July 31, 2025 • 40 mins
What are some practical ways to make an impact as a leader? In this episode, Kevin welcomes Margaret Moore and Jeffrey Hull to discuss how leaders can close the gap between science and real-world application. Margaret and Jeffrey translated hundreds of leadership studies into nine capacities. These are grouped into three levels: self, relationships with others, and the larger organizational and societal impact. They share what it means to lead intentionally, develop agility and authenticity, and build psychologically safe environments. They also talk about concepts like the "quiet ego," balancing compassion and strategy, and why conscious leadership underpins all other capacities.
Listen For
0:00 Introduction and Framing the Conversation
1:16 About the Podcast and Live Opportunities
1:48 Kevin Introduces His Book Flexible Leadership
2:15 Guest Introductions Margaret Moore and Jeffrey Hull
3:14 Why the Word “Impact”
5:26 How the Book Came to Be
8:09 Researching the Research
13:28 Three Segments of Leadership Capacities
17:32 The 3 Self Focused Capacities
19:39 The 3 Team or Other Focused Capacities
23:39 The 3 Organization Focused Capacities
27:48 Most Misunderstood Capacities
30:12 The Concept of the Quiet Ego
32:42 Book Takeaways and Closing Reflections
35:03 What They’re Reading
37:04 Where to Learn More
38:24 Kevin’s Final Challenge Now What
Their Story: Jeffrey Hull, PhD, and Margaret Moore, MBA are the authors of The Science of Leadership: Nine Ways to Expand Your Impact. Jeffery has focused on leadership for over 30 years, as an HR leader with multiple corporations, cofounder of a leadership development consultancy, nonprofit executive director, and coach to leaders across the globe. He brings years of translating science into leadership as a consultant, psychologist, and teacher at New York University and Harvard Medical School. In writing this book, Jeff is excited to see his chosen professions—leadership and coaching—getting the scientific attention and application they deserve. Margaret blends leadership, coaching, and science, including thirty years in C-suite roles, co-leading four successful start-ups in biotechnology and coaching, and two decades of professional coaching and coach training. For 25 years, she has been a prolific translator of science into coaching, training, and leadership practice. Margaret's vision for this book is to help bring scientists, leaders, and coaches together to foster leadership excellence and support everyday leaders far and wide.
https://www.scienceofleadership.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreywhull/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachmeg/
This Episode is brought to you by...
Flexible Leadership is every leader’s guide to greater success in a world of increasing complexity and chaos.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Leadership is
complexand has been studied for a long time.
But how do we bring allthat has been learned about it
and connect the dots for leadersin the real world?
Well,because you're watching or listening.
I know you care aboutbeing a more effective leader.
And so we're here to help you
(00:30):
figure out how to connect those dots.
We're going to do thatbased on research today, which makes it
all the better for our ownlearning and growth.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leadersgrow personally and professionally
to lead more effectivelyand make a bigger, positive difference
for their teams, organizationsand the world.
(00:54):
You are listening to this podcast.
You could have joined us live.
Well, I guessin the future you could join us live,
and you can find out how to do that,
from the live streamon your favorite social media platforms.
You can find out when we'rehaving those lives and how you can join us
by joining eitherour Facebook or LinkedIn groups,
(01:14):
which are two of the placeswhere these are live streamed.
You can go to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook
or remarkablepodcast.com/linkedin to get connected,
get advised and get this informationsooner.
Today's episode was brought to youby my latest book,
Flexible Leadership Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
(01:35):
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way
and that and that by followingour strengths, we might not always be
achieving the best approach in a worldmore complex and uncertain than ever.
Leaders need a new a new perspective,a new set of tools
to create the great resultstheir organizations and team members want.
And that's what collective leadershipprovide you.
(01:57):
Learn more and orderyour copy today at remarkable
podcast.com/flexible.
Well, with that, it seems like it'sthe logical time to bring in my guests.
So let me bring them on stageone at a time
and then let me navigate backso I can introduce them appropriately.
Let me do that.
My gueststoday are Margaret Moore and Jeffrey Paul.
(02:19):
Margaret Moore, MBA blendsleadership, coaching and science,
including 30 years in C-suiteroles, co-leading four successful startups
in biotech and coachingand two decades of professional coaching
and coach training.
For 25 years, she's been a prolifictranslator of science
into coaching,training and leadership practice.
JeffreyHall, PhD, has focused on leadership
(02:42):
for over 30 years as an HR leaderwith multiple corporations.
Co-Founder of a leadership developmentconsultancy, a nonprofit
executive director and coachto leaders across the globe.
He brings years of translating scienceinto leadership as a consultant,
psychologist and teacher at New YorkUniversity and Harvard Medical School.
Together, they have written a researchbased book titled
(03:05):
The Science of Leadershipnine Ways to Expand Your Impact.
And welcome to both of youand Jeffrey to you.
Welcome back.
Thank you.
Thanks. Great to be here.
Jeffrey was on the show like five.
No, six years ago.
We determined a few minutes ago.
So we'll put that link to thatin the show notes.
If you want to go backand listen to Jeffrey.
(03:26):
Nice conversationabout one of his previous books.
I really want to know.
I want to start. Actually, I'mgoing to start.
I didn't even have this in my list.I want to start.
The last word in the subtitleis the word impact.
I think all three of us would agreethat leadership,
especially great leadership,has the chance for great impact.
(03:49):
Why did you pick thatword in the subtitle?
Wanted to? Why do you want to take that?
I mean, I know that booktitles are all intentional,
like so there's a reason there.
I'd really love to knowwhy you picked that word.
Gosh, you know, I don't remember
all the reasonsthat we thought about, but,
(04:10):
you know,I think you'll relate to this, Kevin.
Leadership is more than business, right?
Business is making money.
Leadership is impact.
Leadership is.
And the way the researchersmeasure leadership is they measure
the performance of followers,the workforce, the employees.
(04:32):
It's not the leaders.
It's not about your performanceas the leader.
It's about what you leave behind.
You know the legacy.I mean, not everybody's into legacy.
You might not be at that stage of life,but but but that's
it's bigger than business or,you know, organizational success.
It is.
And its impact on self othersorganizations, the world
(04:54):
Jeff writes aboutyou know regenerative in the planet.
It is it is about moreand hopefully that lasts.
You know that data that shows that when,you know, people are billionaires,
have all this money, that money gets burntthrough in a couple generations.
It doesn't last.
But legacy, you know, and an impact a lot.
So I think it's about making a differencein a way that lasts and gets carried on.
(05:19):
Thank you.
So so Jeffrey,how did you guys come to do this book
and do this book together?
Wow. Well, that was quite a journey.
I even have our. Journey down low.
There we go.
Well it is it has been quite a journey.
And it's actually been, a lot of fun,a lot of hard work, great collaboration.
(05:42):
And, in many ways, for me, I'd have to saya joy to have such a great coauthor
and to work with someonethat I've known for many, many years.
And, I had started a journey
for a new book around leadership,
with, Barrett Koehler
about two years agoand was in conversations
(06:04):
with the publisher and editorand trying to hone in on a theme.
And there were a lotof different options. And,
at a certain point,
editor discovered, project, a smallerproject that Margaret and I had conducted
with the Institute of Coaching,where we are both leaders.
And this was coming out of the pandemic.
(06:26):
And we had with a group of our seniorcoaches, we had done a mini qualitative
survey of how things had changedcoming out of the pandemic.
And from that there was a written report
and the publisher read the reportand it was thrilled.
He was like, wow, this is so cool.
And we were like, yeah, but that was many.
