April 23, 2025 • 29 mins
Designing Sustainability Into the Space Sector: Insights from Europe
In Episode 7 of ESG in Space, hosts Nishan Degnarain and Miki Sode sit down with sustainability strategist Sabrina Alam, whose cross-sector work spans theoretical physics, government policy, and commercial space. Currently at KPMG Luxembourg, Sabrina shares a deep dive into how Europe is embedding ESG principles into its space infrastructure, from satellite design to lifecycle assessments and regulatory policy.
This episode explores Europe’s proactive stance on sustainability by design, the impact of mandatory ESG reporting frameworks like CSRD, and how these policies are reshaping both public and private actors across the space value chain. Sabrina also discusses how European operators balance innovation and competitiveness with sustainability mandates, and how these approaches could influence global norms.
If you're curious about the intersection of sustainability, policy, and economic resilience in the space sector, especially through a European lens, this episode is essential listening.
Recorded March 2025
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:19):
Nishan DegnarainHello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the podcast around sustainability and Space. My name is Nishan.
Miki SodeAnd my name is Miki Soda. Thank you for joining us.
Nishan DegnarainAnd we're delighted today to have, special guest, Sabrina alum joining us. Sabrina has got a very deep and expensive, extensive, experience in, space sustainability and ESG measures, particularly from the European perspective. And so we're looking forward to discussing and seeing, a slightly different perspective on how European, European, regulators and operators are thinking about sustainability in space.
(00:54):
Nishan DegnarainSo with that, let me welcome Sabrina to the stage. Sabrina, welcome.
Sabrina AlumHello. Thank you for having me. And, yeah, looking forward to the discussion and to being here with you and sharing the European, perspectives, and particularly my experience both in the space and ESG domain.
Nishan DegnarainFantastic. I mean, maybe, Sabrina, we could start just by sharing a little bit of your background, because I know you've worked with some of the largest satellite operators, in Europe. And I've also been working as an advisor on some really interesting projects. On the, on the regulatory side as well. So maybe just give a little bit of a background of, the sorts of space agencies, that you worked with and the companies that you've worked with, the topics you've worked on as well.
(01:37):
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. So, I would take that background a bit strange, so to say. So I'm a theoretical physicist by background. I studied and really got into the space industry with the International Space University. And from that went to NASA, then the European Space Agency. So the astronaut center in Cologne, and then I would say started my commercial space career with SES satellites.
(02:00):
Sabrina AlumSo I did then different domains, but eventually ended up in ESG, which was great. I'm looking at everything from the space sustainability side, the environmental climate envi, impact assessment side. And also the social side. So I would say the really broad, area of ESG sustainability. And then a big part of that is the policy side.
(02:24):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory aspect, working with the the Chamber of Commerce to European Commission, on what that means for Luxembourg, what that means for the space and satellite industry. And that's when I decided to move into the consulting domain, where I headed up the sustainability department at BDO and lots Hamburg. And now I'm with KPMG Luxembourg, and I look after the EU space practice, but also been still working on a lot of really interesting ESG projects.
(02:55):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory piece, to the, again, environmental lifecycle assessment piece, and so on. So happy to share that with you today.
Nishan DegnarainThat I basically have one question is straight off the bat is what makes the European approach to sustainability or to space unique compared to any of the other regions in the world or not that kind of space? Actually, actors, they're out there. But Europe has a very unique approach in approach to space. So what would you say is a unique features?
(03:29):
Sabrina AlumYeah. Well, I would say that Europe has been great and especially leading and being at the forefront of sustainability in recent years. So one big thing that's come up is a corporate sustainability reporting directive. So CSR added so to say and that's been I would say mandatory framework for a lot of larger organizations in Europe. And the idea is that companies that fit into that scope have to report to ESG data.
(03:56):
Sabrina AlumAnd we call it producer non-financial report, which will be audited. So with that, we're having a lot of space companies impacted because they either fall into that scope and have to report, or they fall within the value chain of that report. So because of how I would say, you know, because of that push from Europe itself, from a regulatory perspective, we have seen perspectives change.
(04:23):
Sabrina AlumWe're seeing the industry being pushed into thinking differently. But actually, something I did want to mention is that the European space domain has actually always thought about sustainability. And I kind of want to bring up this concept of, you know, sustainability by design. And what we mean by that is actually it's a concept where either way, you're looking at sustainability, whether it's from a risk perspective, from an opportunity perspective, from a design innovation perspective.
(04:54):
Sabrina AlumSo really taking into account that holistic understanding. So we've seen initiatives from the European Space Agency such as the Eco Design Task Force. We've seen an initiative from the European Commission, most recently where they're developing some and put a PCR, which is looking at lifecycle assessment guidelines for the space industry. We've also seen so many initiatives coming from the European Commission and the Parliament on value chain due diligence, social and human rights and so on.
(05:26):
Sabrina AlumSo all of that, I would say, has kind of create change, and has developed into this, I would say melting pot of really sustainability being at the forefront of the agenda when it comes to agencies across Europe, when it comes to private industry across Europe, it's been a key feature in funding opportunities, with VCs, private equity as well.
(05:53):
Sabrina AlumSo it's.
Nishan Degnarain
Sabrina AlumI think really at a critical point, which you just can't escape from, which is great. But again, something really key is that it's from various perspectives. Again, it's not just looking at the regulatory side, it's looking also about what it means for you as a business. How do you remain profitable in the long term? How do you assess those climate risks?
