January 8, 2025 • 45 mins
Ever feel like culture’s splitting into countless micro-worlds where everyone’s just vibing to their own thing? In this episode, I introduce my theory on the "Jazzification of Everything." Drew and I dive into how our subcultures of music, entertainment, and even personal obsessions have evolved into these aging communities, totally detached from the cultural monocultures of the past. Whether it’s metal fans in their forties or electronic music lovers growing older with their favorite DJs, we explore how the media landscape and algorithms have encouraged us to stick to what we know—and why this shift could be both a gift and a curse.
We also dig into why “premium mediocre” is taking over our consumer habits, and whether or not that’s actually a bad thing. We discuss how these tiny, exclusive-seeming trends might be fooling us, offering superficial luxuries instead of anything truly valuable. We cap it off with a big question about whether chasing after anything is worth it, or if we’re just dooming ourselves to disappointment. Give it a listen. Enjoy.
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Chapters
00:00 Mark has a theory...00:24 The F*ck of the Week: The Jazzification of Everything22:11 Brilliant or Bullsht: "Premium Mediocre"38:03 Q&A: Why chase anything at all?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I've got a theory drew and it itstarts with music, but I think
it kind of explains everything. Everything.
Everything ever. OK, not everything, but most a
lot of things. Bear with me.
We. We haven't got a brilliant or
bullshit yet. We just started.
Just started. Just started It's the Subtle Art
of Not Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson.
(00:25):
I've actually, I've gone to a number of concerts recently.
One of them was a metal show. So I'm a big fan of a band
called Lamb of God. Shout out to Randy, the lead
singer. He's a fan of mine.
I'm a fan of his. He was cool enough to invite me
out to his show, got to hang outwith him and everything.
It was fun. You know, I was a big metal head
when I was young and it was interesting going back I, I
(00:46):
hadn't been to a metal show in probably at least 6-7 years and
it was interesting going to a metal show again.
I'm in my 40s. Most of the audience was in
their 40s, some in their 50's. The bands were all in their 40s
and 50s. Everybody was middle-aged.
Everybody looked like they you could probably catch them
(01:06):
driving a minivan and taking their kids to soccer practice
during the week. And it was really interesting
because I had a similar experience.
I went to an electronic show, maybe two or three weeks later,
same thing. I, it's funny that one I went to
and I was a little bit insecure.I was like, it's going to be a
bunch of kids on Molly and shit and like, I'm probably too old
(01:28):
for this. Nope.
Sure enough, like half the audience was probably at least
my age and and they seem to be aging up.
So here's the theory. I I think of it as the
jazzification of everything. The.
Jazzification of everything and hear me out here.
OK, so when we were young, jazz was lame, and I didn't really
(01:54):
develop an appreciation for jazzmusic until I went to music
school and I was forced to studyit.
And then once I started studyingit, I realized like, oh, this is
really intricate and cool and creative and there's all this
cool stuff going on. What I also learned at music
school is that jazz was cool as fuck in the 40s and 50s,
thirties, 40s and. 50s OK, yeah,yeah.
In fact, fun fact, the word coolcomes from jazz.
(02:19):
Yeah, it's the invention of cool.
There's actually a Miles Davis album called The Birth of Cool.
Anyway, sidebar, Being a jazz fan as a young person in the
2000s, it was incredibly lonely and isolating.
I would go to jazz shows. First of all, they're in tiny
clubs that held like maybe 50-60people.
(02:39):
And it would be like me, two other music dorks, and then like
a bunch of 60 and 70 year olds. And it was just like, it was
sad, especially because the musicians were some of the best
musicians I'd ever seen in my life.
And it, it, it was this weird thing where like, OK, it had its
cultural moment. And then rock happened and
television happened and pop happened and, and, and you know,
(03:03):
the mainstream culture just passed it by and kind of left it
alone. But there was this very intense
cult following this, this group of people that grew up with it
and they never left it. And they just loved it forever.
And at the metal show I was like, wow, metal is becoming
like jazz. It's becoming the next jazz,
(03:23):
right? And then I went to the
electronic show and I was like, electronic feels like it's kind
of becoming the next jazz. And then I started thinking
about every show I've been to and everything I've like, not
just music wise, but like the video games that I'm into or
the, you know, the movies and TVshows that I'm into, like every
(03:47):
form of media and entertainment.There is a small group of super
mega popular hits, right? You have like the Taylor Swift
and the Mario and Fortnite and you know, the, the big Marvel
movie or whatever, but everything else is like jazz.
(04:09):
Everything else is a small subculture of highly dedicated
fans. Unlike in the 20th century
where, you know, everything was a monoculture.
There was everybody's watching the same 5 channels.
So it was like, you know, in the70s disco was in and then in the
80s disco's out. Now everybody's into rock and
glam, you know, and then by the 90s glam is out and everybody's
(04:31):
in the alternative and everybodywould kind of just jump ship to
the next thing over and over. We don't have a monoculture
anymore. So now everybody has their own
little jazz that they're into almost exclusively from
everybody else. And it's their little
subculture. And and you age together, right?
Like I was a metal fan when I was 20, I went and saw Lamb of
(04:55):
God. Now I'm 40, I went and saw Lamb
of God. If they're still playing when
I'm 60, I'll probably go see Lamb of God, right?
Like it's the we age through together, the artists age with
the fans and and it's, it's a completely different dynamic.
It's like a balkanization of culture.
Yeah, you, you saw this too. Like in the 2000s, when nerd
(05:18):
culture kind of started to take over, too.
And there was you, you talked about this with David Brooks a
little bit, the atomization of culture that we have.
And I think is that part of it, do you think?
I think that's part of it and I think there is.
So there's two dynamics that arereally significant.
One is, is the atomization. So it's like everybody finds
their own little subculture and they're like niche, niche, niche
thing that they're like really into and they've got this little
(05:39):
community online that they interact with.
But the other thing that's changed is that you age through
life with that culture. Again, it's it's not like you
change, change out for the new fashion and the new music every
five or six years. It's you're.
Stuck in it. Yeah, it's like, it's like the
band you were into in 2010 you're still into in 2025 and
(06:00):
you're going to be into them when in 2040.
And like, like I'm noticing thiswith our audience too, right?
Like it's, it's when I started out, my audience was around my
age. They're in their 20s and early
30s now. My audience is in their 30s and
40s. Like we're aging up together.
And the same way my interest change over time, their interest
change over time. And we we just kind of grow
(06:22):
together. And when I think about my
favorite music, my favorite art,my favorite video games, my
favorite like. Movies or whatever.
Yeah, film makers, it's similar,you know, it's like we age and
develop together. I don't find myself jumping
ship. I don't find myself being like,
oh, well, I was really into Nintendo five years ago, but now
(06:42):
I'm into Fortnite stuff. Right.
Like it's, it's, it's like, no, you the thing I was into when I
was 15, I'm like still into now.And it just has evolved with me
over time. That what what explains that?
That is weird. I think it's.
Is it the media landscape? I mean, that's obviously a big
part of it. I think so.
(07:03):
I think it's there's no monoculture.
So I think there's two things simultaneously. 1 is, is that we
tend to whatever we like when we're like say 18 to 25, we tend
that just kind of like seems to cement itself in us for the rest
of our lives. That's part of it.
The other part is the media landscape is personalized.
So it's like everything is algorithmic.
(07:24):
Everything is designed to like, if you like metal music, here's
more metal music and if you likeshooter games, here's another
shooter game. And it, it's like people don't
really because there's just an abundance of everything.
Nobody ever. There's no scarcity driving you
to go find a new thing. Yeah, yeah.
Is that crazy? No, I, I think I've seen it too.
(07:46):
I've also seen it like if I lookat people who are slightly older
than me as well and I see them, you know, there's some of them
who look like they're dressed upgoing to a metal concert all the
time or they're dressed up like they're going to see, I don't
know, in a Lil affair or something like whatever they
were listening to back then. I don't know.
So I, I think I've seen this as well.
(08:06):
I haven't really put the put a name on it like you have here
though. I think the the jazzification of
everything. The jazzification.
Of such a terrible name. It is.
It's terrible, but. We'll work on that.
We'll work on that one. But I think it, it, there's a,
as with everything, there's a cost and benefit to everything,
right? So the benefit is, is that you
get to grow and evolve and age with your favorite media and art
(08:32):
and entertainment. The cost is that we lose that
monoculture, right? Like we, we miss those cultural
moments that it feels like everybody's a part of.
Like when you and I were kids, you know, Michael Jackson would
do the Super Bowl and it was like everybody was paying
attention. Everybody, everybody cared.
Everybody was talking about it. Today, there's not really
(08:54):
anything like that. Like the closest thing is maybe
Taylor Swift the past couple years.
But it's like, even though I know her numbers are higher
than, you know, the numbers of other artists from 30-40 years
ago, but the cultural impact doesn't feel the same.
Like it doesn't feel inescapablethe way you know somebody like
(09:16):
Michael Jackson or Michael Jordan was in in the 80s or 90s
because you literally only had like 5 TV channels.
You couldn't. Be completely oblivious to it
like you could today there. There was nothing else to watch
or do, so you had to watch and do the same things that
everybody else was watching and doing, which had a side benefit
of making it feel like we were all participating in the same
(09:37):
cultural moment. Cohesiveness to the culture all.
