March 26, 2025 • 32 mins
Exploring Life Beyond Earth and the Role of Inclusive Governance with Bill Diamond
Secure World Foundation is pleased to announce the release of the fourth episode of ESG in Space, a podcast series in collaboration with Exponential Academy, hosted by Nishan Degnarain and Miki Sode. This episode features a wide-ranging conversation with Bill Diamond, President and CEO of the SETI Institute.
In this episode, Bill shares his perspective on the evolving space economy, the importance of scientific research in astrobiology, and how space-based platforms support our understanding of life on Earth. He also addresses the need for inclusive governance frameworks in space exploration—highlighting lessons from Earth-based examples like Antarctica and emphasizing the importance of engaging underrepresented voices in the future of space policy.
Listen to ESG in Space Episode 4 here or on our YouTube Channel for an exploration of how science, sustainability, and equity intersect in our journey beyond Earth.
Recorded December 18, 2024
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Nishan DegnarainHello everyone, and welcome to another episode of ESG and Sustainability in Space. I'm thrilled to be here with you. My name is Nishan Degnarain, and I'm thrilled to be joined by.
Miki SodeI'm Miki today. Hi.
Nishan DegnarainExcellent. And, thank you. Miki, I know it's a long distance, podcast today. Miki. Coming in from from Japan. And we're delighted today to be joined by Bill Diamond. Bill is the president and CEO of the CFA Institute based, here in Silicon Valley. Bill, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
(00:50):
Bill DiamondThank you. Nishan Nice to be here. Hello, Miki.
Nishan DegnarainThanks, Bill. Maybe we could start with you first by just explaining a little bit, about, what is the CFA Institute? What excites you the most about the space industry and where it's going now with the role of, of the private sector?
Bill DiamondSure. Well, the City Institute is a nonprofit, scientific research, education and outreach institution, as you said, based here in Silicon Valley and Mountain View. In fact, this is our 40th anniversary as a as a, nonprofit research organization. So it's been a been a fun year. The City Institute, the name is an acronym which stands for the search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, which is both an endeavor that is practiced by scientists around the world and first got its start in 1960.
(01:37):
Bill DiamondBut it's also the name of the institute. The Institute's mission is to understand and explore the nature and prevalence of life and intelligence in the universe. So we're basically interested in whether we are alone in the universe on this little blue planet, or whether there's life beyond Earth. From its most basic, forms of microbial life to potentially complex, intelligent and technological life.
(02:02):
Bill DiamondSo that's the nature of the work we do, which encompasses pretty much all the natural sciences. And, in terms of the second part of your question, our interest or excitement, if you will, about the emerging, commercial space, sector and industry is, I would say, if not to the democratization of access to space, at least the lowering of cost of access to space, because with commercial launch capability, offered by companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin and Rocket Labs and others, you know, we we now have the the ability to put payloads in space at a much lower cost.
(02:42):
Bill DiamondYou know, our payloads of interest are scientific instruments. They're not things which generate revenue. But they're important, for scientific purposes. And, therefore the, you know, the cost of getting these payloads into low-Earth orbit or elsewhere, is a huge, if not the largest, factor of consideration. So the fact that we have access to space, thanks to this commercialization and, and, you know, the conversion of, of space from purely the domain of, of, of governments, to one of, of commercial interests is, is a positive sign, at least in terms of cost elements.
(03:23):
Bill DiamondIt has other complications, but, but it's it's exciting from the point of view of, you know, affordability for doing science.
Miki SodeYeah. So much to unpack there. I and, you know, I'm glad that you shared what said the institute is and what the this effort, the mission is about. But, and because it, you know, it's what strikes me is that you have or you're researchers in your community had such, a very big, wide, systems perspective, right?
(04:00):
Miki SodeThat covers, education and exploration. But how does space technology and and access to, the, you know, wonders of the, the space off-earth, but also, you know, long term as well, like, your missions are inherently very long term. So but I, so that's why I think it's very, it was sort of a, an intentional way for us to bring you onto our podcast to share that, perspective.
(04:31):
Miki SodeBut if I may, double click on what you said about what excites you about the this burgeoning space economy from your point of view? I know that, in February this year, you, went to the United Nations to address, on the roles of science and technology, in addressing un, Sustainable Development goals, in particular, focusing on education and equity and sustainability, and climate as well.
(05:10):
Miki SodeSo, so that, you know, a lot to talk about there, like what I wanted to kind of get the, the quick, skinny version of your address. But also, on the other hand, I know that you're, also involved in a, as a, board member for a privateer, which provides the geospatial intelligence across, all domains, like from sea to space.
(05:41):
Miki SodeRight. So that means it's more action, actionable, tangible actions. And so I just kind of setting that context and, again, if you may kind of, elaborate on what excites you about, this burgeoning space economy in terms of, you know, benefit to our lives as well as, you know, actions to take and where we are going from here.
(06:08):
Bill DiamondSure. Well, I would say that, you know, one of the great benefits of, of space as a platform, on which to conduct science and, and, and do observations is, you know, most of our work at the City Institute involves pointing instruments outward, away from Earth, towards targets of interest and, using optical telescopes or radio telescopes.
(06:33):
Bill DiamondBut there's also a lot to be learned by pointing instruments down at Earth. And, you know, Earth is the only laboratory we have in terms of a planetary environment in which we know life and indeed intelligent and technological life exists. And so in many respects, Ceti as an endeavor or this search for extraterrestrial intelligence. And this question about are we alone in the universe?
(06:59):
Bill DiamondYou know, starts here. And it is as much an introspection and learning about, you know, what it means to be human, what our places in the cosmos, how we even came to exist in the first place, as it is about, you know, looking for other examples of life and biology elsewhere. So, you, you know, we, we study the Earth as, you know, the only existence there where, where life exists.