And it was tinyand it was right out of the pandemic.
(06:49):
And he said, well, why don't you takethis kind of idea and expand it?
And I said, I'd love to do that, butI couldn't do that without my colleague
Margaret, because she was reallythe primary driver of that writing.
And he said, well,why don't you ask her? So I did,
and the rest is history.
I mean, we basically sat down togetherwith the
(07:10):
with the publisher and recognized that,
there was all this amazing research
available to us as coaches.
We had been translating, coaching,research for our coaching communities,
much of it was aroundleadership and well-being.
And we realized in our conversationthat a lot of this research exists
(07:33):
around leadership, like how to bean effective leader in today's world
has been studied for many, many years,but so much of this scientific
basis is locked up in academic journals.
And I don't know about you, butI think most of my it's safe to say that
most of my clients do not spend their timereading academic journals on leadership.
(07:54):
So it just became an obvious opportunity.
And for us to step back
and translate this research into something
useful, accessible and to a certain extentwith a coaching mindset.
Because we're both coaches,we're not academic researchers,
but we have been involved with the scienceunderpinning coaching for years.
(08:18):
And so it was just a natural evolutionto the let's
look at the leadership literatureand then find a way
to create an accessible, usable,
practical approach that brings this work,
this really profoundresearch to the mainstream audience.
Margaret,anything you want to add to that?
Before I ask you the next question?
(08:42):
The most important thing is that
we are channeling the scientists
that that's what we're doing.
You know, we we created the framework.
We organized it in a waythat's flexible and whole.
And that was our contributioncoming from a number of places.
But, but we are channelingwhat the researchers are telling us.
(09:04):
And at this moment in time,
when I was in MBA school 40 years ago,there wasn't a science of leadership.
Now there are meta analysis.
And and so basically,we're at a place where just take humility.
There's 212 studiesthat were reviewed in one study.
So it's not just one studies 200.
It's 150 of this,250 of servant leadership.
(09:26):
So there's a lot of data now.
And you can find the signal and the noise.
And so getting thatbringing that to everyday leaders
and coaches is really important.
I mean this wasreally important work to do.
Which actually leadsright into my next question, Margaret.
So there isa tremendous amount of research.
(09:47):
How did you tell us abouthow you researched the research?
If you will, like,how did you decide, like,
if you read all 212 on humilityand you read all 122?
And so, I mean, like at some level,help us understand
how you decidedto get your arms around it.
Like, I think at this point,everyone who's watching or listening has a
(10:08):
a picture of where we're, we're
I mean, we're going to unpack some of thisfor everybody.
But like, how did you get from whatJeffrey said, like, how did you pick
tell us about the research.
About the research.
Right.
Well, I should start by sayingmy first career was in biotechnology.
So I worked exclusively
with scientists and researchersand led R&D programs.
(10:31):
Biotech companies are basically researchand development companies.
So I wasI was familiar with reading literature.
The first thing you dois you go for high quality studies.
You know, you, you, you
we had a list of topics that came out of,
lots of sources, but there's a, there's
(10:53):
a lot of frameworks that are coachesuse that leaders use that are familiar.
So we started there, although we didn't
just take them as they were,we took the essence of them.
And then we know there's 100 topicsin leadership research at least.
So we kind of got these nine topics.
And then we organized like humility wentand servant leadership,
visionary leadershipwent into transformational
(11:16):
forgiveness and leadership is astudy is in relational.
So we, we, we,we looked for the main topics and
we looked for high quality studies and we,we looked for the, the top journals.
So we didn't do small studieswith 20 people or 50 people.
We, we went after the largest studieswe had already.
We were already familiar with a lot of it.
(11:37):
We just had to fill it out.
It took ittook about two months of gathering data,
putting it into lists, and then beginand then writing it up from there.
So we you start with the latestand then you and then you organize it,
and then you start to write
and you let it in the writing and it'sinformed by what the data said, you know.
(11:58):
So one topic led to the next,led to the next.
So there's a there's a natural order therethat comes when you put it all together.
So yeah.
So it's just good old fashioned workthat I would not have been able to do.
Well, I wonder if I'd say that.
So, You know.
(12:18):
You talked about the framework,
the there are nine, nine capacities,and we'll talk about those in a second.
But you started there likeyou had some done some things to do that
and then brought the research inas opposed to the other way around.
I'm not a big bit of both, but
we knew that we had the list of topics
(12:41):
just because that'swe've been gathering it for 20 years,
you know, what are the
and also they're topics that are commonto coaching and well-being.
That's the interesting thing.
Even though we stayedwith the studies on leadership,
they're both very familiar to usbecause we know about positive psychology
and we know about relationshipsand we know about transformation
and we know about agility.
(13:02):
You know, we already knowa lot of these things that just that we
so we weren't starting from scratch.
We we already had a pretty good command.
You when you coach people the same topics.
I mean I bet, you know,I heard you talk about your book
in another podcast, flexibilityis it today not strengths based.
You know, Peter Drucker got us this far.
You know, build on your strengths.
(13:23):
Now you have to become a whole.
You have to roundout your your repertoire.
So, before we
get to the nine capacitiesand and everybody, we'll list them out.
We are
we do not have time to dive into all nine,but I'm going to give
we'll talk about it a little bit.
But before that you've identifiedwithin the nine capacities
(13:46):
they fall into I'm going to saythree segments or three focus areas.
So Jeffrey, tell us about those three.
They really map with what we talk about.
We use different wordsand some different words.
But I'd love for you to talkabout those three,
segments and why they're all important.
Back to this word impact.
(14:06):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think that what Margaret was pointing tois that we realized
we could not cover the world.
I mean, it's a huge pantheon of leadershipliterature.
So you have to keep in mindthat as we went through
the journey of reviewing the analogyof the reviewing the studies,
we also had a coaching mindsetthroughout the whole time.
(14:30):
And we were thinking abouthow does this apply
in our coaching that we work with leaders.
And it startedsort of naturally fall into buckets,
because these are the kinds of issuesthat come up with our clients.
And so as we took the topics one by one,we realized that there is a flow.
(14:52):
There's a natural flowthat leaders go through.
It's like a journey they take that starts
with grounding it within themselves.
Like before you can start to fix a system,you have to start with yourself.
So we looked atwhat are the core capacities, as we call
them, or the capabilities that are relatedto developing oneself as a leader.
(15:16):
And then it felt naturalto evolve from internal to external.
And as we looked at those domainsthat are external,
it became very clearthat the first level of that is your team,
is your relationships
with the people you influence, the peopleyou impact directly, like right around
you are colleagues,your peers, your direct report.
(15:38):
So the first level was yourself,the second level was your team.
And working in with relationshipswith others.
And then ultimately, when we lookedat the most sophisticated research,
it starts to look at the bigger picture.
And that includes thingslike servant leadership
and transformational leadership and,and, distributive or shared leadership.
(16:00):
And that's shifting from sort of an I to awe mindset
and looking at the bigger picture.
And it became kind of naturalthat as we work with leaders,
those are the stageswe go through in coaching.
So why not make the journey in the book
applicableto the way it is in the real world?
(16:21):
Sounds logical.
You so you talked about self othersin organization.
We we tip I use three O's outcomes.
Others and ourselves and they really met.
I mean the same love,that same thing. Right.
And so what I'd like you to do now,
is so there are three of the capacities,
(16:42):
as you just said, Jeffrey,at each of those three areas.
So, Margaret,
here's what I want to do.
I want you all to give us.
I'll have you go back and forth like,we'll do the first three, Margaret
and Jeffrey,you can do the next three, etc..
