May 21, 2025 • 35 mins
Are you thriving or just surviving? Steve Magness joins Kevin to discuss how many of us operate in psychological survival mode far more often than we realize, treating everyday workplace challenges as threats rather than growth opportunities. They explore the psychological traps of modern stress responses, protective systems, and the impact of flattening our identities. They also cover accepting “messiness”, the balance between short-term comfort and long-term growth, redefining success, and why authenticity must go beyond performance to resonate.
Listen For
00:00 Introduction to The Remarkable Leadership Podcast
01:33 Introducing Guest Steve Magness
02:25 Steve Magness' Background and New Book
03:15 Steve’s Journey from Running to Coaching
05:02 The Dangers of Win at All Costs Mentality
05:24 From Survival to Thriving The Purpose of the Book
06:09 The Modern Survival Mode Explained
07:14 The Four Protective Systems of the Brain
08:53 Why We Struggle to Accept and Learn
11:25 The Challenge of Moving Past Natural Responses
12:15 Leadership and Survival Mode in Everyday Life
13:07 Flattening the World Simplifying People and Ourselves
16:09 How Flattening Ourselves Makes Us Fragile
18:09 Accepting the Messiness of Who You Are
19:05 Resilience Through Embracing Complexity
21:24 Instagram vs Real Life Identity Example
22:15 Leadership Accountability and Avoiding Deflection
23:16 Real vs Performative Authenticity
24:40 Why Actions and Words Must Align for True Leadership
25:07 Authenticity vs Using It as an Excuse
26:13 Defining Thriving Autonomy Significance Belonging
28:02 Thriving at Work and Intrinsic Motivation
28:46 Advice for Leaders Start with Yourself
30:54 Learning to Lose and Resilience in Leadership
31:11 Steve’s Book Recommendation The Science of Storytelling
32:21 Final Thoughts and Steve’s Contact Info
34:00 Kevin’s Now What Call to Action
35:26 Closing
Steve's Story: Steve Magness is the author of Win the Inside Game: How to Move from Surviving to Thriving and Free Yourself Up to Perform. He is a world-renowned performance expert as well as the bestselling author of Do Hard Things and The Science of Running, and coauthor of Peak Performance and The Passion Paradox. He is the co-host of the podcast, Farewell, and co-founder of The Growth Equation. He has written for The Atlantic, Runner’s World and Sports Illustrated, and he has been featured in The New Yorker, Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, NPR, and others. Magness has served as a performance coach and speaker for teams and individuals in the MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, the US military, and numerous companies and organizations. He lives in Houston, Texas.
Book Recommendations
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
If you are listening
to these words,I know you want to perform better.
Get better results.
Succeed and thrive.
You want this for your team
and your organization,but you need it for yourself too.
You are the focus today.
Let's talk about winning your inside gameso you can thrive as a leader
(00:30):
and a human being.
Welcome to the RemarkableLeadership Podcast, where we are
helping leaders grow personallyand professionally to lead more
effectively and make a bigger differencefor their teams, organizations,
and the world.
If you are listening to this podcastin the future, you could join us
for live episodeson your favorite social channel.
(00:50):
I guess I guess depending on whatyour favorite social channel is,
you can get informationabout when those lives happen
and get connectedand even ask questions during the shows.
By joining our Facebookor LinkedIn groups.
Two of those platformsthat these will be housed on.
And you can do that by going to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook
(01:12):
and a remarkable podcastAcademy linked in.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book.
Flexible leadership navigate uncertaintyand lead with confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
in a world that is more complexand uncertain than ever.
(01:33):
Leaders need a new perspective
and a new set of toolsto help them achieve the great results.
Organizationsand team members want and need,
and that'swhat flexible leadership provides you.
You can learn more and get your copyby going to remarkable
podcast.com/flexible.
And with that let me bring in my guest.
(01:54):
His name is Steve Magnus. There he is.
And let me introduce him.
And then we will dive in.
Steve Magnus is a world renowned experton performance and a bestselling author
of Do Hard Thingsand the Science of Running.
He is also the coauthor of PeakPerformance and The Passion Paradox.
His newest book, Win the Inside Game
(02:17):
How to Move from Surviving to Thriving
and Free Yourself Up to Performis the focus of our conversation.
He is the co host of the podcast
farewelland the co-founder of The Growth Equation.
He has written for The Atlantic, Runner'sWorld and Sports Illustrated.
He's been featured in The New Yorker,
The Wall Street Journal,The New York Times, NPR, and others.
(02:39):
He has served as a performance coach
and speaker for teams and individualsin Major League Baseball,
the NFL, the NBA, the NHL,the military, and lots more.
He lives outside of Houston, Texas,and he's our guest.
Steve, welcome.
Thanks so much.
I'm. I'm glad to be here, Kevin.
All right, so I told you beforewe went live that I love your book.
(03:02):
Tell me a little bit about your story.
You have an interesting backstory,
and and we don't have time or desireto do all of that.
But tell us a little bit about whatleads you to this book and why this book.
There are back.
There we go.
All right. I can see you, Kevin.
So, I mean, the long storyshort is my background is in running.
I was a very good, high school runner.
(03:23):
Ran a four minute, one secondmile way back in high school, and,
you know, thought that was the ticket.
But then I never, ever improved.
And then I got into coaching.
Long story short,you can read about it in the book,
but went through a really toughcoaching period
where I essentially witnessedsome people, you know, doing
some unethical thingsand cheating at the highest level.
(03:47):
And all of that experiencebrought me to a point
where I was like, well,what does it mean to strive for something?
What does it mean to obtain success?
I've seen a path where in my own careerI thought the only answer was like,
be obsessed.
Forget everything else,make it my sole identity and go for it.
(04:08):
And all thatlearning led me to is burnout.
And then I saw it.
In my early coaching career, I saw someonehaving kind of like a win at all costs
model of, you know, if you want tosucceed, it's got to be win at all costs.
That means literally doing everything,anything to get that
accolade, achievement, medal,whatever it is.
(04:29):
And I've always struggled with thatbecause that's not how I saw,
successor striving in a, in a healthy way.
So I really wanted to explorewhat it means to not only,
you know, perform at a high level,but to look at
how can we do it in a mannerthat doesn't make us miserable,
(04:50):
that doesn't lead us to doing nefariousthings that allows us to feel good about,
you know, the things that we're doingin our our work, life.
So all of this work, this bookand in that conversation
leads us to think that this bookis going to be about thriving,
which of course, is inthe is in the subtitle of the book.
(05:12):
And yet the whole opening of the book,
and I think an incredibly wonderful
part of the bookis all about survival mode.
And you make the point.
And I'd like you to sharesome of it with us, that
an awful lot of us are in survival modemost of the time.
And and I think what will makethis most interesting is for us,
(05:35):
for you to tell us moreabout what you mean by that,
because I think that all of us recognize,you know, survival
in sort of the jungle kind of mode
or in the movie kind of mode.
But you make the point that we're there
a lot more than we might realizepsychologically.
So let's talk about that first.I think it's really important.
And everybody, as Steve talks about this,I'd like you to think about this both
(05:59):
for yourselfbut also with your leader hat on.
And I'm not asking you to judge others,but I think that as you listen, you'll
get some sense of how this is valuableand thinking about where others are, too.
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we look at let's startat the jungle.
Right?
