May 20, 2025 • 37 mins
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Leadership style significantly impacts athletic performance, with research showing better injury rates and attendance when coaches foster positive environments and clear communication.
• Life stress and physical recovery draw from the same biological resources
• Studies show students with higher life stress levels take longer to recover from workouts
• Injury risk increases during exam periods when students experience elevated stress
• Coaches who create open dialogue environments build trust with their athletes
• Successful programs focus on caring about people first, then establishing shared missions
• Being authentic as a coach builds credibility with athletes
• Different coaching personalities can be effective, but shared values and ethics matter most
• Research confirms transformative coaching styles correlate with fewer injuries than authoritarian approaches
• Leading by example remains one of the most powerful coaching tools
• Open-minded coaches willing to learn new approaches model growth mindset for athletes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
every day.
You essentially pay your duesby doing the harder thing when
it's the right thing to do.
We welcome dogs on this podcast.
We're a dog adventure.
I feel like post post pandemic,zoom etiquette has become so
different.
Like we'll do the podcast andlenny's daughter will just like
show up in the frame and givehim a hug and like just sit on
his lap and like.
(00:26):
I've taken meetings wherepeople like one sec, I gotta
like, yeah, get my dog out of.
Like my daughter's going crazy.
My god, I don't care that, onlypost pandemic that we have
crazy zoom etiquette.
What was the?
Wasn't there a viral clip oflike a very professional
business dude on nbc and his kidcomes in the back and starts
raging?
I think I remember that hecomes and starts going crazy on
air and like national television, yeah, hilarious.
(00:47):
Um.
Okay, last two weeks been longtwo weeks grinding, you know no.
So the first four, I think yeah, are like very hard science
type stuff we talk about likeworkloads and stuff like that.
But this um to set the stagefor how these come together is I
oftentimes have things I'mworking on or thinking through
(01:07):
in the moment and I write lotsof notes down and then I sit
down for a half hour of a coffeeand in this Google doc that we
have, I like put my thoughtstogether.
It's how I learn, that's how Ilike.
That's actually how shiftstarted was blog posts, because
I was trying to organize mythoughts.
So this, this spark, came fromthe last month of the podcast to
now is like April, may, and Ihave just been the busiest I've
(01:27):
ever been in the clinic withinjuries, consulting stuff like
helping kids get to state,regionals, nationals have a lot
of backend consulting workthat's been going on with like
college programs asking for help, like strength coaches will
reach out to me.
I thought a trainer who reachedout to me and said, like this
is an injury that's person'sdealing with, a lot of coaches
will reach out to me.
(01:48):
I thought a trainer who reachedout to me and said, like this
is an injury that's person'sdealing with, um, a lot of
coaches will reach out like midseason and like check up on
plans or like I'll do consultingwork, uh, that goes into the
summer and so every year, uh,every other year, I give a
lecture to all the collegecoaches about, like some sort of
thing that's going on.
Last year it was the workloadpaper we'd talked about, uh, in
the first episode, no-transcript, this meet.
(02:30):
We didn't get a score we wanted.
Our depth of our lineup kind offell apart.
You know we're frustrated with,like people's motivation levels
.
The coaching staff feels a bitlike uh, at ends with the
athletes or injuries.
People like, yeah, we had, likeyou know, one year
unfortunately, like a programhad three, eight, two or three
ac tears or two or threeAchilles tears or you know half
their lineup was hurt and didn'treally have a competitive field
.
And they reach out to me aboutlike can you look at our program
(02:51):
and help give thoughts?
And I'm flattered by that.
But I oftentimes will spend likean hour with their strength
staff and then an hour withtheir medical staff and then an
hour with the coaches and thenan hour with their athletes and
every.
The message to those people isvery different.
Right, like for the science,the strength conditioning people
, it's more of like thetraditional snc conversation
that happens to have a tint ofgymnastics.
(03:12):
The medical side is very muchbased on injuries, surgeries,
rehab.
You know what are we doing fortesting and like what's all of
our kind of like dorky stuff?
How do we rehab people?
How do we manage people inseason?
The coaches side is almostalways around structuring the
season for like workloads andstrength conditioning and
ramping things up appropriately,working with the other staff
members to have them have thesame message, but also work with
(03:35):
strength coaches and medical.
And then when I talk to theathletes, it's more so about
like how to not fall apart inseason.
Like what is their role onrecovery, on, you know, taking
care of themselves, on, you knowjust calling it what it is like
, you know not drinking and notgoing out too late, not staying
up and, you know, being dead forpractice, you know it's like
the conversation around thescience of like sleeping and
taking care of yourself andstress management.
(03:55):
So, yeah, that is.
I don't talk about my consultingwork cause I try to keep it, uh
, anonymity, but like that'sessentially what I do a lot of
each year around this time islike chatting with these people,
and so this thought processcame up of seeing the last month
of college season and clubseason kind of like play out and
seeing some in a positive light.
(04:15):
Seeing some gyms that justdominate man, like every year
they have five, 10, 15 girls,you know, going to nationals and
then you see teams that areconsistently dancing in the top
20.
They're doing really well andmaybe it's not like getting to
you know regionals or nationals,it's like they're competitive.
They're doing well.
Their kids are healthy.
They're having a good season.
Everyone has a good experience.
The coaches seem like they'rehaving a great time.
There's not like scandals everytwo seconds or whatever.
(04:37):
So, yeah, this is just whereany thoughts from the get on
this.
Aliyah, I feel like I didn'ttalk to you about this one
before because it was kind ofmore the backend work of my life
.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's just, it's a we.
I mean we were both in collegebefore.
It's a lot of balance.
And so trying to balanceeverything all at the same time,
where you're in college and youknow you want to have fun but
you're trying to figure out whatyou're going to do for your job
, like there's just a lot goingon.
And so I think, when we get downto, like talking about a lot of
this and the culture thatsupports you, know, taking care
of yourself mentally andphysically and making sure that
you are well when you're doingall of this high level like
(05:16):
activity and sports activity isreally really important.
And so, while that might varyperson to person, like the
overall arching theme of makingsure that you are doing the
things that you need to do tosupport yourself from, like a
mental wellness standpoint, isreally really important.
And the people, like I thinksometimes when we're looking at
these athletes, we see them asthese really high level athletes
(05:37):
, which they are, but we alsosometimes forget that they're
they're young kids still.
Like they're young adults, likethey're some of these freshmen
are only 18.
Like they still need supportfrom their staff to make sure
that they're, you know doing allthe things that they need to do
, from not only a physicalstandpoint, but from a mental
standpoint too.
So the more support that theycan get from like the leadership
around them, who are their rolemodels actively at that time
(05:59):
because they're away from homemost likely is really really
important.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, I was trying to panic and pull up this.
Um, there's two like reallycool studies.
One I don't I don't have on myfingertips right now, but it
essentially shows that aroundexam periods, uh, injury risk
goes up Right and there's like athere's a so many factors that
could be that, like we're notsleeping as well, we're not
taking care of ourselvesschedule wise, so we're more
tired, we have an overuse injuryrisk.
That's for sure part of it.
It could be that, unfortunately, the stress of exams and what
(06:26):
that requires of them makes them, you know, not be able to
handle the entire kind of likeworkload well.
But I gave a lecture to acouple teams last year and like
one of the craziest things Iremember talking about these two
studies that essentially showedin a nutshell one was a human
trial, one was a rat trial.
Biological validity wasessentially just they showed
that life stress makes you notrecover from exercise as well,
(06:48):
and this is one of them andthat's essentially was showing
that the study was crazy.
I think it's from yale they didit for, but essentially they
did, um, they had people take aquestionnaire that was like how,
how many life stressors do youhave?
Family friends, uh, personalstuff financial, uh, academic
and something and they likerated somebody like on like
global life stress scale.
They took these people and theymade them do like one of the
(07:10):
most horrific eccentric legsquat presses you know circuits
you can imagine.
I think it was like seven setsto failure of like slow
eccentric quads.
Essentially, it was like we'regoing to make you have the worst
doms you've ever felt in yourlife.
And then they measured how manydays it took them to recover
fully from their DOMS and theyshowed that there was a really
good correlation between thosewith more stress in their life
(07:31):
and less recovery and inabilityto recover.
So if you had more lifestressors, it took you longer to
recover physically fromexercise really hard exercise
versus those that didn't have asmuch life stressors, you know
recovered a bit faster.
And that kind of correlates tothe exam, one which is like
maybe you're you don't sleep aswell when you have like drama in
your life and you're arguingwith somebody, or maybe you have
(07:52):
too much academic stress,you're staying up too late,
you're studying, you're nottaking care of your nutrition,
your schedule is off and youcan't really take care of your
health or whatever.
You don't have time to break.
And then the parallel study forthis two years later was they
did the exact same thing withrats.
So they had the rats do astress water test where they
would swim them.
It's pretty cruel, but theywould swim them around and make
them really stressed out fromnot being able to get on the
(08:12):
platform in a water and itdrives up their cortisol levels
and their stress hormone.
And then they have them do.
They simulate eccentric calfwork on a rat?
I don't know how you do this.
You put them in a belt and youlike make them do calf raises
until their their leg stopsworking and they would measure.
They would measure howsensitive their calf muscles
were by touching the calf andseeing if they have a withdrawal
reflex in the rat.
Excuse my french fucking wildstudy, bro, by the way, with
(08:35):
this poor lab tech person doingrat specifics.