But what?
I just want a couple of sentencesabout each because we really,
by the way, everybody,you're going to want a copy of the book.
So you might want to just take careof getting that order.
(17:05):
Now the signs of leadershipnine ways to Expand Your impact.
It's if you if you read the slide, it'scoming out in about two weeks.
And if you're with us
after the podcast comes out,it's already out.
So go ahead and get your copy.
So we're going to go deeply into each one.
But I want everyone to knowsort of what the framework is.
(17:26):
And then I'm going to ask yousome general questions about them.
So Margaret tell us about the threethat are the self focused three.
Well good.
So it starts with consciouswhich is that you are present.
You see clearly you'recalm and you're objective
and that those are hard things to do
(17:48):
because we have all this emotional noiseand busy mind here.
And so it maps to mindfulness,it maps to self awareness.
And we took it a step furtherwith emotional integration,
which means that the noise in your mind,the ego noise of a leader,
ultimately turns into a quieter ego.
That's the journey of leaders.
(18:08):
Which is why the more senior leadersspeak more slowly,
are more powerful,and see things more clearly.
So that's conscious.
The second, is authentic
and that is, the fire in us.
That's our values, what we care about.
So that's purpose, virtues,values, character, all those things,
(18:31):
they, they sitin a lot of different frameworks, but,
but authenticityis really the starting point.
But the second piece isthat you also really care
about the authenticity of others.
So that's the heart. The agile is,
the basis for everything.
As you know, you're you need toyou need to be mentally agile,
going from big picture to little detailsup and down the elevator.
(18:53):
You know, many times a dayyou've got to go
from adversityto to corporate to resilience.
You need to go from one extremeof a conflict to the other.
You know, you're,you know, we've got this polarized world.
You're basically bouncingaround your brain using all of it.
You know, up and down party,you know, that you just you might,
(19:14):
you know, you might as well be a,an athlete, a mental athlete.
So that's agility.
So those are the. When.
You're awake, you're genuine.
You care like your heart say you're inthis and you're and you're able to bounce.
Right.
And so the next three
are the the othersor the about other people about the team.
(19:37):
Geoffrey, walk us through those three.
Sure.
So when you, step from agileinto the broader,
you start to move outwardinto the organization.
The first step is going to bean obvious one, which is relational.
And it starts right, rightclose to home with relationships
(20:00):
with the people that you work with,with your peers, your direct reports.
And it looks like thingslike coaching and mentoring
and creating a spacefor psychological safety.
And, it's really about having those core,
connective tissues
with others,like empathy is in this space.
(20:23):
And we love the researchof a colleague of ours and Colin Fisher,
who did some wonderful work onhow not to be a micromanager.
And just to give you one taste of theresearch, you know, he and his colleagues
studied project management,and they came away with two key themes,
which are reallyI find them very profound with my clients,
(20:45):
which are guiding rather than dictatingand path clearing like
clearing the path for your teamto be able to follow through.
So those are sort of a relationalactivities that you get engaged in.
The next is positive psychologyor positive leadership.
And this we call strengthening.
(21:07):
Because it's really how do you createan environment that elevates
the capabilities and capacitiesof all the people that you interact with.
And this is where we do it.
Pretty deep dive into positive psychology.
And this has been around now for 20 years.
And there are core principlesof positive psychology around efficacy
(21:27):
meaning motivation.
And so the the research and positivepsychology is incredibly helpful
for coaches.
And we try to distill it downto sort of the core premise that leaders
can use to bring a qualitativelyoptimist type environment in
and stay also away from what we would call
(21:49):
toxic passive positivity,which is, you know, the,
rose colored glasses areeverything is always wonderful.
It's not about that.
It's about being realistic and optimistic
and building resilience and competencies.
So that's the positive domain.
And then
(22:10):
the third level and in the
sort of next outer domain is
compassionate leadership, which is a
relatively new kid on the blockin terms of research.
And I think Margaret and I kind of debatedlike, where would we put compassion
and how does this fit inand what but what we came to realize
(22:30):
is that compassion is sort of this
integration of all that
has come before consciousness,agility, positive, relational,
and then beginningto see how that impacts the wider world.
And we we chose to use the word resonate.
Like if you're really a compassionateleader,
(22:51):
you will be able to resonatewith the pain,
the suffering, the challenges, the traumasthat we all go through as human beings.
And to actually get tothat place is more than empathy.
It's broader, it's deeper, and it's truly
a more sophisticated wayof being in the world.
And there's some really good studiesaround compassion.
(23:13):
It's becoming, I would say it's sort ofone of the more recent areas of research.
So those are the three in that domainmoving outward.
And then most everyone is.
Here is whatI would call a capital leader.
You have a leadership titleor role of some sort.
And so at some pointyou have to talk about this third segment,
this third domain, that beingthe organizational results piece.
(23:37):
So Margaret,why don't you talk about the last three.
To do that. Yeah.
Well, the next one, I was just doing
a workshop on this in Mexico last weekend,and this one had the lowest score.
So shared leadership.
So sharedleadership is where, as a leader,
(23:59):
before you,you know, proclaim from your perch
the vision, the purpose and the strategy,
you, in fact, share the process
of building those with you,not just the top C-suite
and the top SVP that believes, but you getyou get it down as far as you can go.
(24:21):
And there's a wonderful storyis called Open Strategy.
That was done it with a European,
insurance company with 50,000 employees,brand
new CEO stock pricedoing terribly in four months.
To turn it around, he got a group of 40frontline like shop floor.
Like people in the insurancecompany took them four months
(24:44):
before they could talk in his language,before they could actually,
they could actually share their ideasin a way that was system wide.
And when they put out their newstrategic plan,
the share value went up $18 billion.
So it's worthwhile.
But it took months to get these peoplewho are not used to talking the language.
(25:05):
So that's that's like shared leadershipat the on the front lines.
Is that you?
Because as a leader, you say, I don't havetime to bring these people along.
I they don't understandwhat's going on in the world.
You know, they've only got,you know, this bird's eye view.
But when you go the extra mileand you know, Kevin,
this is probably our answer to engagement
is to engage people in the directionsetting.
(25:27):
Right.
That's it doesn't get talked about,but I think that's the real deal.
So that's the hardest one.
Servant leadership is hard because youyou and most of us do this in small doses,
not as we're not Mother Theresa, but youreally are in this place of of service.
And you and you, you're humble.
You forget about yourself.
(25:48):
You're there, to to to help othersdo their best.
And so,we all could use a little more of that.
And it's a bit more than authentic valuesbecause your values may still not,
might not go as far as service.
The last one, which is the penultimate,because everything up
until this point makes it gobetter, is transformational.
(26:09):
It's the most studied leadership topic.
It's actually boring because peoplehave known for about it for so long.
You know,
40 years it's been around Bernard Bousquetand founded Leadership Quarterly.
But it turns out there'slots of things that you can add to it.
There's now sides of inspiration.
So if you're going to bean inspirational leader,
what do you do to make that happen?
How do you get people to lift their feetoff the ground,
(26:30):
turn the light on, and see possibilitiesthat I've never seen before?
You know,now there's some some ways to do that.
And, and my favorite
is this concept of novel problemformulation.
Okay.
So transformation of leadershipis about taking your challenge,
even your biggest challenge, andturning it into strength and opportunity.
This is the answer to Peter Drucker.
(26:51):
You know, you take the worstand you turn it into the best.
And and the science around
formulating problems says that the biggerand the more diverse
your your landscape of the problem,the more perspectives you've
you've considered,the more innovative the solution.
