the kind of person who,
as is,you know, kind of obvious from the title.
They compare themselves to other people.
And oftentimes this is comparing ourselveson favorably to other people.
(23:40):
So we're looking at Kevin, we're saying,wow, Kevin
has this amazing successful podcast.
How's he doing that?
And I'm never going to get anywhere.
And, you know, it'skind of feeling sorry for yourself, but
also comparing yourselfunfavorably to other people.
But you're also comparing yourselfto what you see on
the outsideas opposed to what you see on the inside.
(24:02):
And you're not necessarilycomparing the things that you're equal to.
So you're just perceivingall of the good things and other people.
Would I necessarily acknowledging thebrilliant things that you can do as well?
Then we have the people pleaser.
I want. To stop. Yes. Because,
I, I think that
comparing ourselves is natural as humans.
(24:23):
I think it's really importantthat you all hear what
we're saying here, and that is thatnot just that you compared,
but then you use that to create self-doubtfor yourself.
So, like the fact that you might compare,like, I don't think there's a human
that doesn't.
The question then is, first of all, it'sa really good point of I'm comparing
(24:44):
what I see on the outside,which might not be what's inside.
And I bet all of us have met someoneand gotten know someone better.
Like, yeah, pay no attentionto what's actually behind the curtain,
because what's back thereand there's a little more mess.
It's a little messy.
You're back therethan it looks on the surface.
And so yes, I think that's useful.
And I just wanted to stop there because,
again, all of us are going to seea little bit of ourselves in these things.
(25:05):
They don't.
The fact that you compare doesn'tnecessarily mean
you have imposter syndrome.
However, it absolutelycan be one of the one of the ways
that you do have imposter syndrome.
Yes, yes, that's exactly a brilliant wayto articulate us.
Number three.
Number three, the people pleaser.
So again,
(25:28):
as is maybe understood from the title,
this is someone who really wants to pleaseother people.
And this person puts their needs last.
So they want to make surethat everyone else is happy.
This is the kind of person maybeyou have poor boundaries or no boundaries,
or maybe you don't even knowwhat boundaries are.
That was definitely mebefore I learned that word.
(25:50):
So you want to make surethat everyone else is happy?
You're saying yeswhen actually you really want to say no.
Or maybe you don't even realize thatyou want to say no, but you're saying yes
when you should be saying, you know,because you've taken on so much already.
You just want to make surethat everyone else is happy
at the expense of your self,your health, your work
quality, all of those kinds of thingsso that it is the people pleaser.
(26:14):
Then we house number four.
This one'sespecially important for leaders.
And I'll tell you why.
Well, all of them can be here's here'smy take on this one everybody.
If you have that,if you have that people pleasing thing
and it's and it's because I'mtrying to overcompensate in a way
so people can't find outwhat's what I'm thinking behind there.
(26:36):
The challenge with thatis that as a leader, if it leads you
to burnout, it's important to realizethat you can't give what you don't have.
So if youif one of these is taking you to a place,
the same thing can be saidabout the overachiever or,
that if it's driving you to workharder, work longer, not say no.
(26:57):
At some pointyour mental fitness is going to falter.
And at that point, you can't serve peoplethe way you're trying to serve them,
like you stop yourselffrom even having that opportunity.
And yeah, it's really important.And I think that happened a lot.
Yeah.
For leaders such a. Good coach,a good point.
And I think building on that, someonechallenged me a few years ago and said,
(27:20):
why does that have to be sufferingfrom imposter syndrome?
Why can't it just be experiencingimposter syndrome?
And I said, well,that's a really good question.
But oftentimes when we have impostersyndrome, we are suffering.
And so to, you know, back to your point.
If you're saying yes,when you should be saying no,
if you're taking on more than you should,if you're overworking
(27:40):
to the point of burnout,then that's suffering.
You know,that's going to cause a big issue.
So I think it's important,I think, to to highlight
that,that it doesn't have to be suffering.
But oftentimes that is when we take onmore than we can actually handle.
So number four then is the procrastinator.
This is the kind of person who puts offtasks, puts off decisions.
(28:05):
Maybe they leave thingstill the very last minute.
Maybe when they have left something
till the last minuteand it all goes horribly wrong.
They blamethe fact that they're an imposter.
But if things go incredibly well for them,even though
they've left things for the last minute,they'll put it down to look.
I was just lucky.
It's not down to their talentor their skill at all.