But so essentially theysimulated the stress of life,
the calf thing, and then theywould uh test how long it would
take the calf muscle of a rat torecover from doms and then they
would cross section the brainof the rat to look at, like,
what was different between therats that didn't or did do the
stress test and they'veessentially found that, like the
chemical stress markers ofphysical exercise are in the
(08:58):
same bucket as mental exercise.
So when you have high lifestress, you are tapping from
some of the same resources thatyour body needs to physically
recover from exercise.
So cortisol, adrenal hormonestress, like that's a, that's
not a net zero.
You don't have unlimited supplyof your adrenal cortex, your
adrenal glands, your cortisol,all that kind of stuff.
But that was like the validitybiological study related to
(09:19):
humans who have stressful lives.
Maybe sleep, nutrition factors,whatever is, is pulling from
same bucket and they're not ableto recover from physical
exercise.
Long winded answer.
What does that mean?
It means that if you have verystressed out, overworked student
athletes or high schoolers andyou're burying them in hard
gymnastics training and thenasking them to compete on the
(09:40):
weekends, it doesn't, it's notgoing to go well If you don't
have some sort of culture orleadership model where people
are uh, openly talking aboutthings, they're, stressing them
out, they're, they're havingresources available to them.
You're, you're giving andtaking some of the assignments
when someone needs help or isalways buried or not Like.
These people are not machines.
You are not a machine as acoach.
(10:01):
You know you're not a machine.
As an athlete, you need to havethis kind of waving, you know,
balance of on and off, on andoff sympathetic, parasympathetic
, to give yourself body.
You give your body time torecover and handle and adapt to
some of the stresses.
So, yeah, I just think, likewhen I find studies like these
two from Yale, that injury riskone, and like some of this other
leadership study we'll talkabout in a minute, I've just,
(10:21):
I'm just taken aback at howsometimes I think we lose the
forest for the trees, so tospeak, is that you only focus on
the gymnastics, the competition.
You should be able to hit thisroutine right now, be a gamer,
turn it on.
You take a big step back.
This person's like studyingengineering and they're they're
trying to be a good, like youknow, friend.
They have a boyfriend or agirlfriend.
(10:43):
They're trying to are stressful.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, I agree completely.
There's just a lot going on.
I think we really need to begood about meeting the athlete
wherever they are in that dayand not expecting them Like some
days they might be able to hit,you know, five routines in a
row stuck, but other days likeif they're going through all
this extra stress, like they maynot be able to hit a routine
and being able to have an opendialogue from, like, your coach
or your whoever you're workingwith that day, being able to
(11:09):
have the trust to have an opendialogue with them about where
they're at and what's going on,and being able to be vulnerable
with the stresses that they'redealing with, can help, I think,
tremendously.
And I think that's reallyimportant in a culture where
you're you know they're doinghigh level skills that can
seriously injure them, and ifyou don't have the ability to
have an open dialogue with thatkid about what they're going
(11:30):
through and whether or not theytruly need, like, a break that
day or they need to modify theactivity that they're doing in
some way because of whatever'sgoing on, like if they're not,
and then they end up with aninjury that could be career
changing, an injury that's couldbe career changing I mean
that's huge.
So when you think about it thatway versus, you know, just
thinking about, oh, like theyshould be able to hit these
skills every single day, all thetime, no matter what's going on
(11:51):
, like that makes them tough,like that's not really the
question we're looking at.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I've talked about this in other podcasts, but I
think sometimes we haveunrealistic expectations of
athletes, of what we think theyshould be able to do.
Like it's it's rare, thankfully, more so than others.
But like I remember five yearsago, I would talk to some
coaches that literally, I think,expected them to be never tired
, never get hurt, always hittheir skills, show up, work hard
, never sacrifice for familycommitments, no vacations.
(12:15):
Like you're here, you're on allthe time.
I'm like what world do you livein, bro?
Like what world do you live in?
We're like this person's nevertired, never hurt, never has
anything wrong, no mental blocks, they're always ready, they do
whatever you ask all the time.
Like that's just not, that'snot realistic.
And uh, I think in terms oflike other resources that are
helpful for people like, um,we've done podcasts.
So, like on the club level, uh,who is it?
(12:36):
Brett Wargo and Sarah Korngoldhave really good podcasts on
this discussion around likegiving and taking and like you
know, one day as you pull back,one day as you push harder.
Nick erotic obviously has someamazing podcasts we've done on
the elite side of things.
And then Brett from Marylandhas an episode where he talks a
lot about this, about.
Like you know, student athletesare dynamic, evolving beasts and
they have a lot of things goingon in their life and you have
(12:56):
to be willing to be malleablewith their assignments and with
their expectations and have aculture that supports open
communication which allows forthe deal with the real shit.
You know, like if you don'tdeal with the real issues and
the root level stuff, I don'tknow.
I can only describe it as likewhen you're in a group of people
who feel like they're all justlike blowing smoke, you can feel
(13:16):
the fakeness in the air.
You can feel like the likewe're not talking about real
problems.
We're all propping each otherup Like there's an elephant in
the room.
It's something going on youhave to address and, in my
opinion, from my outside,looking in, when I work with
programs of collegeinternational here in the States
or whatever, or uh across thepond, um, it always comes back
(13:39):
to like well, do you have aculture that supports?
Like you care about people?
You care about the people thatare in front of you, that happen
to do gymnastics or happen tocoach, or happen to be a PT or
happen to be a strength coach?
Do you care about the people inyour program that you want to
see them do?
Well?
And if that is the first step,the next piece is like okay, do
you have a stated, like, sharedmission?
Like, do you guys all want towork towards the same goal?
(14:01):
Have you talked about themission?
Have you talked about the goal?
And only when you have like thehuman layer of you care about
people you want to do well, thenthere's like something you're
anchoring yourself in for, likea common goal, a common mission.
Then you get to the level oflike okay, we have the
environment to be honest witheach other.
(14:21):
We have the ability to say ourmind respectfully and honestly
when problems come up.
We I can say I'm feeling kindof sick, I have a physics test
on Friday.
I don't think I can do a meatrun through.
Can I please come in and do itthe next day?
Right, like that can onlyhappen.
At the honest.
We're actually dealing with thelevel we care about if the two
first things are in peace, andso I'm not sure if that mental
framework makes sense.
But that's how I view it when Italk to people.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, no, I agree completely.
And being able to be malle good, they're tired.
Whatever it was the nightbefore they come in, they're
probably not going to do a greatroutine.
So, if they're, if you'reflexible with them and you're
like, okay, we're not doing ittoday, we'll do it the next day,
it's probably going to be morebeneficial for everyone.
Everyone's going to feel alittle bit better about it.
The routine is probably goingto look better, feel better.
It's just not as productive ifyou're, you know, kind of
(15:08):
wasting your time.
If you're like exhausted andyou're trying to like push
through a routine, like there'sone thing where you know there
are times when people need to bepushed, like you know they're
tired, whatever it is, there aretimes when they're.
That's where open dialoguecomes in, cause there's times to
push and there's times that,okay, maybe that's not like the
best choice for us.
So, being able to have like anopen, vulnerable conversation
(15:28):
with your coach and with the kidand trying to figure out, you
know, what do we need to do here, like what's the best option
for us?
Is it to back off today, or oris this something we just need?
We need to talk about it, weneed to get it out on the table
and then we need to push through.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I think it goes back to,like you know the want to place
at regionals and make it tonationals.
Like if that's your goal, likethat shit's hard bro, like
you're going to need to workhard for it.
And so in the preseason youhave to openly say, like okay,
this is our goal.
Do we all collectively agree?
(16:01):
Like this is what we want as ateam.
And if you don't want that goal, then like that's okay.
But like we, we are going tofigure this out in a way to move
in the right direction.
Once you have that and you youinvolve athletes in the plan at
high school and college andelite or whatever.
Like okay, this is why I thinkwe should have these three
(16:23):
really hard weeks.
Then we'll deload for a week.
You know we're going to do tworeally hard strength
conditioning days and I promiseyou that the last thing you're
going to want to do is wake upat six and go to the weight room
and do these two days of weighttraining and then have to go to
class.
Like it's going to be hard.
But like we, we all agree weneed this to be better, right,
and so like you have that anchorand then when you're able to
use those moments of like.
(16:44):
I know it's hard now, but thisisn't the plan.
This is part of the plan.
We plan this together for areason.
There's good science behindthis.
It's easier to you bank trustwith athletes, you bank trust
with people when you have a planand you stick to it and you're
constantly involving them in theprocess.
They feel as though they'repart of it, not just like the
receiving end of instructions.
Um, and I think that's really aquality of something I see in
(17:04):
high level programs and coachesis they have that ongoing
fluidity.
This is the plan.
This is why we're doing it.
Let's explain it to you.
I know it's hard, but like we'rein this together, like I'm
going to be in here too, I'mgoing to you know I'm going to
(17:25):
come with you in the morning inthe weight room and I'm going to
show up and make sure it'sgoing well.
You don't do what you say you'regoing to do and you don't lead
by positive example.
All your talk goes out thewindow, like I promise you that.
Like if you tell athletes towake up early and go do weights
and then go train really hardand you're like eating junk food
and not working out yourselfand sitting on a block barking
(17:45):
orders, like it's like, likeit's just a road, it's like dust
, like well, who are you to saythat?
Like, you know we should lead ahealthy lifestyle and you know,
eat really well and not go outand not drink for the whole
season, but you're just likeliterally like destroying
yourself as a positive example,right, and the opposite is true.