So this is where you're agile,looking at all these different approaches.
(27:13):
You're compassionateto all the different voices.
And when you put it all together, andthen you add a little bit of intuition,
you get this transformational solution,which is all goes better
when all the other things are workingwell.
So now everybody,you have the overview of the framework
and the capacities in in connectionto self, others and organization.
(27:38):
And so I'm curious, I'm going to ask youboth this question where we do you go
first, Jeffrey, of the nine,
which do you think is either
misunderstood or misapplied?
Most,
The to the top.
(27:59):
I, I'm not sure I can give you one,
but to pop into my mind immediately.
So and I always follow my intuition
the they are conscious leadershipand servant leadership.
And I think maybe the reason they bothpop into my mind is that,
there's a lot of
overlap between being a servant,which is kind of leading from behind
(28:22):
and requiring humilityand respect for yourself and for others.
And conscious leadership is challenging
because it requires you to be willingto be objective about yourself.
And then that leads to the questionof how do I become objective about myself?
(28:42):
Is it even possible to become objectiveor see what we like to call see clearly?
And it requires feedback and requires you
to actually listen to how you're perceive.
Pay attentionto how you're perceived by others.
And I think this isthese are very challenging for all of us.
(29:03):
Right.
We may think we're in serviceof a bigger picture,
but we may not be awarethat we're being kind of autocratic
or we are taking up a lot of space,or we're not listening,
or we're spending all our timeon our phone,
you know, we'reall of those things are connected, right?
Because if you're not aware and presentto how you show up in the world
(29:29):
as a leader, your physical,your emotional, your mental state,
you can't really
come across as a true servant
and all of the others become problematic.
So to answer your question,I think conscious leadership
is the reason why it's the groundon which everything else is built
(29:51):
is the most challenging
but the core,and we spend quite a bit of time talking
about that in terms of the researchand in terms of coaching.
There's case studies in the book about,
we actually recommendyou work through some of those issues,
because that's going to be the foundationto be successful.
(30:14):
Margaret,do you have a different answer or anything
you want to add?
I want to add
one thing about compassionthat won't be obvious,
because I think it comes from a place of,a deep understanding of all forces
operating when you are and respect,which is the basis for strategy.
(30:34):
So compassion,
if you really understand,listen to and respect and appreciate
and you don't treat one groupdifferently than another
and you really get it all, you are primedfor the best possible strategy.
So I don't think it's obviousthat compassion is the basis
for great strategy.
And, and so I would, I would add thatand then that one thing that we're
(30:57):
bringing to everybody's attentionis this concept called a quiet ego.
And I want to point that out as well,because right now
we don't have a lot of role modelsof quieting.
There's a, there's a, there's a,
over indexing of our emotions,
as if that they're really importantfor everyone to experience.
(31:20):
But then that's not true.
The most impact you can,you can use your emotions,
but they're like a dog on a leash.
You only let it run once in a while.
And I think,I think that the better you are
at bringing the quiet ego to the fore,the more impactful you are.
You know? You know,
you use the noise once in a while,but you you use it very carefully.
(31:44):
I want to say
to everybody listening that,I actually had,
a lower thirdI could have put up there about ego.
And you answer it and you mentioned itearlier and you mentioned again, Margaret.
And so I hope that all of you
who are listening, like,did a mental underline of that,
I find having done
around 500 of these, that there'susually at least one thing from an episode
(32:08):
that is the thing that I will rememberand connect to my guests.
And I'm confident,from reading the book, that's
I mean, there's lots of thingsI love about this book, and,
and you've done a real service aroundwhat you've done, around
researching the research,as I said earlier.
But it's just this idea of the quiet egoand quieting our ego
(32:29):
is probably the thingthat I will personally take from
from our conversation and from the bookas probably the biggest thing.
I think it's a really important point.
You talked about itin a really useful way,
both in the bookand in what you just said.
Marcus, I really appreciate that.
Before we finish,
I have a question that I always ask.
(32:49):
I'm going to ask both of you,and I guess it's your turn, Jeffrey.
So you get to go first. You already.
This is the only thing that that everybodythat that that everybody is
listening knows, they knewI was going to ask them a lot to ask.
And Jeffreysaid, well, I've got like eight.
I said, well, maybe get this eight.
The question is, what are youwhat are you reading these days?
(33:10):
Yeah.
No, I appreciate thatyou gave us a little bit of a heads up,
because otherwiseI'd be looking at my Kindle and saying,
oh, God,what am I reading in the last 24 hours?
Which is why I try to do it ahead.
Exactly right.
But it's actually a really great questionand great timing to because
especially connecting the dotswith the quiet ego,
which we did focus on a lotin the book and the research,
(33:34):
from a wonderful book.
And Margaret, remind methe name of the book, Transforming
Formative Self,Transforming of Self by Jack Bauer.
I'll let Margaret say more about that,but that's also an amazing book.
The book that I just finishedreading that connects
all of this, though,is called The Trauma of Everyday Life
(33:55):
by a wonderful Buddhist
psychiatrist named Brian Epstein.
In New York, he wrote a bookcalled Thoughts Without a Thinker,
which is a very famous bookfrom quite a few years ago,
and one of his most recent onesis called The Trauma of Everyday Life.
And it's really beautiful bookand it's a lot about bringing
(34:16):
some of the baseline Buddhistprinciples into our everyday world.
And then I'll quickly mention another onethat I love right now called Rise Above,
which is written by a good friend ofof mine and of the Institute of Coaching,
Barry Scott Kaufman, who has
(34:36):
best known for
sort of updating Maslow'shierarchy of needs
with his recent book on
The Transcendence self.I think it's called.
But his newest book is called Rise Above,and it's, it's
also really, really excellent, approachto bringing,
what he callsmoving out of a victim mindset.
(35:00):
So I encourage you to read both of thosealong with ours.
All right.
Well, absolutely.
Margaret, what are you reading these days?
Right.
So, there's a wonderful new documentaryout on Mark Twain.
So start there because he's
an amazing catalogerof the human experience.
(35:20):
And I'm reading the new book called James.
I just barely started Percival Everett,which is the black
person's perspective on, Huckleberry Finn.
So I'm looking forward to thatas a mind expander.
The other thing,
is that I'm reading a lot about, I,
including Harare's new book.
(35:42):
So I, I do think that humansare downloading
into the AI psyche their own patterns.
So, you know,like if you just compare different
AI services,they have different personalities.
And, and, I think our book providesa simple framework
(36:02):
for people developing AI,for people developing AI.
Sorry for AI to help leadersand for AI to lead.
I think we have to make a conscious effort
to download into the AI psyche
what we need and not this competitive.
(36:23):
I describe a lot of AI, like a virus,
which means it's it's gotthe energy of one to take over its host.
You can feel it,
but the living world is one of cells.
And cells live in cooperationwith their fellow cells.
And and we need to turnAI into, more of a living,
(36:45):
cooperative, collaborative mode.
And I do think thatthat requires real leaning.
And so I'm, I'm trying to understand this,like ghosts, including coaching
AI leaders as much as I can to do
what we can to help.
Help human leaders lead AI.
(37:07):
We've been talkingwith the authors of the new book,
The Science of Leadership Nine Waysto Impact Me, to Expand Your Impact.
And I know that you can learnmore at The Science of leadership.com,
but either of you want to tell us
a little bit moreabout where they can connect with you,
where they can learn more, or is thereanything else that you want to tell us
about connecting and reaching out to youbefore we reach before we finish up?
(37:33):
I just want to thank you for thisgreat conversation.
