Ellie Black & Becky Downie on Paris Olympics & The Future of Gymnastics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Shift Show, where mynumber one goal is to give you
the tools, ideas and the latestscience to help you change
gymnast lives.
My name is Dave Tilly.

(00:20):
Today on the podcast, twoabsolute legends, ellie Black
and Becky Downey, who have bothbeen on the podcast before, but
invited them back on postOlympics to share not only all
the things that were amazingabout Paris and their
experiences and how this wasdifferent than past Olympics,
but also kind of use this as anopportunity to take a big step
back and say you know, look howfar the sport has come in terms
of, you know, majority wise,being like the ages in which

(00:43):
people are competing at thehighest level, the culture
change around strength andconditioning and nutrition,
mental health, and you know howcoaching and culture together
has changed to be much more infavor of treating, you know, the
athlete first and kind oftaking care of the athletes well
being first before performancesand medals, but still using
that in a context of beingcompetitive and trying to chase
super duper high level goals atthe Olympic stage, as they both

(01:06):
have over multiple cycles now,and so obviously in these
situations, you know, there's nobetter person to ask about.
You know what has changed, whatdo you feel has changed?
What is good, what is not sogreat?
What should we keep working on?
You know, athletes themselveswho have been through so many
cycles, like Ellie and Becky,are really the best sources of
information because they offeryou so much context around what
they've done and what they thinkhas worked super well and

(01:27):
things they could maybe go backand change differently or offer
as advice to other people.
So this is like an just like amandatory listen for anyone in
gymnastics, coach gymnastics uh,athlete yourself.
Um, support staff, medical wetalk about the role of medical
nutrition, strength andconditioning.
Um, overall governing bodies.
Like, just, if you've onlylistened to one, maybe in a
little while, do me a favor ofreally sink this one in, but
also just send this to a bunchof people that you know that are

(01:49):
on your team, that you'veworked with, that are coaching
staff, that are support staff,medical staff, because the
subtopics we touch on here rangeso many really important issues
that I feel like have to bemore of a conversation within
all of our small communities.
So, you know, if you're a coach, send this to your other
coaches on staff and just belike hey guys, give this a
listen to what Becky and Elliethink about.
You know their whole journeyand, you know, maybe get a

(02:11):
couple of conversation pointsgoing at your next staff meeting
or send it to your teammatesand kind of see if their
experiences match up with yoursor things you can talk about
with your own coaches.
I think that these are the bestsources of information.
To kind of get conversationgoing is when you hear a podcast
, you soak on it in yourself,then you share it with other
people and just like, oh, what'dyou think about that?
Like over coffee, over lunch,like just get these
conversations going, cause ithas really been the product of

(02:32):
so many of these small momentsof forward momentum that we're
at where we are now, which is amuch better place than 10 years
ago, and I think this is a greatexperience, because both Ellie
and Becky have just an insaneamount of knowledge to pass on.
So we won't keep banteringanymore.
But, yeah, give us one tolisten, give it a big share.
I'd really appreciate if youtag people on social media.
Tag us, we'll repost them.
Tag Ellie, tag Becky, make surewe get it out there.
So hope you all enjoy thiswonderful episode with Ellie and

(02:53):
Becky.
Nighttime routine.
You got tea, you have a nicesweater, you have everything
going on.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
No, I actually went back to the gym for the first
time today to see my coach andsee the girls oh shoot.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
How was that?

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I was with them this afternoon.
Um, and then the editor justgot in, had dinner, got hot
chocolate I have a matcha,that's all.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
I got like a midday matcha because I didn't want to
get all backed up and not beable to sleep all night.
But how was the gym?
Was that the first time back?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
you said yeah, I thought I'd have gone in sooner
just to see everyone, but likeI've just been busy, so yeah, I
said to jen, we tried.
We literally like booked intoday and the girls room from
half one, so I was like I'llcome say hi, come see everyone,
that's right, yeah, ellie and Iwere just talking before that.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
She was saying it's impossible to see everybody
before you go do more things,and I'm sure it's not easy to
schedule everything no, it's not, it's been.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
I've been busier, I think, than I thought.
I mean, I don't know what Iwould expect, I think because
it's been such a long time sinceI've done a games like the
platform that it gives you andthe stage that you're put on is
so different to like.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
I know.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
I've been on for a long time.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
I know?
Yeah.
Well, I was just looking onInstagram.
What are you doing?
Like you and Danusha flexing onus with this boat trip, like
what's going on here?
What is this girl?

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah.
So I got offered and, um, whenI then saw the scale of the
event, I was like I don't wantto go on my own, like I want a
plus one, and my agent's likeyeah, you can have a plus one.
So I was like at first I askedellie and she's in the process
of like moving house, setting upa new business, and then she
was like I'm not sure and I waslike no, she would definitely be
all over this time, right?

Speaker 1 (04:22):
that's amazing.
What, ellie?
What did you do after the game?
Did you go to italy, I thinkactually.
Did you make croissants?
Did I actually see that in theparis?
First of all, was that a thingthat happened?

Speaker 3 (04:30):
so in the village we made baguettes.
We learned how to makebaguettes.
They had a little yeah,boulangerie in the village so
you could sign up for a time togo and learn how to make some
bread.
So, yeah, we did that as a team.
But after Paris, I spent alittle bit of time there with my
family and then some of myfriends were traveling in Europe

(04:51):
, so I met them in Italy andtook a vacation there.
It was super nice and a longtime coming, but, yeah, it was
just great to take that time,actually be able to do it from
Paris, because Europe is just soaccessible.
And, yeah, to go do that withmy friends and spend time, yeah,
with my family, like it's notevery day you get to do that.

(05:13):
And I think it's reallyimportant after the games to
make time for those things,because for so long we're so
dedicated to our training andyou know you say no to a lot of
things.
So it was, it was reallyrefreshing, but I was happy to
come home after.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Did you feel instantly classier when you were
making baguettes in Paris, Like, did you have like the
fanciness factor?

Speaker 3 (05:28):
I was like, oh my gosh like I am now a chef, call
me for all your bread needs.
I've got you.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
I'm going to call you expertise.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
All loaves of bread are ordered via Ellie from
Halifax from now on, so I'velearned how to make one, and
that means I'm a professional atmaking all of them, so we'll
call him right now.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
I'm sure he's got a spot for you on the team, so
perfect, I'm ready did you stayin paris for a while, becky, or
did you go back home right away?
Were you cooked?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
uh, yeah, we went back pretty early actually.
Um, most of the girls didn'tknow, some of the boys, uh,
stayed out there all the waythrough till closing.
But, yeah, I came back like twodays after my event.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
So, yeah, not too long I can't imagine that your
own bed is, uh, very neededafter an exhausting gauntlet of
a week, because I think that'sactually one thing people don't
appreciate is how that like thewhole week is like a monster,
right.
It's not like you just show upand compete once, then you have
the rest of your day, like Iknow steven, for example, like
competed on saturday and then hecompeted again the end of the
week.
Like it's a lot, man, to waitthat long, especially like when

(06:25):
you have an event final andsomething like that.
It's like it's not like acakewalk, right.
You're like very stressed theentire week.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
No, yeah, there's.
I think there's just a lot totake in in general, because you
really want to make the most ofthe experience, taking like all
the opportunities that kind ofcome with the games as well, but
at the same time you are super.
You know that you're there todo a job ultimately.
So it's kind of like gettingthat balance right between the
two.
But I had a great time outthere, so it was really
enjoyable.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, and also to that point I mean when I talk to
athletes who are with us hereat home, it's like not only the
event, but it's like obviouslythe day before, like it's a lot
on your mind, it's the practice.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
It's ready.
Like the whole thing is such aramp up of your like adrenaline
and like the come down and stuff.
I can imagine that rollercoaster over a whole week is a
lot, yeah, yeah, I think whenyou're there, like I think
you're just so immersed in ityou kind of just you don't
really realize that you're doingit in some ways until like
after, and then when you lookback on it you're like gosh, so
much happened in such a shortspace of time.
But I guess that's what all thetraining and all the preps for
as well.
You kind of just you're so inthe zone.
I think by the time you getthere You're really excited to
kind of get through to thatfirst comp day and then

(07:29):
obviously everything rides onthat first day for us as to then
going through and taking thingsforward.
But I think the team aspect issuper nice, like when you
actually can qualify through toa Games with a team, and I know
you guys got to do that as well.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
It.
Well, it makes such a bigdifference like having them
around you and having thatexperience as well, with like
more people rather than justlike one or two.
So I know, I know what aboutyou, ellie, like at a big level
picture, like how was the games?
Like like takeaways, likewhat's what was going through
your mind.
Now that you're decompressed abit from it oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, I mean it was pretty incredible, especially
coming off of like the covidgames last time, like just like
becky's saying, like being therewith a team, it like it's so
important.
And it's just I mean like atleast for the Canadians like to
qualify a team to have that manyindividuals go like it's it's
huge, and for them to have thatexperience and opportunity and
yeah, and then you canexperience it like through their

(08:19):
eyes again, because we had, youknow, two girls on our team it
was their first olympics and,yeah, just experiencing like the
magic and the special momentsof the games like through their
eyes again, I think was waspretty cool.
But yeah, coming off the covidgames like that was so stressful
, not having your friends andfamily there to support you, and
like after that was all saidand done, I kind of looked back

(08:41):
and I was like, wow, I don'tthink I really realized like how
difficult that was and howstressful and like how anxious I
was like the whole time andlike the whole like year leading
up, like how much of a tollthat took.
So I think for this games itwas really important for me to
yeah really just enjoy beingthere, like performing in front
of my friends and family,soaking up the experience,

(09:02):
obviously going to do my job,but yeah, just trying to really
like appreciate what the gamesare all about and like what the
bigger picture is.
So I think that was like prettycool and going into my fourth
games like that's wild.
So I was just like you know, yougotta enjoy the process and
enjoy what you do.
But it is a long, a longprocess like leading up to this.