If you, if you take care ofyourself and you hustle and like
jump into conditioning andgrind with them a little bit,
like it builds example.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Definitely, I agree.
Yeah, like in both worlds andcoaching and in PT, I mean you
should be able to demonstrate,you know, the same exercises
that you're asking them to do,like every exercise that I give
a kid.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I've done myself.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I know how it feels.
I'm lifting the same likeamount, relatively, like body
weight percentage.
I'm not asking kids to doanything that I wouldn't do
myself or haven't done myselfalready.
There's obviously somelimitations to that because
there's skills that I can't dosometimes but I've never done.
But I'm asking you to do and itjust builds a respect with the
kid.
I think, like they respect thatyou can work hard, you know how
(18:41):
to push yourself mentally there, you know how to get there, and
so they trust you in that waybecause they're like okay, she
knows how to get me therebecause she's been there.
So like this is what I'm goingto do.
I'm going to listen and likelearn this.
And I think what you weretouching on earlier is like you
got to get buy-in with the kid.
You can't just like I can't askyou to do you know 2000 burpees
and not tell you why.
If I told you you were doing2000 burpees because we'repees,
(19:11):
because I said so, and then youalso at the same time knew that
I would never do 2000 burpees,like that's, that's not going to
be a good mindset to be up for.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So and I see it too, and the other way of like, not
only the physical doing or notdoing of stuff, like obviously
there's, like the sacrificesshow significant example, but
it's also too, in like the, themindset that coaching staffs
have in terms of education,wanting to learn more, not being
stuck in their ideas, like Ithink I'm fortunate that
typically, when programs come tome and they ask for help,
(19:41):
whether it's club or college,they're open-minded, they want
to learn, they want to hear myideas.
You know I don't hear from theones who are not open-minded
because they never reach out,but I think there's something to
be said when a coach that hasalready a pretty long career of
10, 15, 20 years, you know, goesto a clinic or reads a book or
learns from a lecture, and theycome back to their athletes and
(20:01):
they say, like you know, this isinteresting.
You know I thought this aboutthis thing, but I, you know, I
heard a podcast the other day,or I went to a lecture, or, like
you know, I, I, somethinghappened in a book where, like,
I just sparked this idea likemaybe, maybe there's something I
could do differently here, andthen I took the time, I woke up
early, I, you know, read thisthing, did more research and
we're going to try something new.
We'll see if it works.
You know and it gives the theexample to follow that the
(20:23):
athlete themselves can speak upand talk about things that maybe
are troubling to them, but alsoif they've been doing something
you know one way for theirwhole life, they come to college
and it's drastically different.
It sets the stage for them toalso be open minded and also
want to learn and try toexperience.
You know, some different changeand that is a very important
factor I see in a lot ofsuccessful programs too is, like
you know, you ask some random30 year old to come into your
(20:47):
program after you've beencoaching for 25 years and talk
to you about why we should liftweights instead of doing all
gymnastics program.
Like that takes some serious,like you know, snuff to like be
willing to even have thatconversation and then you like
take what you want and you kindof leave some more, but like
that's, that's, I think, a verygood.
Also like mental, positiveexample, not just the physical.
Doing the work is like beingopen minded, telling people you
know honestly about when you'refrustrated or what's going on
(21:08):
with you or when you think likethis is what's going on in my
mind right now, like that's thataspect of it is so important to
as well.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think, just like the being able to have
open conversations and likeshowing like you're talking
about being a good leader andlike role modeling exactly what
you want like for the teamthat's fitting that mission that
you've created for that team,so that you're like you always
(21:34):
talk about, your we're buildinggood humans, like that's part of
the process of the sport and ifthat's not your goal, then it's
probably wrong.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean I'm like my father hadliterally like a sign above his
tool bench.
That was like people believewhat you do now, what you say,
and I feel like that's just beennotoriously the model of like
things that I've tried to followthat other people is like you
can talk a big game, you can doall that kind of stuff.
That's really cool.
But like when rubber meets theroad, are you at practice, are
you working hard and are youlike willing to sacrifice some
things to have a benefit for theteam?
Like you know, all that kind ofstuff matters and I think that
(21:59):
sometimes it's challengingbecause people think you have to
have the same personality asthe athletes.
Like I think there's like therah-rah, amped up, super
excitable type of coachingpersonality, an athlete who
loves that kind of like gettinggetting like really, really
excited.
And there's other people thatare just introverted.
They don't love that rah rah.
They need calm, they need quiet.
I think I've seen programs withfive different coaches that have
(22:20):
just vastly differentpersonality types.
You know, um, I I always useMaryland, cause.
Jj is a friend of mine but likeJJ and Brett are very like
excitable and rah rahrah andreally good, whereas Aaron's
very a little bit more chill.
You know she gets excited too,but she's a beam coach and she's
very like a little bit morecalm and cucumber-ish.
And I think that, like theirpersonality profile lends
themselves to a variety ofdifferent athletes that need
(22:41):
different things.
Right, you know Brett's instanding in front of bars,
walking someone through a barroutine, you know it's a very
calm, collected thing, whereasyou know somebody else can
scream their head off on floor,like it's.
It's very different.
I don't want people to thinkthat you can't have different
personalities because even withathletes too, like you talk to
some teams, like I've talked tosome teams and like it is such a
widespread of, like the type, ahyper personable, you know
(23:03):
academic beast who then reallyis focused and is introverted,
to like the most out outgoing,extroverted best friend who's
like screaming all the time,like that's good to have
personality differences but thethe common values and ethics and
character, and like your moralcode and your mission, I think
(23:24):
that is universal.
I think, like everyone can havepersonality differences but you
all agree that you know, Idon't know you all agree in like
certain important virtues thatlike uh, make you part of the
unit and I think that's that'sgood.
That's good to have a lot ofvariety and flavor there.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, and I think it's important too when you're
like able to have those openconversations like and the kid
knows that you care about them.
Like if somebody, if you knowthat somebody cares about you
and you're willing to open upand share and tell them about
yourself, I feel like that makesa drastic difference and
obviously every, every athleteis going to be different and, as
the coaches have differentpersonalities, who are the kids?
(23:58):
And part of being a good coachand being a good like physical
therapist too is just learningthat kid, learning what they
need in the moment, how they'remotivated.
If they're, you know, in a badspot like what, what do they
need to get out of this?
Or you know in a bad spot likewhat, what do they need to get
out of this?
Or you know, what do we need todo next?
And I feel like once you learnsomebody really well, you start
to pick up on those differentthings and you can kind of adapt
(24:20):
yourself to helping thatspecific athlete get out of
where they are or get themmotivated, or knowing what they
need, like they're.
You know, having those simpleconversations I know when I was
coaching they're different, somany different, like kids.
I coached probably 20 kids atone time, which is a lot and
they all need something a littlebit different.
And you know my one kid who'supset might be like crying in
(24:45):
the corner, one of them mightshut down, one of them might be
pretended that they're totallyfine and each kid needs a
different thing.
And even it's so evident in thecheering too, like we saw kids
that were like okay, this kidwants you to scream really loud
in a whole floor routine.
This kid's like if you make asound, I'm gonna mess up.
So everybody needs to be silentso it's just getting to know the
(25:07):
kid, the athlete really welland being able to have those
open conversations, knowing thatthey, so that they know that
you care about them, is really,really important, I think, for
their success and when they knowthat and they know that, they
can come to you with whateverstressors are going through.
Ultimately, I think it's justgoing to improve their
performance and improve theirability to do whatever they need
to do to be good for the teamand a good athlete overall.
(25:29):
Because if they don't feel thatway, I feel like they hold it
all inside and they harbor itand they're not gonna be able to
focus or do well and thatstress is just gonna live within
them, which, with the other twopapers that you were talking
about like having that extrastress is just not good for
performance and not good forthemselves mentally or
physically.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, and you also made an important point in there
, I think is like it just speaksto like having to be authentic,
you know, as a, as a anybody,as a as an athlete, as a coach,
as a medical provider, like Ithink you should just be who you
are and obviously there's likea professional face you wear,
but like you should just beyourself, honestly, more or less
.
Because I think one of thecommon uh, I don't know what the
(26:05):
word is like the epicenter oftheir problems or maybe like a
spark of of a, like a downfallin a consulting session I have,
is when people are saying that aperson is one way here and
another way here.
Like when they're in front ofpeople, they act this way, but
when they're behind the scenesthey act this way, and that is a
.
It is a generator of a lot oflike, you know, distrust and
they, they don't feel as thoughthis person's being authentic
(26:25):
and honest.
They feel as though they'reputting up a facade.
So I think it's reallyimportant for you to be who you
are and be honest and be youknow, the way you are with
everybody the same way, and notbe, you know, dancing around a
different like shell you'reputting on, I should so speak,
and I think I see that inprograms.
I think I see coaches that arejust they're them.
It's that they are who they areand it's wonderful.
(26:47):
They have strengths andweaknesses.
They admit them openly.
But on the medical side and onthe strength and conditioning
side, I think at champion a lotof athletes love coming to us
and love working with us becauselike we're just us man, like
like we treat you know ronaldmike will treat literally like
the 40 million dollar baseballplayer, big leaguer, the same
way he treats the high schoolbaseball player who's coming in
(27:08):
for an appointment.
Right.
And like I think that's reallyimportant is to treat people,
just be yourself and treateveryone the same and kind of
have the same values, sameethics.
