May 1, 2024 • 14 mins
Gaslighting is a phrase we use to mean being manipulated and to have your reality questioned.
Cults have been doing it for decades, maybe even for thousands of years.
Today I'm going to scratch the surface a bit.
Come and have a listen.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Richard (00:02):
And hello to you! And welcome to the Richard Nicholls
Podcast, the personaldevelopment podcast series
that's here to help inspire,educate and motivate you to be
the best you can be! I'mpsychotherapist Richard Nicholls
and this episode is titledGaslighting.
(00:22):
And if you're ready, we'll startthe show! Hey there, me again.
I say again, but unless you're asubscriber to my Patreon stuff,
you don't hear from me thatoften I guess.
If you listen to my short,bonus, Friday episodes, then I'm
(00:44):
hardly around for more than halfan hour a month for you.
But if you hang on my everyword, then you probably remember
a couple of weeks ago, when Ibriefly mentioned that I was
presenting at a conference.
It was the episode about selfdiscipline.
You might remember that episodebecause it was the episode that
I started by saying Alright,everybody peeps! Which is a
(01:05):
throwback to a Harry Enfieldcharacter from the 80s.
And clearly, a desperate plightfor me to try and regain my
youth.
It was the episode where I spokeabout good old Phineas Gage, the
guy who probably had the mostfamous brain injury in history.
Now, you remember it now, don'tyou?
Yes, of course you do.
(01:25):
The reason I talk about it nowis because of that conference
invitation.
Because I was expecting them toask me to present something to
this massive group of othertherapists all about podcasting.
The ethics of podcasting, how tohandle it as a therapist if
you've got clients who listen,that sort of thing.
How to not break confidentialityif you've got a story that you
(01:48):
want to share, all that sort ofstuff.
But after a lovely Zoom catch upwith the organiser earlier in
the week They've told me thatthey simply want me to tell my
story, how I became a therapist.
They just want me to talk abouthow I became a podcaster, just
the story of my life, really.
And I thought, how could I makethat worthy of being put up in a
(02:10):
hotel, taken out to dinner,given a free conference?
The little boy in me came out,comes to the surface, the
imposter, just like it alwaysdoes, that's what it is to be
human.
Anyway.
I digress, because I started theepisode asking you to remember
me telling you about theconference presentation.
And I wonder how easy it was foryou to recall that.
(02:32):
Memory is a curious thing, yousee, and you've heard me say
quite a few things over the lastfew weeks.
Especially if you listen to myFriday episodes as well.
Maybe that phrase, alrighteverybody peeps, probably rang a
bell, didn't it?
Maybe the invitation to theconference thing rings a bell
now, doesn't it?
Does it?
Well, because, as you probablyrealise by now, I made that up.
(02:57):
I didn't mention it a few weeksago at all.
That was a lie.
But I can guarantee thatplanting that seed that I told
you about at a conference, itwould have meant that the next
time I mentioned it, it wouldhave genuinely felt as if I'd
talked about it more often thanI actually have.
Because that's just how memorieswork.
(03:17):
Whether they're real memories orfalse memories.
They're easily manipulated.
And I want to talk about that alittle bit today, because it's
not uncommon for people to usethis quirk to our memories, to
manipulate and control people.
And the more times that we talkabout it, the more times that we
shine a spotlight onto it, theless likely it is that people
(03:37):
are going to fall for thosetricks.
And hopefully, also preventpeople from acting that way in
the first place.
Because once everybody knowsthat this manipulation exists
and the secret's out there,they're less likely to be
manipulative, I hope.
Now in popular culture, sincethe 60s really, it's been called
gaslighting.
I'm sure you've heard the termbefore.
(03:58):
And if not, well, now you have.
Gaslight was a play, it was athriller, set in Victorian
London, about somebody trying tofind some hidden jewels in an
attic, trying to convince hiswife that she's going crazy,
because every time he secretlygoes into the attic to try and
find these jewels, he turns onthe gaslight in there and it
dims it in the rest of the housea little bit.