(09:23):
This year felt very long andthen by the time you get there,
you have to pace yourselfthrough so many days of
competition and so many like upsand downs.
So it is really nice to havethe team there to support you
yeah, no doubt, becky.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
What about you reflecting on not your first
rodeo, by any means.
What's the uh?
Looking back at all of themyou've gone through, like how is
it now?

Speaker 2 (09:41):
um, very different, I think, like the sport is just
in a really different place aswell, which also changes the
whole vibe of things.
And I remember my first gamesin Beijing, I think out of all
three, I think, just being thatfirst timer and the scale of
Beijing just felt huge.
The place, the village, it justwas insane.
I wish I was a little bit older, to be fair, to have been able

(10:03):
to take that in a bit more, I'dsay in terms of just the
experience that one was still,like I'd say, probably one of my
favorites.
Um, just for the wow factor, Iguess of it all um, and then Rio
was kind of like you know, yougo in there a bit more to do a
job.
I didn't actually, in terms oflike not just the games but my
competitions, that's really notranked that highly in like my
list.
I don't know what it was about,the trip, but it kind of just

(10:25):
felt for the whole team when wegot out there something was just
a bit off from the get-go.
When we got there, um and Ithink majority of our team would
say similar like I'd probablygive it like a five out of ten,
honestly, even though it was agames out of like all my comps
that I'd done.
It just don't know, it justdidn't have that vibe.
Whereas Paris, I think,especially with me, everything
that happened last time I neverknow which comp is going to be

(10:46):
your last and to just kind of beback and be selected and have
made the team, that was huge andI think I had to keep reminding
myself of that all the waythrough, like whatever the
performances look like.
However, this goes like just tobe here is insane after
everything that I've had to gothrough, and I think I really
felt that when I worked into thearena on day one.
Um, like I was tearing up, likeout the back and the girls were

(11:08):
like you're fine, I'm like Iit's, I'm just emotional, like
I'm not worried about the comp,but it's a lot to kind of just
take in after so much that hadhappened.
But I really enjoyed it and Ithink I went there trying to
take in probably more than Inormally would like take in.
All those moments appreciate,like it's crazy, like Ellie's
done four, I've done three games, but generally it's like a once

(11:29):
in a lifetime kind of thing.
So to know that we've been ableto do it that many times, it's
like you just cherish it evenmore because you don't know,
like you say, what's going to beyour last yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
I'm getting the goosebumps like literally.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
I'm getting like jacked up, like I still hear the
national anthem and I getjacked up from like hearing that
.
But when I hear other people'sstories of like, what, like,
like you said, it's insane to goto one.
Right, I have friends that havebeen to one and they said this
is the craziest like 16 years ofmy life leading up to this and
they were 20 when they went onthe guy's side and like they're
so moved, emotional, havingseeing people go through on the
medical side and the strengthand the consulting side, like

(12:00):
knowing how hard it is.
Like nobody sees how hard it is, like not even an inch, like I
would say maybe 5% is shown tothe public and then of that it's
distorted by, oftentimes, themedia and they hear what they
want to be said.
So when you see someone who'sgone through a bunch of ACL
surgeries or a bunch of issuesor a bunch of drama and then

(12:21):
they make it, it's like holyhell, man, like it's.
It's ridiculous and we willdefinitely come back to you two
being superheroes.
But the original spark for thisconversation was so, uh, nick
and I had been talking for along time about how the sport
has been changing quite a bit interms of ages and cultural and
stuff like that.
And every time I consult withpeople, or nick, and I talk to
people together, it's like, yeah, but look at how many examples

(12:42):
there are people who areactually doing it, right.
Like like it's easier to sayyou know one thing and then have
it not happen.
But like I think the averageage is probably like what, 2324,
I would say, across most of theteams.
But, like you know, I'm notgoing to divulge your ages, but
like it's ridiculous, you guysare superhuman unicorns that
have gone can be done, and notonly can it be done, it can be

(13:02):
done at the highest level, right.
And I think that that is where10 years ago, consulting wise,
you didn't really have a leg tostand on because it wasn't
really happening.
But you two are huge proof thatit can happen, and so I have a
massive amount of respect andgratitude for you for what
you've done for the sport.
But I wanted to kind of diginto that because I feel like
now things can never go back tolike, well, we got to rush
somebody along at 12 years old,get them there by 16.

(13:23):
And then, like we'll see whathappens and maybe they'll just
retire medically after that,right?
So, ellie, let's start with you.
Like, what do you think iscausing the last 10 year decade
shift of you know whether it'sculture or why we're getting the
age to kind of go up?
Like, what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, I mean, you're seeing it across all boards of
sport, and so it's just not onlygymnastics, but I think these
conversations that are happeningand it's like prioritizing
athletes, it's like humans first, like not just seeing athletes,
as you know, like workhorses,you know, like not like a
machine, basically, and yeah,you're.

(13:57):
I think also too, as the sporthas developed, you started to
see a lot more injuries orburnout, A lot of those
situations where it was like,okay, clearly something is
happening, clearly something'swrong.
Everyone is leaving the sportand they're unhappy.
You know there are so many, youknow, situations here where you
know we're now talking aboutsafe sport because it's such a

(14:17):
prominent aspect.
That is like, basically, it'sjust like we need to make sure
that we're doing sport in a safe, healthy way that's inclusive,
that is going to keep peoplewanting to be involved, whether
it's coaches, athletes, supportstaff, judges, you know.
And how can we develop thissport?

(14:39):
Lot of factors that go intothis shift of like looking at it
and saying, okay, now we're notlooking at peaking at 16, but
since the sport has grown somuch too, like we need to be
stronger, we need to be smarter.
Actually, having experience, um, and having competed a lot,
brings you a lot of um, it justgives you like a heads up, like

(15:03):
it puts you ahead because youhave so much experience to pull
on.
And then I think it's also justabout like more education.
Like you were saying, there isso much like science and
research now to back up like somany of these shifts in sport,
like strength and conditioning,nutrition, rest.
You know, like all of that, Ithink, is.
You know like all of that Ithink is is so key now as, like

(15:41):
the sport has shifted.
And again, like it's likecoaches educating themselves,
athletes educating themselves,Also knowing that coaches don't
necessarily need to take onevery single role, like you need
to outsource for that help, youknow you need to bring in
professionals who know thosedifferent areas, who have those
different skills that you canuse.
So, whether that is fornutrition or strength and
conditioning, educate yourselfon rest, how to build muscle,
like all of those differentfactors.
So I think there is just likemore science, more research and

(16:02):
more education happening.
But it's pretty cool to seethat shift and it's so important
with sport right now.
Um, but I mean, there I feellike there are just like so many
factors.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah for sure.
What do you think, becky,you've had a long road from your
first to now.
It's a little bit age gap there.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah, I mean everything Ellie said.
I agree with um, I think a bigpart really was it's education
for me.
Like, I think, until you cansee it, they don't always
believe it and I think from ourprogram perspective, from like a
British gymnastics side, therewas points where we had these
people coming in to try and helpand it was just a barrier for

(16:40):
so long to change and I justdidn't really understand it.
Like if we were winningeverything, I I mean it's just
not a great example, but youcould see why they wouldn't want
to change, but when we stillweren't winning, I'm like I
don't understand why weshouldn't.
We're not even trying thesethings and trying to trying to
branch out.
Um, but yeah, I guess, until youstart seeing it, like it took