(07:24):
Bill DiamondAnd we can learn, therefore, on how to look for life and what its signatures, of presence are in, in other worlds. And space, of course, is a great platform on which to observe Earth. In in the context of understanding things at planetary scale, its climate, its environment, its landmasses, its, its weather, and and the evidence that we can see from space of, of biology and life and technology, you know, what are the biosignatures of this planet?
(07:54):
Bill DiamondWhat are the technosignatures of this planet and what they look like from space? But equally, you know, since one of the questions we have is, you know, if life exists elsewhere, then it probably starts with a habitable environment. And we now know, thanks to the Kepler mission and other missions, that there are potentially billions of potentially habitable planets in our own galaxy where life may have had the opportunity or may yet have the opportunity to get started.
(08:27):
Bill DiamondBut what is a habitable environment? And. Well, and you know, what defines that? What defines it for our kind of biology and, and, you know, what about the sustainability or the permanence, if you will, of a habitable environment and what happens when the presence of a particular species in a particular planetary environment changes? What the habitability of that environment.
(08:52):
Bill DiamondAnd, of course, space becomes a really interesting place on which to observe that phenomenon. You know, retreating glaciers, melting the polar ice caps, you know, warming sea temperatures more, you know, dramatic and extreme weather, all of these things which we can observe from space and gain a much broader perspective on what's happening, how these dynamics work, and what impact they might have on the life below.
(09:18):
Bill DiamondSo, so, again, in the context of a commercial space or, you know, improving access to space, the idea that, you know, more instruments and observational platforms can be, deployed, which give us a better understanding of what's going on on the planet below, in terms of life and environment and climate. You know, the better.
(09:41):
Bill DiamondAt the same time, you know, we we already have concerns about the overcrowding of space, with, with instrumentation and satellites and so forth, and, you know, space debris, orbital debris, and just managing the complexity of thousands of, objects, you know, orbiting around our, our, our, our planet in low-Earth orbit is, is, not a trivial matter.
(10:06):
Bill DiamondSo like anything, you know, the these, these, dynamics come with some really interesting and exciting positive attributes and characteristics. And then they come with, you know, some cost or some expense or some some risk that has to be taken into account. So, unfortunately, I've learned the older I get, the more I learned that, you know, there's nothing for free.
(10:28):
Bill DiamondThere's nothing that doesn't in terms of technology or anything else that doesn't come with consequences. The main thing is to be aware of that from the outset, to be smart enough to know what are the consequences of doing A, B, C, or D?
Nishan DegnarainExcellent. Yeah, that's really interesting. When you when you talk about the these trade offs, right. The consequences and trade offs that we, that we have to face. It's not a infinite energy system. I mean, you sit in a really unique position at a really unique time in history because I, I can see there's almost three dimensions to what you've talked about.
(11:03):
Nishan DegnarainYou've described the importance of space technologies. Let's face it, looking down at Earth, how biology or how life on Earth is changing and evolving with changing glaciers, climate change, the loss of biodiversity and habitat destruction and changes. As humans of you know, I there's questions about, do we have the right institutions to do that? If we look at what's the second is at some stage there's a role of astrobiology.
(11:27):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, we all need to grow or take DNA or life into space to grow plants on the moon, on space stations or on Mars. But that's with it. Yeah, that's that's human earthbound life that we're taking. And we need a governance framework. And then that third aspect, as you said, of looking deep into space and habitable planets and what life could look like, within each of these three horizons, traditionally a lot of these have been the, the purview or the domain of large government organizations or publicly funded, taxpayer funded scientific organizations.
(12:02):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, whether it's from royal families or philanthropy, the typically non nonprofit. But now with 90% of the future, activity in space is likely to come from the private from the commercial sector. How do you see how do you see us kind of thinking about the discovery or governance of life in space with that in mind, because it's such an early sector, we want to allow innovation.
(12:28):
Nishan DegnarainWe want to yeah, there's unknown unknowns. You put about like trade of consequences. We don't want to overregulate too early, but at some time, at some stage we'll need to have some sort of governance mechanisms to control, you know, extinction of that species. Yeah. Human unintended consequences is the ability to explore without impeding others views of the of the cosmos.
(12:51):
Nishan DegnarainHow do you think about because of the governance of Brexit with that context in mind?
Bill DiamondWell, you know, it's a really interesting question. It's a big question. I would say, you know, I mean, regulatory frameworks and regulation, you know, somewhat has a negative connotation. Right? And in many respects, at the same time, I think one could argue maybe the right word isn't necessarily regulation, but at least coordination. And I don't think it's, it's at all too early to start thinking about coordinating efforts, you know, across different government organizations or entities and interests.
(13:30):
Bill DiamondBecause you know, what we what we really can't afford to have, I don't think is, is the Wild West in space. You know, this would be really problematic. And and so I think it is important for there to be, you know, regular regulatory frameworks about, you know, the access to space, you know, orbits, assignments and, and so forth, regulations about deorbit and, you know, flight, time of, of, of spacecraft.
(13:56):
Bill DiamondAnd then there are bigger questions like if we, if we as soon as we bring humans to Mars, we will have brought life to Mars. That is not Martian. Right. And, and it will then be increasingly difficult for us should we discover, you know, some biosignatures on Mars or evidence of life on Mars. The question will be, have we just discovered ourself and the result of our presence here, or have we discovered something with its own, you know, biogenesis that that is independent of our presence?
(14:28):
Bill DiamondSo, you know, at some level, for those of us who are looking at this question of life beyond Earth, we'd like Mars to be left to a pristine environment that we can, evaluate from a scientific point of view of, of its potential to having past or present life before we disturb it. Now, you know, it is inevitable that humans will be on Mars.
(14:53):
Bill DiamondAnd it may also be helpful in terms of the quest to look for life on Mars, to have humans there who can, you know, do things that it's difficult for a rovers and, and robots and things to do in this in the same way. But but we, you know, we have to think about these things as we take biology, it's plant or animal or human to other worlds.