(06:18):
Sabrina AlumHow do you use satellite data even to help governments on, to help regions on, so we're seeing those different facets of space and sustainability really come together.
Miki SodeI think what's amazing to me is that this, requirement to have a report on sustainability effort in, European countries have pushed everybody to think differently about, you know, having, as you said, sustainability by design in what they do. And, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about how, what are some design opportunities, that, that you see companies adopted to, the sort of like, answer to this requirement?
(07:13):
Miki SodeYeah. If you can, give us a little example. That would be wonderful.
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. I mean, look at the IT crisis faces a large area in itself, right? You have everything from telecommunication, satellite, Earth observation, exploration, and I don't honestly, I could go on for days about those different parts of, space. But the key to that is sustainability. Again, being kind of the crucial connecting point. So one key thing, that I want to mention is that a lot of organizations are looking at, well, where is the space industry and space data able to facilitate the sustainability of gender of governments, private industry, of the financial sector?
(08:00):
Sabrina AlumSo that's kind of a discussion that's being talked about so much now that if you're five years ago, the observation and how it was used wasn't at the top of the agenda. So this year it's, it is budget. 33% of that is going towards Earth observation. And that's the largest piece of ESA's budget. So, you know, this is becoming a huge domain.
(08:24):
Sabrina AlumOn the other side, we're seeing space sustainability becoming, increasingly talked about, again, without being sustainable in space, we have no business model. Y is an industry, right? We need to make sure it is what we call sustainable so that we actually can use it in the long term. So every conference you go to, there's always a talk about space sustainability.
(08:47):
Sabrina AlumYou know, anywhere you kind of turn satellite operators are talking about a launch, providers are talking about it. So the whole value chain is talking about that aspect. So, you know, going back to your question, Mickey, you know, when we look at even a concept of of designing a new satellite, space sustainability elements are going into that right from the get go.
(09:11):
Sabrina AlumYou have that space sustainability rating as well. So a lot of data collection, being able to gather information from your vendors or putting requirements in at the very beginning. Then you've got those lifecycle assessment. So really looking at an environmental impact assessment, and those criteria again going in to design processes from the very beginning, those being at the top of the discussions as well within vendor negotiations.
(09:39):
Sabrina AlumSo the thinking is different now. It's not just about how do you put a profitable asset into space. It's also how do you put something into space, making sure that it's going to last long term, making sure you limit the damage both in the space environment and on the Earth environment. And how do you make sure that actually it's a model that's going to last in the long term, and you've thought about what's going to happen at the end of life?
(10:07):
Sabrina AlumSo yeah, there's plenty of initiatives. We're seeing all types of, again, agencies funding these type of initiatives. We're seeing agencies actually working towards them. We're seeing the private sector do work in this. So, yeah, there's a lot going on. And I think Europe has been leading this, and has been really pushing for this for, for a number of years.
(10:31):
Sabrina AlumAnd it's just, you know, it's really excelling. And the pace of the advancements in technology regulation, and, you know, from the geopolitical side has been ever increasing, I would say.
Nishan DegnarainSo that's interesting. Especially that that latter part, when you talked about the role of the private sector, I can see the public sector need for sustainability for some think about the public good and reuse of space. So there's no, externalities like space debris, for example. But when it comes to thinking about the competitiveness of the, the private sector, the private space industry in Europe and any trade offs that the European private sector will have to face with sustainability and sustainability are the requirements and norms compared to other regions in the world, the US or other region?
(11:21):
Nishan DegnarainHow are the actors in Europe thinking about this? Is that a competitive handicap, or this ability to, that prevents them from being as kind of cost conscious? Or are there unique features that could attract different types of investors, for example, in and or lower insurance? How is Europe and European operators thinking about that competitiveness? Question vis a vis sustainability?
(11:44):
Sabrina AlumYou know, it's really interesting you ask that because that's been a conversation. I think I've had that same conversation about three times this week, actually. So it's a really important one, you know, because it's also something that the European Commission and Parliament have been discussing, for all industries. And I think with space, you know, from a competitive standpoint, it's actually an absolutely necessary conversation to have space runs and is fueled by rare earth minerals.
(12:15):
Sabrina AlumAnd they're not called rare earth minerals for a reason. You know, they are the reason why is that there's a limited amount space runs off. The fact that launches, you know, are sitting in areas that could be subject to environmental catastrophes, extreme weather events. And there's I would say and again, from this space sustainability perspective.
(12:36):
Sabrina AlumSo actually all of these things feed into what we call sustainability on earth and sustainability and space and come under the umbrella of ESG. So when we talk about Europe, the way they think about competitiveness, innovation and so on, sustainability is a crucial aspect in that because again, from a business model, longevity standpoint, it's inevitable. It's something that has to be understood from the get go in order to make sure that they are long term viable.
(13:09):
Sabrina AlumThose business models are profitable. So I don't necessarily, or rather, they don't necessarily see sustainable reality as a hindrance or potentially a burden, but they see it as rather an opportunity to make sure that they are putting out the best of the best when they can. And in the right way of doing things. I may maybe to that, you know, we do see a lot of ESG reporting coming up and all these new standards, so you I'll throw some acronyms at you, you know, SAS, Beagrie, CDP.