So if we were in the jungle surviving
and we were under a real threat,we'd have a stress response.
(06:22):
And that stress response would put usin a place where we would essentially
have short term thinking on, oh my gosh,how do I survive this situation?
Like there's a lion, a tiger,we're running out of food.
Whatever it is, forget the future,forget the long term.
Like whatgets me through this next moment, right?
It's that fight or flight moment.
(06:43):
And what we know iswhen we're in that spot.
Yeah, it might help us,you know, escape the lion, but it's.
Yeah, I know short term, butit's really damaging over the long haul.
Now let's zoom outand take that to our modern world.
A lot of us are in a statewhere we're so focused
on the short term, where it feels like,okay, everything is overwhelming.
(07:06):
There's too much information,there's too much overload.
I don't know what to do about anything,so I'm just going to tackle
the next problem in front of me.
And what happens is we get stuckin this kind of survival mode where
instead of thinking about the future,instead of being able to zoom out,
instead of thinking,what is the impact of this?
We just get caught up in like,how do I get through this thing?
(07:28):
And to make it clear for folksis when we live
in this kind of survivalmode for too long, we end up doing things
like avoiding the hard thing right nowthat gives us lasting growth.
We do things like rationalizeand justify decisions
instead of working through themand saying, where's the truth?
(07:50):
Where's the thing that will help me,you know, get through this?
Essentially, the case that I make is it'salmost like we're, we're back in middle
school, right where we're looking aroundand we're like, I'm really anxious.
I don't quite know where I fit in.
I don't quite knowwhere my direction is going.
I don't know what to do.
(08:12):
And because of that,we get in that survival short term mode.
And instead I make the argumentthat what we need to do is, like you know,
get out of that zoom out,get some perspective,
and also fulfill ourselvesso that we can have
that security that allows us to dodo so over the long fall.
So you hinted at a couple of those thingsthat we do.
(08:33):
You call themthe protective systems in the book.
Right? And you said, well,sometimes we have we want to avoid it.
Sometimes we try to defend ourselves.
Sometimes we try to narrow our focus.
We don't stay broad, we go narrow.
And then there's one other onethat's actually far more
helpful than the first three.
(08:54):
And that's called accepting
and thinking abouthow do I grow from this point?
Why is it that we lean on the first threeand not the fourth?
Most of the time?
The simple answer isyour brain is designed
as a uncertainty reducing machine.
So when we're in those moments,what is stress?
(09:16):
It's uncertainty.
I don't know how this is goingto, you know, work out.
I'm not sure what path to go in.
The simplest route is those first three,
which if we want to reduce uncertainty,what's the best way we avoid the thing?
We'll just just get it out right now.
Right?
Or we,you know, go into that defensive mode.
(09:39):
I'm going to denythe reality of the prospect that exists.
Yeah. Stick your head in the sand.
That's what it is.
The last one really sucksin the short term.
And it doesn't reduce uncertaintyin the short time
because you're essentially sayingit's a really stressful time.
I don't have the answer.
I'm not quite surewhat the path forward is,
(10:03):
but I need to accept thatand then figure out how do we transform
this into learning and growth overthe long haul, it's more beneficial,
but in the short termit doesn't eliminate that stress.
And often we're inwe're in the survival mode, our brain.
All that cares about is like,how do we reduce the stress right now?
How do we get rid of this discomfort?
(10:23):
I don't like how it feels likejust get rid of it.
Forget the long term consequences.
And I agree.
And I mentioned to you before we went livethat I see all sorts of parallels
and that some of the stuffthat you're writing about
is extremely connected to my new book,Flexible Leadership.
And this is one of those placesbecause I and I love your line, uncertain.
(10:45):
But, our brains are uncertaintyreducing machines.
I think that's right.And yet there's a certainty all around us.
And as leaders, we have to.
We can't be the ostrich.
And too often we end up defendingor justifying our natural response.
And I'm suggestingand you're suggesting that we have to move
past our natural response,that fourth thing that accept,
(11:07):
learn, grow, integrate idea
is where we can move past,
where we can movepast our natural response,
which is to do one of thosefirst three things
or to lean into our identity, which says,well, this is just the way I am.
Yeah, you're you're right.
(11:28):
You're you're spot on.
And I think this iswhy it's so important to leadership.
Because think about it.
We all know we have this natural response.
Think about when something went wrong
or where you messed up or when you chose.
I don't have. To thinkvery far back. Right. Eve?
Like probably this morning.Right. Exactly.
We all experience this especiallyin leadership, but also in life.
(11:50):
And what's the natural response?
I'll give you a better example hereis, is this how many of times
have you got in an argumentwith your significant other or spouse?
And what you're doing isyou're defending the argument
instead of listeningand understanding like,
oh gosh, this is a simple solution,but we can't get past that
(12:13):
initial response,which is, this is a threat to me.
You're attacking something that I did.
So we're going to go backand forth on this when the reality
is you're both on the same teamtrying to figure it out.
And if you realize that, you'd be like,okay, let's rationally
get through this, move past itand then say, what is that?
What is the learning and growing
so that we can, you know, we don't haveto face the same challenge beforehand.
(12:36):
But that's not our natural response.
Our natural response is,no, I'm in the right.
You're in the wrong.
Even though we're staring at the personwe love the most in the world.
And they are not a lion or a tiger.
And you're in the grocery store,not the jungle.
So look at the totally different thinggoing on here.
And yet ourthe way we're wired at some level.
Right.
(12:57):
And that's whyI think this opening part is so important.
You know, it's
as, as writers, you and
I and I appreciate this,you know, move from thriving to surviving.
It sounds good and it's true.Don't misunderstand me.
And yet we throw that wordsurviving around a lot.
And the point that you're makingand you make in the book so.
Well is that,
(13:20):
we treat a lot of stufflike surviving that we don't need to
if we would take a deep breathand step back and think about it,
we can get out of these protective,these first three protective systems.
You use a phrase in the book,a couple of different places,
and it it really struck me.
And so I'm curious what you mean, or say
(13:41):
a little bit more about this ideathat we tend to flatten our world.
What do you mean?
So here's what our brain tends to do iswe need to make sense of the world
that we live in, because our brainis essentially a it's predictive meaning.
As we go through the world,
(14:01):
we look around and our brain is like,how do I handle this next challenge?
What's this next thing coming on?
I'm about to get on on stageand have to give my pitch like, well,
do I need anxiety?
Do I need nerves? Do I need excitement?
How am I going to handle thispsychologically and biologically?
And what I mean by flattenis because of our predictive
(14:22):
kind of brain, the easiest, simplest wayto make sense of the world
is to flattenit, to turn us into like 2D caricatures.
And what I mean is youyou can probably think of situations
where you do this,where you have people in your workplace
who you essentially categorizeby their job
(14:42):
or what they do,or some simple characteristic.
You're like,you got all. Kinds of ways we do that.
Yeah, you're like,That's Jill, she's the accountant,
or that's that's Joe,you know, he's very neurotic.
Whatever it is,we just flatten people into simple labels
that help us categorize that.
(15:03):
And we don't just do it to other people,we also do it to ourselves.
Right?
We define ourselvesby a few simple characteristics,
and that helps us kind of processin our brain.
Be like, okay,when I enter should situation with Joe,
I know that he's like very meticulous.
So this is how I'm going to treat himin that two degree like helps.