(15:14):
Bill DiamondWhat are the implications of that? And, and so forth. And again, you know, the discovery of life on Mars, even if it's something very basic would have profound implications for what it means about the likelihood for life elsewhere and particularly intelligent life elsewhere. So it's an interesting question, but but, I think, you know, it is a fair question to say, well, what organization, you know, has the, the, the purview, to do this kind of work.
(15:48):
Bill DiamondAnd I would have to say as much as the UN, you know, falls short of what we might like to think about for global coordination of things. No, you know, not least handling climate change. It's it's the best and only organization we have for for global action, it seems. I mean, there are trade associations. There are, you know, regulatory bodies that are international.
(16:14):
Bill DiamondBut they're not multinational necessarily. Right. And, and, you know, and at least in theory represents every country on the planet. And, to the extent that we want every, every country on the planet to have a say or to, you know, have access or have the opportunity to benefit from from this future, and hopefully not, to be victims of this future, that, you know, it's a good place to start, but I don't have the answer to, you know, how that should be organized within the UN, you know, and and how it should be fun.
(16:48):
Bill DiamondAnd until they put me in charge, I, I don't know that I could probably right off the bat, but I think it's a great place to start because I, you know, this is a this just like climate change, and the environmental, I would call it crisis that we have on our planet. This is a very scale phenomena.
Bill DiamondIt's not happening over there or over here, or only in this country or only in that country. It's happening over the whole planet. And until, you know, the governments of this planet and the and the countries of this planet come together as one and realize we are one human species on one tiny little island in a very insignificant solar system.
(17:22):
Bill DiamondYou know, our our future is, is very much in doubt in terms of long term sustainability. So I'm, I'm hopeful that humanity through the UN or some other organization and mechanism, can unite on these, these issues and not least, you know, access to and control of, in some ways, or regulation of, of space and how we use it and how we, take advantage of it.
(17:51):
Miki SodeSo, you know, one question is, of course, you know, who should lead the coordination, but, the flip side of it that I would like to ask you is whose voice we haven't heard enough of that should be included in, when we, call designing, you know, a future that involves space as a fabric of of our economy.
(18:24):
Bill DiamondWell, I mean, you know, to the extent that, again, every endeavor that humans undertake come with consequences, you know, and, and ideally, when we're undertaking an endeavor that we think, you know, has more benefits than it does, detrimental, impacts, you know, that that's a good thing. But nevertheless, no matter what we do, even if it's ostensibly, you know, going to benefit humankind, it's going to come with with some costs.
(18:51):
Bill DiamondAnd we have seen, for example, that the industrialization of our planet and its ultimate convergence to, you know, in many places, a going from sort of we've gone from agrarian to industrial now to technological, but we haven't done that across the planet. And the, the greatest beneficiaries of our technological, ascent, if you will have been, you know, the the, well-funded, wealthy, you know, Western, countries, and.
(19:28):
Bill DiamondWell, of course, and Asia now as well, and China, etc.. So, I mean, not very many countries have really benefit from, you know, our ascent to a technological species and many countries have become victims of, of our ascent to a technological species by bearing the brunt of things like climate change that are, let's face it, you know, a a cost, if you will, or a real consequence of, our becoming both industrial and now technological.
(20:03):
Bill DiamondAnd so I think we need to think about access to space in that same context. In, in that, you know, the, the beneficiaries, by and large, at least for the near term, are still going to be, you know, the wealthy, industrialized, technologically technological countries. And what are the consequences, potentially the unintended consequences going to be for the rest of the world?
(20:30):
Bill DiamondAnd what negative consequences for example, might there be and and might there there also be a disproportionate, if you will, distribution of those unintended or bad consequences to, you know, countries that have, you know, don't have the access and and so and aren't necessarily going to have, the benefits of, of this new, new and emerging, sector.
(20:55):
Bill DiamondSo to your question, who should we invite? I mean, I think we should invite, people around the table who represent those those countries and those peoples and those, parts of the world, that, you know, haven't really been traditionally part of this technological revolution, if you will, to to have a voice and have a have a seat at the table and have a say and, and, that we think about, you know, what are the implications and consequences for these people or these countries or these geographical regions of the world, you know, as we continue to, expand in this, you know, space commercialization.
(21:41):
Nishan DegnarainThat's fascinating. And I really interested because, in many parts of the world, a lot of what happens in space is deeply entrenched. There's not the capabilities that deeply enshrined individual cultures. Sure. The presence of the moon, for example, so profound in Islam and Hinduism and indigenous culture that the space of the stars, there have significant cultural implications that you just a concept of said life here for the cultures you'd worship, you know the moon and then all of a sudden you see life of humans over there that's going to create very profound value shifts.
(22:14):
Nishan DegnarainAnd we've already had have had some. So how how do we get how do we start to build a consensus, like do we build a consistent how can we even start to build a consensus around the even the use of space? And, you know, when we look at Earth, we see two diametrically opposed areas where you look at the poles, you've got the Arctic, which is built around, exploitation, whether it's fisheries or mineral resources.
(22:37):
Nishan DegnarainAnd a few nations control the access and permissions to extract. But where's Antarctica? To your point about the need to preserve this pristine environment, there has been a consensus that we will not extract from Antarctica. And so far, you know, despite all the geopolitical tensions and the Cold War, we've managed to maintain that one of our continents has remained largely pristine from human influence extraction.
(23:02):
Bill DiamondThat's a great it's a great, case study. And it's a great example for us to maybe take to other places like Moon and Mars for sure.
Nishan DegnarainYeah. I think, you know, at the same time, you know, so you have, Antarctica governed by Kamala is largely a government organization with, NGO, civil society, some industrial representation. The governance of the internet is another kind of good example of the icad and how we create debate, debate where this and you know your point earlier that maybe it's not regulation, but coordination, like more like an organic body that will need to evolve over time, rather been frozen in time.
(23:37):
Nishan DegnarainBut how how do you see us reaching some sort of consensus around the value system that will govern, how we would operate or industrialize, space?