(04:20):
And then when she asks him whyit keeps happening, he tries to
convince her that it's alwaysbeen that dim, and she's
imagining things, because if shecan go crazy, she gets
hospitalised, he's free to thenkeep the jewels all to himself.
That's how gaslighting, thephrase, came about.
That's how new words end upcoming into being.
(04:40):
Now, because the termgaslighting has gone from being
this extreme brainwashing termof the 1970s, to the more sort
of throwaway comments of today,where anyone in defence mode
who's angry and says things theydon't mean ends up being called
a manipulating gaslighter.
(05:02):
I think this needs addressing alittle, because the term
gaslighting is getting chuckedabout after just a simple
argument.
I think probably because ourcommunication skills aren't that
great and any disagreement comesacross as a threat.
But genuine, abusive gaslightingis very different and if people
(05:22):
don't see the difference betweensomeone using normal human
defense mechanisms and someonewho's trying to get you
sectioned under the MentalHealth Act then relationships
might end unnecessarily becausenot everyone who's defensive is
a manipulative gas lighter.
Now, I love that words canchange over time.
(05:42):
That's how language works.
I'm a big fan of language.
I use it all the time.
But if we use gaslighting as aphrase for the normal
unconscious defense mechanismsthat we all have, then we are
going to need a new word for thegenuine, deliberate abusers.
Because it is a form of abuse,it really is.
(06:04):
And stories like this do come upin the therapy room quite a lot.
Clients will say that theirabuser would say things like,
You're insane, that neverhappened.
When actually it completely did.
Or, All of our friends thinkyou're overreacting.
That sort of thing.
And why people do that is apodcast topic all of itself, and
(06:25):
it's probably to do with a needfor power, authority, control.
Now, it's one thing to preferit.
But it's another to actuallyneed it, and it wouldn't
surprise me if most abusers hada neglectful childhood.
Not that it excuses it, but itexplains it, if nothing else.
Abuse is abuse, whether it'sphysical or psychological.
(06:47):
They're both cruel and damaging.
But I guess some abusers don'twant to leave marks that other
people can see, do they?
Or maybe they just don't want tobe violent, but they still feel
that need for control.
And this is the differencebetween the original term for
gaslighting from the 60s and70s, where it was all about
(07:07):
tricking partners into thinkingthat they were more important to
them when they weren't, so as tocon them out of money or
something, and then nowadayswe've got the more modern
version of it that we talk aboutnow, where the abuser does
actually love and care for theirpartner.
They actually want therelationship, but they want it
(07:28):
on their terms.
They don't want to bechallenged.
They don't want to be controlledin any way themselves.
And so they'll shut down theirpartner's complaints.
They'll not allow them to havetheir own reality.
And this happens a lot ifsomebody is a serial cheater.
Now, I'm not saying thateveryone listening whose partner
might reject how they feel ischeating on them.
(07:51):
But the opposite way around islikely to be true.
That everyone whose partner ischeating is having their
emotions rejected.
And what I mean by that is ifyou were to say something like,
I'm feeling insecure, or I feelthat you don't love me, and you
keep getting told that the wayyou feel is irrelevant.
(08:13):
Then you both need to explorehow you feel.
You both need to accept thatyour feelings are valid.
They might not be true.
It might be that there is noneed for that insecurity.
That there is no need for thatunloved feeling.
But if you don't both exploreit, then it doesn't go away.
(08:34):
So, explore it.
If your partner comes to you andsays those things, then you need
to know that that is theirreality.
Even if it's wrong to you, evenif you know that what they're
saying is wrong, their body isstill holding those emotions.
Talking about it, finding waysto boost their security and help
(08:57):
them to see that you do care forthem, is the answer.
Not belittling them.
No relationship advice columnever suggests that, does it?
And for good reason.
So, if you're on the receivingend of the possible gaslighting,
you need to stick to yourreality.
Even if you're wrong, thosefeelings need exploring.
(09:19):
Explain that even if you'rewrong about them cheating, for
example, it's still a normalthing to be upset if you thought
that they were.