(15:26):
But if we live in that flattened world,what happens is pretty simple
is that we become kind of fragile,
both in our leadership styleand our sense of self.
Because if we don't realize
and recognize the complexity of the humanssitting across from us,
then a that means that we are not
(15:49):
going to be connected with them.
Because one of the big thingson connection and belonging is that you
you get this like vulnerabilityand trust cycle, which occurs
because someone realizes that, hey,you know, Kevin sees me
as more of an accountant,like he sees me as a human being.
(16:10):
And when you get that, you say, okay,I'm going to buy into whatever
Kevin's saying because, like,I know he's got my back.
And on the B the other side of thisis that even with ourselves, right.
If we see ourselvesand flatten ourselves as like, I am Steve
and I am a runner,and that is only what I'm defined as,
(16:30):
then what happensis if running or your job,
if you're the CEO or leader or manager,if that's all you have,
then the moment that that starts to gopoorly,
let's say you get a poor job review,
then all of a sudden it feels likeit's the end of the world because
you flatten yourself where you don't seeall the many shades of gray
(16:51):
and other things that you doand are interested in in, in,
diversified sourcesof meaning that you have.
So flattening makes us fragile.
So we're talking about our identity.
Every one of the things that you say laterin the book that I thought was a really
the way you said it,I thought was really interesting.
You said, we all die once.
Athletes die twice.
(17:13):
And you said it in the contextof professional athletes, right?
That when their career ends,they have defined
they have almost assuredlydefined themselves. As,
as a player of that sport.
Right.
And when that is no longer there,then what happens?
And, you know, we've all heard,
whether you're a sports fan or not,we've heard some of the, the,
(17:35):
the, the,the sad stories about how that ends.
We also have examples where it's, there'sthere's good stories,
but that's because they were ableto manage and think about this identity
piece a little bit more.
And everything you're sayingabout flattening
ourselves and, and the way we flattenothers is so important.
And as it relates
to how we flatten ourselves,we we call ourselves we're an accountant.
(17:57):
We're this we're a leader. We're whatever.
And we don't think about,
maybe the best chapter title
I will see all year, which is acceptthe messiness of who you are.
So I want us to talkabout accepting the messiness,
because as humans, we are,
(18:17):
without question, messy, which meanswe can't define ourselves by one
word, one phrase, one personality style,one leadership style, whatever.
One generation,however you want to put that.
So why is it so importantif we want to move towards thriving,
that we accept our messiness,and then perhaps even how, Steve,
(18:37):
can we help others accept theirs?
Yeah, it's important because, as I said,
when we flatten ourselves,we make us ourselves fragile.
When we accept the messiness,we become resilient.
And it's it's very simple.
The reason is this is because
if you
accept the complexity of the personthat you are in the interest
(18:58):
you have, the strengths you have,and even the weaknesses or the flaws
or the drawbacks or whateverit is, the things you struggle with.
If you accept that, then your brain goes,
okay, like I get it,this is part of who I am.
Hey, that allows me to work on the thing.
If I say, hey, this is a weakness,I want to get better at this.
(19:18):
If I have accepted, I can work on it.
And B isif for whatever reason, if that shows up,
you're like, okay, yes, this is part of me
and I can navigate it if you don't.
If you go with that, we'll callthat Instagram version of yourself
where you show everybody the highlights.
You paint the best picture.
(19:39):
You say, I'm always happy, fit, funand at my best,
well, what happens is reality is goingto smack you in the face at some point.
Yeah, and if you fed your brain
the information that I'm the best,I always figure it out.
I'm always, you know, A, B and C,then when reality smacks you in the face,
(20:01):
your brain is going to go like,hey, wait a minute.
Like this isn'tthis isn't what we thought was coming.
This isn't who we thought we were.
And because of that,
your brain is going to defaultto that avoidance and protect mode.
You know, because it's saying like,this isn't what we signed up for.
The example I like to give in sports,which I think really highlights
(20:22):
this is isthis is if I sign up for a marathon.
And even as a runner I say, hey,this is going to be really freaking tough
because there's no balance about it.
It's always tough, right?
No matter how much you train,it's always tough.
And you say, this is the reality.
This is what I bring to the table, right?
This is approximatelymaybe what I think I can accomplish.
(20:45):
If you do that, then even when it getstough, your brain is going to go like,
yeah, I expected itget to tough, but we're prepared for it.
If instead I went with the Instagramversion and said,
Steve, you're a lifelong runner,this is no problem.
Like you've been in situations like thisbefore all the time.
Like you're going to handle this with abreeze the minute you get to whatever.
(21:08):
Mile 1819, 20 in reality,smacks you in your face.
Your brain is going to go,I didn't sign up for this.
This is not what you told methat you know was coming.
And I'm going to tryand convince you to quit,
which is that protect mode, because, like,we didn't sign up for it.
It's the same with our identities, right?
(21:28):
If we flatten itinstead of accept the messiness,
we set ourselves up for that fragilityand that avoidance and that protection.
And from a leadership perspective,we set ourselves up to say, well,
listen, you just have to acceptthis is how this is how I lead.
So we go in to defend you.
The other thing, you know,while we go into defending, justifying
(21:50):
and all that stuff, well,
and then we alsoeverybody can start blaming others for the
things that happen as opposed to saying,well, what part of this is ours?
So there's a whole accountabilitypiece here.
So I do want to talk about one of
the words that gets used in leadershipcircles a lot.
And it relates to all this stuff.
We're talking about our identity.
We're talking about messiness.
(22:10):
We're talking about 2D to 3D,like all that stuff.
But wherewhere does authenticity fit in here then?
Like,
what does it
mean to be authenticgiven what we've just described?
Because,you know, people want to see more of us
than the Instagram image or shortor whatever you want to call it.
(22:30):
So what's your take?
Or what would your research say to us
about advice about being more authentic?
So here's what I think matters
is that when we talk about authenticity,there's almost like
a performative variety, meaning
I've heard I should be authentic.
(22:52):
So I'm going to, you know, share a storyor two, hear and make people think
that, like, I'm being vulnerable and openand all of that good stuff.
And then there's the real variety,which I think is more important,
in which authenticity,authenticity is essentially like
being who you are in the momentand letting people see that
(23:13):
not just through your words,but also your actions.
So if you are the person who, you know,
maybe has a little bit of a more hard edgeand in leadership like,
that's okay to degree,you've just got to like be authentic
in that, that, that who you areand not like try and sugarcoat it
and not try and,you know, fake it through.
(23:35):
Do this.
And I think that's the key differencethere is that authenticity is good
as long it isit is not the performative variety.
And the last thing I'll say is,if you look at the psychology research,
is that
human beings are expertsat reading signals.
(23:56):
And what I mean by that is we're expertsat not only listening
to what you're saying,but picking up, like, your actions,
your body language,and seeing if those two match.
And I think when we comes to authenticity,this is why it's really important.
Because if I'm saying one thing,but my body language,
(24:17):
my actions behind it, all of thatis pointing in the other direction.
Our brain will pick it up and be like,there's something off here.
I'm not going to quite bywhat this person is saying.
And I think that's that rightthere is the key to authenticity is like,
you've got to have everything alignedso that that person on the receiving end
(24:38):
getting the signal says like,okay, he's being real.
Like,I need to listen to this, to accept it.