The time. Yeah, I.
Do agree that that's a there the, the, the benefit side of
that though, is there are more people who feel at least
somewhat included or, or seen, you know, in some ways like, oh,
I can go find this, this scene of mine and and be in on that at
the cost of a larger cultural cohesion.
Yeah. Second thought, here's my fuck
(09:58):
for the week. The new bunch of concerts
recently, the fucking phones, dude.
It, it kills me. It kills me.
Here's the thing I noticed, and this is what I want to talk
about. I kind of understand because I
do it a little bit, but I'm alsojust confused.
It was very interesting going toa a bunch of different shows and
(10:19):
like, like most concerts, you know, there's a couple openers
and then there's like the, the kind of the sub headline act and
then there's the big headline act act.
And it it was interesting watching the people around me,
of course, fucking phones in theair all the time.
So fucking annoying it. Was really interesting because
in in the in the Super early opening acts that nobody had
(10:42):
ever heard of them you didn't see any phones no phones.
Everybody's actually watching the show and thinking about
like, that part was kind of good, or like this song's OK.
You know? As the axe got a little bit more
popular and people got more intoit, the phone started coming out
more. And then by the time you got to
the main headlining act, people just had phones in the air the
(11:03):
entire time. When I went to the Electronics
Show, the headliner was like a abig name DJ and there was a guy
next to me who at some point I actually thought he was live
streaming the show because his phone was out for a good 30 or
40 minutes straight. And finally, like I kind of like
craned my neck back and looked and it's like, no, he was
(11:24):
recording just a video. Just a video.
I'm like, dude, you're literallyrecording half the show.
And to me there's like there's something paradoxical there of
the more meaningful the moment, the more people remove
themselves from the present moment by pulling out their
phones. Yes, which kind of makes no
(11:44):
sense. But then it's like also very
like every concert or event I goto, this is what happens.
The more meaningful the moment, the more everybody just whips
out their phone and turns into alittle filmmaker and removes
themselves from experiencing themoment.
Explain this to me. Help me out.
You're true. I don't, I, I, I don't, I, I
don't use my phone in that way, but I do experience this in a
(12:06):
some different ways. Just very recently, I was
standing on my back porch and I have this, there's like this
beautiful little hay field across the street from my house
and like a couple little mountains and stuff.
And it's to the West. So I get really pretty sunsets,
you know, And I kind of glanced down.
I was like, oh, it's really pretty sunset tonight.
Immediately grab my phone, walk out on my back porch, take a
picture, look at it. It sucks because it's the the
(12:28):
picture. You know, and I.
Just turn around and I walk inside and then and I got inside
and I'm like, what the fuck am I?
I'm going to go enjoy the sunsetfor real.
And so I, you know, go back out and I enjoyed the sunset as it,
as, as God intended it, as it were.
And so I mean, I, that's a smalllittle sliver of the same type
(12:48):
of thing, but it is you, you, you look at that screen after,
you know, whatever it is, like aconcert or a sunset or whatever
it is, and it's just never as good.
Do you put the phone right back in your pocket and just walk
away or do you sit down and and enjoy?
That's that's what I've trained myself to do is be like, ah, put
the phone away and just enjoy this so.
I thought about, so I, I actually thought really hard
(13:08):
about this because I do occasionally pull out my phone.
Like for instance, when the headline act comes out and they
like start playing their big song or whatever and the crowd's
going crazy. Like, yeah, I'll pull out my
phone for 1520 seconds. Be like, oh cool, let's capture
this moment here. And I, I asked myself why like
what is the impetus there? Like what, why what it what
(13:30):
scratch am I what itch am I scratching?
And the conclusion I came to is that because it feels like a
special moment, I want to be able to remember it and relive
it at some future point. And my sense is that it's really
all I want to do is just captureenough that I remember how it
(13:52):
feels to be here. And I can get that in 20 or 30
seconds. Because in the past 20 or 30
seconds, I'm now removing myselffrom experiencing the moment in
the 1st place, right? So now I don't have a memory.
If I like sit there and record for 30 minutes, like the guy
next to me, I no longer have a memory of the moment because I
spent the whole time recording. But then then I asked myself,
(14:14):
I'm like, OK, let's think about this for a second.
Out of all the concerts, all thefucking sunsets, like how many
times have I ever gone back through my phone and actually
looked at this stuff and and satthere and been like, wow,
remember that show? That was such a cool show.
I never do that ever. Like maybe once every three
(14:36):
years I'll go back and look at ahandful of things, but it's it's
very rare. So I don't know, it just seems
like the effort reward is completely off here and well, do
you think? Do you think that people who are
pulling their phones at concerts, like, do you think
they're thinking that same thing?
Like I want to remember this later, 'cause I I'm not sure
that's what it is. I.
(14:56):
So. I think it's I want to post
this, I want to post this on social media so I can be a part
of this jazzification of everything and show that I'm a
part of it. Is that that's?
A huge part of it so I I it's funny because I spent like half
of this show just sitting there and like watching people trying
to figure out why they were doing this they.
(15:18):
Weren't watching the concert in the moment, which is why you
were just like I was ignoring. The concert so I could figure
out why the fuck these people were recording the concert.
There was a lot of Instagram going on for sure.
There was a lot of that going on.
There was also one thing I noticed too, is that drunk
people were doing it a lot more,which is interesting.
Yeah, I noticed the drunk peoplelike the selfie thing, The.
(15:42):
Oh, my God, this is the best moment of my life.
Like there drunk people. The phones were out constantly,
constantly. There's a group of drunk girls
in front of us. And it would like the amount of
selfies. It it reached hilarious
proportions. It was like, I don't think you
guys got enough. I think.
I think you got to get another one.
Let's go for #81 All right, Yeah.
(16:05):
I think there is some sort of social signaling thing going on
with social media. But then it's like, I think
about the guy recording like 30 minutes.
I couldn't help but think it wasalmost like that.
This is going to sound really condescending, but it it with
some of the people, it felt likethey were afraid to just fully
(16:25):
enjoy it. Like it was a way for them to
feel like they were enjoying it without having to expose
themselves emotionally, without having to like lose themselves
and and lose control and show like how excited or ecstatic
they were. It was a way to but.
(16:45):
They don't have to acknowledge the the the temperamental nature
of it. You don't have to acknowledge
the fleeting nature that this isn't going to be here in a
second. And so I need to somehow
reconcile that they're. Definitely.
Like I couldn't help when I was watching people, I couldn't help
but feel like there was like some sort of weird avoidance
thing going on, which again, strikes me as so strange.
(17:08):
Like you spend fucking hundreds of dollars, you get nice tickets
to a show and then you just spend half of it looking through
your phone. Well, we.
Just had I mean, we had near I all on recently and he kind, you
know, he brought up the term which other people use as well
the the digital pacifier. So to me, this is, this is, this
is the concerning thing, right? It's like it's never been easier
(17:28):
than ever before to alleviate discomfort.
It's always in our pocket. And and that that alleviation of
discomfort does not will reiterate it.
It does not just happen in painful moments.
It happens in joyous moments as well, which is, which is
arguably an even bigger problem.Also the jazzification of
everything is in its own way, a,an avoidance of discomfort,
(17:52):
right? Like it's there was and, and now
maybe I'm just waxing nostalgic,but I, I do remember pre social
media, pre mobile phone, there was when the culture shifted,
when it's like the new trendy music changed.
It kind of forced you of like, OK, well, this is the new thing.
So you need to like start getting used to it and learning
(18:15):
it and understanding it and at least decide if you like it or
not. And I think as long as we all
live in our own little kind of cultural bubbles with the thing
that we've loved for decades andwe're going to love for the next
few decades, and we don't ever have to like change our minds
about it or try new things. We kind of lose that cultural
(18:36):
discomfort that that like being nudged or or pushed into
experiencing different things or, or different, different
stuff that maybe isn't that we don't necessarily like the first
time. I.
See. So you're saying we we age with
that as just that this is our comfort lane here, that we're
going to age along the this thissubculture?
(18:57):
Yeah. Like I, I don't feel like I
remember when I was again in music school, right?
Like I had no interest in jazz and then I was forced to
understand jazz from an artisticperspective and I started really
appreciating it. I had very similar experience
with the with hip hop at a certain point and I had a
similar experience with electronic music at a certain
(19:19):
point. These days, like I don't, not
only do I not feel compelled to like go try to understand like a
different sub genre of music, I just, I don't even get exposed
to other sub genres. Like I don't even know if there
are other sub genres of music being invented anymore.
Like I haven't heard anything new in at least 10 years.
Like I, I can't remember the last time I heard something.
(19:41):
I'm like, wow, that's different and.
There's a good chance it's because you've been siloed off
into this metal, EDM it. Jazz, this weird, this weird
melting pot taste, but like, yeah, part of it is being
siloed. And then I think part of it is
that because everybody's siloed,the the game for the artists,
(20:02):
for the creatives is to milk thelong term relationship and not
innovate. And not do the new thing, not be
the new person, right? Not invent the new sub genre.
It's capture people when they'reyoung and then just age out with
them, Yeah. Over.
Decades and decades. Yeah, I think you see that.