(28:28):
So this can be positive in some ways,because it's the kind of people
who can work under pressure,but it can be negative as well if things,
you know, things are not getting done,if things are slipping, but also if you're
procrastinating on making decisionsor just not making decisions at all,
then that can kindof cause issues as well.
And then the last one is the success giverand the success there.
(28:53):
It's kind of a you might think,but who who would be afraid of
success isn't successthe thing that we all are aspiring to?
Isn't that what we want,but the success fear can look at success
as that's going to be additional workfor me.
I don't want to take on thatadditional work.
It's going to meanthere are more eyes on me,
(29:15):
and people will realizethat I have no idea of what I'm doing.
Therefore,I don't want to progress to the next level
because people will find outthat I'm a terrible fraud.
You know, there's all of these thingsgoing on in our head,
all of these reasons not to be successful.
And I use the term success loosely
because I know people have differentdefinitions of success as well.
(29:36):
But typically,if you're trying to get to the next level
or make any sort of move,we get in around heads and say,
these are all the reasonsthat we can't necessarily do it.
And oh, by the way, if,if I, you know, I feel I fear failure,
but if I fear success, I'm fearing successbecause if it gets if that happens, then
(29:56):
then there's going to be change. And,you know, maybe I really would.
I'm like, at least at least
I may not love where I'm at,but at least I know what it is exactly.
Better. That's helpful.
You know. Isn't that what they say?Exactly. Right.
So, our time, has gone quickly,which doesn't surprise me at all.
I, I do want to have you talk
a little bit about your very, I will say,
(30:20):
at least simple to remember frameworkfor overcoming it.
It's abcde e e.
And so, we could have spentour entire time on these five points,
but we really I really wantto give everyone a common understanding.
And we'll let let youeverybody know how you can get connected
with you to learn more.
But take a secondand just tell us that abcde e like,
(30:44):
okay, okay,I got it, I'm experiencing this.
Or I have someone that I know that I,that I know is experiencing.
We've had this conversation.
How do I how do I help them get over it.
You got five steps.
So they start with ABCd and E. Sowhy don't you go.
Yeah I, I deliberately made itso easy to remember,
when I first started, you think about it,it was ABC.
(31:07):
I've subsequently addedthe D and E as kind of bonuses, let's say.
But A's is all about acknowledging itand very, you know, rightly, as you say,
we acknowledge that it is impostersyndrome.
We can acknowledge it by sayingthank you for, you know, thank you
for trying to protect me, because that'sessentially what this trying to do.
(31:28):
We can acknowledge itby saying we have a choice
as to whether we acton the information that we have.
So, you know,who is the imposter is saying,
you don't deserve this oryou don't put yourself forward for that.
It's trying to protect youand keep you safe.
You can choose to act differentlyso acknowledge it and say thank you.
But actually I chooseto do something different
(31:48):
B than is all aboutbuilding up our belief in ourselves.
So it's all abouthow do we find that sense of belief.
And some people find this relatively easy.
I think a really great tipis if you collect feedback and store it
somewhere that you can refer back to it,I know certainly, you know, once a year
when I'm going through awards processesand I have to compile all of the feedback,
(32:13):
then it's it's really greatto have that to hand and to read it.
And you feel really good about yourself,and it helps you to elevate your belief.
Now other ways that you can do that
using coaching techniques, which I'msure Kevin, you're familiar with, will be,
you know, writing down, well, what are youwhat have you achieved in your life
and what skills are requiredto achieve what you've achieved?
Like, those are great ways to helpbuild up your belief.
(32:36):
Another fantastic wayis to surround yourself with people
who believe in you as well,and ask those hard questions.
Why was I chosen for this role?
What do you thinkI do that other people can't do?
Like all of these things?
It's really importantto help us to build up our beliefs
and then see is about courageous action.
And the reason I talk aboutcourageous action rather than just action,
(33:00):
is because it requires courageto take action.
When you don't necessarily feel confident,but by taking action,
by taking those small steps,it allows us to build up our confidence.
So pick one thing are you afraid
to speak up in a meeting, for example,and share what's going on for you?
Pick one small thing.What is that one thing?
(33:22):
Is it the actual act of speaking up?
Is it having a conversation
with someone prior to that meeting to say,I would like to speak up?
It says, seeking out the agenda in advanceso that you can prepare some notes,
like what is thatone thing that you need to do?
And then keep taking those small actionsto build up the momentum
and build up your confidence,because through those small wins,
(33:44):
you're going to startfeeling much more confident.
So I would encourage.
An E which are connection to that.
Right. Exactly.
Yes. So is he is do it any way.