And so if, for example,
I love that if I am that leader,I'll just use your example with that.
More of a hard edgethat doesn't mean we stay there.
And just I mean, we lean into that.
It means that it'sand if that comes out, it's okay.
(25:00):
But if in that moment,if the context of that situation
that isn't serving us,then we've got to be able to shift
the may even need to apologize,or whatever.
But that authenticity isn't a an excuse
to just do whatever the heck we thinkis who we are and not try to get better.
Yeah.
It's that it's that spot on.
(25:22):
It's exactly what you talking about.
It's that flexible and adaptableleadership.
It's authenticity is seeing the situationfor what it is, right.
If you have that hard edge and you explodeon someone, it's not being like,
that's just who I am.
I explode on people.It's realizing and seeing
in this situation.
This had a negative effect on A, B and C,and I realized and could see that
(25:45):
this is my this is on me for going too farin that direction.
It can be my natural response,but it doesn't have to be my
it doesn't have to be my auto response.
Yes, that's a huge difference.
So, I,
could spend the entire entire conversation
times threejust on this identity and survival stuff.
(26:07):
But I want us to at least moveto what you mean by thriving.
And so I want to aska couple more questions before we finish.
So when you say thriving,
what does that mean?
Because we've mostly been talkingabout surviving so far.
Like what does it mean?
But how would you define thriving for us?
Yeah, I think what it is.
(26:27):
And if you look at the psychology research, it's defined in so many different ways.
But to me
it looks that
you feel like you have autonomy,
meaning like you have some sayin the direction that you're headed.
You feel like you're contributing.
(26:48):
There's some significancebehind the work that you're doing.
And we're talkingabout thriving in the workplace.
We could talk about sports,but the same thing there's significance.
You're a contributor. It's meaningful.
You feel like you belong.
Meaning there is connectionto those around you and you feel like
you're essentially at home, right?
(27:10):
You have a spot.
And I think when we look at thosekind of three things and we could again
include things like competency,meaning like you feel like you're
making progress towards somethingmeaningful.
There's all sorts of variations,
but to me that isit is like we want to feel significant.
We want to feel directed.
We want to feel belonging
(27:31):
and if we have those things,then chances are in the research backs
this up is we're going to stokeour intrinsic motivation,
meaningwe're not going to just be motivated by
the accolades, achievements, the money,whatever it is.
But for the joy of the pursuit,for the challenge of the thing,
the task we're taking onand what we know over the long haul
(27:53):
is that intrinsicmotivation is is a better fuel,
and we feel better doing iteven when we're going
through difficult times when we havethat is the back, but.
Far, far more powerful.
So, you know that,
this is the show is calledthe Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
(28:13):
and we've hinted at that a little bit.
Is there anything else, though,that you would say?
Because the book isn'teverybody, we're talking with Steve
Magnus, the author of Win the Inside Game.
And, the book is specificallya, quote, leadership book, right?
For us to be highly effective leaders,the better, the better
we become as a human, the betterwe have the chance to become as a leader,
(28:36):
which is one of the reasonswhy I have you here.
But is there a is there any specific
advice or
counsel that you would give uswith our leadership?
Hats on, based on the work in this book?
Oh, that's a great question.
And I think you you nailed the question,which is
I think it starts with often
(28:56):
leadersalmost neglecting ignore themselves
because what happens isyou're in the leadership position.
You're saying, okay,I've got all these people I'm responsible
for, I want to help them,which is noble, right?
And you see the same thing in teaching
because what our teachers,their leaders of students.
Right.
(29:16):
And neglecting it and because of that,if you look at the data and the research
both and leadership positions,teaching or other other professions
like that,the burnout rate is pretty dang high.
And what I would argue there isthere's stuff on leadership in the book,
but I think it starts with understandingthat, like,
we've gotta take care of our basicpsychology,
(29:38):
like needs to put us in a positionwhere we're in a healthy place, where
we're not feeling in that survival mode,where we're feeling like we have
that motivation under usand that we can weather the storm.
In the book,I have a chapter on learning how to lose,
and I look at it from a sporting context,but it also applies to leadership,
(29:59):
which is that like the
when the, you know, when the stuff hitsthe fan and you're kind of like,
okay, this didn't go well,how do we bounce back?
Like the more resilient you are,the more you have
that secure sense of self and identity,the more you have an understanding
(30:20):
where you belongand where defining you're defining success
in a way that doesn't put youin, as we talked about at the end,
the win at all costs, but a successfulstriving that aligns with your values,
the better you're ableto navigate that situation and the better
you're able to lead.So that's how I would kind of see this.
(30:41):
This book isit gives you the building blocks
to make sure that you feel likeyou're better human being,
which then puts you in a better spotto be able to lead others
without feeling the brunt of the stressthat you're experiencing.
And I agree with that.
I everybody I,I recommend this book highly.
I'm having this conversationwith Steve in early April.
(31:03):
You know, you could be listening to thiswatch this any time.
I'm having this conversationin early April.
And I read a ton, obviously, for the showand beyond.
This is one of the best booksI've read so far this year.
I love this book.
I love it, loving this conversation,and perhaps we'll figure out a way
to have a longer conversation. Steve.
But I have a couple of kind of questionsbefore we wrap up.
(31:23):
And then I ask everybody, really.
And so the first one is,what do you do for fun?
I like I know you still run orI believe that used to run, but
what do you do for fun?
That's the good question.
Right nowI have two daughters who are under two.
So life is.
If you don't think they're fun,you don't have much else.
(31:45):
That's fun.But yeah, no, that's the focus.
But you know what I'll say?
My my one daughter isjust about to be two.
Is, she's at such a fun stage,and my wife and I are just like,
how can we, like, integrate her into,like, activities?
Because it's, like, mind blowingwhere you say this is the first time,
you know, she's gone to the zoo,and it's so refreshing and so energizing
(32:10):
because you get to almost, like,see things through a child's eyes.
So really, for our family, like
that is the fun where like,what new things can we do?
Because it's all new to her.
And, that's really excitingand fun in our life.
I love that.
And what Stephen,are you reading these days?
Oh gosh, I read a ton.
(32:30):
But one of the books that I,that I just finished that is actually
new, that I love this,
a story is a deal by will store
and it's essentially on thethe science of storytelling and how,
how humansare essentially storytelling machines
and how that impactsnot only how we live our lives,
(32:51):
but also the stories we telland leadership positions.
He's got a chapter on, on, you know, howthat kind of creates the story of,
do we see this
the, the, the company see themselvesas the underdog or the favorite?
And I think that stuff is so interestingand compelling.
We will have the linknot only to that book,
(33:11):
but to Steve's book in the show notes.
If you missed those because you were,listening while you were exercising
or driving or whatever,you can get all that in the show notes.
I hope that you'll do that.
Steve,where can we learn more about your work?
You what you're up to?
The book.
What else?
Yeah, you can check out.
All my stuff is at Steve magnus.com.
(33:33):
I'm on all social media at Steve
Magnus and the books availablewherever you are.
You can buy books nowadays.
Wherever fine books are sold.
They used to say, Steve.
So now, before we go and before I saysome final things with Steve,
I have the question that I askall of you every episode.
(33:54):
And if you've been here before,you know what I'm about to ask.
The question is, now what?
What actionare you going to take as a result of this?
What insight did you get todaythat is useful to you?