Mostly,
you've got the website thereon your screen, and the book comes out
July 15th,so it may already be out or not,
depending upon when this gets,
when you get to just to see thisand I think
I would just add thatwe love being in dialog with our readers,
(37:56):
as we've loved being in dialogwith the researchers.
As Margaret said at the outset,this book has been
kind of an honoring of the scientists.
And so if you are a researcheror you actually are interested
in that side of things, reach out to us.
I'm on LinkedInand Margaret's on LinkedIn.
(38:16):
We love conversations. We're coaches.
So we're people persons.
We, you know,writing books is not our primary focus.
So we look forwardto hearing from everyone.
Science of leadership.com everybody.
Now before we finish, I'm going to askall of you the question
and then asking my guest question,I'm going to ask you a question
(38:37):
is the questionI ask you every single episode.
If you've been here before,you know what I'm about to ask you.
The question is, now what?
What are you going to do with whatyou just heard?
Maybe you're going to go buy a book or 2or 5, depending
on which ones that you found interesting.
Maybe there's hopefully there'smultiple things that you just heard
(38:58):
that you found interesting,that stopped you in your tracks mentally.
The question is, what are you going to dowith those things?
Not just, hey, that was interesting.
Hey, I really ought to do somethingabout that.
What am I going to do?
What are you going to actually do?What action will you take?
Because until you take action,until you move from knowing to doing
(39:18):
nothing is really significantlygoing to change.
And so I encourage you to do that.
When you do that, you get far more valuefrom the time that you just spent with us.
And so I want to thank Margaretand Jeffrey again for being here,
and to remind all of youthat if you love this, tell
somebody elsethat they do come watch or listen.
And wherever you happen to be watchingor listening to this,
(39:40):
make sure you subscribeso you don't miss any future episodes.
Because next week,
I promise there'll be another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Leadership is
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But how do we bring allthat has been learned about it
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Well,because you're watching or listening.
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And so we're here to help you
(00:30):
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Well, with that, it seems like it'sthe logical time to bring in my guests.
So let me bring them on stageone at a time
and then let me navigate backso I can introduce them appropriately.
Let me do that.
My gueststoday are Margaret Moore and Jeffrey Paul.
(02:19):
Margaret Moore, MBA blendsleadership, coaching and science,
including 30 years in C-suiteroles, co-leading four successful startups
in biotech and coachingand two decades of professional coaching
and coach training.
For 25 years, she's been a prolifictranslator of science
into coaching,training and leadership practice.
JeffreyHall, PhD, has focused on leadership
(02:42):
for over 30 years as an HR leaderwith multiple corporations.
Co-Founder of a leadership developmentconsultancy, a nonprofit
executive director and coachto leaders across the globe.
He brings years of translating scienceinto leadership as a consultant,
psychologist and teacher at New YorkUniversity and Harvard Medical School.
Together, they have written a researchbased book titled
(03:05):
The Science of Leadershipnine Ways to Expand Your Impact.
And welcome to both of youand Jeffrey to you.
Welcome back.
Thank you.
Thanks. Great to be here.
Jeffrey was on the show like five.
No, six years ago.
We determined a few minutes ago.
So we'll put that link to thatin the show notes.
If you want to go backand listen to Jeffrey.
(03:26):
Nice conversationabout one of his previous books.
I really want to know.
I want to start. Actually, I'mgoing to start.
I didn't even have this in my list.I want to start.
The last word in the subtitleis the word impact.
I think all three of us would agreethat leadership,
especially great leadership,has the chance for great impact.
(03:49):
Why did you pick thatword in the subtitle?
Wanted to? Why do you want to take that?
I mean, I know that booktitles are all intentional,
like so there's a reason there.
I'd really love to knowwhy you picked that word.
Gosh, you know, I don't remember
all the reasonsthat we thought about, but,
(04:10):
you know,I think you'll relate to this, Kevin.
Leadership is more than business, right?
Business is making money.
Leadership is impact.
Leadership is.
And the way the researchersmeasure leadership is they measure
the performance of followers,the workforce, the employees.
(04:32):
It's not the leaders.
It's not about your performanceas the leader.
It's about what you leave behind.
You know the legacy.I mean, not everybody's into legacy.
You might not be at that stage of life,but but but that's
it's bigger than business or,you know, organizational success.
It is.
And its impact on self othersorganizations, the world
(04:54):
Jeff writes aboutyou know regenerative in the planet.
It is it is about moreand hopefully that lasts.
You know that data that shows that when,you know, people are billionaires,
have all this money, that money gets burntthrough in a couple generations.
It doesn't last.
But legacy, you know, and an impact a lot.
So I think it's about making a differencein a way that lasts and gets carried on.
(05:19):
Thank you.
So so Jeffrey,how did you guys come to do this book
and do this book together?
Wow. Well, that was quite a journey.
I even have our. Journey down low.
There we go.
Well it is it has been quite a journey.
And it's actually been, a lot of fun,a lot of hard work, great collaboration.
(05:42):
And, in many ways, for me, I'd have to saya joy to have such a great coauthor
and to work with someonethat I've known for many, many years.
And, I had started a journey
for a new book around leadership,
with, Barrett Koehler
about two years agoand was in conversations
(06:04):
with the publisher and editorand trying to hone in on a theme.
And there were a lotof different options. And,
at a certain point,
editor discovered, project, a smallerproject that Margaret and I had conducted
with the Institute of Coaching,where we are both leaders.
And this was coming out of the pandemic.
(06:26):
And we had with a group of our seniorcoaches, we had done a mini qualitative
survey of how things had changedcoming out of the pandemic.
And from that there was a written report
and the publisher read the reportand it was thrilled.
He was like, wow, this is so cool.
And we were like, yeah, but that was many.
And it was tinyand it was right out of the pandemic.
(06:49):
And he said, well, why don't you takethis kind of idea and expand it?
And I said, I'd love to do that, butI couldn't do that without my colleague
Margaret, because she was reallythe primary driver of that writing.
And he said, well,why don't you ask her? So I did,
and the rest is history.
I mean, we basically sat down togetherwith the
(07:10):
with the publisher and recognized that,
there was all this amazing research
available to us as coaches.
We had been translating, coaching,research for our coaching communities,
much of it was aroundleadership and well-being.
And we realized in our conversationthat a lot of this research exists
(07:33):
around leadership, like how to bean effective leader in today's world
has been studied for many, many years,but so much of this scientific
basis is locked up in academic journals.
And I don't know about you, butI think most of my it's safe to say that
most of my clients do not spend their timereading academic journals on leadership.
(07:54):
So it just became an obvious opportunity.
And for us to step back
and translate this research into something
useful, accessible and to a certain extentwith a coaching mindset.
Because we're both coaches,we're not academic researchers,
but we have been involved with the scienceunderpinning coaching for years.
(08:18):
And so it was just a natural evolutionto the let's
look at the leadership literatureand then find a way
to create an accessible, usable,
practical approach that brings this work,
this really profoundresearch to the mainstream audience.
Margaret,anything you want to add to that?
Before I ask you the next question?
(08:42):
The most important thing is that
we are channeling the scientists
that that's what we're doing.
You know, we we created the framework.
We organized it in a waythat's flexible and whole.
And that was our contributioncoming from a number of places.
But, but we are channelingwhat the researchers are telling us.
(09:04):
And at this moment in time,
when I was in MBA school 40 years ago,there wasn't a science of leadership.
Now there are meta analysis.
And and so basically,we're at a place where just take humility.
There's 212 studiesthat were reviewed in one study.