(20:23):
I mean, you've kind of always seen that, I guess with certain
bands, maybe not whole entire genres or anything like that,
but you've seen that, you know, there's always that tension
between doing what's worked for me creatively versus.
Trying. Something new and.
And the kind of destruction, destructive nature of
creativity. Yeah, there's always been that,
(20:44):
right? Yeah.
I don't know. Anyway, I don't know where we
land this this. This was weird.
This was weird. This was weird.
I like it well. We'll be back with another weird
theory right after these messages.
(21:05):
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solve that giraffe mystery. All right, we're back.
I'm excited for this. Brilliant or bullshit.
This. This was one that I put on the
docket. This is an old, old theory.
Well, it's not that old, but probably 10 years old or
something. Internet.
Age. It's old, yeah.
By Internet years it's quite old.
Old blog called Ribbon Farm had a an article about a concept
(22:34):
called premium mediocre. And ever since I read about it,
it's one of those ideas, it's just stuck in my head ever
since. And there's probably, I probably
never go more than six months without something happening in
my life. I'm like, oh, this is totally
premium mediocre. Yeah.
(22:54):
So give us a brief synopsis of what it is.
Yeah. So Venkatesh Rao, he, he wrote
the I think that's how you say his name, right?
Venkatesh Rao is it Rao? Yeah.
I think that's how he says damn.Yeah.
He wrote this blog post in 2017 called premium mediocre.
What Premium mediocre is it describes product, services and
lifestyles that appear exclusivebut offer only superficial
(23:16):
luxury or quality. OK, so it has an irrelevant
touch of premium that doesn't really improve the essential
mediocrity of the experience or or product.
Let me give you some examples. OK, Something that he he used
anyway. Cupcakes and frozen yogurt like
OK. Truffle oil that's not made from
real truffle, OK. That's a great example.
(23:36):
That's a great example. He he also uses avocado toast
that that's a special case, but it's still premium mediocre
certain types of lettuce. I thought that was great.
Like, you know, it's obviously iceberg lettuce is not premium
mediocre, but like, what's the leafy green?
I'm blanking completely on it. I have no idea.
(23:57):
Oh. That what's that one kind of
lettuce? Yeah.
You don't eat vegetables too? I don't cook my own food.
Certain types of lettuce, yeah, K pop popularity in France, you
know that the list goes on and on.
You spot these things once you start, once you understand what
premium mediocre is, you spot. Them the thing I always think of
is the pumpkin spice latte pumpkin.
(24:18):
Spice lattes because. It's it's like seasonal.
It's exclusive. It's only available for a
limited time and it's just a fucking commodity.
Like fast casual dining, like a lot of, you know, maybe Chipotle
was like an early version of it,you know, But now I don't know
if you ever go to Cava, like, oh, I love Cava.
It's like this big chain restaurant that's supposed to be
(24:39):
healthy Mediterranean. It's premium it.
Goes on and on and on. So, but it's a fun concept.
He plays with it for a little while, but I love how the the
the philosophical depth that he goes with it is really
interesting because. Yeah.
His. Explanation is, is actually
really interesting, which is that, you know, 100 years ago,
200 years ago, access to things was scarce, right?
(25:00):
And so the way you improve society and the way you sold
things and made money is that you just got access to things.
It's like, OK, we'll we'll go dig up the oil and we'll sell it
to you or we'll go, you know, mine the ore and we'll sell it
to you or we'll grow the lettuceand sell it to you.
At a certain point there, there became an abundance of stuff.
And I think his argument is thatas the first generation that
(25:24):
grew up with an abundance of stuff, that the first
generation, the millennials in particular, who were no longer
impressed by the simple access to scarce things because there
is no scarce thing, millennials demanded something else that
felt scarce and special. And So what companies started
doing is they started essentially putting like
(25:47):
luxurious packaging on boring commodities.
Mediocre products, right? So.
It's instead of just being a coffee with a little bit of
pumpkin spice in it, it's a exclusive seasonal pumpkin spice
latte with an extra dollop of, you know, serve the way you want
it. You know, because you deserve a
special morning at Starbucks. Like all, it's got a little
heart drawn names written on thecup like it is the most premium
(26:11):
mediocre thing in the world. It feels it is completely
designed to to feel like a special exclusive experience.
And it's just that it's a cup ofmediocre coffee.
And when you look around, you see this all over the place.
You see it at sporting events, you see it at, you know, VIP
(26:32):
access to certain concert venues.
You see it, you know, being a a premium.
Economy seat on a plane premium economy.
That's a perfect example that isthe most.
Premium mediocre seat on an airplane.
You can you see it in subscriptions?
The the things like magazines, you know, you can get the like
(26:52):
the digital plus, which is essentially you're just paying
more to have a piece of paper sent to your door.
Like it's the same thing you would have paid for anyway.
But like, you know, they, they just add a A+ at the end of it
and send you a bunch of emails and you're supposedly like
having a, a more premium experience.
It's, I think it's, I think it, it is both the cause and the
(27:17):
effect of a lot of the jadednessof the 21st century.
It is the effect in the sense that humans crave scarcity
because our perception of value is based on scarcity, of course.
And so when most things in the world are no longer scarce,
marketers, business people, theyhave to create a perception of
(27:39):
scarcity. The problem is, is that people
aren't dumb. And on some level, you know,
that the pumpkin spice latte or the avocado toast or the digital
Plus subscription to The New York Times, there's nothing
premium about it. It's like the same fucking
thing, just with a fancy name put on it.
And you, there's a certain amount of cynicism that
(28:02):
develops. And he talks about that as well,
that there's just like a deep, the, the, the most defining
quality of the millennial generation is their cynicism.
And, and it's like it, a lot of it is generated from this sense
that everything is a little bit of a lie, like nothing is
actually what it's was promised,right?
We know it, but we're also playing along at the same time
(28:23):
too. Yeah, he points that out as
well. And it's funny there.
I mean, there again, the list goes on and on the premium
mediocre vacations, it was funny.
I was just in Spain on vacation and there are whole sections of
Madrid and Barcelona and Ibiza that it it.
You might as well just put on Google Maps, like circle it and
(28:45):
put on like premium mediocre tourist area.
It's like everything is designedto feel exclusive and special
and cater just to you, and it's like people are just herded
through like cattle and things. Premium mediocre things tend to
be overpriced. I think that's another cause of
the premium. Price on it?
(29:06):
Yeah, Yeah. Like, there's this, there's a
disconnect between the promised value and the actual value,
Right. And I don't know, I just, it's
one of those things. I remember reading the article.
I loved it. I was like, wow, that's so
clever. And then as the years go on, I
just keep seeing it more and more and more.
I would argue we have premium mediocre politicians.
(29:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you again back, if you go
back and watch debates of like, I don't know, Reagan and Bush or
Clinton and Bush, you see very smart, educated, well rehearsed
men who clearly studied and thought deeply about policy and
(29:50):
can explain their policy positions and argue against each
other's policy positions coherently.
If you look at our politicians today, it's just a fucking word
salad of emotions and essentially just telling us that
we're special and they're special and we're all going to
be special together 'cause we'reall premium mediocre together.
(30:12):
Yeah. It just, it feels, it feels ever
present. Yeah.
I would argue most media like Netflix, most Netflix shows are
premium mediocre. They are the same story,
regurgitated and new packaging that feels exclusive and special
and unique, but it's really justcliffhangers and hooks and
audience manipulation and that. Movie theaters, think about
(30:35):
that. Modern movie theaters, Yeah,
like they now they have these like fancy seats and which.
Aren't really that fancy? They're not.
That fancy, but you're paying, you're paying.
Like $30.00 for it. Yeah, yeah, definitely premium
mediocre. We live in a premium mediocre
world and it's yeah. And I'm a premium mediocre girl.
(30:57):
In a put that on my. Tombster, Old OH.
God, Venkatesh, though, he, he, he does connect this to like the
larger kind of economic forces that are behind it.
So he says premium mediocre is it's aspirational to some
extent. The two, even though we know
it's mediocre, even though we'restill participating in it and
playing the game, it's aspirational.
(31:19):
And we're trying to at least signal that, hey, we're trying
like we might not be able to buya house right now, but I can
afford a nice pumpkin spice latte and an avocado toast.
But he also kind of windows thatdown to a, a certain
demographic, what he calls Maya Millennial.
OK, He's got Maya Millennial, Molly Millennial, Max
Millennial. They're kind of just three
(31:40):
different segments. And Maya millennial is all about
the premium mediocre. She knows she's, she's indulging
in it and it's OK because one day she's going to have the
real, the real premium, right? Whereas like a Maya millennial,
who he calls kind of like the artist wing of our, our
generation and economic bloc, I guess, is kind of resigned to
the fact that they're never going to be, you know, rich.
(32:01):
So they're just going to, they're going to work at the,
the coffee shop or art shop or whatever it is and, and do their
thing. Max Millennial, on the other
hand, he went to Silicon Valley and he's trying to make it and
he's making premium mediocre products is what he's doing.
Backpacks, you know, or some piece of software that's
supposed to, you know, whatever it is in some sort of premium
(32:21):
mediocre packaging. I.
Think I, and I think he talks about this too.