So if you're not feeling confidentdo it anyway.
If you're feeling insecure, if you'refeeling nervous, all of the you know what?
Insert the excuse here.
(34:06):
Do it anyway.
And then E is for every day.
Because this is not somethingthat how you know, it's
not just something that happens onceand then it goes away.
It's something that we have to be ableto manage every day.
And I think by taking those everydaycourageous
actions, it helps us to keep in check.
(34:27):
It helps us to realizehow it's impacting us
and what we can doand what we can choose to do about us.
I love that.
So I'm going to shift gears.
So ABCd everybody acknowledge, believe,
create, take courageous action.
Do it and feel it and do it anyway.
And then keep doing iteveryday continuous process.
(34:49):
And that will help youif you find yourself,
experiencing imposter syndrome will helpyou move past it.
Shifting gearsbefore we finish, I'm curious,
what you do for fun.
Fun, fun.
That could be.
That could be f in your in your ABC.
(35:11):
ABC fun. Yeah.
Make sure to have fun every day.
I love baking.
That is probably pretty high up thereon what I do for fun.
I love traveling as well, so.
I mean, Tenerifeand the Canary Islands at the moment.
I do like traveling for for fun
and for work occasionally,but I prefer traveling for fun, I think.
(35:34):
So they're.
Those are the two big things.
So I have a license.
Yeah.
It looks to me
you could travel to Indianapolisand bring baked goods,
and then that would make Kevin happy.
You could do both. Yes,you could do both of those things.
So. So what are you reading these days?
I'm currently reading a book
(35:54):
by DoctorRoss Harris called The Happiness Trap,
and it's about acceptance and commitmenttherapy, and it's about all of the traps
that we as humans fall intowhen when we're living our lives.
So, you know, the thinking trapsand anxiety, all of these kinds of things.
So it's actually really interesting.
(36:14):
Not quite the same as my Happier
at Work framework,but it's interesting nonetheless.
The Happiness trap, we will havethat in the show notes, everybody.
We will also have a whole bunch of stuffin the show notes about how you can get
connected with info, but I'm curiouswhere do you where do you want to point
people, anything specificyou want them to hear right now
before they have to gosomeplace else to find stuff?
(36:36):
I would say the two best,well, three best places.
Since you're watching or listeningto a podcast, check out the Happier
at Work podcast, search Happier at Workin whatever podcast platform you're in.
My LinkedIn
profile is the one I keep most active,so search for me on LinkedIn.
I'm sure there'll be a link below.
(36:58):
Or if you're watching live on LinkedIn,then feel free to reach out and connect
with me there.
It's difficult name to spell,so definitely have a look
in the show notes for that.
And then the third place I'll say ismy website Happier at Work Dot, i.e.
or my Imposter Syndrome dot iie website.
So both of those cases have a huge amountof resources for imposter syndrome.
(37:21):
Workplace, career and culture.
Awesome.
Again,all of those will be in the show notes.
Just if youif you can just type happier at work
in your browser, you will likely find hersooner than later.
Happier at work i.e.
great place to start.
Okay, so beforeso thank you for being here.
(37:41):
Like thank. You.
I should go without saying almost.
But before we say our final goodbyes,
I have got to ask the questionof all of you that I ask every week.
Every episode is now what?
What are you going to doas a result of this?
Maybe hearing this gave you a
label for
something that you just thoughtyou've experienced and others didn't,
(38:04):
and if that's true,then that's perhaps helpful for you.
But there were ideas here about whatyou now what now what what can I do next?
And so that's the question here.
What will you do with what you learned?
Maybe you want to start thiskind of a conversation with your team.
And you could use this podcastas a as a starting point of conversation
(38:24):
on your team.
Maybe there's specific thingsthat we talked about that
you want to make sure that you take actionon, whatever those things are.
I know this, that if you take actionon something from having been here,
you will get far more benefit from the 40ish minutes that you just spent with us.
And I hope that you will do that. So
if I thank
you so much for being here,such a pleasure.
(38:47):
It was wonderful. Thanks for having it.
Thanks for being with me.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
And everybody.
If you like this, you better come backnext week.
Because every week, actually,if you're listening to this on the podcast
during July, we're doing more than onea week.
But regardless, over time, every weekthere's a new episode
of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
(39:08):
Make sure you come back, subscribewherever it is that you are listening
or watching this,
and make sure you invite someone elseto join you to listen as well.
If you do those things,you will have a remarkable day.
Thanks so much. Talk to you all soon.
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