(17:00):
for me to have my really bigelbow injury in 2017, I
completely shifted.
I had a lot of injuries priorto that, but it was the first
time I ever bought in properstrength in my arms and because
I had a long, it was a biginjury and I knew I was having
time out.
I was kind of like, okay, I'mgonna really try and hit all the
other body parts, take them abit more seriously, and I just

(17:20):
saw a massive shift like notjust in my performance but also
my body composition and how Iwas generally feeling and I
think, getting older but thenbeing able to do more.
That was really likefascinating for me to kind of I
guess, to kind of figure thatout.
And then it was kind of likehow do we get this knowledge out
more?
How do we get other people onboard?
And I think once people sawwhat I was doing and it was

(17:42):
working and actually somehow Iwas actually getting older but
actually getting better.
It's like okay, how do we?
How do we utilize this?
Really?
Um, and a lot of that, I wouldhonestly say, came from my
sports science and medicine team, like some of the best
practitioners I've ever workedwith, and I generally don't
think I'd be here today withoutthem.
They've taught me so much um,and I just wish that the program

(18:06):
as a whole would have taken onthat information when they first
came in, because it was therefor quite a long time before it
was then utilized.
And that's what is frustrating.
Um, I feel like in my veryyounger years, towards Beijing
time, we generally didn't knowbetter and I think, as the
culture of gymnastics, it's kindof just how it was around the
world and everybody had thosebeliefs, whereas I do think post

(18:26):
london kind of time, we got toa point where other disciplines
like ellie said, like othersports and then gym, certain
countries in gymnastics wereactually trying to take on all
this information and I think wejust stayed behind for so long.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Um, but to see it all kind of come into fruition now,
to know that I've been a bigpart of that change and
hopefully knowing they all havesuch a positive impact on all
these future athletes, is reallyexciting yeah, and I can only
speak to my own experience as acoach and not, you know, throw
throw grenades out the other waybut like I did a traditional
gymnastics coaching education,like preschool to rec to
pre-team and I'm a little olderthan you guys and I remember,

(19:02):
remember, like getting out ofgrad school and my my physio
degree in sports PT and I waslike I have never learned about
like metabolic conditioning orweight training or like proper
like mental health, nutritiontype stuff as me as an athlete,
but also like to teach my otherathletes as well, and I was like
a little bit like insecure ofthat Right.
So, in the order of like moreoptimistic is like I think
unfortunately there's not thereback 10 years ago there wasn't a

(19:23):
lot of great gymnastics physios, gymnastics strength
conditioning coaches, like Ithink of Dan, I think of Nick,
who are working with otherprofessionals all over the place
, and there's so many goodpeople.
I don't think those people wereaccessible back in the day
because I don't think there werea lot of good gymnastics,
specific people who understoodthe sport right, and so like
dorks, like me and some otherpeople came along and tried to
like talk about it.
So I think that's one part ofit.
I do think it's overwhelming,as Ellie said, like when you're

(19:44):
just coaching gymnastics.
Like it's hard to be, you know,a strength conditioning coach,
a mental skills coach, thinkabout nutrition, think about
dealing with parents andscheduling.
So I get that.
But the brutal reality is that,like there are for many people,
when they're presented with thatinformation, a lot of
insecurity might come up aboutlike, oh, I don't know that, not
naming names, but here in the U?
S, that was my experience whenI would introduce some stuff to
some people who are maybe of theold guard.

(20:06):
They were like, yeah, we don'tneed this.
And I was like, okay, I guessI'll just go back into the
corner and deal with the anklesprains.
Like it's like not really likereceptive.
So it's a mix of all of thosethings, but flash forward, I
will say now is lifting.
Everyone is doing proactivestuff like that.

(20:26):
So it's great to see.
Is there anything, ellie, onyour side that you would say
like was the thing that you like?
Once it started, you were like,okay, this is definitely like
I'm never going back to notdoing this, because I feel like
I need this all the time now.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
So many things.
You know, I was brought up insport by my coach, kg, and he
always was an advocate forbuilding strength and being
strong.
So for me, like buildingstrength and being, you know, a
strong athlete in the sense oflike physical strength, strength

(21:02):
, um, you know, that was alwayssomething that was like very
normal and like built into mylike everyday growth in the
sport and as well, like heactually told me like to go
source out, um, you know, amental performance coach, um,
especially as, because I was, Ihad a lot of fears when I was
younger.
I couldn't do anythingbackwards.
So he actually feel like had alot of those ideas and kind of

(21:24):
pushed us to help, like to gofind those things, because he
didn't know.
And he was like totally okaywith being like, hey, I don't
have these answers.
So like I want you to, you know, be able to go find those,
because I think these things aregoing to be really useful.
And so then flash forward toyears of, you know, finding

(21:44):
those little things and startingto figure out what actually
worked and whatnot.
And when I started working aswell with David, my coach now,
we were kind of involved withour local sport institute here
in the Atlantic provinces and wewere like, okay, we want to
make sure that we're, you know,working on being even stronger,
even quicker.
Like, okay, we want to makesure that we're, you know,
working on being even stronger,even quicker.

(22:05):
Like what are these extra fewpercents that we can get that
are going to help to, you know,be able to do those harder
gymnastics skills or reach thosegoals that we have?
And so one of those wasstrength and conditioning and
starting to go to the strengthand conditioning gym.
At that time it wasn verycommon, like, not a lot of
athletes were doing that and um,but we could, you know, track

(22:25):
our jump heights, we could trackour sprinting time, like there
were so many things that again,once you started to see um that
it actually worked like beckywas saying before, like it, it
really opens your mind so muchto like incorporating those
things.
So strength and conditioningwas huge.
I mean, I've been working withphysio and mental performance

(22:46):
since I was young in the sportas well.
But I work with um, one of ourphysios here locally, martha,
she does pilates, she's an osteo, she's also a physio and just
incorporating all thosedifferent views and little
pieces, like I would say thestrength and conditioning,
mental performance and workingwith Martha and my nutritionist

(23:08):
I could go on forever really,like all of it is so key.
So I mean I think it wasdefinitely super important, but
with my coaches actually beingable to be like, hey, I don't
have these answers, these arefactors that might be able to
help you.
Let's figure out a way for youto get that information, try it
out, see what works, see whathelps.

(23:31):
And then I've just kind of keptall of those things along with
me as I've developed in thesport, because you start to
realize, like, how actuallyimportant all those little
aspects are.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, and I think there's two things that are
important.
One is it speaks to thehumility of each person, right?
So like you're like shout outDave and Scott and everybody who
are like I'm not an expert inthis Can we find somebody who is
really useful and work together?
Like that takes an enormousamount of humility from what
five, six, seven people on ateam to be able to all say like
okay, I'm starting to stepoutside my depth here.
Let me find someone who's maybebetter at this.
But also to your point, thosethings and doing what at your

(23:58):
time when you started lifting,was so far against the trend of
what people were doing.
Like I remember working withathletes back in the day that
like, if it wasn't on instagram,from what somebody else was
doing right, an athlete on theteam right then, or whatever
like no, we're not doing that,it's not going to work out well,
versus being open-minded andlike well, like, let's give it a
shot, let's measure our jumpheights, let's see how I feel
after maybe six months.
People will give it a shot forlike a week.
I'll write a program forsomeone.

(24:18):
They'll give it a shot for liketwo weeks.
Like, yeah, it's not reallyworking for me and I'm like when
have you ever done anything intwo weeks?
And it made like enormousperformance changes, like that's
not going to work.
We need like six months of thisto really make a change.
So just wanted to highlightyour own involvement in being
open to that.
But what do you think, becky?
It sounds like you got into itfrom an injury point of view.
But what else on the docketthere was was things that over
the years you um very similar.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
I think nutrition is a big one, I think, especially
with the sport of gymnasticsbeing flipping upside down and
stuff all the time I'm actuallynot a massive eater, but it's
like that's not necessarily aproblem but how do we fuel in
the correct ways to fuel in andaround your sessions and, again,
working with expert people thatcan kind of give you that
advice and guidance?
Like I really wasn't educatedwell at all, I feel like many

(25:02):
gymnasts weren't for a very,very long time um, and that was
a really challenging part and, Ithink, actually really
dangerous part of our sport forway too long um, and it's really
actually encouraging to seethat change now.
I think that's probably one ofthe over everything, one of the
healthiest and biggest changesthat you're just seeing people
actually be able to have thatlongevity.
It helps with injury prevention.
But also just the athletes arecoming out okay of this process,

(25:25):
which is really nice to see um.
But yeah, for me the strengthand conditioning thing also
massive um, way too manyinjuries I think occurred
younger that were a bitunnecessary.
But I think, that's what hasenabled me.
It definitely is what's enabledme to be able to stay through
to this age.
Like, again, I wouldn't be herewithout my my S and C
practitioners at all and all thephysios and, I think, mental

(25:47):
health now as well.
Like just like Ellie said aswell treating the athlete as a
person.
I think that was a huge thing.
That came in again really latefor me.
I think I lost a coach around2015 type of time and my whole
kind of just how I was managed,I think, was shifted and just
having somebody that kind ofjust felt like they really cared

(26:08):
in like a different way and youcould be very open and you knew
that you're going to belistened to and responded like
that that's huge, whether that'swhether it's related to the
gymnastics or not, like there'soutside factors that you you can
be carrying that come into gymand it's going to have an effect
.
And I think having somebody thatcan take on that role of just
being understanding like youdon't need to be an expert in
the field as such, but just tobe able to be understanding of

(26:30):
your athletes is huge, whateverthe issues are, whether it's a
positive they're coming to youwith or a negative, and you work
through it together like it'sultimately a partnership and it
didn't feel like a partnershipfor a very long time of my
career and to be able to becomean adult in this process and now
have people that they are likeyour work colleagues and
partners and and I'm friends aswell like it's.

