December 29, 2025 • 26 mins
00:00 - 26:07 - Stephen Holder from ESPN joins the show! Stephen and JMV discuss another year of no playoffs for the Colts, what they will do in the offseason, if major changes need to be made, and more!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Andy Moore Automotive Group podline from ESPN and
ESPN dot Com. Stephen Holder joins us, I'll start right here.
So the three game Philip Rivers experience, when it said
and done, was it worth it?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I don't have a problem with it. They I think
they did what they felt was their best or took
what they felt was their best option under the circumstances. Yeah,
I mean, I really I've gone round around with this.
I mean the alternative was Riley Leonard or whatever else
(00:37):
was out there on the market, which is absolutely awful, okay,
And the calculation was that Riley Leonard was not up
to the task of keeping them in the in playoff contention. Now,
I get it hindsight of twenty twenty, and Rivers didn't
get it done either, But it would be wrong to
(00:58):
say he didn't give them a chance. He did, I
thought as best or better than anyone expected, and I
think it was a justifiable move even though it did
not work.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So I was curious about this. Would was there any
way in the world they would have played Riley Leonard
if they just didn't learn that they were done on
Saturday night yesterday. Not that this matters but was that
legitimately because he was there giving Rivers the start, or
(01:32):
is that more because Fairhope Alabama was up here yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, I'll say this for Saint Stikeen. He told us
very early in the week, Philip Rivers is starting under
any circumstance. Because whether you buy this or not, I
think it's legitimate somewhat. The fate of their postseason situation
(01:58):
wasn't going to be decided until sad night, right with
the Texans game. So their preparation by that time is done,
and the preparation went to Rivers because during the week
when they were practicing, they were still alive, and so
they proceeded under that assumption. And he actually said, Shames
said it would be unfair to Riley to then pull
(02:21):
the plug and have him go start when he didn't
take the reps and didn't have the preparation. I actually
don't disagree with that. I do think that's fair. It's
like coming off the bench and trying to go replace
the starter in game. I mean, that's a really tough situation.
It would have been akin to that. So I think
that's a plausible explanation. And look, there is the reality
(02:45):
that Philip Rivers, did you know, sort of get off
the couch and come do them a favor? That is true,
and I think there was sort of this understanding that
he wants to play. He's here, let him play, even
beyond what I outline.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yes, Stephen Holder of ESPN and ESPN dot Com is
on the Andy more Atmotive Group hotline. So was it's
smart and worth it to put Sauce Gardner back out
there yesterday?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I don't think he did any sort of like long
term damage, So I mean was it smart. No, but
also not not a fireable offense or anything. Maybe that's
the wrong twisted words right now.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, been plenty of offenses up at this point.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
So yeah, I think we're okay, Yeah, well you.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Follow up, We're going with that. I do think, I
do think you have to think about it this way though.
I think Sauce has wanted to get out there. I
think there's the reality of the pressure surrounding the trade
as well. All of that probably played a role. Now
if he hasn't, he hasn't hurt himself in any sort
(04:05):
of major way. I think no harm, no foul, But
you know, look, under the circumstances, could they have made
a different decision. Yeah, they perhaps could.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Have Stephen Holder, who joins us on anymore Automotive Group hotline.
Are you cloudy with the Forrest Buckner and his future
or do you believe he's going to come back and
be good to go next year because we've gone through
next situations like this before, and especially really they're not
(04:35):
good in general, but not good at that position at
that age.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think there is legitimate, a legitimate
expectations that the surgery is going to be successful, et cetera.
But I also don't think you can just rubber stamp
success in terms of the guy being the same player
at thirty two years old next year coming off of
(05:03):
a next surgery like that. That's a realistic position to take, right.
It's okay to be optimistic and say, you know, they
they're giving good projections on recovery all that, Right, that's fine,
And I'm not a doctor, so we defer to the doctors.
But to also just assume that it's going to go
(05:24):
according to plan like that, that's probably a little too hopeful, right.
They need to kind of see how this goes. And
all I can tell you is that is that the forest.
Buction is a tough guy. But he went from never
missing any time in the lineup until about like two
years ago to the last couple of years. He has
(05:47):
had numerous injuries that he's had to either play through
or miss time for. He's been on injury reserve both
of the last two seasons now. So this is what
happens when you start to get older. Recovery gets harder.
You know, if he was twenty five, I might feel
differently about this, but he is going to be thirty
two next year, and I do think there are some
(06:07):
realities around that that we have to acknowledge. So we
hope for the best and you plan for some complications. Though,
I would say.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
He is Stephen Holder of ESPN and ESPN dot com
or the Andy Moore Automotive Group plotline. If you were
a betting person, would you bet that both he and
Warter are back next year, one or the other or neither.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
You gotta lean here.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
With both these guys, I think Ward is going to
make a go of it. That's what I think right now.
And you know, Butner that one is just completely dependent
on the neck if he is, if he can play
and can safely play and it's it's prudent for him
(06:55):
to play because those are the things he was talking about.
