June 5, 2025 • 29 mins
That’s a wrap on this season of ESG in Space!
Across eight episodes, we've looked into how sustainability, governance, and innovation shape the evolving space economy. So, what’s changed? Quite a bit. And what matters now more than ever? In this season wrap-up, Ian Christensen joins hosts Miki Sode and Nishan Degnarain to reflect on the insights, shifts, and standout moments from the journey so far.
“Maybe we don’t talk as much about ESG as a lens, but some of the driving considerations behind that, like coordination, risk management, and trust, are still really relevant.” — Ian Christensen, Secure World Foundation
Recorded June 2, 2025
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:18):
Nishan DegnarainHello everyone, and welcome to our concluding episode of this current season of ESG in space. My name is this Shadegg writer, one of the hosts of the podcast.
Miki SodeAnd I'm Miki Thursday. Thanks for joining us and thanks for sticking around for the whole season.
Nishan DegnarainIt's been fantastic. Having all of you join and having, Mickey as a co-host as we explore this fascinating topic of ESG and space and just a sense of context on the journey that we've we've, embarked upon. We started this podcast, almost two years ago, in a year and a half ago, around, November, October, November 2023 with a roundtable, at Wharton around the space economy.
(01:02):
Nishan DegnarainIt evolved into a series of white papers of discussions with a recognition that if the space economy is going to turn to a truly vibrant space economy, not one that is just solely government or military or scientific, kind of funded, it will need more institutional capital or private capital. But in order to do that, there are a couple of, supporting infrastructure scaffolding.
(01:26):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, at the time when we were, drafting and having discussions, ESG, environmental, social and governance was a really important vector through which a lot of capital, was flowing into different sectors. As we were looking at the transformation of the global economy to get more green, more sustainable, well, ethical, sectors. But what has happened since then is almost, I'm sure all of you know, is that with the US presidential election as being one of the, markers of this change, there's been a significant disruption in the language that's used.
(02:00):
Nishan DegnarainThe over the term ESG has become incredibly controversial. The policy direction of the public policy as well as, corporate policy, as I started evaluating, where some of these investments flow into that also, strategic decoupling for major nations and the use of space as well. And so it's been a very interesting time that as we we've launched this podcast, we've had a series of discussions in a very live and fast evolving and fast moving, field.
(02:29):
Nishan DegnarainBut I think one of the lessons that we've seen throughout has been, that there are still two big questions that remain, unanswered. You know, I think, number one, you know, how can we attract more institutional capital into the private space economy to grow the private base economy, to ensure that the basic kind of is an important economic driver of the global economy.
(02:52):
Nishan DegnarainAnd then, secondly, do we have the right institutional set up for this? Given what's happening in the world, how are we able to govern and channel, institutional capital in the right way? So there are important lessons from the aftermath. And, and, and some of our speakers touched on. So these, these topics. And so with that, maybe we should invite for a concluding episode, partner, on this journey Ian Christianson from Secure World Foundation and welcome.
(03:25):
Nishan DegnarainI mean, what are they? What are they? Some of your reflections on the podcast as you've listened to the episodes and be part of the original panel discussions and whitepapers and a support, of this project?
Ian ChristensenYeah. Thank you Mickey. Thank you, Sean, for, first off, for going through this, this journey, over these, eight episodes that, that we recorded. And I take the shot at you, nicely encapsulated some of the kind of the, key changes that we've seen in the, in the landscape over that, that period of time.
(03:54):
Ian ChristensenI think we all expected, you know, we were the innovative, fast moving industry, and we expected some change. I don't know that we expected the level of change, that we've seen. So I think that that does provide a, a nice lens to kind of look back and see, how some of the themes that, that, that were elucidated through our discussions, how those themes and, and topics still resonate and still have, relevance even in the midst of this, this disruption that you, that you mentioned.
(04:20):
Ian ChristensenSo, you know, starting from the ESG lens that we adopted in the title, and looking to to what that means in the current landscape, as I reflect and then listen to the episodes in as a, as an audience member, if you will. And kind of looking to learn myself, I hear a lot of talk about business continuity, you know, assurance of mission, safety, how we mitigate and manage risks.
(04:43):
Ian ChristensenAnd those sorts of, of frameworks, are still really relevant both to the, the operators and the folks doing the business. But but to the, the users and to the folks, providing financing and providing policy. So, you know, maybe we don't talk as much about about ESG as a lens, but some of the driving considerations, behind that, I also heard a lot of talk, about coordination.
(05:09):
Ian ChristensenRight. I think if you look back at the, eight guests we had, we had quite a good range of, of of perspectives and roles, that those guests had we have folks with kind of an operational, business background. We had folks on the end user side. We had folks, in advisory roles and reporting roles. Right.
Ian ChristensenA range of, you know, kind of, viewpoints on, on where they fall on the, on the spectrum of the importance of regulation. But I think every single one of them talked about that. We need, coordination at some level as, as we go through this transition and in the space economy. So I think, what that coordination looks like, how we operationalize it, how we develop it, what the roles of different stakeholders are in that coordination.
(05:51):
Ian ChristensenCertainly an unanswered question, but that was a clear, a clear kind of theme that, that, that, that came out. You know, I think we had a lot of talk about how you balance regulation, how you balance coordination. Yeah, you balance kind of open development in that in a growing economic sector. And that leads to a lot of the questions that that we still, I think, have opportunity to to explore both in our conversations.
(06:12):
Ian ChristensenBut in more, more importantly in the broader industry. Development. Yeah.
Nishan DegnarainYeah, yeah, I mean, this I mean, that's a great place just to start, if we start to reflect on some of the takeaways from some of our speakers, I think you're right. Yeah. Coordination was an important part of if I think there's about two speakers that Kevin from Dallas, for example, he talks about making sure that this coordination or even this participation, this should be from, all participants across the space value chain, including and uses.
(06:40):
Nishan DegnarainAnd I think often what we've seen is that, there's been a lot of focus on the producers of space, whether it's the rocket or satellite, but not as much focus on the end users. And if we are going to drive and pull adoption of space data or space technologies, whether in manufacturing or other uses of space, we need a greater place for end users.