(26:51):
It's an incredible environmentto be in when it's handled the
right way and I'm reallygrateful I've stayed in it long
enough to see this shift andkind of be a part of that and
end my career or come towardsthe end of my career feeling
really happy about where thingsare at.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, well, be a part of it.
It's one thing, but you have toremember that people can't
change unless they see a rolemodel they want to look up to.
And you two are both shiningexamples of, like a lot of young
people around the world, Ithink, had the courage to try
something different, to thinkabout mental health, to think
about nutrition, to startlifting weights, because you
guys post about it and you showabout it.
So I feel like you should patyourself more on the back for
being a reason it happened andnot like along the wave of the
ride.
But yeah, there's two thingsthat come to mind.

(27:28):
One is I remember when Dave andEllie came on the podcast the
first time, dave was talkingabout how, like when he was
growing up, you know the, theinterpretation or was like oh,
we have to squeeze all of likethe, the juice out of the lemons
, like we have to be hard, wehave to go push, push, push.
It has to be a more of adictatorship.
And he was like I don't want todo that, he's like.
He's like if that's gymnasticscoaching, he's like that's not
what I want out of this, likeit's like the human level,

(27:56):
ethical thing.
But I think you guys have shownin many others have shown that
like, not only is it not howpeople perform better at work in
like life and health, so likeI'm really happy to see that,
like people have had the couragecoaching wise, I think is a big
part of it to see like no,we're not going to do that and
there's actually a better way.
That's that's more helpful inthe long run.
Because I think to your guyspoint, if you can stay healthy
and enjoy the sport, that's howyou get more years, right, like

(28:17):
if you want to go to the gym, ofcourse it's hard, right, it's
always going to be hard andchallenging, but you have to
have some genuine love for goingto the gym and the grind and
the push and like wanting to doit, or else you're not going to
make it.
And I can tell you from ourside that like 75% of the
injuries in gymnastics from ourdata is overuse.
It's like people roll theirankles things happen, of course,
but it's the same thing that'salso going to increase your

(28:44):
performance.
Like the science is prettyclear on, you run faster, you
jump higher, you can land morelandings without getting hurt
and things like that.
So it's good to see.
Um, I think the coaching stafffor sure needs like the shout
out, especially Ellie.
I know Dave and stuff like that.
You needs a shout out here tooas well, because obviously he
has had a big role in helpingguys as well.
But what role does coachingplay?
Maybe let's start with Ellie onlike we touched a bit.

(29:06):
But like in that longevity, inthat kind of like for right,
when you have a 12 year oldwho's really good and you're
like thinking this person mightmake it to 30 years old, like I
think that changes yourperspective on things quite a
bit no-transcript communication.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
Like communication is a huge one for me.
Um, we can talk about anything,um, whether it's like we're
having some issues or there'sfear, or what the goals are.
Like communicating, becausesometimes the coach and the
athlete, their goals, aren'taligning and that's where
conflict comes.
And again, like what you wantout of sport, like who you are

(30:13):
as a person, what, what you'redoing the sport for, what you
want out of it.
Um, you know, I think that'shuge.
And then it's the coach's roleto try and help you to get
whatever that is out of thesport.
So it's not just assuming like,oh, you're going to go to the
Olympics, this is what we'regoing to do.
You know, maybe maybe thatathlete doesn't actually want to
do that, maybe they just lovewhat they do and they're happy

(30:34):
to stay at the level thatthey're at.
Maybe they do want to go to theOlympics, like how?
So I think it's just thatcommunication, daily
communication of how you'refeeling, what you think you can
handle.
Coaches have such a big role inour lives and so, like Becky
said, to have a really goodrelationship, to feel
comfortable, to feel like youcan talk to them, no matter what

(30:56):
it is, I think it's a huge partof being able to collaborate
with the coach to be able to dothat, but and yeah, the coach
just to have an open mind on youknow, not every athlete is the
exact same we all have adifferent timeline, we all have
different body types, we allhave different strengths and you
have to be able to work withevery athlete.
Yeah, we all have differentgoals.

(31:17):
You have to be able to workwith every athlete, um, and kind
of almost have a clean slateand be like, okay with this
athlete, what do we need to do?
What are the goals we have?
How is that going to work?
What is that going to look like?
How did they learn?
How do we communicate?
And with someone else it'sgoing to be completely different
.
And I think that's like also agood coach, as well as to be
able to know that.

(31:37):
You know, not every athlete isgoing to need the exact same
things.
Not every athlete is gonna needthe exact same things.
Not every athlete is gonna havethe same path or the same, um,
you know strengths, weaknesses.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
So just to be able to be flexible and kind of like
work with every athlete onwhatever their path is, yeah, I
got a little distracted thenbecause I was thinking about how
much do we have to pay dave forhim to be the next person?
Does your choreography or maybesome of your artistry like what
amount of money d is that?
Is that dollar sign look like?
Probably pretty high.
Maybe it's a baguette, maybeit's a nice homemade baguette is
all you need in this life.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
I see a couple boxes of cereal.
He's a simple man.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
He's a simple man, yeah.
And the other piece, the otherpiece you brought up, is just
thinking back to, like you know,individual goals and
communication, especially whenyou're younger.
I feel like man that changeslike by the day, by the week,
sometimes by the month.
Like I primarily work with,like 13 to 18 year old, right,
and the women's artistic side,and like we like halfway through
the season somebody would havea completely different goal, let
alone I wanted to go to college, and now I don't really like

(32:38):
when I was 12, I wanted to be ina rock of like do you still
want this?
Is this still what's going on?
The biggest problems I see,whether consulting side or
medical side, is when what aparent wants, what a coach wants
and what a gymnast wants arenot communicated about and
they're changing but no one'sactually discussing it.
Right, like you know, girlmeets boy, girl wants to do more
social than gymnastics andeverything changes for the
college scholarship goal, right,like that's a reality of what

(32:59):
happens sometimes, and soconstant communication, I feel
like, is the most the easiestway to not have things jump up
at the end of the year or likewhen an injury happens, someone
doesn't really want to go back,so just my two cents.
But becky, what do you thinkanything else to add on there?

Speaker 2 (33:11):
um, not too much.
I mean, my personal coachingsituation's been so up and down
throughout my career.
Like I had a uh, I'd say aphenomenal technical coach when
I was younger, from about nineuntil how old was I so I don't
even know how old I was in 2015,21-ish type of age and then
when I lost her, I actuallymoved to a coach or was taken

(33:32):
over by a coach that was thatdidn't really have the knowledge
at all, to be honest, for thelevel of athletes that me and
Ellie were at the time.
But the difference was just thedifference in personalities
between my first coach and then.
This coach was so different.
Like my older coach was superfiery, even though she was so
good with the technical, which Ithink I've learned incredible
amounts from just the way it wasdelivered a lot of the time I

(33:54):
didn't believe was necessarilythe right methods, whereas this
other coach didn't have thetechnical but was just super
kind, really caring, and justthat was a real big shift and I
think that was a shift thatEllie at that time really needed
.
She needed somebody to beunderstanding, needed someone to
be caring and, to be honest,she probably wouldn't still be
in this she's not now, but atthat time she wouldn't have
stayed if it wasn't for thatswitch, whereas for me I felt

(34:16):
like I felt a bit lost intransition for a while.
But then I'd say, from thatkind of point, it's a really
abnormal setup.
But I've actually kind ofcoached majority myself, which
is really just not a thing thatmuch in gymnastics and I think
as gymnasts have got older, theytake more ownership, but
generally most athletes are ledby a coach, whereas for this,