Bill DiamondYeah. Well, so lots of different parts of that question. I would say one thing about Antarctica and that that is perhaps part of why the this, you know, coordination and protection, if you will, of this pristine environment has been able to take place, has probably been this perception in the private sector. Well, there's not a lot of money to be made down there, right?
(24:12):
Bill DiamondYeah. So I mean, that could change as, as, you know, there's more melting and we actually get access to the, to the continent that's underneath the ice. But but you know, it, it hasn't, you know, if there were gold or oil or some other thing, that was desperately needed, I think that, you know.
Nishan DegnarainThe.
Bill DiamondQuestion would be thrown with the wind and, you know, these, these coordinated efforts might be, you know, cast aside for the interest of, of either profits or, or need, economic or otherwise. But, but I do think nevertheless, it's, it's been a very positive example of what we can do when we collectively decide to protect a given environment or to, you know, at least coordinate, if not regulate access and use of that environment.
(25:01):
Bill DiamondIn terms of building consensus, I think, you know, a great way to start is to build consensus.
Nishan DegnarainWhich means.
Bill DiamondHaving voices around the table with different perspectives and different interests and giving everybody an on opportunity to weigh in that if you don't do that, if you only have the key beneficiaries or the key players who are able to actually, take advantage of this, of this new economy or this new, new, paradigm space that, that you're not building consensus, you know, you know, the people around the table may all agree, but, you know, you're missing half the world or, you know, things along those lines.
(25:37):
Bill DiamondI think a good example is, is the bad example that we, you know, we seen in Hawaii, you know, where we built observatories and, and did so with, you know, sort of ignoring, the, the perspectives and, and views and, you know, religious and cultural importance of these prestigious, I mean, that, these, that these precious areas, pristine areas where we wanted to build these observatories to the local people, to the indigenous people.
(26:09):
Bill DiamondAnd, I think the same exact observatories doing the same exact science could have been built with everybody being happy about it. If you'd had all the voices around the table beginning, that if you were respecting all the different, different viewpoints, and maybe integrating their viewpoints and perspectives into how you design and how you build and what you do there.
(26:32):
Bill DiamondI think it was a completely avoidable debacle. If we had tried to build consensus, if we had said, you know, hey, we would love to work with you and with your people and with your cultural and understand it and integrate it into this thing that we want to do that, by the way, we think gives all of humanity, you know, this, this unbelievable access and knowledge, that, that presumably we all can cherish and benefit from.
(27:02):
Bill DiamondSo I think there's, there's examples of where we've really screwed that up and we and, and we could have done it differently. And that's what we should do too, here. So a great way to build consensus is to actually build consensus, which again, I just think means you've got all the everybody's around the table and you don't have, you know, some beneficial theory subset around the table that's ignoring, you know, a sizable fraction of the planet.
(27:29):
Miki SodeYeah. And that brings us back to what we talked about earlier, about the education and outreach being the core of what city does. Right? Because that if we awareness and consensus comes from being aware of such tradition or sentiment to that holy land of that, you know, of the land on Hawaii where this observatory was built, or how each culture have different relationship to the moon, you know, all of that, or how important, the, the night sky is to astronomer and all of that.
(28:13):
Miki SodeRight. So I, I, I feel, I resonate a lot about what you do at city and your mission because I think that, there are a lot for us to learn. From what you do and people in your community in terms of, like, building a, you know, more, a more accessible, I guess a better access to space so that we could all benefit from space enabled data or knowledge of technology to, for the betterment of our lives here on Earth and for the future.
(29:00):
Miki SodeSo. Yeah. So maybe I'll. Sorry.
Bill DiamondThat question.
Miki SodeOh, no, no, no. Go ahead.
Bill DiamondI was just going to say, I think that, you know, this this, idea of of engagement, I mean, the outreach, the the point of the outreach and the education programs is to reach as many people as possible. In other words, to make everybody part of this endeavor. You know, our endeavor, our search for, you know, life beyond Earth is for all of humankind.
(29:30):
Bill DiamondIt's not for the City Institute. It's not for Americans only. It's not for, you know, civilian industrialized or technological nations. It's for the whole planet. It's it's something that we do that we think is something meaningful and important to every person on earth. And, and therefore, you know, sharing what we do with everybody we think is, is a responsibility.
(29:51):
Bill DiamondWe have as much as, you know, we we feel it's an important thing to do, but we think it's a responsible thing to do. And, you know, making people aware of, of this endeavor and what it entails and how we do it and what we've learned and also, how it reflects back on a better understanding of, of ourselves as a species.
Bill DiamondI think it's a is important and useful. I mean, imagine, for example, if before humans put that first footprint on the moon, that, you know, the entity, the United States and NASA that was able to pull that off had gone and had conversation with people from from Islam or from indigenous tribes or, you know, people from different countries and, and said, you know, we'd like to make you part of this, that when that footprint goes on the moon, you are part of that footprint, you know, and and that again, this is I mean, as Neil Armstrong said, you know, one, one small step for man, one giant step for mankind.
(30:54):
Bill DiamondYou know, that this is really for for everybody. But unless you engage and unless you build consensus, some people are going to feel left out and left behind. And I think this is too big, you know, an undertaking and too big an opportunity and so much tied to our future as a, as a species, that, that everybody deserves to be heard and feel like they're involved and can benefit and in some way.
(31:22):
Nishan DegnarainBill, I think on that note, we can speak, all, all day, I think, on some of these ideas, but on that, that that's a really profound and insightful, inspiration legacy that this is one giant leap for humankind. You know, that next frontier that we're about to to embark on. And this is a chance for us to put the best foot forward.
Nishan DegnarainI mean, some of the points that you mentioned over the course of this podcast, in terms of the access to space for all communities, the need for coordination, not let's say regulation, implies a whole different set of levers of influence. What institutions could look like. Yeah, what we mean institutional coordination mechanism and and being inclusive because sometimes you have to go that far and broad rather than going fast.