(07:04):
Nishan DegnarainAlso just more innovative business models for these last mile solutions, like how do you, you know, deliver real value? How do you discover there may be some unknown unknowns here or some known unknowns? It can space data, I think is what Kevin is did with us in terms of using space data to develop wildfire insurance in sectors that had previously been underrepresented.
Nishan DegnarainIt's just a great example that there's there's a lot of value be left on the table, both for the producers of space data as a potential end uses, if we could join and match these together. So making sure that we are able to to have a place for end users to be part of the discussion and greater discovery of the uses of space, it all is is important.
(07:45):
Nishan DegnarainI then I mean, I think linking to that I think if you had a reflection that I remember, I mean, I remember bring us discussion from Clay and talking about, you know, combining some of these space technologies with adjacent feels like I, you know, and that could open up new tools and opportunities as well. Right? I had space.
(08:06):
Nishan DegnarainYeah, yeah. And so, so when you think about kind of. Yeah. Some of those takeaways. Yeah. Bruno talked about some of the governance challenges. Yeah. Even, you know, we may talk about an ethical use of, space technologies, but it's also the addressing. What is the ethical supply chain look like in terms of the AI models that's being used?
Nishan DegnarainA data sets that are being used? You know, a there's a trade off between the just pure market driven approach and regulatory approaches, but that yeah, that transparency and that trust throughout the space economy is going to be important. And so even we talk about coordination. Coordination may look very different. It may not look like the last 30 years of sitting around in the committee room in the UN type meeting, the corporate coordination, maybe things like open source data, maybe transparent model data, maybe just norms and cultures, that we set about in our place.
(08:56):
Nishan DegnarainBut that was one of the big takeaways that I took away from Bruno. I think Bruno's mission with Clay to democratize, again, empowering individuals to access both AI and data. It's going to open up, you know, revolutionary new, to the sectors, but at the same time to be a need to instill these sectors with a sense of responsibility.
Ian ChristensenSo I think one of the things that as you're going through what Bruno and, and Kevin talked about, right. One of the other themes that came out of this is transition. We're seeing that space is changing from this government driven market to one where we have a transition and then users and types of businesses involved. In parallel, that market transition is a governance transition, right?
(09:35):
Ian ChristensenWe've always kind of assume that the government, the government forms drive our coordination principles. And then maybe operated operators safety considerations also inform that. But as more end users come in, I think there's going to, you know, we have to look at what an end user push, if you will, for for coordination looks like and how those voices become part of the the stakeholder set that needs to be involved in governance or coordination conversations around, space data and access and use of space, applications.
(10:05):
Ian ChristensenAnd so that's a that's another level here that I think is, is going to become more important in some of our existing processes. Don't really account for that. Very well. Be those business processes or governance processes.
Miki SodeFor me, I always think about innovation and my favorite definition of innovation is the art of establishing something new or different in the real world. That has significant impact. And I think that, you know, space, technology and, you know, we have enough, power or tools to make an impact. But I think Kevin and Bruno, you know, with their effort, is like really pushing that and and giving like giving those, power to the end user so that it could, I think we could have the, a better business model, circular economy, going around space, enabled data services, technology, and products in the hands of people.
(11:17):
Miki SodeAnd then by doing so, you know, kind of, I think the instill the response responsibility, to keep that going to.
Nishan DegnarainYeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good point, because there are certain principles and yeah, big close to, to end users, let's say, the new generation of consumers, for example, who want to see principles of circular economy and circularity there, is going to be important. And I think, you know, Karen mentioned that, you know, from Aerospace Aerospace Corp, but she was in our podcast talking about there are things like the critical minerals supply chain, right, where we don't have a bad full access to certain mineral roles that play a critical role in, let's say, that the efficacy of solar power or, you know, laser communications in space.
(12:06):
Nishan DegnarainAnd so we need to be fairly conservative about how we use those resources. And, and that will open up business models. You know, she talked about whether we could create the Uber for satellites, where you have 1 or 2 providers, but in a place where we're starting to get concerned about the overcrowding in space in certain areas, you know, how do those new business models open up?
Nishan DegnarainNew new end users, new use cases reduce the cost. But also, Christy, kind of the the effectiveness of how we use that space region. So you're right. It may yeah. We may not use the language of ESG standards, but there may be certain principles like circular economy or kind of just some of the the economics of space sustainability that ensure that we are much better coordinated, in space to make sure that this, this, this is a domain that can benefit multiple generations forth.
(12:56):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. I well I think I was I, I building on that I mean that's these are to you know Kevin Bruno Karen were all talking at first about the from a private sector perspective. But then we, we then touch to the government domains right to, to his point earlier about like is this a new type of governance. And and we also see the evolution to Jonathan from say Singapore's National Space Office played a really interesting role.
(13:17):
Nishan DegnarainAustin. Austin. Where where we're looking at these new emerging, middle state middle space powers, right? We have the traditional embassies, Russia, obviously kind of the, the, Chinese space Agency. Jack said European Space Agency. But as we see more nations coming in, like the Singapores or the Saudi or the UAE models, you know, there's a question about, well, how do we think about the roles that they would want to play and rather give some really broader perspective about, as a smaller nation, the role of coordination communication is important.
(13:50):
Nishan DegnarainHow do you create the balance between, overregulation and Singapore, which is business friendly, attracting the right business models. And one of the big takeaways that, I took from our discussion, which I said was, do we have the right workforce ready? Yeah. He talked. Yeah. As you said, that attracts new businesses. He's also I try to identify what the needs of the future would look like.
(14:11):
Nishan DegnarainIt raises important question that I'll be you know, right now we're train scientists and engineers at space. But actually, do we do we have a pathway for space entrepreneurs, a space regulators, a space data of the future. And that's a topic that's very passionate to both of you. Yeah. Becky, in the workforce development.