So it's not just one studies 200.
It's 150 of this,250 of servant leadership.
(09:26):
So there's a lot of data now.
And you can find the signal and the noise.
And so getting thatbringing that to everyday leaders
and coaches is really important.
I mean this wasreally important work to do.
Which actually leadsright into my next question, Margaret.
So there isa tremendous amount of research.
(09:47):
How did you tell us abouthow you researched the research?
If you will, like,how did you decide, like,
if you read all 212 on humilityand you read all 122?
And so, I mean, like at some level,help us understand
how you decidedto get your arms around it.
Like, I think at this point,everyone who's watching or listening has a
(10:08):
a picture of where we're, we're
I mean, we're going to unpack some of thisfor everybody.
But like, how did you get from whatJeffrey said, like, how did you pick
tell us about the research.
About the research.
Right.
Well, I should start by sayingmy first career was in biotechnology.
So I worked exclusively
with scientists and researchersand led R&D programs.
(10:31):
Biotech companies are basically researchand development companies.
So I wasI was familiar with reading literature.
The first thing you dois you go for high quality studies.
You know, you, you, you
we had a list of topics that came out of,
lots of sources, but there's a, there's
(10:53):
a lot of frameworks that are coachesuse that leaders use that are familiar.
So we started there, although we didn't
just take them as they were,we took the essence of them.
And then we know there's 100 topicsin leadership research at least.
So we kind of got these nine topics.
And then we organized like humility wentand servant leadership,
visionary leadershipwent into transformational
(11:16):
forgiveness and leadership is astudy is in relational.
So we, we, we,we looked for the main topics and
we looked for high quality studies and we,we looked for the, the top journals.
So we didn't do small studieswith 20 people or 50 people.
We, we went after the largest studieswe had already.
We were already familiar with a lot of it.
(11:37):
We just had to fill it out.
It took ittook about two months of gathering data,
putting it into lists, and then beginand then writing it up from there.
So we you start with the latestand then you and then you organize it,
and then you start to write
and you let it in the writing and it'sinformed by what the data said, you know.
(11:58):
So one topic led to the next,led to the next.
So there's a there's a natural order therethat comes when you put it all together.
So yeah.
So it's just good old fashioned workthat I would not have been able to do.
Well, I wonder if I'd say that.
So, You know.
(12:18):
You talked about the framework,
the there are nine, nine capacities,and we'll talk about those in a second.
But you started there likeyou had some done some things to do that
and then brought the research inas opposed to the other way around.
I'm not a big bit of both, but
we knew that we had the list of topics
(12:41):
just because that'swe've been gathering it for 20 years,
you know, what are the
and also they're topics that are commonto coaching and well-being.
That's the interesting thing.
Even though we stayedwith the studies on leadership,
they're both very familiar to usbecause we know about positive psychology
and we know about relationshipsand we know about transformation
and we know about agility.
(13:02):
You know, we already knowa lot of these things that just that we
so we weren't starting from scratch.
We we already had a pretty good command.
You when you coach people the same topics.
I mean I bet, you know,I heard you talk about your book
in another podcast, flexibilityis it today not strengths based.
You know, Peter Drucker got us this far.
You know, build on your strengths.
(13:23):
Now you have to become a whole.
You have to roundout your your repertoire.
So, before we
get to the nine capacitiesand and everybody, we'll list them out.
We are
we do not have time to dive into all nine,but I'm going to give
we'll talk about it a little bit.
But before that you've identifiedwithin the nine capacities
(13:46):
they fall into I'm going to saythree segments or three focus areas.
So Jeffrey, tell us about those three.
They really map with what we talk about.
We use different wordsand some different words.
But I'd love for you to talkabout those three,
segments and why they're all important.
Back to this word impact.
(14:06):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think that what Margaret was pointing tois that we realized
we could not cover the world.
I mean, it's a huge pantheon of leadershipliterature.
So you have to keep in mindthat as we went through
the journey of reviewing the analogyof the reviewing the studies,
we also had a coaching mindsetthroughout the whole time.
(14:30):
And we were thinking abouthow does this apply
in our coaching that we work with leaders.
And it startedsort of naturally fall into buckets,
because these are the kinds of issuesthat come up with our clients.
And so as we took the topics one by one,we realized that there is a flow.
(14:52):
There's a natural flowthat leaders go through.
It's like a journey they take that starts
with grounding it within themselves.
Like before you can start to fix a system,you have to start with yourself.
So we looked atwhat are the core capacities, as we call
them, or the capabilities that are relatedto developing oneself as a leader.
(15:16):
And then it felt naturalto evolve from internal to external.
And as we looked at those domainsthat are external,
it became very clearthat the first level of that is your team,
is your relationships
with the people you influence, the peopleyou impact directly, like right around
you are colleagues,your peers, your direct report.
(15:38):
So the first level was yourself,the second level was your team.
And working in with relationshipswith others.
And then ultimately, when we lookedat the most sophisticated research,
it starts to look at the bigger picture.
And that includes thingslike servant leadership
and transformational leadership and,and, distributive or shared leadership.
(16:00):
And that's shifting from sort of an I to awe mindset
and looking at the bigger picture.
And it became kind of naturalthat as we work with leaders,
those are the stageswe go through in coaching.
So why not make the journey in the book
applicableto the way it is in the real world?
(16:21):
Sounds logical.
You so you talked about self othersin organization.
We we tip I use three O's outcomes.
Others and ourselves and they really met.
I mean the same love,that same thing. Right.
And so what I'd like you to do now,
is so there are three of the capacities,
(16:42):
as you just said, Jeffrey,at each of those three areas.
So, Margaret,
here's what I want to do.
I want you all to give us.
I'll have you go back and forth like,we'll do the first three, Margaret
and Jeffrey,you can do the next three, etc..
But what?
I just want a couple of sentencesabout each because we really,
by the way, everybody,you're going to want a copy of the book.
So you might want to just take careof getting that order.
(17:05):
Now the signs of leadershipnine ways to Expand Your impact.
It's if you if you read the slide, it'scoming out in about two weeks.
And if you're with us
after the podcast comes out,it's already out.
So go ahead and get your copy.
So we're going to go deeply into each one.
But I want everyone to knowsort of what the framework is.
(17:26):
And then I'm going to ask yousome general questions about them.
So Margaret tell us about the threethat are the self focused three.
Well good.
So it starts with consciouswhich is that you are present.
You see clearly you'recalm and you're objective
and that those are hard things to do
(17:48):
because we have all this emotional noiseand busy mind here.
And so it maps to mindfulness,it maps to self awareness.
And we took it a step furtherwith emotional integration,
which means that the noise in your mind,the ego noise of a leader,
ultimately turns into a quieter ego.
That's the journey of leaders.
(18:08):
Which is why the more senior leadersspeak more slowly,
are more powerful,and see things more clearly.
So that's conscious.
The second, is authentic
and that is, the fire in us.
That's our values, what we care about.
So that's purpose, virtues,values, character, all those things,
(18:31):
they, they sitin a lot of different frameworks, but,
but authenticityis really the starting point.
But the second piece isthat you also really care
about the authenticity of others.
So that's the heart. The agile is,
the basis for everything.
As you know, you're you need toyou need to be mentally agile,
going from big picture to little detailsup and down the elevator.
(18:53):
You know, many times a dayyou've got to go
from adversityto to corporate to resilience.
You need to go from one extremeof a conflict to the other.
You know, you're,you know, we've got this polarized world.
You're basically bouncingaround your brain using all of it.