Like in the last couple of weeks, I thought I
heard him talk in very different terms, which was like,
you know, I got a family, I got to be smart,
I got to make you know, wise decisions. He was
talking about it in those terms, which I've not heard
him talk like that before. Right, So I think if
there's some questions there, I don't know that he's going
(07:17):
to put himself at risk, but if he is truly
cleared and feels good, I do expect the forst Buckner
to be back. He was not thinking about retirement. I
have not thought about retirement as far as I'm aware,
and I've not gotten that vibe from him, you know,
despite having regular conversations with him. So I think he's
(07:38):
planning to come back and we'll do that if.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Able okay on the field to play yesterday. Guys that
you think and you know, maybe you don't know yet
and we're guessing, but I'm curious your thoughts on those
you think we saw for the last time at Lucas
Oil Stadium in niform.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, I mean the tough question is the first question
is like, who's in charge.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Right, Well, we'll get we'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well no, no, I'm saying, because that'll that affects who
who's back, right, I mean, but I would say I
will tell you this. This is not going to be
a popular answer. But uh, as we sit here today, Uh,
there's there's not a lot of momentum for them doing
(08:29):
a deal with Ali Pearce. So that's an interesting one
to watch. And I'm not saying that can't change Chris Ballard.
If he is in charge, he's not necessarily one to
to jump up and make his best offer. Well in
that dance that and that's not his style. But that
best offer, well, let me rephrase that, the offer that's
(08:51):
going to compete with what's likely to come. It does
not appear that that offer has been tendered yet, so
I don't know how that's going to go. It's very early. Okay.
I am not making a projection. I'm not I'm not
leaning one way or the other. I'm just telling you,
as we see here today, there's not been a lot
of momentum to getting him back.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Would would that be? Would that be more?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Because of the finances moving forward in the situation or
his market value, which we're all thinking is going to
climb past a threshold in which and who knows again
who's making this particular decision, but well, his his market
value climb past a threshold in which would price out
(09:37):
the colts.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I think it's that it's his His price has gone up,
it has gone up and is going up. And I
think he understands and his representation representation will understand, you know,
what the market is out there for guys like him.
He's going to be a twenty million dollar guy potentially,
you know, I don't know. I don't know what that
(10:00):
number is. I have no idea. But he has a
very unique skill set. And all it takes is one
team to overpay. And what is even what does overpay
even mean? Right? The bottom line is you just need
one team to say that's the guy we need. And
I think his skill set for a contending sort of
(10:20):
team would be extremely attractive, you know, because you pair
him with one of these one of these elite quarterbacks
and they tell him what this guy could be. Right,
So I would argue, right now, Alec Pearce has functionally okay,
you know, we can define this. However, you want, but
functionally for most of this season, I feel like you've
(10:42):
been their number one receiver or at times this season,
let's put it that way, because I think he can
do He has the best skill set of all of them,
you know, I think that is that has been true.
If you're watching, he can do everything, and he's the
only guy they have.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That can do that.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I would recognize this that not obviously the money is
going to matter the most more than likely, but if
you're talking about where you would be more comfortable or
where you're most taken advantage of in terms of your
skill set, I think you can easily argue there is
so much of a vivid question surrounding the quarterback position.
(11:24):
I think we know who's going to be here, but
when he's going to be back, and how he's going
to look once he gets back, and what you're going
to be dealing with. His best spot probably is someplace
else for him and for him to raise the bar
in his overall game. Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I mean, if he's thinking with his head and not
his heart, then that's probably true. The reason I break
up his head versus his heart is because I do
know that Alex Pears loves it here, he really does.
And him and Daniel Jones actually are pretty tight both
you know, big golf guys, so that's kind of been
their connection, and they just really hit it off. I
(12:06):
think you saw that really on the field, but it's
also off the field as well. So Pierce really is
a Daniel Jones guy, and it's gonna be a I
think it'll be a complicated decision for him because of that,
and just because he likes Indy as well. Right, So
I don't know how this is going to go. But
but but that is a variable that I think we
(12:29):
have to take into account. But I don't disagree with you.
I do think if you're just looking at it just
cold blooded black and white, he's probably gonna have the
potential for more success somewhere else, or at least a
more sure thing. Right, that's the question, right, When is
Daniel Jones back? How is Daniel Jones physically when he
(12:51):
is back? Right? All those things impact how you can
perform as a wide receiver. So fair question.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
How would how would Chris Ballard express his position of
optimism to carly Ers Gordon in a year ender to
continue the general manager of this team. I mean, it's
is it easier said than I would believe that it
is that it's a foregone conclusion that it's time to
(13:19):
Has this long standing been to me wipe the slate clean?