I think that the the key characteristic of a successful
premium mediocre product or service is that it effectively
kind of dupes you like it signals the people that you are
aspiring. You know, I think we work as a
(32:41):
great example, especially since what's happened in the last five
years. We work as it's literally just
deaths yeah, in in overpriced real estate, right, like it did.
There was like nothing rational about that business model and or
new or new and and everything that was promised and packaged
around it like like you're not just joining a Co working space,
you're joining a community and we're like striving together and
(33:05):
we're going to build a new worldand blah blah blah.
It it, it's it's like the core of premium mediocre, but there
was a hot minute, you know, probably three to five years
where it was cool to be part of a Wework, you know, and it's it
like signified of like, oh man, he he's got like a Wework desk.
Like he's, he's working his ass off, he's grinding on weekends.
(33:26):
You know, like it signals to people like you, you're on your
way up. But it ultimately it's, it's a
little bit of an empty lie. He's not trashing premium
mediocre necessarily. Obviously there's problems with
it, but he he counts himself among the people who partake in
premium mediocre. Of course, do I do all the time
too. And you know, there's a
difference between premium mediocre and middle class fancy
(33:48):
that he talks about. And there's, you know, all of us
have, you're going back to we have these arcs that we kind of
get into, these lanes we get into.
And I don't think he's really necessarily trashing it.
He's just pointing it out and observing it and that there's
larger cultural forces around it.
That's his point. Absolutely.
And I, I think it's, it's like many things, it's, it's not the
(34:09):
issue, It's the aware, the lack of awareness around it that's
the issue. Like if you aren't aware of the
game you're playing, yes, then it, the game is a problem.
But if you're aware of the game,then it's and you like playing
it, then play it. You know what?
I think is a problem is the focus on creating all these
products or services that are premium media.
OK, so go back to the Max Millennial, you know, wants to
(34:31):
be an entrepreneur and so and, and thinks he wants to take over
the world by making a, a whatever it is, a back back
company or whatever it is. And I saw this, I think about
this time. So this was 2017, I think when
this first post on this, he's posted about a lot, but he
started in 2017 posting about it.
And about that time I remember thinking, God, are we going to
make anything useful? Like, like, you know, there's
(34:52):
all these apps were coming out, all these like weird products
that were solving a very like minor problem in our lives or
something that that we're going after some minor convenience.
And that was kind of a premium mediocre thing.
You still see it today, though, too.
You see it with can we stop withthe fucking headsets like and
(35:12):
the glasses? I was.
Just thinking about the vision Pro vision.
Pro and the meta, whatever they call it.
What's the meta of? The what do they call it?
It starts with an O, Yeah. It starts with an O Jesus,
whatever it's fucking called. But then they just came out the
glasses too. You say you came out these like
nerdy looking glasses like theseare high tech cool.
I'm like, nobody wants this shit.
(35:34):
We want you to like solve some real fucking problems here.
And I think that's the biggest drawback from the premium
mediocre is that it's sucking resources well.
It's an easy business model, right, because you don't
actually have to create it. It's easier to create the
perception of value than to actually create something
reliable. And I think we are at a place
technologically where innovationin the physical world is, is
(35:59):
just extremely difficult at thispoint and and extremely costly.
And whereas innovation and software is, comparatively
speaking, relatively cheap and you can also package it in a way
that feels like, you know, it's new and innovative and like, oh,
here we'll put this bell and whistle on it.
And you know, it's basically thesame meditation app you've had
20 times, but this one feels different.
(36:21):
And, and it's a premium, mediocre product and it probably
makes a couple $1,000,000. So such is life.
It is. I get that.
I don't know. I'm grumpy about it though.
You grumpy? No.
All right, we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you
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you'll thank me later. All right, we're back with our
premium mediocre podcast. We are what?
(38:09):
What's the what's our premium mediocre question of the day
Drew this? Is a premium mediocre question
for sure. Came in through YouTube as well.
If everything we chase like money, a partner of fame has
benefits and cost attached to it, why chase anything at all?
It's. It's kind of a bullshit
question, but I think it's when we do need to answer, yeah.
(38:30):
I mean, I get it. I mean, it, it, so this is
something that I, I, I like to think of as the nihilist
paradox, which is not caring about anything is still caring
about something. OK, Not chasing anything is
chasing something and you can't really escape that.
And so my, my answer to this question is like, yes, there are
(38:52):
costs and benefits to pursuing anything in life.
There's also costs and benefits than not pursuing anything in
life. So no matter where you go, their
costs and benefits, that's just life.
You can't escape it. It is the fabric of our
experienced existence. So you might as well pick
(39:12):
something, right? Pick something that you think
the benefits outweigh the costs.And, you know, it's fun to get
all philosophical and try to, like, find a loophole here or
there, but it, it doesn't reallywork.
Yeah. Yeah, the drum, the drum you
beat onto is you're always goingto have pain.
Everything there's, there's, there's an associated suckage
(39:32):
that comes with everything, everything.
Sitting around at home. You've you've said this before,
sitting around at home doing nothing, like you said, why
tried anything? Well, that has cost to it.
That's real cost. You're going to be in a lot of
psychological pain from that andphysical pain and your health is
going to deteriorate. Working out at the gym, though,
and eating right, that sucks too.
Sometimes being lazy sucks. Working hard sucks.
(39:55):
Being healthy sucks, being unhealthy sucks.
Like just choose the suck you want to have, there's better.
Forms of suckage though, right? Choose.
The choose the suck that you either think is worth it or you
enjoy having because there is some suckage that you actually
do enjoy having. Like there's some one of the
ways I used to frame this question back in the day was
(40:16):
what kind of masochist are you? Right?
Because there's like every everybody has something in their
life that they kind of enjoy thethe pain of it.
They kind of enjoy the struggle.Yeah.
And no matter what it is like, you have to figure out, figure
it out and then try to lean intoit 'cause that's where your
advantage is going to be. Like, what's the thing that most
(40:36):
people can't bear? But you don't mind so much?
Follow that right. Do you think to that this kind
of modern form of nihilism that we do see in a lot of places, is
that also like its own form? It, it is its own form of
avoidance too, right? Like we've just talked about
earlier, Absolutely. This is also a form of
(40:58):
avoidance. Oh, nothing matters.
So I don't have to try. Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. It it's an excuse.
It's a very philosophical excuse, you know, and it it
makes. You feel smart.
It makes you feel very. Smart and IT.
Makes you feel like nothing matters.
Like you see see something that nobody else sees.
But here's here's The thing is, is if, if, if nothing matters,
(41:19):
so why do do anything? You could also say nothing
matters, so why not do anything like if nothing matters, do
everything, do everything like go, go accomplish all the things
that you want to accomplish. Like go take all the risks, try
all the things, build the stuff,talk to the people like there's
no reason not to either. So you have no excuse.
(41:42):
An idea I'm playing with that I'd like to bring up at some
point in the in the near future probably too.
We've talked a lot about how a lot of times we over index on
happiness, right? And so a lot of people will
realize that they're like, OK, I'm trying too hard to be happy,
let's go for meaning instead. And then you can like over index
(42:02):
on that too. And like I heard it recently put
this way that, you know, a lot of people, what we end up doing
is we look for the meaning and fulfilment during the week and
then we look for happiness on the weekends.
And it's just, there's, there's no balance to even be struck
there because it's not the rightformula or question even that
we're asking. Are we over indexing on meeting
(42:24):
in a lot of ways too? I I feel like we are.
I feel like is it? Possible to over index on
meeting? Yeah, going back.
To like the premium mediocre thing is meeting like a premium
mediocre similar. To similar to happiness, it
probably comes down to where you're finding it, right?
Like happiness itself is great, but you can find it in a lot of
(42:48):
really terrible ways. And so pursuing happiness for
its own sake is is is not that'snot the goal and it shouldn't be
the goal. And I think you could probably
make the same argument about meaning, like if, like you can
derive meaning in your life by, I don't know, compulsively
posting photos and videos of yourself on Instagram,
especially during concerts when you're standing next to fucking
(43:10):
me, right? Like if that's where you're
getting your meaning in your life, like that's not a really
effective way of doing it. And it's, again, similar to
happiness. Some ways of pursuing happiness
are more sustainable. They're more healthy, They have
less social consequences. Same thing is true with meaning.
There are ways to pursue meaningthat are not sustainable.
(43:30):
They're very short lived, they have negative externalities and
and they, they, they put you on a treadmill.
So I think if, if anything, whatpremium mediocre is pointing out
is that marketers have found a way to give us little bite sized
pieces of meaning in very superficial ways.
And that by itself can become its own kind of addiction,
(43:54):
right? Like you, you feel like you need
to be like part of the cool thing and try the new product
then. Oh, this brand's hot right now.
And so it's, it's like you get that's becomes another
treadmill. So yeah, my answer to you is
yes, I do think you can over index for meaning.
But again, it's, it's, it's not like it's not a question of too
much meaning or too little meaning or too much happiness,
(44:15):
too little. It's like, where are you
choosing to get it? Where are you finding it?
I would agree with that tune. In next week, be sure to to
subscribe to the podcast. If you want to submit a
question, you can e-mail us at podcast markmanson.net.
Join the newsletter and go to markmanson.net/newsletter.
Send it out every Monday. It's free, free advice every
Monday. It's like could be life changing
5. Minutes at a time, too.
(44:36):
Seriously. Take 5 minutes to read.