Now, humans are defensive.
We say things we don't mean, andwe do things we don't really
want to do.
On its own having a partner thatkeeps shutting you down isn't a
(09:39):
red flag.
It's not a red flag that therelationship is going to be
problematic.
Maybe it's an orange flag,though, which is livable.
But if you combine it with othercoloured flags, it soon becomes
a big red one.
Now, another flag would bethings like isolating you from
friends and family, or justtrusted people.
(09:59):
Trying to remove people whocould actually support you from
your life, so that all you'vegot left is them.
Now that's quite a, quite a bigred flag, actually.
And gaslighters know that ifyou've got other people who
might see through their lies andmanipulation, then it undermines
them.
And they need you all tothemselves.
(10:21):
Because you can't control a TVif there are multiple remotes.
Someone else can easily changethe channel, can't they?
And gaslighters know that.
For all I know, somebodylistening to this is
unconsciously driven to be agaslighter like that.
And I know it's more often aconscious choice, a deliberate
decision that they want tomanipulate, but sometimes people
(10:44):
don't actually realise themanipulation games that they're
playing.
So if you find yourself sayingthings like, Your friends are
crazy, they can't be trusted,and I'm the only one you can
rely on, or I'm trying toprotect you, other people will
take advantage of you.
Then step back a bit, and askyourself why you feel that need.
(11:06):
What's really going on there?
How does it feel knowing thatyour partner can make their own
choices?
Have their own friends outsideof the relationship?
Because a healthy relationshiphas those elements.
Long term, happy marriages arebased on just that.
We have to exist outside of eachother.
(11:29):
Otherwise we become enmeshed andwe lose our individuality, our
sense of self.
So, like I say, how does it feelknowing that your partner can
make their own choices, havetheir own friends outside of the
relationship?
Healthy people would say itfeels nice, it feels comforting.
(11:52):
Someone with either conscious ortotally buried and unconscious
insecurities would say it feelsthreatening and dangerous.
Now the elephant in the roomhere How long are we in?
Ah, well over ten minutes in.
Hmm.
Is that this is more often thannot something that men do.
(12:14):
It's not unique to men, believeme, but we do still live in a
sexist society that undermineswomen and gives men some
permission to throw aroundaccusations that women are
overly emotional, overlysensitive, a crazy psycho who
imagines things.
And I mention this becausegaslighting can happen outside
(12:35):
of intimate relationships aswell.
These same things happen inboardrooms, meeting rooms and
offices all over the world, evenuniversities and other
institutions can find gaslighters manipulating their
staff or students.
And it's more often than not menthat do it.
And it is a nurture thing, not anature thing.
(12:58):
This isn't caused bytestosterone.
It's caused by sexism.
We hear a lot of stories wherewomen complain about sexism in
the workplace or in education.
And the sexism fuels thegaslighting.
You get, Don't be so sensitive.
Oh, I was just joking, they'llsay.
Don't be so paranoid.
Things like that.
(13:19):
Or worse You know, I'm worriedabout you.
I don't think you're well.
And it's horrible, I know, butsometimes we have to document
everything to prevent beingmanipulated.
Summarising the actions frommeetings in follow up emails, if
you have to, so that someonedoesn't claim you agreed to
something that you didn't.
(13:41):
And if someone tries tocontradict your reality, give
yourself some time, giveyourself some space to look into
it.
Let me sleep on that, you know,that sort of thing.
Or I'll look into it, let me getback to you.
Things like that.
Even if all it does is confirmyour suspicions that they're a
manipulating gaslighter andyou've got to watch yourself
around them.
(14:01):
So whether it's in a work, restor play scenario, if you find
yourself thinking Am I losing mymind here?
Can I trust my reality?
Consider it a red flag forgaslighting rather than a sign
of anything schizophrenic.
Especially if someone or someinstitution is dismissing how
you feel and is putting steps inplace to prevent any social
(14:25):
support.
It might not be that you'regoing crazy after all.
Might just be that someone wantsyou to think you are.
So, let's leave all that herefor today.
Enjoy your week.