Or does he does he have a stronger position than
what a lot of people like me understand.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Well, i'd say I'd say this, I don't think it's
a foregone conclusion from from Carly's perspective, but that I mean,
that's that's me taking a leap a little bit. Okay,
I admit right, all I'm saying is I don't get
that vibe from being in the building every day. I
don't think it's a slam dump. But I also admit
(13:52):
we are in uncharted territory. Okay, this is this is
a whole new ball game. Uh, this is not Jim Mersey.
This is a whole different This is a whole different situation.
So anyway to your question, I think the argument if
you want, if you want to make the argument, if
you're Chris Ballad, the argument has to be, we finally
(14:16):
figured out a pass this year. We just didn't get
to see it through because things happened, right, But I
think if you look at last year, the last offseason.
This is not me arguing for Chris Ballard. I'm just
stating a fact. Right, all the things that we have
talked about on this show for many, many years, why
doesn't Chris Baler do X? He actually did them. That's
(14:37):
the funny thing, Right. He went out and he spent
money on defense, especially in the secondary, which he was
so pigheaded about and so stubborn would never do it.
He went out and he spent money in the secondary.
He trusted his front seven. And that might have been
a failure on his part, okay, because they haven't been
able to get it done. But that's fine, we'll we'll
(15:00):
come back to that. I would say offensive line, they're
pretty stable there. They've done a good job on the
offensive line. They found some viability at quarterback for the
first time like ever under Chris Ballard except with Angelotte. Right, So,
all the things that had eluded him and made him
(15:23):
someone who people wanted to fire, he actually addressed them
this year. And then a lot of those guys got
hurt and we're not on the field and now here
we are six losses later. But I think the argument,
if he wants to make an argument to ownership. If
he needs to make an argument, the argument would be
we were on the right track. Let us finish the job.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Now.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Whether you buy that, whether Carly Urse Gordon buys that,
I don't know, Man, I have no idea, but I
think that would be the argument.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
See and I have suggested, and you know what I believe,
and everybody out there knows what I believe. With everybody,
there's nothing personal here. But I was ready to do
that in January, and then I look like a horse's
ass in September and October, and now I look like
a genius because if you'd done that in January, then
probably everybody feels better about it, and you still have
two first rounders and all that. However, I look back
(16:16):
at that moment during the NFL trade deadline as if
you really want to point to what you just magnified
in defining how if he and they return?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I think that is the reason why.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I think, and again people are gonna go, well, wait
a minute, you can get past that. But in those
moments when you're saying I believe in this, we're all in,
and this is where we're going, come hell or high water,
win or loss, you could have made that decision right
then and right there and said all right, we're going
with you guys for the foreseeable future. And then you
(16:54):
would end up excusing or making an excuse out of
the injuries that nobody around here going to buy because
it's been results over the year. Your resume is your resume,
and to me, it's time to go. But with Carly
or say Gordon, that could look and probably will look
drastically different.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Maybe I don't know. I would say a couple of things.
Number One, you thought about like, you know, you wish
you would have made the decision to get rid of
them in January and now. And listen, they thought about
it certainly, right, I mean, Jim Mercey told us he
thought about it. He was he was honest about that,
so we know it was it was on the table.
(17:35):
What the funny thing is that even had they done
that at the time, I think we'd still be here.
And when I say still be here, meaning if all
of these if all these injuries fell the way they felt,
I still think they they're not in a good place.
You know. Do they manage to win another game or two?
Maybe I don't know, but they're still going to suck right,
(17:57):
with the injuries that they had, they would not be
a good football team. So I think it really it
can't be about this year, and you're not making it
about this year. But I'm just making the point. Anyone
who's whose argument is that, well they collapsed, this team sucks,
get these guys the hell out of here, Well that's ridiculous,
all right. I mean, I just I reject that completely.
(18:19):
Like this team, Eddie. We talked about the forty nine
ers for example, right, the forty nine ers overcame and
I've heard this talking point a lot. Yeah, the forty
nine ers lost one quarterback and their backup was actually
someone else's former starter, Mac Jones. The Colts had two
quarterbacks down. You're not coming back from that. It's going
to be hell man. And so that's where they are.