(13:42):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from kind of, reporting, voluntary reporting on a under a mandatory basis under CSR, for example. And the difference is, is that the reporting makes sure that you're not just putting out statements, and it's not just qualitative pieces of information you're putting out, but actually you are understanding what you're doing. You're measuring what you're doing.
(14:09):
Sabrina AlumYou're able to improve what you're doing so that in the long term, you as a business understand what it means for your financials as well. You as a business understand what it means from a competitive standpoint, from, you know, a functioning operational standpoint to so, again, all of those from a reporting perspective, from the kind of innovative and technological and long term business model perspective, actually, you know, at the end of the day is something that they see as, again, this opportunity, keeping in mind that the end goal is to make sure that, okay, you're making an impact and you're doing this impact.
(14:53):
Sabrina AlumSo it's not just about data collection, but you're acting on the data as well. When you're making informed decisions based on the data.
Nishan DegnarainThat's interesting in itself because, if you think about how the private sector on Earth is regulated, we have these quarterly results. I have to go in on the stock market. And I guess about a lot of the space, space companies, private space companies, relatively few of them are listed on the stock market. So a lot of, companies that are privately held or quasi public, private sector.
(15:26):
Nishan DegnarainAnd by putting in place these reporting mechanisms that, that go beyond just your quarterly results, you're stretching the time, right? You're stretched to the time horizon as if you start to think about the space industry. It's a lengthy, investment horizon, impact horizon. So, I wonder, you know, to what extent you see that, there needs to be different sorts of, agencies or reporting mechanisms or institutions to govern that, that, that private, you know, sustainability in the space, obviously, just because it is a longer time horizon, there are different metrics than what's normally reported to, to, to a stock market.
(16:06):
Nishan DegnarainIs that something that you've seen, a lot of discussion around, in Europe?
Sabrina AlumYeah. No, it's actually a really good question. And, you know, the, the, the standard and the regulations that I mentioned, you know, they do have the option to kind of go industry specific as well. So understanding that. Okay, okay. Understanding that okay, the space satellite industry has, you know, like you said, a unique set to requirements, a unique set of metrics.
(16:36):
Sabrina AlumAnd I would say that, you know, if I'm being quite frank, they're somewhat underdeveloped for the space industry. And the reason being is because the space industry is ever growing and ever changing as well. So it's very hard to say, these are the exact types of data we need within this time frame. Again, because of how complex the value chain of the industry is, and how unique it is from a again.
(17:26):
Nishan DegnarainHello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the podcast around Sustainability and Space. My name is Nishan.
Miki SodeAnd my name is Miki. So thank you for joining us.
Nishan DegnarainAnd we're delighted today to have, a special guest, Sabrina alum joining us. Sabrina has got a very deep and expensive, extensive experience in, space sustainability and ESG measures, particularly from the European perspective. And so we're looking forward to discussing and seeing, a slightly different perspective on how Europe and European, regulators and operators are thinking about sustainability in space.
(18:01):
Nishan DegnarainSo with that, let me welcome Sabrina to the stage. Sabrina, welcome.
Sabrina AlumHello. Thank you for having me. And, yeah, looking forward to the discussion and to being here with you and sharing the European, perspectives, and particularly my experience both in the space and ESG domain.
Nishan DegnarainFantastic. I mean, maybe, Sabrina, we could start just by sharing a little bit of kind of your background, because I know you've worked with some of the largest satellite operators, in Europe. And I've also been worked as an advisor on some really interesting projects, on the, on the regulatory side as well. So maybe just give a little bit of a background of, the sorts of space agencies, that you worked with.
(18:41):
Nishan DegnarainAnd this was a company that you've worked with, the topics you've worked on as well.
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. So, I would say that background's a bit strange, so to say. So I'm a theoretical physicist by background, studied and really got into the space industry with the International Space University. And from that went to NASA, then the European Space Agency. So the astronaut center in Cologne, and then I would say started my commercial space career with satellites.
(19:07):
Sabrina AlumSo I did different domains, but eventually ended up in ESG, which was great. I'm looking at everything from the space sustainability side, the environmental or climate, impact assessment side. And also the social side. So I would say the really broad, area of ESG sustainability. And then a big part of that is the policy side.
(19:31):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory aspect, working with the, the Chamber of Commerce, the European Commission, on what that means for Luxembourg, what that means for the space and satellite industry. And that's when I decided to move into the consulting domain, where I headed up the sustainability department at BDO and lots and, and now I'm with KPMG Luxembourg, and I look after the EU space practice, but also been still working on a lot of really interesting ESG projects.
(20:02):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory piece, to the, again, environmental lifecycle assessment piece, and so on. So happy to share that with you today.
Nishan DegnarainThat I actually have one question is straight off the bat is what makes the European approach to sustainability or to space unique compared to any of the other kind of regions in the world, or not that kind of space? Actually actors, that are out there. But Europe has a very unique approach in approach to space. So what would you say is the unique features?
(20:36):
Sabrina AlumYeah. Well, I would say that Europe has been great and especially leading and being at the forefront of sustainability in recent years. So one big thing that's come up is a corporate sustainability reporting directive. So CSR added so to say and that's been I would say mandatory framework for a lot of larger organizations in Europe. And the idea is that companies that fit into that scope have to report to ESG data.
(21:03):
Sabrina AlumAnd we call it Producer Financial Report, which will be audited. So with that, we're having a lot of space companies impacted because they either fall into that scope and have to report, or they fall within the value chain of that report. So because of how I would say, you know, because of that push from Europe itself, from a regulatory perspective, we have seen perspectives change.