You know, up and down party,you know, that you just you might,
(19:14):
you know, you might as well be a,an athlete, a mental athlete.
So that's agility.
So those are the. When.
You're awake, you're genuine.
You care like your heart say you're inthis and you're and you're able to bounce.
Right.
And so the next three
are the the othersor the about other people about the team.
(19:37):
Geoffrey, walk us through those three.
Sure.
So when you, step from agileinto the broader,
you start to move outwardinto the organization.
The first step is going to bean obvious one, which is relational.
And it starts right, rightclose to home with relationships
(20:00):
with the people that you work with,with your peers, your direct reports.
And it looks like thingslike coaching and mentoring
and creating a spacefor psychological safety.
And, it's really about having those core,
connective tissues
with others,like empathy is in this space.
(20:23):
And we love the researchof a colleague of ours and Colin Fisher,
who did some wonderful work onhow not to be a micromanager.
And just to give you one taste of theresearch, you know, he and his colleagues
studied project management,and they came away with two key themes,
which are reallyI find them very profound with my clients,
(20:45):
which are guiding rather than dictatingand path clearing like
clearing the path for your teamto be able to follow through.
So those are sort of a relationalactivities that you get engaged in.
The next is positive psychologyor positive leadership.
And this we call strengthening.
(21:07):
Because it's really how do you createan environment that elevates
the capabilities and capacitiesof all the people that you interact with.
And this is where we do it.
Pretty deep dive into positive psychology.
And this has been around now for 20 years.
And there are core principlesof positive psychology around efficacy
(21:27):
meaning motivation.
And so the the research and positivepsychology is incredibly helpful
for coaches.
And we try to distill it downto sort of the core premise that leaders
can use to bring a qualitativelyoptimist type environment in
and stay also away from what we would call
(21:49):
toxic passive positivity,which is, you know, the,
rose colored glasses areeverything is always wonderful.
It's not about that.
It's about being realistic and optimistic
and building resilience and competencies.
So that's the positive domain.
And then
(22:10):
the third level and in the
sort of next outer domain is
compassionate leadership, which is a
relatively new kid on the blockin terms of research.
And I think Margaret and I kind of debatedlike, where would we put compassion
and how does this fit inand what but what we came to realize
(22:30):
is that compassion is sort of this
integration of all that
has come before consciousness,agility, positive, relational,
and then beginningto see how that impacts the wider world.
And we we chose to use the word resonate.
Like if you're really a compassionateleader,
(22:51):
you will be able to resonatewith the pain,
the suffering, the challenges, the traumasthat we all go through as human beings.
And to actually get tothat place is more than empathy.
It's broader, it's deeper, and it's truly
a more sophisticated wayof being in the world.
And there's some really good studiesaround compassion.
(23:13):
It's becoming, I would say it's sort ofone of the more recent areas of research.
So those are the three in that domainmoving outward.
And then most everyone is.
Here is whatI would call a capital leader.
You have a leadership titleor role of some sort.
And so at some pointyou have to talk about this third segment,
this third domain, that beingthe organizational results piece.
(23:37):
So Margaret,why don't you talk about the last three.
To do that. Yeah.
Well, the next one, I was just doing
a workshop on this in Mexico last weekend,and this one had the lowest score.
So shared leadership.
So sharedleadership is where, as a leader,
(23:59):
before you,you know, proclaim from your perch
the vision, the purpose and the strategy,
you, in fact, share the process
of building those with you,not just the top C-suite
and the top SVP that believes, but you getyou get it down as far as you can go.
(24:21):
And there's a wonderful storyis called Open Strategy.
That was done it with a European,
insurance company with 50,000 employees,brand
new CEO stock pricedoing terribly in four months.
To turn it around, he got a group of 40frontline like shop floor.
Like people in the insurancecompany took them four months
(24:44):
before they could talk in his language,before they could actually,
they could actually share their ideasin a way that was system wide.
And when they put out their newstrategic plan,
the share value went up $18 billion.
So it's worthwhile.
But it took months to get these peoplewho are not used to talking the language.
(25:05):
So that's that's like shared leadershipat the on the front lines.
Is that you?
Because as a leader, you say, I don't havetime to bring these people along.
I they don't understandwhat's going on in the world.
You know, they've only got,you know, this bird's eye view.
But when you go the extra mileand you know, Kevin,
this is probably our answer to engagement
is to engage people in the directionsetting.
(25:27):
Right.
That's it doesn't get talked about,but I think that's the real deal.
So that's the hardest one.
Servant leadership is hard because youyou and most of us do this in small doses,
not as we're not Mother Theresa, but youreally are in this place of of service.
And you and you, you're humble.
You forget about yourself.
(25:48):
You're there, to to to help othersdo their best.
And so,we all could use a little more of that.
And it's a bit more than authentic valuesbecause your values may still not,
might not go as far as service.
The last one, which is the penultimate,because everything up
until this point makes it gobetter, is transformational.
(26:09):
It's the most studied leadership topic.
It's actually boring because peoplehave known for about it for so long.
You know,
40 years it's been around Bernard Bousquetand founded Leadership Quarterly.
But it turns out there'slots of things that you can add to it.
There's now sides of inspiration.
So if you're going to bean inspirational leader,
what do you do to make that happen?
How do you get people to lift their feetoff the ground,
(26:30):
turn the light on, and see possibilitiesthat I've never seen before?
You know,now there's some some ways to do that.
And, and my favorite
is this concept of novel problemformulation.
Okay.
So transformation of leadershipis about taking your challenge,
even your biggest challenge, andturning it into strength and opportunity.
This is the answer to Peter Drucker.
(26:51):
You know, you take the worstand you turn it into the best.
And and the science around
formulating problems says that the biggerand the more diverse
your your landscape of the problem,the more perspectives you've
you've considered,the more innovative the solution.
So this is where you're agile,looking at all these different approaches.
(27:13):
You're compassionateto all the different voices.
And when you put it all together, andthen you add a little bit of intuition,
you get this transformational solution,which is all goes better
when all the other things are workingwell.
So now everybody,you have the overview of the framework
and the capacities in in connectionto self, others and organization.
(27:38):
And so I'm curious, I'm going to ask youboth this question where we do you go
first, Jeffrey, of the nine,
which do you think is either
misunderstood or misapplied?
Most,
The to the top.
(27:59):
I, I'm not sure I can give you one,
but to pop into my mind immediately.
So and I always follow my intuition
the they are conscious leadershipand servant leadership.
And I think maybe the reason they bothpop into my mind is that,
there's a lot of
overlap between being a servant,which is kind of leading from behind
(28:22):
and requiring humilityand respect for yourself and for others.
And conscious leadership is challenging
because it requires you to be willingto be objective about yourself.
And then that leads to the questionof how do I become objective about myself?
(28:42):
Is it even possible to become objectiveor see what we like to call see clearly?
And it requires feedback and requires you
to actually listen to how you're perceive.
Pay attentionto how you're perceived by others.
And I think this isthese are very challenging for all of us.
(29:03):
Right.
We may think we're in serviceof a bigger picture,
but we may not be awarethat we're being kind of autocratic
or we are taking up a lot of space,or we're not listening,
or we're spending all our timeon our phone,
you know, we'reall of those things are connected, right?
Because if you're not aware and presentto how you show up in the world
(29:29):
as a leader, your physical,your emotional, your mental state,
you can't really
come across as a true servant
and all of the others become problematic.
So to answer your question,I think conscious leadership
is the reason why it's the groundon which everything else is built
(29:51):
is the most challenging
but the core,and we spend quite a bit of time talking
about that in terms of the researchand in terms of coaching.