Not just it's useful,but that you will use
maybe some of the thingsthat we talked about, about
not flattening ourselvesor flattening others too much is useful.
(34:16):
Maybe the thoughts about,how we think about becoming more adaptable
or somethingyou're going to be able to apply,
maybe some of the really tactical
things that Steve shared aboutauthenticity would be helpful to you.
Maybe you're challengeda little bit about these.
Am I being really authenticor just performatively authentic?
(34:36):
I don'tknow what those things are for you,
but what I know is thatthis will have been time much better spent
if you take action on your answerto the now
what question then, if you don't?
Steve, thanks so much for being here.
It was such a pleasure to have you.
I was I've been looking forwardto it. And,
and and it didn't disappoint.
(34:58):
Thanks so much, Kevin. That means so much.
And keep doing what you're doing.It's really important.
All right, so everybody,if this was your first time.
Welcome.
If this is your, Next time,make sure that you have another next time,
make sure you're subscribedto wherever it is that you're watching us
so that you can continueto get this information.
Because every week we're back.
And if so, something that we saidor that I talked about
(35:20):
that would be helpful to youand your organization,
you can reach out to us info at Kevin
I can Viacom or any place you can find me.
You can ask me a questionand let us know how we can help you.
So again,thanks for being here and we'll be back
next week with the episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
If you are listening
to these words,I know you want to perform better.
Get better results.
Succeed and thrive.
You want this for your team
and your organization,but you need it for yourself too.
You are the focus today.
Let's talk about winning your inside gameso you can thrive as a leader
(00:30):
and a human being.
Welcome to the RemarkableLeadership Podcast, where we are
helping leaders grow personallyand professionally to lead more
effectively and make a bigger differencefor their teams, organizations,
and the world.
If you are listening to this podcastin the future, you could join us
for live episodeson your favorite social channel.
(00:50):
I guess I guess depending on whatyour favorite social channel is,
you can get informationabout when those lives happen
and get connectedand even ask questions during the shows.
By joining our Facebookor LinkedIn groups.
Two of those platformsthat these will be housed on.
And you can do that by going to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook
(01:12):
and a remarkable podcastAcademy linked in.
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book.
Flexible leadership navigate uncertaintyand lead with confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always be the best approach
in a world that is more complexand uncertain than ever.
(01:33):
Leaders need a new perspective
and a new set of toolsto help them achieve the great results.
Organizationsand team members want and need,
and that'swhat flexible leadership provides you.
You can learn more and get your copyby going to remarkable
podcast.com/flexible.
And with that let me bring in my guest.
(01:54):
His name is Steve Magnus. There he is.
And let me introduce him.
And then we will dive in.
Steve Magnus is a world renowned experton performance and a bestselling author
of Do Hard Thingsand the Science of Running.
He is also the coauthor of PeakPerformance and The Passion Paradox.
His newest book, Win the Inside Game
(02:17):
How to Move from Surviving to Thriving
and Free Yourself Up to Performis the focus of our conversation.
He is the co host of the podcast
farewelland the co-founder of The Growth Equation.
He has written for The Atlantic, Runner'sWorld and Sports Illustrated.
He's been featured in The New Yorker,
The Wall Street Journal,The New York Times, NPR, and others.
(02:39):
He has served as a performance coach
and speaker for teams and individualsin Major League Baseball,
the NFL, the NBA, the NHL,the military, and lots more.
He lives outside of Houston, Texas,and he's our guest.
Steve, welcome.
Thanks so much.
I'm. I'm glad to be here, Kevin.
All right, so I told you beforewe went live that I love your book.
(03:02):
Tell me a little bit about your story.
You have an interesting backstory,
and and we don't have time or desireto do all of that.
But tell us a little bit about whatleads you to this book and why this book.
There are back.
There we go.
All right. I can see you, Kevin.
So, I mean, the long storyshort is my background is in running.
I was a very good, high school runner.
(03:23):
Ran a four minute, one secondmile way back in high school, and,
you know, thought that was the ticket.
But then I never, ever improved.
And then I got into coaching.
Long story short,you can read about it in the book,
but went through a really toughcoaching period
where I essentially witnessedsome people, you know, doing
some unethical thingsand cheating at the highest level.
(03:47):
And all of that experiencebrought me to a point
where I was like, well,what does it mean to strive for something?
What does it mean to obtain success?
I've seen a path where in my own careerI thought the only answer was like,
be obsessed.
Forget everything else,make it my sole identity and go for it.
(04:08):
And all thatlearning led me to is burnout.
And then I saw it.
In my early coaching career, I saw someonehaving kind of like a win at all costs
model of, you know, if you want tosucceed, it's got to be win at all costs.
That means literally doing everything,anything to get that
accolade, achievement, medal,whatever it is.
(04:29):
And I've always struggled with thatbecause that's not how I saw,
successor striving in a, in a healthy way.
So I really wanted to explorewhat it means to not only,
you know, perform at a high level,but to look at
how can we do it in a mannerthat doesn't make us miserable,
(04:50):
that doesn't lead us to doing nefariousthings that allows us to feel good about,
you know, the things that we're doingin our our work, life.
So all of this work, this bookand in that conversation
leads us to think that this bookis going to be about thriving,
which of course, is inthe is in the subtitle of the book.
(05:12):
And yet the whole opening of the book,
and I think an incredibly wonderful
part of the bookis all about survival mode.
And you make the point.
And I'd like you to sharesome of it with us, that
an awful lot of us are in survival modemost of the time.
And and I think what will makethis most interesting is for us,
(05:35):
for you to tell us moreabout what you mean by that,
because I think that all of us recognize,you know, survival
in sort of the jungle kind of mode
or in the movie kind of mode.
But you make the point that we're there
a lot more than we might realizepsychologically.
So let's talk about that first.I think it's really important.
And everybody, as Steve talks about this,I'd like you to think about this both
(05:59):
for yourselfbut also with your leader hat on.
And I'm not asking you to judge others,but I think that as you listen, you'll
get some sense of how this is valuableand thinking about where others are, too.
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we look at let's startat the jungle.
Right?
So if we were in the jungle surviving
and we were under a real threat,we'd have a stress response.
(06:22):
And that stress response would put usin a place where we would essentially
have short term thinking on, oh my gosh,how do I survive this situation?
Like there's a lion, a tiger,we're running out of food.
Whatever it is, forget the future,forget the long term.
Like whatgets me through this next moment, right?
It's that fight or flight moment.
(06:43):
And what we know iswhen we're in that spot.
Yeah, it might help us,you know, escape the lion, but it's.
Yeah, I know short term, butit's really damaging over the long haul.
Now let's zoom outand take that to our modern world.
A lot of us are in a statewhere we're so focused
on the short term, where it feels like,okay, everything is overwhelming.
(07:06):
There's too much information,there's too much overload.
I don't know what to do about anything,so I'm just going to tackle
the next problem in front of me.
And what happens is we get stuckin this kind of survival mode where
instead of thinking about the future,instead of being able to zoom out,
instead of thinking,what is the impact of this?
We just get caught up in like,how do I get through this thing?
(07:28):
And to make it clear for folksis when we live
in this kind of survivalmode for too long, we end up doing things
like avoiding the hard thing right nowthat gives us lasting growth.
We do things like rationalizeand justify decisions
instead of working through themand saying, where's the truth?