(18:40):
Now what you're what we're talking there's two So there's
two separate conversations, right, and so the question is which
one takes which one takes precedent for Carli ers Gordon
and I mean, there's no way to know that. But
is she looking at it from the standpoint of we
were on the right track, or is she looking at
it in the standpoint of it doesn't matter because your
(19:02):
track record suggests you shouldn't be here.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
We're just talking out of our rear end at this
point right now.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I do that.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I do that in a lot around.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
But that's where we are, right that those are two separate,
two separate entities that you got to think about and
talk about.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I just think, to me, there's more evidence of what
he and they aren't than what September and October may
have proven to anybody else.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
No?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
That, I mean, that's.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's that's the and that's that's kind of where I
am right now, because I, like everybody else, got caught
up in those two months, and I didn't want to
hear anything about the schedule and you know how easy
it was and the teams that were played. I didn't
really want to hear about that. But now you look
back on it and you can see how you know,
(19:50):
they they faded. I just I think that overall, the
resume is more of a dictation about what you should
do here. Then you know, just the euphoria of September
and October, and then now given their circumstances of where
they are, and then you look at Shane, for example,
(20:11):
is two and nine versus Detections and the Jaguars, who
have both been up and down and up and down
like twice since the Colts have been back up. To me,
it's just like, this is easy decision to be made,
and I know it's not and I know it's going
to be something that they'll they'll wrestle with coming up
here after the end of the season next Sunday.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Listen, I listen if they fire Chris Ballard five minutes
from now, I ain't going to come on this show
and be like, you know, that's a mistake, no, man,
Like I mean, everybody gets.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
It, you know what I mean, Like, I'm not here
to do that. I am saying. I see why there
will be a conversation that this is not the slam
dunk that people think and because it is more complicated
I think for for the Rsay family than people perhaps
appreciate the other thing here. You just mentioned Shane, and
(21:08):
that's that's not a great stat for Shane, right the
division opponents. This may be unpopular, but I'm going to
separate Shane for a second, and I don't believe in
firing one and keeping the other. I don't think that
ever works. That's that's a bunch of that's a bunch
of garbage. Don't do that. That's that's never a good idea.
That being said, I think Shane Stikeen is actually a
(21:30):
legit coach. I think he's legit and I'll tell you why. Look,
I think he has actually had a lot to overcome
and has overcome a lot of it. I take that
first year, his first year coaching job is probably his best.
I don't think people appreciate just how little people think
of Gardner Minshew around the NFL, and I'm just telling
you he they were. They were a first down away
(21:53):
from the playoffs with Gardner Minshew. They had no business
being there, man, they had no business right and and
they almost pulled that up. I just think we saw
him for the first time with a viable quarterback, and
he had a historic, historically good offense while he had
that guy. And I think that is what you can
get from shaninsticking with the right guy. But we just
(22:17):
didn't get enough of it.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
It may not matter in the end, but I do
think I just want to say for Shane, I think
and people around the NFL agree, like Shane Styken, particularly
on offense, like he's he's the real deal. That's that's
what I think.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I will say this in closing with you, Steve, and
I would disagree. I think you can keep Shane and
let Chris go, but I don't think it would work
out that. I don't think it would work out that way.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I just don't personally advocate for that.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yet. I get where you're saying too.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And the other part about it is I just think
that they and I've said this a number of times,
I think they've exhausted every avenue. We've now seen a
little bit of everything, you know, even positive results over
a two month period, but again the end is the
same and December yet again was another nightmare. And hoping
(23:11):
that this was just circumstances beyond their control, there's more
proof to that being them and right now, Stephen, this
organization is the Bengals. The Bengals fumbling around that we
had known in the past. I mean, it's it's an
organization of losing until they're able to prove that. It's
(23:32):
not past a two month window. So I don't know
how much you get pass that.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well you're well, get ready for more Bengals then, because
I will tell you now, like if if they make
these changes, uh, they're going to take several steps back
before that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
No, there's no question, there's no well so, and they
may end up doing that any.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Not it just be question. But I'm just telling you,
like the listener out there, buddy, Bucky, you damn seat belt,
I'm telling you, but going to suck.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
They they may end up doing that anyway. I think
that's gonna say is now. I mean, it's not like
you got a magic elixra because you bring these guys
back and you know, you expedite that Daniel Jones, you know,
back in a big hurry.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
You know his history.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Who knows if it's going to work out that way again,
I thought that there were some evidence that maybe teams
defensively were catching on to what they're doing, and you
started to see I mean, all good questions for the
off season. But I think that they're all logical and
reasonable questions to be asking. Certainly, so we shall see No,
all fair.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
All fair? All right, I'll leave you with this. Yes,
I will tell people now, like part of part of
my reason for for for pumping the brakes on. What
I think is going to happen is people in that
building are very adamant about the plan for next year.
You know, get Daniel healthy. We're going to you know,
revamp some things, and you know, we think we can
(24:58):
pick up where we left off, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
I don't know that is how it will go.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
But well with that that takes right, with that particular angle,
sounds like everybody's coming back.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well that's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yes, oh, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Do you not think? Do you not think? And not
not you, but just generally speaking, do you not think
the people who are espousing those views to me and
my colleagues, do you not think they've had that conversation
with Carl Er.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
They have.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
No. That's that's why when I say the same thing
about the whole NFL trade deadline, about you know that
being a reasonable take that you're not going to see
the changes that you believe are necessary right here.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
So I mean, you got it.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I have my opinion, and then I have what I
think is going to happen, because we've seen this happen
way too many times in the past to think all
of a sudden, you know, there's going to be this
drastic this drastic change, or this type of change. It
wouldn't be drastic to me now, but this type of
change in general. I appreciate you as always. Man, Thank
you for hopping on here. Enjoy that trek down to
Houston for that finale that's.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Still wait out, Stephen Waite, believe me.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Steven Older, v SP and ESPN dot com some the
anymore automatic Croup pipline
On the Andy Moore Automotive Group podline from ESPN and
ESPN dot Com. Stephen Holder joins us, I'll start right here.