Like I pride myself, I try to alot and being like I'm just me
man, like this is what you get,take it or leave it.
Like if people come and theywork out with us and they want
to train with us, that's cool.
But like I'm not going to dancedance, that's a maturity thing
(27:33):
you get to as a coach and anathlete.
But like you know, you gotta bewho you are, like the way, the
way I talk on the podcast, if Iswear, if I chat, it's the same
way it is in person, and I thinkthat's important.
For a culture or a team toembrace is like we are who we
(27:54):
are and like it's okay to bedifferent.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, I agree completely.
And just like with champion, Imean, coming in as a student,
obviously I was, like you know,scared of everyone because you
guys are all legends and I'mjust this, like you know, lowly
little student.
But you get in there and yourealize, like you know, I I mean
I asked tons of questions allthe time when I was there and
frequently, like somebody wouldtell me they don't know, and
(28:16):
they were like let's look intoit.
Let's look at this article.
This is kind of what I think,this is what I've seen here, but
like I don't, ultimately, likeI don't know, like let's look
into it.
It wasn't like on our high horse, like I'm going to tell things
that I don't know, or the thingswe're not sure about and that
changes the game completely solike having that kind of culture
(28:37):
where you can you know athletesknow that okay, I don't need to
know the answers to all thequestions, I don't need to know
like exactly what's going tohappen or you know.
It just builds that liketrusting relationship with
everybody in your healthcareteam and with your coaches yeah,
I agree, right.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
So, like that authenticity also just comes
with being honest, right, beingupfront and honest to people,
and I think gymnastics inparticular, like coaches, are
phenomenal at many, many things,but, like strength conditioning
and nutrition are literallyfull-time doctorate level
careers that people have.
And so sometimes you'll see asituation on the good side,
which is that someone says, likeyou know, maybe I'm not an
expert in mental health andnutrition, maybe I need to
(29:13):
consult with these other peoplewho can come in and give a talk
or a lecture or give me someresources that are helpful.
Like, maybe maybe this person'sissue is something that's
outside my scope of knowledge,whether you're a you know a
coach or not.
But I even have times too inthe clinic that you know I still
ask Mike and Lenny for, forhelp or ideas or questions or
things, and I'm like I don'treally know if I'm getting this
All right.
Like I'm had a couple of likejust tricky elbows or tricky
(29:35):
knees.
I'm like Mike, am I just likegetting everything?
Like is this everything youwould do?
Like can you look at thisprogram?
Or like whatever.
Like I think that, again, when acoach says to an athlete I
don't know, let me look that up,or let me ask somebody about
that.
The same thing can happen on theathlete like what, what do you
technically like want to do forthis or that?
Like well, I don't know.
Like, can you like help me?
Like I learned one way, butlike I don't know, like I think
(29:56):
that again is a very healthyculture trait to have of honesty
about.
Like I don't know that, likelet me look that up.
Or like let's, let's use theseresources that we have, strength
coaches, or like let me try tofind somebody who can help you
with that a bit better than Ican.
I think that's another likevery common thing I see in high
performing cultures is that thatfeedback loop of like I'm
really good at this thing and Ithink that you know I have
expertise and I'm probablyvaluable to tell you what to do
(30:17):
here, but then, like I don'tknow these two or three things
and let me either learn themmyself or find people who can
help me.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, I hope we're shifting like closer to
that kind of culture with gyms.
I know it's been so.
There's been so much history of, I think, there being like the
hardheaded, like strictgymnastics coach that's, you
know this is the only way to doit and like there's no other way
out of it.
And if you don't want to do itthis way, then get out like kind
of culture.
(30:44):
And I I've definitely seen itwith some of the club gyms that
I've been around recently andthat's all been positive changes
, changes, and I hope we're justkeep I agree, pushing towards
that trajectory of having morelike open, honest relationships
and less like strict,hard-headed like this is the
only way.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah it's a much bigger, deeper uh conversation
around, uh, like ego and likeinsecurity and like you know the
complex of thinking that youknow everything.
Like yeah, like I think that'sa an important one.
I think like ties this paper,which is a good place to end on,
is that I love this paper.
So, those who are listening, wehave a paper pulled up.
That is, I think it was.
(31:19):
I don't know when it waspublished.
It was like 2016, 15.
But essentially this is like acommon thing that I look at or I
like reference to people islike a coach's leadership style
and how it influences some morelike hard science of like injury
rates and like coming topractice and compliance and
stuff.
And so this paper is a bit, youknow, jaded, because it was
like the medical doctors of theteams were essentially
(31:42):
evaluating what type of coachingstyle they felt the coaches had
the head coaches like more, youknow, authoritarian, which is
like that dictatorship, thatkind of hardcore style he was
just saying of like this is myway we do this, get the work
done.
There's no exceptions Like thatmore like hard, strict kind of
old school style or the otherstyle, which is more of like a
transformative, kind of likecommon goals, common missions.
(32:04):
Let's talk about this, let'sfigure it out, let's learn Like
I think there's maybe that's anewer school thing, I don't know
if it's like versus atransformative, you know, common
goal, common mission kind ofthing.
And this study essentiallylooked at those types of coaches
, one verse the other, and howthat correlated to injury rates,
(32:24):
performance and practiceadherence.
Like after and long story short, you should read the paper.
But they said that the peoplewho had more of a hardcore,
traditional, strict do as I say,you know, because I said so
kind of approach they tended tohave it was correlated with more
injuries, more time missed frompractices and less performance
(32:44):
results, whereas the oppositewas true, whereas those that had
more of a transformative styleof coaching had less injury
rates, a better performance andmore adherence to coming to
practice consistently.
So these are an elite footballteam, so soccer teams in the UK.
But essentially I think that theprinciple remains is that
generally it's like maybe likethe golden rule of kindergarten
is like if you enjoy going towhere you're going and you want
(33:06):
to work hard because people careabout you and you have a common
goal, you're probably morelikely to talk about injuries
early, you're more likely tocome to practice more often.
You're more often to workthrough hard problems, versus if
you're scared to tell yourcoach that your back hurts or
you're scared to say that thiscause of a mental block, and
they brush off your mental blockand say, whatever, figure it
out.
You probably don't want to goto practice as much, you
probably don't have as muchtrust and faith in that coach
and you're probably less uh,less excited, uh, overall.
(33:29):
So, yeah, this is a great paper.
I love this paper.
It's short too.
I just looked.
You're muted.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean just kind of likereiterating all the things that
we talked about before.
But I definitely see this with,like when I'm rehabbing kids
and trying to get them back inthe gym, it becomes like a.
We have to have a very honestconversation about how whether
or not this kid feelscomfortable telling their coach
if they're allowed to dosomething or not, because if
they're not, if they don't feelcomfortable if the coach has
(34:02):
them to do something they're notallowed to do, like would you
feel comfortable telling yourcoach I'm not allowed to do that
, and would they respect that?
Or would they tell you you haveto do it anyways?
Like what?
What are we dealing with here?
And then again kind of talkingto the parent and seeing what
they think too about that.
And you know, ideally we wouldsend them in with the things
that they're allowed to do andthey would only do those things
and that would be the bestoption, right?
(34:25):
but a lot of times that's nottrue, or at least from some of
the club gyms I'm working with I.
It's rarely true that they'realways.
I always get kids that comeback in and it's honestly sad
because they'll come to me andthey'll be like oh well, my
coach was mad at me, like they.
They told me how to do it and II did.
I said that I wasn't allowed toand they said, well, if you can
do this, then you can do that,and then.
(34:45):
And then they ended up doing it, which you know.
Luckily I haven't really hadany that have ended up like
injured from that, but it justit becomes like a yeah a hard
balance because then it's, Idon't trust them to go to
practice and then and they don't.
really I don't know how thatcomes through from the athlete's
side of things, but that'sgotta be hard from their coach
(35:06):
not respecting their boundariesthat they're trying to create,
especially when they're like 12years old, trying to tell like
an adult.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
That is a sign that it's time to find a new gym.
You know that says to me um,actually I didn't really read
these stats to right now in thesession, but like this is crazy.
The incidence of severeinjuries was 29 to 40% lower in
teams where coaches communicateda clear and positive vision of
the future, supported staffmembers and gave encouragement
and recognition Like I just readthat.
(35:39):
As I just read that as injurieswere a lot lower when you
weren't an asshole and thenattendance at training was
higher in teams where coachesgave encouragement and
recognized staff members,encouraged innovative thinking,
foster trust and cooperationamong team members and acted as
role models.
Like that's kind of what wewere saying.
Right, like good environment,good people, you're talking,
communicating, you're leading byexample.
You have, you know give andtake dynamically.
You understand there's peoplethat are doing the sport, not
(36:00):
athletes that are just yourrobots that do what you say.
Like I just like seeing a paperthat supports some of the like,
maybe the softer skills that wewould say of like you know this
versus like you know what'syour acute to chronic workload
ratio.
Like from the first, like that.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Cool.
All right, I think it's good, Ithink it's enough.
We can say yap all day, but Ilike this one.
So that's three.
We're going to take a break andthen we'll probably film three
down the road.
So if there are episode topicsthat people want, we have some
ideas.
But write to us email, let usknow what's going on.
If you like this, we did three,so three weeks in a row.
Um, if you like it, if youdon't like it, what we can
(36:34):
change, what we can do better.