(32:02):
Nishan DegnarainBut that long term that will actually create these, these profound leaps, that civilizational, we will need if we're looking in those terms. I think they're really profound and important perspectives that we can bring in. Bill, we've run out of time. So from Miki and I thank you so much. We've really enjoyed today's discussion.
Bill DiamondWell, it's been a lot of fun. It's, it's a great topic, and I'm glad you guys are diving into it. And, we wish you many more great conversations.
(32:28):
Miki SodeThank you. Thank you.
Nishan DegnarainHello everyone, and welcome to another episode of ESG and Sustainability in Space. I'm thrilled to be here with you. My name is Nishan Degnarain, and I'm thrilled to be joined by.
Miki SodeI'm Miki today. Hi.
Nishan DegnarainExcellent. And, thank you. Miki, I know it's a long distance, podcast today. Miki. Coming in from from Japan. And we're delighted today to be joined by Bill Diamond. Bill is the president and CEO of the CFA Institute based, here in Silicon Valley. Bill, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
(00:50):
Bill DiamondThank you. Nishan Nice to be here. Hello, Miki.
Nishan DegnarainThanks, Bill. Maybe we could start with you first by just explaining a little bit, about, what is the CFA Institute? What excites you the most about the space industry and where it's going now with the role of, of the private sector?
Bill DiamondSure. Well, the City Institute is a nonprofit, scientific research, education and outreach institution, as you said, based here in Silicon Valley and Mountain View. In fact, this is our 40th anniversary as a as a, nonprofit research organization. So it's been a been a fun year. The City Institute, the name is an acronym which stands for the search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, which is both an endeavor that is practiced by scientists around the world and first got its start in 1960.
(01:37):
Bill DiamondBut it's also the name of the institute. The Institute's mission is to understand and explore the nature and prevalence of life and intelligence in the universe. So we're basically interested in whether we are alone in the universe on this little blue planet, or whether there's life beyond Earth. From its most basic, forms of microbial life to potentially complex, intelligent and technological life.
(02:02):
Bill DiamondSo that's the nature of the work we do, which encompasses pretty much all the natural sciences. And, in terms of the second part of your question, our interest or excitement, if you will, about the emerging, commercial space, sector and industry is, I would say, if not to the democratization of access to space, at least the lowering of cost of access to space, because with commercial launch capability, offered by companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin and Rocket Labs and others, you know, we we now have the the ability to put payloads in space at a much lower cost.
(02:42):
Bill DiamondYou know, our payloads of interest are scientific instruments. They're not things which generate revenue. But they're important, for scientific purposes. And, therefore the, you know, the cost of getting these payloads into low-Earth orbit or elsewhere, is a huge, if not the largest, factor of consideration. So the fact that we have access to space, thanks to this commercialization and, and, you know, the conversion of, of space from purely the domain of, of, of governments, to one of, of commercial interests is, is a positive sign, at least in terms of cost elements.
(03:23):
Bill DiamondIt has other complications, but, but it's it's exciting from the point of view of, you know, affordability for doing science.
Miki SodeYeah. So much to unpack there. I and, you know, I'm glad that you shared what said the institute is and what the this effort, the mission is about. But, and because it, you know, it's what strikes me is that you have or you're researchers in your community had such, a very big, wide, systems perspective, right?
(04:00):
Miki SodeThat covers, education and exploration. But how does space technology and and access to, the, you know, wonders of the, the space off-earth, but also, you know, long term as well, like, your missions are inherently very long term. So but I, so that's why I think it's very, it was sort of a, an intentional way for us to bring you onto our podcast to share that, perspective.
(04:31):
Miki SodeBut if I may, double click on what you said about what excites you about the this burgeoning space economy from your point of view? I know that, in February this year, you, went to the United Nations to address, on the roles of science and technology, in addressing un, Sustainable Development goals, in particular, focusing on education and equity and sustainability, and climate as well.
(05:10):
Miki SodeSo, so that, you know, a lot to talk about there, like what I wanted to kind of get the, the quick, skinny version of your address. But also, on the other hand, I know that you're, also involved in a, as a, board member for a privateer, which provides the geospatial intelligence across, all domains, like from sea to space.
(05:41):
Miki SodeRight. So that means it's more action, actionable, tangible actions. And so I just kind of setting that context and, again, if you may kind of, elaborate on what excites you about, this burgeoning space economy in terms of, you know, benefit to our lives as well as, you know, actions to take and where we are going from here.
(06:08):
Bill DiamondSure. Well, I would say that, you know, one of the great benefits of, of space as a platform, on which to conduct science and, and, and do observations is, you know, most of our work at the City Institute involves pointing instruments outward, away from Earth, towards targets of interest and, using optical telescopes or radio telescopes.
(06:33):
Bill DiamondBut there's also a lot to be learned by pointing instruments down at Earth. And, you know, Earth is the only laboratory we have in terms of a planetary environment in which we know life and indeed intelligent and technological life exists. And so in many respects, Ceti as an endeavor or this search for extraterrestrial intelligence. And this question about are we alone in the universe?
(06:59):
Bill DiamondYou know, starts here. And it is as much an introspection and learning about, you know, what it means to be human, what our places in the cosmos, how we even came to exist in the first place, as it is about, you know, looking for other examples of life and biology elsewhere. So, you, you know, we, we study the Earth as, you know, the only existence there where, where life exists.
(07:24):
Bill DiamondAnd we can learn, therefore, on how to look for life and what its signatures, of presence are in, in other worlds. And space, of course, is a great platform on which to observe Earth. In in the context of understanding things at planetary scale, its climate, its environment, its landmasses, its, its weather, and and the evidence that we can see from space of, of biology and life and technology, you know, what are the biosignatures of this planet?
(07:54):
Bill DiamondWhat are the technosignatures of this planet and what they look like from space? But equally, you know, since one of the questions we have is, you know, if life exists elsewhere, then it probably starts with a habitable environment. And we now know, thanks to the Kepler mission and other missions, that there are potentially billions of potentially habitable planets in our own galaxy where life may have had the opportunity or may yet have the opportunity to get started.