So the three game Philip Rivers experience, when it said
and done, was it worth it?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I don't have a problem with it. They I think
they did what they felt was their best or took
what they felt was their best option under the circumstances. Yeah,
I mean, I really I've gone round around with this.
I mean the alternative was Riley Leonard or whatever else
(00:37):
was out there on the market, which is absolutely awful, okay,
And the calculation was that Riley Leonard was not up
to the task of keeping them in the in playoff contention. Now,
I get it hindsight of twenty twenty, and Rivers didn't
get it done either, But it would be wrong to
(00:58):
say he didn't give them a chance. He did, I
thought as best or better than anyone expected, and I
think it was a justifiable move even though it did
not work.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So I was curious about this. Would was there any
way in the world they would have played Riley Leonard
if they just didn't learn that they were done on
Saturday night yesterday. Not that this matters but was that
legitimately because he was there giving Rivers the start, or
(01:32):
is that more because Fairhope Alabama was up here yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, I'll say this for Saint Stikeen. He told us
very early in the week, Philip Rivers is starting under
any circumstance. Because whether you buy this or not, I
think it's legitimate somewhat. The fate of their postseason situation
(01:58):
wasn't going to be decided until sad night, right with
the Texans game. So their preparation by that time is done,
and the preparation went to Rivers because during the week
when they were practicing, they were still alive, and so
they proceeded under that assumption. And he actually said, Shames
said it would be unfair to Riley to then pull
(02:21):
the plug and have him go start when he didn't
take the reps and didn't have the preparation. I actually
don't disagree with that. I do think that's fair. It's
like coming off the bench and trying to go replace
the starter in game. I mean, that's a really tough situation.
It would have been akin to that. So I think
that's a plausible explanation. And look, there is the reality
(02:45):
that Philip Rivers, did you know, sort of get off
the couch and come do them a favor? That is true,
and I think there was sort of this understanding that
he wants to play. He's here, let him play, even
beyond what I outline.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yes, Stephen Holder of ESPN and ESPN dot Com is
on the Andy more Atmotive Group hotline. So was it's
smart and worth it to put Sauce Gardner back out
there yesterday?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I don't think he did any sort of like long
term damage, So I mean was it smart. No, but
also not not a fireable offense or anything. Maybe that's
the wrong twisted words right now.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, been plenty of offenses up at this point.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
So yeah, I think we're okay, Yeah, well you.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Follow up, We're going with that. I do think, I
do think you have to think about it this way though.
I think Sauce has wanted to get out there. I
think there's the reality of the pressure surrounding the trade
as well. All of that probably played a role. Now
if he hasn't, he hasn't hurt himself in any sort
(04:05):
of major way. I think no harm, no foul, But
you know, look, under the circumstances, could they have made
a different decision. Yeah, they perhaps could.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Have Stephen Holder, who joins us on anymore Automotive Group hotline.
Are you cloudy with the Forrest Buckner and his future
or do you believe he's going to come back and
be good to go next year because we've gone through
next situations like this before, and especially really they're not
(04:35):
good in general, but not good at that position at
that age.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think there is legitimate, a legitimate
expectations that the surgery is going to be successful, et cetera.
But I also don't think you can just rubber stamp
success in terms of the guy being the same player
at thirty two years old next year coming off of
(05:03):
a next surgery like that. That's a realistic position to take, right.
It's okay to be optimistic and say, you know, they
they're giving good projections on recovery all that, Right, that's fine,
And I'm not a doctor, so we defer to the doctors.
But to also just assume that it's going to go
(05:24):
according to plan like that, that's probably a little too hopeful, right.
They need to kind of see how this goes. And
all I can tell you is that is that the forest.
Buction is a tough guy. But he went from never
missing any time in the lineup until about like two
years ago to the last couple of years. He has
(05:47):
had numerous injuries that he's had to either play through
or miss time for. He's been on injury reserve both
of the last two seasons now. So this is what
happens when you start to get older. Recovery gets harder.
You know, if he was twenty five, I might feel
differently about this, but he is going to be thirty
two next year, and I do think there are some
(06:07):
realities around that that we have to acknowledge. So we
hope for the best and you plan for some complications. Though,
I would say.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
He is Stephen Holder of ESPN and ESPN dot com
or the Andy Moore Automotive Group plotline. If you were
a betting person, would you bet that both he and
Warter are back next year, one or the other or neither.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
You gotta lean here.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
With both these guys, I think Ward is going to
make a go of it. That's what I think right now.
And you know, Butner that one is just completely dependent
on the neck if he is, if he can play
and can safely play and it's it's prudent for him
(06:55):
to play because those are the things he was talking about.