I kind of like the chat aboutstuff share an article, and then
I think my hope is that maybein the next batch, one or two of
the episodes, we can havesomebody do it with us and
record Um, so it'd be cool tohave our thoughts, a couple of
papers uh, some common maybe,like what's the like real
current event type stuff andthen chat with somebody in real
time who knows a lot about acertain subject.
(36:54):
All right, Good weekend.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Thanks, you too.
Okay, bye.
every day.
You essentially pay your duesby doing the harder thing when
it's the right thing to do.
We welcome dogs on this podcast.
We're a dog adventure.
I feel like post post pandemic,zoom etiquette has become so
different.
Like we'll do the podcast andlenny's daughter will just like
show up in the frame and givehim a hug and like just sit on
his lap and like.
(00:26):
I've taken meetings wherepeople like one sec, I gotta
like, yeah, get my dog out of.
Like my daughter's going crazy.
My god, I don't care that, onlypost pandemic that we have
crazy zoom etiquette.
What was the?
Wasn't there a viral clip oflike a very professional
business dude on nbc and his kidcomes in the back and starts
raging?
I think I remember that hecomes and starts going crazy on
air and like national television, yeah, hilarious.
(00:47):
Um.
Okay, last two weeks been longtwo weeks grinding, you know no.
So the first four, I think yeah, are like very hard science
type stuff we talk about likeworkloads and stuff like that.
But this um to set the stagefor how these come together is I
oftentimes have things I'mworking on or thinking through
(01:07):
in the moment and I write lotsof notes down and then I sit
down for a half hour of a coffeeand in this Google doc that we
have, I like put my thoughtstogether.
It's how I learn, that's how Ilike.
That's actually how shiftstarted was blog posts, because
I was trying to organize mythoughts.
So this, this spark, came fromthe last month of the podcast to
now is like April, may, and Ihave just been the busiest I've
(01:27):
ever been in the clinic withinjuries, consulting stuff like
helping kids get to state,regionals, nationals have a lot
of backend consulting workthat's been going on with like
college programs asking for help, like strength coaches will
reach out to me.
I thought a trainer who reachedout to me and said, like this
is an injury that's person'sdealing with, a lot of coaches
will reach out to me.
(01:48):
I thought a trainer who reachedout to me and said, like this
is an injury that's person'sdealing with, um, a lot of
coaches will reach out like midseason and like check up on
plans or like I'll do consultingwork, uh, that goes into the
summer and so every year, uh,every other year, I give a
lecture to all the collegecoaches about, like some sort of
thing that's going on.
Last year it was the workloadpaper we'd talked about, uh, in
the first episode, no-transcript, this meet.
(02:30):
We didn't get a score we wanted.
Our depth of our lineup kind offell apart.
You know we're frustrated with,like people's motivation levels
.
The coaching staff feels a bitlike uh, at ends with the
athletes or injuries.
People like, yeah, we had, likeyou know, one year
unfortunately, like a programhad three, eight, two or three
ac tears or two or threeAchilles tears or you know half
their lineup was hurt and didn'treally have a competitive field
.
And they reach out to me aboutlike can you look at our program
(02:51):
and help give thoughts?
And I'm flattered by that.
But I oftentimes will spend likean hour with their strength
staff and then an hour withtheir medical staff and then an
hour with the coaches and thenan hour with their athletes and
every.
The message to those people isvery different.
Right, like for the science,the strength conditioning people
, it's more of like thetraditional snc conversation
that happens to have a tint ofgymnastics.
(03:12):
The medical side is very muchbased on injuries, surgeries,
rehab.
You know what are we doing fortesting and like what's all of
our kind of like dorky stuff?
How do we rehab people?
How do we manage people inseason?
The coaches side is almostalways around structuring the
season for like workloads andstrength conditioning and
ramping things up appropriately,working with the other staff
members to have them have thesame message, but also work with
(03:35):
strength coaches and medical.
And then when I talk to theathletes, it's more so about
like how to not fall apart inseason.
Like what is their role onrecovery, on, you know, taking
care of themselves, on, you knowjust calling it what it is like
, you know not drinking and notgoing out too late, not staying
up and, you know, being dead forpractice, you know it's like
the conversation around thescience of like sleeping and
taking care of yourself andstress management.
(03:55):
So, yeah, that is.
I don't talk about my consultingwork cause I try to keep it, uh
, anonymity, but like that'sessentially what I do a lot of
each year around this time islike chatting with these people,
and so this thought processcame up of seeing the last month
of college season and clubseason kind of like play out and
seeing some in a positive light.
(04:15):
Seeing some gyms that justdominate man, like every year
they have five, 10, 15 girls,you know, going to nationals and
then you see teams that areconsistently dancing in the top
20.
They're doing really well andmaybe it's not like getting to
you know regionals or nationals,it's like they're competitive.
They're doing well.
Their kids are healthy.
They're having a good season.
Everyone has a good experience.
The coaches seem like they'rehaving a great time.
There's not like scandals everytwo seconds or whatever.
(04:37):
So, yeah, this is just whereany thoughts from the get on
this.
Aliyah, I feel like I didn'ttalk to you about this one
before because it was kind ofmore the backend work of my life
.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's just, it's a we.
I mean we were both in collegebefore.
It's a lot of balance.
And so trying to balanceeverything all at the same time,
where you're in college and youknow you want to have fun but
you're trying to figure out whatyou're going to do for your job
, like there's just a lot goingon.
And so I think, when we get downto, like talking about a lot of
this and the culture thatsupports you, know, taking care
of yourself mentally andphysically and making sure that
you are well when you're doingall of this high level like
(05:16):
activity and sports activity isreally really important.
And so, while that might varyperson to person, like the
overall arching theme of makingsure that you are doing the
things that you need to do tosupport yourself from, like a
mental wellness standpoint, isreally really important.
And the people, like I thinksometimes when we're looking at
these athletes, we see them asthese really high level athletes
(05:37):
, which they are, but we alsosometimes forget that they're
they're young kids still.
Like they're young adults, likethey're some of these freshmen
are only 18.
Like they still need supportfrom their staff to make sure
that they're, you know doing allthe things that they need to do
, from not only a physicalstandpoint, but from a mental
standpoint too.
So the more support that theycan get from like the leadership
around them, who are their rolemodels actively at that time
(05:59):
because they're away from homemost likely is really really
important.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, I was trying to panic and pull up this.
Um, there's two like reallycool studies.
One I don't I don't have on myfingertips right now, but it
essentially shows that aroundexam periods, uh, injury risk
goes up Right and there's like athere's a so many factors that
could be that, like we're notsleeping as well, we're not
taking care of ourselvesschedule wise, so we're more
tired, we have an overuse injuryrisk.
That's for sure part of it.
It could be that, unfortunately, the stress of exams and what
(06:26):
that requires of them makes them, you know, not be able to
handle the entire kind of likeworkload well.
But I gave a lecture to acouple teams last year and like
one of the craziest things Iremember talking about these two
studies that essentially showedin a nutshell one was a human
trial, one was a rat trial.
Biological validity wasessentially just they showed
that life stress makes you notrecover from exercise as well,
(06:48):
and this is one of them andthat's essentially was showing
that the study was crazy.
I think it's from yale they didit for, but essentially they
did, um, they had people take aquestionnaire that was like how,
how many life stressors do youhave?
Family friends, uh, personalstuff financial, uh, academic
and something and they likerated somebody like on like
global life stress scale.
They took these people and theymade them do like one of the
(07:10):
most horrific eccentric legsquat presses you know circuits
you can imagine.
I think it was like seven setsto failure of like slow
eccentric quads.
Essentially, it was like we'regoing to make you have the worst
doms you've ever felt in yourlife.
And then they measured how manydays it took them to recover
fully from their DOMS and theyshowed that there was a really
good correlation between thosewith more stress in their life
(07:31):
and less recovery and inabilityto recover.
So if you had more lifestressors, it took you longer to
recover physically fromexercise really hard exercise
versus those that didn't have asmuch life stressors, you know
recovered a bit faster.
And that kind of correlates tothe exam, one which is like
maybe you're you don't sleep aswell when you have like drama in
your life and you're arguingwith somebody, or maybe you have
(07:52):
too much academic stress,you're staying up too late,
you're studying, you're nottaking care of your nutrition,
your schedule is off and youcan't really take care of your
health or whatever.
You don't have time to break.
And then the parallel study forthis two years later was they
did the exact same thing withrats.
So they had the rats do astress water test where they
would swim them.
It's pretty cruel, but theywould swim them around and make
them really stressed out fromnot being able to get on the
(08:12):
platform in a water and itdrives up their cortisol levels
and their stress hormone.
And then they have them do.
They simulate eccentric calfwork on a rat?
I don't know how you do this.
You put them in a belt and youlike make them do calf raises
until their their leg stopsworking and they would measure.
They would measure howsensitive their calf muscles
were by touching the calf andseeing if they have a withdrawal
reflex in the rat.
Excuse my french fucking wildstudy, bro, by the way, with
(08:35):
this poor lab tech person doingrat specifics.
But so essentially theysimulated the stress of life,
the calf thing, and then theywould uh test how long it would
take the calf muscle of a rat torecover from doms and then they
would cross section the brainof the rat to look at, like,
what was different between therats that didn't or did do the
stress test and they'veessentially found that, like the
chemical stress markers ofphysical exercise are in the
(08:58):
same bucket as mental exercise.