Ian ChristensenYeah. I mean, I, you know, sit here as a, as a person with a policy background writing that found the way that to get involved in space and it's not, you know, it's not technical stuff is is clearly important. Engineering is color important. Science. Right. All of that, drives innovation in our sector. But, to really develop, we have to think about, I think the human capital of a more, holistic, holistic way.
(14:51):
Ian ChristensenAnd I think that's, Jonathan touched on and I think came up a couple of other interviews, but I think it's a really good theme, for right, for, for future exploration, no pun intended. As, as we go here.
Miki SodeYeah. I think we heard the same, message from Bill Diamond of Citi as well that, like, we need to, do more outreach and, workforce development or education because the sharing and understanding will lead to caring and responsibility to. So I think that, these are, strong threads for sure. Yeah.
(15:29):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. Bill is fascinating because he talked about this bigger mission, right? That, you know, space is not just a technical domain, but this is a field of about, you know, inspiration that sets a purpose, that service. You know, I will say that one takeaway that I had from all the interviewees that we had on the, on the, on the podcast is that they were all thinking about this bigger mission.
Nishan DegnarainThey wasn't thinking about their private a small interest. They were saying, this is something that's going to define civilization. It's going to define the next frontier, what it means to be human as a species. And so space is much bigger than any one individual. And they all recognize that they have a perspective that they all recognize that I think Bill talked about that in particular.
(16:06):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. For that Ceti mission that need to be inclusive, we mentioned said that, you know, even communities, contiguous communities and others who may not be spacefaring today but still care about space because the navigators of the past had used the stars as celestial guides to cross the oceans that a lot of, indigenous communities look at features in the sky for religious and important cultural, you know, parts of the calendars of festivals.
(16:34):
Nishan DegnarainAnd so that's going to be something for us to recognize and, and, and ensure that those viewpoints are reflected in how we use space for the benefit of all, of all, humanity.
Miki SodeYeah.
Ian ChristensenI think one other element that that kind of came out in some of our guests, is relating back to human capital and back to, you know, how we drive forward in this kind of exploration and inspirational purpose, the experience that we've already built up, and how we, how we use that to inform, inform where we go in the future.
(17:07):
Ian ChristensenSo I think Abby in particular, from, from Berkeley. Right. Talked a little bit about, you know, we should let the, the norms and our current, practice inform how we go. So we've learned a lot in Leo. What do we take from that to, build out, our cislunar activities and our space resources activities? He raised, I think, the idea of a learning period around human spaceflight.
(17:30):
Ian ChristensenRight. And so kind of the coming back to the coordination discussion, but but needing to, to build in that, that experience, I think we can look back and say that's technical experience, but it's also cultural experience. It's also, experience in business practices. Right? So just that, that non-technical element, as well. So that kind of an interesting, I think element that came from his is his guest appearance in.
(17:52):
Nishan DegnarainAnd I, we had that very interesting perspective that it's, you know, there's a spectrum on interventions. And part of this starts with, you know, just education and cultural norms, you know, almost like, yeah, like I said, ification or some sort of understanding about how we should be operating in space, grounded of business realities, grounded operator experience, you know, and then the spectrum before we need to regulate or coordinator.
(18:16):
Nishan DegnarainSo I think some of that is important as we start to recognize those who are participating in the, the space in space field. Yeah, I want to say on the other side of that, but just along that spectrum will be Sabrina's perspective at KPMG and who's had a deep, deep, involvement with the role of the European Union, where the EU has become a, regulatory force.
(18:37):
Nishan DegnarainImmediate domains like data, for example, with GDPR and regulation of ethical AI. And I try to play some, you know, a similar role in the space debate. And the EU is a big player. Luxembourg is a big attractor of, space based companies, the European Space Agency. And she's seeing this affect the entire lifecycle of, of space, you know, vehicle development by big producers like Airbus, for example.
(19:04):
Nishan DegnarainSo it's having real world impact, and, and maybe setting the setting an important benchmark, a data point for us to look at. I think the conception of sustainability by demand reporting frameworks, which we set standards. So it will be interesting to see the, the I'll be approached about. Well, with the, with the learning period. You know, what's a policy sandbox and the EU perspective talked to about Sabrina, which is like top down.
(19:29):
Nishan DegnarainAnd you know let's set some parameters up from that, see what evolves.
Miki SodeAnd James, to add it to that too, I think he had similar a point of view that maybe, EU, space law is coming, coming out soon. I think he was mentioning that that could be, could potentially create a resource effect of like the UN, of the great global space governance and that, you know, the EU could play, middle power to coordinate that, too.
(20:05):
Miki SodeI saw something like a similar like I associate that with the message. Jonathan had that to an on the pager side.
Nishan DegnarainYeah, yeah. I just I've formally been part of Inmarsat and the role that Inmarsat played, just in terms of safety, I see it, you know, delivering a mission that could not have been delivered by any other vehicle then through space. You know, if you the vessel for, you know, you're, you're literally in a life saving critical role.
(20:32):
Nishan DegnarainAnd that is the role that that Inmarsat played, which was a public slash private jet, a developed, interesting model. And he used the language of a trusted space economy. I think that's something as we reflected, yes. You know, language of vocabulary is a contested space right now. But I think what we are talking about is trusted. You know, trust is a really important parameter to trust.
(20:53):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, the positioning dynamics of where one vessel is to trust that there's going to be some sort of communication, to trust the processes and the teams that are out there with their from different cultures. And so, and that's suppose if private capital is going to exist, the billions of tens of billions of dollars needed in the space infrastructure trust is going to be foundational to how this sector is evolving to create a an orderly development of the sector.
(21:18):
Nishan DegnarainOtherwise, you'll get a development that we've seen in other industrial sectors that haven't been trust based and have led to, you know, not quite the same, outcomes that we would like to to have seen.
Ian ChristensenYeah, I like that that framing of trust. Right. Because it gets it. It's multi-level. So you gets to trust and and safety and coordination. Right. Which is a key theme that that came up. But it also gets to trust in outcomes. Right. So going back to Gratian and this is a broader community right. So yes we want to you know in the industry, you know, profit motivations and develop new economic opportunities.