Like in the last couple of weeks, I thought I
heard him talk in very different terms, which was like,
you know, I got a family, I got to be smart,
I got to make you know, wise decisions. He was
talking about it in those terms, which I've not heard
him talk like that before. Right, So I think if
there's some questions there, I don't know that he's going
(07:17):
to put himself at risk, but if he is truly
cleared and feels good, I do expect the forst Buckner
to be back. He was not thinking about retirement. I
have not thought about retirement as far as I'm aware,
and I've not gotten that vibe from him, you know,
despite having regular conversations with him. So I think he's
(07:38):
planning to come back and we'll do that if.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Able okay on the field to play yesterday. Guys that
you think and you know, maybe you don't know yet
and we're guessing, but I'm curious your thoughts on those
you think we saw for the last time at Lucas
Oil Stadium in niform.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, I mean the tough question is the first question
is like, who's in charge.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Right, Well, we'll get we'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well no, no, I'm saying, because that'll that affects who
who's back, right, I mean, but I would say I
will tell you this. This is not going to be
a popular answer. But uh, as we sit here today, Uh,
there's there's not a lot of momentum for them doing
(08:29):
a deal with Ali Pearce. So that's an interesting one
to watch. And I'm not saying that can't change Chris Ballard.
If he is in charge, he's not necessarily one to
to jump up and make his best offer. Well in
that dance that and that's not his style. But that
best offer, well, let me rephrase that, the offer that's
(08:51):
going to compete with what's likely to come. It does
not appear that that offer has been tendered yet, so
I don't know how that's going to go. It's very early. Okay.
I am not making a projection. I'm not I'm not
leaning one way or the other. I'm just telling you,
as we see here today, there's not been a lot
of momentum to getting him back.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Would would that be? Would that be more?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Because of the finances moving forward in the situation or
his market value, which we're all thinking is going to
climb past a threshold in which and who knows again
who's making this particular decision, but well, his his market
value climb past a threshold in which would price out
(09:37):
the colts.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I think it's that it's his His price has gone up,
it has gone up and is going up. And I
think he understands and his representation representation will understand, you know,
what the market is out there for guys like him.
He's going to be a twenty million dollar guy potentially,
you know, I don't know. I don't know what that
(10:00):
number is. I have no idea. But he has a
very unique skill set. And all it takes is one
team to overpay. And what is even what does overpay
even mean? Right? The bottom line is you just need
one team to say that's the guy we need. And
I think his skill set for a contending sort of
(10:20):
team would be extremely attractive, you know, because you pair
him with one of these one of these elite quarterbacks
and they tell him what this guy could be. Right,
So I would argue, right now, Alec Pearce has functionally okay,
you know, we can define this. However, you want, but
functionally for most of this season, I feel like you've
(10:42):
been their number one receiver or at times this season,
let's put it that way, because I think he can
do He has the best skill set of all of them,
you know, I think that is that has been true.
If you're watching, he can do everything, and he's the
only guy they have.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
That can do that.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I would recognize this that not obviously the money is
going to matter the most more than likely, but if
you're talking about where you would be more comfortable or
where you're most taken advantage of in terms of your
skill set, I think you can easily argue there is
so much of a vivid question surrounding the quarterback position.
(11:24):
I think we know who's going to be here, but
when he's going to be back, and how he's going
to look once he gets back, and what you're going
to be dealing with. His best spot probably is someplace
else for him and for him to raise the bar
in his overall game. Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I mean, if he's thinking with his head and not
his heart, then that's probably true. The reason I break
up his head versus his heart is because I do
know that Alex Pears loves it here, he really does.
And him and Daniel Jones actually are pretty tight both
you know, big golf guys, so that's kind of been
their connection, and they just really hit it off. I
(12:06):
think you saw that really on the field, but it's
also off the field as well. So Pierce really is
a Daniel Jones guy, and it's gonna be a I
think it'll be a complicated decision for him because of that,
and just because he likes Indy as well. Right, So
I don't know how this is going to go. But
but but that is a variable that I think we
(12:29):
have to take into account. But I don't disagree with you.
I do think if you're just looking at it just
cold blooded black and white, he's probably gonna have the
potential for more success somewhere else, or at least a
more sure thing. Right, that's the question, right, When is
Daniel Jones back? How is Daniel Jones physically when he
(12:51):
is back? Right? All those things impact how you can
perform as a wide receiver. So fair question.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
How would how would Chris Ballard express his position of
optimism to carly Ers Gordon in a year ender to
continue the general manager of this team. I mean, it's
is it easier said than I would believe that it
is that it's a foregone conclusion that it's time to
(13:19):
Has this long standing been to me wipe the slate clean?
Or does he does he have a stronger position than
what a lot of people like me understand.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Well, i'd say I'd say this, I don't think it's
a foregone conclusion from from Carly's perspective, but that I mean,
that's that's me taking a leap a little bit. Okay,
I admit right, all I'm saying is I don't get
that vibe from being in the building every day. I
don't think it's a slam dump. But I also admit
(13:52):
we are in uncharted territory. Okay, this is this is
a whole new ball game. Uh, this is not Jim Mersey.