We have had, I think over 12,000breakthroughs from the
newsletter. So next one could be you.
Check out our premium mediocre newsletter.
This is just going to go all day.
I'm just going to everything. I'm just going to put premium
mediocre in front of everything.That's all folks.
Thanks for tuning in. We will see you next week.
(44:56):
The subtle Art I'm not giving a fuck podcast is produced by Drew
Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura.
Jessica Choi is our videographerand sound engineer.
Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
I've got a theory drew and it itstarts with music, but I think
it kind of explains everything. Everything.
Everything ever. OK, not everything, but most a
lot of things. Bear with me.
We. We haven't got a brilliant or
bullshit yet. We just started.
Just started. Just started It's the Subtle Art
of Not Giving a Fuck podcast with your host Mark Manson.
(00:25):
I've actually, I've gone to a number of concerts recently.
One of them was a metal show. So I'm a big fan of a band
called Lamb of God. Shout out to Randy, the lead
singer. He's a fan of mine.
I'm a fan of his. He was cool enough to invite me
out to his show, got to hang outwith him and everything.
It was fun. You know, I was a big metal head
when I was young and it was interesting going back I, I
(00:46):
hadn't been to a metal show in probably at least 6-7 years and
it was interesting going to a metal show again.
I'm in my 40s. Most of the audience was in
their 40s, some in their 50's. The bands were all in their 40s
and 50s. Everybody was middle-aged.
Everybody looked like they you could probably catch them
(01:06):
driving a minivan and taking their kids to soccer practice
during the week. And it was really interesting
because I had a similar experience.
I went to an electronic show, maybe two or three weeks later,
same thing. I, it's funny that one I went to
and I was a little bit insecure.I was like, it's going to be a
bunch of kids on Molly and shit and like, I'm probably too old
(01:28):
for this. Nope.
Sure enough, like half the audience was probably at least
my age and and they seem to be aging up.
So here's the theory. I I think of it as the
jazzification of everything. The.
Jazzification of everything and hear me out here.
OK, so when we were young, jazz was lame, and I didn't really
(01:54):
develop an appreciation for jazzmusic until I went to music
school and I was forced to studyit.
And then once I started studyingit, I realized like, oh, this is
really intricate and cool and creative and there's all this
cool stuff going on. What I also learned at music
school is that jazz was cool as fuck in the 40s and 50s,
thirties, 40s and. 50s OK, yeah,yeah.
In fact, fun fact, the word coolcomes from jazz.
(02:19):
Yeah, it's the invention of cool.
There's actually a Miles Davis album called The Birth of Cool.
Anyway, sidebar, Being a jazz fan as a young person in the
2000s, it was incredibly lonely and isolating.
I would go to jazz shows. First of all, they're in tiny
clubs that held like maybe 50-60people.
(02:39):
And it would be like me, two other music dorks, and then like
a bunch of 60 and 70 year olds. And it was just like, it was
sad, especially because the musicians were some of the best
musicians I'd ever seen in my life.
And it, it, it was this weird thing where like, OK, it had its
cultural moment. And then rock happened and
television happened and pop happened and, and, and you know,
(03:03):
the mainstream culture just passed it by and kind of left it
alone. But there was this very intense
cult following this, this group of people that grew up with it
and they never left it. And they just loved it forever.
And at the metal show I was like, wow, metal is becoming
like jazz. It's becoming the next jazz,
(03:23):
right? And then I went to the
electronic show and I was like, electronic feels like it's kind
of becoming the next jazz. And then I started thinking
about every show I've been to and everything I've like, not
just music wise, but like the video games that I'm into or
the, you know, the movies and TVshows that I'm into, like every
(03:47):
form of media and entertainment.There is a small group of super
mega popular hits, right? You have like the Taylor Swift
and the Mario and Fortnite and you know, the, the big Marvel
movie or whatever, but everything else is like jazz.
(04:09):
Everything else is a small subculture of highly dedicated
fans. Unlike in the 20th century
where, you know, everything was a monoculture.
There was everybody's watching the same 5 channels.
So it was like, you know, in the70s disco was in and then in the
80s disco's out. Now everybody's into rock and
glam, you know, and then by the 90s glam is out and everybody's
(04:31):
in the alternative and everybodywould kind of just jump ship to
the next thing over and over. We don't have a monoculture
anymore. So now everybody has their own
little jazz that they're into almost exclusively from
everybody else. And it's their little
subculture. And and you age together, right?
Like I was a metal fan when I was 20, I went and saw Lamb of
(04:55):
God. Now I'm 40, I went and saw Lamb
of God. If they're still playing when
I'm 60, I'll probably go see Lamb of God, right?
Like it's the we age through together, the artists age with
the fans and and it's, it's a completely different dynamic.
It's like a balkanization of culture.
Yeah, you, you saw this too. Like in the 2000s, when nerd
(05:18):
culture kind of started to take over, too.
And there was you, you talked about this with David Brooks a
little bit, the atomization of culture that we have.
And I think is that part of it, do you think?
I think that's part of it and I think there is.
So there's two dynamics that arereally significant.
One is, is the atomization. So it's like everybody finds
their own little subculture and they're like niche, niche, niche
thing that they're like really into and they've got this little
(05:39):
community online that they interact with.
But the other thing that's changed is that you age through
life with that culture. Again, it's it's not like you
change, change out for the new fashion and the new music every
five or six years. It's you're.
Stuck in it. Yeah, it's like, it's like the
band you were into in 2010 you're still into in 2025 and
(06:00):
you're going to be into them when in 2040.
And like, like I'm noticing thiswith our audience too, right?
Like it's, it's when I started out, my audience was around my
age. They're in their 20s and early
30s now. My audience is in their 30s and
40s. Like we're aging up together.
And the same way my interest change over time, their interest
change over time. And we we just kind of grow
(06:22):
together. And when I think about my
favorite music, my favorite art,my favorite video games, my
favorite like. Movies or whatever.
Yeah, film makers, it's similar,you know, it's like we age and
develop together. I don't find myself jumping
ship. I don't find myself being like,
oh, well, I was really into Nintendo five years ago, but now
(06:42):
I'm into Fortnite stuff. Right.
Like it's, it's, it's like, no, you the thing I was into when I
was 15, I'm like still into now.And it just has evolved with me
over time. That what what explains that?
That is weird. I think it's.
Is it the media landscape? I mean, that's obviously a big
part of it. I think so.
(07:03):
I think it's there's no monoculture.
So I think there's two things simultaneously. 1 is, is that we
tend to whatever we like when we're like say 18 to 25, we tend
that just kind of like seems to cement itself in us for the rest
of our lives. That's part of it.
The other part is the media landscape is personalized.
So it's like everything is algorithmic.
(07:24):
Everything is designed to like, if you like metal music, here's
more metal music and if you likeshooter games, here's another
shooter game. And it, it's like people don't
really because there's just an abundance of everything.
Nobody ever. There's no scarcity driving you
to go find a new thing. Yeah, yeah.
Is that crazy? No, I, I think I've seen it too.
(07:46):
I've also seen it like if I lookat people who are slightly older
than me as well and I see them, you know, there's some of them
who look like they're dressed upgoing to a metal concert all the
time or they're dressed up like they're going to see, I don't
know, in a Lil affair or something like whatever they
were listening to back then. I don't know.
So I, I think I've seen this as well.
(08:06):
I haven't really put the put a name on it like you have here
though. I think the the jazzification of
everything. The jazzification.
Of such a terrible name. It is.
It's terrible, but. We'll work on that.
We'll work on that one. But I think it, it, there's a,
as with everything, there's a cost and benefit to everything,
right? So the benefit is, is that you
get to grow and evolve and age with your favorite media and art
(08:32):
and entertainment. The cost is that we lose that
monoculture, right? Like we, we miss those cultural
moments that it feels like everybody's a part of.
Like when you and I were kids, you know, Michael Jackson would
do the Super Bowl and it was like everybody was paying
attention. Everybody, everybody cared.
Everybody was talking about it. Today, there's not really
(08:54):
anything like that. Like the closest thing is maybe
Taylor Swift the past couple years.
But it's like, even though I know her numbers are higher
than, you know, the numbers of other artists from 30-40 years
ago, but the cultural impact doesn't feel the same.
Like it doesn't feel inescapablethe way you know somebody like
(09:16):
Michael Jackson or Michael Jordan was in in the 80s or 90s
because you literally only had like 5 TV channels.
You couldn't. Be completely oblivious to it
like you could today there. There was nothing else to watch
or do, so you had to watch and do the same things that
everybody else was watching and doing, which had a side benefit
of making it feel like we were all participating in the same
(09:37):
cultural moment. Cohesiveness to the culture all.
The time. Yeah, I.
Do agree that that's a there the, the, the benefit side of
that though, is there are more people who feel at least
somewhat included or, or seen, you know, in some ways like, oh,
I can go find this, this scene of mine and and be in on that at
the cost of a larger cultural cohesion.
Yeah. Second thought, here's my fuck
(09:58):
for the week. The new bunch of concerts
recently, the fucking phones, dude.
It, it kills me. It kills me.
Here's the thing I noticed, and this is what I want to talk
about. I kind of understand because I
do it a little bit, but I'm alsojust confused.