(21:30):
Sabrina AlumWe're seeing the industry being pushed into thinking differently. But actually, something I did want to mention is that the European Space domain has actually always thought about sustainability. And I kind of want to bring up this concept of, you know, sustainability by design. And what we mean by that is actually it's a concept where either way, you're looking at sustainability, whether it's from a risk perspective, from an opportunity perspective, from a design innovation perspective.
(22:01):
Sabrina AlumSo really taking into account that holistic understanding. So we've seen initiatives from the European Space Agency such as the Eco Design Task Force. We've seen an initiative from the European Commission, most recently where they're developing some and put a PCR, which is looking at lifecycle assessment guidelines for the space industry. We've also seen so many initiatives coming from the European Commission and the Parliament on value chain due diligence, social and human rights and so on.
(22:33):
Sabrina AlumSo all of that, I would say, has kind of created, and has developed into this, I would say melting pot of really sustainability being at the forefront of the agenda when it comes to agencies across Europe, when it comes to private industry across Europe, it's been a key feature in funding opportunities, with VCs, private equity as well.
(23:00):
Sabrina AlumSo it's I think really at a critical point which you just can't escape from, which is great. But again, something really key is that it's from various perspectives. Again, it's not just looking at the regulatory side, it's looking also about what it means for you as a business. How do you remain profitable in the long term?
(23:22):
Sabrina AlumHow do you assess those climate risks? How do you use satellite data even to help governments on, to help regions on, so we're seeing those different facets of space and sustainability really come together.
Miki SodeI think what's amazing to me is that this, requirement to have a report on sustainability effort in, European countries have pushed everybody to think differently about, you know, having, as you said, sustainability by design in what they do. And, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about how, what are some design opportunities, that, that you see companies adapted to, the sort of like, answer to this requirement?
(24:20):
Miki SodeYeah. If you can, give us a little example. That would be wonderful.
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. I mean, look at the IT crisis faces a large area in itself, right? You have everything from telecommunication, satellite, Earth observation, exploration, and I don't honestly, I could go on for days about those different parts of, space. But the key to that is sustainability. Again, being kind of the crucial connecting point. So one key thing, that I want to mention is that a lot of organizations are looking at, well, where is the space industry and space data able to facilitate the sustainability of gender of governments, private industry, of the financial sector?
(25:07):
Sabrina AlumSo that's kind of a discussion that's being talked about so much now that if you're five years ago, Earth observation and how it was used wasn't at the top of the agenda. So this year it's, it is budget, 33% of that is going towards Earth observation. And that's the largest piece of ESA's budget. So, you know, this is becoming a huge domain.
(25:31):
Sabrina AlumOn the other side, we're seeing space sustainability becoming, increasingly talked about, again, without being sustainable or in space. We have no business model. Y is an industry, right? We need to make sure it is what we call sustainable so that we actually can use it in the long term. So every conference you go to, there's always a talk about space sustainability.
(25:54):
Sabrina AlumYou know, anywhere you kind of turn satellite operators. I talking about launch providers are talking about it. So the whole value chain is talking about that aspect. So you know, going back to your question, you know, when we look at even a concept of, of designing a new satellite, space sustainability elements are going into that right from the get go.
(26:18):
Sabrina AlumYou have that space sustainability rating as well. So a lot of data collection, being able to gather information from your vendors or putting requirements in at the very beginning. Then you've got those lifecycle assessment. So really looking at and environmental impact assessment, and those criteria again going in to design processes from the very beginning, that was being at the top of the discussions as well within vendor negotiations.
(26:46):
Sabrina AlumSo the thinking is different now. It's not just about how do you put a profitable asset into space. It's also how do you put something into space, making sure that it's going to last long term, making sure you limit the damage both in the space environment and on the Earth environment. And how do you make sure that actually it's a model that's going to last in the long term, and you've thought about what's going to happen at the end of life?
(27:14):
Sabrina AlumSo yeah, there's plenty of initiatives. We're seeing all types of, again, agencies funding these type of initiatives. We're seeing agencies actually working towards them. We're seeing the private sector do work in this. So, yeah, there's a lot going on. And I think Europe has been leading this, and has been really pushing for this for, for a number of years.
(27:38):
Sabrina AlumAnd it's just, you know, it's really excelling. And the pace of the advancements in technology regulation, and, you know, from the geopolitical side has been ever increasing, I would say.
Nishan DegnarainSo that's interesting. Especially that that latter part, when you talked about the role of the private sector, I can see the public sector need for sustainability is something about the public good and reuse of space. So there's no, externalities like space debris, for example. But when it comes to thinking about the competitiveness of the, the private sector, the private space industry in Europe and any trade offs that the European private sector will have to face with sustainability and sustainability are the requirements and norms compared to other regions in the world, the US or other region?
(28:28):
Nishan DegnarainHow are the actors in Europe thinking about this? Is that a competitive handicap, or the ability to, that prevents them from being as kind of cost conscious, or are they unique features that could attract different type of investors, for example, in and or lower insurance. So how is Europe and European operators thinking about that competitiveness question vis a vis sustainability?
(28:51):
Sabrina AlumYou know, it's really interesting you ask that because that's been a conversation. I think I've had that same conversation about three times this week actually. So it's a really important one, you know, because it's also something that the European, Commission and Parliament have been discussing, for all industries. And I think with space, you know, from a competitive standpoint, it's actually an absolutely necessary conversation to have space runs and is fueled by rare earth minerals.