This is a whole different This is a whole different situation.
So anyway to your question, I think the argument if
you want, if you want to make the argument, if
you're Chris Ballad, the argument has to be, we finally
(14:16):
figured out a pass this year. We just didn't get
to see it through because things happened, right, But I
think if you look at last year, the last offseason.
This is not me arguing for Chris Ballard. I'm just
stating a fact. Right, all the things that we have
talked about on this show for many, many years, why
doesn't Chris Baler do X? He actually did them. That's
(14:37):
the funny thing, Right. He went out and he spent
money on defense, especially in the secondary, which he was
so pigheaded about and so stubborn would never do it.
He went out and he spent money in the secondary.
He trusted his front seven. And that might have been
a failure on his part, okay, because they haven't been
able to get it done. But that's fine, we'll we'll
(15:00):
come back to that. I would say offensive line, they're
pretty stable there. They've done a good job on the
offensive line. They found some viability at quarterback for the
first time like ever under Chris Ballard except with Angelotte. Right, So,
all the things that had eluded him and made him
(15:23):
someone who people wanted to fire, he actually addressed them
this year. And then a lot of those guys got
hurt and we're not on the field and now here
we are six losses later. But I think the argument,
if he wants to make an argument to ownership. If
he needs to make an argument, the argument would be
we were on the right track. Let us finish the job.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Now.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Whether you buy that, whether Carly Urse Gordon buys that,
I don't know, Man, I have no idea, but I
think that would be the argument.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
See and I have suggested, and you know what I believe,
and everybody out there knows what I believe. With everybody,
there's nothing personal here. But I was ready to do
that in January, and then I look like a horse's
ass in September and October, and now I look like
a genius because if you'd done that in January, then
probably everybody feels better about it, and you still have
two first rounders and all that. However, I look back
(16:16):
at that moment during the NFL trade deadline as if
you really want to point to what you just magnified
in defining how if he and they return?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I think that is the reason why.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I think, and again people are gonna go, well, wait
a minute, you can get past that. But in those
moments when you're saying I believe in this, we're all in,
and this is where we're going, come hell or high water,
win or loss, you could have made that decision right
then and right there and said all right, we're going
with you guys for the foreseeable future. And then you
(16:54):
would end up excusing or making an excuse out of
the injuries that nobody around here going to buy because
it's been results over the year. Your resume is your resume,
and to me, it's time to go. But with Carly
or say Gordon, that could look and probably will look
drastically different.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Maybe I don't know. I would say a couple of things.
Number One, you thought about like, you know, you wish
you would have made the decision to get rid of
them in January and now. And listen, they thought about
it certainly, right, I mean, Jim Mercey told us he
thought about it. He was he was honest about that,
so we know it was it was on the table.
(17:35):
What the funny thing is that even had they done
that at the time, I think we'd still be here.
And when I say still be here, meaning if all
of these if all these injuries fell the way they felt,
I still think they they're not in a good place.
You know. Do they manage to win another game or two?
Maybe I don't know, but they're still going to suck right,
(17:57):
with the injuries that they had, they would not be
a good football team. So I think it really it
can't be about this year, and you're not making it
about this year. But I'm just making the point. Anyone
who's whose argument is that, well they collapsed, this team sucks,
get these guys the hell out of here, Well that's ridiculous,
all right. I mean, I just I reject that completely.
(18:19):
Like this team, Eddie. We talked about the forty nine
ers for example, right, the forty nine ers overcame and
I've heard this talking point a lot. Yeah, the forty
nine ers lost one quarterback and their backup was actually
someone else's former starter, Mac Jones. The Colts had two
quarterbacks down. You're not coming back from that. It's going
to be hell man. And so that's where they are.