It was very interesting going toa a bunch of different shows and
(10:19):
like, like most concerts, you know, there's a couple openers
and then there's like the, the kind of the sub headline act and
then there's the big headline act act.
And it it was interesting watching the people around me,
of course, fucking phones in theair all the time.
So fucking annoying it. Was really interesting because
in in the in the Super early opening acts that nobody had
(10:42):
ever heard of them you didn't see any phones no phones.
Everybody's actually watching the show and thinking about
like, that part was kind of good, or like this song's OK.
You know? As the axe got a little bit more
popular and people got more intoit, the phone started coming out
more. And then by the time you got to
the main headlining act, people just had phones in the air the
(11:03):
entire time. When I went to the Electronics
Show, the headliner was like a abig name DJ and there was a guy
next to me who at some point I actually thought he was live
streaming the show because his phone was out for a good 30 or
40 minutes straight. And finally, like I kind of like
craned my neck back and looked and it's like, no, he was
(11:24):
recording just a video. Just a video.
I'm like, dude, you're literallyrecording half the show.
And to me there's like there's something paradoxical there of
the more meaningful the moment, the more people remove
themselves from the present moment by pulling out their
phones. Yes, which kind of makes no
(11:44):
sense. But then it's like also very
like every concert or event I goto, this is what happens.
The more meaningful the moment, the more everybody just whips
out their phone and turns into alittle filmmaker and removes
themselves from experiencing themoment.
Explain this to me. Help me out.
You're true. I don't, I, I, I don't, I, I
don't use my phone in that way, but I do experience this in a
(12:06):
some different ways. Just very recently, I was
standing on my back porch and I have this, there's like this
beautiful little hay field across the street from my house
and like a couple little mountains and stuff.
And it's to the West. So I get really pretty sunsets,
you know, And I kind of glanced down.
I was like, oh, it's really pretty sunset tonight.
Immediately grab my phone, walk out on my back porch, take a
picture, look at it. It sucks because it's the the
(12:28):
picture. You know, and I.
Just turn around and I walk inside and then and I got inside
and I'm like, what the fuck am I?
I'm going to go enjoy the sunsetfor real.
And so I, you know, go back out and I enjoyed the sunset as it,
as, as God intended it, as it were.
And so I mean, I, that's a smalllittle sliver of the same type
(12:48):
of thing, but it is you, you, you look at that screen after,
you know, whatever it is, like aconcert or a sunset or whatever
it is, and it's just never as good.
Do you put the phone right back in your pocket and just walk
away or do you sit down and and enjoy?
That's that's what I've trained myself to do is be like, ah, put
the phone away and just enjoy this so.
I thought about, so I, I actually thought really hard
(13:08):
about this because I do occasionally pull out my phone.
Like for instance, when the headline act comes out and they
like start playing their big song or whatever and the crowd's
going crazy. Like, yeah, I'll pull out my
phone for 1520 seconds. Be like, oh cool, let's capture
this moment here. And I, I asked myself why like
what is the impetus there? Like what, why what it what
(13:30):
scratch am I what itch am I scratching?
And the conclusion I came to is that because it feels like a
special moment, I want to be able to remember it and relive
it at some future point. And my sense is that it's really
all I want to do is just captureenough that I remember how it
(13:52):
feels to be here. And I can get that in 20 or 30
seconds. Because in the past 20 or 30
seconds, I'm now removing myselffrom experiencing the moment in
the 1st place, right? So now I don't have a memory.
If I like sit there and record for 30 minutes, like the guy
next to me, I no longer have a memory of the moment because I
spent the whole time recording. But then then I asked myself,
(14:14):
I'm like, OK, let's think about this for a second.
Out of all the concerts, all thefucking sunsets, like how many
times have I ever gone back through my phone and actually
looked at this stuff and and satthere and been like, wow,
remember that show? That was such a cool show.
I never do that ever. Like maybe once every three
(14:36):
years I'll go back and look at ahandful of things, but it's it's
very rare. So I don't know, it just seems
like the effort reward is completely off here and well, do
you think? Do you think that people who are
pulling their phones at concerts, like, do you think
they're thinking that same thing?
Like I want to remember this later, 'cause I I'm not sure
that's what it is. I.
(14:56):
So. I think it's I want to post
this, I want to post this on social media so I can be a part
of this jazzification of everything and show that I'm a
part of it. Is that that's?
A huge part of it so I I it's funny because I spent like half
of this show just sitting there and like watching people trying
to figure out why they were doing this they.
(15:18):
Weren't watching the concert in the moment, which is why you
were just like I was ignoring. The concert so I could figure
out why the fuck these people were recording the concert.
There was a lot of Instagram going on for sure.
There was a lot of that going on.
There was also one thing I noticed too, is that drunk
people were doing it a lot more,which is interesting.
Yeah, I noticed the drunk peoplelike the selfie thing, The.
(15:42):
Oh, my God, this is the best moment of my life.
Like there drunk people. The phones were out constantly,
constantly. There's a group of drunk girls
in front of us. And it would like the amount of
selfies. It it reached hilarious
proportions. It was like, I don't think you
guys got enough. I think.
I think you got to get another one.
Let's go for #81 All right, Yeah.
(16:05):
I think there is some sort of social signaling thing going on
with social media. But then it's like, I think
about the guy recording like 30 minutes.
I couldn't help but think it wasalmost like that.
This is going to sound really condescending, but it it with
some of the people, it felt likethey were afraid to just fully
(16:25):
enjoy it. Like it was a way for them to
feel like they were enjoying it without having to expose
themselves emotionally, without having to like lose themselves
and and lose control and show like how excited or ecstatic
they were. It was a way to but.
(16:45):
They don't have to acknowledge the the the temperamental nature
of it. You don't have to acknowledge
the fleeting nature that this isn't going to be here in a
second. And so I need to somehow
reconcile that they're. Definitely.
Like I couldn't help when I was watching people, I couldn't help
but feel like there was like some sort of weird avoidance
thing going on, which again, strikes me as so strange.
(17:08):
Like you spend fucking hundreds of dollars, you get nice tickets
to a show and then you just spend half of it looking through
your phone. Well, we.
Just had I mean, we had near I all on recently and he kind, you
know, he brought up the term which other people use as well
the the digital pacifier. So to me, this is, this is, this
is the concerning thing, right? It's like it's never been easier
(17:28):
than ever before to alleviate discomfort.
It's always in our pocket. And and that that alleviation of
discomfort does not will reiterate it.
It does not just happen in painful moments.
It happens in joyous moments as well, which is, which is
arguably an even bigger problem.Also the jazzification of
everything is in its own way, a,an avoidance of discomfort,
(17:52):
right? Like it's there was and, and now
maybe I'm just waxing nostalgic,but I, I do remember pre social
media, pre mobile phone, there was when the culture shifted,
when it's like the new trendy music changed.
It kind of forced you of like, OK, well, this is the new thing.
So you need to like start getting used to it and learning
(18:15):
it and understanding it and at least decide if you like it or
not. And I think as long as we all
live in our own little kind of cultural bubbles with the thing
that we've loved for decades andwe're going to love for the next
few decades, and we don't ever have to like change our minds
about it or try new things. We kind of lose that cultural
(18:36):
discomfort that that like being nudged or or pushed into
experiencing different things or, or different, different
stuff that maybe isn't that we don't necessarily like the first
time. I.
See. So you're saying we we age with
that as just that this is our comfort lane here, that we're
going to age along the this thissubculture?
(18:57):
Yeah. Like I, I don't feel like I
remember when I was again in music school, right?
Like I had no interest in jazz and then I was forced to
understand jazz from an artisticperspective and I started really
appreciating it. I had very similar experience
with the with hip hop at a certain point and I had a
similar experience with electronic music at a certain
(19:19):
point. These days, like I don't, not
only do I not feel compelled to like go try to understand like a
different sub genre of music, I just, I don't even get exposed
to other sub genres. Like I don't even know if there
are other sub genres of music being invented anymore.
Like I haven't heard anything new in at least 10 years.
Like I, I can't remember the last time I heard something.
(19:41):
I'm like, wow, that's different and.
There's a good chance it's because you've been siloed off
into this metal, EDM it. Jazz, this weird, this weird
melting pot taste, but like, yeah, part of it is being
siloed. And then I think part of it is
that because everybody's siloed,the the game for the artists,
(20:02):
for the creatives is to milk thelong term relationship and not
innovate. And not do the new thing, not be
the new person, right? Not invent the new sub genre.
It's capture people when they'reyoung and then just age out with
them, Yeah. Over.
Decades and decades. Yeah, I think you see that.
(20:23):
I mean, you've kind of always seen that, I guess with certain
bands, maybe not whole entire genres or anything like that,
but you've seen that, you know, there's always that tension
between doing what's worked for me creatively versus.
Trying. Something new and.
And the kind of destruction, destructive nature of
creativity. Yeah, there's always been that,
(20:44):
right? Yeah.
I don't know. Anyway, I don't know where we
land this this. This was weird.
This was weird. This was weird.
I like it well. We'll be back with another weird
theory right after these messages.
(21:05):
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solve that giraffe mystery. All right, we're back.
I'm excited for this. Brilliant or bullshit.