(29:22):
Sabrina AlumAnd they're not called rare earth minerals for a reason. You know, they are the reason why is that there's a limited amount space runs off the fact that launches, you know, sitting in areas that could be subject to environmental catastrophes, extreme weather events. And there's I would say and again, from the space sustainability perspective. So actually all of these things feed into what we call sustainable.
Nishan DegnarainHello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the podcast around sustainability and Space. My name is Nishan.
Miki SodeAnd my name is Miki Soda. Thank you for joining us.
Nishan DegnarainAnd we're delighted today to have, special guest, Sabrina alum joining us. Sabrina has got a very deep and expensive, extensive, experience in, space sustainability and ESG measures, particularly from the European perspective. And so we're looking forward to discussing and seeing, a slightly different perspective on how European, European, regulators and operators are thinking about sustainability in space.
(00:54):
Nishan DegnarainSo with that, let me welcome Sabrina to the stage. Sabrina, welcome.
Sabrina AlumHello. Thank you for having me. And, yeah, looking forward to the discussion and to being here with you and sharing the European, perspectives, and particularly my experience both in the space and ESG domain.
Nishan DegnarainFantastic. I mean, maybe, Sabrina, we could start just by sharing a little bit of your background, because I know you've worked with some of the largest satellite operators, in Europe. And I've also been working as an advisor on some really interesting projects. On the, on the regulatory side as well. So maybe just give a little bit of a background of, the sorts of space agencies, that you worked with and the companies that you've worked with, the topics you've worked on as well.
(01:37):
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. So, I would take that background a bit strange, so to say. So I'm a theoretical physicist by background. I studied and really got into the space industry with the International Space University. And from that went to NASA, then the European Space Agency. So the astronaut center in Cologne, and then I would say started my commercial space career with SES satellites.
(02:00):
Sabrina AlumSo I did then different domains, but eventually ended up in ESG, which was great. I'm looking at everything from the space sustainability side, the environmental climate envi, impact assessment side. And also the social side. So I would say the really broad, area of ESG sustainability. And then a big part of that is the policy side.
(02:24):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory aspect, working with the the Chamber of Commerce to European Commission, on what that means for Luxembourg, what that means for the space and satellite industry. And that's when I decided to move into the consulting domain, where I headed up the sustainability department at BDO and lots Hamburg. And now I'm with KPMG Luxembourg, and I look after the EU space practice, but also been still working on a lot of really interesting ESG projects.
(02:55):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory piece, to the, again, environmental lifecycle assessment piece, and so on. So happy to share that with you today.
Nishan DegnarainThat I basically have one question is straight off the bat is what makes the European approach to sustainability or to space unique compared to any of the other regions in the world or not that kind of space? Actually, actors, they're out there. But Europe has a very unique approach in approach to space. So what would you say is a unique features?
(03:29):
Sabrina AlumYeah. Well, I would say that Europe has been great and especially leading and being at the forefront of sustainability in recent years. So one big thing that's come up is a corporate sustainability reporting directive. So CSR added so to say and that's been I would say mandatory framework for a lot of larger organizations in Europe. And the idea is that companies that fit into that scope have to report to ESG data.
(03:56):
Sabrina AlumAnd we call it producer non-financial report, which will be audited. So with that, we're having a lot of space companies impacted because they either fall into that scope and have to report, or they fall within the value chain of that report. So because of how I would say, you know, because of that push from Europe itself, from a regulatory perspective, we have seen perspectives change.
(04:23):
Sabrina AlumWe're seeing the industry being pushed into thinking differently. But actually, something I did want to mention is that the European space domain has actually always thought about sustainability. And I kind of want to bring up this concept of, you know, sustainability by design. And what we mean by that is actually it's a concept where either way, you're looking at sustainability, whether it's from a risk perspective, from an opportunity perspective, from a design innovation perspective.
(04:54):
Sabrina AlumSo really taking into account that holistic understanding. So we've seen initiatives from the European Space Agency such as the Eco Design Task Force. We've seen an initiative from the European Commission, most recently where they're developing some and put a PCR, which is looking at lifecycle assessment guidelines for the space industry. We've also seen so many initiatives coming from the European Commission and the Parliament on value chain due diligence, social and human rights and so on.
(05:26):
Sabrina AlumSo all of that, I would say, has kind of create change, and has developed into this, I would say melting pot of really sustainability being at the forefront of the agenda when it comes to agencies across Europe, when it comes to private industry across Europe, it's been a key feature in funding opportunities, with VCs, private equity as well.
(05:53):
Sabrina AlumSo it's.
Nishan Degnarain
Sabrina AlumI think really at a critical point, which you just can't escape from, which is great. But again, something really key is that it's from various perspectives. Again, it's not just looking at the regulatory side, it's looking also about what it means for you as a business. How do you remain profitable in the long term? How do you assess those climate risks?
(06:18):
Sabrina AlumHow do you use satellite data even to help governments on, to help regions on, so we're seeing those different facets of space and sustainability really come together.
Miki SodeI think what's amazing to me is that this, requirement to have a report on sustainability effort in, European countries have pushed everybody to think differently about, you know, having, as you said, sustainability by design in what they do. And, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about how, what are some design opportunities, that, that you see companies adopted to, the sort of like, answer to this requirement?