(08:27):
Bill DiamondBut what is a habitable environment? And. Well, and you know, what defines that? What defines it for our kind of biology and, and, you know, what about the sustainability or the permanence, if you will, of a habitable environment and what happens when the presence of a particular species in a particular planetary environment changes? What the habitability of that environment.
(08:52):
Bill DiamondAnd, of course, space becomes a really interesting place on which to observe that phenomenon. You know, retreating glaciers, melting the polar ice caps, you know, warming sea temperatures more, you know, dramatic and extreme weather, all of these things which we can observe from space and gain a much broader perspective on what's happening, how these dynamics work, and what impact they might have on the life below.
(09:18):
Bill DiamondSo, so, again, in the context of a commercial space or, you know, improving access to space, the idea that, you know, more instruments and observational platforms can be, deployed, which give us a better understanding of what's going on on the planet below, in terms of life and environment and climate. You know, the better.
(09:41):
Bill DiamondAt the same time, you know, we we already have concerns about the overcrowding of space, with, with instrumentation and satellites and so forth, and, you know, space debris, orbital debris, and just managing the complexity of thousands of, objects, you know, orbiting around our, our, our, our planet in low-Earth orbit is, is, not a trivial matter.
(10:06):
Bill DiamondSo like anything, you know, the these, these, dynamics come with some really interesting and exciting positive attributes and characteristics. And then they come with, you know, some cost or some expense or some some risk that has to be taken into account. So, unfortunately, I've learned the older I get, the more I learned that, you know, there's nothing for free.
(10:28):
Bill DiamondThere's nothing that doesn't in terms of technology or anything else that doesn't come with consequences. The main thing is to be aware of that from the outset, to be smart enough to know what are the consequences of doing A, B, C, or D?
Nishan DegnarainExcellent. Yeah, that's really interesting. When you when you talk about the these trade offs, right. The consequences and trade offs that we, that we have to face. It's not a infinite energy system. I mean, you sit in a really unique position at a really unique time in history because I, I can see there's almost three dimensions to what you've talked about.
(11:03):
Nishan DegnarainYou've described the importance of space technologies. Let's face it, looking down at Earth, how biology or how life on Earth is changing and evolving with changing glaciers, climate change, the loss of biodiversity and habitat destruction and changes. As humans of you know, I there's questions about, do we have the right institutions to do that? If we look at what's the second is at some stage there's a role of astrobiology.
(11:27):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, we all need to grow or take DNA or life into space to grow plants on the moon, on space stations or on Mars. But that's with it. Yeah, that's that's human earthbound life that we're taking. And we need a governance framework. And then that third aspect, as you said, of looking deep into space and habitable planets and what life could look like, within each of these three horizons, traditionally a lot of these have been the, the purview or the domain of large government organizations or publicly funded, taxpayer funded scientific organizations.
(12:02):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, whether it's from royal families or philanthropy, the typically non nonprofit. But now with 90% of the future, activity in space is likely to come from the private from the commercial sector. How do you see how do you see us kind of thinking about the discovery or governance of life in space with that in mind, because it's such an early sector, we want to allow innovation.
(12:28):
Nishan DegnarainWe want to yeah, there's unknown unknowns. You put about like trade of consequences. We don't want to overregulate too early, but at some time, at some stage we'll need to have some sort of governance mechanisms to control, you know, extinction of that species. Yeah. Human unintended consequences is the ability to explore without impeding others views of the of the cosmos.
(12:51):
Nishan DegnarainHow do you think about because of the governance of Brexit with that context in mind?
Bill DiamondWell, you know, it's a really interesting question. It's a big question. I would say, you know, I mean, regulatory frameworks and regulation, you know, somewhat has a negative connotation. Right? And in many respects, at the same time, I think one could argue maybe the right word isn't necessarily regulation, but at least coordination. And I don't think it's, it's at all too early to start thinking about coordinating efforts, you know, across different government organizations or entities and interests.
(13:30):
Bill DiamondBecause you know, what we what we really can't afford to have, I don't think is, is the Wild West in space. You know, this would be really problematic. And and so I think it is important for there to be, you know, regular regulatory frameworks about, you know, the access to space, you know, orbits, assignments and, and so forth, regulations about deorbit and, you know, flight, time of, of, of spacecraft.
(13:56):
Bill DiamondAnd then there are bigger questions like if we, if we as soon as we bring humans to Mars, we will have brought life to Mars. That is not Martian. Right. And, and it will then be increasingly difficult for us should we discover, you know, some biosignatures on Mars or evidence of life on Mars. The question will be, have we just discovered ourself and the result of our presence here, or have we discovered something with its own, you know, biogenesis that that is independent of our presence?
(14:28):
Bill DiamondSo, you know, at some level, for those of us who are looking at this question of life beyond Earth, we'd like Mars to be left to a pristine environment that we can, evaluate from a scientific point of view of, of its potential to having past or present life before we disturb it. Now, you know, it is inevitable that humans will be on Mars.
(14:53):
Bill DiamondAnd it may also be helpful in terms of the quest to look for life on Mars, to have humans there who can, you know, do things that it's difficult for a rovers and, and robots and things to do in this in the same way. But but we, you know, we have to think about these things as we take biology, it's plant or animal or human to other worlds.
(15:14):
Bill DiamondWhat are the implications of that? And, and so forth. And again, you know, the discovery of life on Mars, even if it's something very basic would have profound implications for what it means about the likelihood for life elsewhere and particularly intelligent life elsewhere. So it's an interesting question, but but, I think, you know, it is a fair question to say, well, what organization, you know, has the, the, the purview, to do this kind of work.
(15:48):
Bill DiamondAnd I would have to say as much as the UN, you know, falls short of what we might like to think about for global coordination of things. No, you know, not least handling climate change. It's it's the best and only organization we have for for global action, it seems. I mean, there are trade associations. There are, you know, regulatory bodies that are international.