(21:49):
Ian ChristensenBut it's also this domain that is a shared domain and a domain where we talk a lot about benefit for, for all right. And so trust comes back into into that as well. The trusted outcomes of activities. They can make it. You've from your design background we've talked about intersections and I don't know trust intersections comes up as well.
Ian ChristensenRight.
(22:10):
Miki SodeYeah. Yeah. And, I think the, the intersection of different, seemingly, opposing forces, but actually bridging that is, a great design opportunity. And I think from, from hearing all the speakers for this season, I felt that the, you know, when we were thinking about coordination, the adaptability, is important to incorporate into the design of the coordination and also with the sustainability in mind from early on.
(22:51):
Miki SodeRight. And then the intersection to bridge between, say, technology to, everyday life. Right. Like it seems again, like in a great example again, is, like a Bruno or Kevin where, like the technology is like used to the real examples of, like, wildfire protection or insurance, and also like some other tension bridging between tensions between global governance, local needs or the market forces versus sustainability goals.
(23:27):
Miki SodeI think there are, that's the area that requires lots of coordination. But also, with we need to approach with intention that we need to bridge that gap or else, you know, there will be a bridge like, Broken Link in that circularity too. So, yes.
(23:50):
Nishan DegnarainSo, so, so this is, this is this is interesting because, you know, through that throughout these eight episodes, I think there are some important takeaways, but there are also some unresolved questions, right. Which be great to explore as part of a a further series of with that podcast, the conversations engagement with with a broader audience as well.
Nishan DegnarainI mean I think yeah I agree like so some of the takeaways that this is an incredibly unique domain versus some of the other domains. It's a domain that's going to define, yeah, humanity. This inspiration point that you mentioned that Bill talked about as well, this is something bigger than any one individual, any one organization. We're creating the precedent for this.
(24:25):
Nishan DegnarainI be the first generation of stewards, if you like, of the space economy, that we're hopefully gonna see multiple generations and build on. What did this generation create as a as the first real stewards of a space faring nation, right, of this very civilization? I think, you know, part of that means that how do we build and develop the workforce of the future, you know, is it just going to be by accident, or is it going to be by design, by Ted?
(24:47):
Nishan DegnarainSo we do need to reflect on that, other adjacencies, you know, we talk about. Yes, yes. This there's there's, engineers and scientists rightly involved in discovering space, but the role of finance is going to be incredibly critical. We see this in other industries, whether it's actual investment capital or risk capital from an insurance perspective. So how do you bring these voices in and create more vibrant and appropriate financial product?
(25:11):
Nishan DegnarainAnd that also means, establishing linkages with different value systems over the shared space. You know, we have different, understanding of what a private sector enterprise means, the different business practices, different policy practices. And so we we're working with nations like, you know, China and Russia and India and Japan and the EU and the US and smaller nations.
(25:34):
Nishan DegnarainHow do we create that? We've had collaboration with International Space Station, which is, you know, being decommissioned. And so where where else are we going to start to create that collaboration of that left, that shared space? And, you know, Aspirationally. Yeah. Could we find ways that yeah, the space economy could be a force multiplier for global GDP. That could then be an aspiration in every nation that if 1% of the GDP can be powered by some sort of space economy data, right.
(25:59):
Nishan DegnarainDoes it mean the sort of having space force in every nation? I think yeah, that's a point that you make quite strongly. But using that data, how do we help lift the aspirations of a nation because they can identify wildfire, illegal fisheries, safety at sea, for example, there will be a range of other sectors like west space weather monitoring, for example.
Nishan DegnarainThat can all of a sudden enhance the GDP and that in itself attracts more capital investments and address. And, you know, the core of that is trust, right? I think those are some of the, the, the important takeaways that that I took away from this, this series.
(26:33):
Ian ChristensenYeah, I think I think you give us a good list of, areas that we can, you know, continue to discuss and explore and, in a future episode or feature conversations. And I would love, you know, was kind of the one of the partners of here. I would love to hear from the folks that that listen to these episodes.
Ian ChristensenYou know, are these themes that we're picking up here in this conversation? Are they resonating with you? Did you guys hear did you all hear other things in that? You know, where should we go in the future? Open up. This is a this is an open conversation.
(27:06):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. And so with that, yeah. Mickey, is there any final words, any questions you would like to see explored further? Anything you'd want from our, listeners or audience in terms of, feedback before we, we embark on a series of, questions and interviews.
Miki SodeYeah. Well, first of all, I had, so much fun doing this, podcast series about working with you all, so. And, I want to thank all the speakers who joined us this, season, and I also feel like, we just got started. I would love to continue the conversation. And like you said, I would love to hear from our audience.
(27:50):
Miki SodeYou know, some, other voices that you might want to hear or we should cover, I think, again, we meant this project and podcast to be a platform to bridge, the, I think the the gaps or the, you know, opportunities for everybody to participate, to make space. You know, vibrant and, accessible, beneficial to all for years to come, decades.
(28:23):
Miki SodeAnd it's, to come generations to come. So, yes, I would say let's keep the conversation going.
Nishan DegnarainSo with that, I'd like to echo the mic as well. It's been a pleasure. The joy. Yeah. Being a co-host with the mic, and partnering with yourself. And so thank you for being a wonderful partner. I think we've had a wonderful set of conversations, if you'd like. Like Vicky said, we'd like to thank all of our speakers have joined us.
(28:49):
Nishan DegnarainThis this season, has been a vibrant and, educational experience. And I'd also like to thank our audience, who I know have engaged with us on their social media platforms and direct feedback to us. And so we are very grateful for that interaction as a sign that, as Nikki said, we're the voice of discovery. We're still trying to understand what this domain could look like and how to succeed.
(29:12):
Nishan DegnarainAnd the only way we're going to do this is by advancing together and advancing our collective, knowledge together. And that is the intent of this, this, this podcast. And so with that from this season of ESG and space, maybe we'll be back with a different title. But, so something with trust in the, I'd like to to thank all of you.