(07:13):
Miki SodeYeah. If you can, give us a little example. That would be wonderful.
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. I mean, look at the IT crisis faces a large area in itself, right? You have everything from telecommunication, satellite, Earth observation, exploration, and I don't honestly, I could go on for days about those different parts of, space. But the key to that is sustainability. Again, being kind of the crucial connecting point. So one key thing, that I want to mention is that a lot of organizations are looking at, well, where is the space industry and space data able to facilitate the sustainability of gender of governments, private industry, of the financial sector?
(08:00):
Sabrina AlumSo that's kind of a discussion that's being talked about so much now that if you're five years ago, the observation and how it was used wasn't at the top of the agenda. So this year it's, it is budget. 33% of that is going towards Earth observation. And that's the largest piece of ESA's budget. So, you know, this is becoming a huge domain.
(08:24):
Sabrina AlumOn the other side, we're seeing space sustainability becoming, increasingly talked about, again, without being sustainable in space, we have no business model. Y is an industry, right? We need to make sure it is what we call sustainable so that we actually can use it in the long term. So every conference you go to, there's always a talk about space sustainability.
(08:47):
Sabrina AlumYou know, anywhere you kind of turn satellite operators are talking about a launch, providers are talking about it. So the whole value chain is talking about that aspect. So, you know, going back to your question, Mickey, you know, when we look at even a concept of of designing a new satellite, space sustainability elements are going into that right from the get go.
(09:11):
Sabrina AlumYou have that space sustainability rating as well. So a lot of data collection, being able to gather information from your vendors or putting requirements in at the very beginning. Then you've got those lifecycle assessment. So really looking at an environmental impact assessment, and those criteria again going in to design processes from the very beginning, those being at the top of the discussions as well within vendor negotiations.
(09:39):
Sabrina AlumSo the thinking is different now. It's not just about how do you put a profitable asset into space. It's also how do you put something into space, making sure that it's going to last long term, making sure you limit the damage both in the space environment and on the Earth environment. And how do you make sure that actually it's a model that's going to last in the long term, and you've thought about what's going to happen at the end of life?
(10:07):
Sabrina AlumSo yeah, there's plenty of initiatives. We're seeing all types of, again, agencies funding these type of initiatives. We're seeing agencies actually working towards them. We're seeing the private sector do work in this. So, yeah, there's a lot going on. And I think Europe has been leading this, and has been really pushing for this for, for a number of years.
(10:31):
Sabrina AlumAnd it's just, you know, it's really excelling. And the pace of the advancements in technology regulation, and, you know, from the geopolitical side has been ever increasing, I would say.
Nishan DegnarainSo that's interesting. Especially that that latter part, when you talked about the role of the private sector, I can see the public sector need for sustainability for some think about the public good and reuse of space. So there's no, externalities like space debris, for example. But when it comes to thinking about the competitiveness of the, the private sector, the private space industry in Europe and any trade offs that the European private sector will have to face with sustainability and sustainability are the requirements and norms compared to other regions in the world, the US or other region?
(11:21):
Nishan DegnarainHow are the actors in Europe thinking about this? Is that a competitive handicap, or this ability to, that prevents them from being as kind of cost conscious? Or are there unique features that could attract different types of investors, for example, in and or lower insurance? How is Europe and European operators thinking about that competitiveness? Question vis a vis sustainability?
(11:44):
Sabrina AlumYou know, it's really interesting you ask that because that's been a conversation. I think I've had that same conversation about three times this week, actually. So it's a really important one, you know, because it's also something that the European Commission and Parliament have been discussing, for all industries. And I think with space, you know, from a competitive standpoint, it's actually an absolutely necessary conversation to have space runs and is fueled by rare earth minerals.
(12:15):
Sabrina AlumAnd they're not called rare earth minerals for a reason. You know, they are the reason why is that there's a limited amount space runs off. The fact that launches, you know, are sitting in areas that could be subject to environmental catastrophes, extreme weather events. And there's I would say and again, from this space sustainability perspective.
(12:36):
Sabrina AlumSo actually all of these things feed into what we call sustainability on earth and sustainability and space and come under the umbrella of ESG. So when we talk about Europe, the way they think about competitiveness, innovation and so on, sustainability is a crucial aspect in that because again, from a business model, longevity standpoint, it's inevitable. It's something that has to be understood from the get go in order to make sure that they are long term viable.
(13:09):
Sabrina AlumThose business models are profitable. So I don't necessarily, or rather, they don't necessarily see sustainable reality as a hindrance or potentially a burden, but they see it as rather an opportunity to make sure that they are putting out the best of the best when they can. And in the right way of doing things. I may maybe to that, you know, we do see a lot of ESG reporting coming up and all these new standards, so you I'll throw some acronyms at you, you know, SAS, Beagrie, CDP.
(13:42):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from kind of, reporting, voluntary reporting on a under a mandatory basis under CSR, for example. And the difference is, is that the reporting makes sure that you're not just putting out statements, and it's not just qualitative pieces of information you're putting out, but actually you are understanding what you're doing. You're measuring what you're doing.
(14:09):
Sabrina AlumYou're able to improve what you're doing so that in the long term, you as a business understand what it means for your financials as well. You as a business understand what it means from a competitive standpoint, from, you know, a functioning operational standpoint to so, again, all of those from a reporting perspective, from the kind of innovative and technological and long term business model perspective, actually, you know, at the end of the day is something that they see as, again, this opportunity, keeping in mind that the end goal is to make sure that, okay, you're making an impact and you're doing this impact.