This. This was one that I put on the
docket. This is an old, old theory.
Well, it's not that old, but probably 10 years old or
something. Internet.
Age. It's old, yeah.
By Internet years it's quite old.
Old blog called Ribbon Farm had a an article about a concept
(22:34):
called premium mediocre. And ever since I read about it,
it's one of those ideas, it's just stuck in my head ever
since. And there's probably, I probably
never go more than six months without something happening in
my life. I'm like, oh, this is totally
premium mediocre. Yeah.
(22:54):
So give us a brief synopsis of what it is.
Yeah. So Venkatesh Rao, he, he wrote
the I think that's how you say his name, right?
Venkatesh Rao is it Rao? Yeah.
I think that's how he says damn.Yeah.
He wrote this blog post in 2017 called premium mediocre.
What Premium mediocre is it describes product, services and
lifestyles that appear exclusivebut offer only superficial
(23:16):
luxury or quality. OK, so it has an irrelevant
touch of premium that doesn't really improve the essential
mediocrity of the experience or or product.
Let me give you some examples. OK, Something that he he used
anyway. Cupcakes and frozen yogurt like
OK. Truffle oil that's not made from
real truffle, OK. That's a great example.
(23:36):
That's a great example. He he also uses avocado toast
that that's a special case, but it's still premium mediocre
certain types of lettuce. I thought that was great.
Like, you know, it's obviously iceberg lettuce is not premium
mediocre, but like, what's the leafy green?
I'm blanking completely on it. I have no idea.
(23:57):
Oh. That what's that one kind of
lettuce? Yeah.
You don't eat vegetables too? I don't cook my own food.
Certain types of lettuce, yeah, K pop popularity in France, you
know that the list goes on and on.
You spot these things once you start, once you understand what
premium mediocre is, you spot. Them the thing I always think of
is the pumpkin spice latte pumpkin.
(24:18):
Spice lattes because. It's it's like seasonal.
It's exclusive. It's only available for a
limited time and it's just a fucking commodity.
Like fast casual dining, like a lot of, you know, maybe Chipotle
was like an early version of it,you know, But now I don't know
if you ever go to Cava, like, oh, I love Cava.
It's like this big chain restaurant that's supposed to be
(24:39):
healthy Mediterranean. It's premium it.
Goes on and on and on. So, but it's a fun concept.
He plays with it for a little while, but I love how the the
the philosophical depth that he goes with it is really
interesting because. Yeah.
His. Explanation is, is actually
really interesting, which is that, you know, 100 years ago,
200 years ago, access to things was scarce, right?
(25:00):
And so the way you improve society and the way you sold
things and made money is that you just got access to things.
It's like, OK, we'll we'll go dig up the oil and we'll sell it
to you or we'll go, you know, mine the ore and we'll sell it
to you or we'll grow the lettuceand sell it to you.
At a certain point there, there became an abundance of stuff.
And I think his argument is thatas the first generation that
(25:24):
grew up with an abundance of stuff, that the first
generation, the millennials in particular, who were no longer
impressed by the simple access to scarce things because there
is no scarce thing, millennials demanded something else that
felt scarce and special. And So what companies started
doing is they started essentially putting like
(25:47):
luxurious packaging on boring commodities.
Mediocre products, right? So.
It's instead of just being a coffee with a little bit of
pumpkin spice in it, it's a exclusive seasonal pumpkin spice
latte with an extra dollop of, you know, serve the way you want
it. You know, because you deserve a
special morning at Starbucks. Like all, it's got a little
heart drawn names written on thecup like it is the most premium
(26:11):
mediocre thing in the world. It feels it is completely
designed to to feel like a special exclusive experience.
And it's just that it's a cup ofmediocre coffee.
And when you look around, you see this all over the place.
You see it at sporting events, you see it at, you know, VIP
(26:32):
access to certain concert venues.
You see it, you know, being a a premium.
Economy seat on a plane premium economy.
That's a perfect example that isthe most.
Premium mediocre seat on an airplane.
You can you see it in subscriptions?
The the things like magazines, you know, you can get the like
(26:52):
the digital plus, which is essentially you're just paying
more to have a piece of paper sent to your door.
Like it's the same thing you would have paid for anyway.
But like, you know, they, they just add a A+ at the end of it
and send you a bunch of emails and you're supposedly like
having a, a more premium experience.
It's, I think it's, I think it, it is both the cause and the
(27:17):
effect of a lot of the jadednessof the 21st century.
It is the effect in the sense that humans crave scarcity
because our perception of value is based on scarcity, of course.
And so when most things in the world are no longer scarce,
marketers, business people, theyhave to create a perception of
(27:39):
scarcity. The problem is, is that people
aren't dumb. And on some level, you know,
that the pumpkin spice latte or the avocado toast or the digital
Plus subscription to The New York Times, there's nothing
premium about it. It's like the same fucking
thing, just with a fancy name put on it.
And you, there's a certain amount of cynicism that
(28:02):
develops. And he talks about that as well,
that there's just like a deep, the, the, the most defining
quality of the millennial generation is their cynicism.
And, and it's like it, a lot of it is generated from this sense
that everything is a little bit of a lie, like nothing is
actually what it's was promised,right?
We know it, but we're also playing along at the same time
(28:23):
too. Yeah, he points that out as
well. And it's funny there.
I mean, there again, the list goes on and on the premium
mediocre vacations, it was funny.
I was just in Spain on vacation and there are whole sections of
Madrid and Barcelona and Ibiza that it it.
You might as well just put on Google Maps, like circle it and
(28:45):
put on like premium mediocre tourist area.
It's like everything is designedto feel exclusive and special
and cater just to you, and it's like people are just herded
through like cattle and things. Premium mediocre things tend to
be overpriced. I think that's another cause of
the premium. Price on it?
(29:06):
Yeah, Yeah. Like, there's this, there's a
disconnect between the promised value and the actual value,
Right. And I don't know, I just, it's
one of those things. I remember reading the article.
I loved it. I was like, wow, that's so
clever. And then as the years go on, I
just keep seeing it more and more and more.
I would argue we have premium mediocre politicians.
(29:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you again back, if you go
back and watch debates of like, I don't know, Reagan and Bush or
Clinton and Bush, you see very smart, educated, well rehearsed
men who clearly studied and thought deeply about policy and
(29:50):
can explain their policy positions and argue against each
other's policy positions coherently.
If you look at our politicians today, it's just a fucking word
salad of emotions and essentially just telling us that
we're special and they're special and we're all going to
be special together 'cause we'reall premium mediocre together.
(30:12):
Yeah. It just, it feels, it feels ever
present. Yeah.
I would argue most media like Netflix, most Netflix shows are
premium mediocre. They are the same story,
regurgitated and new packaging that feels exclusive and special
and unique, but it's really justcliffhangers and hooks and
audience manipulation and that. Movie theaters, think about
(30:35):
that. Modern movie theaters, Yeah,
like they now they have these like fancy seats and which.
Aren't really that fancy? They're not.
That fancy, but you're paying, you're paying.
Like $30.00 for it. Yeah, yeah, definitely premium
mediocre. We live in a premium mediocre
world and it's yeah. And I'm a premium mediocre girl.
(30:57):
In a put that on my. Tombster, Old OH.
God, Venkatesh, though, he, he, he does connect this to like the
larger kind of economic forces that are behind it.
So he says premium mediocre is it's aspirational to some
extent. The two, even though we know
it's mediocre, even though we'restill participating in it and
playing the game, it's aspirational.
(31:19):
And we're trying to at least signal that, hey, we're trying
like we might not be able to buya house right now, but I can
afford a nice pumpkin spice latte and an avocado toast.
But he also kind of windows thatdown to a, a certain
demographic, what he calls Maya Millennial.
OK, He's got Maya Millennial, Molly Millennial, Max
Millennial. They're kind of just three
(31:40):
different segments. And Maya millennial is all about
the premium mediocre. She knows she's, she's indulging
in it and it's OK because one day she's going to have the
real, the real premium, right? Whereas like a Maya millennial,
who he calls kind of like the artist wing of our, our
generation and economic bloc, I guess, is kind of resigned to
the fact that they're never going to be, you know, rich.
(32:01):
So they're just going to, they're going to work at the,
the coffee shop or art shop or whatever it is and, and do their
thing. Max Millennial, on the other
hand, he went to Silicon Valley and he's trying to make it and
he's making premium mediocre products is what he's doing.
Backpacks, you know, or some piece of software that's
supposed to, you know, whatever it is in some sort of premium
(32:21):
mediocre packaging. I.
Think I, and I think he talks about this too.
I think that the the key characteristic of a successful
premium mediocre product or service is that it effectively
kind of dupes you like it signals the people that you are
aspiring. You know, I think we work as a
(32:41):
great example, especially since what's happened in the last five
years. We work as it's literally just
deaths yeah, in in overpriced real estate, right, like it did.
There was like nothing rational about that business model and or
new or new and and everything that was promised and packaged
around it like like you're not just joining a Co working space,
you're joining a community and we're like striving together and
(33:05):
we're going to build a new worldand blah blah blah.
It it, it's it's like the core of premium mediocre, but there
was a hot minute, you know, probably three to five years
where it was cool to be part of a Wework, you know, and it's it
like signified of like, oh man, he he's got like a Wework desk.