Nishan DegnarainI hope you'll continue to engage with us. And we look forward to speaking with you all very soon. From Vicky myself. It is live for now.
(29:41):
Miki SodeThank you.
Nishan DegnarainHello everyone, and welcome to our concluding episode of this current season of ESG in space. My name is this Shadegg writer, one of the hosts of the podcast.
Miki SodeAnd I'm Miki Thursday. Thanks for joining us and thanks for sticking around for the whole season.
Nishan DegnarainIt's been fantastic. Having all of you join and having, Mickey as a co-host as we explore this fascinating topic of ESG and space and just a sense of context on the journey that we've we've, embarked upon. We started this podcast, almost two years ago, in a year and a half ago, around, November, October, November 2023 with a roundtable, at Wharton around the space economy.
(01:02):
Nishan DegnarainIt evolved into a series of white papers of discussions with a recognition that if the space economy is going to turn to a truly vibrant space economy, not one that is just solely government or military or scientific, kind of funded, it will need more institutional capital or private capital. But in order to do that, there are a couple of, supporting infrastructure scaffolding.
(01:26):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, at the time when we were, drafting and having discussions, ESG, environmental, social and governance was a really important vector through which a lot of capital, was flowing into different sectors. As we were looking at the transformation of the global economy to get more green, more sustainable, well, ethical, sectors. But what has happened since then is almost, I'm sure all of you know, is that with the US presidential election as being one of the, markers of this change, there's been a significant disruption in the language that's used.
(02:00):
Nishan DegnarainThe over the term ESG has become incredibly controversial. The policy direction of the public policy as well as, corporate policy, as I started evaluating, where some of these investments flow into that also, strategic decoupling for major nations and the use of space as well. And so it's been a very interesting time that as we we've launched this podcast, we've had a series of discussions in a very live and fast evolving and fast moving, field.
(02:29):
Nishan DegnarainBut I think one of the lessons that we've seen throughout has been, that there are still two big questions that remain, unanswered. You know, I think, number one, you know, how can we attract more institutional capital into the private space economy to grow the private base economy, to ensure that the basic kind of is an important economic driver of the global economy.
(02:52):
Nishan DegnarainAnd then, secondly, do we have the right institutional set up for this? Given what's happening in the world, how are we able to govern and channel, institutional capital in the right way? So there are important lessons from the aftermath. And, and, and some of our speakers touched on. So these, these topics. And so with that, maybe we should invite for a concluding episode, partner, on this journey Ian Christianson from Secure World Foundation and welcome.
(03:25):
Nishan DegnarainI mean, what are they? What are they? Some of your reflections on the podcast as you've listened to the episodes and be part of the original panel discussions and whitepapers and a support, of this project?
Ian ChristensenYeah. Thank you Mickey. Thank you, Sean, for, first off, for going through this, this journey, over these, eight episodes that, that we recorded. And I take the shot at you, nicely encapsulated some of the kind of the, key changes that we've seen in the, in the landscape over that, that period of time.
(03:54):
Ian ChristensenI think we all expected, you know, we were the innovative, fast moving industry, and we expected some change. I don't know that we expected the level of change, that we've seen. So I think that that does provide a, a nice lens to kind of look back and see, how some of the themes that, that, that were elucidated through our discussions, how those themes and, and topics still resonate and still have, relevance even in the midst of this, this disruption that you, that you mentioned.
(04:20):
Ian ChristensenSo, you know, starting from the ESG lens that we adopted in the title, and looking to to what that means in the current landscape, as I reflect and then listen to the episodes in as a, as an audience member, if you will. And kind of looking to learn myself, I hear a lot of talk about business continuity, you know, assurance of mission, safety, how we mitigate and manage risks.
(04:43):
Ian ChristensenAnd those sorts of, of frameworks, are still really relevant both to the, the operators and the folks doing the business. But but to the, the users and to the folks, providing financing and providing policy. So, you know, maybe we don't talk as much about about ESG as a lens, but some of the driving considerations, behind that, I also heard a lot of talk, about coordination.
(05:09):
Ian ChristensenRight. I think if you look back at the, eight guests we had, we had quite a good range of, of of perspectives and roles, that those guests had we have folks with kind of an operational, business background. We had folks on the end user side. We had folks, in advisory roles and reporting roles. Right.
Ian ChristensenA range of, you know, kind of, viewpoints on, on where they fall on the, on the spectrum of the importance of regulation. But I think every single one of them talked about that. We need, coordination at some level as, as we go through this transition and in the space economy. So I think, what that coordination looks like, how we operationalize it, how we develop it, what the roles of different stakeholders are in that coordination.
(05:51):
Ian ChristensenCertainly an unanswered question, but that was a clear, a clear kind of theme that, that, that, that came out. You know, I think we had a lot of talk about how you balance regulation, how you balance coordination. Yeah, you balance kind of open development in that in a growing economic sector. And that leads to a lot of the questions that that we still, I think, have opportunity to to explore both in our conversations.
(06:12):
Ian ChristensenBut in more, more importantly in the broader industry. Development. Yeah.
Nishan DegnarainYeah, yeah, I mean, this I mean, that's a great place just to start, if we start to reflect on some of the takeaways from some of our speakers, I think you're right. Yeah. Coordination was an important part of if I think there's about two speakers that Kevin from Dallas, for example, he talks about making sure that this coordination or even this participation, this should be from, all participants across the space value chain, including and uses.
(06:40):
Nishan DegnarainAnd I think often what we've seen is that, there's been a lot of focus on the producers of space, whether it's the rocket or satellite, but not as much focus on the end users. And if we are going to drive and pull adoption of space data or space technologies, whether in manufacturing or other uses of space, we need a greater place for end users.
(07:04):
Nishan DegnarainAlso just more innovative business models for these last mile solutions, like how do you, you know, deliver real value? How do you discover there may be some unknown unknowns here or some known unknowns? It can space data, I think is what Kevin is did with us in terms of using space data to develop wildfire insurance in sectors that had previously been underrepresented.