(16:14):
Bill DiamondBut they're not multinational necessarily. Right. And, and, you know, and at least in theory represents every country on the planet. And, to the extent that we want every, every country on the planet to have a say or to, you know, have access or have the opportunity to benefit from from this future, and hopefully not, to be victims of this future, that, you know, it's a good place to start, but I don't have the answer to, you know, how that should be organized within the UN, you know, and and how it should be fun.
(16:48):
Bill DiamondAnd until they put me in charge, I, I don't know that I could probably right off the bat, but I think it's a great place to start because I, you know, this is a this just like climate change, and the environmental, I would call it crisis that we have on our planet. This is a very scale phenomena.
Bill DiamondIt's not happening over there or over here, or only in this country or only in that country. It's happening over the whole planet. And until, you know, the governments of this planet and the and the countries of this planet come together as one and realize we are one human species on one tiny little island in a very insignificant solar system.
(17:22):
Bill DiamondYou know, our our future is, is very much in doubt in terms of long term sustainability. So I'm, I'm hopeful that humanity through the UN or some other organization and mechanism, can unite on these, these issues and not least, you know, access to and control of, in some ways, or regulation of, of space and how we use it and how we, take advantage of it.
(17:51):
Miki SodeSo, you know, one question is, of course, you know, who should lead the coordination, but, the flip side of it that I would like to ask you is whose voice we haven't heard enough of that should be included in, when we, call designing, you know, a future that involves space as a fabric of of our economy.
(18:24):
Bill DiamondWell, I mean, you know, to the extent that, again, every endeavor that humans undertake come with consequences, you know, and, and ideally, when we're undertaking an endeavor that we think, you know, has more benefits than it does, detrimental, impacts, you know, that that's a good thing. But nevertheless, no matter what we do, even if it's ostensibly, you know, going to benefit humankind, it's going to come with with some costs.
(18:51):
Bill DiamondAnd we have seen, for example, that the industrialization of our planet and its ultimate convergence to, you know, in many places, a going from sort of we've gone from agrarian to industrial now to technological, but we haven't done that across the planet. And the, the greatest beneficiaries of our technological, ascent, if you will have been, you know, the the, well-funded, wealthy, you know, Western, countries, and.
(19:28):
Bill DiamondWell, of course, and Asia now as well, and China, etc.. So, I mean, not very many countries have really benefit from, you know, our ascent to a technological species and many countries have become victims of, of our ascent to a technological species by bearing the brunt of things like climate change that are, let's face it, you know, a a cost, if you will, or a real consequence of, our becoming both industrial and now technological.
(20:03):
Bill DiamondAnd so I think we need to think about access to space in that same context. In, in that, you know, the, the beneficiaries, by and large, at least for the near term, are still going to be, you know, the wealthy, industrialized, technologically technological countries. And what are the consequences, potentially the unintended consequences going to be for the rest of the world?
(20:30):
Bill DiamondAnd what negative consequences for example, might there be and and might there there also be a disproportionate, if you will, distribution of those unintended or bad consequences to, you know, countries that have, you know, don't have the access and and so and aren't necessarily going to have, the benefits of, of this new, new and emerging, sector.
(20:55):
Bill DiamondSo to your question, who should we invite? I mean, I think we should invite, people around the table who represent those those countries and those peoples and those, parts of the world, that, you know, haven't really been traditionally part of this technological revolution, if you will, to to have a voice and have a have a seat at the table and have a say and, and, that we think about, you know, what are the implications and consequences for these people or these countries or these geographical regions of the world, you know, as we continue to, expand in this, you know, space commercialization.
(21:41):
Nishan DegnarainThat's fascinating. And I really interested because, in many parts of the world, a lot of what happens in space is deeply entrenched. There's not the capabilities that deeply enshrined individual cultures. Sure. The presence of the moon, for example, so profound in Islam and Hinduism and indigenous culture that the space of the stars, there have significant cultural implications that you just a concept of said life here for the cultures you'd worship, you know the moon and then all of a sudden you see life of humans over there that's going to create very profound value shifts.
(22:14):
Nishan DegnarainAnd we've already had have had some. So how how do we get how do we start to build a consensus, like do we build a consistent how can we even start to build a consensus around the even the use of space? And, you know, when we look at Earth, we see two diametrically opposed areas where you look at the poles, you've got the Arctic, which is built around, exploitation, whether it's fisheries or mineral resources.
(22:37):
Nishan DegnarainAnd a few nations control the access and permissions to extract. But where's Antarctica? To your point about the need to preserve this pristine environment, there has been a consensus that we will not extract from Antarctica. And so far, you know, despite all the geopolitical tensions and the Cold War, we've managed to maintain that one of our continents has remained largely pristine from human influence extraction.
(23:02):
Bill DiamondThat's a great it's a great, case study. And it's a great example for us to maybe take to other places like Moon and Mars for sure.
Nishan DegnarainYeah. I think, you know, at the same time, you know, so you have, Antarctica governed by Kamala is largely a government organization with, NGO, civil society, some industrial representation. The governance of the internet is another kind of good example of the icad and how we create debate, debate where this and you know your point earlier that maybe it's not regulation, but coordination, like more like an organic body that will need to evolve over time, rather been frozen in time.
(23:37):
Nishan DegnarainBut how how do you see us reaching some sort of consensus around the value system that will govern, how we would operate or industrialize, space?
Bill DiamondYeah. Well, so lots of different parts of that question. I would say one thing about Antarctica and that that is perhaps part of why the this, you know, coordination and protection, if you will, of this pristine environment has been able to take place, has probably been this perception in the private sector. Well, there's not a lot of money to be made down there, right?
(24:12):
Bill DiamondYeah. So I mean, that could change as, as, you know, there's more melting and we actually get access to the, to the continent that's underneath the ice. But but you know, it, it hasn't, you know, if there were gold or oil or some other thing, that was desperately needed, I think that, you know.