So when you have high lifestress, you are tapping from
some of the same resources thatyour body needs to physically
recover from exercise.
So cortisol, adrenal hormonestress, like that's a, that's
not a net zero.
You don't have unlimited supplyof your adrenal cortex, your
adrenal glands, your cortisol,all that kind of stuff.
But that was like the validitybiological study related to
(09:19):
humans who have stressful lives.
Maybe sleep, nutrition factors,whatever is, is pulling from
same bucket and they're not ableto recover from physical
exercise.
Long winded answer.
What does that mean?
It means that if you have verystressed out, overworked student
athletes or high schoolers andyou're burying them in hard
gymnastics training and thenasking them to compete on the
(09:40):
weekends, it doesn't, it's notgoing to go well If you don't
have some sort of culture orleadership model where people
are uh, openly talking aboutthings, they're, stressing them
out, they're, they're havingresources available to them.
You're, you're giving andtaking some of the assignments
when someone needs help or isalways buried or not Like.
These people are not machines.
You are not a machine as acoach.
(10:01):
You know you're not a machine.
As an athlete, you need to havethis kind of waving, you know,
balance of on and off, on andoff sympathetic, parasympathetic
, to give yourself body.
You give your body time torecover and handle and adapt to
some of the stresses.
So, yeah, I just think, likewhen I find studies like these
two from Yale, that injury riskone, and like some of this other
leadership study we'll talkabout in a minute, I've just,
(10:21):
I'm just taken aback at howsometimes I think we lose the
forest for the trees, so tospeak, is that you only focus on
the gymnastics, the competition.
You should be able to hit thisroutine right now, be a gamer,
turn it on.
You take a big step back.
This person's like studyingengineering and they're they're
trying to be a good, like youknow, friend.
They have a boyfriend or agirlfriend.
(10:43):
They're trying to are stressful.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, I agree completely.
There's just a lot going on.
I think we really need to begood about meeting the athlete
wherever they are in that dayand not expecting them Like some
days they might be able to hit,you know, five routines in a
row stuck, but other days likeif they're going through all
this extra stress, like they maynot be able to hit a routine
and being able to have an opendialogue from, like, your coach
or your whoever you're workingwith that day, being able to
(11:09):
have the trust to have an opendialogue with them about where
they're at and what's going on,and being able to be vulnerable
with the stresses that they'redealing with, can help, I think,
tremendously.
And I think that's reallyimportant in a culture where
you're you know they're doinghigh level skills that can
seriously injure them, and ifyou don't have the ability to
have an open dialogue with thatkid about what they're going
(11:30):
through and whether or not theytruly need, like, a break that
day or they need to modify theactivity that they're doing in
some way because of whatever'sgoing on, like if they're not,
and then they end up with aninjury that could be career
changing, an injury that's couldbe career changing I mean
that's huge.
So when you think about it thatway versus, you know, just
thinking about, oh, like theyshould be able to hit these
skills every single day, all thetime, no matter what's going on
(11:51):
, like that makes them tough,like that's not really the
question we're looking at.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I've talked about this in other podcasts, but I
think sometimes we haveunrealistic expectations of
athletes, of what we think theyshould be able to do.
Like it's it's rare, thankfully, more so than others.
But like I remember five yearsago, I would talk to some
coaches that literally, I think,expected them to be never tired
, never get hurt, always hittheir skills, show up, work hard
, never sacrifice for familycommitments, no vacations.
(12:15):
Like you're here, you're on allthe time.
I'm like what world do you livein, bro?
Like what world do you live in?
We're like this person's nevertired, never hurt, never has
anything wrong, no mental blocks, they're always ready, they do
whatever you ask all the time.
Like that's just not, that'snot realistic.
And uh, I think in terms oflike other resources that are
helpful for people like, um,we've done podcasts.
So, like on the club level, uh,who is it?
(12:36):
Brett Wargo and Sarah Korngoldhave really good podcasts on
this discussion around likegiving and taking and like you
know, one day as you pull back,one day as you push harder.
Nick erotic obviously has someamazing podcasts we've done on
the elite side of things.
And then Brett from Marylandhas an episode where he talks a
lot about this, about.
Like you know, student athletesare dynamic, evolving beasts and
they have a lot of things goingon in their life and you have
(12:56):
to be willing to be malleablewith their assignments and with
their expectations and have aculture that supports open
communication which allows forthe deal with the real shit.
You know, like if you don'tdeal with the real issues and
the root level stuff, I don'tknow.
I can only describe it as likewhen you're in a group of people
who feel like they're all justlike blowing smoke, you can feel
(13:16):
the fakeness in the air.
You can feel like the likewe're not talking about real
problems.
We're all propping each otherup Like there's an elephant in
the room.
It's something going on youhave to address and, in my
opinion, from my outside,looking in, when I work with
programs of collegeinternational here in the States
or whatever, or uh across thepond, um, it always comes back
(13:39):
to like well, do you have aculture that supports?
Like you care about people?
You care about the people thatare in front of you, that happen
to do gymnastics or happen tocoach, or happen to be a PT or
happen to be a strength coach?
Do you care about the people inyour program that you want to
see them do?
Well?
And if that is the first step,the next piece is like okay, do
you have a stated, like, sharedmission?
Like, do you guys all want towork towards the same goal?
(14:01):
Have you talked about themission?
Have you talked about the goal?
And only when you have like thehuman layer of you care about
people you want to do well, thenthere's like something you're
anchoring yourself in for, likea common goal, a common mission.
Then you get to the level oflike okay, we have the
environment to be honest witheach other.
(14:21):
We have the ability to say ourmind respectfully and honestly
when problems come up.
We I can say I'm feeling kindof sick, I have a physics test
on Friday.
I don't think I can do a meatrun through.
Can I please come in and do itthe next day?
Right, like that can onlyhappen.
At the honest.
We're actually dealing with thelevel we care about if the two
first things are in peace, andso I'm not sure if that mental
framework makes sense.
But that's how I view it when Italk to people.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, no, I agree completely.
And being able to be malle good, they're tired.
Whatever it was the nightbefore they come in, they're
probably not going to do a greatroutine.
So, if they're, if you'reflexible with them and you're
like, okay, we're not doing ittoday, we'll do it the next day,
it's probably going to be morebeneficial for everyone.
Everyone's going to feel alittle bit better about it.
The routine is probably goingto look better, feel better.
It's just not as productive ifyou're, you know, kind of
(15:08):
wasting your time.
If you're like exhausted andyou're trying to like push
through a routine, like there'sone thing where you know there
are times when people need to bepushed, like you know they're
tired, whatever it is, there aretimes when they're.
That's where open dialoguecomes in, cause there's times to
push and there's times that,okay, maybe that's not like the
best choice for us.
So, being able to have like anopen, vulnerable conversation
(15:28):
with your coach and with the kidand trying to figure out, you
know, what do we need to do here, like what's the best option
for us?
Is it to back off today, or oris this something we just need?
We need to talk about it, weneed to get it out on the table
and then we need to push through.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I think it goes back to,like you know the want to place
at regionals and make it tonationals.
Like if that's your goal, likethat shit's hard bro, like
you're going to need to workhard for it.
And so in the preseason youhave to openly say, like okay,
this is our goal.
Do we all collectively agree?
(16:01):
Like this is what we want as ateam.
And if you don't want that goal, then like that's okay.
But like we, we are going tofigure this out in a way to move
in the right direction.
Once you have that and you youinvolve athletes in the plan at
high school and college andelite or whatever.
Like okay, this is why I thinkwe should have these three
(16:23):
really hard weeks.
Then we'll deload for a week.
You know we're going to do tworeally hard strength
conditioning days and I promiseyou that the last thing you're
going to want to do is wake upat six and go to the weight room
and do these two days of weighttraining and then have to go to
class.
Like it's going to be hard.
But like we, we all agree weneed this to be better, right,
and so like you have that anchorand then when you're able to
use those moments of like.
(16:44):
I know it's hard now, but thisisn't the plan.
This is part of the plan.
We plan this together for areason.
There's good science behindthis.
It's easier to you bank trustwith athletes, you bank trust
with people when you have a planand you stick to it and you're
constantly involving them in theprocess.
They feel as though they'repart of it, not just like the
receiving end of instructions.
Um, and I think that's really aquality of something I see in
(17:04):
high level programs and coachesis they have that ongoing
fluidity.
This is the plan.
This is why we're doing it.
Let's explain it to you.
I know it's hard, but like we'rein this together, like I'm
going to be in here too, I'mgoing to you know I'm going to
(17:25):
come with you in the morning inthe weight room and I'm going to
show up and make sure it'sgoing well.
You don't do what you say you'regoing to do and you don't lead
by positive example.
All your talk goes out thewindow, like I promise you that.
Like if you tell athletes towake up early and go do weights
and then go train really hardand you're like eating junk food
and not working out yourselfand sitting on a block barking
(17:45):
orders, like it's like, likeit's just a road, it's like dust
, like well, who are you to saythat?
Like, you know we should lead ahealthy lifestyle and you know,
eat really well and not go outand not drink for the whole
season, but you're just likeliterally like destroying
yourself as a positive example,right, and the opposite is true.
If you, if you take care ofyourself and you hustle and like
jump into conditioning andgrind with them a little bit,
like it builds example.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Definitely, I agree.
Yeah, like in both worlds andcoaching and in PT, I mean you
should be able to demonstrate,you know, the same exercises
that you're asking them to do,like every exercise that I give
a kid.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I've done myself.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I know how it feels.