(34:37):
especially this whole last cycle, I actually chose to move gyms
after everything that happenedfor me in 2021 to a coach that
has not really had many highlevel leads at all and I
generally moved because of thehappier environment for me and
from the get go of moving there,like I programmed myself, I
type my programs and I send themto my coach every week and like

(34:58):
that's.
I was doing it for a really longtime.
But I think the sport is so Idon't know.
We've always been so coach-ledfor so long.
It took a really long time forpeople to get what I was doing
and believe that it was me andand trust me to do it.
I think like I was challengedon that on a national level for
so many years, um, and that wasreally difficult.
When I was at home I had fullcontrol, was doing what I felt I

(35:20):
believe was right, and thenwhen I'd go to a different setup
, everything changed and thatwas so hard to deal with.
And I think most athletes thathave that coach as the advocate
the coach is the one that hasthose difficult conversations or
can be that person and theathlete just trains, whereas I
was kind of in that dual rolefor a really long time and that
was really difficult.
And it's so nice to be fullymatured in the sport now and be

(35:43):
at a point where, especiallycoming to this games, I've
prepped for this games like Iwould never do for a games ever
in my career.
Um, I did my whole prep fromhome.
It's the first time I've everallowed that ever to be done, um
, and everything was on my terms, which I mean I don't think it
needed to take that long.
I think it is a partnership andyou work with people and
there's definitely a big team ofpeople that I do draw on for

(36:05):
sure, like, um, if I'm everstuck with something, um, then I
know the right people I can goto, whether it is that
nutritionist S&C, but my actualpersonal coach, jen at the time.
Like she, we just got on.
I think that for me, havingsomebody that generally really
cared, that actually really tookthe time to understand me as a
person, um, I would say like Igenerally wouldn't still be here

(36:28):
at this point in time if itwasn't for her, and I think that
kind of just shows that it'snot all about the technical,
because it was never about thatwhen I moved to that gym.
Um, and I think some of thework I've managed to do in this
later end of my career has beensome of the best work I've
managed to produce and it's beendone in such a unique and
different way I think it's givena lot more people insight into.

(36:48):
Actually it's there's not onlyone or a couple of ways that
this works, like we've done thisso differently to the norm, but
it didn't not really work out.
And that's not to say that thatwill then work for every other
athlete, but I think it istaking that time to know your
athlete.
What works for one, like Elliesaid, doesn't work for everyone
and everyone should be treatedas an individual, whatever part

(37:09):
comes into their, like gymnasticperformance, and ultimately,
again, you've got to have thosesame collective goals, and how
you get there might look alittle bit different, and that's
OK.
It's like not to be frightenedof that and not to stray from
the norm, and I think I wasalways brought up that that
wasn't okay.
It's like you do it a certainway and if you don't do it this
way, then you can't perform orit's not going to work, and I
think that mentally played on mymind a lot of the time too.

(37:31):
When you are trying to dosomething different, you feel
such a different layer ofpressure, like actually, if I
don't perform, this is going tobe the reason or they're going
to say that this is the reason,and for such a long time like I
think, I kind of believe thatand it took me, I think, until I
moved to Jen in 2021, so muchhad happened for me.

(37:52):
By that point.
I needed a clean slate and Iwas like I trust what I'm doing,
I believe it works and I don'treally care what anyone else has
to say, I'm going to run withit and I think it was one of the
best decisions I ever made.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
And to your point.
The thing that sticks out forboth you and, I think, in my own
life and other people's is likethat classic quote of like
people never remember, like whatyou say or what you do, but how
you made them feel.
And I think that is like one ofthe biggest take home messages,
I hope, from both your storiesand I think of Luke and Reese
too.
Like Luke and Luke Carson fromIreland.
Like I just remember seeingLuke and him go through like the
highest of highs and the low,like, particularly like lowest

(38:20):
of lows and like the highest ofhighs right From.
Like having a devastatingmoment and then having an
incredible moment Right.
But like I think people saythat's easier to do when you
have athletes that aren'tcompeting for such high stakes
and at such the Olympic stage.
But like that truly is what itall comes down to is like you
two, both in myself and others,have gone through moments with
athletes where it is like justlike the worst, it's the worst
possible.
You train so hard and you wantit to go well and it doesn't.

(38:41):
It just doesn't go the way youhope it did.
And then there's other timeswhen it actually you nail it and
it goes exactly how you want itto.
And like, as a coach, you haveto be willing to separate the
human from the performance andremember that, like, no matter
what time still goes forward andyou're still going to be with
that person.
Like, and I can think of somecases where I've worked with
coaches in situations where theyunfortunately just mush them

(39:01):
together and they put theperformance ahead of the athlete
and they do things that they'renot happy with later down the
road because they scream andthey're all upset it's your
fault, I can't believe you woulddo this.
And blah, blah, blah.
It's your fault.
And then, like, that athletenever wants to talk to them
again, they never want to goback and it's such a devastating
like bad taste in your mouthto's like you're, it is what it

(39:22):
is, man, like it's justgymnastics.
Like, and I think that that'sthe assumption is that because
you're at the Olympics, becauseyou're doing that, that's like
off the table and we do whatevermeans necessary to get a
performance.
And like, what a terrible wayto look at the world, right,
like to look at it in general.
And of course, I think theSimone and her situation lasts,
and that's a devastatingsituation to have to go through
and to have people who have yourback when it all comes the
other way.

(39:42):
It's really good to have and,knowing the medical side of USA,
I'm very proud of the peoplethat were helping her along the
way.
But that is what it's about,right?
When you zoom out, it's likethis is all going to be
eventually under the water andwe're going to have to still be
human level performances, right.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, and I think for me growing up, where it was so,
the lines were so blurredbecause you actually don't know
any different and you arerelying on those adults to guide
you and educate you in thecorrect and healthy way.
Um, and I think now that yousay you've got that actual
research, there's so muchknowledge out there and again,
like Ellie said, go and sourceit.
If you don't know, like, don'tbe afraid to go and source it or

(40:22):
say that I don't know.
And over time, I think, just asmuch as the mistakes for me
have been in some ways reallyhard, it's taught me so much and
long term, I'm just superexcited to coach because I feel
like I've learned so much andI've actually really missed as
an athlete having that stablerelationship with a coach from
small kind of going through,because my career is just not
panned out like that, but seeinghow important that person is

(40:45):
with the coach that I have nowand actually like feeling like
happy and secure and like safein a space, it makes a huge
difference.
Like there's a lot of factorsthat come into this and when we
talk about those one percents,it is maximizing those one
percents and everybody beingtowards that common goal and
being okay as well if it doesn'twork out.
And if it doesn't work out, whydidn't it?

(41:05):
You learn from it.
It's not always a bad thing.
It doesn't feel like the bestthing at times I'm sure Ellie
would agree when you go to acomp and it just all comes
crashing down, but what youactually get out of that
generally is so much more thanwhen it just goes well and you
draw on all of that and youlearn what then not to do next
time, or how do we, how do wemake it right?
And it's a learning process andthat's all part of the journey

(41:27):
as well well, sometimes it'slike there's no actual like.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
Yeah, there might be a reason why it didn't go
exactly the way you plan, but,like, gymnastics is really hard
what we do is really hard.
you can try and do everything toyou.
You know the smallest, finestdetail.
You can do everything possibleto try and have the very best
preparation and have the resultthat you want.
And sometimes it just doesn'tgo that way.

(41:53):
And I think, yeah, having thatrelationship with your coach and
that communication with yourcoach, like for them to
understand that and know that, Ithink is huge too to be like
sometimes we know what happenedand sometimes stuff just happens
Like it's life.
But, you know, to be able tocome back and be able to be like
, hey, even though maybe thisdidn't go exactly as we planned,

(42:15):
you can most times, uh, take somuch more from that and use
that to get better and use thatto, you know, hopefully, put
yourself in a better positionthe next time.
So it's not always like youknow this was the worst thing in
the world.
Why did this happen?
We've taken nothing from thisand this is going to, you know,

(42:36):
put us back.
Like most of the time there'ssomething to learn, there's
something to take from it.
And I think also the coach too,like as you get older in the
sport, like giving the athlete alittle bit more, you know,
space you start to get to knowyourself better, you start to
get to know what you need, andit actually gives you that
chance to like figure out whoyou are as a person, what you

(43:00):
can handle, what you can'thandle, how you learn from.
You know the ups and the downs,and I think, yeah, just like
what Becky said, like puttingher in the position of being
able to program for herself,actually having the confidence
because she probably had a bitof space to figure out what she
needs, to believe in that and tobe like okay, yeah, this is
something that I need to do formyself and I still have the