There's case studies in the book about,
we actually recommendyou work through some of those issues,
because that's going to be the foundationto be successful.
(30:14):
Margaret,do you have a different answer or anything
you want to add?
I want to add
one thing about compassionthat won't be obvious,
because I think it comes from a place of,a deep understanding of all forces
operating when you are and respect,which is the basis for strategy.
(30:34):
So compassion,
if you really understand,listen to and respect and appreciate
and you don't treat one groupdifferently than another
and you really get it all, you are primedfor the best possible strategy.
So I don't think it's obviousthat compassion is the basis
for great strategy.
And, and so I would, I would add thatand then that one thing that we're
(30:57):
bringing to everybody's attentionis this concept called a quiet ego.
And I want to point that out as well,because right now
we don't have a lot of role modelsof quieting.
There's a, there's a, there's a,
over indexing of our emotions,
as if that they're really importantfor everyone to experience.
(31:20):
But then that's not true.
The most impact you can,you can use your emotions,
but they're like a dog on a leash.
You only let it run once in a while.
And I think,I think that the better you are
at bringing the quiet ego to the fore,the more impactful you are.
You know? You know,
you use the noise once in a while,but you you use it very carefully.
(31:44):
I want to say
to everybody listening that,I actually had,
a lower thirdI could have put up there about ego.
And you answer it and you mentioned itearlier and you mentioned again, Margaret.
And so I hope that all of you
who are listening, like,did a mental underline of that,
I find having done
around 500 of these, that there'susually at least one thing from an episode
(32:08):
that is the thing that I will rememberand connect to my guests.
And I'm confident,from reading the book, that's
I mean, there's lots of thingsI love about this book, and,
and you've done a real service aroundwhat you've done, around
researching the research,as I said earlier.
But it's just this idea of the quiet egoand quieting our ego
(32:29):
is probably the thingthat I will personally take from
from our conversation and from the bookas probably the biggest thing.
I think it's a really important point.
You talked about itin a really useful way,
both in the bookand in what you just said.
Marcus, I really appreciate that.
Before we finish,
I have a question that I always ask.
(32:49):
I'm going to ask both of you,and I guess it's your turn, Jeffrey.
So you get to go first. You already.
This is the only thing that that everybodythat that that everybody is
listening knows, they knewI was going to ask them a lot to ask.
And Jeffreysaid, well, I've got like eight.
I said, well, maybe get this eight.
The question is, what are youwhat are you reading these days?
(33:10):
Yeah.
No, I appreciate thatyou gave us a little bit of a heads up,
because otherwiseI'd be looking at my Kindle and saying,
oh, God,what am I reading in the last 24 hours?
Which is why I try to do it ahead.
Exactly right.
But it's actually a really great questionand great timing to because
especially connecting the dotswith the quiet ego,
which we did focus on a lotin the book and the research,
(33:34):
from a wonderful book.
And Margaret, remind methe name of the book, Transforming
Formative Self,Transforming of Self by Jack Bauer.
I'll let Margaret say more about that,but that's also an amazing book.
The book that I just finishedreading that connects
all of this, though,is called The Trauma of Everyday Life
(33:55):
by a wonderful Buddhist
psychiatrist named Brian Epstein.
In New York, he wrote a bookcalled Thoughts Without a Thinker,
which is a very famous bookfrom quite a few years ago,
and one of his most recent onesis called The Trauma of Everyday Life.
And it's really beautiful bookand it's a lot about bringing
(34:16):
some of the baseline Buddhistprinciples into our everyday world.
And then I'll quickly mention another onethat I love right now called Rise Above,
which is written by a good friend ofof mine and of the Institute of Coaching,
Barry Scott Kaufman, who has
(34:36):
best known for
sort of updating Maslow'shierarchy of needs
with his recent book on
The Transcendence self.I think it's called.
But his newest book is called Rise Above,and it's, it's
also really, really excellent, approachto bringing,
what he callsmoving out of a victim mindset.
(35:00):
So I encourage you to read both of thosealong with ours.
All right.
Well, absolutely.
Margaret, what are you reading these days?
Right.
So, there's a wonderful new documentaryout on Mark Twain.
So start there because he's
an amazing catalogerof the human experience.
(35:20):
And I'm reading the new book called James.
I just barely started Percival Everett,which is the black
person's perspective on, Huckleberry Finn.
So I'm looking forward to thatas a mind expander.
The other thing,
is that I'm reading a lot about, I,
including Harare's new book.
(35:42):
So I, I do think that humansare downloading
into the AI psyche their own patterns.
So, you know,like if you just compare different
AI services,they have different personalities.
And, and, I think our book providesa simple framework
(36:02):
for people developing AI,for people developing AI.
Sorry for AI to help leadersand for AI to lead.
I think we have to make a conscious effort
to download into the AI psyche
what we need and not this competitive.
(36:23):
I describe a lot of AI, like a virus,
which means it's it's gotthe energy of one to take over its host.
You can feel it,
but the living world is one of cells.
And cells live in cooperationwith their fellow cells.
And and we need to turnAI into, more of a living,
(36:45):
cooperative, collaborative mode.
And I do think thatthat requires real leaning.
And so I'm, I'm trying to understand this,like ghosts, including coaching
AI leaders as much as I can to do
what we can to help.
Help human leaders lead AI.
(37:07):
We've been talkingwith the authors of the new book,
The Science of Leadership Nine Waysto Impact Me, to Expand Your Impact.
And I know that you can learnmore at The Science of leadership.com,
but either of you want to tell us
a little bit moreabout where they can connect with you,
where they can learn more, or is thereanything else that you want to tell us
about connecting and reaching out to youbefore we reach before we finish up?
(37:33):
I just want to thank you for thisgreat conversation.
Mostly,
you've got the website thereon your screen, and the book comes out
July 15th,so it may already be out or not,
depending upon when this gets,
when you get to just to see thisand I think
I would just add thatwe love being in dialog with our readers,
(37:56):
as we've loved being in dialogwith the researchers.
As Margaret said at the outset,this book has been
kind of an honoring of the scientists.
And so if you are a researcheror you actually are interested
in that side of things, reach out to us.
I'm on LinkedInand Margaret's on LinkedIn.
(38:16):
We love conversations. We're coaches.
So we're people persons.
We, you know,writing books is not our primary focus.
So we look forwardto hearing from everyone.
Science of leadership.com everybody.
Now before we finish, I'm going to askall of you the question
and then asking my guest question,I'm going to ask you a question
(38:37):
is the questionI ask you every single episode.
If you've been here before,you know what I'm about to ask you.
The question is, now what?
What are you going to do with whatyou just heard?
Maybe you're going to go buy a book or 2or 5, depending
on which ones that you found interesting.
Maybe there's hopefully there'smultiple things that you just heard
(38:58):
that you found interesting,that stopped you in your tracks mentally.
The question is, what are you going to dowith those things?
Not just, hey, that was interesting.
Hey, I really ought to do somethingabout that.
What am I going to do?
What are you going to actually do?What action will you take?
Because until you take action,until you move from knowing to doing
(39:18):
nothing is really significantlygoing to change.
And so I encourage you to do that.
When you do that, you get far more valuefrom the time that you just spent with us.
And so I want to thank Margaretand Jeffrey again for being here,
and to remind all of youthat if you love this, tell
somebody elsethat they do come watch or listen.
And wherever you happen to be watchingor listening to this,
(39:40):
make sure you subscribeso you don't miss any future episodes.
Because next week,
I promise there'll be another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
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