I'm lifting the same likeamount, relatively, like body
weight percentage.
I'm not asking kids to doanything that I wouldn't do
myself or haven't done myselfalready.
There's obviously somelimitations to that because
there's skills that I can't dosometimes but I've never done.
But I'm asking you to do and itjust builds a respect with the
kid.
I think, like they respect thatyou can work hard, you know how
(18:41):
to push yourself mentally there, you know how to get there, and
so they trust you in that waybecause they're like okay, she
knows how to get me therebecause she's been there.
So like this is what I'm goingto do.
I'm going to listen and likelearn this.
And I think what you weretouching on earlier is like you
got to get buy-in with the kid.
You can't just like I can't askyou to do you know 2000 burpees
and not tell you why.
If I told you you were doing2000 burpees because we'repees,
(19:11):
because I said so, and then youalso at the same time knew that
I would never do 2000 burpees,like that's, that's not going to
be a good mindset to be up for.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So and I see it too, and the other way of like, not
only the physical doing or notdoing of stuff, like obviously
there's, like the sacrificesshow significant example, but
it's also too, in like the, themindset that coaching staffs
have in terms of education,wanting to learn more, not being
stuck in their ideas, like Ithink I'm fortunate that
typically, when programs come tome and they ask for help,
(19:41):
whether it's club or college,they're open-minded, they want
to learn, they want to hear myideas.
You know I don't hear from theones who are not open-minded
because they never reach out,but I think there's something to
be said when a coach that hasalready a pretty long career of
10, 15, 20 years, you know, goesto a clinic or reads a book or
learns from a lecture, and theycome back to their athletes and
(20:01):
they say, like you know, this isinteresting.
You know I thought this aboutthis thing, but I, you know, I
heard a podcast the other day,or I went to a lecture, or, like
you know, I, I, somethinghappened in a book where, like,
I just sparked this idea likemaybe, maybe there's something I
could do differently here, andthen I took the time, I woke up
early, I, you know, read thisthing, did more research and
we're going to try something new.
We'll see if it works.
You know and it gives the theexample to follow that the
(20:23):
athlete themselves can speak upand talk about things that maybe
are troubling to them, but alsoif they've been doing something
you know one way for theirwhole life, they come to college
and it's drastically different.
It sets the stage for them toalso be open minded and also
want to learn and try toexperience.
You know, some different changeand that is a very important
factor I see in a lot ofsuccessful programs too is, like
you know, you ask some random30 year old to come into your
(20:47):
program after you've beencoaching for 25 years and talk
to you about why we should liftweights instead of doing all
gymnastics program.
Like that takes some serious,like you know, snuff to like be
willing to even have thatconversation and then you like
take what you want and you kindof leave some more, but like
that's, that's, I think, a verygood.
Also like mental, positiveexample, not just the physical.
Doing the work is like beingopen minded, telling people you
know honestly about when you'refrustrated or what's going on
(21:08):
with you or when you think likethis is what's going on in my
mind right now, like that's thataspect of it is so important to
as well.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think, just like the being able to have
open conversations and likeshowing like you're talking
about being a good leader andlike role modeling exactly what
you want like for the teamthat's fitting that mission that
you've created for that team,so that you're like you always
(21:34):
talk about, your we're buildinggood humans, like that's part of
the process of the sport and ifthat's not your goal, then it's
probably wrong.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean I'm like my father hadliterally like a sign above his
tool bench.
That was like people believewhat you do now, what you say,
and I feel like that's just beennotoriously the model of like
things that I've tried to followthat other people is like you
can talk a big game, you can doall that kind of stuff.
That's really cool.
But like when rubber meets theroad, are you at practice, are
you working hard and are youlike willing to sacrifice some
things to have a benefit for theteam?
Like you know, all that kind ofstuff matters and I think that
(21:59):
sometimes it's challengingbecause people think you have to
have the same personality asthe athletes.
Like I think there's like therah-rah, amped up, super
excitable type of coachingpersonality, an athlete who
loves that kind of like gettinggetting like really, really
excited.
And there's other people thatare just introverted.
They don't love that rah rah.
They need calm, they need quiet.
I think I've seen programs withfive different coaches that have
(22:20):
just vastly differentpersonality types.
You know, um, I I always useMaryland, cause.
Jj is a friend of mine but likeJJ and Brett are very like
excitable and rah rahrah andreally good, whereas Aaron's
very a little bit more chill.
You know she gets excited too,but she's a beam coach and she's
very like a little bit morecalm and cucumber-ish.
And I think that, like theirpersonality profile lends
themselves to a variety ofdifferent athletes that need
(22:41):
different things.
Right, you know Brett's instanding in front of bars,
walking someone through a barroutine, you know it's a very
calm, collected thing, whereasyou know somebody else can
scream their head off on floor,like it's.
It's very different.
I don't want people to thinkthat you can't have different
personalities because even withathletes too, like you talk to
some teams, like I've talked tosome teams and like it is such a
widespread of, like the type, ahyper personable, you know
(23:03):
academic beast who then reallyis focused and is introverted,
to like the most out outgoing,extroverted best friend who's
like screaming all the time,like that's good to have
personality differences but thethe common values and ethics and
character, and like your moralcode and your mission, I think
(23:24):
that is universal.
I think, like everyone can havepersonality differences but you
all agree that you know, Idon't know you all agree in like
certain important virtues thatlike uh, make you part of the
unit and I think that's that'sgood.
That's good to have a lot ofvariety and flavor there.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, and I think it's important too when you're
like able to have those openconversations like and the kid
knows that you care about them.
Like if somebody, if you knowthat somebody cares about you
and you're willing to open upand share and tell them about
yourself, I feel like that makesa drastic difference and
obviously every, every athleteis going to be different and, as
the coaches have differentpersonalities, who are the kids?
(23:58):
And part of being a good coachand being a good like physical
therapist too is just learningthat kid, learning what they
need in the moment, how they'remotivated.
If they're, you know, in a badspot like what, what do they
need to get out of this?
Or you know in a bad spot likewhat, what do they need to get
out of this?
Or you know, what do we need todo next?
And I feel like once you learnsomebody really well, you start
to pick up on those differentthings and you can kind of adapt
(24:20):
yourself to helping thatspecific athlete get out of
where they are or get themmotivated, or knowing what they
need, like they're.
You know, having those simpleconversations I know when I was
coaching they're different, somany different, like kids.
I coached probably 20 kids atone time, which is a lot and
they all need something a littlebit different.
And you know my one kid who'supset might be like crying in
(24:45):
the corner, one of them mightshut down, one of them might be
pretended that they're totallyfine and each kid needs a
different thing.
And even it's so evident in thecheering too, like we saw kids
that were like okay, this kidwants you to scream really loud
in a whole floor routine.
This kid's like if you make asound, I'm gonna mess up.
So everybody needs to be silentso it's just getting to know the
(25:07):
kid, the athlete really welland being able to have those
open conversations, knowing thatthey, so that they know that
you care about them, is really,really important, I think, for
their success and when they knowthat and they know that, they
can come to you with whateverstressors are going through.
Ultimately, I think it's justgoing to improve their
performance and improve theirability to do whatever they need
to do to be good for the teamand a good athlete overall.
(25:29):
Because if they don't feel thatway, I feel like they hold it
all inside and they harbor itand they're not gonna be able to
focus or do well and thatstress is just gonna live within
them, which, with the other twopapers that you were talking
about like having that extrastress is just not good for
performance and not good forthemselves mentally or
physically.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, and you also made an important point in there
, I think is like it just speaksto like having to be authentic,
you know, as a, as a anybody,as a as an athlete, as a coach,
as a medical provider, like Ithink you should just be who you
are and obviously there's likea professional face you wear,
but like you should just beyourself, honestly, more or less
.
Because I think one of thecommon uh, I don't know what the
(26:05):
word is like the epicenter oftheir problems or maybe like a
spark of of a, like a downfallin a consulting session I have,
is when people are saying that aperson is one way here and
another way here.
Like when they're in front ofpeople, they act this way, but
when they're behind the scenesthey act this way, and that is a
.
It is a generator of a lot oflike, you know, distrust and
they, they don't feel as thoughthis person's being authentic
(26:25):
and honest.
They feel as though they'reputting up a facade.
So I think it's reallyimportant for you to be who you
are and be honest and be youknow, the way you are with
everybody the same way, and notbe, you know, dancing around a
different like shell you'reputting on, I should so speak,
and I think I see that inprograms.
I think I see coaches that arejust they're them.
It's that they are who they areand it's wonderful.
(26:47):
They have strengths andweaknesses.
They admit them openly.
But on the medical side and onthe strength and conditioning
side, I think at champion a lotof athletes love coming to us
and love working with us becauselike we're just us man, like
like we treat you know ronaldmike will treat literally like
the 40 million dollar baseballplayer, big leaguer, the same
way he treats the high schoolbaseball player who's coming in
(27:08):
for an appointment.
Right.
And like I think that's reallyimportant is to treat people,
just be yourself and treateveryone the same and kind of
have the same values, sameethics.
Like I pride myself, I try to alot and being like I'm just me
man, like this is what you get,take it or leave it.
Like if people come and theywork out with us and they want
to train with us, that's cool.
But like I'm not going to dancedance, that's a maturity thing
(27:33):
you get to as a coach and anathlete.