(43:21):
support.
But, especially as you getolder in the sport and you're an
adult, you know, like I thinkthat's it's such a huge factor.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, and I think there's an important piece as to
and Nick taught me this reallywell which is that like,
especially with younger athletes, but maybe when you are
training and stuff, I thinkpeople misconfuse, like hard and
mean right, and also like howyou can be a good person and be
kind with your delivery butstill have like kind of
guidelines, expectations, thingsyou have to get done, like kind
of still have a regimentedapproach to it, like and I've
watched Nick coach live he'svery calm and he's very

(43:50):
collected, but he's also like wehave stuff to do.
You know what I mean Likethere's, there's like we have to
be here at this time.
We have to get this done.
This is the work required, andI think there's a very like Dave
, I've seen, is very good atthis too as well.
There's like an art form to likehaving expectations and
guidelines but not being meanabout it or being cruel about it
or being berating in the wayabout it, and I think that is
really maybe the sweet spotthere of like, okay, you have,

(44:11):
and this is what it takes forsafety.
I think more so, but alsobecause it's hard.
It's hard and it takes a lot oftime.
So can you speak maybe to thatlike, because I think a lot of
people would say like, yeah,easy when you're 30, but, like
you know, like I work with 14year olds, right, who are like
in the chalk bucket the wholetime and are trying to
constantly talk more so than twowell, it's.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
It's funny too because it's like an
accountability or it's like youknow it's a's a commitment.
And so my coach, like KG andDavid, like it's always like you
know they're committed to beinghere to help you, to try and be
at your best.
So your commitment is to showup and try your best and
communicate with them.
You know, if there's somethingthat's like kind of taking you

(44:51):
away from that, but I think,like that's one of the biggest
things, is like you build thistrust and you trust that the
coach is there for.
And again, I say, this is built.
You have to build this trust,but you, yeah, you have this
trust and communication that thecoach is going to help lead you
to.
Whatever those goals are thatyou've communicated, whatever

(45:12):
that path is going to be.
And, yeah, like it doesn't haveto be done in a way that is
mean or berating, it can be donein a supportive way.
But also, you know, justreminding you that you know this
is the commitment.
This is keeping you accountableto what you're showing up to do
and what you're here to be, andyou can be flexible with that.
Some days you show up and youwant to be doing exactly what

(45:33):
the plan is saying and for somereason that may not happen, we
can be flexible, we can fix that, but again, knowing that it's a
two sided street, it's a twosided relationship.
So when you know the athletesare coming in, if you have these
goals, learning and knowingthat you know that is going to
take conditioning, that is goingto take repetitions, that is

(45:54):
going to take practice, that isgoing to take focus, that is
going to take repetitions, thatis going to take practice, that
is going to take focus.
You know like all those thingsare important to be able to help
you to reach that and that iswhat you've communicated.
That's the coach's job to beable to help you to do that.
So, just like reminding themthat it's like a two way street
and you're both kind of keepingeach other accountable to what

(46:15):
your roles are and how thatcollaboration works as you work
towards those goals.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah, becky, any thoughts there?

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah, I love that term of just having that
accountability from the athleteside and the coach and I think
one of my favorite phrases thatI really want to bring forward
into coaching more, because Ifeel like we're in this weird
transition of the sport whereeverything is changing but I
feel like the lines are all abit blurred as to like how much
can we push, how much should be,and like it's.

(46:42):
I can imagine that's reallychallenging as a coach, but I
think from an athlete's point ofview and I guess as being a
mature, older athlete, I wouldsay to coaches just be confident
in your programming and yourwork, like if you, the athletes,
aren't going to buy intosomething that you're unsure of.
So you've got to be able todeliver that confidently.
Explain the reasons like I'm anathlete that's always loved to
know the why.

(47:02):
If you can tell me the why,then I will try pretty much
anything that you ask me to do.
If there's a valid reason kindof behind it and method and
thought.
Um and again, it's having thatbuy-in and I think the phrase
that I really do believe in islike discipline is not
punishment.
There's a really big differenceand you have to be disciplined
if you want to become one of thebest athletes, whether that's a

(47:24):
county level, a national level,an Olympic level and those
different levels do takedifferent levels of
accountability too.
So it's what level do you wantto be at?
What are you prepared to workfor?
And it's nothing's going to comeeasy.
It's.
There's going to be hard days,for sure, and especially in our
sport there's a lot more harddays than probably good.
But it's learning to workthrough those hard days and that

(47:46):
partnership that's what getsyou there together and you kind
of.
It's not always fun, but you dolearn to like, love the grind
and enjoy the graft, andespecially when you then start
to see that that hard work isactually paving away and getting
results, like that's ultimatelywhat you're working for.
But it's certainly not going tobe easy and I think it is
difficult for coaches at thispoint in time, with the sport

(48:06):
shifting how it is, knowing howmuch to push.
But you can push and I thinkpushing and having discipline is
great.
Like you say, it's the deliveryof how that is done.
And, again, certain athleteswill need they'll need different
levels and, as a coach, youneed to be able to know that
this athlete doesn't needpushing in that type of way
because that's not the levelthey're ever trying to get to,

(48:26):
whereas if you are trying to getto a much higher level again,
you've got to have thatconfidence and communication
with the athlete for them to buyinto it, and it's a partnership
and you work together.
So I think that part of oursport now is going to take a
little bit of time, um,especially with, like new
generations of coaches thatyou're going to see over this
next 10, 20 years like learningto coach up and coming, coming

(48:47):
through, and but there's, it'salso a really exciting journey
as well, so not one I think theyshould be afraid to take on.
Like, like, welcome it withopen arms, as I was trying to
say, and there's so manyresources now that you can draw
on, which, if anything, thatmakes it even more exciting.
Like your bank of knowledge iskind of a bit unlimited at this
point, like there's informationand knowledge everywhere to draw
on, which I think is reallyexciting.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
Yeah, sure, and I think you know, speaking from
experience I used to definitelybe when I was younger, like in
my twenties, like early 25s itwas like the yelling and the
pushing and the kind of hardlike driving lines.
I thought that's what it took.
And then you spend time withgreat coaches and gymnastics and
others and you realize thatit's really not about that, that
like I don't know, aside fromlike a toddler running in a
runway like I don't think I'veyelled in the last like 10 years
, just because there's no,there's no like room.

(49:31):
A big part of this with youngerathletes is teaching the
principle of like naturalconsequences and how choices
lead to like consequences, goodor bad.
And I think that's the way youframe it is like, well, we make
choices and choices have good orbad outcomes depending on how
many of those choices you make.
And if you want to skip out onconditioning and show up kind of
late and be in the chalk bucket, like that's your choice, but
like that your bar score isgoing to reflect that in six
months, right, and I think thatthat's the hard part about

(49:53):
coaching is like controlledfalling.
Sometimes it's like not asafety issue, but letting
someone make choices that maybeyou're not going to pan out well
for them.
And then when that momenthappens where they they get a
seven and they're like okay,let's reflect back on the last
six months and let's figure out,you know maybe, where, you know
where all those little choiceswe made about all these
conditioning assignments or allthese things and we weren't
doing our assignments or issueswe had.
But also framing thatpositively too.

(50:14):
When somebody absolutelysmashes it and they have, they
do all their conditioning, theydo their assignments, they clean
up their drills and they, theyabsolutely have a great
performance you still stop andreflect on like well, this is
the reason because you made alot of positive choices that
influenced the outcome.
It doesn't always go your way,but you were doing all the
things in your control to make apositive choice towards your
outcome.
And I think that's reallyimportant to teach young
athletes about how, like, theyare really the one driving the

(50:34):
steering wheel right.
You are helping them, you areguiding them, you obviously are
their knowledge base, but theyare ultimately doing it and
that's their choice for theirgoals.
And the more that I alignedtheir goals with their choices,
I found like it was easier forme to step back and not get all
riled up about the wayperformances went.
So just a piece of partingadvice there.
But, yeah, anything else on thisbefore we scooch on, I think we
kind of covered this one prettywell.
Yeah, so we have to stop andtalk about, I think, something

(50:57):
that's the most impressive aboutboth of you, right?
So you both have had an insanenumber of challenges, injuries,
personal life inside the gym,gym changes, like you name it,
right, like I think you two,among many others, have an
incredible amount you'veovercome in the last, like you
know, 10, 15 years, and Ipersonally, watching from afar,
I'm always baffled by how youcontinue to go to the gym Like
I'm, like I'd be under a blanketright With my hot chocolate.

(51:18):
Like you know, in my my, mycancer Well, and I would never
go back to the gym again.
But I just want to give each ofyou a platform to maybe share,
like how in the world you getthrough Cause again, I think the
older you get, the more youtrain by to physio, you're doing
the extra work, you're stayinglate like and to get up every
day and be like all right, Igotta do this again for four
more years, every day for fourmore years.