Enjoy your month.
Don't let anybody control you.
And I'll speak to you again verysoon.
Take care, folks.
Bye for now.
And hello to you! And welcome to the Richard Nicholls
Podcast, the personaldevelopment podcast series
that's here to help inspire,educate and motivate you to be
the best you can be! I'mpsychotherapist Richard Nicholls
and this episode is titledGaslighting.
(00:22):
And if you're ready, we'll startthe show! Hey there, me again.
I say again, but unless you're asubscriber to my Patreon stuff,
you don't hear from me thatoften I guess.
If you listen to my short,bonus, Friday episodes, then I'm
(00:44):
hardly around for more than halfan hour a month for you.
But if you hang on my everyword, then you probably remember
a couple of weeks ago, when Ibriefly mentioned that I was
presenting at a conference.
It was the episode about selfdiscipline.
You might remember that episodebecause it was the episode that
I started by saying Alright,everybody peeps! Which is a
(01:05):
throwback to a Harry Enfieldcharacter from the 80s.
And clearly, a desperate plightfor me to try and regain my
youth.
It was the episode where I spokeabout good old Phineas Gage, the
guy who probably had the mostfamous brain injury in history.
Now, you remember it now, don'tyou?
Yes, of course you do.
(01:25):
The reason I talk about it nowis because of that conference
invitation.
Because I was expecting them toask me to present something to
this massive group of othertherapists all about podcasting.
The ethics of podcasting, how tohandle it as a therapist if
you've got clients who listen,that sort of thing.
How to not break confidentialityif you've got a story that you
(01:48):
want to share, all that sort ofstuff.
But after a lovely Zoom catch upwith the organiser earlier in
the week They've told me thatthey simply want me to tell my
story, how I became a therapist.
They just want me to talk abouthow I became a podcaster, just
the story of my life, really.
And I thought, how could I makethat worthy of being put up in a
(02:10):
hotel, taken out to dinner,given a free conference?
The little boy in me came out,comes to the surface, the
imposter, just like it alwaysdoes, that's what it is to be
human.
Anyway.
I digress, because I started theepisode asking you to remember
me telling you about theconference presentation.
And I wonder how easy it was foryou to recall that.
(02:32):
Memory is a curious thing, yousee, and you've heard me say
quite a few things over the lastfew weeks.
Especially if you listen to myFriday episodes as well.
Maybe that phrase, alrighteverybody peeps, probably rang a
bell, didn't it?
Maybe the invitation to theconference thing rings a bell
now, doesn't it?
Does it?
Well, because, as you probablyrealise by now, I made that up.
(02:57):
I didn't mention it a few weeksago at all.
That was a lie.
But I can guarantee thatplanting that seed that I told
you about at a conference, itwould have meant that the next
time I mentioned it, it wouldhave genuinely felt as if I'd
talked about it more often thanI actually have.
Because that's just how memorieswork.
(03:17):
Whether they're real memories orfalse memories.
They're easily manipulated.
And I want to talk about that alittle bit today, because it's
not uncommon for people to usethis quirk to our memories, to
manipulate and control people.
And the more times that we talkabout it, the more times that we
shine a spotlight onto it, theless likely it is that people
(03:37):
are going to fall for thosetricks.
And hopefully, also preventpeople from acting that way in
the first place.
Because once everybody knowsthat this manipulation exists
and the secret's out there,they're less likely to be
manipulative, I hope.
Now in popular culture, sincethe 60s really, it's been called
gaslighting.
I'm sure you've heard the termbefore.
(03:58):
And if not, well, now you have.
Gaslight was a play, it was athriller, set in Victorian
London, about somebody trying tofind some hidden jewels in an
attic, trying to convince hiswife that she's going crazy,
because every time he secretlygoes into the attic to try and
find these jewels, he turns onthe gaslight in there and it
dims it in the rest of the housea little bit.
(04:20):
And then when she asks him whyit keeps happening, he tries to
convince her that it's alwaysbeen that dim, and she's
imagining things, because if shecan go crazy, she gets
hospitalised, he's free to thenkeep the jewels all to himself.