Nishan DegnarainIt's just a great example that there's there's a lot of value be left on the table, both for the producers of space data as a potential end uses, if we could join and match these together. So making sure that we are able to to have a place for end users to be part of the discussion and greater discovery of the uses of space, it all is is important.
(07:45):
Nishan DegnarainI then I mean, I think linking to that I think if you had a reflection that I remember, I mean, I remember bring us discussion from Clay and talking about, you know, combining some of these space technologies with adjacent feels like I, you know, and that could open up new tools and opportunities as well. Right? I had space.
(08:06):
Nishan DegnarainYeah, yeah. And so, so when you think about kind of. Yeah. Some of those takeaways. Yeah. Bruno talked about some of the governance challenges. Yeah. Even, you know, we may talk about an ethical use of, space technologies, but it's also the addressing. What is the ethical supply chain look like in terms of the AI models that's being used?
Nishan DegnarainA data sets that are being used? You know, a there's a trade off between the just pure market driven approach and regulatory approaches, but that yeah, that transparency and that trust throughout the space economy is going to be important. And so even we talk about coordination. Coordination may look very different. It may not look like the last 30 years of sitting around in the committee room in the UN type meeting, the corporate coordination, maybe things like open source data, maybe transparent model data, maybe just norms and cultures, that we set about in our place.
(08:56):
Nishan DegnarainBut that was one of the big takeaways that I took away from Bruno. I think Bruno's mission with Clay to democratize, again, empowering individuals to access both AI and data. It's going to open up, you know, revolutionary new, to the sectors, but at the same time to be a need to instill these sectors with a sense of responsibility.
Ian ChristensenSo I think one of the things that as you're going through what Bruno and, and Kevin talked about, right. One of the other themes that came out of this is transition. We're seeing that space is changing from this government driven market to one where we have a transition and then users and types of businesses involved. In parallel, that market transition is a governance transition, right?
(09:35):
Ian ChristensenWe've always kind of assume that the government, the government forms drive our coordination principles. And then maybe operated operators safety considerations also inform that. But as more end users come in, I think there's going to, you know, we have to look at what an end user push, if you will, for for coordination looks like and how those voices become part of the the stakeholder set that needs to be involved in governance or coordination conversations around, space data and access and use of space, applications.
(10:05):
Ian ChristensenAnd so that's a that's another level here that I think is, is going to become more important in some of our existing processes. Don't really account for that. Very well. Be those business processes or governance processes.
Miki SodeFor me, I always think about innovation and my favorite definition of innovation is the art of establishing something new or different in the real world. That has significant impact. And I think that, you know, space, technology and, you know, we have enough, power or tools to make an impact. But I think Kevin and Bruno, you know, with their effort, is like really pushing that and and giving like giving those, power to the end user so that it could, I think we could have the, a better business model, circular economy, going around space, enabled data services, technology, and products in the hands of people.
(11:17):
Miki SodeAnd then by doing so, you know, kind of, I think the instill the response responsibility, to keep that going to.
Nishan DegnarainYeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good point, because there are certain principles and yeah, big close to, to end users, let's say, the new generation of consumers, for example, who want to see principles of circular economy and circularity there, is going to be important. And I think, you know, Karen mentioned that, you know, from Aerospace Aerospace Corp, but she was in our podcast talking about there are things like the critical minerals supply chain, right, where we don't have a bad full access to certain mineral roles that play a critical role in, let's say, that the efficacy of solar power or, you know, laser communications in space.
(12:06):
Nishan DegnarainAnd so we need to be fairly conservative about how we use those resources. And, and that will open up business models. You know, she talked about whether we could create the Uber for satellites, where you have 1 or 2 providers, but in a place where we're starting to get concerned about the overcrowding in space in certain areas, you know, how do those new business models open up?
Nishan DegnarainNew new end users, new use cases reduce the cost. But also, Christy, kind of the the effectiveness of how we use that space region. So you're right. It may yeah. We may not use the language of ESG standards, but there may be certain principles like circular economy or kind of just some of the the economics of space sustainability that ensure that we are much better coordinated, in space to make sure that this, this, this is a domain that can benefit multiple generations forth.
(12:56):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. I well I think I was I, I building on that I mean that's these are to you know Kevin Bruno Karen were all talking at first about the from a private sector perspective. But then we, we then touch to the government domains right to, to his point earlier about like is this a new type of governance. And and we also see the evolution to Jonathan from say Singapore's National Space Office played a really interesting role.
(13:17):
Nishan DegnarainAustin. Austin. Where where we're looking at these new emerging, middle state middle space powers, right? We have the traditional embassies, Russia, obviously kind of the, the, Chinese space Agency. Jack said European Space Agency. But as we see more nations coming in, like the Singapores or the Saudi or the UAE models, you know, there's a question about, well, how do we think about the roles that they would want to play and rather give some really broader perspective about, as a smaller nation, the role of coordination communication is important.
(13:50):
Nishan DegnarainHow do you create the balance between, overregulation and Singapore, which is business friendly, attracting the right business models. And one of the big takeaways that, I took from our discussion, which I said was, do we have the right workforce ready? Yeah. He talked. Yeah. As you said, that attracts new businesses. He's also I try to identify what the needs of the future would look like.
(14:11):
Nishan DegnarainIt raises important question that I'll be you know, right now we're train scientists and engineers at space. But actually, do we do we have a pathway for space entrepreneurs, a space regulators, a space data of the future. And that's a topic that's very passionate to both of you. Yeah. Becky, in the workforce development.
Ian ChristensenYeah. I mean, I, you know, sit here as a, as a person with a policy background writing that found the way that to get involved in space and it's not, you know, it's not technical stuff is is clearly important. Engineering is color important. Science. Right. All of that, drives innovation in our sector. But, to really develop, we have to think about, I think the human capital of a more, holistic, holistic way.