(51:39):
Like what the hell man?
Like that's crazy.
So, ellie, let's go first withyou and then Becky.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
I mean, yeah, like you put it like that and it's so
true though.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, Multiplied by by four cycles, like 16 months,
I was like what?

Speaker 3 (51:52):
Literally no, but I think the main driving factor
for me is, at the end of the day, I really do love the sport and
I love what I do and I thinkthat is just what keeps me
coming back.
And it's a sport, too, whereit's continuous learning.
There's continuous ups anddowns.
It's definitely never dull.

(52:13):
It's never a dull moment, but Itruly do love what I do and I
love, you know, the platformthat gives me to hopefully have
an impact in the sport and onyounger generations, females in
sport and as well, like theopportunities you get from it.
You know, being able to travel,make incredible connections and

(52:34):
, yeah, again, just likehopefully having an impact.
But I think it's just thatpassion and love for what I do
that continuously kind of keepsme coming back to the gym.
And it is hard, like there areso many obstacles we've had to
overcome, so much adversity.
We'd have faith and I think, atthe end of the day, like there
are times where you have to do alot of it alone, and it's that

(52:56):
passion but also those goalsthat you have, and also like
coming back and being able tojust see your personal growth
and see how much you've beenable to overcome and show how
like, show yourself how strongyou truly are, whether that
means you do, you know, get overit in the sense of what you're
hoping to get out of it, orsometimes that pivot you know

(53:17):
turns into something else.
But I think, just sometimesit's like, you know, you learn
so much about yourself throughthese obstacles and through this
adversity and it's like showingyourself that you're going to
be okay, no matter what that is,and you're going to be able to
get through it.
And I think a huge thing for meis like surrounding myself with
those people who are yoursupport system, whether that's

(53:40):
your family, your coach, yourphysios, you know your friends
outside of the gym or in the gymif you've had teammates.
I think it's just likemaximizing that support system
that's going to help you,especially when those times are
tough, when you feel very alone,when you need a shoulder to
lean on, and you create so manyconnections again throughout the

(54:03):
rest of the world that you know, even if I do feel alone here,
I've got so many people like Icould call up Becky and I can,
you know, talk to her, we canconnect.
Whatever it is like, you buildthat support system.
So, even so sometimes, if thatsupport system isn't directly
there with you, I feel likethere's that network that you've
built and I think that's thecool thing about gymnastics and

(54:26):
the evolution in the sport nowis like you can do, that you can
connect with athletes aroundthe world in different sports
from different countries andkind of collaborate and lean on
each other, whereas, like I feellike you know, 10, 15 years ago
, wasn't really a thing.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
It was kind of like do we look at each other, other
coaches watching, are we goingto get told off?
And like we don't really knowwhat to do exactly so yeah,
exactly so, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
For me, I think that's that's just like part of
like what you know keeps yougoing and what helps.
And it's definitely not easy atall times, especially as you
get older in the sport and thereare now a lot more athletes
following in those footsteps,but there are still only a few
of us, kind of at this older age, you know, going through that,

(55:17):
and so I think it's reallyimportant to find those supports
around you yeah, absolutelyBecky.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (55:24):
pretty much exactly the same in terms of just the
love that I have for it.
Like I don't know, I think it'salways been instilled in me and
I imagine, ellie, the same fromsmall.
Like I'm sure you've had manypeople say that people just
aren't built like that, likesome people just don't, and it's
just so natural to keep comingback and it's hard to sometimes

(55:44):
explain what it is, but you justknow that that's what you feel
like you're meant to do, and Ithink the fact that the sport is
now given us a platform and a Idon't know just like a position
to be able to build our livesaround our sport as well, like
we can actually like afford tobuy homes and, you know, do all
the things that you would do,get in a different industry as

(56:05):
such, but actually being able tostill do the sport that we love
, and I don't think that wasalways the case many years ago
either, so it kind of peoplewere kind of forced to quit
because, you know, life kind oftook over.
Um, so, again, really gratefulthat I've been able to stay in
this transition, to be able todo both and, um, I think the
biggest thing for me, though, isthe learning like I've even

(56:26):
from quite small.
I feel like as much as I've beenan athlete in the gym, I've
just been a pair of eyes andears and like I just want to
soak everything up, whether it'swhat the coaches are saying,
practitioners, whoever it isjust learning and honestly I
just feel like the bank ofknowledge that I now have, like
I'm so excited to teach becausethere's just so much and I don't
think I would have, I wouldhave half the amount if I hadn't

(56:47):
been through all the struggles,like if I just, you know,
trained and performed, Iwouldn't have learned, I
wouldn't have learned half asmuch from that Um, and it's
definitely not been easy.
I think some of it isdefinitely some of the hardest
things hopefully I ever have toprobably go through in my life
over the last couple of years.
But I can say, like thelearning that I've managed to
take from it, um, yeah, it'slike I can't ever replace that.

(57:08):
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to you know, at the
end of the day, when you're byyourself and you're just, you
know I love this, you know thisis my sport and I love
gymnastics and I want to beinvolved.
I think my favorite quote is,like Tom Bilyeu says, the only
thing that matters is how youfeel about yourself when you're
by yourself.
So like it doesn't matter whatthe fig says or people say about
your scores or who says what onsocial media.
Like if, at the end of the day,when you're by yourself, if you
, I feel like a lot of peoplekind of sometimes need to block

(57:33):
the noise out and just figureout what do I want and like,
what do I love and what'sexciting to me, and like just
this little bubble of cocoon ofthe people who support me.
I should hang around you guysmore.
And if you know, gymnasticsTwitter X whatever is probably
the biggest cesspool I've everseen in my life.
Man, I hate that place.
Like gymnastics Twitter is sobrutal on you guys, sometimes
all together on my businessaccount, because every time I

(57:53):
log on it's like not good job,great performance, you trained
four years for this, so happywith you.
It's like score, score this,that Slow motion replay of your
leg man.
It's like, bro, shut up, get offyour couch and stop being so
mean to people.
It's so cruel.
So, side quest there, stopdoing that.
People on Twitter.
But yeah, so last section, uh, Iwant to give you guys the kind
of platform is this one episodewill definitely be listened to

(58:15):
by quite a few people onFederation, international bodies
, things like that.
And I think it's important toalways ask you guys about, like
looking back now in your career,like if you had a magic wand
and you could change something.
Because I think that out of aquad, the only time people are
going to make the large,sweeping structural changes will
probably be in the first sixmonths.
So they want to try addingnutrition, mental performance,
whatever.
They want to change the waythey coach or whatever.
It's only going to happen inthe first six to twelve months

(58:37):
of a quad and then it kind ofturns into the machine again to
get ready for the next quad.
But becky, let's start with you.
If you had a magic wand orbillboard that every fig would
change in the snap of a finger.
Is there anything that youwould love to see change in the
sport?

Speaker 2 (58:47):
oh gosh, that's such a hard question, um with you,
give you more time to think.
I think, I think just still,the biggest thing that I see,
that I think is still reallyproblematic is just not
communicating enough with theathletes and like I feel like
90% of the time whenever there'san issue like it's just because
things were poorly communicated, and for me that's so

(59:09):
frustrating, it's like why don'tyou get it yet?
I don't know it's just maybebecause I've been on the athlete
side of it for so long and Ithink being able to become an
adult and be able to I'm in abit of a weird role now like
being able to advocate as moreof an adult.
But yeah, I'd just saycommunication, like even with
small children, like theygenerally do know what they want

(59:30):
, like you know if you likesomething or if you don't like
something from a very young age.
So it's like ask them and, Ithink, building that
relationship where they feelcomfortable to tell you whether
it's a difficult conversation ornot.
If you can't communicate, thenthings go nowhere.
From my side, anyway, yeah, Iknow, ellie.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
besides, everyone needs a baguette class.
What do you think they need?

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Right, everyone does need baguette in their life.
So that's probably number one,um, but honestly, like it's it's
just something that we likekeep bringing back to the table,
but it's like working on makingsure, like the athlete's safety
is the first priority.
So that's like making sure thatyou communicate and the

(01:00:14):
athletes' voices are heard.
Again, like Becky said, youngones usually know exactly how
they're feeling.
Maybe they need to learn how tocommunicate a little bit better
.
You need to kind of readbetween the lines a little bit.
But, especially as you getolder, like athletes' voices
need to be heard.
Communication doesn't alwaysneed to only solely go through.