That's how gaslighting, thephrase, came about.
That's how new words end upcoming into being.
(04:40):
Now, because the termgaslighting has gone from being
this extreme brainwashing termof the 1970s, to the more sort
of throwaway comments of today,where anyone in defence mode
who's angry and says things theydon't mean ends up being called
a manipulating gaslighter.
(05:02):
I think this needs addressing alittle, because the term
gaslighting is getting chuckedabout after just a simple
argument.
I think probably because ourcommunication skills aren't that
great and any disagreement comesacross as a threat.
But genuine, abusive gaslightingis very different and if people
(05:22):
don't see the difference betweensomeone using normal human
defense mechanisms and someonewho's trying to get you
sectioned under the MentalHealth Act then relationships
might end unnecessarily becausenot everyone who's defensive is
a manipulative gas lighter.
Now, I love that words canchange over time.
(05:42):
That's how language works.
I'm a big fan of language.
I use it all the time.
But if we use gaslighting as aphrase for the normal
unconscious defense mechanismsthat we all have, then we are
going to need a new word for thegenuine, deliberate abusers.
Because it is a form of abuse,it really is.
(06:04):
And stories like this do come upin the therapy room quite a lot.
Clients will say that theirabuser would say things like,
You're insane, that neverhappened.
When actually it completely did.
Or, All of our friends thinkyou're overreacting.
That sort of thing.
And why people do that is apodcast topic all of itself, and
(06:25):
it's probably to do with a needfor power, authority, control.
Now, it's one thing to preferit.
But it's another to actuallyneed it, and it wouldn't
surprise me if most abusers hada neglectful childhood.
Not that it excuses it, but itexplains it, if nothing else.
Abuse is abuse, whether it'sphysical or psychological.
(06:47):
They're both cruel and damaging.
But I guess some abusers don'twant to leave marks that other
people can see, do they?
Or maybe they just don't want tobe violent, but they still feel
that need for control.
And this is the differencebetween the original term for
gaslighting from the 60s and70s, where it was all about
(07:07):
tricking partners into thinkingthat they were more important to
them when they weren't, so as tocon them out of money or
something, and then nowadayswe've got the more modern
version of it that we talk aboutnow, where the abuser does
actually love and care for theirpartner.
They actually want therelationship, but they want it
(07:28):
on their terms.
They don't want to bechallenged.
They don't want to be controlledin any way themselves.
And so they'll shut down theirpartner's complaints.
They'll not allow them to havetheir own reality.
And this happens a lot ifsomebody is a serial cheater.
Now, I'm not saying thateveryone listening whose partner
might reject how they feel ischeating on them.
(07:51):
But the opposite way around islikely to be true.
That everyone whose partner ischeating is having their
emotions rejected.
And what I mean by that is ifyou were to say something like,
I'm feeling insecure, or I feelthat you don't love me, and you
keep getting told that the wayyou feel is irrelevant.
(08:13):
Then you both need to explorehow you feel.
You both need to accept thatyour feelings are valid.
They might not be true.
It might be that there is noneed for that insecurity.
That there is no need for thatunloved feeling.
But if you don't both exploreit, then it doesn't go away.
(08:34):
So, explore it.
If your partner comes to you andsays those things, then you need
to know that that is theirreality.
Even if it's wrong to you, evenif you know that what they're
saying is wrong, their body isstill holding those emotions.
Talking about it, finding waysto boost their security and help
(08:57):
them to see that you do care forthem, is the answer.
Not belittling them.
No relationship advice columnever suggests that, does it?
And for good reason.
So, if you're on the receivingend of the possible gaslighting,
you need to stick to yourreality.
Even if you're wrong, thosefeelings need exploring.
(09:19):
Explain that even if you'rewrong about them cheating, for
example, it's still a normalthing to be upset if you thought
that they were.
Now, humans are defensive.
We say things we don't mean, andwe do things we don't really
want to do.
On its own having a partner thatkeeps shutting you down isn't a
(09:39):
red flag.