(14:53):
Sabrina AlumSo it's not just about data collection, but you're acting on the data as well. When you're making informed decisions based on the data.
Nishan DegnarainThat's interesting in itself because, if you think about how the private sector on Earth is regulated, we have these quarterly results. I have to go in on the stock market. And I guess about a lot of the space, space companies, private space companies, relatively few of them are listed on the stock market. So a lot of, companies that are privately held or quasi public, private sector.
(15:26):
Nishan DegnarainAnd by putting in place these reporting mechanisms that, that go beyond just your quarterly results, you're stretching the time, right? You're stretched to the time horizon as if you start to think about the space industry. It's a lengthy, investment horizon, impact horizon. So, I wonder, you know, to what extent you see that, there needs to be different sorts of, agencies or reporting mechanisms or institutions to govern that, that, that private, you know, sustainability in the space, obviously, just because it is a longer time horizon, there are different metrics than what's normally reported to, to, to a stock market.
(16:06):
Nishan DegnarainIs that something that you've seen, a lot of discussion around, in Europe?
Sabrina AlumYeah. No, it's actually a really good question. And, you know, the, the, the standard and the regulations that I mentioned, you know, they do have the option to kind of go industry specific as well. So understanding that. Okay, okay. Understanding that okay, the space satellite industry has, you know, like you said, a unique set to requirements, a unique set of metrics.
(16:36):
Sabrina AlumAnd I would say that, you know, if I'm being quite frank, they're somewhat underdeveloped for the space industry. And the reason being is because the space industry is ever growing and ever changing as well. So it's very hard to say, these are the exact types of data we need within this time frame. Again, because of how complex the value chain of the industry is, and how unique it is from a again.
(17:26):
Nishan DegnarainHello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the podcast around Sustainability and Space. My name is Nishan.
Miki SodeAnd my name is Miki. So thank you for joining us.
Nishan DegnarainAnd we're delighted today to have, a special guest, Sabrina alum joining us. Sabrina has got a very deep and expensive, extensive experience in, space sustainability and ESG measures, particularly from the European perspective. And so we're looking forward to discussing and seeing, a slightly different perspective on how Europe and European, regulators and operators are thinking about sustainability in space.
(18:01):
Nishan DegnarainSo with that, let me welcome Sabrina to the stage. Sabrina, welcome.
Sabrina AlumHello. Thank you for having me. And, yeah, looking forward to the discussion and to being here with you and sharing the European, perspectives, and particularly my experience both in the space and ESG domain.
Nishan DegnarainFantastic. I mean, maybe, Sabrina, we could start just by sharing a little bit of kind of your background, because I know you've worked with some of the largest satellite operators, in Europe. And I've also been worked as an advisor on some really interesting projects, on the, on the regulatory side as well. So maybe just give a little bit of a background of, the sorts of space agencies, that you worked with.
(18:41):
Nishan DegnarainAnd this was a company that you've worked with, the topics you've worked on as well.
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. So, I would say that background's a bit strange, so to say. So I'm a theoretical physicist by background, studied and really got into the space industry with the International Space University. And from that went to NASA, then the European Space Agency. So the astronaut center in Cologne, and then I would say started my commercial space career with satellites.
(19:07):
Sabrina AlumSo I did different domains, but eventually ended up in ESG, which was great. I'm looking at everything from the space sustainability side, the environmental or climate, impact assessment side. And also the social side. So I would say the really broad, area of ESG sustainability. And then a big part of that is the policy side.
(19:31):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory aspect, working with the, the Chamber of Commerce, the European Commission, on what that means for Luxembourg, what that means for the space and satellite industry. And that's when I decided to move into the consulting domain, where I headed up the sustainability department at BDO and lots and, and now I'm with KPMG Luxembourg, and I look after the EU space practice, but also been still working on a lot of really interesting ESG projects.
(20:02):
Sabrina AlumSo everything from the regulatory piece, to the, again, environmental lifecycle assessment piece, and so on. So happy to share that with you today.
Nishan DegnarainThat I actually have one question is straight off the bat is what makes the European approach to sustainability or to space unique compared to any of the other kind of regions in the world, or not that kind of space? Actually actors, that are out there. But Europe has a very unique approach in approach to space. So what would you say is the unique features?
(20:36):
Sabrina AlumYeah. Well, I would say that Europe has been great and especially leading and being at the forefront of sustainability in recent years. So one big thing that's come up is a corporate sustainability reporting directive. So CSR added so to say and that's been I would say mandatory framework for a lot of larger organizations in Europe. And the idea is that companies that fit into that scope have to report to ESG data.
(21:03):
Sabrina AlumAnd we call it Producer Financial Report, which will be audited. So with that, we're having a lot of space companies impacted because they either fall into that scope and have to report, or they fall within the value chain of that report. So because of how I would say, you know, because of that push from Europe itself, from a regulatory perspective, we have seen perspectives change.
(21:30):
Sabrina AlumWe're seeing the industry being pushed into thinking differently. But actually, something I did want to mention is that the European Space domain has actually always thought about sustainability. And I kind of want to bring up this concept of, you know, sustainability by design. And what we mean by that is actually it's a concept where either way, you're looking at sustainability, whether it's from a risk perspective, from an opportunity perspective, from a design innovation perspective.