(01:00:34):
You know, only the coaches oronly your parents give it to
everyone.
Let's have an open conversationhere, let's have, you know,
like let it be transparent,basically keeping it transparent
, um.
And then it's also just likeputting, yeah, again, like
athlete safety first priority,whether that's in training or
it's also in competition,because you know we talk a lot

(01:00:57):
about, you know, back home inthe gym, all these things we're
trying to do, and then sometimeswe come to a competition and
it's maybe not set up in the waythat is actually going to help
the athletes to have their bestperformance, to feel the best,
to feel the safest.
So, again, in competitions, howcan we kind of keep developing
to make sure that the athletesare?

(01:01:19):
You know, we're putting theathletes safety first, um, over
other aspects, and we are seeingshift in that and we have seen
a shift in that, um, you know,especially with event finals and
getting a one touch, um, Ithink that's been huge, but I
think there are still steps thatwe can move towards, um, you
know, through the sportorganizations or governing
bodies, to be able to find, youknow, a little bit of a better

(01:01:42):
balance there.
And then, just in general, like, yeah, having that open mind,
maybe let's not overwork all ofour athletes, because we want to
create sport where we haveindividuals who love what they
do, enjoy it, leave the sportfeeling like they feel fulfilled

(01:02:03):
, they got a great experience,they really enjoyed whatever it
was in sport that they got fromit, and they want to stay
continued or stay involved andcontinue with the sport after,
whether it is coaching or maybeyou do become a physio and you
want to come back and work witha sports team or right, whatever
that is.
So I think it's just, you know,continuing to move it into the

(01:02:25):
way that we want the sport to besomething that is so great, a
great learning experience, agreat experience in general.
Everyone comes out of it,whether it's at the grassroots
level or the highest level,feeling like they took something
away from sport that they aregoing to use for the rest of
their life.
They're going to stay connectedin sport and it kind of Becky

(01:02:48):
just touched on this and in theprevious question but creating,
continuing to kind of create anavenue for adults in the sport,
because now we are seeing adultsstay a lot longer in the sport
and how can we support them?
In some countries we get a lotof great support.
In other countries we don't.
For some athletes it's reallyhard to be an adult in sport to

(01:03:10):
have bills to have to pay, to beable to do it all on your own
and especially as you get olderin the sport, maybe you're
utilizing a lot more of thoseyou know different parts of your
team around you.
But for our governing bodies tobe like how can we invest in
these athletes to help them tobe safe, help them to be you

(01:03:32):
know, continue what they need tobe able to stay in the sport,
to continue competing for us,and I feel like a lot of the
time that's lost a little bit inthe sense of we're wanting to
stay around, we're wanting torepresent, we're wanting to
still do this and we don't havethe support to be able to do it.
So it is kind of moving in thatway.
But some of us are very lucky.
We do have sponsorships and,and you know, amazing people

(01:03:54):
around us who want to support us.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
But, um, some athletes aren't in that scenario
and maybe they would love tocontinue with the sport and they
can't no, just I'd say one morething to add as well is like I
guess something I use a lot formyself is also remember your why
, like why are you doing it,whatever methods, that is,
whatever role you have, whetheryou're a performance director,

(01:04:16):
whether you are the nutritionist, whether you are, you know,
whatever part of that team whatare you bringing to the table
and why are you bringing it tothe table?
Not just because you thinkthat's what needs to be done, or
like.
I think if you know your whyand your reasons behind it, then
it just changes everything somuch and you can be confident
whether that decision then doeswork out or doesn't, because you

(01:04:36):
, you really did think itthrough and that at the time is
what you believe, like is whatis is going to be needed, kind
of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
And I think my round of applause.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Snap, snap my two cents to wrap this up.
I think an important note isyou know, working with a lot of
athletes, I think on thecoaching side, the strength
conditioning side, the physioside in particular and having a
lot of friends who work on theother side of not the athletic
side, is, as you get older, yourealize that in order to keep
the athletes as safe as possibleand to make the sport better
and to to stand up for change,you really have to have a spine
to make some really harddecisions.

(01:05:09):
I think I've been in asituation where, you know,
somebody comes to me with aninjury or a situation or
whatever, and you know, I knowin my mind that the answer I
have to say is not a popular oneand that people don't want to
hear it and it involves notcompeting or having a different
route or whatever, and it'sreally hard to take.
You know, take some arrows forthat when you know it's in the
athlete's best interest, becauseyounger athletes in particular
I'm talking like 16, 18, 20, whoare in the throes of a college

(01:05:32):
scholarship or making nationalteam or their first assignment
they just want to do it, theywant to go yes All the time.
Whatever it takes, I'll do itDoesn't matter.
I can defy the odds, beat theprobabilities, and I'm the
number one cheerleader for that,don't get me wrong.
But like science and biology,don't lie man, like you're not
going to get back after you teara sale in two months, like it's
just not happening.
And so person in me, the coachin me, knows that, especially on

(01:05:53):
the coaching side, you knowthere's times when you have to
just kind of put the line in thesand for the athlete safety
long term, even if they're nothappy with you in the moment.
Or if you educate them andeverybody around you, the
parents, are not happy.
Like that's really important.
And I think the people Irespect the most I can only
speak to the U S here is likethe people who are making really
positive changes had a hadquite a strong spine in the face
of some people who are really,really intimidating and it's uh,

(01:06:14):
I was very proud of them forthat.
So, yeah, that's just my lastfew senses.
It takes courage sometimes toreally move the sport in a
different direction, like onedegree at a time, but everyone
keeps making some harder choiceswhen it's the right thing to do
.
I think we'll get there as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
So one of the quotes that I really love, or that I
found not too long ago, was thatum, brave leaders aren't silent
around hard things.
And that really stuck with mebecause, like you say, if you
want to make a difference, it'snot always going to be easy, but
you at least have to try, andyou have to voice it.
And it doesn't always go yourway, but if you don't try, then
you're not going to know theoutcome.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
So yeah, that's great .
How, how philosophical for usto end here.
This is very nice.
So I want to give you guys eacha platform to kind of share
what's going on in your life.
What do you have next, besidesfancy boats and croissants,
ellie?
What do you got going on withyour life?

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Yeah, so I'm actually heading off to the US.
I'm joining the Gold RiverAmerica Tour with Simone and.
Melanie and the US team.
So I'm very excited for that.
It's going to be a greatopportunity.
Just to you know, enjoygymnastics.
Gymnastics, show our joy for it, hopefully inspire, you know,

(01:07:19):
everyone who comes to see it.
Just to, yeah, feel that they,they are enough, what their
goals are is unique and you'rejust like special in your own
way.
So I'm we're really, reallyexcited for that.
I'm looking forward to it.
It was an incredible experienceand opportunity, especially to
get to know a lot of those otherathletes so much better after

(01:07:40):
the Tokyo game.
So that's kind of next on thedocket for me, so I'm just
really excited to be a part ofthat again.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Nice.
Hey, when you're in Boston, ifyou have eight seconds, we'll
give you a Boston tour.
We'll make an adventuretogether.
I'll show you Boston.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Let's go.
I'm there for two days.
Let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
I'm there for two days, let's go.
Let's plan a day.
I'll get you the best cannolion the entire East Coast in
Boston, italian downtown, soshout out Mike's cannolis.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Anyways, Becky, what do you have going on in your
life At the minute?
Just enjoying downtime, I thinkjust catching up on all the
things that I feel like I'vemissed for so long, like seeing
friends and family, like havingthat time, if opportunities come
in, to take up thoseopportunities and not have to
say no all the time.
Um, and it's really hard to geta new to the fact that I don't
have, to like, be training allthe time.
That's really difficult actually, like I'm trying really hard to

(01:08:26):
just prioritize, like me forthe first time, and probably way
too long, and like even down tolike, unless I have to be up,
like you don't need to set analarm, it's okay, like let your
body sleep in those kind ofthings.
So, yeah, the minute, nothingtoo crazy.
Um, I'm really excited topotentially like look into my
coaching journey and we're kindof looking at first steps of

(01:08:47):
that, even though I have, Iguess, kind of started it a
while ago.
Um, but how I'm going todevelop that and start
conversations around that.
So, yeah, lots of conversations, I think, but not too much
action.
Just, you know, seeing wherethings are going to go.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
So blank space is good.
Blank space is good, all right,cool.
Well, we'll wrap it up there.
I have to say thank youprobably from me and a thousand
people listening that that yourtime and your expertise and your
wisdom is very, very welcomed.
And yeah, I mean I could sithere and fangirl over all you
guys, but you know the amountyou guys have done for this
sport collectively over, youknow, 40 years together.
Whatever else it is isridiculous.
Like you guys really haveinspired a large people behind

(01:09:19):
the scenes like me, who arebeing trying to be agents of
change and convince people tooverhaul the way they do things
or start lifting or use mentalhealth.
Like it's easy for me to pointto you guys as examples.
Like you know what those ellie.
You know that bad girl I thinkshe's got something.
So like it's helpful for me tohave a.

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