It's not a red flag that therelationship is going to be
problematic.
Maybe it's an orange flag,though, which is livable.
But if you combine it with othercoloured flags, it soon becomes
a big red one.
Now, another flag would bethings like isolating you from
friends and family, or justtrusted people.
(09:59):
Trying to remove people whocould actually support you from
your life, so that all you'vegot left is them.
Now that's quite a, quite a bigred flag, actually.
And gaslighters know that ifyou've got other people who
might see through their lies andmanipulation, then it undermines
them.
And they need you all tothemselves.
(10:21):
Because you can't control a TVif there are multiple remotes.
Someone else can easily changethe channel, can't they?
And gaslighters know that.
For all I know, somebodylistening to this is
unconsciously driven to be agaslighter like that.
And I know it's more often aconscious choice, a deliberate
decision that they want tomanipulate, but sometimes people
(10:44):
don't actually realise themanipulation games that they're
playing.
So if you find yourself sayingthings like, Your friends are
crazy, they can't be trusted,and I'm the only one you can
rely on, or I'm trying toprotect you, other people will
take advantage of you.
Then step back a bit, and askyourself why you feel that need.
(11:06):
What's really going on there?
How does it feel knowing thatyour partner can make their own
choices?
Have their own friends outsideof the relationship?
Because a healthy relationshiphas those elements.
Long term, happy marriages arebased on just that.
We have to exist outside of eachother.
(11:29):
Otherwise we become enmeshed andwe lose our individuality, our
sense of self.
So, like I say, how does it feelknowing that your partner can
make their own choices, havetheir own friends outside of the
relationship?
Healthy people would say itfeels nice, it feels comforting.
(11:52):
Someone with either conscious ortotally buried and unconscious
insecurities would say it feelsthreatening and dangerous.
Now the elephant in the roomhere How long are we in?
Ah, well over ten minutes in.
Hmm.
Is that this is more often thannot something that men do.
(12:14):
It's not unique to men, believeme, but we do still live in a
sexist society that undermineswomen and gives men some
permission to throw aroundaccusations that women are
overly emotional, overlysensitive, a crazy psycho who
imagines things.
And I mention this becausegaslighting can happen outside
(12:35):
of intimate relationships aswell.
These same things happen inboardrooms, meeting rooms and
offices all over the world, evenuniversities and other
institutions can find gaslighters manipulating their
staff or students.
And it's more often than not menthat do it.
And it is a nurture thing, not anature thing.
(12:58):
This isn't caused bytestosterone.
It's caused by sexism.
We hear a lot of stories wherewomen complain about sexism in
the workplace or in education.
And the sexism fuels thegaslighting.
You get, Don't be so sensitive.
Oh, I was just joking, they'llsay.
Don't be so paranoid.
Things like that.
(13:19):
Or worse You know, I'm worriedabout you.
I don't think you're well.
And it's horrible, I know, butsometimes we have to document
everything to prevent beingmanipulated.
Summarising the actions frommeetings in follow up emails, if
you have to, so that someonedoesn't claim you agreed to
something that you didn't.
(13:41):
And if someone tries tocontradict your reality, give
yourself some time, giveyourself some space to look into
it.
Let me sleep on that, you know,that sort of thing.
Or I'll look into it, let me getback to you.
Things like that.
Even if all it does is confirmyour suspicions that they're a
manipulating gaslighter andyou've got to watch yourself
around them.
(14:01):
So whether it's in a work, restor play scenario, if you find
yourself thinking Am I losing mymind here?
Can I trust my reality?
Consider it a red flag forgaslighting rather than a sign
of anything schizophrenic.
Especially if someone or someinstitution is dismissing how
you feel and is putting steps inplace to prevent any social
(14:25):
support.
It might not be that you'regoing crazy after all.
Might just be that someone wantsyou to think you are.
So, let's leave all that herefor today.
Enjoy your week.
Enjoy your month.
Don't let anybody control you.
And I'll speak to you again verysoon.
Take care, folks.
Bye for now.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.