Like he's, he's working his ass off, he's grinding on weekends.
(33:26):
You know, like it signals to people like you, you're on your
way up. But it ultimately it's, it's a
little bit of an empty lie. He's not trashing premium
mediocre necessarily. Obviously there's problems with
it, but he he counts himself among the people who partake in
premium mediocre. Of course, do I do all the time
too. And you know, there's a
difference between premium mediocre and middle class fancy
(33:48):
that he talks about. And there's, you know, all of us
have, you're going back to we have these arcs that we kind of
get into, these lanes we get into.
And I don't think he's really necessarily trashing it.
He's just pointing it out and observing it and that there's
larger cultural forces around it.
That's his point. Absolutely.
And I, I think it's, it's like many things, it's, it's not the
(34:09):
issue, It's the aware, the lack of awareness around it that's
the issue. Like if you aren't aware of the
game you're playing, yes, then it, the game is a problem.
But if you're aware of the game,then it's and you like playing
it, then play it. You know what?
I think is a problem is the focus on creating all these
products or services that are premium media.
OK, so go back to the Max Millennial, you know, wants to
(34:31):
be an entrepreneur and so and, and thinks he wants to take over
the world by making a, a whatever it is, a back back
company or whatever it is. And I saw this, I think about
this time. So this was 2017, I think when
this first post on this, he's posted about a lot, but he
started in 2017 posting about it.
And about that time I remember thinking, God, are we going to
make anything useful? Like, like, you know, there's
(34:52):
all these apps were coming out, all these like weird products
that were solving a very like minor problem in our lives or
something that that we're going after some minor convenience.
And that was kind of a premium mediocre thing.
You still see it today, though, too.
You see it with can we stop withthe fucking headsets like and
(35:12):
the glasses? I was.
Just thinking about the vision Pro vision.
Pro and the meta, whatever they call it.
What's the meta of? The what do they call it?
It starts with an O, Yeah. It starts with an O Jesus,
whatever it's fucking called. But then they just came out the
glasses too. You say you came out these like
nerdy looking glasses like theseare high tech cool.
I'm like, nobody wants this shit.
(35:34):
We want you to like solve some real fucking problems here.
And I think that's the biggest drawback from the premium
mediocre is that it's sucking resources well.
It's an easy business model, right, because you don't
actually have to create it. It's easier to create the
perception of value than to actually create something
reliable. And I think we are at a place
technologically where innovationin the physical world is, is
(35:59):
just extremely difficult at thispoint and and extremely costly.
And whereas innovation and software is, comparatively
speaking, relatively cheap and you can also package it in a way
that feels like, you know, it's new and innovative and like, oh,
here we'll put this bell and whistle on it.
And you know, it's basically thesame meditation app you've had
20 times, but this one feels different.
(36:21):
And, and it's a premium, mediocre product and it probably
makes a couple $1,000,000. So such is life.
It is. I get that.
I don't know. I'm grumpy about it though.
You grumpy? No.
All right, we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you
(36:41):
by Element. Now, electrolytes aren't just
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(37:24):
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you'll thank me later. All right, we're back with our
premium mediocre podcast. We are what?
(38:09):
What's the what's our premium mediocre question of the day
Drew this? Is a premium mediocre question
for sure. Came in through YouTube as well.
If everything we chase like money, a partner of fame has
benefits and cost attached to it, why chase anything at all?
It's. It's kind of a bullshit
question, but I think it's when we do need to answer, yeah.
(38:30):
I mean, I get it. I mean, it, it, so this is
something that I, I, I like to think of as the nihilist
paradox, which is not caring about anything is still caring
about something. OK, Not chasing anything is
chasing something and you can't really escape that.
And so my, my answer to this question is like, yes, there are
(38:52):
costs and benefits to pursuing anything in life.
There's also costs and benefits than not pursuing anything in
life. So no matter where you go, their
costs and benefits, that's just life.
You can't escape it. It is the fabric of our
experienced existence. So you might as well pick
(39:12):
something, right? Pick something that you think
the benefits outweigh the costs.And, you know, it's fun to get
all philosophical and try to, like, find a loophole here or
there, but it, it doesn't reallywork.
Yeah. Yeah, the drum, the drum you
beat onto is you're always goingto have pain.
Everything there's, there's, there's an associated suckage
(39:32):
that comes with everything, everything.
Sitting around at home. You've you've said this before,
sitting around at home doing nothing, like you said, why
tried anything? Well, that has cost to it.
That's real cost. You're going to be in a lot of
psychological pain from that andphysical pain and your health is
going to deteriorate. Working out at the gym, though,
and eating right, that sucks too.
Sometimes being lazy sucks. Working hard sucks.
(39:55):
Being healthy sucks, being unhealthy sucks.
Like just choose the suck you want to have, there's better.
Forms of suckage though, right? Choose.
The choose the suck that you either think is worth it or you
enjoy having because there is some suckage that you actually
do enjoy having. Like there's some one of the
ways I used to frame this question back in the day was
(40:16):
what kind of masochist are you? Right?
Because there's like every everybody has something in their
life that they kind of enjoy thethe pain of it.
They kind of enjoy the struggle.Yeah.
And no matter what it is like, you have to figure out, figure
it out and then try to lean intoit 'cause that's where your
advantage is going to be. Like, what's the thing that most
(40:36):
people can't bear? But you don't mind so much?
Follow that right. Do you think to that this kind
of modern form of nihilism that we do see in a lot of places, is
that also like its own form? It, it is its own form of
avoidance too, right? Like we've just talked about
earlier, Absolutely. This is also a form of
(40:58):
avoidance. Oh, nothing matters.
So I don't have to try. Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. It it's an excuse.
It's a very philosophical excuse, you know, and it it
makes. You feel smart.
It makes you feel very. Smart and IT.
Makes you feel like nothing matters.
Like you see see something that nobody else sees.
But here's here's The thing is, is if, if, if nothing matters,
(41:19):
so why do do anything? You could also say nothing
matters, so why not do anything like if nothing matters, do
everything, do everything like go, go accomplish all the things
that you want to accomplish. Like go take all the risks, try
all the things, build the stuff,talk to the people like there's
no reason not to either. So you have no excuse.
(41:42):
An idea I'm playing with that I'd like to bring up at some
point in the in the near future probably too.
We've talked a lot about how a lot of times we over index on
happiness, right? And so a lot of people will
realize that they're like, OK, I'm trying too hard to be happy,
let's go for meaning instead. And then you can like over index
(42:02):
on that too. And like I heard it recently put
this way that, you know, a lot of people, what we end up doing
is we look for the meaning and fulfilment during the week and
then we look for happiness on the weekends.
And it's just, there's, there's no balance to even be struck
there because it's not the rightformula or question even that
we're asking. Are we over indexing on meeting
(42:24):
in a lot of ways too? I I feel like we are.
I feel like is it? Possible to over index on
meeting? Yeah, going back.
To like the premium mediocre thing is meeting like a premium
mediocre similar. To similar to happiness, it
probably comes down to where you're finding it, right?
Like happiness itself is great, but you can find it in a lot of
(42:48):
really terrible ways. And so pursuing happiness for
its own sake is is is not that'snot the goal and it shouldn't be
the goal. And I think you could probably
make the same argument about meaning, like if, like you can
derive meaning in your life by, I don't know, compulsively
posting photos and videos of yourself on Instagram,
especially during concerts when you're standing next to fucking
(43:10):
me, right? Like if that's where you're
getting your meaning in your life, like that's not a really
effective way of doing it. And it's, again, similar to
happiness. Some ways of pursuing happiness
are more sustainable. They're more healthy, They have
less social consequences. Same thing is true with meaning.
There are ways to pursue meaningthat are not sustainable.
(43:30):
They're very short lived, they have negative externalities and
and they, they, they put you on a treadmill.
So I think if, if anything, whatpremium mediocre is pointing out
is that marketers have found a way to give us little bite sized
pieces of meaning in very superficial ways.
And that by itself can become its own kind of addiction,
(43:54):
right? Like you, you feel like you need
to be like part of the cool thing and try the new product
then. Oh, this brand's hot right now.
And so it's, it's like you get that's becomes another
treadmill. So yeah, my answer to you is
yes, I do think you can over index for meaning.
But again, it's, it's, it's not like it's not a question of too
much meaning or too little meaning or too much happiness,
(44:15):
too little. It's like, where are you
choosing to get it? Where are you finding it?
I would agree with that tune. In next week, be sure to to
subscribe to the podcast. If you want to submit a
question, you can e-mail us at podcast markmanson.net.
Join the newsletter and go to markmanson.net/newsletter.
Send it out every Monday. It's free, free advice every
Monday. It's like could be life changing
5. Minutes at a time, too.
(44:36):
Seriously. Take 5 minutes to read.
We have had, I think over 12,000breakthroughs from the
newsletter. So next one could be you.
Check out our premium mediocre newsletter.
This is just going to go all day.
I'm just going to everything. I'm just going to put premium
mediocre in front of everything.That's all folks.
Thanks for tuning in. We will see you next week.
(44:56):
The subtle Art I'm not giving a fuck podcast is produced by Drew
Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura.
Jessica Choi is our videographerand sound engineer.
Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
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