But like you know, you gotta bewho you are, like the way, the
way I talk on the podcast, if Iswear, if I chat, it's the same
way it is in person, and I thinkthat's important.
For a culture or a team toembrace is like we are who we
(27:54):
are and like it's okay to bedifferent.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, I agree completely.
And just like with champion, Imean, coming in as a student,
obviously I was, like you know,scared of everyone because you
guys are all legends and I'mjust this, like you know, lowly
little student.
But you get in there and yourealize, like you know, I I mean
I asked tons of questions allthe time when I was there and
frequently, like somebody wouldtell me they don't know, and
(28:16):
they were like let's look intoit.
Let's look at this article.
This is kind of what I think,this is what I've seen here, but
like I don't, ultimately, likeI don't know, like let's look
into it.
It wasn't like on our high horse, like I'm going to tell things
that I don't know, or the thingswe're not sure about and that
changes the game completely solike having that kind of culture
(28:37):
where you can you know athletesknow that okay, I don't need to
know the answers to all thequestions, I don't need to know
like exactly what's going tohappen or you know.
It just builds that liketrusting relationship with
everybody in your healthcareteam and with your coaches yeah,
I agree, right.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
So, like that authenticity also just comes
with being honest, right, beingupfront and honest to people,
and I think gymnastics inparticular, like coaches, are
phenomenal at many, many things,but, like strength conditioning
and nutrition are literallyfull-time doctorate level
careers that people have.
And so sometimes you'll see asituation on the good side,
which is that someone says, likeyou know, maybe I'm not an
expert in mental health andnutrition, maybe I need to
(29:13):
consult with these other peoplewho can come in and give a talk
or a lecture or give me someresources that are helpful.
Like, maybe maybe this person'sissue is something that's
outside my scope of knowledge,whether you're a you know a
coach or not.
But I even have times too inthe clinic that you know I still
ask Mike and Lenny for, forhelp or ideas or questions or
things, and I'm like I don'treally know if I'm getting this
All right.
Like I'm had a couple of likejust tricky elbows or tricky
(29:35):
knees.
I'm like Mike, am I just likegetting everything?
Like is this everything youwould do?
Like can you look at thisprogram?
Or like whatever.
Like I think that, again, when acoach says to an athlete I
don't know, let me look that up,or let me ask somebody about
that.
The same thing can happen on theathlete like what, what do you
technically like want to do forthis or that?
Like well, I don't know.
Like, can you like help me?
Like I learned one way, butlike I don't know, like I think
(29:56):
that again is a very healthyculture trait to have of honesty
about.
Like I don't know that, likelet me look that up.
Or like let's, let's use theseresources that we have, strength
coaches, or like let me try tofind somebody who can help you
with that a bit better than Ican.
I think that's another likevery common thing I see in high
performing cultures is that thatfeedback loop of like I'm
really good at this thing and Ithink that you know I have
expertise and I'm probablyvaluable to tell you what to do
(30:17):
here, but then, like I don'tknow these two or three things
and let me either learn themmyself or find people who can
help me.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, I hope we're shifting like closer to
that kind of culture with gyms.
I know it's been so.
There's been so much history of, I think, there being like the
hardheaded, like strictgymnastics coach that's, you
know this is the only way to doit and like there's no other way
out of it.
And if you don't want to do itthis way, then get out like kind
of culture.
(30:44):
And I I've definitely seen itwith some of the club gyms that
I've been around recently andthat's all been positive changes
, changes, and I hope we're justkeep I agree, pushing towards
that trajectory of having morelike open, honest relationships
and less like strict,hard-headed like this is the
only way.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah it's a much bigger, deeper uh conversation
around, uh, like ego and likeinsecurity and like you know the
complex of thinking that youknow everything.
Like yeah, like I think that'sa an important one.
I think like ties this paper,which is a good place to end on,
is that I love this paper.
So, those who are listening, wehave a paper pulled up.
That is, I think it was.
(31:19):
I don't know when it waspublished.
It was like 2016, 15.
But essentially this is like acommon thing that I look at or I
like reference to people islike a coach's leadership style
and how it influences some morelike hard science of like injury
rates and like coming topractice and compliance and
stuff.
And so this paper is a bit, youknow, jaded, because it was
like the medical doctors of theteams were essentially
(31:42):
evaluating what type of coachingstyle they felt the coaches had
the head coaches like more, youknow, authoritarian, which is
like that dictatorship, thatkind of hardcore style he was
just saying of like this is myway we do this, get the work
done.
There's no exceptions Like thatmore like hard, strict kind of
old school style or the otherstyle, which is more of like a
transformative, kind of likecommon goals, common missions.
(32:04):
Let's talk about this, let'sfigure it out, let's learn Like
I think there's maybe that's anewer school thing, I don't know
if it's like versus atransformative, you know, common
goal, common mission kind ofthing.
And this study essentiallylooked at those types of coaches
, one verse the other, and howthat correlated to injury rates,
(32:24):
performance and practiceadherence.
Like after and long story short, you should read the paper.
But they said that the peoplewho had more of a hardcore,
traditional, strict do as I say,you know, because I said so
kind of approach they tended tohave it was correlated with more
injuries, more time missed frompractices and less performance
(32:44):
results, whereas the oppositewas true, whereas those that had
more of a transformative styleof coaching had less injury
rates, a better performance andmore adherence to coming to
practice consistently.
So these are an elite footballteam, so soccer teams in the UK.
But essentially I think that theprinciple remains is that
generally it's like maybe likethe golden rule of kindergarten
is like if you enjoy going towhere you're going and you want
(33:06):
to work hard because people careabout you and you have a common
goal, you're probably morelikely to talk about injuries
early, you're more likely tocome to practice more often.
You're more often to workthrough hard problems, versus if
you're scared to tell yourcoach that your back hurts or
you're scared to say that thiscause of a mental block, and
they brush off your mental blockand say, whatever, figure it
out.
You probably don't want to goto practice as much, you
probably don't have as muchtrust and faith in that coach
and you're probably less uh,less excited, uh, overall.
(33:29):
So, yeah, this is a great paper.
I love this paper.
It's short too.
I just looked.
You're muted.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean just kind of likereiterating all the things that
we talked about before.
But I definitely see this with,like when I'm rehabbing kids
and trying to get them back inthe gym, it becomes like a.
We have to have a very honestconversation about how whether
or not this kid feelscomfortable telling their coach
if they're allowed to dosomething or not, because if
they're not, if they don't feelcomfortable if the coach has
(34:02):
them to do something they're notallowed to do, like would you
feel comfortable telling yourcoach I'm not allowed to do that
, and would they respect that?
Or would they tell you you haveto do it anyways?
Like what?
What are we dealing with here?
And then again kind of talkingto the parent and seeing what
they think too about that.
And you know, ideally we wouldsend them in with the things
that they're allowed to do andthey would only do those things
and that would be the bestoption, right?
(34:25):
but a lot of times that's nottrue, or at least from some of
the club gyms I'm working with I.
It's rarely true that they'realways.
I always get kids that comeback in and it's honestly sad
because they'll come to me andthey'll be like oh well, my
coach was mad at me, like they.
They told me how to do it and II did.
I said that I wasn't allowed toand they said, well, if you can
do this, then you can do that,and then.
(34:45):
And then they ended up doing it, which you know.
Luckily I haven't really hadany that have ended up like
injured from that, but it justit becomes like a yeah a hard
balance because then it's, Idon't trust them to go to
practice and then and they don't.
really I don't know how thatcomes through from the athlete's
side of things, but that'sgotta be hard from their coach
(35:06):
not respecting their boundariesthat they're trying to create,
especially when they're like 12years old, trying to tell like
an adult.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
That is a sign that it's time to find a new gym.
You know that says to me um,actually I didn't really read
these stats to right now in thesession, but like this is crazy.
The incidence of severeinjuries was 29 to 40% lower in
teams where coaches communicateda clear and positive vision of
the future, supported staffmembers and gave encouragement
and recognition Like I just readthat.
(35:39):
As I just read that as injurieswere a lot lower when you
weren't an asshole and thenattendance at training was
higher in teams where coachesgave encouragement and
recognized staff members,encouraged innovative thinking,
foster trust and cooperationamong team members and acted as
role models.
Like that's kind of what wewere saying.
Right, like good environment,good people, you're talking,
communicating, you're leading byexample.
You have, you know give andtake dynamically.
You understand there's peoplethat are doing the sport, not
(36:00):
athletes that are just yourrobots that do what you say.
Like I just like seeing a paperthat supports some of the like,
maybe the softer skills that wewould say of like you know this
versus like you know what'syour acute to chronic workload
ratio.
Like from the first, like that.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Cool.
All right, I think it's good, Ithink it's enough.
We can say yap all day, but Ilike this one.
So that's three.
We're going to take a break andthen we'll probably film three
down the road.
So if there are episode topicsthat people want, we have some
ideas.
But write to us email, let usknow what's going on.
If you like this, we did three,so three weeks in a row.
Um, if you like it, if youdon't like it, what we can
(36:34):
change, what we can do better.
I kind of like the chat aboutstuff share an article, and then
I think my hope is that maybein the next batch, one or two of
the episodes, we can havesomebody do it with us and
record Um, so it'd be cool tohave our thoughts, a couple of
papers uh, some common maybe,like what's the like real
current event type stuff andthen chat with somebody in real
time who knows a lot about acertain subject.
(36:54):
All right, Good weekend.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Thanks, you too.
Okay, bye.
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