(07:50):
Where's the thing that will help me,you know, get through this?
Essentially, the case that I make is it'salmost like we're, we're back in middle
school, right where we're looking aroundand we're like, I'm really anxious.
I don't quite know where I fit in.
I don't quite knowwhere my direction is going.
I don't know what to do.
(08:12):
And because of that,we get in that survival short term mode.
And instead I make the argumentthat what we need to do is, like you know,
get out of that zoom out,get some perspective,
and also fulfill ourselvesso that we can have
that security that allows us to dodo so over the long fall.
So you hinted at a couple of those thingsthat we do.
(08:33):
You call themthe protective systems in the book.
Right? And you said, well,sometimes we have we want to avoid it.
Sometimes we try to defend ourselves.
Sometimes we try to narrow our focus.
We don't stay broad, we go narrow.
And then there's one other onethat's actually far more
helpful than the first three.
(08:54):
And that's called accepting
and thinking abouthow do I grow from this point?
Why is it that we lean on the first threeand not the fourth?
Most of the time?
The simple answer isyour brain is designed
as a uncertainty reducing machine.
So when we're in those moments,what is stress?
(09:16):
It's uncertainty.
I don't know how this is goingto, you know, work out.
I'm not sure what path to go in.
The simplest route is those first three,
which if we want to reduce uncertainty,what's the best way we avoid the thing?
We'll just just get it out right now.
Right?
Or we,you know, go into that defensive mode.
(09:39):
I'm going to denythe reality of the prospect that exists.
Yeah. Stick your head in the sand.
That's what it is.
The last one really sucksin the short term.
And it doesn't reduce uncertaintyin the short time
because you're essentially sayingit's a really stressful time.
I don't have the answer.
I'm not quite surewhat the path forward is,
(10:03):
but I need to accept thatand then figure out how do we transform
this into learning and growth overthe long haul, it's more beneficial,
but in the short termit doesn't eliminate that stress.
And often we're inwe're in the survival mode, our brain.
All that cares about is like,how do we reduce the stress right now?
How do we get rid of this discomfort?
(10:23):
I don't like how it feels likejust get rid of it.
Forget the long term consequences.
And I agree.
And I mentioned to you before we went livethat I see all sorts of parallels
and that some of the stuffthat you're writing about
is extremely connected to my new book,Flexible Leadership.
And this is one of those placesbecause I and I love your line, uncertain.
(10:45):
But, our brains are uncertaintyreducing machines.
I think that's right.And yet there's a certainty all around us.
And as leaders, we have to.
We can't be the ostrich.
And too often we end up defendingor justifying our natural response.
And I'm suggestingand you're suggesting that we have to move
past our natural response,that fourth thing that accept,
(11:07):
learn, grow, integrate idea
is where we can move past,
where we can movepast our natural response,
which is to do one of thosefirst three things
or to lean into our identity, which says,well, this is just the way I am.
Yeah, you're you're right.
(11:28):
You're you're spot on.
And I think this iswhy it's so important to leadership.
Because think about it.
We all know we have this natural response.
Think about when something went wrong
or where you messed up or when you chose.
I don't have. To thinkvery far back. Right. Eve?
Like probably this morning.Right. Exactly.
We all experience this especiallyin leadership, but also in life.
(11:50):
And what's the natural response?
I'll give you a better example hereis, is this how many of times
have you got in an argumentwith your significant other or spouse?
And what you're doing isyou're defending the argument
instead of listeningand understanding like,
oh gosh, this is a simple solution,but we can't get past that
(12:13):
initial response,which is, this is a threat to me.
You're attacking something that I did.
So we're going to go backand forth on this when the reality
is you're both on the same teamtrying to figure it out.
And if you realize that, you'd be like,okay, let's rationally
get through this, move past itand then say, what is that?
What is the learning and growing
so that we can, you know, we don't haveto face the same challenge beforehand.
(12:36):
But that's not our natural response.
Our natural response is,no, I'm in the right.
You're in the wrong.
Even though we're staring at the personwe love the most in the world.
And they are not a lion or a tiger.
And you're in the grocery store,not the jungle.
So look at the totally different thinggoing on here.
And yet ourthe way we're wired at some level.
Right.
(12:57):
And that's whyI think this opening part is so important.
You know, it's
as, as writers, you and
I and I appreciate this,you know, move from thriving to surviving.
It sounds good and it's true.Don't misunderstand me.
And yet we throw that wordsurviving around a lot.
And the point that you're makingand you make in the book so.
Well is that,
(13:20):
we treat a lot of stufflike surviving that we don't need to
if we would take a deep breathand step back and think about it,
we can get out of these protective,these first three protective systems.
You use a phrase in the book,a couple of different places,
and it it really struck me.
And so I'm curious what you mean, or say
(13:41):
a little bit more about this ideathat we tend to flatten our world.
What do you mean?
So here's what our brain tends to do iswe need to make sense of the world
that we live in, because our brainis essentially a it's predictive meaning.
As we go through the world,
(14:01):
we look around and our brain is like,how do I handle this next challenge?
What's this next thing coming on?
I'm about to get on on stageand have to give my pitch like, well,
do I need anxiety?
Do I need nerves? Do I need excitement?
How am I going to handle thispsychologically and biologically?
And what I mean by flattenis because of our predictive
(14:22):
kind of brain, the easiest, simplest wayto make sense of the world
is to flattenit, to turn us into like 2D caricatures.
And what I mean is youyou can probably think of situations
where you do this,where you have people in your workplace
who you essentially categorizeby their job
(14:42):
or what they do,or some simple characteristic.
You're like,you got all. Kinds of ways we do that.
Yeah, you're like,That's Jill, she's the accountant,
or that's that's Joe,you know, he's very neurotic.
Whatever it is,we just flatten people into simple labels
that help us categorize that.
(15:03):
And we don't just do it to other people,we also do it to ourselves.
Right?
We define ourselvesby a few simple characteristics,
and that helps us kind of processin our brain.
Be like, okay,when I enter should situation with Joe,
I know that he's like very meticulous.
So this is how I'm going to treat himin that two degree like helps.
(15:26):
But if we live in that flattened world,what happens is pretty simple
is that we become kind of fragile,
both in our leadership styleand our sense of self.
Because if we don't realize
and recognize the complexity of the humanssitting across from us,
then a that means that we are not
(15:49):
going to be connected with them.
Because one of the big thingson connection and belonging is that you
you get this like vulnerabilityand trust cycle, which occurs
because someone realizes that, hey,you know, Kevin sees me
as more of an accountant,like he sees me as a human being.
(16:10):
And when you get that, you say, okay,I'm going to buy into whatever
Kevin's saying because, like,I know he's got my back.
And on the B the other side of thisis that even with ourselves, right.
If we see ourselvesand flatten ourselves as like, I am Steve
and I am a runner,and that is only what I'm defined as,
(16:30):
then what happensis if running or your job,
if you're the CEO or leader or manager,if that's all you have,
then the moment that that starts to gopoorly,
let's say you get a poor job review,
then all of a sudden it feels likeit's the end of the world because
you flatten yourself where you don't seeall the many shades of gray
(16:51):
and other things that you doand are interested in in, in,
diversified sourcesof meaning that you have.
So flattening makes us fragile.
So we're talking about our identity.
Every one of the things that you say laterin the book that I thought was a really
the way you said it,I thought was really interesting.