(22:01):
Sabrina AlumSo really taking into account that holistic understanding. So we've seen initiatives from the European Space Agency such as the Eco Design Task Force. We've seen an initiative from the European Commission, most recently where they're developing some and put a PCR, which is looking at lifecycle assessment guidelines for the space industry. We've also seen so many initiatives coming from the European Commission and the Parliament on value chain due diligence, social and human rights and so on.
(22:33):
Sabrina AlumSo all of that, I would say, has kind of created, and has developed into this, I would say melting pot of really sustainability being at the forefront of the agenda when it comes to agencies across Europe, when it comes to private industry across Europe, it's been a key feature in funding opportunities, with VCs, private equity as well.
(23:00):
Sabrina AlumSo it's I think really at a critical point which you just can't escape from, which is great. But again, something really key is that it's from various perspectives. Again, it's not just looking at the regulatory side, it's looking also about what it means for you as a business. How do you remain profitable in the long term?
(23:22):
Sabrina AlumHow do you assess those climate risks? How do you use satellite data even to help governments on, to help regions on, so we're seeing those different facets of space and sustainability really come together.
Miki SodeI think what's amazing to me is that this, requirement to have a report on sustainability effort in, European countries have pushed everybody to think differently about, you know, having, as you said, sustainability by design in what they do. And, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about how, what are some design opportunities, that, that you see companies adapted to, the sort of like, answer to this requirement?
(24:20):
Miki SodeYeah. If you can, give us a little example. That would be wonderful.
Sabrina AlumYeah, sure. I mean, look at the IT crisis faces a large area in itself, right? You have everything from telecommunication, satellite, Earth observation, exploration, and I don't honestly, I could go on for days about those different parts of, space. But the key to that is sustainability. Again, being kind of the crucial connecting point. So one key thing, that I want to mention is that a lot of organizations are looking at, well, where is the space industry and space data able to facilitate the sustainability of gender of governments, private industry, of the financial sector?
(25:07):
Sabrina AlumSo that's kind of a discussion that's being talked about so much now that if you're five years ago, Earth observation and how it was used wasn't at the top of the agenda. So this year it's, it is budget, 33% of that is going towards Earth observation. And that's the largest piece of ESA's budget. So, you know, this is becoming a huge domain.
(25:31):
Sabrina AlumOn the other side, we're seeing space sustainability becoming, increasingly talked about, again, without being sustainable or in space. We have no business model. Y is an industry, right? We need to make sure it is what we call sustainable so that we actually can use it in the long term. So every conference you go to, there's always a talk about space sustainability.
(25:54):
Sabrina AlumYou know, anywhere you kind of turn satellite operators. I talking about launch providers are talking about it. So the whole value chain is talking about that aspect. So you know, going back to your question, you know, when we look at even a concept of, of designing a new satellite, space sustainability elements are going into that right from the get go.
(26:18):
Sabrina AlumYou have that space sustainability rating as well. So a lot of data collection, being able to gather information from your vendors or putting requirements in at the very beginning. Then you've got those lifecycle assessment. So really looking at and environmental impact assessment, and those criteria again going in to design processes from the very beginning, that was being at the top of the discussions as well within vendor negotiations.
(26:46):
Sabrina AlumSo the thinking is different now. It's not just about how do you put a profitable asset into space. It's also how do you put something into space, making sure that it's going to last long term, making sure you limit the damage both in the space environment and on the Earth environment. And how do you make sure that actually it's a model that's going to last in the long term, and you've thought about what's going to happen at the end of life?
(27:14):
Sabrina AlumSo yeah, there's plenty of initiatives. We're seeing all types of, again, agencies funding these type of initiatives. We're seeing agencies actually working towards them. We're seeing the private sector do work in this. So, yeah, there's a lot going on. And I think Europe has been leading this, and has been really pushing for this for, for a number of years.
(27:38):
Sabrina AlumAnd it's just, you know, it's really excelling. And the pace of the advancements in technology regulation, and, you know, from the geopolitical side has been ever increasing, I would say.
Nishan DegnarainSo that's interesting. Especially that that latter part, when you talked about the role of the private sector, I can see the public sector need for sustainability is something about the public good and reuse of space. So there's no, externalities like space debris, for example. But when it comes to thinking about the competitiveness of the, the private sector, the private space industry in Europe and any trade offs that the European private sector will have to face with sustainability and sustainability are the requirements and norms compared to other regions in the world, the US or other region?
(28:28):
Nishan DegnarainHow are the actors in Europe thinking about this? Is that a competitive handicap, or the ability to, that prevents them from being as kind of cost conscious, or are they unique features that could attract different type of investors, for example, in and or lower insurance. So how is Europe and European operators thinking about that competitiveness question vis a vis sustainability?
(28:51):
Sabrina AlumYou know, it's really interesting you ask that because that's been a conversation. I think I've had that same conversation about three times this week actually. So it's a really important one, you know, because it's also something that the European, Commission and Parliament have been discussing, for all industries. And I think with space, you know, from a competitive standpoint, it's actually an absolutely necessary conversation to have space runs and is fueled by rare earth minerals.
(29:22):
Sabrina AlumAnd they're not called rare earth minerals for a reason. You know, they are the reason why is that there's a limited amount space runs off the fact that launches, you know, sitting in areas that could be subject to environmental catastrophes, extreme weather events. And there's I would say and again, from the space sustainability perspective. So actually all of these things feed into what we call sustainable.
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