(18:40):
Now what you're what we're talking there's two So there's
two separate conversations, right, and so the question is which
one takes which one takes precedent for Carli ers Gordon
and I mean, there's no way to know that. But
is she looking at it from the standpoint of we
were on the right track, or is she looking at
it in the standpoint of it doesn't matter because your
(19:02):
track record suggests you shouldn't be here.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
We're just talking out of our rear end at this
point right now.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I do that.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I do that in a lot around.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
But that's where we are, right that those are two separate,
two separate entities that you got to think about and
talk about.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I just think, to me, there's more evidence of what
he and they aren't than what September and October may
have proven to anybody else.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
No?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
That, I mean, that's.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's that's the and that's that's kind of where I
am right now, because I, like everybody else, got caught
up in those two months, and I didn't want to
hear anything about the schedule and you know how easy
it was and the teams that were played. I didn't
really want to hear about that. But now you look
back on it and you can see how you know,
(19:50):
they they faded. I just I think that overall, the
resume is more of a dictation about what you should
do here. Then you know, just the euphoria of September
and October, and then now given their circumstances of where
they are, and then you look at Shane, for example,
(20:11):
is two and nine versus Detections and the Jaguars, who
have both been up and down and up and down
like twice since the Colts have been back up. To me,
it's just like, this is easy decision to be made,
and I know it's not and I know it's going
to be something that they'll they'll wrestle with coming up
here after the end of the season next Sunday.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Listen, I listen if they fire Chris Ballard five minutes
from now, I ain't going to come on this show
and be like, you know, that's a mistake, no, man,
Like I mean, everybody gets.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
It, you know what I mean, Like, I'm not here
to do that. I am saying. I see why there
will be a conversation that this is not the slam
dunk that people think and because it is more complicated
I think for for the Rsay family than people perhaps
appreciate the other thing here. You just mentioned Shane, and
(21:08):
that's that's not a great stat for Shane, right the
division opponents. This may be unpopular, but I'm going to
separate Shane for a second, and I don't believe in
firing one and keeping the other. I don't think that
ever works. That's that's a bunch of that's a bunch
of garbage. Don't do that. That's that's never a good idea.
That being said, I think Shane Stikeen is actually a
(21:30):
legit coach. I think he's legit and I'll tell you why. Look,
I think he has actually had a lot to overcome
and has overcome a lot of it. I take that
first year, his first year coaching job is probably his best.
I don't think people appreciate just how little people think
of Gardner Minshew around the NFL, and I'm just telling
you he they were. They were a first down away
(21:53):
from the playoffs with Gardner Minshew. They had no business
being there, man, they had no business right and and
they almost pulled that up. I just think we saw
him for the first time with a viable quarterback, and
he had a historic, historically good offense while he had
that guy. And I think that is what you can
get from shaninsticking with the right guy. But we just
(22:17):
didn't get enough of it.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
It may not matter in the end, but I do
think I just want to say for Shane, I think
and people around the NFL agree, like Shane Styken, particularly
on offense, like he's he's the real deal. That's that's
what I think.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I will say this in closing with you, Steve, and
I would disagree. I think you can keep Shane and
let Chris go, but I don't think it would work
out that. I don't think it would work out that way.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I just don't personally advocate for that.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yet. I get where you're saying too.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And the other part about it is I just think
that they and I've said this a number of times,
I think they've exhausted every avenue. We've now seen a
little bit of everything, you know, even positive results over
a two month period, but again the end is the
same and December yet again was another nightmare. And hoping
(23:11):
that this was just circumstances beyond their control, there's more
proof to that being them and right now, Stephen, this
organization is the Bengals. The Bengals fumbling around that we
had known in the past. I mean, it's it's an
organization of losing until they're able to prove that. It's
(23:32):
not past a two month window. So I don't know
how much you get pass that.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well you're well, get ready for more Bengals then, because
I will tell you now, like if if they make
these changes, uh, they're going to take several steps back
before that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
No, there's no question, there's no well so, and they
may end up doing that any.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Not it just be question. But I'm just telling you,
like the listener out there, buddy, Bucky, you damn seat belt,
I'm telling you, but going to suck.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
They they may end up doing that anyway. I think
that's gonna say is now. I mean, it's not like
you got a magic elixra because you bring these guys
back and you know, you expedite that Daniel Jones, you know,
back in a big hurry.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
You know his history.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Who knows if it's going to work out that way again,
I thought that there were some evidence that maybe teams
defensively were catching on to what they're doing, and you
started to see I mean, all good questions for the
off season. But I think that they're all logical and
reasonable questions to be asking. Certainly, so we shall see No,
all fair.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
All fair? All right, I'll leave you with this. Yes,
I will tell people now, like part of part of
my reason for for for pumping the brakes on. What
I think is going to happen is people in that
building are very adamant about the plan for next year.
You know, get Daniel healthy. We're going to you know,
revamp some things, and you know, we think we can
(24:58):
pick up where we left off, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
I don't know that is how it will go.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
But well with that that takes right, with that particular angle,
sounds like everybody's coming back.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well that's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yes, oh, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Do you not think? Do you not think? And not
not you, but just generally speaking, do you not think
the people who are espousing those views to me and
my colleagues, do you not think they've had that conversation
with Carl Er.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
They have.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
No. That's that's why when I say the same thing
about the whole NFL trade deadline, about you know that
being a reasonable take that you're not going to see
the changes that you believe are necessary right here.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
So I mean, you got it.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I have my opinion, and then I have what I
think is going to happen, because we've seen this happen
way too many times in the past to think all
of a sudden, you know, there's going to be this
drastic this drastic change, or this type of change. It
wouldn't be drastic to me now, but this type of
change in general. I appreciate you as always. Man, Thank
you for hopping on here. Enjoy that trek down to
Houston for that finale that's.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Still wait out, Stephen Waite, believe me.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Steven Older, v SP and ESPN dot com some the
anymore automatic Croup pipline
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