You said, we all die once.
Athletes die twice.
(17:13):
And you said it in the contextof professional athletes, right?
That when their career ends,they have defined
they have almost assuredlydefined themselves. As,
as a player of that sport.
Right.
And when that is no longer there,then what happens?
And, you know, we've all heard,
whether you're a sports fan or not,we've heard some of the, the,
(17:35):
the, the,the sad stories about how that ends.
We also have examples where it's, there'sthere's good stories,
but that's because they were ableto manage and think about this identity
piece a little bit more.
And everything you're sayingabout flattening
ourselves and, and the way we flattenothers is so important.
And as it relates
to how we flatten ourselves,we we call ourselves we're an accountant.
(17:57):
We're this we're a leader. We're whatever.
And we don't think about,
maybe the best chapter title
I will see all year, which is acceptthe messiness of who you are.
So I want us to talkabout accepting the messiness,
because as humans, we are,
(18:17):
without question, messy, which meanswe can't define ourselves by one
word, one phrase, one personality style,one leadership style, whatever.
One generation,however you want to put that.
So why is it so importantif we want to move towards thriving,
that we accept our messiness,and then perhaps even how, Steve,
(18:37):
can we help others accept theirs?
Yeah, it's important because, as I said,
when we flatten ourselves,we make us ourselves fragile.
When we accept the messiness,we become resilient.
And it's it's very simple.
The reason is this is because
if you
accept the complexity of the personthat you are in the interest
(18:58):
you have, the strengths you have,and even the weaknesses or the flaws
or the drawbacks or whateverit is, the things you struggle with.
If you accept that, then your brain goes,
okay, like I get it,this is part of who I am.
Hey, that allows me to work on the thing.
If I say, hey, this is a weakness,I want to get better at this.
(19:18):
If I have accepted, I can work on it.
And B isif for whatever reason, if that shows up,
you're like, okay, yes, this is part of me
and I can navigate it if you don't.
If you go with that, we'll callthat Instagram version of yourself
where you show everybody the highlights.
You paint the best picture.
(19:39):
You say, I'm always happy, fit, funand at my best,
well, what happens is reality is goingto smack you in the face at some point.
Yeah, and if you fed your brain
the information that I'm the best,I always figure it out.
I'm always, you know, A, B and C,then when reality smacks you in the face,
(20:01):
your brain is going to go like,hey, wait a minute.
Like this isn'tthis isn't what we thought was coming.
This isn't who we thought we were.
And because of that,
your brain is going to defaultto that avoidance and protect mode.
You know, because it's saying like,this isn't what we signed up for.
The example I like to give in sports,which I think really highlights
(20:22):
this is isthis is if I sign up for a marathon.
And even as a runner I say, hey,this is going to be really freaking tough
because there's no balance about it.
It's always tough, right?
No matter how much you train,it's always tough.
And you say, this is the reality.
This is what I bring to the table, right?
This is approximatelymaybe what I think I can accomplish.
(20:45):
If you do that, then even when it getstough, your brain is going to go like,
yeah, I expected itget to tough, but we're prepared for it.
If instead I went with the Instagramversion and said,
Steve, you're a lifelong runner,this is no problem.
Like you've been in situations like thisbefore all the time.
Like you're going to handle this with abreeze the minute you get to whatever.
(21:08):
Mile 1819, 20 in reality,smacks you in your face.
Your brain is going to go,I didn't sign up for this.
This is not what you told methat you know was coming.
And I'm going to tryand convince you to quit,
which is that protect mode, because, like,we didn't sign up for it.
It's the same with our identities, right?
(21:28):
If we flatten itinstead of accept the messiness,
we set ourselves up for that fragilityand that avoidance and that protection.
And from a leadership perspective,we set ourselves up to say, well,
listen, you just have to acceptthis is how this is how I lead.
So we go in to defend you.
The other thing, you know,while we go into defending, justifying
(21:50):
and all that stuff, well,
and then we alsoeverybody can start blaming others for the
things that happen as opposed to saying,well, what part of this is ours?
So there's a whole accountabilitypiece here.
So I do want to talk about one of
the words that gets used in leadershipcircles a lot.
And it relates to all this stuff.
We're talking about our identity.
We're talking about messiness.
(22:10):
We're talking about 2D to 3D,like all that stuff.
But wherewhere does authenticity fit in here then?
Like,
what does it
mean to be authenticgiven what we've just described?
Because,you know, people want to see more of us
than the Instagram image or shortor whatever you want to call it.
(22:30):
So what's your take?
Or what would your research say to us
about advice about being more authentic?
So here's what I think matters
is that when we talk about authenticity,there's almost like
a performative variety, meaning
I've heard I should be authentic.
(22:52):
So I'm going to, you know, share a storyor two, hear and make people think
that, like, I'm being vulnerable and openand all of that good stuff.
And then there's the real variety,which I think is more important,
in which authenticity,authenticity is essentially like
being who you are in the momentand letting people see that
(23:13):
not just through your words,but also your actions.
So if you are the person who, you know,
maybe has a little bit of a more hard edgeand in leadership like,
that's okay to degree,you've just got to like be authentic
in that, that, that who you areand not like try and sugarcoat it
and not try and,you know, fake it through.
(23:35):
Do this.
And I think that's the key differencethere is that authenticity is good
as long it isit is not the performative variety.
And the last thing I'll say is,if you look at the psychology research,
is that
human beings are expertsat reading signals.
(23:56):
And what I mean by that is we're expertsat not only listening
to what you're saying,but picking up, like, your actions,
your body language,and seeing if those two match.
And I think when we comes to authenticity,this is why it's really important.
Because if I'm saying one thing,but my body language,
(24:17):
my actions behind it, all of thatis pointing in the other direction.
Our brain will pick it up and be like,there's something off here.
I'm not going to quite bywhat this person is saying.
And I think that's that rightthere is the key to authenticity is like,
you've got to have everything alignedso that that person on the receiving end
(24:38):
getting the signal says like,okay, he's being real.
Like,I need to listen to this, to accept it.
And so if, for example,
I love that if I am that leader,I'll just use your example with that.
More of a hard edgethat doesn't mean we stay there.
And just I mean, we lean into that.
It means that it'sand if that comes out, it's okay.
(25:00):
But if in that moment,if the context of that situation
that isn't serving us,then we've got to be able to shift
the may even need to apologize,or whatever.
But that authenticity isn't a an excuse
to just do whatever the heck we thinkis who we are and not try to get better.
Yeah.
It's that it's that spot on.
(25:22):
It's exactly what you talking about.
It's that flexible and adaptableleadership.
It's authenticity is seeing the situationfor what it is, right.
If you have that hard edge and you explodeon someone, it's not being like,
that's just who I am.
I explode on people.It's realizing and seeing
in this situation.
This had a negative effect on A, B and C,and I realized and could see that
(25:45):
this is my this is on me for going too farin that direction.
It can be my natural response,but it doesn't have to be my
it doesn't have to be my auto response.
Yes, that's a huge difference.
So, I,
could spend the entire entire conversation
times threejust on this identity and survival stuff.
(26:07):
But I want us to at least moveto what you mean by thriving.
And so I want to aska couple more questions before we finish.
So when you say thriving,
what does that mean?
Because we've mostly been talkingabout surviving so far.
Like what does it mean?