Nishan DegnarainThe.
Bill DiamondQuestion would be thrown with the wind and, you know, these, these coordinated efforts might be, you know, cast aside for the interest of, of either profits or, or need, economic or otherwise. But, but I do think nevertheless, it's, it's been a very positive example of what we can do when we collectively decide to protect a given environment or to, you know, at least coordinate, if not regulate access and use of that environment.
(25:01):
Bill DiamondIn terms of building consensus, I think, you know, a great way to start is to build consensus.
Nishan DegnarainWhich means.
Bill DiamondHaving voices around the table with different perspectives and different interests and giving everybody an on opportunity to weigh in that if you don't do that, if you only have the key beneficiaries or the key players who are able to actually, take advantage of this, of this new economy or this new, new, paradigm space that, that you're not building consensus, you know, you know, the people around the table may all agree, but, you know, you're missing half the world or, you know, things along those lines.
(25:37):
Bill DiamondI think a good example is, is the bad example that we, you know, we seen in Hawaii, you know, where we built observatories and, and did so with, you know, sort of ignoring, the, the perspectives and, and views and, you know, religious and cultural importance of these prestigious, I mean, that, these, that these precious areas, pristine areas where we wanted to build these observatories to the local people, to the indigenous people.
(26:09):
Bill DiamondAnd, I think the same exact observatories doing the same exact science could have been built with everybody being happy about it. If you'd had all the voices around the table beginning, that if you were respecting all the different, different viewpoints, and maybe integrating their viewpoints and perspectives into how you design and how you build and what you do there.
(26:32):
Bill DiamondI think it was a completely avoidable debacle. If we had tried to build consensus, if we had said, you know, hey, we would love to work with you and with your people and with your cultural and understand it and integrate it into this thing that we want to do that, by the way, we think gives all of humanity, you know, this, this unbelievable access and knowledge, that, that presumably we all can cherish and benefit from.
(27:02):
Bill DiamondSo I think there's, there's examples of where we've really screwed that up and we and, and we could have done it differently. And that's what we should do too, here. So a great way to build consensus is to actually build consensus, which again, I just think means you've got all the everybody's around the table and you don't have, you know, some beneficial theory subset around the table that's ignoring, you know, a sizable fraction of the planet.
(27:29):
Miki SodeYeah. And that brings us back to what we talked about earlier, about the education and outreach being the core of what city does. Right? Because that if we awareness and consensus comes from being aware of such tradition or sentiment to that holy land of that, you know, of the land on Hawaii where this observatory was built, or how each culture have different relationship to the moon, you know, all of that, or how important, the, the night sky is to astronomer and all of that.
(28:13):
Miki SodeRight. So I, I, I feel, I resonate a lot about what you do at city and your mission because I think that, there are a lot for us to learn. From what you do and people in your community in terms of, like, building a, you know, more, a more accessible, I guess a better access to space so that we could all benefit from space enabled data or knowledge of technology to, for the betterment of our lives here on Earth and for the future.
(29:00):
Miki SodeSo. Yeah. So maybe I'll. Sorry.
Bill DiamondThat question.
Miki SodeOh, no, no, no. Go ahead.
Bill DiamondI was just going to say, I think that, you know, this this, idea of of engagement, I mean, the outreach, the the point of the outreach and the education programs is to reach as many people as possible. In other words, to make everybody part of this endeavor. You know, our endeavor, our search for, you know, life beyond Earth is for all of humankind.
(29:30):
Bill DiamondIt's not for the City Institute. It's not for Americans only. It's not for, you know, civilian industrialized or technological nations. It's for the whole planet. It's it's something that we do that we think is something meaningful and important to every person on earth. And, and therefore, you know, sharing what we do with everybody we think is, is a responsibility.
(29:51):
Bill DiamondWe have as much as, you know, we we feel it's an important thing to do, but we think it's a responsible thing to do. And, you know, making people aware of, of this endeavor and what it entails and how we do it and what we've learned and also, how it reflects back on a better understanding of, of ourselves as a species.
Bill DiamondI think it's a is important and useful. I mean, imagine, for example, if before humans put that first footprint on the moon, that, you know, the entity, the United States and NASA that was able to pull that off had gone and had conversation with people from from Islam or from indigenous tribes or, you know, people from different countries and, and said, you know, we'd like to make you part of this, that when that footprint goes on the moon, you are part of that footprint, you know, and and that again, this is I mean, as Neil Armstrong said, you know, one, one small step for man, one giant step for mankind.
(30:54):
Bill DiamondYou know, that this is really for for everybody. But unless you engage and unless you build consensus, some people are going to feel left out and left behind. And I think this is too big, you know, an undertaking and too big an opportunity and so much tied to our future as a, as a species, that, that everybody deserves to be heard and feel like they're involved and can benefit and in some way.
(31:22):
Nishan DegnarainBill, I think on that note, we can speak, all, all day, I think, on some of these ideas, but on that, that that's a really profound and insightful, inspiration legacy that this is one giant leap for humankind. You know, that next frontier that we're about to to embark on. And this is a chance for us to put the best foot forward.
Nishan DegnarainI mean, some of the points that you mentioned over the course of this podcast, in terms of the access to space for all communities, the need for coordination, not let's say regulation, implies a whole different set of levers of influence. What institutions could look like. Yeah, what we mean institutional coordination mechanism and and being inclusive because sometimes you have to go that far and broad rather than going fast.
(32:02):
Nishan DegnarainBut that long term that will actually create these, these profound leaps, that civilizational, we will need if we're looking in those terms. I think they're really profound and important perspectives that we can bring in. Bill, we've run out of time. So from Miki and I thank you so much. We've really enjoyed today's discussion.
Bill DiamondWell, it's been a lot of fun. It's, it's a great topic, and I'm glad you guys are diving into it. And, we wish you many more great conversations.
(32:28):
Miki SodeThank you. Thank you.
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