(14:51):
Ian ChristensenAnd I think that's, Jonathan touched on and I think came up a couple of other interviews, but I think it's a really good theme, for right, for, for future exploration, no pun intended. As, as we go here.
Miki SodeYeah. I think we heard the same, message from Bill Diamond of Citi as well that, like, we need to, do more outreach and, workforce development or education because the sharing and understanding will lead to caring and responsibility to. So I think that, these are, strong threads for sure. Yeah.
(15:29):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. Bill is fascinating because he talked about this bigger mission, right? That, you know, space is not just a technical domain, but this is a field of about, you know, inspiration that sets a purpose, that service. You know, I will say that one takeaway that I had from all the interviewees that we had on the, on the, on the podcast is that they were all thinking about this bigger mission.
Nishan DegnarainThey wasn't thinking about their private a small interest. They were saying, this is something that's going to define civilization. It's going to define the next frontier, what it means to be human as a species. And so space is much bigger than any one individual. And they all recognize that they have a perspective that they all recognize that I think Bill talked about that in particular.
(16:06):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. For that Ceti mission that need to be inclusive, we mentioned said that, you know, even communities, contiguous communities and others who may not be spacefaring today but still care about space because the navigators of the past had used the stars as celestial guides to cross the oceans that a lot of, indigenous communities look at features in the sky for religious and important cultural, you know, parts of the calendars of festivals.
(16:34):
Nishan DegnarainAnd so that's going to be something for us to recognize and, and, and ensure that those viewpoints are reflected in how we use space for the benefit of all, of all, humanity.
Miki SodeYeah.
Ian ChristensenI think one other element that that kind of came out in some of our guests, is relating back to human capital and back to, you know, how we drive forward in this kind of exploration and inspirational purpose, the experience that we've already built up, and how we, how we use that to inform, inform where we go in the future.
(17:07):
Ian ChristensenSo I think Abby in particular, from, from Berkeley. Right. Talked a little bit about, you know, we should let the, the norms and our current, practice inform how we go. So we've learned a lot in Leo. What do we take from that to, build out, our cislunar activities and our space resources activities? He raised, I think, the idea of a learning period around human spaceflight.
(17:30):
Ian ChristensenRight. And so kind of the coming back to the coordination discussion, but but needing to, to build in that, that experience, I think we can look back and say that's technical experience, but it's also cultural experience. It's also, experience in business practices. Right? So just that, that non-technical element, as well. So that kind of an interesting, I think element that came from his is his guest appearance in.
(17:52):
Nishan DegnarainAnd I, we had that very interesting perspective that it's, you know, there's a spectrum on interventions. And part of this starts with, you know, just education and cultural norms, you know, almost like, yeah, like I said, ification or some sort of understanding about how we should be operating in space, grounded of business realities, grounded operator experience, you know, and then the spectrum before we need to regulate or coordinator.
(18:16):
Nishan DegnarainSo I think some of that is important as we start to recognize those who are participating in the, the space in space field. Yeah, I want to say on the other side of that, but just along that spectrum will be Sabrina's perspective at KPMG and who's had a deep, deep, involvement with the role of the European Union, where the EU has become a, regulatory force.
(18:37):
Nishan DegnarainImmediate domains like data, for example, with GDPR and regulation of ethical AI. And I try to play some, you know, a similar role in the space debate. And the EU is a big player. Luxembourg is a big attractor of, space based companies, the European Space Agency. And she's seeing this affect the entire lifecycle of, of space, you know, vehicle development by big producers like Airbus, for example.
(19:04):
Nishan DegnarainSo it's having real world impact, and, and maybe setting the setting an important benchmark, a data point for us to look at. I think the conception of sustainability by demand reporting frameworks, which we set standards. So it will be interesting to see the, the I'll be approached about. Well, with the, with the learning period. You know, what's a policy sandbox and the EU perspective talked to about Sabrina, which is like top down.
(19:29):
Nishan DegnarainAnd you know let's set some parameters up from that, see what evolves.
Miki SodeAnd James, to add it to that too, I think he had similar a point of view that maybe, EU, space law is coming, coming out soon. I think he was mentioning that that could be, could potentially create a resource effect of like the UN, of the great global space governance and that, you know, the EU could play, middle power to coordinate that, too.
(20:05):
Miki SodeI saw something like a similar like I associate that with the message. Jonathan had that to an on the pager side.
Nishan DegnarainYeah, yeah. I just I've formally been part of Inmarsat and the role that Inmarsat played, just in terms of safety, I see it, you know, delivering a mission that could not have been delivered by any other vehicle then through space. You know, if you the vessel for, you know, you're, you're literally in a life saving critical role.
(20:32):
Nishan DegnarainAnd that is the role that that Inmarsat played, which was a public slash private jet, a developed, interesting model. And he used the language of a trusted space economy. I think that's something as we reflected, yes. You know, language of vocabulary is a contested space right now. But I think what we are talking about is trusted. You know, trust is a really important parameter to trust.
(20:53):
Nishan DegnarainYou know, the positioning dynamics of where one vessel is to trust that there's going to be some sort of communication, to trust the processes and the teams that are out there with their from different cultures. And so, and that's suppose if private capital is going to exist, the billions of tens of billions of dollars needed in the space infrastructure trust is going to be foundational to how this sector is evolving to create a an orderly development of the sector.
(21:18):
Nishan DegnarainOtherwise, you'll get a development that we've seen in other industrial sectors that haven't been trust based and have led to, you know, not quite the same, outcomes that we would like to to have seen.
Ian ChristensenYeah, I like that that framing of trust. Right. Because it gets it. It's multi-level. So you gets to trust and and safety and coordination. Right. Which is a key theme that that came up. But it also gets to trust in outcomes. Right. So going back to Gratian and this is a broader community right. So yes we want to you know in the industry, you know, profit motivations and develop new economic opportunities.
(21:49):
Ian ChristensenBut it's also this domain that is a shared domain and a domain where we talk a lot about benefit for, for all right. And so trust comes back into into that as well. The trusted outcomes of activities. They can make it. You've from your design background we've talked about intersections and I don't know trust intersections comes up as well.