But how would you define thriving for us?
Yeah, I think what it is.
(26:27):
And if you look at the psychology research, it's defined in so many different ways.
But to me
it looks that
you feel like you have autonomy,
meaning like you have some sayin the direction that you're headed.
You feel like you're contributing.
(26:48):
There's some significancebehind the work that you're doing.
And we're talkingabout thriving in the workplace.
We could talk about sports,but the same thing there's significance.
You're a contributor. It's meaningful.
You feel like you belong.
Meaning there is connectionto those around you and you feel like
you're essentially at home, right?
(27:10):
You have a spot.
And I think when we look at thosekind of three things and we could again
include things like competency,meaning like you feel like you're
making progress towards somethingmeaningful.
There's all sorts of variations,
but to me that isit is like we want to feel significant.
We want to feel directed.
We want to feel belonging
(27:31):
and if we have those things,then chances are in the research backs
this up is we're going to stokeour intrinsic motivation,
meaningwe're not going to just be motivated by
the accolades, achievements, the money,whatever it is.
But for the joy of the pursuit,for the challenge of the thing,
the task we're taking onand what we know over the long haul
(27:53):
is that intrinsicmotivation is is a better fuel,
and we feel better doing iteven when we're going
through difficult times when we havethat is the back, but.
Far, far more powerful.
So, you know that,
this is the show is calledthe Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
(28:13):
and we've hinted at that a little bit.
Is there anything else, though,that you would say?
Because the book isn'teverybody, we're talking with Steve
Magnus, the author of Win the Inside Game.
And, the book is specificallya, quote, leadership book, right?
For us to be highly effective leaders,the better, the better
we become as a human, the betterwe have the chance to become as a leader,
(28:36):
which is one of the reasonswhy I have you here.
But is there a is there any specific
advice or
counsel that you would give uswith our leadership?
Hats on, based on the work in this book?
Oh, that's a great question.
And I think you you nailed the question,which is
I think it starts with often
(28:56):
leadersalmost neglecting ignore themselves
because what happens isyou're in the leadership position.
You're saying, okay,I've got all these people I'm responsible
for, I want to help them,which is noble, right?
And you see the same thing in teaching
because what our teachers,their leaders of students.
Right.
(29:16):
And neglecting it and because of that,if you look at the data and the research
both and leadership positions,teaching or other other professions
like that,the burnout rate is pretty dang high.
And what I would argue there isthere's stuff on leadership in the book,
but I think it starts with understandingthat, like,
we've gotta take care of our basicpsychology,
(29:38):
like needs to put us in a positionwhere we're in a healthy place, where
we're not feeling in that survival mode,where we're feeling like we have
that motivation under usand that we can weather the storm.
In the book,I have a chapter on learning how to lose,
and I look at it from a sporting context,but it also applies to leadership,
(29:59):
which is that like the
when the, you know, when the stuff hitsthe fan and you're kind of like,
okay, this didn't go well,how do we bounce back?
Like the more resilient you are,the more you have
that secure sense of self and identity,the more you have an understanding
(30:20):
where you belongand where defining you're defining success
in a way that doesn't put youin, as we talked about at the end,
the win at all costs, but a successfulstriving that aligns with your values,
the better you're ableto navigate that situation and the better
you're able to lead.So that's how I would kind of see this.
(30:41):
This book isit gives you the building blocks
to make sure that you feel likeyou're better human being,
which then puts you in a better spotto be able to lead others
without feeling the brunt of the stressthat you're experiencing.
And I agree with that.
I everybody I,I recommend this book highly.
I'm having this conversationwith Steve in early April.
(31:03):
You know, you could be listening to thiswatch this any time.
I'm having this conversationin early April.
And I read a ton, obviously, for the showand beyond.
This is one of the best booksI've read so far this year.
I love this book.
I love it, loving this conversation,and perhaps we'll figure out a way
to have a longer conversation. Steve.
But I have a couple of kind of questionsbefore we wrap up.
(31:23):
And then I ask everybody, really.
And so the first one is,what do you do for fun?
I like I know you still run orI believe that used to run, but
what do you do for fun?
That's the good question.
Right nowI have two daughters who are under two.
So life is.
If you don't think they're fun,you don't have much else.
(31:45):
That's fun.But yeah, no, that's the focus.
But you know what I'll say?
My my one daughter isjust about to be two.
Is, she's at such a fun stage,and my wife and I are just like,
how can we, like, integrate her into,like, activities?
Because it's, like, mind blowingwhere you say this is the first time,
you know, she's gone to the zoo,and it's so refreshing and so energizing
(32:10):
because you get to almost, like,see things through a child's eyes.
So really, for our family, like
that is the fun where like,what new things can we do?
Because it's all new to her.
And, that's really excitingand fun in our life.
I love that.
And what Stephen,are you reading these days?
Oh gosh, I read a ton.
(32:30):
But one of the books that I,that I just finished that is actually
new, that I love this,
a story is a deal by will store
and it's essentially on thethe science of storytelling and how,
how humansare essentially storytelling machines
and how that impactsnot only how we live our lives,
(32:51):
but also the stories we telland leadership positions.
He's got a chapter on, on, you know, howthat kind of creates the story of,
do we see this
the, the, the company see themselvesas the underdog or the favorite?
And I think that stuff is so interestingand compelling.
We will have the linknot only to that book,
(33:11):
but to Steve's book in the show notes.
If you missed those because you were,listening while you were exercising
or driving or whatever,you can get all that in the show notes.
I hope that you'll do that.
Steve,where can we learn more about your work?
You what you're up to?
The book.
What else?
Yeah, you can check out.
All my stuff is at Steve magnus.com.
(33:33):
I'm on all social media at Steve
Magnus and the books availablewherever you are.
You can buy books nowadays.
Wherever fine books are sold.
They used to say, Steve.
So now, before we go and before I saysome final things with Steve,
I have the question that I askall of you every episode.
(33:54):
And if you've been here before,you know what I'm about to ask.
The question is, now what?
What actionare you going to take as a result of this?
What insight did you get todaythat is useful to you?
Not just it's useful,but that you will use
maybe some of the thingsthat we talked about, about
not flattening ourselvesor flattening others too much is useful.
(34:16):
Maybe the thoughts about,how we think about becoming more adaptable
or somethingyou're going to be able to apply,
maybe some of the really tactical
things that Steve shared aboutauthenticity would be helpful to you.
Maybe you're challengeda little bit about these.
Am I being really authenticor just performatively authentic?
(34:36):
I don'tknow what those things are for you,
but what I know is thatthis will have been time much better spent
if you take action on your answerto the now
what question then, if you don't?
Steve, thanks so much for being here.
It was such a pleasure to have you.
I was I've been looking forwardto it. And,
and and it didn't disappoint.
(34:58):
Thanks so much, Kevin. That means so much.
And keep doing what you're doing.It's really important.
All right, so everybody,if this was your first time.
Welcome.
If this is your, Next time,make sure that you have another next time,
make sure you're subscribedto wherever it is that you're watching us
so that you can continueto get this information.
Because every week we're back.
And if so, something that we saidor that I talked about
(35:20):
that would be helpful to youand your organization,
you can reach out to us info at Kevin
I can Viacom or any place you can find me.
You can ask me a questionand let us know how we can help you.
So again,thanks for being here and we'll be back
next week with the episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
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