Ian ChristensenRight.
(22:10):
Miki SodeYeah. Yeah. And, I think the, the intersection of different, seemingly, opposing forces, but actually bridging that is, a great design opportunity. And I think from, from hearing all the speakers for this season, I felt that the, you know, when we were thinking about coordination, the adaptability, is important to incorporate into the design of the coordination and also with the sustainability in mind from early on.
(22:51):
Miki SodeRight. And then the intersection to bridge between, say, technology to, everyday life. Right. Like it seems again, like in a great example again, is, like a Bruno or Kevin where, like the technology is like used to the real examples of, like, wildfire protection or insurance, and also like some other tension bridging between tensions between global governance, local needs or the market forces versus sustainability goals.
(23:27):
Miki SodeI think there are, that's the area that requires lots of coordination. But also, with we need to approach with intention that we need to bridge that gap or else, you know, there will be a bridge like, Broken Link in that circularity too. So, yes.
(23:50):
Nishan DegnarainSo, so, so this is, this is this is interesting because, you know, through that throughout these eight episodes, I think there are some important takeaways, but there are also some unresolved questions, right. Which be great to explore as part of a a further series of with that podcast, the conversations engagement with with a broader audience as well.
Nishan DegnarainI mean I think yeah I agree like so some of the takeaways that this is an incredibly unique domain versus some of the other domains. It's a domain that's going to define, yeah, humanity. This inspiration point that you mentioned that Bill talked about as well, this is something bigger than any one individual, any one organization. We're creating the precedent for this.
(24:25):
Nishan DegnarainI be the first generation of stewards, if you like, of the space economy, that we're hopefully gonna see multiple generations and build on. What did this generation create as a as the first real stewards of a space faring nation, right, of this very civilization? I think, you know, part of that means that how do we build and develop the workforce of the future, you know, is it just going to be by accident, or is it going to be by design, by Ted?
(24:47):
Nishan DegnarainSo we do need to reflect on that, other adjacencies, you know, we talk about. Yes, yes. This there's there's, engineers and scientists rightly involved in discovering space, but the role of finance is going to be incredibly critical. We see this in other industries, whether it's actual investment capital or risk capital from an insurance perspective. So how do you bring these voices in and create more vibrant and appropriate financial product?
(25:11):
Nishan DegnarainAnd that also means, establishing linkages with different value systems over the shared space. You know, we have different, understanding of what a private sector enterprise means, the different business practices, different policy practices. And so we we're working with nations like, you know, China and Russia and India and Japan and the EU and the US and smaller nations.
(25:34):
Nishan DegnarainHow do we create that? We've had collaboration with International Space Station, which is, you know, being decommissioned. And so where where else are we going to start to create that collaboration of that left, that shared space? And, you know, Aspirationally. Yeah. Could we find ways that yeah, the space economy could be a force multiplier for global GDP. That could then be an aspiration in every nation that if 1% of the GDP can be powered by some sort of space economy data, right.
(25:59):
Nishan DegnarainDoes it mean the sort of having space force in every nation? I think yeah, that's a point that you make quite strongly. But using that data, how do we help lift the aspirations of a nation because they can identify wildfire, illegal fisheries, safety at sea, for example, there will be a range of other sectors like west space weather monitoring, for example.
Nishan DegnarainThat can all of a sudden enhance the GDP and that in itself attracts more capital investments and address. And, you know, the core of that is trust, right? I think those are some of the, the, the important takeaways that that I took away from this, this series.
(26:33):
Ian ChristensenYeah, I think I think you give us a good list of, areas that we can, you know, continue to discuss and explore and, in a future episode or feature conversations. And I would love, you know, was kind of the one of the partners of here. I would love to hear from the folks that that listen to these episodes.
Ian ChristensenYou know, are these themes that we're picking up here in this conversation? Are they resonating with you? Did you guys hear did you all hear other things in that? You know, where should we go in the future? Open up. This is a this is an open conversation.
(27:06):
Nishan DegnarainYeah. And so with that, yeah. Mickey, is there any final words, any questions you would like to see explored further? Anything you'd want from our, listeners or audience in terms of, feedback before we, we embark on a series of, questions and interviews.
Miki SodeYeah. Well, first of all, I had, so much fun doing this, podcast series about working with you all, so. And, I want to thank all the speakers who joined us this, season, and I also feel like, we just got started. I would love to continue the conversation. And like you said, I would love to hear from our audience.
(27:50):
Miki SodeYou know, some, other voices that you might want to hear or we should cover, I think, again, we meant this project and podcast to be a platform to bridge, the, I think the the gaps or the, you know, opportunities for everybody to participate, to make space. You know, vibrant and, accessible, beneficial to all for years to come, decades.
(28:23):
Miki SodeAnd it's, to come generations to come. So, yes, I would say let's keep the conversation going.
Nishan DegnarainSo with that, I'd like to echo the mic as well. It's been a pleasure. The joy. Yeah. Being a co-host with the mic, and partnering with yourself. And so thank you for being a wonderful partner. I think we've had a wonderful set of conversations, if you'd like. Like Vicky said, we'd like to thank all of our speakers have joined us.
(28:49):
Nishan DegnarainThis this season, has been a vibrant and, educational experience. And I'd also like to thank our audience, who I know have engaged with us on their social media platforms and direct feedback to us. And so we are very grateful for that interaction as a sign that, as Nikki said, we're the voice of discovery. We're still trying to understand what this domain could look like and how to succeed.
(29:12):
Nishan DegnarainAnd the only way we're going to do this is by advancing together and advancing our collective, knowledge together. And that is the intent of this, this, this podcast. And so with that from this season of ESG and space, maybe we'll be back with a different title. But, so something with trust in the, I'd like to to thank all of you.
Nishan DegnarainI hope you'll continue to engage with us. And we look forward to speaking with you all very soon. From Vicky myself. It is live for now.
(29:41):
Miki SodeThank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.